I will greatly miss the SD slot and headphone jack...

I don't want more cycles on a battery that isn't user serviceable

It seems unlikely that people will routinely charge their AirPods from their phone when they could just as easily use the same charger that they just charged up their phone with.

its like 30 minute job, maybe less for pros

One can charge a range of devices, including other iPads from a USB-C iPad. One can even change the charge direction between the two devices.

Charging on these devices is independent from data access. The user is prompted to allow data access which requires authorisation.

But I'll be carrying around a USB-A to Lightning cord when I'm traveling anyway, since hotels/airplanes/airports are still on USB-A.

EDIT: yep, per Ars Technica, you can now charge your Apple Watch or AirPods off the iPhone 15: https://live.arstechnica.com/apples-september-12-2023-wonder...

This is honestly a pretty great feature, and actually makes me more likely to buy an Apple Watch. I don't want to have to bring another charge cable with me, and now I wouldn't have to. I wonder what the charge speed is though — I wouldn't want to have to charge it overnight.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying, it took me a while to understand based on what they had said and what Ars reported. I can see that it's just the same as how you can plug any peripheral into an iPad and charge off its battery. Now you can do the same with iPhone...big deal.

Apple's page says this under the USB-C section:

>The new USB-C connector lets you charge your Mac or iPad with the same cable you use to charge iPhone 15. You can even use iPhone 15 to charge Apple Watch or AirPods. Bye-bye, cable clutter.

With a footnote that leads to this:

> The included USB‑C Charge Cable is compatible with AirPods Pro (2nd generation) with MagSafe Charging Case (USB‑C).

I wonder if they'll sell cases alone for existing AirPods.

Nevertheless still good that now only one cable is required - especially since the iPad and iMac use USB-C as-well.

Not sure what to do with the AirPods - hopefully the wireless charging directly from iPhone 15 will make it unnecessary to have to carry the cable for the pods.

Samsung did this already (branded as "PowerShare") so it's the year of iPhone catching up on charging features.

I am surprised apple hasn't included this ability yet. My pixel 6 pro also has this ability.

I was also really hoping for wireless "MagSafe-out" charging for the Apple Watch, which would come in very handy when traveling – often there's limited outlets on hotel nightstands, and sometimes I just forget the watch charger.

If I'm traveling with a computer too I use a 2x USB-C wall wart to fit everything in one plug. Not perfect, but beats the rat's nest of cables that it replaced.

Since the Qi charger isn't MagSafe it doesn't really work for topping up the phone from the battery on the go, so I often end up tossing a short Lightning cable in my bag anyway. Will be nice to have USB-C eventually and not worry about that (but I intend to drag this iPhone mini out for a good 5 years).

https://satechi.net/products/quatro-wireless-power-bank

I'm looking forward to the day when I need to pack only USB-C cables when we go on family vacation, but it's still going to be a couple of years until we replaced the last device with lightning port (especially iPads seem to last forever).

https://a.co/d/fxsaZ58

that's something i never cared about. whether i carry 1 usbc and 1 lightning or 2 usbc, it's still 2 cables.

Though I have to mention, you shouldn't really shop for cables when you're traveling and need a new one. First stop by the front desk, they usually have a huge pile of charging cables people have left behind.

And not all the offices are close to a shop selling those kind of things nor do these persons feel they might be better off going shopping for one directly instead of disrupting a non negligible amount of workers.

I don't even know why people have to charge their phone midday and can't wait. Even when I am going out and extending the night until dawn, I usually have battery left until I go to bed.

For instance, I'm happy that my new laptop can charge on usb-c, so now I don't need you bring a charger for my switch and a different one for my laptop. I just take the smallest one and charge my laptop and switch with it (but not at the same time). I'm happy to know that I will be able to ditch the lightning cable for my next apple smartphone and only keep a single cable for my three devices.

(Worry not though dear mr. Cook, I'll pass it down to one of my kids so the environment won't be hurting while the new toy shows me which gate my CO2-spewing flight departs from. ;))

If you have two different connectors you invariably need at least two proper cables.

Some people predicted that new iPhone will be completely portless and allow wireless charging only, just to not having to support USB-C out of spite.

I guess we'll need to wait a year or two more.

I'd never say never obviously but dropping ports entirely would have to be a terrible decision anytime soon. (And one wonders what assurances Apple has made to auto manufacturers adopting CarPlay.)

I think you meant brave decision.

One could always dream of head unit updates for wireless carplay support...

But according to some wireless carplay adapters do work quite well so that might be an option: https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/10/carplay-wireless-carplay-adap...

Apple could even release an official one.

Not that CarPlay is a necessity of life but glitchy CarPlay would be a pretty big negative for my experience with a vehicle.

Slow charging though... that seems orthogonal?

In my Fusion, I'm stuck using wired Android Auto, so I am unfortunately not able to use the 12V port for charging.

The adapter plugs in to the USB port for android auto and then offers up a wireless connection. Everything is automatic once set up.

The 2023 model had the entertainment system massively upgraded. Wireless CarPlay is seamless and fast. The wireless charging pad isn't amazing but it does the job just fine.

I love wireless CarPlay now. :)

https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/10/carplay-wireless-carplay-adap...

- Plugging the phone in is so easy.

- With Wireless Carplay presumbably I'd have to futz with the phone anyway if both of our phones are associated with the entertainment system

- I still have to take the phone out of my pocket to put it on the wireless charging pad. That is actually the hassle, not plugging the phone in

- If I don't care about charging my phone, I assume my phone is going to heat up in my pocket and drain the battery while I'm doing Wireless Carplay stuff

- A lot of my driving is short 10-15 min trips. Can put a pretty decent charge into my phone during that time with the wired connection. Not with inductive charging.

I suspect they have a few things to work out with regards to CarPlay wireless connection(s) before they could remove ports on the device, in addition to the other comments on this thread.

Maybe $199?

And for what benefit? That port is already water-proof.

Resistant.

I care. It's a safety / insurance feature.

I found it amusing that they tried to spin Magsafe as eco-friendly too... because, uh, you can't use leather cases anymore(?)

It would be very much Apple move to take something that wastes enormous amount of energy (given the number of people who have iPhones) and claim it is eco-friendly.

(1): I looked on Wikipedia for 30 seconds

Doubling that power use if everyone switched to low quality wireless charging (50%) would require another 5 gigawatts, or a few thousand more wind turbines.

Bigger than I thought in a worst case scenario, but still not too bad.

Especially if wireless charging prevents premature replacement by reducing port failure, as the embodied energy is estimated to to be the majority of the energy involved in the lifecycle of a smartphone.

Interesting. I wasn't aware this was a common problem? It's not something I'm used to hearing about as an Android user.

I'd be more interested in whether Magsafe or USB-C wears the battery out sooner.

Not huge amount of energy, but not negligible either.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agua_Caliente_Solar_Project

edit: I see someone else did the math as well.

That works out to $2 per iPhone to build power plants to charge the iphone every day for it's an entire life. Not bad for a device that costs hundreds of dollars.

I suspect lots of people who would be happy to shoot on a phone have upgraded to blackmagic specifically because you can just swap the card and keep rolling.

It just doesn’t make sense to go wireless only, like even as the presentation showed, there are great usecases for wires, like moving data fast to external storage during video recording. Also, charging is much much slower without a cable, and then we didn’t even talk about debuggibility, servicibility, for no reason whatsoever. Apple is not hurt by usb-c, they have been using it for many years on their own dime. They just waited around so if anyone takes offense (see other commenters) they can freely point their fingers at the EU. They only were waiting around for a scapegoat.

You're right that USB-C can transfer data very fast in comparison to Lightning, but most casual users likely don't do this at all. They primarily use cloud backup solutions. This is somewhat supported by the fact that data transfer speeds on non pro models of the 15 are the same as Lightning.

Additionally, Apple had much more control over who could legally produce cables and accessories with Lightning due to owning the standard, which isn't the case with USB-C.

I really think the only reason it didn't shake out like this is because wireless charging tech just isn't where it needs to be. It's possible that Apple thought it was going to advance faster. They had one very ambitious product they were going to release for wireless charging that got completely canceled a couple years ago: theverge.com/2021/8/5/22611234/apple-airpower-wireless-charger-working-prototype

Do you know how rare it is for Apple to announce a product and then alter it at all from what they said when they announced it -- much less straight up cancel it?

They could have gone the iPad route, but part of the problem is that iPhones are a status symbol/conspicuous consumption product as well. There are plenty of people who buy the latest "Pro" model as a way of signaling status. This move would likely have caused a lot of confusion in general for less tech savvy people. It's no longer "Do you have an iPhone charger?" it's "Do you have an iPhone charger or that new new one?"

>They only were waiting around for a scapegoat.

I really doubt this. Apple has never been one to shy away from making decisions that can be decried as shameless profit grabs. Example: removing headphone jack. Removing wall brick charger from phones.

They could not have predicted that the EU would introduce unprecedented legislation forcing them to this standard and they fought it vehemently.

That wouldn't pass muster in the regulation.

If we can extrapolate from last years update and this years update, then next year iPhone 16 will get the A17 and also get USB 3.

This is a really insane thread.

So was removing the CD drive. Or shunning Java on the original iPhone.

Also the Macbooks still have it while the M1 didn't have magsafe, so maybe let's not use Apple's decisions as indication of obsolescence.

I suppose the lawyers would get paid a bunch to figure out how flexible the definition of "port" in the regulation would be. "Port" in networking is obviously purely a concept vs a physical hole. "Port" in shipping is also more conceptual, no two ports need share the same layout.

Of course marketing sold it as benefit, which for some it was since they are ok with average quality. Considering thick brick that current iphones are for quite some time, space taken by port was never the issue, unlike stated originally as reason for removal.

And if you could, it'd be balanced out in outdoors use cases by the lack of wired audio artifacts, namely cable telephonics sending walking impacts into your ears.

Anyway, AirPods do support lossless audio now. (Well, next year.)

https://www.apple.com/airpods-pro/

The source is the DAC and the DAC in that dongle is better than most audiophile DACs are. Remember, audiophile equipment is scams made by small companies and iPhone dongles have bigger R&D budgets than their entire industry.

If they remove all jacks, that's so many devices I own, and use-cases I have, poof gone!

(I can't "leave it connected to headphones" as my iPhone is not the only device I own; and I move myself and my iPhone quite a bit. The nice thing about 3.5 was universal and ubiquitous. Lightning without 3.5mm is just a constant pain in my keister :)

But, the context of this sub-thread as I understood it, is - if they discontinue all the ports completely / go wireless, one could only use bluetooth headphones. And that's the suck because:

1. I already have a number of very nice headphones I planed to last me a lifetime

2. Bluetooth headphones have built-in obsolescence (battery, new protocols, etc)

3. Lag! I like to play synthesizers / make music on computers and tablets. Or play games with Kishi. Bluetooth is a pain for such use cases.

etc :-/

plugged in the back into the unused cd changer port behind some carpet

took 2 mins to install, wish I had done it years ago

It was this!

https://www.tindie.com/products/aaafnraa/serial-adapter-rebo...

Bought a Motorola G6 in 2018 for €199. It takes "fantastic" photos, and came in a "stunning new" (!?) color of black(ish). It's pretty much indestructible, runs Firefox with uBlock Origin, and it's "better for the environment" because every year you don't buy a new phone, the environment is happy.

It also has USB-C, and a 3.5 jack.

[1] https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-get-my-mon....

Citation needed.

Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf] (senate.gov)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37438934

I suppose you and Senator Warren have different definitions for unauthorized.

Here's a question for you to think about: Why do they reverse some claims but not others?

I guess that is the question. I'll be interested in the bank's reply.

And a lot of the complaint is about "cases where customers reported being fraudulently induced into making payments", which would agree with the ancestor comment.

The scare quotes imply that they are the ones saying the case isn't very strong, so I'm not quibbling with them, I'm trying to interpret them.

https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/evert/

I use LineageOS and it is true that I have to use Magisk to have banking app working. And I understand that this is not for everyone.

I just wanted to mention that there is a way to use older phone and have security updates longer than vendor provides it. And even longer than Apple.

I get the argument about binary blob updates. Security is never 100%. And it also shows another reason why binary blobs make things worse.

It may even receive system web browser updates, as those tend to go on for much longer than OS updates with Android.

With a little care, it is likely to be fine.

A complete reset solves it tho.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2020/10/08/sop...

In the article it explains how Google and the ransomers are doing a cat and mouse thing. If your phone is not keeping up, that could definitely be an issue.

My iPad 5 got an iOS update last month-ish? And a security patch last week. All of my kids run iPhone 8.

Those two are the apps that survived the longest (Try getting any matrix client to work on it). Others broke sooner, most of them because the app developer has to enable TLS1.2 to be able to use it for HTTP APIs and many web servers disabled responding to older versions a while ago. Firefox (the one which allowed all extensions) still works. Great! But I can't message anyone anymore. On a phone.

TBH I put most of the blame here on app developers (supporting older stuff is not that hard) and some of it on the device manufacturers.

Plus, currently plenty of androids have 5-6 years of guaranteed security updates. To be honest I wouldnt ever want to use much older phones even if patched up to date, too clunky, making bad photos (I have kids so this is top priority), not up to most network standards and so on

My S21 Ultra is in its 3rd year and regularly updated. Should get 5 years of updates, and I intend to keep it until then.

Also, the writing is on the wall that the EU will force phone makers to years of updates, changeable batteries and availability of spare parts.

It's also noteworthy that Google has the ability to update many system services via Google Play. The poor track record of updates from phone makers basically demanded it. In other words, an Android device that hasn't received any system updates in a year or two is still fairly usable.

https://doc.samsungmobile.com/sm-a705fn/sek/doc.html

Looking at this list of devices getting updates, it only lists A70s with "biannual" updates, so A70 may no longer be updated:

https://security.samsungmobile.com/workScope.smsb

But I agree, it's great how Apple supports devices for 6 years with major updates. It would also be possible for Android phones if SoC & phones manufacturer actually cared.

I also have a Pixel 5. It received Magic Eraser, which used to be a key feature of newer Pixels, as part of a regular Photos app update.

I'm still getting major updates too, but, tbh, they aren't that critical. Chrome, GMail, Maps, YouTube, Calendar, Messaging, the app store itself (including UI) and the core web browser will keep getting updates well beyond the end of life.

There really isn't a direct comparison here, but I wouldn't switch in either direction due to updates.

I remember before I switched to iPhone I would wait and wait and wait and wait for the latest android and updates and a whole new version of android would roll out before I would even get the previous version.

For what is worth, I have a Galaxy Tab S6 from 2019 that is still getting security updates, although it wasn't updated to Android 13: https://doc.samsungmobile.com/SM-T865/ROM/doc.html

For reference, the latest version of iOS will run on 5 year old iPhones when it is released.

For operating system updates, Samsung pledged 4 years of updates for the flagships starting with S21.

The difference between Android versions isn't big. I also mentioned in another comment that on Android, to cope with phone makers not pushing for system updates, Google can update many system components via Google Play. And apps remain compatible. Being 2 versions behind the latest Android is OK.

Ideally Google would mandate a minimum number of years for both feature and security updates that macthes theirs of three and five, respectively.

We don’t have to limit it to people you know

People upgrade their phones about once every 2.5 years

https://www.refurb.me/blog/how-long-does-a-smartphone-last-r...

But, go figure, the sticker price is like 10-15% higher than on the Apple site.

They just hid the interest in the price.

Same, on Apple’s site: $699

IDK, maybe apple price-dropped today and T-Mobile hasn’t caught up, but that’s similar to what I’ve seen in the past when I’ve looked at buying through them.

But even that do they don’t value phone upgrades. When I see their ancient phones I sometimes remark they can get a phone with monthly terms and they just shrug and say the sad device with cracked screens and ancient cameras and crap display resolution and brightness is good enough for them. It baffles me, but most people just use their phone for texting, occasionally a map, and a crappy camera. Only in my tech friend circle do people keep up.

You can easily look up the average time between phone upgrades is between 2-3 years.

64% are living paycheck to paycheck, now whether they opt to get a new smartphone or not is not clear.

What is clear is the statistics you linked and I could find were polls of either people buying a new phone, which would be structurally biased towards people who are buying phones make frequently and are not buying used phones, or they were surveys of people with some relationship with a mobile or tech related site or product. These don’t seem like very unbiased surveys - but they do seem like sources apple or a phone maker would care about. “Of the people we care about in our marketing, they buy every 2-3 years.” I know in my family my wife’s family inherits our old phones and would ever show up in such a poll, nor do people buying off eBay, or even used from Amazon, etc.

Maybe a single mom working three jobs to raise their five children really does feel compelled to have the newest iPhones and puts her kids needs behind a high resolution screen, but I somehow believe she’s just not counted in market surveys of phone buyers.

If given a choice between every single citation I could find on the internet and your anecdotes of what your family does, which one do you think is more reliable?

I’d not the median household income is 70k, which means half of all households make less than that. The median personal income is $40k.

Again, we aren’t getting remotely close to 99% of people are upgrading every 2-4 years.

On the entire internet every source cites 2-3 years but you choose not to believe it because it doesn’t support your worldview?

And in the US, even the MVNOs that are targeted toward lower income buyers subsidize phones where you get them for “free”.

But you’re telling me on the entire internet you can’t find one statistic that supports your claim?

It seems the only progress is the camera and the CPU, but for what more CPU speed? The camera?

It’s really not that hard to find statistics. It’s 2.5 - 3 years

https://www.refurb.me/blog/how-long-does-a-smartphone-last-r...

https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-2-year-mobile-phone-upgrade-c...

I know multiple people still using an iPhone X (2018), for whom cost is not an issue.

The main reason for the majority of the general population to upgrade is because the phone literally breaks (screen, stops charging, radio malfunctions, etc)

> How can one justify paying 3x the cost if not just to continue keeping myself tied into Apple?

It's not rocket science. The experience you get using an iPhone vs a cheap Android for 5 years is not even close to comparable, and while you do pay a ridiculous premium for an iPhone, there are obvious reasons why someone would want to.

And this is coming from a long time Pixel user.

I hate to see that I am starting to sound like an activist, but I also hate to see how even the supposedly smarter-than-average people in tech lose all sense of perspective when they see shiny overpriced trinkets.

Why should we care if "the experience is not even close to comparable", if it is brought by a trillion dollar corporation who denies people even the most basic rights and fights as dirty as it can to keep its unfair advantages?

(And please notice that the above paragraph also applies to Google and Samsung, so please don't make it sound that I am arguing for team Android here)

It cost me about €600, and I also enjoy knowing that I've generated that much less e-waste compared to my prior Android life, where I had to discard phones every 2 or 3 years.

Second, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I can bet good money that if we look at a distribution of activated iphones per model, we will see that most users probably stay a lot less than 6-7 years.

Third, it's not about iPhone vs Android. It's the fact that we are discussing things like "getting security updates" when in fact we should be asking ourselves "why aren't we free to install whatever system we want on our own device?" I don't really care so much about the fact your phone cost 600 or 6000€, what bugs me to no end is that we are effectively paying trillion-dollar corporations to let them remove our freedoms.

Not every iPhone is over $800.

$500 in 2019 is $597 now.

450 Euro in 2019 is 533 Euro now.

That's enough to buy an iPhone 13 and skip the SE model entirely.

- Most people change phones every 2 to 3 years.

- iPhone SE/mini accounts for less than 25% of the units sold.

If you manage to make do with the cheaper version of iPhones, ok. But your case (and mine) are outliers, and even in that case Apple's products are not better from an ethical/environmental/fair trade point of view.

I don't know where I am losing you...

and you don't have to pay 3x the cost if you don't want, buy last year's model refurbished.

I have the Pixel 5a, it was released in August 2021 and Google only guarantees support for that model up to August 2024, that is for both full OS updates and just security patches. As of the Pixel 6 series and after, you get 3 years of full OS updates, and 5 years of security patches (that's 2 extra years after full OS updates stop).

To compare, the iPhone 13 series was released in September 2021 and will continue to get support up to 7 years after its release (Sept 2028).

So far my Pixel 5a has been the best (reliability-wise) phone I've ever hard and it sucks to know that after August 2024, I'll be vulnerable to future security vulnerabilities.

Samsung offer only slightly better support by increasing the full OS support to 4 years instead of Google's 3 for the Pixel. Same 5 year for security patch. That's not enough for me to go back to Samsung and deal with their OS bloated with apps I can't uninstall (it's been a while, maybe it's better?)

sources:

https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en

https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-four-year-update-list-...

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201624

If it feels too slow, try disabling "Secure app spawning". It's a security improvement over Google's Android by GrapheneOS but increases app startup time. Especially on slower devices like the 4a.

In any case, I welcome USB-C to the iPhone world.

I have USB-C for virtually everything and have no interest in dealing with keeping a second set of cables for one device. It's an extra expense, headache, and environmental waste I don't want. The change to USB-C makes an iPhone a viable option for me. I look forward to a refreshed SE line with USB-C as well.

I'm not thrilled about all the cables and dongles/adapters eventually going to landfills, but believe the move will be better in the long-run. I wish Apple made the move earlier.

The point I was trying to make was that an android phone having USB-C isn't the most important factor for the person who posted. This is evidenced by the fact that they purchased the iPhone anyway even though USB-C options existed.

Should Apple have stuck with Lightning for an entire decade? No. But any switch away from Lightning was going to cause pain for customers already invested in the ecosystem, and there was a time when that ecosystem actually made the most sense.

Still work like a charm

This seems wrong. I am still on an iPhone Xs Max from 2018 and it still gets software updates. It looks like the last software update on the G6 was in 2020. The lack of even security patches limits the life of the phone for many people.

The primary reason I'll eventually need to upgrade is because of 5G support. Coverage is getting worse as 3G has been shutdown and all new towers are focusing on 5G. My battery life sucks now too, but that can solved easily.

Works perfectly, and I didn't really care when I smacked a ratchet into it and cracked the screen a month ago.

The problem with tech is nothing is ever "good enough." Sure, you could make a phone that is durable for 10 years... but someone will invent new battery chemistry, CPUs will get considerably more powerful/efficient, and Sony will come along with even better camera sensors.

So it's really not possible for that high-end "old" phone to keep up after a few years. That's true for most consumer tech, even if the pace is slowing down somewhat. An expensive LED TV from 2013 will not compare favorably with a good value mid-range one today.

We can either stop innovating, which is also bad for the environment (technology improvements allow for vast efficiency and energy-use improvements in a huge range of products), or we can make sure things have a lot of re-use value. That can be done through the used market with good repairability and software support, and by making sure phones can be recycled and also use a lot of recycled materials.

Maybe. (I'm not one of them, but ok.) But that doesn't have much to do with the environmental impact? It's still greener to keep phones longer, even if they don't get updates.

A Volkswagen is a better buy than a Porsche for most - pretty much a comparable market positioning

Have you ever had to reflash yours or anything like that?

The integration of two USB ports into the Apple keyboards of this era was an excellent innovation, which I use daily. Mouse on one side, thumbdrive on the other.

In classic Apple style, when they finally capitulated and added secondary buttons to their mice, they hid them. Actually, that was the second stupid move. The first was making the entire mouse body the button... so you couldn't keep the "button" pressed and then scroll, lift, scroll some more (because when you lifted the mouse, the button was released). So Apple's workaround wasn't to fix that stupid design, but rather to add little "wings" on the sides of the mouse that you could pinch with two fingers while somehow keeping the mouse mashed down with other fingers, in order to do multi-swipe scrolling.

The "Magic" mouse was an attempt to one-up legit mice by adding a touchpad to the back of the mouse... which you were somehow supposed to swipe sideways across with some fingers, while using other fingers to hold the mouse in place. It's just so gallingly dumb. There's not much else to say.

Oh... except the one where the charging wire goes into the BOTTOM of the mouse! I mean... you can't make this stuff up. Actually, you could, but "Polish" jokes aren't really PC anymore.

The Magic Keyboard is what it is, which is a perfectly decent keyboard for mainstream users. I like it because it keeps the typing feel consistent between desktop and laptop. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I was writing a novel or into competitive gaming, but I don't, so I like it.

The Magic Mouse is an abomination. Not because the charging port location, sure it looks funny, but it's actually not an issue in real life. The actual problem is it's an ergonomic catastrophe. (Which is par for the course with Apple. In its 40+ year history, Apple has never once made a legitimately good mouse.)

For ergonomics, both are seem to be fine for the way I hold my mouse.

But the "Magic Keyboard" is trash because the "butterfly" keyboard is trash, visited by the hack Jony Ive upon Apple customers for five inexcusable years. Sure, it's consistent with Apple laptops of the era, but if I could wade through shit all day every day for the sake of consistency... I wouldn't.

Even the current Apple keyboards don't approach the quality of the aluminum era; the time when the little Bluetooth one had the curved back edge where the batteries went. I'm typing on a full-sized aluminum desktop Apple keyboard of that era right now. These were the peak of modern Apple (and, I think, chiclet) keyboards in general.

It's sad what people accept for keyboard quality now. I totally understand the resurgence of mechanical keyboards, which are nothing but normal-quality keyboards of yesteryear.

Anyway, we're mostly in agreement here. Apple should give up the peripherals game, because they're singularly bad at it.

But the continued lack of a real Delete key on Apple's laptops is annoying as shit. It has always been stupid, because everybody else manages to put a Delete key on their keyboards no matter how small. But when the Eject key became obsolete, the failure to put a Delete key on every keyboard just proved that Apple hasn't abandoned the infantile pettiness that has marked a lot of its history.

https://github.com/pqrs-org/Karabiner-Elements

Regardless of the reason, Apple (per its M.O.) implemented a ridiculously complicated and crippling "solution" instead of simply making Eject a secondary function on some other key... like a Delete key.

So I have always had to use F12 for Delete (via Karabiner).

That stands in contrast to the ones on their computers, which are too big and cause spurious right-clicks and your cursor to jump to other parts of the screen while you're typing. Ridiculous.

What makes it worse is that the Pencil doesn't work on the giant computer trackpads. WHY? I would've bought that on day one. Talk about utter failure on Apple's part, year after year.

So, my phone, tablet, steam deck, power bank, bluetooth-to-wired audio adapter, all use USB C. Same with any of the laptops I'm looking at getting. Thus, all I ever need to carry is a power brick, a USB C hub, a C-to-C cable and an A-to-C cable and it'll be sufficient for everything.

I wish my Garmin bike stuff had USB C.

Same, my last non-usb C devices are my inreach and edge 500. I guess it's a testament to how long they last.

Everything else I have is micro USB: my phone, my ereader (PocketBook), my reMarkable tablet, my bluetooth headset, my bike GPS, the lights of my bike, my portable batteries.

I fear the day I will have to replace all of those with USB-C because, currently, I can travel with only one small charger (as long as I don’t take my laptop).

Most everything is moving towards USB-C but it's slow; I want Milwaukee and them to have more USB-C charging devices for the smaller battery charged things.

My partner’s phone (an Android) is already on USB-C, so this will also let us share cables, which is a huge plus.

The fact that people talk about how integrated the Apple ecosystem is, yet you needed an adapter to connect its phone to its laptop says it all.

When it came to apple, that kind of stuff has always been pure puffery and marketing anyway. "Their hardware is the best" people would say, while their computers sat at 100% fan, choking under the strain of running basic apps with no real cooling, while the user worked around a stuck "C" key and being careful with their inflating battery.

I've started buying multi-standard cables - they usually terminate with micro-usb, and have tiny attached adapters for usb-c and lightning.

higher quality example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071WNQYV6 but there are lots of cheaper variants.

- Android phones (our family collectively has 2 Android phones and 2 iPhones)

- iPad

- wireless headphones

Peripherals, usb-a is still what you usually get, just going by what’s common on store shelves. Just got a new kit at work a few weeks ago—all these brand-new devices are made to plug into A, even if the other end is usb-c. They come with A-to-c cables, or else are A-only. In the former case, I can at least fix it by just using c cables I already have.

But, overall, the peripheral world as most people experience it is still A-first. C options are usually more expensive, may be part of why.

At this point I actively avoid buying any devices that are not USBC because there is an alternative to any product I could want. Products shipping with micro USB in 2023 are almost always indicative of a cheap product or an old product that hasn't received any meaningful updates.

The only glaring examples are Apple phones/accessories, which I avoid, and sadly fitness devices. My water bottle and watch both have proprietary connections, I assume because a water proof USBC connection is just not feasible on small devices. Hopefully some kind of standard gets established there as I've had products that look like they have very similar connections that almost fit but they don't actually charge.

This is only somewhat true. Some products are decent quality, but they’re not really “tech” products, they just do power delivery via MicroUSB. Also there are some high end products that have not switched and are huge pain points. Like Logitech makes these very good wireless mouses that are still micro USB.

I’ve wanted a USB C iPhone for years, but will be skipping this because I’m already setup to have to support 4 different types of cable: Lightning, USB C, and Micro USB (and USB A)

For Micro USB and USB A I just have converters that I can slip onto a USB C cord which works because I have to use them less frequently, but I have high quality Lightning cables.

Plus all the other stuff I have that I’d have to buy a new version of to fully get rid of Lightning: 2 Apple TV remotes, AirPods Max, at least a new AirPod Pro charging case and my basic iPad.

It sucks. I’ve wanted this for a while but it’s probably going to be at least 3 more years before I get to demote Lightning to the same category as USB A and Micro USB

I just wish Apple had sucked it up and done this sooner before they got forced to. I really do think the strategy was to eventually have at least the non Pro iPhones go completely portless.

Is it an older model that is popular that they just aren't changing because people are still buying them? If you're willing to try something new you might be surprised by the improvements they have in their latest lines.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B095GG31KX

Do you use lightning for charging your phone when traveling and mag save for your macbook?

MacBook, iPad, Studio Display, Switch, Sony headphones, Kindle, my wife’s Pixel phone, Steam Deck, Raspberry Pi. The only micro USB devices I have are some old portable chargers. The only Lightning devices I have are my phone, my AirPods and, for some reason that still escapes me, the external trackpad Apple sells.

If the only USB-C gadget you have is the Switch you must not have bought many gadgets in the past five years. Which actually isn’t a bad thing, good on you.

- Phone: USB-C

- Bose wireless headphones charging: Micro-USB

- The hand-held fan (nice one) I bought last week in the heatwave: Micro-USB

- Lenovo tablet: Micro-USB

- Macbook Pro: Magsafe 2

- Monitor 1: Thunderbolt 2 (same connector as Mini DisplayPort)

- Monitor 2: HDMI

- Spare monitors: HDMI x 2, DVI x 1

- TVs: HDMI x 2, DVI x 1 + 3.5mm-audio

- External keyboard and trackpad: WiFi only and batteries, no connector

- Spare external keyboard and mouse:: USB-A

- WiFi modules: RJ-45 (power + data)

- External storage: USB-3.0-Micro-B (the weird split one)

But just my perspective on it, I will have to replace all my lightning cables with usb-c, and the usb-c ecosystem seems like a nightmare to me from what I have seen.

This would be my first usb-c device.

In the next few years consumers will start getting laptops that need 60W, but most cables can do that now, and it won't be common for a few years now(Phones still had microUSB when I bought my laptop, many people have even older ones).

But it is better to finally make the jump. I've never been unhappy with Lightning, but almost everything else I own has now switched to USB-C.

And he isn't really rough or abusive with these cables either.

Where as I still have MicroUSB cables from 10 or 12yrs ago that still look and work like new.

As many people can vouch for: lighting cables can easily work for many many years without any trouble whatsoever.

What I don’t do is hold them under tension for long periods, or use them stretched taught then bent 90° right next to the connector. My wife and kids ruin cables in a few months, and that’s how they do it. I didn’t get what people were talking about with apple cables being fragile, until I saw that.

I developed my habit because the same behavior is bad on ports, too. I’d developed an unconscious avoidance to doing those things before I ever owned an Apple device, or had one at work. So my Apple cables last forever unless my wife or kids get ahold of them.

Now I just use a usb-c cable with a 90 degree bend built in.

Up until a few years back when I noticed my replacement cord for yet another bad Apple cable felt different. Haven't had any issues with them after that. I assume they changed the manufacturing process.

The most frequent tendency I notice among people who have their cables fray is they use their phones while charging, but if you do certain things on your phone like long gaming sessions, you are almost forced to use your phone while it charges. So blaming the user feels a little bit like "you're holding it wrong" to me.

Where I did notice a difference between USB-C and lightning is that the lightning PORT seemed more durable than USB-C ports. I own multiple phones with flaky USB-C ports, whereas lighting ports seem much more durable.

I've seen this happen for Apple MagSafe, Lightning, and I believe even USB-C.

I noticed (I don't have one) the new Magsafe ones for the current MacBooks have changed to a braided fabric looking coating/sleeve instead.

When I was doing Android phones, I was going through a new Micro USB cable about every month or two. Never long enough to fray the cable itself, it was always the connector flaking out and refusing to make a good enough connection to charge reliably.

Good riddance to Micro USB.

Flimsy cables are flimsy cables and they will break and fray. USB-C, Lightning, whatever.

The first-party Lightning cables from Apple have always been pretty flimsy so if Lightning cables have a bad rep in general, that's probably why. That's Apple's fault but not anything specific to Lightning.

I've had a lot of Anker Lightning cables and they're about as bulletproof as a cable can possibly be.

This is why I don't think Apple's electronic waste argument makes much sense. All devices I've bought in the last 5 years have been USB-C, while iPhone users were stuck on Lightning. If Apple had switched back then all those users would've been buying 5 years worth of cables that work with everything, rather than cables that work for only a few devices from a single manufacturer.

Although I haven't really had a Lightning port fail on me yet, having the component more likely to eventually break in the cable rather than the device makes a lot of sense to me.

Look closely at the lightning cables in your house, calling it now at least one of them has a burnt pin (4th pin from the left most likely)

Compared to lighting it only has advantages, faster charging, more universal.

It's only a nightmare because you can carry almost anything over USB C incl. DisplayPort etc. which is not always clear if it's supported or not

It also supports HDMI but that's used with an adapter anyway, so it's not a consideration if it works for a user.

There's an HDMI "alt mode", but almost no device uses that directly; most USB-C-to-HDMI adapters and cables are accordingly really combined USB-C to DisplayPort and DisplayPort to HDMI converters and translate one protocol to the other at the electrical and logical level.

At my desk I have a laptop, keyboard, and mouse which typically all typically get charged off a single thunderbolt 4 cable. You can have anything from games controllers to bicycle lights to remote controls sharing a single charger. No need to fuss with adapters, or having a rats nest of different cables, or charge-only cables with microusb/usb-c/lightning at the end. C to C cables are also very nice since they're usable in more places than usb-A to lightning or USB-C to lightning or USB-A to USB-C.

The technology itself is great. It's the flawed implementations, the lack of standards enforcement, and the very gradual and slow death of lightning/micro-usb/USB-A that's really holds things back. Once you figure out what you need to buy, and finish buying the appropriate products that you need, it is nice to be able to use one charger and one cable with several different things.

People underestimate just how stable lightning cables are. After 11 years they have two types of certified cables in terms of data and charging capabilities, and you can tell them apart by whether the other end is USB-A or USB-C

in practice there are lots of usb-c cables that don't do data, which all lightning cables do. they're just not officially certified ones. which means they're not "real" usb-c cables.

again, the problem is it turns out in practice virtually nobody is using "real" usb-c cables, and if you want to stand on the formal definition, then we can formally say the standard has no real market penetration and can reasonably be disregarded until it catches traction.

if you can walk into a bodega and be assured that the lightning cable sitting on the shelf is going to be a certified and approved cable with data transfer, and the usb-c cable probably won't, then that's kinda all that really matters.

(and thus, we can see why certification programs like lightning exist. the $2 lightning cable on the bodega counter probably has better capabilities than the $5 usb-c cable on the counter because of the certification process.)

I have no idea what fraction of the USB-C cables are certified, but they're not broken. They have the wires because people want the wires. For such a basic feature, this is more effective than certification.

However, I believe this prevents negotiation for power delivery. Even if not, you need the CEC pins for the cable to function and that is a data channel as well (there are firmware update specs over CEC)

This is not true at all.

I've bought lightning cables at the dollar store that are single-sided (one side has "UPSIDE" written on it, you can't flip it over), power only

edit: I buy a lot of cheap USB gadgets (fans, flashlights etc) so I checked my cables. Not one of my USB-C to C cables are missing data. Plenty of USB-A to C cables are, though. So as long as you avoid USB-A you may be fine.

Currently:

- 70% of people have been buying the absolute cheapest lightning conforming cable they could find on amazon. They buy them in 3 packs, use them until they inevitably catch fire or fray within a few months and then throw them out and use the next one.

- 25% of people buy the cheapest lightning cable they can find on amazon that is rated for MFI. They've been burned enough by the bad cable and are just savvy enough to know there is a made-for-iphone program of "approved" lightning cables that actually conform to standards

- 5% of people buy OEM first-party cables from Apple

...

Now you will see:

- 70% of people buying the absolute cheapest usb-c conforming cable they can find on amazon (which is not "really" usb-c but the plug fits so who cares). They will buy them in 3 packs, use them until they fray or catch fire and then throw it out and use the next one

- 20% of people will buy the cheapest certified usb-c cable they can find on amazon because they are just tech savvy enough to know there is a difference and that its worth finding a good one. But this cable will likely only be usb 2 speeds.

- 5% of people will buy a premium usb-c cable with usb 3 speeds for 10Gbs transfer because they actually use and care about it.

...

As you can see, on the low end nothing changes. Most people will still buy the absolute cheapest cable they can find and have no idea what they are buying or care that there is a difference. These people will still benefit from being able to use the same cable for everything because it fits in the hole and thats all they care or understand.

But at least now there are more options and power available to the tiny percent of the population that actually does care and understand the difference.

All in all, its only upsides. Everybody wins. The only real downside is throwing out whatever collection of lightning cables you might already have.

Remember that as cool as transfer speeds sound, almost nobody transfers stuff using a cable off their iPhone. 99% of people will airdrop a few photos off, download music from spotify/apple music, and stream or maybe download from netflix or disney plus for offline viewing. But really VERY VERY VERY few people are transferring using the cable. For the people that do, they are probably transferring huge video files they recorded off their device and they will know to get a good quality usb 3 compatible usb-c cable. But thats like 1 out of 100 people, if that.

If you don't need data transfer, there are reasons like cost and cable thickness/flexibility to get a charging-only cable.

Most people need very few cables over USB 2.0 speeds, and they typically don't need those to be very long.

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of non-conforming USB-C implementations (original Switch models, Raspberry Pis, and tons of other charging-only gadgets) such that it is not possible at any cost to standardize on a stack of USB-C cables with the same properties.

The annoying part is that cables still tend to not be labelled with their properties, it is challenging to determine if a device properly supports power delivery and cables rated > 30W, and there aren't a lot of tools to diagnose issues or cable capabilities.

For people who want to have e.g. 100W+ of power while feeding a signal to 4K60+ external monitors it's kind of a nightmare unless they know that "just use Thunderbolt 4" "trick".

So if you have say a 16" MacBook Pro, you need to get not only Thunderbolt 4 which is a rare spec, you want to ideally get ~85-140w PD not ~60w, AND you need to get an expensive dock that can split up the two HBR3 displayport channels instead of a regular MST Thunderbolt 4 dock.

Thankfully Apple has a solution to consumer confusion caused by all this. Buy a $1600 Apple studio display, connect it directly to your Mac, use the monitor itself as a dock, and everything will be compatible. Stay in the safe walled garden.

USB-C is a mess. Whoever decided to fix the annoying compatibility issues of USB mini/micro/blah blah by just solving the physical port problem should never be consulted on anything again.

I get that it would be cool. For the ipad i think it makes sense to do that, but your phone...? Let's get real. Fast charging over a standardized cable with 10gbs transfer speeds is gonna be just fine.

If you shoot videos longer than a few seconds on your iPhone, you will appreciate a way to get them off of your phone at a non-glacial pace.

For professionals shooting significant amounts of video, this is more than a convenience feature. Once your device's internal storage fills up with video, which does not take long at 4K60, now your "camera" is a paperweight until you can dump that footage.

Obviously, only a very small percentage of people are using their phones this way. But I think Apple really values that market.

But, with these phones, I can at least get rid of the dozens of Lightning cables I’ve accumulated. And only a few of my devices are still USB-A, so I imagine I’ll be all C soon enough (probably just in time for USB-D or something else).

[1]:https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001914B.pd...

And there are USB-C chargers (provided with Google phones and Belkin USB-C car chargers) that will charge the devices. So, I guess they're ignoring the lack of negotiation and just providing 5v? No idea.

So, consumers are left guessing what will work or won't. And carrying at least two chargers (one "dumb" and one "smart/PD").

I have a problem with them advertising it as "USB-C" and USB-IF doing nothing to stop this false advertising.

It's common for rechargeable lights to not support c-to-c cables and require a usb a to usb c cable.

This is largely what I'm talking about in the last paragraph of my post.

Worst case scenario, you get a cheap cable and you're stuck at the same charging speed and data speed as what lighting could do. It can only get better for you; lightning is an ancient port.

The USB-C charging cables can also carry data at USB2 speeds. I'm pretty sure thats the limit of what the iphone 15 usb-c port can handle. (Since they explicitly called out the iphone 15 pro as having hardware support for usb3).

You can get a breakout board for few bucks yourself and that's still going to be more than Apple would have to pay.

The actual answer is that they used last year's SOC which had only USB 2 support.

My girlfriend's Pixel 4a can transfer about 4x USB2's real world maximum. Just tested it.

USB 3 isn't new, it dates back to 2008. Every Pixel phone except the original Pixel 1 (USB 3.0) and Pixel 3a (USB 2.0) supports USB 3.1.

For actual use the actual practical max speed is far more important. It would be useless if you wanted something better than USB 2.0 and it only did 1.1 times the USB 2 limit for example.

Stop shitting on the long tail!

And fuckin stand up for your rights and privacy as a consumer!

When did tech become so conformist?

I too am saddened by what feels like a deliberate tactic to further cripple the already locked down cable interface. On Android, I could trivially upload and download all of my data without an intermediary.

But it really puzzles me how that feature needs wifi. Regular TCP/IP has everything you need to discover devices on the network and connect to them. What exactly is 802.11x adding here?

There are lots of added protocols (e.g. Bonjour) because TCP/IP alone is not about discovery.

And of course here we're talking about syncing over wi-fi. How would TCP/IP alone, without Wi-Fi enabled, cut it? It would sync wirelessly over ...cable ethernet?

Is it really so inconceivable that a phone is connected to a wi-fi gateway on a regular LAN?

Because that is how my network is set up here at home.

Apple seems to mostly use Bonjour (mDNS) for these whether using a local network (and indeed that is the case for this wifi sync feature), but they also have a few features/frameworks that can also be setup over an Apple specific "peer to peer wifi" connection which is bootstrapped with bluetooth and switches to peer to peer wifi for fast data transfer, similar but not the same protocol as WiFi direct (according to https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/12885). This is what AirPlay2 does for example. That is one way WiFi could matter for such a feature versus Ethernet.

This wifi sync definitely works with Ethernet on the Mac side (personal experience)

Those people that do care are probably already getting a Pro anyway.

Any evidence besides you just decided it?

Carplay? Or is a cable optional for that? IIRC it was sending some data over the cable because I get promoted for carplay stuff after plugging it in.

https://slickdeals.net/f/16869551-carlinkit-5-0-cpc200-2air-...

As far as "not very polished UX", after connecting it's been nothing but the standard CarPlay interface. The instructions say there's a web UI accessible via wifi where you can install updates or change configuration but I had no need to use it. Just connect with Bluetooth, wait a second, and accept the "Connect to CarPlay" popup.

It’s been in use for a year with not a single issue. I set it up with my phone and have been able to forget about its existence ever since.

This is the first time I’ve ever used data over USB on this phone though. I wish Apple had better testing for their bluetooth stack.

The only port I want at all is a headphone jack, and that’s easily waterproofed. Since we can’t have that, I was hoping they’d remove the charge port entirely.

This is probably more typical for iOS than Android users, because the former restricts very severely what can be accessed from the connected computer; copying data is much faster via cable.

None of this Face ID nonsense. A camera which takes pictures. What exactly are you missing? My only gripe is it’s too thin - the battery sucks.

I suppose you could argue in the other direction that Macbooks are way overpriced. :-)

I did drop $3.5k on my M1 Max MBP though and have zero regrets. And I plan on keeping it for 8-10 years. My previous laptop was a 2011 MacBook Pro which lasted about that long.

I just haven't ever spent more than ~$450 on a phone so far. The lag and the battery life on my current phone is starting to get pretty annoying. I might end up buying if it is a significantly better experience.

iPad is more or less same, except it lets you extend to a screen (not just mirror with wrong aspect-ratio), but the window management and everything else is still shit.

Neither of those devices adapt to keyboard/mouse yet, and primarily touch only. It does makes sense that they are touch only, but "its powerful" argument becomes less and less useful every release. It may mean different to someone else who plays games, or benefits from Machine Learning things that the phone can perform more each release just because of added power.

You will:

- save money to buy new phone (cable costs just ~10$)

- it's magnetic so even more convenient to use

- magnetic adapter protects connector from dust getting inside or getting broken

- you use the same cable with adapters for usb-c, lightning and micro-usb to charge different gadgets (even older airpods pro)

If cable brakes (at it did brake for me after ~1 year of use) you just buy new one for 10$ instead of new phone for 1000$. Keeping old phone is the most environmentally friendly option.

non-pro iphone 15 usb-c is still just 2.0 speed and most likely doesn't support usb-otg

[1] https://www.amazon.in/Baseus-Magnetic-Multipurpose-Retractab...

(Sorry if questions are naive, I've never seen one of those).

Who is buying a whole new device if the cable breaks?? One still just buys a new cable…

You could stick a toothpick inside a lightning port on a phone to remove pocket lint, you can’t do this with USB-C without a higher risk of damaging the phone.

USB-C on the phone side has a protrusion that slots inside the cable end the same as previous usb cables. This is the fragile part, but it’s still a big improvement over micro usb.

Something about the USB circuitry doesn't like how the magnetic adapters partially connect sometimes. I don't pretend to understand the failure mode but I have a very funky Valve Index controller now.

What do you mean "while you still can"? Will they discontinue battery replacements for the 11 at some point? At 80€ its a no brainer once the battery does start to deteriorate more

I’m glad it works for you but I personally am glad we’re trending towards usb-c, at least for the next couple of years, across most devices.

However if still someone consider buying this new iphone only for usb-c it's a good alternative to keep old phone and save money (since there was almost no innovation since iPhone X especially in non-pro models).

But if you need usb 3.0 speed then you will need new iphone 15 pro

The problem was, though, that the magnets were too weak - they would constantly disconnect

(of course just a thought but!)

IF people can buy a cheap phone or an expensive but older phone, the older phone still works often better than a new cheap phone. So when he 'upgrades' the old phone gets reused and saves one cheap phone.

Hackernews comment that put it better than me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35436727

I bought into the 'Volta' ecosystem and the adapters started degrading within 6 months. I would only trust a product from a major electronics producer, not these random brands on Amazon. If none of the big players have this as a product, it smells of a reason why it isn't a thing. Otherwise, I really wanted it to be. I hate the damage plugging cables in and out of devices does to the phone's power sockets over time.

But.... with an adapter? They're a few dollars online.

I'm puzzled by your recommendation to use bluetooth on a wired earphones instead of replacing them.

This is why USB-C is a user-hostile spec.

you might get a charge-only cable bundled with some sketchy usb-c accessory. if you do, throw it out. but any standalone cable sold as a cable will do data transfer. the USB-C cables that only carry power and not data is an imaginary problem.

It's moreso things like PD, is it 480Mbits or is it 5Gbit or is it 10 or 20 or 40. What's the voltages, does it support PD 2.0 oh wait is it 3.0 or 3.1?

To be fair, it's been a number of years since I've tried to purchase cables, so perhaps just grabbing the Anker result at the top will net you most of these features. I just remember having to dig and not getting clear answers one way or another which is the spirit of my question.

in practice, in my daily life, all USB C cables work the same. a couple years ago i got one bundled with a device that didn't support some feature, and so i put it in the garbage. problem solved. since then, all my cables work all the time in whatever device i plug them into.

I haven't heard of a phone coming with a charge-only cable. Especially because that cable is usually used for syncing to a computer (iOS)/transferring data from an old phone (Android).

Unless an included cable came with a hard disk, monitor or eGPU, you can be reasonably sure it is USB 2 speeds. If it didn’t ship with a computer either, it is probably 30W max.

Finding a truly power-only USB C cable is difficult but not impossible. It's a special order.

Yes it is.

The spec could have been written such that different capabilities were reflected with different physical characteristics. That is exactly what standards exist to do.

Even if we pretend spec writers wouldn't ever have predicted the proliferation of crappy cables before publishing it, this is not a new problem with USB.

It is absolutely a choice made by the USB Implementers Forum.

And the cheap knockoff brands would have just violated the spec written that way like they violate the current spec.

This is why some things that have a C port won't charge on a C-C cable, but will on a A-C cable, because they don't actually talk to say they need power, but the A port will provide some power regardless, but a C port won't.

Power-only cables should be specified to have a different connector. Vastly different speeds should have a different connector. It should be physically impossible to stick the wrong kind of cable in.

Third parties will make out-of-spec cables no matter what. Some of the ways that Apple has addressed this is the "Made for" program which goes back even to the iPod. And the devices themselves detecting and showing an "Accessory may not be supported" error message, again going back to the iPod.

Nothing attracts downvotes like criticism of Apple. Their decisions are guided by the hand of the divine, so anyone that won’t follow is clearly an unworthy heathen.

An FYI, Lightning (released 2012) predates USB-C (1.0 specs published 2014) by a couple years. I'm unclear on how Apple was able to choose Lightning instead of USB-C given that timeline.

Now it just felt like the hardware is wasted on iOS. I still have the old Android phone, and instinctively use that rather than dealing with iOS. Next device is definitely going to be an android.

And wireless powerbanks for when going outside.

And no data option with them.

No kids with android. No wife, husband, whatever with android. No friends with android. Just that trusty ole iphone and airpods.

Plus no iPad, no laptops with USB-C chargers, no battery banks with USB-C inputs/outputs, no other ereaders with usb-c, no USB-C desk fan, no USB-C headphones...

Must be interesting.

> no USB-C desk fan

Are you, uh, powering a desk fan off your phone?

No, but I power it with a USB-C cable.

And with a phone having USB-C I can just use the same to power my phone when I want. Or power my phone from a powerbank without another cable specially made for this brand of phone.

He could just be single...

For example I know of https://shiftscreen.app which is like a fake desktop environment, and the Microsoft RDP client added it last week. I think Github Codespaces or any of those services could probably make a pretty usable experience. Just plugging in the phone in your usb-c monitor and get to coding, could be pretty sweet in some scenarios.

[0]: If you just mirror the screen you'll get black bars and the resolution won't be optimal etc, but apps can render directly to the external display customising the resolution for that monitor. Like how Photos.app behave, not showing the app chrome on the external display. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/windows_and_...

All USB-C cables must support USB 2.0 480 Mbps data transfer, at minimum. There’s no such thing as a USB-C cable that doesn’t support data.

To be clear, “juice jacking” is not a thing anymore, but people are still foolishly worried about it so there’s a market.

https://www.amazon.com/PortaPow-NA-USB-C-Data-Blocker/dp/B08...

Generally speaking any documented cases of juice jacking happening are just red teams doing PoCs.

It's too esoteric & expensive to be viable at any scale, but it's definitely functional.

[0] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9474274

When I say unsubstantiated rumor, this is what I’m talking about.

I'm aware. As I said above:

> any documented cases of juice jacking happening are [...] PoCs

You mentioned "code execution bugs" - what is that exactly to you? I presume you don't count HID emulation, so I'd be interested in what exactly does count.

They didn’t get anything unexpected to happen on the device. You really should read the paper, it’s a masterclass in making nothing sound like something.

It’s a favorite boogeyman of the “nation state actors are under your bed” crowd. Which is stupid because they all recommend avoiding public charging and would they be doing that if they were siting on high-quality exploits?

There’s a reason NSO doesn’t target USB, and it’s not because they enjoy creating VMs in the image decoder.

The point is it isn't viable at any scale - nation states advise avoiding public charging because employees of companies they subcontract have been individually targetted. They're not going to be doing any indiscriminate mass exploitation of the general public with it though.

You’re thinking of BadUSB or OMGCable.

1) which is a totally different attack 2) not especially applicable to smartphones 3) very much a thing that happens in real life (I have responded to incidents where one was used)

Lastly, there are plenty of CVEs issued for “feature abuse”, that’s a meaningless distinction.

Umm. Yes? I think this supports the opposite point than the one you’re trying to make. Apparently you’re too ignorant to grasp that.

I believe at least the CC connection needs to be intact for a conformant power adapter or device to even output any voltage for charging for a C-to-C cable.

It might be possible to omit the D+ and D- wires, but that disqualifies many legacy charging protocols as well.

* Data (this one is fairly obvious) * Power (since the CC wire in the cable is missing, and a compliant USB-C power source will refuse to output power unless the CC wire is terminated on the other end which signals what type of device it is)

You'd need at _least_ the CC wire as well.

if you can't walk into the store and pick up a usb-c cable (because we've agreed that cable sold at the checkout counter isn't a real usb-c cable) then why does this standard matter?

Same thing with the sideloading, it's not enough that android lets you do it, apple's business model centered around the iphone as a secure endpoint has to be completely outlawed.

kinda seems the android idea just isn't resilient enough to stand on its own in the market without government intervention to literally outlaw competition with it. given how obtuse and anti-consumer the USB-IF body tends to be, this probably won't end well in the long run.

Standards and interop are good. If the "free market" refuses to align on that value I'm happy for another mechanism to force it to happen. Judging from this thread, I'm not alone in that.

Not everybody is libertarian here, many are pragmatic, and are not dogmatic when a regulation is good.

For example, we also don't lament how there are standards in power plugs, and we don't have to juggle with 20 competing power outlets from different companies in our own country for the benefit of the "free market". That's for starry eyes "ideal over utility" libertarian types.

Or, like, you know...it's just a charging cable.

I remember Apple intentionally selling non-USB conforming cables for the keyboard on the early iMacs. There was a little notch in the USB cable which meant that it couldn't plug into a standard USB port. The urban legend at the time was that it also meant that they didn't have to include the USB logo on the cable, better matching Steve's aesthetic preferences.

I do have an Apple Thunderbolt cable which supports charging (of course), but it was a separate purchase. The Thunderbolt cable looks similar but is a bit thicker, and has the Thunderbolt logo printed on the connectors at each end.

USB A-C cables are entirely separate, there is no CC line, only a fixed always-on Vcc pin at 5V.

Just got a fourth (shorter, different from MacBooks) one with my new iPad, it has data too, which I just used yesterday to restore the encrypted local backup from my previous iPad and perform a new local backup. I bet the cable shipped with these new iPhones is the same as with the USB-C iPad ones.

Every iPhone with USB C has DisplayPort alternate mode, it was not particularly hard to do because all these Apple Axx SoC have a DisplayPort output just in case it lands in an Apple TV later.

I hope your assumption is correct and they added this, including the mouse and keyboard capability.

Why not a USB-A to USB-C cable? The vast majority of existing chargers and computer/console/car ports are USB-A.

Seems like this is forcing people to buy USB-C chargers.

(Current) MacBooks don't have USB-A.

IDK why Apple supplies these tbh. They are crap, break easily and are far too short.

Invest in good 6ft kevlar braided cables with stainless steel pins. They'll last you years.

Did you know that the microphone on the wired Apple earbuds don’t work on anything other than Apple devices? Well, one nice thing about the adaptors is that they allow you to use those earbuds on any computer with a USB-C port. I’ve avoided buying new headsets thanks to them.

USB audio adapters are barely even a thing, and the Lightning dongles often suck ass. I mean nearly-unusable sound quality, with weird hiss blasting because of some defective automatic gain function (for example; that was a Belkin).

Getting rid of the headphone jack was indefensible, but people putting up with it was even worse. Worst of all is cheerleading for that anti-customer, anti-quality move.

It doesn't fit a charger, but it should be able to use hubs now.

Qi/MagSafe helps with this

Oh, then you need to run another wire for the audio. Whereas with the ancient 30-pin iPod port, you got an audio line out AND power in. And the cool thing about that one is that it was a true line-out: The volume control didn't affect it, so you didn't have to dick around with the volume on two devices (the player and the car radio).

I bought the Lightning-to-30-pin adapter from Apple, and it duplicates all of that. You get the audio line out and power in. A cheap Y cable with USB for power and 1/8" plug for audio solves everything. As far as I know, it's the only solution that Apple has ever sold for a problem it deliberately created. And I doubt anyone, statistically, is even aware of it.

Neither of the other two vehicles in our household have Bluetooth at all, but they both have aux inputs. Bluetooth is a shitty workaround to intentional, anti-consumer stupidity. Just as almost every car (even cheap-O rental cars) integrated auxiliary audio inputs, Apple removed the audio output from their best-selling music player (the iPhone). And when gutless consumers allowed them to get away with it, everybody else followed suit and now we've regressed decades.

Twenty years ago I built an iPod dock into my car, into which I could plop my iPod (and later iPhone) and get power into the phone and audio directly into the stereo system. The phone charged, and delivered good audio quality. As a bonus, it did so without the need to dick around with two volume controls, since the 30-pin connector had a proper (fixed) line-level audio output that didn't vary with volume adjustments on the phone.

This is a level of convenience and performance that very few people enjoy now, and that is pathetic. Manufacturers have intentionally degraded so many of our consumer-electronics experiences with no payoff for us, and very questionable payoff for them.

Speakers use Bluetooth or a lightning jack in a cradle.

Finally Apple's switched to USB-C so that we can cut down on cable waste!

They should have just included a usb-c adapter. Unlike PC peripherals, phone chargers get plugged/unplugged many times every day. It's very easy with android phones for the connector stick thingy on the phone to get loose or damaged.

This feels like a government sponsored enshitification.

Why can't people just get android and let apple be. Why do some people get to force consumer standards other consumers don't like. Android can run on any type id purpose built mobile device.

So long as they are not being anti-competitive, who cares if apple uses PoE to charge phones even lol. Leave my capitialism alone!

I'm sure it happens to some people but it can't be a big issue or I (as the "IT-guy") would have heard about it.

Currently my phone charges mostly with the second notebook charger I got from work or one of those cheapish Anker PD bricks.

I don't think people earnestly and legitimately think usb-c should be used for everything, and the cost of doing so is incredibly high (despite it being rather convenient if all your cables are $25 10gbps/240w 3-meter cables or whatever), it's just a convenient wedge for android fans to argue against iphone.

again, ask those same people what they think of the usb-c philosophy on macbooks and boy you're gonna get an earful. the common factor is always "this guy really hates apple" not "this guy really likes usb-c". they never do, when the chips are down.

I do have a (non-Apple) USB-C only laptop for work currently and... while I'd like a handful of other ports directly on there from time to time, it's kind of a marvel how much of a "dock" situation you get out of a single USB-C port and a cheap hub with PD passthrough. One plug and I have mouse, keyboard, monitor, plus more, and it works fine on Linux, the same exact thing can get plugged into a Mac if I occasionally use one and have all the same features... it's pretty great.

I do have to use USB-C to A adapters now and then, mostly for dealing with embedded systems work, but it's not a big deal - almost all of that happens at my desk anyway.

USB-C has a real pain point when it comes to cable compatibility. It's _not_ a panacea. But those are mostly problems I encounter on bigger computers, such as "oh, my 2TB external SSD seems really slow", and not problems I encounter on my phone. I use a Pixel phone for historical reasons and I love that I can use the same charger and cable to charge my phone and my MBP. My wife has an iPhone, an MBP, and an iPad Pro. Her phone is the only device that needs lightning still. Good riddance!

In Lightning the sturdy bit is the cable and the wobbly bit that grabs it is in the device.

In USB-C the sturdy bit is in the phone and the wobbly bit is in the cable.

It's the wobbly bit that breaks.

USB-c ports are less durable and cables more durable.

It’s about which end has thinner pins

No longer have to think about a separate cable for phone charging, can plug your iPhone in for some juice wherever.

That’s basically all that really matters.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/12/apple-adds-usb-3-speeds-to...

Even as an Android user, I looooove those Airpods. They're so much more comfortable than the Android ones

Different colors and lossless audio, there’s the home run

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MTJV3AM/A/airpods-pro