News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sydd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:03PM (#32463411)
Yep, some are so shitty that the whole product category becomes garbage. We went on an adventure with blenders:

1. We bought a Bosch hand blender (maxomixx) because it looked sturdy and was priced near the top at the mall -- thought that the brand and the price tag would guarantee that it would last. It broke after 8 months, turns out that the coupling between the mixer and the body is made of plastic that wore off. I called the Bosch service hotline, they told me that the whole body is one "part" that I can buy for ~80% of the original price.

2. Went back to the mall looking for one with metal coupling, turns out there is NONE. All of them are garbage with the same fault point. But luckily there is a wide selection of standing blenders, where some of them had much more massively looking, metal gears. Bought one from Electrolux. It broke after 3 months, this time the bearing on the bottom of the blender cup started leaking the grease into our food...

3. Gave up trying to get a blender from the mall, bought a Vitamix for 7x the price, which we're happy with for the last 3 years.

Yes, there is plenty of planned obsolence out there, and one of the greenest things you can do is buy premium stuff that will last you a lifetime (if you can afford it :/ )

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by azza2110 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:12PM (#32463507)
I'd happily pay 5x the price of the cheapest product available, if I knew I was getting a higher quality product with a longer lifetime.

However, I can never tell if this 5x premium actually gets me a better core product, or just gets me better branding, advertising, aesthetics, and/or superfluous features.

So I usually just buy the cheapest and hope for the best.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ygra on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:20PM (#32463582)
In Germany there's an independent organisation, Stiftung Warentest [−4], that anonymously buys various products in stores and tests them quite rigorously. Some may say perhaps a bit too well (including things like the manual, how easy it is to set up a large appliance, or whether toxic chemicals are used in parts that are handled), but overall they seem to do a very good job. Testing and scoring methodology is published as well. I trust them a lot more than Amazon or YouTube reviews or some random blog that got the product sent by its manufacturer.

[−4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiftung_Warentest – the article also has a few pointers to international, similar organisations near the bottom.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Gurgler on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:19PM (#32464102)
There is a similar organization in the USA: Consumer Reports. It used to be a magazine, now I believe it's just a website. Entirely funded by subscription - and not advertisement or other sponsorship - they tackle entire categories of consumer goods in the USA, rigorously testing and ranking competing products across many metrics.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:37PM (#32464210)
They are also incorruptible.

If they give your product good marks, you are not allowed to mention it in your marketing (Not sure how they enforce it; maybe they stop reviewing your stuff).

I worked at a company that regularly got top marks from them, and our Marketing folks would have fits, because they couldn't mention it.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by alamortsubite on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:27PM (#32464491)
Sounds great, but Consumer Reports definitely has a checkered past. Read about the Suzuki Samurai debacle, in which they methodically manipulated their tests (strictly for that vehicle, and not any of the others in its class that they were simultaneously evaluating), with the goal of destroying the vehicle's reputation.

https://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-a-black-eye-for-co...

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mapt on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:10PM (#32465118)
I'm not sure what the point is of linking to a reference that also features pieces titled:

'The media lied to you about COVID-19 – TAKE ACTION NOW'

'Critical Race Theory in schools, take action now!'

'Gender activists are politicizing the dictionary: TAKE ACTION NOW'

'Stand up for Rush – TAKE ACTION NOW'

'VOX buries the truth'

'CNN admits Hunter Biden ‘a real problem’ for Joe Biden, not ‘a right-wing media story’'

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Accuracy_in_Media

I am less confident about either your contention or about the position you are attacking than about the idea that this particular website is going to lie to me about it.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:50PM (#32465341)
Why does anyone need to stand up for Rush? It was a great band and not really controversial, plus they disbanded years ago because the drummer died. They don't exist any more, just like Led Zeppelin no longer really exists (also because the drummer died, coincidentally).
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by AlchemistCamp on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:21AM (#32466790)
Just four days ago they played at Red Rocks with Matt Stone on drums for South Park's 25th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lel5JGJfwqQ

RIP Neil Peart

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 22, 2022 @12:33AM (#32547369)
That's not really Rush, just like the surviving Led Zeppelin players playing a concert with Jason Bonham isn't really LZ. The guest drummer isn't an official band member in either case, just a guest musician. The band itself just doesn't exist; now it's "the surviving members of band X". Pink Floyd is the same way; they disbanded after their keyboardist died.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dreamcompiler on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:17PM (#32465477)
Spock: Captain we need to send down a landing party to investigate the radiation leak.

Kirk: Send some red shirts.

Spock: They're all in Agile training today.

Kirk: Do we have any rock drummers?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by chiefalchemist on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:14AM (#32468225)
She's Buying the Stairway to Heaven TAKE ACTION NOW
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justin66 on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:02AM (#32468144)
Led Zeppelin should reunite with the deceased drummer’s son playing drums - TAKE ACTION NOW
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dctoedt on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:09AM (#32469887)
> Led Zeppelin should reunite with the deceased drummer’s son playing drums

That's kind of how it worked when Zep was one of the recipients of the Kennedy Center Honors a few years back, with Ann and Nancy Wilson + Jason Bonham, son of John, + others doing Stairway to Heaven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFxOaDeJmXk

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ConceptJunkie on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:55AM (#32469073)
Jason Bonham made a couple of fun records in late 80s/early 90s with his group "Bonham". I'd be up for seeing a reunion.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by philwelch on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:16PM (#32465471)
It was ridiculous how long it took for them to be enshrined in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but that finally happened a few years back.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:46AM (#32466259)
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a complete joke, and has nothing to do with real Rock and Roll music. They regularly induct musicians and performers who have absolutely nothing to do with Rock. It's best to just ignore the whole institution.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sideshowb on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:26AM (#32467130)
That was a bizarre gardening accident.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by tablespoon on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:23PM (#32474077)
Who cares, it's easy? I did my part: I just stood up and went to the bathroom.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by switchbak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:27PM (#32465220)
I'm still not sure why I'm standing up for Rush, I don't even like the band, but I took action. Immediately!
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ConceptJunkie on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:53AM (#32469047)
Hey, I love Rush! "Hemispheres" is my favorite album by them!
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dijonman2 on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:57PM (#32472213)
All sound like accurate headlines in today’s political landscape.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by safety1st on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:10AM (#32466382)
So the website also publishes right wing propaganda. Does that invalidate the claims in the article he linked? Did you read the article before formulating your opinion?

This is basic critical thinking, you don't have to be as shallow as many readers of that website probably are, you're just choosing to be.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mapt on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:50AM (#32467311)
If somebody writes for you a long piece featuring many pages of text and references, quoting lawsuits and making numerous reasonable-seeming inferences throughout...

The opportunity they have to lie to somebody who is unfamiliar with the subject is immense. Falsehood could be hiding in any of a thousand places, and it could easily require you to hire a team of experts for weeks to find it and conclusively debunk it, line by line. It may well require decompiling what is functionally or literally the source code behind the piece to dismiss one's suspicions. "Basic critical thinking" is not trivial against a determined adversary.

Whether to take the claims within on face value depends on your purpose and on what you know of the writer. In this case, it is very easy to become quite familiar with this motivation and ethics of the writer in under a minute by clicking around the website, and come to the reasonable conclusion that this is a place that generally attempts to deceive their reader to secure material gain for their patrons & movement, and there are likely deliberate lies somewhere in the body of the piece. You don't even need to read the body.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rsynnott on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:53AM (#32468521)
In general, if someone cites a wacky propaganda website as evidence for something, I'm going to assume that they're doing this because there's no proper evidence. I suppose occasionally this isn't the case, and they've just made a bizarre choice on what to link, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Indeed, the real story would appear to be rather more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Motor_Corp._v._Consumer....

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by emsixteen on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:49AM (#32466915)
Are you really wondering why someone is skeptical of an article on a website which is already clearly willing to publish falsehoods?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by headsoup on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:52AM (#32468498)
Sure it's stupidly sensationalized, but most of those statements listed are true.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Jerrrry on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:40AM (#32470279)
All of those are objectively true.

Please list one of those that are false, so you can be educated.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eesmith on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @02:02AM (#32479648)
> that gets little media attention

It did not get little media attention. Indeed, the lawsuit got rather a lot.

> AIM has submitted an amicus brief in the case, arguing that Suzuki should be allowed to present its evidence to a jury. It is hard to understand how any judge could honestly rule that the evidence in this case does not prove that the defendant knew that its claim that the Samurai “rolled over easily” was false.

The source definitely has a dog in this hunt.

Who are we to believe, a partisan in the lawsuit, or the trial judge? And why?

It's very likely that AIM's goal is to present the best facts in their argument, and ignore or minimize other factors. Or as CU put it (quoting https://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19970422/pres... ): "First it was the cigarette makers, now it's an automobile manufacturer. Different industries, same desperate tactics. Throw up a smoke screen, hurl ludicrous charges, and falsely claim (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that their product is safe -- all to avoid liability for defective and dangerous products." ...

> "We welcome and invite NHTSA to evaluate our honesty and integrity. Courts have done so and found unanimously that our methodology was beyond reproach. For example, the U.S. Court of Appeals in New York -- one of the nation's most highly respected courts -- has said that our work 'exemplifies the very highest order of responsible journalism.'"" ...

> "On the other hand, Dr. Pittle said, in a decision that the U.S. Supreme Court refused to review, a Federal Court of Appeals stated that Suzuki and its attorneys "engaged in an unrelenting campaign to obfuscate the truth."

> "The truth that was revealed despite Suzuki's cover-up is that Suzuki knew -- prior to first selling the car in the U.S. -- that the vehicle had a 'rollover problem' and that General Motors refused to sell the car because its evaluation demonstrated the danger of rollover," Dr. Pittle said.

Do you really expect HN readers to act like trial court judges and decide which of these two partisans are correct, and dig through decades old material to offer a point-by-point rebuttal?

If the evidence is so clear-cut, why did Suzuki and CU end up with a rather mundane settlement?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by groby_b on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:22AM (#32469309)
Basic critical thinking is "if the publication lies in every other article, the expected value of this one additional article is close to zero".

Critical thinking does not require you to carefully parse every bit of garbage on the planet.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hn_go_brrrrr on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:52PM (#32464646)
I hadn't heard about this, thanks for the link. I did a little digging and it doesn't appear be quite as clean cut as that article says. For instance, check out https://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19970422/pres... (a CR press release), where they mention internal Suzuki documents acknowledging the rollover issue.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by alamortsubite on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:44PM (#32464986)
I've read the text of the lawsuit. As you mention, this is a press release, so I'm highly skeptical of it. Video documentation of CR's manipulation of the tests is on YouTube. It's wild stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Bv9WL3vpY
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hn_go_brrrrr on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:52PM (#32465707)
Best guess? CR fabricated their test results because they couldn't figure out how to replicate the real-life problems on their test course. Which is to say, both sides are in the wrong.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by delusional on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:28AM (#32466830)
Every review site "fabricates their test reults" thats the whole point. You create a test that documents your assistent.

The ruling on an appeal makes the argument better than i could.

> [The] først theory is that CU know it was probably lying because its employees tries to make the samurai flip and we're happy when they suceeded. The second is that CU purposely avoided the truth by failing to address a potential source of experimental error. Neither of these theories withstands serious scrutiny

The opinion end up concluding that the entire reason for changing the test setup, along with a description of the changes, was present in the article.

What a non-story.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Spooky23 on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:50AM (#32469660)
I think Consumer Reports has an opinionated editorial voice. But I think that’s inevitable in that line of work.

SUVs evolved to address the risks pointed out by CR and other entities. They mostly have wider wheelbases and lower centers of gravity.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by crotchrocketeer on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:43PM (#32464590)
Well, at least this wasn’t in the “pretend it’s better direction” so it’s a at least still reliable in helping pick good quality.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by alamortsubite on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:39PM (#32464951)
Not if you were trying to decide between the Samurai and the other vehicles CR was "evaluating" (a Wrangler and the Bronco II). Internally, CR's testers praised the Samurai as having the best handling of the bunch, but their editor made sure the public never heard this.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by delusional on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:31AM (#32466844)
What are you talking about? The original review literally mentioned: "Under the touch of our drivers, all four utility vehicles got through the course at 52 mph or better. The Suzuki Samurai was actually more maneuverable than the others, since it's so much smaller and lighter"

Tell me again how it was some cover up. They literally published your argument along with the review.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by TheRealDunkirk on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @07:32AM (#32481495)
They might be ethical, but they don't "live" with appliances to really figure out what they're dealing with, either. I used Consumer Reports' recommendation to buy a full set of appliances for a new house about 18 years ago. I bought "GE Gold" washer, dryer, fridge, stove, microwave, and dishwasher.

Within 2 years, every single one had failures. For instance, the oven's convection fan failed in a month. The washer AND dryer completely failed within 3 years. I bought refurbished units from a local guy, and when I told him what I had, he didn't even want them to flip again.

I, too, resigned myself to the fact that, unless you pay for commercial-grade appliances, it's all crap, and you may as well just buy the cheapest thing at Lowe's, and replace it when it fails. The industry deserves all the loss of trust they have earned.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by grepfru_it on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:59AM (#32470512)
I’ve had great success with them, my vacuum is going strong after 13+ years, washer and dryer great after 9 years. But I’m still harboring negative feelings about their car reviews. They marked the 2013 Ford Edge as a great vehicle with minimal flaws, but when they reviewed the 2014 Ford Edge they found an array of problems and lowered the score. While I was researching and shopping for my Ford Edge I found the 2013 and 2014 were exactly the same cars. I think they enhanced the weld points for ANCHOR points to support 60lbs instead of 45lbs, but that was the extent of changes.. small and incremental. Yet CR faulted them for excess road noise, stiff suspension, and reliability. I test drove both mode years and they both performed and sounded exactly the same. Major parts including suspension were interchangeable as well. We went with the 2013 to save money before the CR reviews for 2014 came out. It made me realize their reviews are not consistent, especially when Tesla Model S went from having top marks to all of a sudden being scored very low. These are not cars that drastically changed between the years, so just buyer beware YMMV

FWIW, I do love my Ford Edge and it is still the daily driver for our household

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Tagbert on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @03:15PM (#32487435)
You do need to distinguish between their reviews (which are done by CR internal people and reflect their values and judgement) and the ratings which are done by surveying CR subscribers who are owners of the products.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by tomohawk on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:14AM (#32467848)
I'm a member of CR, but they obviously have their biases and blind spots.

Sometimes they start with a premise they want to prove instead of just providing a straight review of the products. They may do this by selecting the criteria (key performance metrics), for example.

Sometimes, they just don't competently evaluate the products because they fail to take into account real world consumer needs.

The quality of reviews in CR these days doesn't hold a candle to what CR used to provide, but I remain a member because even a weak signal is better than the other random stuff out there like Amazon reviews.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nobodyofnote on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:31PM (#32465547)
They actually do allow you to mention it in marketing; I've worked with them for a consumer product. What you can't do is use it in "paid" marketing.

Emails, social media posts, website landing pages, collateral in-store/retail is all fully acceptable. You can also pay additional fees to them for additional materials to use in communications.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by pandaman on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:31PM (#32465548)
It is apparently allowed to put a link to the review, saying "Check out how CR reviewed us" e.g. https://www.lg.com/us/laundry
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by game-of-throws on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:11PM (#32464409)
Another similar site is https://www.rtings.com/. They do very scientific, thorough quality tests. I've only used them to buy monitors so far, but it looks like they're starting to branch out from tech -- they have new categories for blenders and vacuums.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ghostpepper on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:16PM (#32464806)
Hopefully they don't go the same path as the Wirecutter. Started out great and small and independent and slowly started watering down reviews as they branched into more and more areas. They are now owned by the NYTimes and the quality of the reviews is much more hit and miss.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by squeaky-clean on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:18PM (#32465161)
rtings is trying to push a subscription now. I was looking up wireless mice latency, and after looking at 5 mice, I had used up all my free views of "advanced metrics" like click latency.

rtings does good work, I'd pay a flat fee for it. But a subscription for a website I check every 2-3 years when I'm upgrading some tech? I'll just clear my cookies.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nordsieck on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:57PM (#32465730)
> I was looking up wireless mice latency, and after looking at 5 mice, I had used up all my free views of "advanced metrics" like click latency.

If you're specifically looking at mice, you might want to check out RocketJumpNinja. The reviews are pretty biased towards suitability for FPS, but they are quite in depth, and the reviewer is pretty knowledgeable.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by driverdan on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:34AM (#32468862)
Wirecutter has always been hit or miss.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by TylerE on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:34PM (#32464193)
Their conclusions are somewhat suspect sometimes though… with weird qualifications for “best” that often barely effect actual functioning. Like, heavily weighting quietness over power.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wtallis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:30PM (#32464512)
Are you referring specifically to their car reviews? Those seem to regularly attract criticism for not being more like traditional car enthusiast-oriented reviews.

I think that's largely due to car enthusiasts having insufficient self-awareness about the degree to which their priorities differ from those of mainstream consumers. PC gamers and PC building enthusiasts are also frustratingly prone to this kind of thing. (I spent several years reviewing PC hardware for a living, which included constantly fielding comments from readers who seemed to be genuinely unable to understand how their could be a market for low-end components.)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by throwaway09223 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:42PM (#32464585)
I remember reading their computer reviews a few decades ago and being gobsmacked at how ignorant their process and conclusions were.

I assume that other articles have similar issues, and that I'm just unaware because they're not within my area of expertise.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by thaeli on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:00PM (#32465063)
CR's core failing is, on the surface, their greatest strength: they refuse to have any "special" contact with any manufacturers. Unfortunately, this also means that they don't ask, or listen, when their test procedures are nonsensical.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by 41b696ef1113 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:03PM (#32464719)
Last year, I was looking to upgrade my desktop. Found a review that was bemoaning a motherboard because it only had two M.2 slots. How many consumers use two, let alone would benefit from a third?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by fomine3 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:24PM (#32465201)
I have opposite bemoaning for recent motherboards: only one PCIe slot (x16) is directly connected to CPU (not via chipset). It's useless to have PCIe 5.0 x16 slot even for average consumer because 4.0 x8 is still enough for modern GPU for gaming and even if it become not enough, 5.0 x8 should be enough for foreseeable future. Lack of high bandwidth dedicated PCIe slots for other than GPU makes the PC less expandable, e.g. video capture, another GPU (not for SLI), 10GbE, HBA, etc...
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ziml77 on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:22AM (#32468752)
I hate it too. The allocation of PCIe lanes is garbage unless you spend $500 on a motherboard. We should have had the lanes divided better once we hit 4.0 speeds. At 5.0 speeds, it's absurd that 16 full-speed lanes would go to a single slot except for very specialist scenarios.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wtallis on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:25AM (#32470897)
Part of the problem is that it's quite difficult to get a PCIe 5.0 signal to travel further than the first slot while keeping the motherboard price reasonable by consumer standards.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nfriedly on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:52AM (#32470431)
I suspect that AMD & Intel push the motherboard manufactures in that direction. You can certainly get more high-speed PCIe slots if you get one of the higher-end product lines (Threadripper, Xeon, etc.)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by formerly_proven on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:51AM (#32466609)
Flexible I/O is one of those things Motherboard manufacturers reserve for the upper price ranges, unfortunately.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by fomine3 on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:59AM (#32466657)
Yeah sadly now. PCIe x8/x8 or x8/x4/x4 (bifurcation) from CPU was common in standard priced board like Z170X-UD3, but now requires mid-high priced board. More flexible slots (dynamic switch by PLX chip) is always for highends.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by NathanielK on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:08PM (#32465104)
Since the only thing consumers use full size PCIe slots for now is for a single GPU, extra M.2 slots isn't that big of an ask. One M.2 keyed for an interchangeable wifi card, one for NVMe storage, and then an extra one if you want to upgrade to more storage later. If you only have one keyed for storage, you're SoL when you buy a bigger one later and it's very inconvenient to move data over.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wtallis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:16PM (#32465151)
PC motherboard marketing and reviews usually don't count the WiFi card slot when tallying up the number of M.2 slots (since approximately zero motherboards are sold with an empty WiFi-type M.2 slot), so the complaint was most likely about not having more than two storage-type M.2 slots.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Dylan16807 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:15PM (#32465148)
It's not a big ask, but it's also quite unimportant. Adapter cards to put one M.2 card into a PCIe slot are in the $5 range, and better adapters will do four.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by linkdink on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:48PM (#32464279)
At least they're open about how they weighed their values. And they give you enough information to draw your own conclusions from your own values. Some people want to be told what's "best", and they've found a way to make everyone (minus one) happy.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by abawany on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:37PM (#32464551)
Consumers Report still has a magazine - I subscribe to it for a lower cost than the online access.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:56AM (#32466313)
I had a problem with them where their rating methodology for carpet cleaners was not adequate. So the cleaner with strongest cleaning capability was like 10th in the list, instead of first
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by cptnapalm on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:16AM (#32469957)
It's still a magazine. Source: I work at a library and put the September 2022 issue on the shelf last week.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mcphage on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:16PM (#32464805)
My dad always used Consumer Reports to pick products, and... I dunno, they didn't seem to be super great.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by switchbak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:33PM (#32465252)
I've seen some reviews for which I know a fair amount, and often the testing and rating rubric are ... Bewildering and unsophisticated. I love the idea of Consumer Reports a lot more than the actual thing itself.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mcphage on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:38PM (#32472773)
> I love the idea of Consumer Reports a lot more than the actual thing itself

Yeah, exactly. I really love the idea, but not the results.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Semaphor on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:54PM (#32465035)
My issue with them is twofold: a) The "testing too much" part, specifically things like how well translated the manual is, for example. I don’t care. And b), it’s a blackbox. There are no real details for how they arrived at the rating of some subsection.

ETM [0] is subscription funded and their tests are far more detailed, and they even show the data (e. g. power usage curves for a toaster, measured air replacement curves for a fan, etc.).

[0]: https://etm-testmagazin.de/

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ant6n on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:46AM (#32467281)
Perhaps the magazine is good, but the website doesn’t leave a good impression: I search for dehumidifier, and all I get is the info about one particular model being released, an article that reads more like an ad, without any testing done.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Semaphor on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:51AM (#32467322)
They recently (about a year ago) redesigned their website, and it’s a disaster. I have absolutely NO idea what they were thinking. Links aren’t working properly, and as usual for an SPA, it’s slower now. It’s even hard to actually navigate anywhere now.

Anyway, in this case, they simply have not tested any dehumidifiers.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by grog454 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:57PM (#32464337)
Do they do tear-downs and rate the engineering? That's pretty much the only way to determine how likey something is to last without using it for ten years.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mschild on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:44AM (#32467262)
I don't think they do tear-downs but they do stress test them extensively. Their reports also include their testing methods in detail. For washing machine testing, for example, they independently bought 3 of each model and ran each through 1840 cycles. That's equivalent to 3.5 cycles per week for 10 years. They checked how the machine held up in comparison to the beginning and if any repairs were needed.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sneak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:53PM (#32464648)
AvE does this on his YT channel, though only for hand tools and adjacent stuff (he did a Juicero once and it was utterly hilarious).
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by somewhat_drunk on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:42AM (#32465970)
Juicero teardown is one of the best youtube videos ever made.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by stevage on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:26AM (#32465893)
The Australia Choice magazine does pretty hefty stress tests. No tear downs though.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Cthulhu_ on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:05AM (#32469158)
> I trust them a lot more than Amazon or YouTube reviews or some random blog that got the product sent by its manufacturer.

Yeah same, those reviews are either bought, or made on a whim by people who aren't critical of what they buy - especially if the company or seller goad them into reviewing with giveaways or whatever. There will be good reviews, but they will be buried in the thousand+ mediocre ones.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by drekipus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:10PM (#32464026)
We have the same in australia too, called choice magazine. https://www.choice.com.au/
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nuker on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:07AM (#32467002)
And even better, OzBargain.com.au crowdsourced one liner reviews, surprisingly valid :)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by floydnoel on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:34PM (#32463712)
Thanks for sharing, this is great information. I definitely think that independent testing organizations are important for quality so it’s always great to hear of more of them
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by foobiekr on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:23PM (#32472545)
In the US, the closest example is Consumer Reports ( https://www.consumerreports.org/ ); there actually are a lot of these orgs worldwide. It's pretty cool.

They often are somewhat marginal at the edges - e.g., for computers. But otherwise they are useful for consumer products.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rahen on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:27PM (#32464148)
It seems common all across Europe, maybe the whole western world.

Here for France: https://www.60millions-mag.com/tests-comparatifs

(I just laughed as I see they even review fries brands, and sex toys...)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dopidopHN on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:30AM (#32467160)
Same stuff in France : 60 million de consommateurs.

They also provide help to launch class action. ( that exists differently than a US class action )

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by initplus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:29PM (#32464156)
This is the core issue that prevents reliable consumer products from becoming more widespread. Even if demand exists for more reliable consumer goods, consumers don't have the ability to actually evaluate reliability at the time of purchase.

Manufacturers can't justify producing a more reliable product at a higher price point, because there isn't really a way to get consumers to trust that it really is a more reliable product worthy of the price.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ericd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:44PM (#32464260)
There is a way, it’s the reputation that builds over time and is associated with your brand. It’s why many people buy Toyota by default. It’s why we paid 5x the price for a Miele vacuum (which are awesome, by the way). It’s just that most people either can’t or just won’t pay a significant premium for it, so those products tend to be niche.

Of course, many execs look at brand value as something to be harvested for short term gains to the value of their options, but that’s a different problem.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lazide on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:14PM (#32464790)
PE buying a brand to ‘harvest the brand value’ has become extremely common in tools, and has ruined a lot of things.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by tshaddox on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:03PM (#32465082)
They have more techniques too, like having store- or region-specific models that probably are all essentially the same but have different model numbers and slightly different feature sets just to make searching for reviews and price comparisons more difficult.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by NathanielK on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:10PM (#32465121)
Sometimes they aren't essentially the same, but instead different in invisible ways. DeWalt grinders at Canadian Tire used to use plastic parts where metal was typically used. Outside of the different SKU it was difficult to tell the difference.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lazide on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:11PM (#32473232)
Walmart is notorious for this - they push really hard on suppliers to reduce prices, and suppliers usually do so by cutting quality. However everyone still pretends it’s the same (including identical outside appearance).
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jabl on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:21AM (#32467879)
This so much. At least over here it's completely impossible to find reviews of whiteware (refrigerators, washing machines etc.), at most a handful on the local reseller homepage.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by saiya-jin on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:16AM (#32468242)
even TVs suffer from this - tons of european models have different numbering/code, and unless you are die hard fan who understands various manufacturers product lines year by year, looking for products in Europe based on ie US reviews can get tricky.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by phpisthebest on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:33AM (#32468348)
That is more to allow big box stores to advertise "price match" when they know no one else as the "exact same model"

See this Drill is DW345, we sell DW350, it is 5 better

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jabl on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:24AM (#32467902)
Absolutely, it's everywhere, not just in tools. Brand X known for quality decides to, well like you said, drop production cost and 'harvest the brand value'. Then after a while when the reputation is sullied, the same conglomerate / holding company launches another 'upscale' brand. Rinse and repeat.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dllthomas on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:40PM (#32464959)
I almost feel like it should be deemed fraud or false advertising, although I have no idea how we should draw the line and ultimately we probably shouldn't.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jamiek88 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:50PM (#32465017)
That was liking riding along in your mind as you constructed your thought! :)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by benj111 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:15PM (#32464430)
The problem then is if the brand cashes in on the reputation while moving production to China and using cheaper parts whilst charging the premium price still.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:55PM (#32464663)
In some sense, the longer the brand has been around, the less likely they are to pull an exit scam.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lazide on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:15PM (#32464795)
It’s the opposite in my experience - older brands have a hard time keeping up with newer trends and are more likely to be bought out by PE to ‘harvest value’, as they’re not as profitable right now.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:19PM (#32465167)
In order for something to become old, it has to have resisted attempts on its life so far.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lazide on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:51PM (#32465349)
That didn’t work out well for Craftsman (or Sears in general), Milwaukee, and a bunch of other brands!
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by phpisthebest on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:45AM (#32468427)
The tool market is an example of that not being the case

Craftsman, Portal Cable, Bosch, Stanley, the list goes on and on, of once independent brands that have been bought out by mass marketers to sell lower quality tools under those names

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lazide on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @02:53PM (#32487115)
Another point - there is a difference between being 'old' (a 40 year old veteran solder is 'old', for instance, even if they're still in extremely good physical condition), and being 'old' as in 95 years old and can barely get out of bed.

From a PE/market perspective, the sweet spot seems to be the 95 year old with a good reputation that still carries weight.

I imagine it's because of the good spread between current price and expected returns, as the 'old' brands this is done with aren't usually very profitable, if at all.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ericd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:30PM (#32464514)
Yeah, that's the exec short term gain thing. But it doesn't take too much research to check if that's happened before pulling the trigger, people are pretty vocal when that happens to their favorite brands.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by stevage on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:27AM (#32465901)
Yeah just look at the recent reviews of Dyson vacuum cleaners. People buying the reputation but the quality has gone to shit.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hgomersall on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:05AM (#32466690)
I used to work with a mechanical engineer that was formerly at Dyson and he was rather scathing of their design policies, the tolerances being calculated badly and so on. The effect is everything feels "a bit loose".
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wizofaus on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:36AM (#32468874)
Yep, I wouldn't buy Dyson again. If a manufacturer wants to preserve its reputation it shouldn't be making cordless vacuums with batteries that run out within 10-15 minutes.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:56PM (#32464670)
Not being able to trust brand reputation is the same problem, not a different problem.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nuker on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:34AM (#32467184)
Many execs have short term personal incentives, so short term gains suit fine.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by twoWhlsGud on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:27PM (#32475625)
Re Miele - my sample size of one dates to 1987 and still is my main vac. So at some point in the past they were probably quite good (or I got really really lucky). FWIW
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ericd on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:39PM (#32475766)
Ha awesome. Before I bought, I did some reading about vacuums that repair shops thought were good, Miele seemed to top the list at the time. It’s been great, despite suffering a decent amount of clumsiness-related abuse.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by slowmovintarget on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:34PM (#32465265)
It's not easy, but it can be done.

We found Miele for dishwashers. Zwilling for our toaster, JennAir for microwave...

We explicitly avoided "smart" anything. I shouldn't need to connect my refrigerator to wi-fi.

But we've watched the crap curve take hold on a bunch of product categories, especially U.S. brands. Hannah Anderson used to make good quality, reliable children's clothes that didn't wear out when you looked at them funny. Not any more. Other brands that used to make clothing that lasted 20+ years now makes thin garbage that might last a season. Many of these transitions were to "Made in China" manufacturing.

We went to replace a ten-year old electric coffee grinder and couldn't find one for less than $1700 that wasn't garbage. We switched to a hand grinder as the only reasonable alternative.

It is very frustrating to try to find things that will last. My parents bought one refrigerator, and it lasted for more than 30 years. Most of their stuff they were able to get once. Not every two or three years.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by switchbak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:53PM (#32465354)
I must disagree on the coffee grinder front. There's a great number of decent options well under your given price (I just took the plunge recently).

Brands like Ceado and Eureka make a bunch at various price ranges. 600 gets you a decent one, 1200 and you're well into very nice grinder territory (unless you wanna go all audiophile here).

There's not a ton to go wrong: good motor, bearings, a well designed adjustment mechanism and a good hopper design. Of those I'd really only expect the bearings and motor to die in any reasonable time frame.

If you're that concerned you could always get a commercial model. There's no way home use will kill one of those, but it'll just be big and impractical.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by slowmovintarget on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:16PM (#32465468)
We landed on commercial coffee grinders for any with motors. The hand mill we ended up with does much better for pour-over coffee than any of the electrics at roughly a tenth of the price and counter space. Only requires elbow-grease and some good hand-torque.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by chiefalchemist on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:13AM (#32468663)
Can I leverage your research for myself...Which hand grinder did you go with?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by yladiz on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:59AM (#32469774)
I'm not sure what the parent uses but I really enjoy using my Comandante Mark IV (which solves some issues with Mark III had, namely around body design). It's high quality, reliable, and consistent, and also easy to maintain since there's only a few parts that need cleaning. There are also a range of colors if you want something more eye popping. For me the only downside (besides price, it's around €275) is that I find the large logo on the side a little gaudy, but in practice it's not that bad.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by slowmovintarget on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:50AM (#32471220)
The Commandante is one of the ones we would have purchased, though it wasn't available when the pandemic was in full swing. The one that I ended up with was the BPlus Apollo hand-grinder (made in Taiwan).

Very sturdy, easy to use, easy to clean, and surprisingly quiet.

Random review: https://www.home-barista.com/blog/bplus-apollo-hand-grinder-...

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by slowmovintarget on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:52AM (#32471254)
The Kinu m47 was unavailable (fire in the factory, pandemic...).

Went with the BPlus Apollo. See my response below to yaldiz.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by switchbak on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @01:00AM (#32479363)
I do like a good hand grinder, used one for years (Commandante) until I got lazy and wanted a machine to do the work.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by claaams on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:33PM (#32465569)
The 20$ coffee grinder I got at target years ago still runs great...
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:48AM (#32466267)
I have one of those, newer than that, and the bearings are going out.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by matthewmcg on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @10:24AM (#32483153)
Has there been a change in Baratzza? The Virtuoso I bought a decade ago is built like a tank and has replacement parts available for consumables.

The one weakness it has is the plastic ring that holds the upper burr set. This appears to be intentionally designed to break as a sacrificial part if anything jams. Replacements are a few bucks.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lutorm on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:13PM (#32465143)
I don't agree with that. There is a way to clearly signal that you're standing behind the quality of your products: offer an outstanding warranty.

If I was choosing between brand A and twice as expensive brand B, and brand B said "we trust that our stuff will last so we offer a 10-year, no questions asked warranty", I would go for B in a heartbeat. (As long as it was a brand with some history so I can trust they don't just go out of business.)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:12AM (#32466399)
Some brands have gotten around this by offering a 10 years warranty*

* insert terms so onerous you’re very unlikely to claim, you have to ship the item on your own dime halfway across the world, if defect is deemed not covered (and you bet it won’t be) disposal at your expense or return as is at your expense, extended warranty void if you didn’t do $frivolousThing at time of purchase and not a day later, extended warranty doesn’t transfer to new owner, etc.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by fomine3 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:29PM (#32465231)
The problem is that the confident is just a confident by brand B, and possibly the warranty term is not decided from confident but from competitor's warranty term. Personally I don't want very long warranty term for some products (I came up with PC PSU 12yr warranty). Warranty increases product cost that I should pay finally, but some products never be used so long by me.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ouid on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:33PM (#32465253)
warranty has been replaced with AAS.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mellavora on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:49AM (#32466596)
Don't know that acronym, is is "a-hat as a service?"

like help lines which charge 80 cents/minute to not help you?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ouid on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:52AM (#32466613)
as a service already has 2 'a's.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by krisoft on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#32466768)
> because there isn't really a way to get consumers to trust that it really is a more reliable product worthy of the price

That is what warranties are for. You say it is reliable? Put it in writing how long you think it will keep working and what will you owe the customer if it ain’t so.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by salawat on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#32469143)
MTBF. The Engineer's secret way of measuring relative Quality.

MTBF is exec poison. Too high, and the customer doesn't come back, you see, or worse, it's too expensive to build! (According to finance).

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wizofaus on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:32AM (#32468838)
Warranties? If you're gonna charge 3 times more for a product, then you should be able to offer a warranty that's much better than that for lower spec equivalents. Yet that rarely seems to happen.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by switchbak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:38PM (#32465290)
I think there's a growing level of knowledge in some niches that's leading to higher quality items in some circumstances.

In power tools for instance, there's a number of YouTube channels that do high quality testing. In some cases some identified faults appear to have caught the eye of the manufacturer. Hopefully over time this feedback loop will result in higher quality products that still hit their price target.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by gnicholas on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:12PM (#32464413)
I've had a blendtec blender for nearly a decade, and recently the gasket at the bottom started leaking. When I looked up pricing for replacing the container, I found it was nearly half the cost of the whole unit.

The motor doesn't sound as good these days, so I considered replacing the whole thing. Fortunately after I wiggled the gasket it seemed to stop leaking!

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sgtnoodle on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:10PM (#32464762)
That gasket melted on mine after 1.5 years. I bought an Alterna-jar to replace it. It's a third-party jar with a significantly more robust bearing block.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by cudgy on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:29PM (#32463669)
Get a Vitamix. 5x the price and seems to last forever. In fact, there are even very old (decades old) used Vitamix’s on eBay that are still running and usually just need a new canister.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Ma8ee on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:51PM (#32463846)
But that only says anything about the units that were sold decades ago. It's very common that quality brands with very good reputation are bought by some investors, and then they start selling the same crap as everyone else, but to the premium price that their brand and reputation allow them to. And it works surprisingly long before the new crap they sell destroys their reputation. (I know nothing about Vitamix, they may still be great.)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by palijer on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:55PM (#32465365)
Vitamix is a private, family owned company.

Your statement would be correct for the majority of companies however, but Vitamix is actually distinct in that regard (currently)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by robotnikman on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:00PM (#32472262)
It seems like private family owned companies are the way to go when you want something with decent quality that will last.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by cudgy on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:01PM (#32465067)
You are absolutely correct. This happens far too often, but I don’t think that is the case with Vitamix … yet.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by bilegeek on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:03AM (#32465762)
Anecdotally, new units are about the same quality for a higher price than 10-15 years ago. Nothing objective, could be wrong; in my late-2000's case, it was from Costco, so maybe it was higher priced elsewhere.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rlaabs on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:55PM (#32463878)
Modern Vitamix benders (roughly within the last 8 years) have the same declining quality issues.

Newer models are typically much lighter. This means they now have far less internal material to reduce noise. I can't use mine without ear protection since it's about chainsaw level of noise. The reduced weight means I also need to hold onto it during use otherwise it will vibrate itself off the counter.

The company seems to be most interested in selling smoothie recipe subscriptions for their blender companion phone app. Aside from subscription selling the app is pretty much useless -- who wants a phone app to remotely control a blender?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by geodel on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:35PM (#32464926)
Seems like common problem. Some retarded React App developer gets hired. And now business is no longer making some solid, long lasting blenders but "Connected Healthy Solutions"®

I am sure some next generation developers are already demanding to install VSCode on fridges so one can code on Samsung Smart refrigerators screens.

Wouldn't it be great that while fridge telling about running short on Kale green also download a gigabyte of NPM garbage to display image of Kale green in a bag?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rodgerd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:38PM (#32465289)
> Some retarded

Do better.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by kikokikokiko on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:41AM (#32465962)
Retarded is a fine word to describe a person that is acting like he/she has a mental handcap. Americans are sooo annoying with the language policing mania, tou guys really need to chill.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by phpisthebest on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:49AM (#32468467)
Baseball used to be America's favorite pastime, Now it seems taking offense is the most common pastime...
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by arkadiytehgraet on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:12AM (#32466738)
I believe the parent was imploring GP to use stronger words more accurately depicting the aforementioned React App developer, such as "braindead" or similar.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rrix2 on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:09AM (#32466379)
Nah, you sound like a school kid when you write like that.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by cinntaile on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:39AM (#32466227)
People seem to use braindead nowadays. A clinical condition resulting from an accident, a stroke, ... such an improvement.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nuker on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:40AM (#32467223)
Some rodgerd
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by gnicholas on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:15PM (#32464424)
> who wants a phone app to remotely control a blender?

Here's an idea: if you find the blender to be too loud, go into a different room, close the door, and remotely trigger the blender with your smartphone app.

We put our blender in our pantry because we can close the door and blend without waking up the baby. Otherwise it (Blendtec) is too loud!

EDIT: to the downvoters, this was tongue in cheek. It would obviously be better for them to spend more money on soundproofing and less on a useless app!

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by 2muchcoffeeman on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:35PM (#32464536)
This is the worst part about all this smart phone junk and cooking. It's normalising leaving the room and then cooking something remotely a bit too much.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mlyle on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:47PM (#32465003)
It all depends. Getting notified for time consuming things is great.

Having my smoker self-manage its temperature and graph the amount of heat it's dumped in is nice. Checking on the temperature ramp of the sous vide is nice, too.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by gnicholas on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:01PM (#32465070)
Is blending time-consuming? I guess peanut butter takes a couple minutes, most blending is < 40s IME.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by mlyle on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:57PM (#32465369)
I was just speaking about those specific cases. Running the smoker is a 8-20 hour endeavor. Sous vide is 2-6 usually. Smart devices are kinda nice for this.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by xahrepap on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:40PM (#32463766)
For Christmas we replaced my moms vitamix. She had her last one for well over 20 years.

We’ve had ours for 8 years and it works like new and doesn’t smell like the motor is burning out like so many cheap blenders do.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hansvm on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:45PM (#32463810)
I can second this motion. I've used a lot of blender-like products of various advertised levels of quality, and Vitamix is the only thing I've seen that can take massive levels of abuse for ages.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by christophilus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:10PM (#32464027)
I can’t speak to the quality of the new ones, but mine is a decade old and still going strong.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by slowmovintarget on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:38PM (#32465284)
Breville seemed to be the better one to go with, but that was a while ago, too.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jghn on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:30PM (#32464519)
Worse yet, even some of the traditional "expensive, but built like a tank" companies are starting to shift to being "better branding, advertising" from your list.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lutorm on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:18PM (#32465159)
When investors put short-term profit ahead of long term brand viability...
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sneak on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:54PM (#32464653)
Blendtec, KitchenAid
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ConceptJunkie on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:51AM (#32469021)
Is it more sturdy and long-lasting? Or does it just have wifi capabilities that put your computer network at risk for no increase in value whatsoever?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by palijer on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:43PM (#32465310)
This is why I love the genre of teardown videos on YouTube. There is a while world of engineering minded folks tearing down basically everything on YouTube, and saying "what a piece of crap" or "such a brilliant engineered design"
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by xnx on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:19PM (#32465487)
For 5x price, you can probably get commercial grade.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by yourapostasy on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:52AM (#32470425)
> However, I can never tell if this 5x premium actually gets me a better core product, or just gets me better branding, advertising, aesthetics, and/or superfluous features.

For a wide range of consumables and gear that hackers of the physical world would probably like, check out Project Farm, protoolreviews, ToolGuyd, and of course AvE on YouTube.

For kitchen gear, check out America's Test Kitchen.

I hang out in r/bifl but it isn't as good as it used to be for my personal tastes, as there isn't as much of an emphasis on repairability as I'd prefer.

I wish there was a trend of someone like AvE doing a teardown of junk-quality consumer gear, then by replacing certain parts like bad capacitors, plastic gears, etc., turning it into much higher-quality equipment, and open-sourcing those small parts' design and manufacturing specs.

One hack I employ is I go straight to the servicing departments and find the service technicians, and lately I only go to commercial B2B offerings. They are usually more than happy to tell you which manufacturers and product lines are easiest to diagnose and service (and whether that conjunction of characteristics leads to reliability), have a reliable supply of parts, maintain that parts supply the longest, and have retained all those characteristics the most years. It is no more than a 10-15 minute conversation most service technicians are happy to have.

They will be especially happy to talk with you if you ask them how you can plan to accommodate their service visits more pleasant and efficient to work in. HVAC techs in particular will trade around site porn of customers who planned ahead, put in a proper-sized and sited pad easy to roll up to with all their equipment in their work van, with provisions for ample shade that doesn't obstruct the equipment airflow. They will <squee> over that more than tween girls over the heartthrob du jour.

Then I talk up staff at businesses who have to use the equipment every day to find out the most annoying aspects of using that equipment to determine whether I can put up with those idiosyncracies myself.

There are some manufacturers I will absolutely not even consider in the US for some equipment, for example. Samsung refrigerators; they are not designed to last past the warranty, not designed to be easily diagnosed and serviced, and their parts supply network reflects that. There are some categories of equipment I have absolute requirements no matter where I am in the world. Rigging gear where a failure puts life and safety at risk I will outright refuse to purchase and use from anywhere but Japan, Germany, and the US from long-standing manufacturers making it in those nations. I will pay the price to import it to where I am and wait for as long as it takes to get through customs. I'm beginning to stop using Amazon and switching to direct from manufacturer, distributors, or retailers listed on the manufacturer's web site; the SKU commingling issue has gotten out of hand, and Amazon's poor inventory control has robbed whatever unique value proposition their logistics arm painstakingly built up.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ygra on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:11PM (#32463488)
Interestingly, the Bosch food processor we have has a plastic coupling between the motor and the meat grinder attachment on purpose, so if anything gets stuck, it's a 5 € plastic part that's broken, instead of a more expensive and less accessible one. So a plastic coupling alone doesn't sound that alarming in general.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by phpisthebest on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:53AM (#32468513)
That is only true if the parts are available, often times companies will change the design annually and discontinue the parts making that "easy fix" a time bomb waiting to break and now you have to replace the entire thing

3D printing could resolve some of that, but brands have been known to issue take downs or other legal threats over people sharing models so....

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rodgerd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:40PM (#32465295)
The folks over at Lens Rentals have an excellent blog where they tear down lenses and cameras; they've discussed previously that plastics and metals have strengths and weaknesses, and encouraged people not to simply assume that plastic components in a lens tell you anything about quality or durability.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by s0rce on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:25PM (#32463625)
I think Kitchenaid's have that too, I remember repairing one years ago with my dad.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sokoloff on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:14PM (#32464055)
They do. I've replaced ours twice in 15 years of ownership (and have 3 more replacements in the junk drawer, since they came 5-for-$10: ASIN B07Y7S33RF).

It's a pretty elegant design. Unfortunately, a lot of people (including my wife, initially) would be prone to concluding that the whole unit was “worn out and needed replacing”.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justinlloyd on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:13PM (#32464048)
Yes, they precisely have that. Have repaired three Kitchenaid mixers over the years, from different eras. Even in the higher end machines where it is almost all metal gears and parts, the helical gear box in those too is all plastic parts for easy and cheap replacement, and so that anything getting stuck doesn't burn out a more expensive elctrical motor.

I have an immersion blender that also has plastic gears, and even though the motor is sold as a single unit that is not an FRU, you can take it apart and service it with off-the-shelf gears you can source from eBay.

The two coffee grinders I have, high quality metal burrs, plastic gearing, for the same reason.

My higher quality power tools- track saw, drills, etc, all plastic gearing, metal everywhere else.

It just makes sense when it comes to repairs, though can be frustrating when they strip out.

That said, most consumer crap made today is complete shite.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by runnerup on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:05AM (#32468162)
> the helical gear box in those too is all plastic parts for easy and cheap replacement, and so that anything getting stuck doesn't burn out a more expensive elctrical motor.

I preferred metal "shear pins" for this function ... much easier to find replacements for at the local hardware store.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justinlloyd on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:54PM (#32475947)
Now that I agree with. Unfortunately their usage in lower end products, and also the move to lighter weight products with higher torque due to brushless motors, seems to have reduced their usage. Maybe because they are an all-or-nothing failure point. Unless you really abuse the gear box, plastic gears don't tend to strip out all at once, they just get "worn" or "sloppy." That said, I think a lot of products are a race to the bottom in some regards.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:50AM (#32466279)
Your drills have plastic gears simply as a cost saving measure. Spend a bit more and you get powdered metal gears.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justinlloyd on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:53AM (#32467327)
Okay, I'll bite, tell me which drills I should be spending a bit more on?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:58PM (#32474608)
Not sure. I don't think drill manufacturers advertise these details often because they don't want to confuse consumers.

You can try to watch teardowns, like this DeWalt by Ave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHCS7JXfuv0

Gears at 16:40

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justinlloyd on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:45PM (#32475830)
Yeah, okay, you got nothing.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:34PM (#32476371)
What are you talking about? You claimed the plastic gears were used as a failsafe. That's not true, higher quality equipment uses metal gears. Drills already have fuses and overload detectors built in.

Go watch some teardowns of cheap stuff vs expensive stuff and stop being a jerk.

I'm not your mom. I'm not gonna explain everything AND shop for you.

[dead]
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:26PM (#32477625)
Too long to read. Some gears are nylon, yes, which is strong. I didn't get juvenile. I told you to watch teardowns. I don't keep a back catalog of every device with metal gearboxes, sorry.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by winrid on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:31PM (#32477673)
Also! Way to completely flip the responsibility to on me. Very un-juvenile of you! I wasn't addressing "what tool should I buy", I was addressing "plastic gears are there to protect my drill/impact".

The shopping aspect was uninteresting to me to begin with and was not what I was joining the discussion for. :)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Scoundreller on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:03PM (#32464372)
Most garage door openers too.

Unfortunately, it's an open system, so the grease usually dries out after 5-10 years. Undo the 6 screws and put some marine grease on them every couple years everybody.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by justinlloyd on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:59AM (#32467361)
Garage door maintenance, every two years, regular as clockwork. In Southern California, with all the dust and the dry desert heat, you have to clean them down and regrease regularly. If you don't, they get real noisy, and then they fail. I've looked at closed system units, but they aren't worth the cost vs the 20 or so minutes of biennial maintenance. I'd rather have $3 of plastic gears strip out that I can reorder through a dozen different supplies than actual damage to my door or the infrastructure that holds the door. Though that has become less of an issue on newer units with excessive force sensors.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rsa4046 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:45PM (#32465660)
I bought and installed a Sommer Evo+ (German made), after Chamberlain, Craftsman products crapped out prematurely. So far, so good (7 years), extremely quiet; slow, but well put together.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by tlavoie on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @01:54PM (#32486340)
It depends a lot on where the breakable part is, and whether it can be replaced reasonably. I just did some repairs on our Cuisinart food processor, that highlighted poor design.

The motor is in the base of course, driving a shaft that comes up through the center of the housing. So far, so good. The problem is that this beefy-looking motor is screwed onto three plastic pillars that are just part of the otherwise thin outer housing. Each pillar is essentially an "asterisk" cross-section, probably to minimize material, and it had just snapped off the outer shell. You can buy things like the blades or the plastic bowl, but not random parts from the inside (or, outside).

I managed to get it together with a screw through the housing and a large glob of epoxy putty, but the experience really emphasized that it was pretty much designed to fail.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Arrath on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:17PM (#32471592)
Its common practice for larger devices as well. E.G. construction equipment will often have an inexpensive rubber coupling between the very expensive 250 HP diesel motor and the hydraulic pump or air compressor that provide useful working fluids to the tools.

Sometimes they can be a right bastard to replace, but its still cheaper and much quicker than replacing a blown hydraulic pump and flushing the system to ensure no filings escaped the filters.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hasmanean on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @07:16PM (#32490289)
Yes, this is the moral of the story behind the “one boss shay.”

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45280/45280-h/45280-h.htm

A deacon designed a horse cart where all the parts were designed to last a hundred years. Most cart had a weak spot which meant the cart wore out but never broke down. This thing was built with no weak spots.

So on the hundredth and one year to the day, all of a sudden everything failed at the same time and it collapsed into a cloud of dust.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sydd on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:00PM (#32476005)
There are 2 issues:

1. They don't sell this coupler as a part. I could get one from abroad for like $7+postage and wait weeks for it.

2. This plastic crap is glued to the motor shaft. I might deform the shaft while trying to fix it.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dzhiurgis on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:01PM (#32473091)
> it's a 5 € plastic part that's broken

FWIW you can buy used one for that price

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jibe on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:31PM (#32463683)
planned obsolence out there

I don't think it is planned obsolescence, it is just a race to the bottom on price. At $30, an immersion blender can't have metal gears. Most people value cheapness more than quality, so we get cheap junky products. Nylon gears are a travesty, but most people prefer replacing crap to paying 7x for the Vitamix.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by K0balt on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:30PM (#32464164)
Plenty of planned obsolescence. I won’t go into my rant but my brother is an engineer who is paid very handsomely to make sure that products outlast their warranty period but then fail predictably. He engineers special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years, gears that fail after 10th no later than 12 years, bearing assemblies that will leak but not fail between 4000 to 5500 hours, etc.

Often the components he designs cost more to manufacture that components that would last much, much longer. . To build a pump that will 99 percent make it to 3000 hours, that means half will make it to 9000 hours or more. Unless you really, really make sure that 90 percent will also fail by 4000 hours. It’s not easy to do.

Some products actually incorporate extra parts such as batteries that serve no other purpose than to cause the unit to degrade after a certain time (honeywell thermostats I’m looking at you … their round thermostat includes a lithium cell. When the lithium cell degrades, the at328p processor switches to a limping mode that regulates +/- 10 degrees, but never less than a little over freezing. The (soldered) battery just goes through a resistor to a GPIO pin. It’s just a chemical timer. It serves no other purpose than to make the unit need to be replaced.)

I could go on and on and on, but stuff is definitely designed to fail in predictable ways in a predermined timeframe. Considerable expense is invested in this behavior.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by userbinator on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:40PM (#32464962)
special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years

...so the company making parts with them can then extoll the virtues of "biodegradable" in their marketing...?

Also, for those who doubt the claim about the Honeywell thermostat having a battery, I did some further research, and it does appear to be true:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/128526/honeywell-th...

https://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5R0MJGEFNXH

But then this video shows that it is relatively easy to replace, it's not soldered in place, although the comments there do mention that the presence of the battery isn't documented anywhere in the original instructions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKowLXfERo

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by somewhat_drunk on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:50AM (#32466011)
The first two links you've provided about the battery don't prove or even suggest that the battery is essentially intended as a chemical timer to disable the thermostat when it runs out, which is the gist of the claim.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by K0balt on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:38AM (#32539189)
We had a over a hundred deployed so I did pretty exhaustive analysis. There is no rtc or anything that needs power. The at328p chip used has nonvolatile storage, the battery does not supply power when the power to the thermostat is removed, and the battery keeps a gpio pin on the mcu high. It’s pretty plain.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by arcanemachined on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:59PM (#32464691)
Your brother should write a book.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by april_22 on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:20AM (#32470013)
It would be amazing to have a ranking of companies whose products actually work and don't break down after some years. Might be controversial, but I'd place Apple pretty high up there since (excluding the battery thing they did), they built really sturdy hardware that lasts and offer long software support.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by _nalply on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:02AM (#32466349)
when he retires?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by temeritatis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:04PM (#32464723)
I knew planned obsolescence was a thing, but this is just insane to me! At best, it's really disingenuous (which is bad enough). No wonder we have so many conspiracy theorists. They've somehow socially engineered this situation to be acceptable (and relatively unknown).
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by K0balt on Sunday August 21, 2022 @08:00AM (#32539312)
The subscription model is older than most people realize
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by themitigating on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:43AM (#32466890)
But how can we be sure you are telling the truth about who your brother is?

Many people add ficituous evidence of their views because they are so sure they are right.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by K0balt on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:50AM (#32539264)
Have a look at the little plastic bars that connect heater vent louvers on 1994 Toyota 4 runners. You will find that the plastic of the louvers is fine, but the bar that makes them move as a unit if extremely fragile (now). It also is an individually part numbered part with date codes lol. This is how they tell you your car needs replaced without making it unreliable, so you go buy a new Toyota.

Also, the gears inside of refrigerator defrost timers in the 160 refrigerators we bought for an apartment complex. Shockingly, still mechanical. And one of the gears is date coded and has teeth made of a rubbery, disintegrating plastic around a regular nylon wheel. The vast majority of the timers failed in a two years window. At 7-8 years. The cheap replacement timers have no such nonsense and I’ve never seen one fail. Most people just would have replaced the cheap apartment fridge.

This is just some of what I’ve personally seen.

But you are right, I’m just some guy on the internet, I could be just making this up.

And corporations would never make things with life limitations to make more money. Surely. I mean, that would be like a subscription model! Ridiculous!

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:57PM (#32464674)
What kind of battery goes into the Honeywell thermostat you are talking about? Is it one you have to buy from Honeywell, or an off-the-shelf part?

If the latter, how does it help Honeywell that you have to replace it?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by K0balt on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:33AM (#32539171)
It is an off the shelf part. It is (at least in the models I have worked with) possible, but not easy to replace, as the holder is blocked buy other components and the thermostat is not designed to be disassembled. The existence of the battery is undocumented.

Since we had over a hundred of these deployed in an apartment complex, when they started failing I carefully characterized their behavior. It just makes them go wonky when it is removed or dies. The at328p functions fine without it, there is no RTC or anything that needs a battery., and the chip is not powered by the battery when power is removed. In fact, there is no discharge from the battery when power is off. The at328p has nonvolatile eeprom and flash storage.

Interestingly, the wonky behavior it exhibits is the same (but doesn’t go below 40 degrees (f) ) as an old electromechanical one failing lol.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Jach on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:08PM (#32464744)
I'm curious too, but even if something is fairly easy to replace or repair a significant amount of people may still just buy new and not bother. (My own landlord is making this choice over a $100 logic board replacement for the garage door opener.)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eloisius on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:11PM (#32464766)
I think the point is that you (or most people) will replace the entire unit because it's beyond warranty, stops functioning correctly, and a soldered (probably special) battery would be difficult to replace.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:58PM (#32465377)
There's no such thing as a special battery. No manufacturer is going to have some kind of custom battery manufactured just for one part; they always come in standard sizes and voltages. At the very worst, you could hack in a similar-sized battery with the right voltage.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:56AM (#32466636)
My bicycle light begs to differ. It’s a standard 18650 cell with a protection PCB slapped on top, and both poles on the same end of the battery.

This is exotic enough that replacements are very hard to find. I can either get the 2 cells needed from the manufacturer at about 70% the cost of a new light, or get a new light. It’s technically repairable/user serviceable, it’s just not practical to do. Apple is playing a similar trick with their 80lbs iPhone repair kit to change the battery yourself: technically user repairable, practically not.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:20AM (#32467097)
>My bicycle light begs to differ. It’s a standard 18650 cell with a protection PCB slapped on top, and both poles on the same end of the battery.

Huh? You seem to be contradicting yourself: you say it's a standard 18650 cell. That's not something custom, that's something you can buy from an electronics supplier quite easily. And no, having both poles on the same end isn't something custom either, that's just a variant you can buy. You should be able to find this exact part on digikey.com.

>This is exotic enough that replacements are very hard to find.

If you can buy something on digikey.com, it's not "exotic". They even ship small orders by USPS for cheap. It might be "exotic" to a typical consumer, but those people don't know how to use a soldering iron.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eloisius on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:47AM (#32467291)
This entire thread is people talking about planned obsolescence for _consumer_ devices and you keep making the same rebuttals. Typical home owners who buy a thermostat at Home Depot or cyclists who buy a tail light at a bike shop are unlikely to even know what digikey is, let alone order a replacement (especially if you have to buy in bulk) and do their own soldering to replace it if it's soldered in.

We all know the typical HN reader thinks a fun weekend would be spending 6 hours researching part numbers and getting out the soldering iron, but we are atypical. Most people will assume their product is at the end of its life because the warranty has lapsed and it doesn't work anymore. Companies are apparently betting on that and it's an environmental travesty.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:18PM (#32477550)
>Typical home owners who buy a thermostat at Home Depot or cyclists who buy a tail light at a bike shop are unlikely to even know what digikey is, let alone order a replacement

Yes, I know. I said this exact thing above.

The parent said these devices used "custom batteries", implying that Honeywell et al were custom-designing and manufacturing their own special nonstandard batteries just for these applications. This is incorrect, and needed to be corrected.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:12AM (#32467447)
It’s standard in the sense that a 18650 with a protection PCB on top and both poles on the same end isn’t exclusive to this manufacturer and others use it. There is nothing proprietary about it. But it’s not run of the mill 18650 either.

But it’s rare enough that it’s hard to find. So much so that it actually doesn’t make economical sense to find this (rare, at a premium) variant because it would cost about as much or more than a new light (which includes new batteries, ironically)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eloisius on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:24AM (#32466468)
There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart, and for the general public that may render the device kaput. I didn't say it's an unhackable design.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:21PM (#32477576)
>There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart

You can't pick up a standard 18650 battery at Walmart either, but that doesn't make it some kind of special battery. It's bog-standard. Availability at Walmart has nothing to do with something is standard or even common. Brake pads for some random mass-market 2015 model year car (GM, Toyota, etc.) are nothing special or difficult to find either, but you're not going to find them at Walmart.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by fomine3 on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:38AM (#32466537)
But perhaps BMS expect specific battery product. I don't want to take risk by replacing to random Li-ion that not matching original BMS.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:40AM (#32466237)
The question is how much hacking would be required.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:45AM (#32466258)
Probably not much, but that's still far more than the average consumer is willing or able to do.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:18PM (#32465162)
Yes, a soldered or special battery would be (weak) evidence of the tactic of planned obsolescence. A standard battery that you can just pop in and out, would not be.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by TheRealDunkirk on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @07:36AM (#32481522)
When I was in engineering school 35 years ago, the "joke" was that our job was to design a car that ran perfectly until its warranty expired, and then, poof!, turned into a pile of dust. I didn't realize this actually became a science. Good grief. Of COURSE it did. Someone should make an expose about this stuff, and sell it to a news program.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by II2II on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:12PM (#32464412)
Metal is not a panacea, and it can often lead to misleading marketing. Different metals wear at different rates and poor design can still lead to premature failure. Heck the viscosity of the lubricant was the cited reason for the failure of the compressor. Lubricated devices also need maintenance, otherwise the surfaces the lubricant is intended to protect will wear. The properties of lubricants can also change and cause moving parts to cease.

Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:41PM (#32465629)
Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time.

No, that's relatively easy as well. What's incredibly difficult is doing so while keeping the BOM cost under control in a competitive market.

Recall the classic saying, "Any idiot can design a bridge that will stand up. It takes an engineer to design a bridge that will barely stand up."

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by somewhat_drunk on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:53AM (#32466027)
Indeed. His engineer brother is essentially designing a component that can barely function, just like a bridge, because resources are finite.

I have never seen any example of 'planned obsolescence' which was anything more than giving the consumer what the consumer wants. Modern economy is essentially the peak optimization of cost vs utility, i.e. value maximization.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rowanG077 on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:00AM (#32466965)
According to the poster the components their brother designs are often more expensive then the standard ones. Precisely because it takes a higher tolerance to fail between a tight time window. So it is in fact the opposite of resources are finite. They are spending more to squeeze the consumer.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jtbayly on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:08PM (#32471460)
But!… we don’t have any evidence yet. Just a claim. I’d love to see some evidence.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rowanG077 on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:17PM (#32471591)
If someone is telling you something, which you have no way to verify, it's obscene to cherry pick a piece of information to believe, use that to make your point and then call out the other piece as an unverified claim because it would completely destroy the point.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by CamperBob2 on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:50PM (#32472939)
The notion of a battery tied to a GPIO pin in an HVAC thermostat amounts to an extraordinary claim. Unless we're talking about a smoke detector or other safety-critical item that actually has an expiration date (in which case I'd think they would use a real chemical timer), there are no obvious explanations for the battery other than planned obsolescence.

So, yeah, I'd like to see a model number as well.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ephbit on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @11:40AM (#32484282)
I owned an AEG washing machine.

The plastic tub that contained the rotating drum was hung up on springs just like in any other washing machine.

The holes in the tub where the ends of the springs went through were just that, holes without any reinforcements.

The inevitable happened (because the strain in the plastic where it met the unforgiving steel of the springs was too much) and over the years, the holes wore through the plastic, resembling an oblong shape more and more.

I simply pressed a metal bushing into the enlarged hole on one side and on the other, I used two small strips of steel (with holes in it for the spring) clamped to the tub with bolt and nut.

And voilà the machine easily did another two years (electronics now messed up).

This case is either a pitiable engineering failure or 100 % planned obsolescence.

Merely equipping the holes in the plastic tub with metal bushings would have easily made this part outlive every other failure.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by scottLobster on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#32469769)
For a less cynical take, efficient use of resources is important as well. Theoretically every bridge should just be a solid wall going straight down to the nearest bedrock beneath it, but you can build a lot more bridges with the same resources if you use various other techniques. :)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by BlargMcLarg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:06PM (#32463978)
>Most people value cheapness more than quality, so we get cheap junky products.

Well, it would help tremendously if costs per month/year/lifetime were more obvious. A lot of people just don't know how long certain appliances are supposed to last at what price points comparatively. 7x is only a hefty price tag upfront when you know it will pay for itself over time, but even that is no longer certain.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jtbayly on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:09PM (#32471488)
How many years would you divide by as a “lifetime”? That’s your new failure year that lots of people would prefer for it to last longer than.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by someguydave on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @10:39AM (#32483333)
Right, judging long-term product value is like trying to win against the casino on their own slot machines.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by CoastalCoder on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:40PM (#32463769)
This isn't true of me.

I value quality and price. Unfortunately, while price is clearly stated, poor quality is often hidden.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by 2muchcoffeeman on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:14PM (#32464791)
Well, you want more people to buy your product so you get growth year over year. You can't do that with a basic widget that will last 10++ years. Otherwise your growth would plateau to the natural population growth rate and there would be a thriving 2nd hand market because your stuff rarely breaks. Adding complex electronic features is an obvious choice now. You can just stop providing updates or the electronics will fail.

Cheaper things aren't necessarily bad either. You don't want things like fridges and blenders to be items only the rich can afford and less robust things are probably fine if it was clear under what conditions you can use the item to make it last and if the item was easily repairable.

Lastly, I don't think you can blame the manufacturers alone either. I know people who don't like used things even if they are still good and will always buy new.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:25AM (#32466470)
I suspect lots of people value cheapness when there is no way to tell whether the premium actually reflects quality.

This is for example why flying commercial is such a miserable experience: people will look for the cheapest ticket that gets them to their destination because the whole thing is like being treated like cattle. Why then should you pay a single cent more for the same shitty experience? Airlines that used to offer a slightly better experience have figured this out and also treat you like cattle now so they can also offer the route for a low or lower price.

This is not unique to airlines, and this is my default mode of purchasing things because I’ve been burnt too many times. Unless I know for sure that X brand is much more durable and repairable than another, I’ll always go for the cheapest I can find that meets my needs.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lambdasquirrel on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:18PM (#32464091)
Disclaimer: I have a KitchenAid blender. I only paid 5x for it, so I didn't have to pay the Vitamix guerrilla marketing part of the deal. But yes, expect something several multiples over the nickel-and-dimed stuff.

The high-end blender lines of both brands are made domestically, and rate at the top in Consumer Reports. I can vouch that both are pretty quiet in operation, for what are essentially food-violence machines.

Just because it's a German brand like Bosch doesn't mean it's made in Germany, from quality parts, so, buyer beware.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:52PM (#32463860)
thats fine, but then why do I get the same problems when i pay $200?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ConceptJunkie on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:49AM (#32469000)
We have a blender that we got from my wife's parents. It probably dates back to the 1950s, and I love it. It's only got two speeds and heavy as anything, but it's probably the most solidly-built appliance I own. I also have one I bought in the early 90s that's fine as well. I don't expect to ever need to buy another one.

But you're absolutely right. Buying cheap stuff is bad in so many ways. Since they wear out faster, you end up replacing them much more often, which is environmentally bad, and in the long run, costs more. The problem is that being expensive does not necessarily correlate with lasting long.

When our TV died a few years ago, my kids pooled together and bought me a 50" Samsung 4k TV. It's a great device in so many ways, but after 3 years, the backlights started failing. Right now half the screen is dark, and it would cost almost as much as a new TV to get them replaced, with a part that probably costs all of $5 to manufacture. So it's been hanging on the wall for the last year, because I've been too cheap to replace the whole TV, and too scared too attempt the repair on my own, since it involves stripping the thing down to the frame (and removing that enormous panel). I still might try some day. It's worth a $50 gamble to get the TV back. Either that or I'll just replace the darn thing. This TV (like all modern TVs) is a miracle of engineering, and the thing that stopped it from being usable is probably the simplest and one of the cheapest components.

My first TV was a hand-me-down from my parents that eventually died in late '88 or '89. It was an RCA from 1968. Then I bought a 26" RCA TV in 1989 and used it until we replaced it with an HD TV in 2012. It still worked fine when we got rid of it, and I was sad to see it go, even though we had no use for it.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by april_22 on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:17AM (#32469970)
Another issue I've experienced with these smart TVs is, that the software becomes extremly slow and almost unusable after a couple of years.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lenocinor on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:00PM (#32471374)
Seconded. Don’t forget updating with ads and spyware. I’ve resolved never to update the software on my TVs going forward unless there’s a major bug.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dzhiurgis on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:58PM (#32473036)
> environmentally bad

How about replacing appliances with new ones? Washers can now do both - wash and dry AND it has heat pump. Induction cooktop are way more efficient. Instant hot water taps translates to smaller hot water cylinders. Japanese style fridges spoil less food.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by shard on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @09:14PM (#32491101)
By Japanese style fridge, do you mean a fridge with the freezer on the bottom? How does a Japanese style fridge reduce spoilage?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dzhiurgis on Wednesday August 17, 2022 @06:29AM (#32494436)
It's probably a stretch on big picture but some have vacuum compartment for fresh meat and fish and humid compartment for vegetables.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by bombcar on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:16PM (#32463544)
For food-service you can often find commercial-grade stuff which still has some durability to it - but it will NOT have things like "be quiet" or "small portion size" or "cheap" usually.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by tenpies on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:31PM (#32464901)
> Yes, there is plenty of planned obsolence out there, and one of the greenest things you can do is buy premium stuff that will last you a lifetime

The annoying part is that you can end up missing on new features.

I look at the Zojirushi rice cooker that I bought in college - a hefty purchase at the time - the Jaguar of rice cookers at a time when I should have been buying the $10 Black and Decker rice cooker. It's still with me, over a decade later, through countless moves, a handful of girlfriend (who all had opinions on it, interestingly), and at least 1,000 bowls of rice cooked.

The battery that keeps the time died (I could replace it, but I'd have to take it apart and it's technically non-replaceable), but other than that it's working perfectly. The rice is as good as it ever has been.

My oh most first world of problems? A while ago Zojirushi released rice cookers also function as pressure cookers in the same device. I'd love to upgrade so I can quickly make stews in it, but I cannot possibly retire my old one just because it's old.

Most likely I'm going to end up having two Zojirushis because well, rice goes pretty well with stew and you can't exactly make both simultaneously. And then in 10 years when they make one that's both a rice cooker, a pressure cooker, and an air fryer; I'll be having this monologue again.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:01AM (#32466664)
> I cannot possibly retire my old one just because it's old.

Why not sell it second hand? Someone (even a student like you once were?) will happily extract a decade or more of value from it and you’ll get some of your money back towards the upgrade.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by steve_adams_86 on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:50AM (#32466010)
I have a similar story of buying a zojirushi rice cooker when spending 1/10th as much would have seemed wiser. That was 13 years ago! It turned out to be a great decision because it’s also still going strong. The clock is still good, but now you’ve got me worried that it’s on its way out.

I can also relate to your envy of the new models we don’t need.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by daotoad on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:09PM (#32478010)
I got my first Zojirushi rice cooker over 20 years ago. The only reason I'm on my second is that my ex-wife claimed it in the divorce, she's still using it. I'm still using my "new" 12 year old model.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by lenocinor on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:04PM (#32471423)
Same with my Zojirushi rice cooker, as well as my Zojirushi water heater and thermos. Their stuff has lasted a long time and performed great for me.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Gordonjcp on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:52PM (#32463855)
> I called the Bosch service hotline, they told me that the whole body is one "part" that I can buy for ~80% of the original price.

It's eight months old. They *have* to replace it under warranty.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by iforgotpassword on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#32466776)
I had the exact same experience with hand blenders! I went for WMF the first time, a brand known at least in Germany for its quality. The connection was plastic too, but even worse: it didn't have a simple snap in mechanism, but you had to rotate it by about 20 degrees after connecting until you heard a click. When my mom visited she didn't know and didn't do it properly, and you could hear an awful sound. Within seconds the plastic connector got completely destroyed. Was also just a couple months old, so I went to the store (yes they have stores in almost every city that's maybe 200k people or more), and they were like "sorry bud, but you can get 10€ off for a new one". WMF is now on my blacklist of "crap companies that use their reputation to sell cheap China crap for a premium". I was so mad I glued together the connector with JB weld and used it for almost another year. Cleaning sucked that way though. Now I always get the cheapest one on Amazon so I don't have any expectations. When I wanted a standing one a couple years later I did that right from the start.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Cthulhu_ on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:01AM (#32469133)
This is why I'm glad for EU laws; nowadays their objectives is to reduce e-waste. Electronic products now have a mandatory warranty of three years; I believe smartphones and such electronic devices need to have a lifetime of six.

But one-year warranties have been a thing everywhere for a long time I believe, so I hope you got your money back for both devices.

A good channel on youtube for these kinds of things is AvE, especially his older videos are good breakdowns and explanations of mostly electric tools where the creator points out things like molding, plastics, but also gears and probable failure modes - often a switch or as you mentioned, plastic gears or bad / missing bearings. The best device he had a teardown of was actually the Juicero, a massively over-engineered piece of hardware that was basically an inefficient press - as in, you get more juice just by hand-squeezing/rolling the overpriced Juicero bags.

Is that company still in business? If it does I'm sure some SF companies with too much money on their hands are still paying their subscriptions / deliveries.

Edit: it is not, they went out of business in 2017.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sbf501 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:08PM (#32465109)
I try to buy kitchen stuff from kitchen supply stores, not the mall. If you've ever been to a quality restaurant where the kitchen is visible from the seating area, you can see that they don't use fancy-ass pots and pans, because they are very hard on cookware (heavy vollrath aluminum with no coating, no stainless steel!). Same goes with their appliances: if a kitchen is using an appliance, you know it has been abused.

I would have tried these first:

Light duty:

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/waring-wsb33x-quik-stik-7-i...

Turn it up:

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/waring-wsb40-quik-stik-plus...

Bring the noise!...

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/robot-coupe-mp600-turbo-23-...

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by derefr on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:24PM (#32465202)
On the other hand, some components get so abused in a commercial/industrial setting, that they're considered consumable parts of the machine, making "long life if lightly used" into a complete non-consideration in the design process.

You probably don't want a commercial-kitchen dishwasher; IIRC you're expected to have someone in to replace the hoses in them every year or two, because they make those hoses out of plastics that are tolerant to higher temperatures, but at the expense of plasticizer degradation (becoming stiff + brittle) after just sitting around at ambient temperature-and-pressure for a few years. A residential dishwasher, while not able to clean as well, will be able to start up just fine after years of disuse; which is more what you want in a house or apartment that might go years sitting empty.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jcampbell1 on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:36AM (#32467601)
Commercial dishwashers work completely differently from home ones. They are designed to use the same water across multiple loads. Home ones clean way better but take 1.5 hours per load rather than the 3 minutes commercial ones use. Have you ever actually used a commercial dishwasher? They are about as similar to a residential dishwasher as a Porsche is to a dump truck.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sbf501 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:25PM (#32465209)
I didn't know that. At least it is understood up front!

I really would like one of the bar water jets they use for cleaning the mixers/shakers, tho!

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by swimfar on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:31PM (#32464521)
Was the blender part one of these:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4415363

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3969534

https://www.printables.com/model/172705-bosch-blender-coupli...

You could try printing it yourself, or using a 3D printing service to get a replacement. It would be interesting to see how different material options hold up.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sydd on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:11AM (#32469909)
Yep, its one of these, but 3D printing will not work here. The original part is some kind of injection molded, ABS or PC with 5-30% glass fiber content. In other words a very strong type of plastic, which was not strong enough for the job.

FDM printed parts are inherently much weaker than injection molded ones, simply it breaks very easily between the layers. Even if you print it in the right direction it will be much weaker. Maybe parts printed with continuous glass fibers could hold up with the original part, which was crap in itself.

Until there are affordable printers that can print metal this will be crap by design. Or I could buy a CNC that can work with steel :)

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ddingus on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:24AM (#32466163)
We had a similar experience tooling up our kitchen. I ended up buying used, high quality appliances from an earlier era.

Best move ever! Our Kitchen Aid mixer, for example, is metal construction, has servicable motor parts, and just works. Well, it did get glitchy a month or two back. I took it apart, saw flour everywhere. Hit it with compressed air, greased up some things, cleaned the motor brushes and mating parts, put it back together and it's like new!

Toaster, blender, can opener, all the same deal. When I get them, I do a quick test and refurb on them. Doesn't take long, and often I can get parts, depending on what it is. Once I know the device, I feel like I can depend on it. And going used = ultra cheap. It's kind of crazy how cheap.

And these things are simple. They have the features they need to and that's kind of it. Attachments are not hard to find either.

Worst case it's a bad call. Oh well, try again.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by rightbyte on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:58AM (#32466325)
I bought a Ankarsrum assistent for the sole reason it was designed in the 40s and comes with 10y warranty for the motor.

I am so tired of "cheap" stuff breaking.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by dghughes on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:22PM (#32464844)
It's the indifference and apathy that is annoying. Just yesterday I was told "did you check online" from a local business that was complaining that nobody buys local.

Or my new hated phrase "ready to ship" on store websites, in other words they don't have it. Why would I get it shipped to them and then have to call when I can just order it direct.

Between crap quality, apathetic store staff, and no inventory it's become a pain to buy anything locally or online even just a regular toaster.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by 14 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:20PM (#32463586)
Same issue with a Dremel. Stopped spinning so opened it up and found it had a plastic coupler. Junk. Luckily I was able to find a 3d file and print a new coupler with my printer.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:25PM (#32463628)
I had a higher end Dremel that would intermittently die because the brushes got stuck in their channels once the motor warmed up. I was so happy when the speed controller died and I replaced that garbage with a $20 Menard's unit that's been bulletproof.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by daniel-cussen on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:34PM (#32464194)
Fantastic you could 3D print the part. That's beautiful. That's how you fuck their business, and good that you did, they should sell quality.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by 14 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:00PM (#32464702)
I love my 3d printer. Last Christmas opened up a brand new hot wheels track and told the kids not to touch it so we didn’t lose any parts. They waited patiently as I built it. Get toward the end and realize a clip for the tracks was missing no fault of the kids. Damn. Quick search and find a 3d file for new clip. Printed within 30 minutes and kids had their track. So much easier then calling the company and dealing with waiting for a part and not having the receipt anymore. Was really nice
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by daniel-cussen on Thursday August 18, 2022 @06:48PM (#32515751)
I knew of a kid in elementary, this was in Chile, ordering missing Lego parts from the catalog. Was unthinkable. Pre-internet, I think mail or international phone call, something crazy. Unthinkable.

Plus the company introduces a wait. No blame on hot wheels, they (I think, not sure but want to believe) try to live up to being a cool toy. Good gift. They want to be a good gift, like get a kid saying "Ohhhhh, damnit I mean gosh-darn-it, sorry, hot wheels cars, real cars, wow oh wow oh wow oh wow!" Jumping up and down. But it's still a wait. So the problem is, reminiscing upon childhood, children make promises to themselves about holding out until birthdays and Christmas. So if they break that promise with themselves because a "company" (what's that?) "makes an error" (like on a test?) then it's like...nah, "I'm not a happy kid."

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by syntheweave on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:10PM (#32464763)
Sometimes it's easiest to do without some appliances. Blenders are convenient, but also one more thing to maintain, if only just to clean it. Often there's an alternative to get something premade. Like, I could make milkshakes...or I could take fresh milk and stir it into ice cream.

If it's your hobby to cook more elaborately, of course, you still end up in the position of having no quality options. But if you're dealing with something sufficiently disposable, maybe it makes sense to lean into it. Everyone who writes or draws regularly has extra stationary supplies, for example - but not everyone goes down the route of getting a converter fountain pen and filling it with bottled ink. The extra packaging of a disposable pen body is waste, but the all-in-one nature of it makes it portable, fungible.

I actually made an attempt to calculate what it would take to replace everything I seriously use in my home recently - all the cookware, electronics, toiletries, furniture, office supplies, clothes, cleaning tools. I estimate that it would be under $15k. Whatever I have on top of that is essentially just purchases that turned into waste - extra clothes, extra furniture, etc.

So most of my outgoing costs are strictly recurring service charges: rent, energy, food, transport, insurance, etc. We often get appliances in hopes of beating those service charges, but then it turns into junk.

On balance, most things can be done more easily than they used to be with an appropriate mix of product and service. But we also all got on the hedonic treadmill and the promise of living better by buying better. Maybe that's not how to live better.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by nfhshy68 on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:02AM (#32468143)
Your country needs consumer laws. If something craps out like that within a reasonable timeframe for the thing to last you get a refund or replacement. Generally people expect a blender to last for more than a year or two, you'd get your money back after 8 months here easy.

Same goes for whiteware that's expected to last more than 5 generally.

Shops still somehow sell extended warranties though. Crooks.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jacknews on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:03PM (#32465085)
The problem isn't just with poor quality, but with integration or lack of modularity/standardization.

I've had exactly the same problem with blenders, several times, where for example a small plastic tab that secures the blender bowl to the motor base snaps off, making the whole thing useless.

It would not be such an issue if these couplings were standardized in some way, so that you could buy a replacement, other than the manufacturer's hugely price inflated spare part.

Contrast the situation with when your PC graphics card or memory stick fails, you can just buy a commodity replacement, rather than junking the whole PC, screen, keyboard.

The more philosophical problem of course is that market capitalism's one incentive is to make profit. Making good products is only incidental to that imperative, and clearly not always a requirement.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by OJFord on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:10PM (#32464407)
If I understand the issue correctly, I have a Bamix model with 'metal coupling'. Swiss company, bought on Amazon UK, presumably available on Amazon US, no idea about 'malls'.

As an aside, AIUI there are two Boschs, and 'consumer Bosch' is merely a marketing/branding department.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by avar on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:47PM (#32464275)
Undervalued option for a hand blender: A power drill with a blender attachment, it'll easily beat any store bought immersion blender when it comes to reliability.

Of course you might end up wishing for crappy plastic gears over something with enough torque to shear a finger off...

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by liminalsunset on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:16PM (#32464433)
In this case, the power drill actually has a torque limit feature (normally used for putting in screws, without stripping them). If the blender attachment gets stuck, the drill "cams out" and does not get damaged at all, unlike plastic gears.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by RachelF on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:02PM (#32465401)
There's a law of economics [1] that describes how bad products drive out good ones if they look the same:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by wizofaus on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#32469153)
Gresham's law is about (physical) currencies though - while it could arguably be somewhat extended to consumer products, the latter can typically be distinguished readily on more than just their superficial appearance. The fact that it's hard to accurately do so at point of purchase for most consumers is definitely part of the problem though.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by oigursh on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @07:18AM (#32481422)
Believe the Market for Lemons may apply:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by sgtnoodle on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:51PM (#32464642)
I bought a refurbished Blendtec blender a while back. The jar failed after a year and a half; some plastic involved in the blade shaft bearing melted from the blender's own rotation. It's not designed to be replaceable and so I consider it a design flaw. It turns out someone already created a better jar with a significantly more robust, replaceable bearing assembly. It's called the Alterna-jar or something.

In total I'm in for about $450 and have a powerful blender that should last for at least the next decade.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by RileyJames on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:07PM (#32464741)
>> “it broke after 8 months”

Why are you being asked to pay for a replacement? Isn’t this covered under warranty?

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by aidenn0 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:45PM (#32464991)
Most warranties in the US are only "free from manufacturing defects" so if the gear was manufactured to spec, but just wore out, then it's not covered

Also a 90 day warranty is not uncommon

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by RileyJames on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:57AM (#32466949)
There’s a problem.

In Australia a 12 month warranty is required. And for “expensive goods” it’s 24 months.

I’m not sure where the line is, but an iPhone certainly falls into the expensive category.

When those battery woes occurred, Apple was required to replace batteries, and they did.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by aidenn0 on Monday August 15, 2022 @06:21PM (#32476243)
It varies from state-to-state, but "Caveat Emptor" is the general rule of the land in the US.

[edit]

It's not quite "Caveat Emptor" but rather "perfect-tender" which still requires the buyer to inspect the items with "reasonable promptness"

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hnbad on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:42AM (#32466886)
I take it you don't live in the EU? Because regardless of what warranties the seller provides, all consumer electronics generally have a 2 year legal minimum guarantee and the first two blenders you describe definitely would have been covered by it. Bosch would have had to replace that plastic part, not "sell" it to you.

I'm not saying this to dunk on Americans. I'm just saying this is a problem that can be addressed with proper consumer protection regulations. Mind you, products will still fail and need to be replaced but this incentivizes manufacturers to aim for 2 years of use rather than 2 months.

Of course the real problem is that the broken device becomes your problem once the legal guarantee runs out and electronics waste is just handled in bulk, disregarding the environmental impact and resource waste. All the long-term damage becomes an externality so companies will optimize for limiting the lifetime of components to the least they can get away with because longer lasting products mean fewer sales.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by Loic on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:12AM (#32467047)
We have a Vitamix at home, in use every morning. After nearly 7 years, the blade block started to leak. They sent a new one. It was very interesting to see how they improved the design of the block in between.

As I said somewhere else, first buy cheap, if it fails you know better what you really need and can buy the right expensive stuff. If it does not fail, enjoy your luck.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by bogota on Sunday August 14, 2022 @11:10PM (#32465442)
Its a nightmare anything that will last is now “premium” and top of the line. You spend easily 4x what even a good one costs and then you get something that lasts as long as appliances did 30 years ago. Washers and dryer’s drive me mad not to mention most kitchen appliances.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by soco on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:01AM (#32466967)
In the world of 3D printing where the tagline is "the limit is only your imagination" you'd expect to get those plastic replacement parts for a dime but nooo the devices are not even designed to be replaceable...
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by seb1204 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:17PM (#32463551)
Commercial range of devices often are better as they need to endure much more uses.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:56PM (#32463895)
Commercial grade devices are often not suitable for home use - for example commercial dishwashers are a totally different beast, their cycles are like 10 minutes and they are meant for disinfection nore than cleaning. They need frequent maintenance, dont come with a pump, dont tolerate long periods of non use, etc.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by quickthrower2 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:51PM (#32464309)
I noticed this when looking into coffee grinders.

A commercial one is a problem at home unless you make 20 coffees a day because it is going to retain a lot of grinds (not a problem if you have a lot of throughput, it won't go stale). It will also be noisy and big.

A prosumer one should be quite and good for not retaining grinds, but would be bad for commercial as it wont be fast enough (ten times slower), and you you don't want to wait grind for every shot. Also a prosumer one would look nicer probably.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ghostpepper on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:24PM (#32464855)
FWIW I've had a Baratza grinder going strong with daily use for 5+ years
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by xbmcuser on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:48AM (#32467666)
For kitchen appliances you should try to get restaurant grade if you can afford it. Won't solve all the problems but Restaurant appliances are made for heavy use so are more durable compared to home kitchen appliances. Last 1-2 years would have been a good year to get 2nd hand restaurant appliances with the many restaurants going out of business.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by adamsmith143 on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:14AM (#32469936)
>Yes, there is plenty of planned obsolence out there, and one of the greenest things you can do is buy premium stuff that will last you a lifetime (if you can afford it :/ )

Economically this is almost always the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by LorenPechtel on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:09PM (#32473211)
If you can identify the good boots. That's the problem--quality is hard to identify these days.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by adamsmith143 on Monday August 15, 2022 @05:13PM (#32475456)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by twobitshifter on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:23PM (#32464853)
On Blenders, I got mine from the free/donation pile at the dump. It’s glass, all metal and proudly declares itself “solid state”. It has 14 speeds with a high and low and smells vaguely of ozone when you turn it on. It’s bulletproof.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by userbinator on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:43PM (#32464978)
About the ozone, you might want to replace the brushes and/or polish the commutator. Blenders of that design use brushed motors, and the brushes are a wear part (although they can last a long time).
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ornornor on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:14AM (#32466749)
And they’re dirt cheap and usually easily accessible.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by jtbayly on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:56AM (#32471311)
Same. Exact. Experience. Mother-in-law has a very old one with a metal coupling. Why can’t I buy one like that?!
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by golergka on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:24PM (#32464474)
What blenders do professional kitchens buy?
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by hnxs on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:09AM (#32466091)
my vitamix is turning six. i would love to buy the equivalent of a vitamix for anything whenever possible
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by techsin101 on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:29AM (#32466182)
I bought a blender off amazon, it literally vaporized in first use. All gears turned to powder
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by totetsu on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:24PM (#32465204)
had exactly the same point fail on a hand blender. the plastic teeth of the gear connecting the motor to the blades. every other part was still perfectly fine, but it's just garbage now.
[dead]
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by icecap12 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:55PM (#32464323)
GE sold their appliance division in 2016[1].

[1]https://www.ge.com/news/reports/done-deal-ge-sells-its-appli...

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by daniel-cussen on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:42PM (#32464584)
That was long after they sold the Cussen household their toasters.

They're responsible for what they sold when they sold it. The didn't sell responsibility for stealing my food.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by eru on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:03PM (#32464716)
You know that foreign countries don't have to take the loans you offer at the interest rates you offer?

In principle especially a wanna-be socialist country like the Soviet Union wouldn't need to participate in capitalist rituals like this.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by daniel-cussen on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:02AM (#32469806)
Capital is global. Seeks the highest returns wherever they are.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ars on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:14PM (#32464060)
This doesn't work in all categories, but when the product breaks before a reasonable lifetime you buy a new one, and return the old one.

The store ships it back to the manufacturer, and if they are smart they tear it down and improve whatever caused it to break.

If enough people did this quality would improve.

Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by thfuran on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:27PM (#32464147)
Yeah, except that you're not getting your money back because almost nothing has a warranty that extends nearly to it's reasonable lifetime, so the manufacturer has no particular interest in stopping you from buying another one.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ars on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:14PM (#32464419)
You get your money back when your return the defective item for a refund.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ImPostingOnHN on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:40PM (#32464578)
not when the return is a year after purchase (even shorter for most products these days)
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by ProjectArcturis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:58PM (#32464682)
You don't claim the warranty. You buy the new one, put the old broken one in the new one's box, and return that.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by warkdarrior on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:29PM (#32464887)
I believe this is called fraud, but you do you.
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by boppo1 on Monday August 15, 2022 @07:07AM (#32468179)
Well, on some ethical level so is what manufacturers are doing. Race to the bottom!
Re:Declining quality of consumer-grade products – 2009 fridg... by thfuran on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:43AM (#32468952)
No, a bad deal isn't fraud.