After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go.

USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.

I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements.

Furthermore, one of its main added features — the ability to do gestures that keys can’t do — just isn’t valuable. I haven’t seen a single example of something that was easier to do on the Touch Bar when I have a giant screen and trackpad/mouse already. I don’t need micro-scrubber interfaces or color sliders or Emoji bars, and the volume/brightness sliders are imprecise.

Despite customizing the bar with BetterTouchTool, including “vibrate” feedback, I invariably found I had to remove more and more things from the bar over time. Any functions in the central part of the bar were invariably triggering by accident. It was just too distracting to have things randomly happening when my finger slid onto something that doesn’t feel like an active panel.

Now, therefore, I have a Touch Bar with just a few things: a battery status indicator on the left end (near the thankfully-now-real Esc key), and the brightness/volume/mute on the right (near the wonderful Touch ID). And that’s it. It is literally 70% empty space now. This is ridiculous for something as complex and expense-adding as the Touch Bar. A complete failure of a technology.

You mentioned the volume/brightness sliders as being imprecise. I don’t have a MBP, but I noticed that touchscreen sliders are really difficult to use accurately. Whenever I slide to a value I wanted, lifting my finger inevitably moves the slider over just a little bit selecting an adjacent value (just by virtue of my finger not being lifted straight up). Is this the issue?

I’m sure I have had sliders mishave like that, too. Mostly I just don’t want a slider in the first place; I prefer feeling for the volume up/down keys and tweaking the volume bit by bit, sometimes using modifier keys for extra precision. It is incredibly easy to input “slightly louder” in the old way. It is unnecessarily hard to input “slightly louder” with a wonky touch slider. And, at times I have blown up the speaker by touching it the wrong way.

You can just flick left/right on the volume/brightness icons to adjust a single increment, without having to bring out the slider. This isn't documented anywhere, it's another one of those hidden features you just have to learn.

My touch bar freezes every hour or so when changing volume. I then have to close the laptop, wait for a second, and then open the laptop again. It's awful.

This is the only thing that I don't like about the touch bar. It freezes every so often for me too. However, the fix is a lot easier for me. I just open spotlight search (CMD + Spacebar) and it fixes it.

Wow! Just tried this and it works. Thank you so much.

You can also kill the relevant process: `killall ControlStrip`. I haven't had the precise problem you describe, but this did often suffice to fix strange frozen touch-bar problems.

> I’ve found that the Touch Bar’s fundamental flaw is that it doesn’t handle unintended touches well (which sadly affects multiple Apple technologies, including my Watch and even the trackpad occasionally), and that is directly related to the fact that it has no raised elements.

It's the worst. I constantly hit mute instesd of backspace.

Changing the volume or brightness is a complete pain now. It used to be just tap the key a couple of times and that was it. I would do it as a reflex without interrupting the work I was doing. Now I have to look at where the 'button' is, and then tap and slide. Completely awful.

It's easy to change this behaviour

Open the System Preferences app. Select the Keyboard option (third row, sixth item) On the first tab (also called Keyboard), locate the dropdown for "Touch Bar shows" and choose "Expanded Control Strip".

This doesn't change that I have to look for the on screen buttons and can't just reflexively change the volume while doing something else. Changing the volume or brightness or whatever now becomes a discete task that stops me doing what I was doing before. This * 10 over the course of a day adds up to lots of distractions ovet time.

There are problems with that, too:

- Their “Customize Control Strip” sheet provides an arbitrary subset of volume buttons, which don’t include the ones I want. (Specifically, separate volume buttons and not “button that shows slider first”.)

- Previously I was very accustomed to feeling for the volume buttons, and even using modifier keys for very fine-grained volume changes. With default Touch Bar keys, this is basically impossible. It is sort-of-OK with BetterTouchTool customization but it took me awhile to find a combination that I liked. And, still not as good as the original volume/modifier keys.

> Despite customizing the bar with BetterTouchTool, including “vibrate” feedback, I invariably found I had to remove more and more things from the bar over time. Any functions in the central part of the bar were invariably triggering by accident. It was just too distracting to have things randomly happening when my finger slid onto something that doesn’t feel like an active panel.

Is there any way to disable the fixed `esc`? I could just ignore the touch bar, except for that. It haunts my vim experience and my attempts to use full-screen (which `esc` exists by default), since apparently my left little finger tends to rest there without my realising (maybe because I'm a vimmer?).

BetterTouchTool can remove the “esc” (or any key) entirely but I don’t think there is a normal macOS way to do it.

I HATE the touch bar.

I simply H A T E it.

I hate it so much that I started to carry an TKL keyboard all the time with me just to avoid using this piece of sh*t touch bar and internal keyboard (MBP 2017).

As a developer it is crucial that I can use my keyboard without any looks but as there is no way to tell which function key you press on the touch bar the bar itself is completely useless for me.

Beside the butterfly switches one of the worst things Apple has ever introduced to their computers.

I just purged Apple from my life largely because the touchbar continues to live on. Love my new Lenovo, btw.

As a workaround for the touchbar that worked pretty well, I bought a silicon keyboard protector for the Apple Magic Keyboard, cut out the area for the function keys, and used hot glue to glue it over the touch bar.

Prevented the touchbar from activating at the slightest touch and did return some of the feel of actually having a row of keys.

Plus, the hot glue causes no damage to the aluminum and does hold for a good period of time.

Turn this into a product people could purchase and you'd become rich :)

The original Apple ][ had a reset key in the upper right corner of the keyboard that was WAAAAAY too easy to press.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/1b/53/e31b53767fad646fc635...

They eventually put a stronger spring under it so it was harder to press, but it was still terrible. There was actually a thriving after-market for $3.25 "RESET KEY PROTECTORS": square plastic tube shields that fit over the reset key so you had to stick your finger down inside of it to press reset.

https://apple2history.org/history/ah13/

RESET KEY PROTECTOR, which prevented accidental RESET on the earliest models of the Apple II, was available for only $3.25 from Special Systems Design. This was necessary because the RESET key, on the upper right of the keyboard, was easy to press because it had the same spring action as the other keys on the keyboard. Various methods (like this product) were used to stiffen that key, and make it harder to press.

https://imgur.com/a/jGpcT4Z

Special Systems Design ad for Apple ][ Reset Key Protector, from Apple Orchard v1n1 1980 Mar Apr, page 107.

https://archive.org/details/Apple-Orchard-v1n1-1980-Mar-Apr/...

I swear on my Apple ][ (which had the stiffer spring under reset) you had to press ctrl at the same time. Mine had an after-marked Videx keyboard controller though, and maybe that was a feature of that controller?

edit: indeed, yes it was:

https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...

I forgot how amazing this controller was:

https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...

It had macros:

https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...

There is a switch on the keyboard interface card inside the ][+ that allows you to toggle between requiring CTRL be held down, or just pushing the reset key. I would assume that this was added later, and wasn't available on the earlier models.

This brought back memories of using my first computer, a Mac IIci my dad gave to me and my brother. We had the mouse set up in front of it in a way that it was way pretty easy to hit the reset and debugger buttons, which seemed to happen more often in the middle of a spited game for some reason...

Reminded me of how many times we'd accidentally kick the front of the nintendo on the floor and reset it.

Around 1994 or so One mac model (system 7) was notorious for having a power switch next to the floppy drive that looked like the eject button.

Those of us from a windows / unix back ground where for ever pushing the power button when we wanted to eject a floppy.

I admire your resourcefulness and dedication, but it hurts me that people are resorting to literally cutting and pasting hardware workarounds just to recreate what had been a standard part of computer keyboards for decades until some highly paid, well-meaning design team decided to screw with it completely unnecessarily.

Hey Apple laptop division, if you or your social-listening analysts are reading this: I hope the price inflation permitted by inclusion of the Touch Bar helped offset the lost lifetime value of the customers that it continues to repel.

They didn't do it unnecessarilly, Apple's whole thing has been always shipping something different for the sake of being different. Sometimes it works fine, and sometimes it flops hard.

See - gems like the iMac hockey puck mice. I still wonder - who thought that was a good idea..?

Well, your take on the infamous puck mouse perfectly summarizes my attitude toward the Touch Bar: who thought this was a good idea?

Different for the sake of being different is raison d'etre for strong brands.

My GF has a 2019 macbook pro and is using a silicon keyboard protector to avoid the touchbar as well.

I want to upgrade my macbook, but I've laughed so often at its 30$ fix for its 2000$ laptop that I just can't update to a macbook with touchbar with a straight face anymore.

I hate the Touch Bar as well, and I am very happy with my 2020 Air with a fixed keyboard and no Touch Bar. But can't you just remove the icons from the Touch Bar or set it to display the Fn keys?

https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/02/27/customizing-touch-b...

The problem is that it is too easy to accidentally touch. Even if you set it to the Fn keys, a slightless faint of electrical conductivity between a side of your finger and the touchbar while you are pressing a number suffices for a key press. With a real key, you actually have to properly press the key. That might happen by accident, but is definetely harder.

Yes. It's the moments when you're carefully editing something really important... precisely pasting some line into a new location... you double and triple checked that everything is right.... and then BOOM your window is gone and replaced by some other app, or a control panel or... some weird thing happens and you're not sure what.

It's ridiculous.

You wouldn't have any pictures of that silicon keyboard fix, would you? Or even a short tutorial?

I use Karabiner Elements to map space+1 through space+0 to F1 through F10.

I believe macOS sets up ^[number] shortcuts to do exactly that as well?

I believe the default for Ctrl-1 is to go to the first space.

But what I meant is to hold down the spacebar, then hit 1, and to make that be the same as hitting the F1 key. Because with a touchbar, there is often no F1 key, or you have to look to find it.

The Karabiner Elements profile called SpaceFN has the spacebar do double duty: If you hold it down and then press another key, then it acts as a modifier (like shift and ctrl and cmd). If you just hit the spacebar itself then it acts as the normal space key.

Wow, is there no software setting to simply disable the touchbar inputs?

Yes, you can customize and remove all the buttons so it effectively does nothing. I only have volume control on mine. This thread is a little odd with the heavy-handed touchbar hate.

You're missing the point. People don't want "nothing" up there, they want the keys that belong there.

It's great that it doesn't bother you, but some of us use those keys.

It have an easy solution, though... I just won't buy one.

Yeah, I don't like the butterfly keys, but the touchbar seems neutral to me. I've never accidentally hit the touchbar while typing. And while it has always seemed a bit gimmicky, I do appreciate some of the controls (sound, brightness, etc.).

Honestly, this is a pretty regular occurrence and, in my opinion, just stems from people not even giving the Touch Bar a fair shake. As someone whose job is split between software/web development and media production/design, I'm incredibly happy with the Touch Bar. The only places I see people complaining about it is here on Hacker News and other developer-heavy sites where people just refuse to change their workflows even the slightest. I get that they don't want to and feel like they shouldn't have to but it's so ridiculous to me.

I would be upset if Apple removed the Touch Bar now. Sure, offer a Touch Bar-less option for these Luddites who won't even consider an alternative option but don't regress for their sake.

It’s not just that. Where’s the tactile escape key? I’ve had my 2019 for a couple of months and this is the most frustrating change over my glorious 2015 mbp

On the new MacBook Pros?

Thanks for sharing, knew there had to be something easier than hot-gluing stuff on the laptop!

That said, I would choose physical keys over a touch bar myself.

Can you get rid of the persistent `esc`? I haven't been able to figure out how.

So many homemade tweaks to fix glaring issues in expensive, premium products...

Remember the iPhone 4 where you had to hold your phone in a certain way so it wouldn't block the antenna? It's amazing that Apple can pump out products with issues like this year after year and still be a top dog.

You make it sound like Apple is the only one making hardware that has issues sometimes. They simply have to be better than the competition, and most of the time they seem to be.

Signal strength would be better if you hold it in a certain way and this was true for some other phones as well. I had an iPhone 4 and never paid attention to how I held it, and it always worked perfectly fine. Maybe it's because I used a bumper most of the time (like most people, at least here in Europe).

The return rate of the iPhone 4 was much lower than that of the 3GS [1], so apparently it did not affect many users in practice.

It's still bad design, but when I compare it to widespread issues I had with other tech devices relatively minor (e.g. spontaneously resetting Moto X 2013, self-destructing Moto 360 smartwatch back, etc., constant BlueTooth headphone drops on the Nokia 7 or 7.1).

The (by far) worst Apple design issue that affected me and people I know was the butterfly keyboard. It has left me sour for years and I considered to stop using Macs. I am very happy they have finally resolved that now. But many of the butterfly MacBooks were simply defective products. Only the later generations with seals hold up pretty well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4

+1 to TouchBar hate. It was a major factor in "upgrading" my personal machine to a 2020 Air, which is the best (least-worst?) of all worlds: Touch ID + F-keys. Luckily the size/performance tradeoff works for me; but anyone who needs the fastest Mac portable is boned.

My work machine is the new 16" MBP, and while the new keyboard is the best they've ever made, and the return of Esc is welcome, the goddamn TouchBar still drives me up a wall (especially when tweaking audio volume, which is something one wants to do instantly and reflexively).

The UX for volume and brightness on the touchbar isn't as intuitive as I'd expect from Apple, but you can press and slide to adjust them. Took me a few weeks to realize I didn't have to tap the volume or brightness button and then adjust using the up or down buttons.

Whoa. I've been on the 16" MBP for a few months now and didn't know that. This reduces my hatred of the touch bar by double digit percentages, for sure. Thank you!

Yes, that helps, but I still have to take a beat and look down, as opposed to muscle-memory and not even thinking about it.

It's easy to change this behaviour

Open the System Preferences app. Select the Keyboard option (third row, sixth item) On the first tab (also called Keyboard), locate the dropdown for "Touch Bar shows" and choose "Expanded Control Strip".

While I'd still prefer keys, this is quite helpful, thanks for sharing!

The touch bar forces you to look at what you're doing in a place that should strictly be muscle-memory, and it's a flat surface that isn't safe to touch in an area where you rest your hands.

More than once I've hit the "back" button and inadvertently evicted myself from a browser video call, just by putting my hands on the keyboard.

tl;dr - Glad they brought back the escape key, now get rid of the rest of the touch bar.

My wife bought a MacBook Air last year, and the row of function keys with Touch ID sensor at the end is perfect. I'm so jealous, and hope they add the option to get that keyboard layout on the next iteration of the MBP.

I'm using the F-keys to switch workspaces on the fly. I can't imagine going back. Pass on Mac.

> USB-C was all about standardizing.

USB-C is all about having a thinner connector and giving the appearance of standardizing.

Previously if the cable fit, it worked. There were just a bunch of different cables but that had largely settled down to USB-A cables to like 2 maybe 3 connectors on the other end.

Now we have cables that have the same connector on each end but do vastly different things and there's no clue as to what.

- Does it carry data or just power?

- Does it carry a video signal?

- How much data can it carry?

- How much power can it charge?

A USB-C cable that does everything is limited to about 30cm (1 foot) in length, give or take. I know because I use them to connect to a USB-C dock. If I wanted a longer cable to connect to something else, I could. I'd just have to remember not to use it for the dock.

How is this a good user experience?

USB-C is shit. Apple lightning physical connector is still lightyears ahead in reliability, maintenance (dust) and physical size.

USB-3 standard is even a bigger mess. This whole USB 3.2 Gen 2 x 2 is the biggest clusterfuck in the history of naming things.

Somewhere I read that USB-C's cable design was informed by Apple's experience with thee lightning connector. In particular, one of the changes is that the lightning connector has the springs on the hardware side, which means that if the springs break, you have a major headache. USB-C puts the springs in the connector, so if the springs break, you just buy a new cable. That seems like a pretty big improvement, to me.

Anything can brake. It is all about probabilities, potential failures etc.

Spring failure is less probable than breaking a male part of a connector.

If a spring breaks, you have a second one.

If both break, you keep the charging functionality.

You break the male connector. Game Over.

…then you buy a new connector, as mentioned previously?

I mean the most delicate part, a male part in the usb-c port itself. Naming is hard >_<

Oh yes, that part always seemed like a weak spot to me. I guess it prevents exposed connectors on the cable? But that's not all that useful…

exactly :/ Just plain silly. I've already seen two phones in the wild with the damaged usb-c port. User made an error and tried to charge usb-c with micro usb? Yes. Was that preventable with a better design? Yes.

It's also not as sturdy. I managed to break one of my ports on a 2016 macbook. Now I try to never let the cable hang from the port.

So now that I'm mostly working from home, I bought a Thunderbolt monitor, and the setup is actually pretty awesome. The montior has both USB-C and USB-A inputs. I've got a physical network cable plugged and my USB-A mechanical keyboard plugged into the monitor; and of course the monitor also acts as a charger for the laptop.

Boom -- instant docking station: Plugging in a single standard cable gives me power, ethernet, monitor, and external keyboard.

Obviously you have to carry around a USB-C adapter when actually traveling, but if you get a good all-in-one adapter that does ethernet, HDMI, and USB-A, I haven't found it too disruptive. Hopefully the USB-C form factor will take over and then stay as long as USB-A has.

Which monitor?

There were two I was looking at with the same LCD component, but just different configuration of controls & placement of external USB. The one I ended up going with was LG32UL950 because I found a place that had a $150 discount; now forgotten the other brand/model. The screen is so huge I've had to spend some time figuring out how to use the space effectively, but overall I'm pretty happy.

Interesting, I don't see an ethernet port. Do you use a USB adapter?

Er, yes -- I had written that it was a USB ethernet dongle plugged into the monitor, but I seem to have edited that out.

I've used the Dell U3219Q for over a year for this purpose. Importantly, the monitor provides 90W of power, which is needed for the larger laptops, especially when running power intensive tasks. Most USB-C monitors do not provide enough power.

> I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all

True, although they could have done what many of the pc laptop makers have done. They still provide their proprietary charger with many models (ie. ThinkPad connector), but the USB-C port can also be used to charge the computer if you one already or want to pony up for a USB-C charger. For example, I've used my macbook pro charger to charge my last couple PC laptops too (ThinkPad and Acer). Like you said, then I only need one charger on my desk.

I assume these manufacturer's do this because their own charger, especially the barrel chargers that some manufacturers use, are cheaper than USB-C chargers/cables. In Apple's case, they could have kept the magsafe connector because it's a better connector. But, I assume it was lost to cost savings or aesthetics.

I don't understand why people hate the touch bar or the keyboard. It's imperfect yes but the entire MBP keyboard+trackpad layout enables me to be insanely productive. The only reason I don't buy something like a Mac Mini is because I can't get a peripheral keyboard that is the same as the one on the MBP. The only thing I wish it had was a number pad.

Maybe you're just not realizing its potential. I definitely recommend checking out some cool extensions to the touch bar such as Pock https://pock.dev/

So there are a couple of glaring problems:

1. The keyboard. Ugh. The keyboard was ostensibly changed to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of an MBP. 0.5mm. The old chiclet keyboard was fine. The new one is basically worse in every way. It's louder, feels crappier to type on, has a high failure rate (as witnessed by Apple's free repair program) and is otherwise expensive to replace. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about the keyboard; and

2. The touch bar. This was is more mixed. The big problem is you don't have an option for not having it and Apple's reason for adding it is simply to raise the ASP (average selling price) of Mac SKUs. That's it. The old Macbook Air was too successful. Many people object to it because you lost a row of function keys with tactile feedback (ie physical key). Some really objected to the loss of a physical Escape button. Probably vim users.

I agree with you that Touch ID is great. I sure wish the latest iPhones had it (you could put a sensor on the back if you didn't want to lose the screen real estate). Face ID is absolutely atrocious.

Anyway, the problem here is that basically Johnny Ive went insane, chasing thinness to the extreme. Design is the art of compromise (as they say) and no compromising on thinness led to shitty products (eg the 12" Macbook).

There are many people here (myself included) that for years simply wanted a 13" Macbook Air with an upgraded screen (as close to edgeless as possible and higher res) and more memory. That's it. We waited for years. We got the shitty 12" Macbook instead.

It's incredibly frustrating to be so close to perfection but to take a giant step backwards instead.

Well put. I tried the new 16" keyboard, and while its way better than my 2018 MBP, its still not good enough. Chasing thinness really just seems to be something a select few wanted. As the name implies, I wanted a "Pro" laptop that had high spec processing, ram and storage. What I got is a laptop that doubles as a lap warmer, white noise generator, and user hostile to OS environments other than MacOS. So now I have a mid spec Surface Pro for development, and use the macbook for more creative type endeavors. I wish I could find a way to extract the keyboard from this surface and put it in my macbook. That would make me less annoyed by the heat and fan while running windows.

I disagree with everything stated here and, maybe I'm just lucky, but I haven't had any issues at all with the keyboard on any of my Macbook Pros (work, personal, or my SO's) and I can't go back to not having a Touch Bar.

I'm really curious about the numbers surrounding this. Especially with the latest sales figures, I'm curious if this is just a vocal minority or if most users agree with you that this is a step backward.

I guess a large part is that you can't use it without looking at it. If you're a touch typist you want to be able to do everything on the computer without thinking or moving your hands from the home row.

The Touchbar is terrible for Visual Studio Debugging. I have to take my eyes off the screen and cant rest my finger on F10 to step through code. That is ANTI productive. One of the reasons I spring for a macbook is so I can run MacOS, Windows or Linux on solid hardware. The touchbar is fine for things like Logic ProX or some other non development tool, but I need permanent function keys to work in Windows/Visual Studio. Thats a large part of what I do. IMO the touch bar is a GREAT idea if you also have physical function keys on the keyboard.

I don't hate it as much as I hate that it isn't an option. If it were a $500 add on I would never ever choose it as an option for my laptop, and now it's kind of mandatory if you want a fast macOS laptop. I will accept a laptop from my company with the touchbar, but I don't know that I would be willing to buy one myself. It's been a while since I used windows or linux as my dev OS, but might be willing to give it a shot with a good thinkpad. I hope apple makes it an option for the bigger faster MBP

I can't stand the Macbook Pro keyboard and touchpad. I accidentally input the touchpad on the regular basis because it's enormous, and the keyboard slows down my typing speed substantially. My "o" repeats somewhat often as well, as other people have suggested.

My best quality of life improvement with this machine was to connect an external windows keyboard and mouse. Swap the windows key with the alt key, and you have a beautiful macos keyboard.

I decided to become an early adopter of "USB-C for everything" in ~2017 and do not regret it. Between my laptops (work + personal), tablet, phone, VR, game console, headphones it is really nice to have a single 65w wall wart and a single cable that works for everything and only need to bring one charger.

The one holdout still is an e-ink e-reader, the Kindle Oasis's top review is a one-star review talking about lack of USB-C.

I might switch to an apple-based consumer tablet when they put USB-C on them. The pro tablet models already have USB-C but I don't need that kind of power.

USB-C is really nice. There are some complaints about cables but if you buy brand name cables (anker, cable matters, etc) they seem to last forever and don't have the problems the tech blogs speculate about.

I think twice in five years am I glad I had the magsafe adapter but I'm happy to live without it to avoid carting around a proprietary charger all the time. We lost my wife's magsafe charger while traveling and found out that those cannot be bought for any price when in rural areas, especially outside of first-world countries. Every town has a shop that sells/services USB-C phones/tablets/laptops though.

USB-C would take off like wildfire if there actually existed any proper USB-C hubs - not what's currently called a "USB-C hub" which is more like a breakout box which at best replicates the single USB-C port it takes up and adds a bunch of legacy ports; I'm talking about a proper hub that plugs into a single port and turns it into multiple ports, like those dirt cheap old USB-A hubs. You literally cannot move to an all-USB-C existence because with rare exceptions 1 port = 1 device.

As I've written before on HN:

A hub with multiple USB-C downstream ports cannot exist with any sort of reasonable UX. The C port supports multiple "alternate modes," which remap USB-data pins to other functions (like DisplayPort, HDMI, Thunderbolt, analog audio, etc.)

The various alternate modes are not simply transporting display/audio/Thunderbolt data over a USB channel. It's the difference between packet switching and circuit switching.

Plugging in, for example, an HDMI adapter to one downstream port affects what devices can be plugged in to other downstream ports.

A true HDMI adapter would revert all other downstream ports to USB 2.0. But... an HDMI adapter that's really a DisplayPort with internal DP -> HDMI converter can potentially allow USB 3.0 on the other downstream ports (or, potentially, ONE other port with DP and the rest with USB 2.0).

Either way, plugging in the HDMI adapter means your USB-C headphones might stop working (depending on whether they are analog or have an internal DAC).

How are users expected to understand that they need a certain type of USB-C headphones and a certain type of HDMI adapter in order for both to work at the same time?

From the point of the user: I have a mouse, a keyboard, a display, an external drive, and occassionally I need to plug in a flash drive, printer or some other device. There is one or two of those new small rounded USB ports on my computer which is not enough. How can I possibly plug in everything I need?

It's not the users' fault that the whole USB-C thing amounts to a very fast, very efficient and elegant garbage fire. It's the greatest port ever, it can do everything, except not at the same time, so I have to choose whether I want to plug in my keyboard or my display.

> How can I possibly plug in everything I need?

You cant. That's the entire point of my post. There's no way to accommodate your desire[1] with the USB-C port.

[1] To plug everything into one port with some sort of port expander thingy and have it "just work".

The best way I can sell Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to myself is that at Apple's size, they need to be able to sell (to consumers, courts, governments) that they aren't being anti-competitive, so by switching to designs that are open and standardized (Thunderbolt 3 is a spec, not a patent) they can better sell their market dominance as not driven by patents and lawyers.

I personally wish Apple would make something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char...

Before any of you see that and go "awesome, exactly what I was looking for!" - I've had several coworkers try various models of those adapters and all have told me they universally suck. Don't waste your money.

I trust Apple could do it with quality - frankly I'd be willing to spend $50+ for a reliable version of that.

I've got another trick to use in place of a Magsafe type cable. Get a cable that is a few feet longer than you need, and attach a couple magnets a few feet apart on the cable. Then click the magnets together. Now you have a cable with a loop that is held closed by the magnets. If someone trips over the cable, the magnets come apart and pull out slack from that loop, instead of pulling the cord on the back of the laptop.

Not quite as good as having the cord detach, but it still helps in the majority of minor trip-induced cord pulls (depending on how much clack in the cable you leave bundled between the two magnets).

Are you selling this on Instagram? I just got an ad in my feed for a product that does that

No, I was thinking of designing and 3D-printing a magnet holder clip -- didn't realize someone else thought of it too. I guess what they say is true, there is no unique new ideas.

Is what you saw just a couple clip on magnets (like what I was thinking), or is it a two-piece cord held together by magnets (like the previous comment mentioned)? That would be cool if someone already makes this as a product.

The product was a full integrated cable. I won't buy it for that reason as I would 1) like to retrofit my existing cables and 2) be able to choose the cable for the spec of the cable itself. If you made a clip and magnet for retrofitting on existing cables I would buy it if it was offered for a reasonable price.

Anecdotally, I’ve been using one of these (different brand but looks exactly the same) with zero issues between a Thinkpad X1 and a USB-C hub. It’s extremely convenient to be able to attach everything (PD, HDMI, USB) from a single cable that’s literally touchless. The magnet and positioning allows it to automatically connect when I set the laptop on my desk, and to use the laptop elsewhere I just pick it up and carry it away. Much better than a floppy MagSafe that only does power.

If you look into those magnetic things a little bit you'll notice they don't support full thunderbolt data rates. It’s largely physics that’s holding us up, not necessarily Apple. In theory data rates don’t matter strictly for charging but then we’d be back at a different cable/port for charging vs data transfer which would be subpar UX. If nothing else I think it’s why you only see these things aftermarket. I do share your sentiment, though.

It seems to depend on what you use them for.

In my experience, they're good for power. Driving a 2.5k monitor over DisplayPort works reasonably well if the computer is on a solid surface (not your lap).

But they don't work well for 4k video (especially with a direct HDMI adapter) or USB 3.0 data.

I purchased that. It doesn't suck. Though, I bet Apple could do better if it were integrated.

I've been using that exact adapter for several months now and I'm pretty happy with it. Carries power and data for my home setup + I have a separate one just for power for my mobile setup. What were your coworkers' complaints about it?

"Market dominance" might overstate the case.

Apple makes up for a small percentage of all laptops sold, even if you compare manufacturers (rather than "Apple" vs "Windows machine"). They have a smaller share of laptop sales than HP, Dell, or Lenovo, and very close to the same (depending on when you look) as Acer and ASUS:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/818439/global-notebook-c...

My gripe with the touch bar is that for every IDE you have to customise it to see the function keys by default. It's so damn annoying. Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ?

Because 95% of the people don't use them and for them having an emoji picker, a volume, brightness control is more useful. The small group of people who actively use the Fn keys can just enable this checkbox at the settings.

Someday they should make a pro model for the 5% of people who don't care about emoji pickers.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a big mainstream corporation to address the needs of 5% of their market share.

And lose touch typing

You can change it to show the F-keys by default in macOS settings. Then by pressing Fn you can view the "special" mode.

"Settings: Keyboard: Touch Bar shows" lets you permanently set to F keys or (my preference) the Extended Control Strip.

> Why can't the default layout be just the Fn keys ?

Because then no software would have used it. (Said ironically)

FWIW, I really hate IDEs (usually ported over from other platforms with little thought) that use function key shortcuts for commonly-used actions. I instantly remap "run" in every IDE to ⌘R.

I wonder why they haven’t replaced touchID with FaceID on MacBooks. There’s a camera and I find FaceID to be so much more seamless.

FaceID requires more than a camera, there's an additional sensor involved

I suspect it's because of the target thickness the lid -- and the camera is located in the part that tapers.

Does the sensor need to be in the same place as the camera or could it be at the bottom of the screen?

The day has come. Last year or so ;)

Macbook, Ipad Pro, Cheap phone (Moto G / Pixel 3A) everything on my desk shares just one power brick.

There are unfortunately some devices that are nominally USB C but don't actually support the spec properly, like the Nintendo Switch. So some caution is required still.

I'm charging my Switch with random cables just fine? I've heard that the issue was only with third party docks, not with USB-C cables.

The Switch may or may not freak out in the face of arbitrary USB-C chargers; but it's always supported Apple's USB-C chargers just fine. (I get the sense that Nintendo developed the console by relying on Apple USB-C chargers, until they made their own.)

Doesn't work on the dock though.

I travel a lot with my Macbook + Switch and I only ever bring my Macbook's USB-C charger. It works fine with the Switch dock.

I thought more recent Switch firmware updates had closed that gap. Could be wrong.. I don't really remember where I read it.

In what was does the Nintendo Switch break the standard?

https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_... (the Google+ links won't work anymore, of course).

I love the Touch Bar. I have almost never used the F# keys in macOS apps, in a whole decade now.

The touch bar is really, really awful. I'd definitely pay more to get rid of it.

- It's incredibly sensitive, so a slightly misplaced touch on the number row sometimes results in a wild function key that snaps me out of whatever I'm doing (launches iTunes, goes to Spaces, adjusts brightness).

- It's distracting. It's either a lighted row of fake buttons, or a constantly changing offering of useless app shortcuts. It turns on and off (again, distracting).

- The UX of using it as function keys is in every way worse than a physical button. You can't tell if the click registered by feel. Sometimes it even seems like it reacts to a click but then nothing happens.

I (a) remapped escape and (b) taped a piece of cardboard over everything except the fingerprint scanner, and the touch bar works much better.

> in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all

I predict a future with USB-D that's incompatible with USB-C and on and on...

Everything is going wireless. There are still some items that require plugging in but headphones, keyboards and mice, even hard drives, are all going wireless.

The Asus Zenbook, and the Asus Zenbook Duo, seem to expand on the idea in a more useful way. I am a bit surprised we didn't see the Macbook Pro go to a similar design (I.E. using the track pad as a display, or moving the track pad and adding a second display).

A standard data cable for laptops is fine I guess, but I want a distinct power-only cable that isn't complicated enough to enable malware attacks. And battery swaps. And a pony.

"After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. "

With BetterTouch Tool I have set it up so it's halfway usable. Still worse than the old function buttons though.

what are the adjustments you made with bettertouchtool?

I have volume and display brightness buttons, also a mute button and play/pause. They are permanent and don’t switch with the application. Pretty much like it was before the Touchbar....

I tried to use the Touchbar for a while without customization but I never could get the hang of it. It just seems useless.

Is that different from System Preferences > Keyboard > Touch Bar shows Expanded Control Strip?

You have more options. But it has been a while since I set this up so I don’t remember exactly.

Same here: I love the Touch ID but the touch bar is awful. The bar always moves around and the buttons I want are always at a different spot or just not there.

Magsafe or no Mac. Also touch bar needs to go. I mean, regardless of usability, just look at that eyesore! It used to be that Macs were for professionals. Now it's for showoffs only. Sorry. I really used to love Macs...

And yet you still can't charge an iPhone with USB-C.

I'm REALLY hoping this was the last major revision of iPhone (and airpods) to retain lightning. I won't hold my breath but I hope they finally make the move to usb-c.

Consolidate on something, at least. Here are the connectors to devices purchased from Apple in the past 12 months:

Beats Studio headphones: micro-USB (for serious, Apple?)

Beats Powerbeats Pro: Lightning

iPad Pro: USB-C

iPhone XS (a little more than 12 months ago): Lightning

See a pattern there? Yeah, me neither. I might as well have purchased them from separate vendors. And Lightning at this point isn't even a standard within Apple, it's just some jackass proprietary shit you have to buy special cables for.

Useful figures, so thanks for providing those. It's been a few months since I last looked into the latest prices. I agree with you that it's still worth it.

However, I feel that without comparing the OS and tight OS integration, this doesn't represent one of the most important aspects of a comparison between the two, when considering a purchase.

I go through this same loop every time I buy a new machine... yes, usually it's "no more Apple for me!" especially when I do the price comparison. So I waver for a couple of weeks whilst I research the latest hardware and Linux distros. But then I end up buying an Apple machine. It's been the same story for me for the last 17 years.

There's plenty of people like me out there that definitely don't want to use Windows, and that want a Unix that gets out of the way. I love Linux, especially on the server, but it's generally too much hassle on a laptop and so I always gravitate back to macos.

If the $600 is an Apple tax for that, then I will gladly continue to pay it. Over the 3 years lifetime of a developer machine (or more!), my time is definitely worth more than $600 compared with constantly fiddling with Linux kernal modules and other hardware support issues. I just want to get some work done without interruptions.

Definitely would love the exact same machine without the TouchBar, though. Perhaps that would shave off $100?

I came to Macs as a longtime Windows/Linux user for software developmemt. There's no way I would ever go back. My 2015 Air is rock solid, never any problems despite being used 8-12 hours per day and you get Unix underneath. Just bought a new Air so I can have a backup machine.

Could not agree more with this. I'd sooner buy an "ancient" secondhand MacBook Air than use Windows or attempt to use Linux on a laptop.

I find the the touch bar obviously annoying, but that annoyance is so minor compared with the annoyances of Windows or running Linux on a laptop. Honestly it seems like a lot of people have quite the double standard when it comes to Apple products.

This is also coming from someone who was forced to use Windows professionally for several years (worked on CAD software).

Dang I'm the total opposite. 1 round in the Apple ecosystem and I'd never touch their products again.

I can't understand the appeal outside the marketing gimmicks.

It sounds like a number of things p*ed you off, but what was your biggest gripe with the Apple stuff? Or perhaps it was everything (!).

I'm in a similar position and I can answer for my situation. I bought iPad 3 back in 2012 I think. I liked it a lot and I bought iPhone 4S which I liked even more (until they released iOS 7 but that's theme for another rant). After that I understood that I love Apple approach and decided to buy a Macbook as I wanted to write some apps and also needed new laptop at that time. I bought Retina Macbook Pro 15" mid 2012.

Well, it was worst laptop I ever saw. Software was good, I still love it. SSD broke in the second month, so I took it to repair and it was in repair for another month until replacement SSD arrived. Thankfully it was covered by warranty and that's the only good thing about this situation. I used it for 2 years and then it just started to tear apart.

Charger cable failed. I bought new at aliexpress, tried to replace it and almost caused a fire, so I had to buy a new charger which costs like a cheap laptop LoL.

Keyboard failed. Right now half of keys just do not work, another half of keys work if pressed hard enough. And I did not spill anything there, they just don't register presses. I'm using USB keyboard to work on it.

Audio port failed. There's some switch there to detect optical cable or something like that. That switch is stuck, so red laser always lighting out of there and macOS thinks that I inserted a headphones, so speakers do not work. And headphones do not work either. I'm using USB headphones if I need sound.

It sometimes panics. I think that something's wrong with GPU. It's Nvidia GPU and I've read that it was poorly soldered. Not sure.

Its battery almost dead, it can live for a 10 minutes of low-power usage. Of course I can't replace a battery, because it's glued.

Even on charger it gets hot on load pretty quickly and then it starts to throttle. Its CPU going lower than 1GHz. And system becomes very laggy, everything slow as hell. Its cooling just terrible. Sure, it's a laptop, but I never experienced such a slowdown with other laptops. I was very disappointed with Apple engineering.

I've used few laptops in my life. Not a single one of them caused so many issues. Not a single one of them had faulty charger cable. All of them have easily replaceable battery.

Also in my country I'm paying heavy Apple tax, Apple devices typically cost 30-50% more than in US, but other manufacturers have more sane prices, so I would have to pay much more extra.

I went back to Windows and I'm pretty happy. I never liked Windows, but since Windows 10 it's actually good OS that works much more stable than macOS and have all the software I need.

My last hope was Mac Pro. But its price is just absurd, so that hope is vanished. Basically Apple does not make any computer that I would want to buy, all computers are antithetical to my needs. I want something that's reliable, bulky, powerful and repairable. Preferably a PC, as I don't really need a laptop. And they focus on the opposite properties. So while I loved macOS, there's nothing to run it on.

I'm thinking about hackintosh and probably will build my next computer considering it (can run Windows anywhere, so can select hackinosh-friendly parts anyway). But it seems that hackintosh in the future might be doomed (more proprietary hardware, may be even ARM migration), so probably that won't be a way to go either.

What funny is that I'm in a similar position regarding phones. I hate large screen phones and with discontinuing iPhone SE 1 Apple stopped producing the only phone that I'd want to buy. I'm using iPhone 8 now, but I don't like it and thinking about buying SE 1 instead. Too bad that Androids don't have any phones for me either, so it's more about phone industry rather than just Apple.

Thank you for taking time to write a detailed response.

Yeah, secretly I hope that some guy from Apple will read similar responses and will decide to release Mac Mini Pro or something like that, so I can just put good GPU there, put it on my desk, configure it with some entry Xeon CPU and ECC RAM and that's for $2-3k. And if something breaks or just in the future when I would want upgrades, I could just buy some Samsung SSD, put it there and enjoy improved performance, rather than spending all the money again for slightly bumped specs. Just an ordinary workstation computer with macOS support and reasonable price, nothing extra-ordinary.

iPhone was just slow with apps and annoying with sign in and update requests. This was annoying.

And they lacked features I was used to. I hear they finally got widgets, so that I suppose is solved.

I've had very good experiences with Linux on my laptop. Definitely more stable than windows, literally never had to fiddle with kernel modules or any sort of hardware support. Battery life is actually better than in windows.

You have to be a bit careful with the hardware, especially non Intel wifi/Bluetooth seems not well supported. And Nvidia graphics are a bit risky, but of the alternative is a MacBook that shouldn't matter as much

I've heard this a lot over the years, but it's never held up to scrutiny.

Usually there's a lot of manual config, driver issues, shitty hardware support, screen resolution issues, bad battery life, laptop suspend issues, terrible trackpad support, connecting to external monitor issues, etc.

I've had the best luck with Thinkpads and I still like Linux and have fun with this kind of thing, but it's not even close to macOS and I don't think it's really close to Windows either.

My issue with desktop/laptop Linux has always been the quality of the GUI-based software.

While I appreciate that people put in tons of time and effort to make these things available for free, I’d rather pay for something better, and on Linux I usually can’t.

As an example, our dev machines at the office run Linux, and it’s a great platform for the majority of the work we do. But I have to keep a Windows VM around for Office, because I can’t trust that LibreOffice isn’t going to completely mangle a file that I need to send to a client.

Dell has supported Linux officially on the XPS 13 variants since 2012. https://bartongeorge.io/2020/01/01/introducing-the-2020-xps-...

Thanks. I'm am aware of this. I research this all the time, and regularly come away disappointed. I don't know if I verbalised clearly enough, but I have actively wanted good options for years, and I'm always open to whatever alternatives are current at the time of purchase.

Seriously, I'm in the market for a new laptop and there are still too many concerns relating to support for these devices... not just Dell but usually for whatever manufacturer I'm looking at. Once you start reading about people's experiences there are always issues - many of which have been discussed to death on HN.

Just because Dell claim that Linux is officially supported does not mean that it will be a smooth ride. I don't think that has changed much at all over the last few years? But perhaps this year is different.

Do you own this though? If you're using this new XPS model without power consumption issues, excellent wifi (wifi chips issues seem to always be the main downer), good mousepad behaviour? Perhaps it's finally not a problem? I will gladly lap up any positive news that you can give on this front.

I'm using the Thinkpad X1 Carbon 7th generation and I feel like with the latest Ubuntu 20.04 LTS it's finally at the level of usability I want in a Linux laptop. Everything works out of the box, including the speakers, camera, microphone, wifi & bluetooth, and fingerprint reader. I can even use my fingerprint for sudo! (I did have to run one or two commands to get that working though). The trackpad is also great, if a little small. Probably comparable to the Dell's. Also haven't got a chance to test real-world power consumption because I'm stuck at home lately (thank COVID for that) but it seems to be okay.

>fingerprint for sudo

That's awesome! I just bought the new XPS 13 (9300) with 32gb of ram. Unboxing it today, I've heard it works flawlessly with Ubuntu 20.04 except the fingerprint reader, and Dell says that will be possible later this year.

Excellent! Now the positive news is rolling in :-)

Looking at that 7th generation model now. Actually... that looks really nice. And 20.04 LTS would be pretty good for me.

XPS 9560 4k model (2017 15") using Arch Linux. Recently formatted and re-installed arch (i had made a mess of some core linux things over the years and wanted a clean slate), and I don't recall any specific issues that were not user error trying to install or maintain an arch installation. The main "problem" that comes to mind is optimizing battery life while getting maximum performance from the discrete GPU. I chose not to go down that path--I just dual boot windows for games. As far as system stability goes, I've had zero issues with anything noteworthy. I've never done anything unique to my kernel settings on this device. Everything that i've needed worked out of the box. I may have needed to install some packages for drivers based on my device to improve performance (install nvidia drivers, possibly proprietary touchpad drivers).

Specifically: excellent wifi support, 5-7 hours of battery life, never had a trackpad issue.

Risk areas that i haven't investigated: backlight controls aren't working right now...thats the only thing that comes to mine.

And this is using arch. I'm sure Ubuntu is even more seamless.

I'm on the same machine. Also on Arch linux with Gnome Wayland as my DE.

It's been a complete delight. Actually, it's been leaps and bounds better than macOS Catalina on my work machine.

For me, the transition to Wayland made a HUGE difference. Trackpad actually feels basically the same as macOS, and better than windows 10.

Multi-monitor support is better than macOS (which loses my monitor arrangement consistently with two identical monitors and through a usb-c dock).

Bluetooth works as expected. (Not so for macOS catalina anymore, they've fucked up an truly astounding number of things...)

Suspend/resume are both fine.

Battery life is actually around 10 hours if I'm just doing light dev.

Basically - I've been pestering my office to let me switch for a while now. I'd take an XPS running linux over the current iteration of macbook/macOS hands down.

I switched from a macbook to a system76 laptop around 6 years ago and the only negative I noticed functionality-wise was the worse trackpad. But I would guess that different users are sensitive to different problems.

E.g. power management isn't much of an issue for me because I use my laptop unplugged for only a couple hours per day, so I wouldn't have noticed any problems related to that.

Ahh... good to hear.

I have been keeping an eye on the system76 stuff too - not just Dell. For a long time system76 seemed to only make laptops with large keyboards with extra number pads and asymetric mouse pads which put me off (many manufacturers do this, so it's not just them).

I notice that they finally have more tenkeyless models, so slowly but surely my checklist is being satisfied. Are you still able to use a recent version of Pop!_OS after all this time, or are you using another recent version of another distro? I'm interested in the longevity in terms of being able to install up to date OSes over the years. I mean that really shouldn't be an issue with Linux - support usually only gets better as time advances and new drivers / modules are written, but it would be nice to know how you got on, regardless.

I bought the laptop back when System76 used Ubuntu and have never tried their Pop!_OS, and I use Fedora nowadays. Haven't had any problems with newer versions of Fedora.

Not XPS, but I have used Ubuntu as main dev machine on Dell Latitude Laptop for more than 6 years without much issue.

Thanks. When you say "without much issue", have you ever lost more than a few hours to "required tinkering" over those years, or was it pretty much plain sailing?

Anything else I should take a look at? What would your ideal next laptop be?

Not the OP but I've been using various Thinkpads running Ubuntu since 2010. Been using Linux for many years prior to that on desktops. Also have my family kitted out with them (again on Ubuntu). It is possible to use just fine from a default install with none to very minor tinkering required. However if you do put in a few hours of tinkering you'll reap the rewards in having the laptop behave exactly how you want it to. Here's a hint, install tlp along with the thinkpad kernel access source ("sudo apt-get install tlp tp-smapi-dkms" on Ubuntu) and set the battery charge thresholds. This will help with runtime on battery and also extend the life of the battery itself. is set to start charge at 88% and stop at 95%. In the past five years my battery has only depleted by a few percent in capacity.

I have used Macs (had 2 Mac Book Pros and a Mac Mini) and Windows but its Linux all the way now, specifically Ubuntu LTS. Not sure how people put up with Windows 10's constant forced updates. If it has to be Windows give me Windows 10 LTSC.

Ideal next laptop? Probably a Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 7 or Dell XPS 2020.

Oooh. Nice details. I have bookmarked all of this info.

>> have you ever lost more than a few hours to "required tinkering" over those years

- Not really. And Linux ecosystem has improved tremendously in last 10 years.

For one of the colleague at the office, tried some Thinkpad , but that was not such a good experience. Now everyone on the team (> 30 people) gets Ubuntu Laptop or Desktop.

If you are going to use it main dev machine, then definitely Latitude. Ask Dell guys to preinstall it for you. They will install proprietary drivers for you.

I also have Macbook Pro 2015 model. Don't expect trackpad experience like it. I always use external mouse and keyboard any way.

Not tried XPS series yet, So can't comment.

If you're fine paying a consistent 600 tax, just make the leap and give a reasonable xps machine running linux another chance.

My work machine is a 13" macbook pro on Catalina, my personal project machine is a 15" dell xps from 2017.

Of the two, I'm delighted by the XPS running Arch/Gnome/Wayland.

I'm much, MUCH less delighted by the Catalina crap box.

I recently switched from an Air to an XPS 15 9570. I was very excited, it seemed to have all the best qualities of a MacBook, minus the shotty keyboard, and superior performance per dollar (at the time).

Things went downhill rather quickly. I've had massive cooling issues, I've removed and replaced the thermal paste. I've been forced to operate the laptop on the "Cool" thermal setting; downgrading the performance of the processor. Now, the two of the screws in palm rest, which hold the screen in place, have sheered right off. Doing some digging, this was commonplace with this particular model.

I'm not doing anything particularly intense either. Docker with a few containers running a dev website.

I can't speak for the latest XPS 15 7590 build quality however.

I've had a company-issued XPS 9570 for the last year, and overall I haven't had any big issues.

Cooling is sub-par, but I think that's mostly due to the Intel i9-8950HK running way over the advertised TDP during Turbo. Dell has been tweaking their cooling profile in subsequent BIOS updates, at with the latest version (1.15) they're quite aggressive on ramping up the fans to keep things cool. Which is good from a performance perspective, but really annoying to sit beside all day. While I didn't experience severe thermal throttling, I did end up disabling Turbo as it made the laptop sound like a jet engine too often for my taste.

My only other complaint would be that despite Dell's claims of 100W+ power delivery from their ThunderBolt dock (above and beyond what USB-C PD can deliver), I frequently find the laptop discharging the battery under moderate load (high CPU, idle dGPU) when connected via USB-C to the dock. Using the supplied DC charger solves this, but it's still a poor user experience.

At my previous employer I had a 2017 MBP. IMHO an XPS/Precision is a better option as you can (in no particular order): upgrade the RAM, upgrade the SSD, run Linux on it, and (until the new MBP release) had a much better keyboard experience.

As others have noted, Dell's enterprise warranty support is fantastic. I was able to invoke the warranty to replace a motherboard in a Latitude I bought used on eBay; they sent a technician to my house to replace it free of charge.

I will never buy a dell again, had an XPS 9550 (£2.7k 32gb ram, top of the range) - they had a chip in to detect a valid dell power adapter and that went so they wanted over 600 to replace the motherboard.

I bought a macbook and use the dell charger (udb-c) to charge my macbook.

My step-daughter spilled water on her MBA. It would no longer charge. It would run connected to AC, and the battery health was fine, but the "charging circuit" needed replaced, according to diagnostics.

Okay, I thought. $200, maybe $300, including parts and labor.

Not quite. They wanted $879. "Maybe we should look at getting you into a new Macbook instead?"

No thanks. It was almost never used unplugged anyway.

Sounds like they needed to replace the whole motherboard.

My 9370 is definitely just plain USB-PD, doesnt require a Dell charger. I can charge it with a inexpensive Anker charger.

600 is pricey for a mainboard replacement, but none of the other vendors are much better, including Apple. I previously had a Thinkpad that died shortly out of warranty, and they actually wanted more to fix it than I paid for it new.

I've had nothing but problems with 9570. Constantly overheating. It's a good day when I can get even 3 hours of battery life.

that was my experience as well before returning xps and getting a new macbook.

on any intensive work it would get so hot that i could not rest my hands on it.

I had an old XPS13, and eagerly ordered the XPS15 9570 fully loaded the moment it was available in the UK.

What followed was a year of fan noise, thermal throttling, GPU switching problems and many hours lost trying to get the right combination of Ubutunu + Nvida drivers working.

So when my house was burgled and that machine got stolen, I went back to the XPS13 form factor. Smaller, lighter, longer battery life, quieter. Only disadvantage being the max of 16GB RAM.

Once the XPS13 finally arrives with 32GB RAM I may well upgrade again.

The new MacBook Pro may tempt me, but I am certainly not giving up proper function keys.

I have a 9570 as well. I ordered the bare minimum memory and storage so I could swap in my own 16GB of RAM and 1 TB SSD. I also applied thermal pads to the VRMs and (less importantly) heatpipes so they conduct to the chassis. Lastly, I undervolted the CPU with Intel XTU. I have had no throttling issues and it has been a steadfast partner. I've never had a laptop I liked more. It took some upfront work, and that's not everyone's bag, but I honestly could not find a decent laptop that met my specs for under $3000. This one did it for $1600.

I had similar experience with 9360. The notebook freezes under heavy load and I have to restart (it happens once a day when working on rather large Android project). The webcam on the bottom left of the screen is a bad joke (I think they moved it elsewhere later?).

From what I can see, Dell has significant problems with quality control. That's why the feedback is so varied.

If you live in a city with good Dell support, you could probably have managed to replace it. Sounds like a hardware problem.

> it seemed to have all the best qualities of a MacBook

Except MacOS.

I think the resale value is Apples real strength. When I upgraded my 2016 13” mbp to the new airbook, Apple offered 60-70% of the airbook cost in return for the mbp. Because tech-wise there are just so many hood options. I ended up selling it to a local third party reseller that I’ve used in the past for 80% of the cost of the air. I can’t remember the original price for the mbp, but it was around what the air cost me.

Compare that to the surface pro my wife has, which essentially lost all its value the moment she walked out the store. It’s an excellent machine by all means, and Linux subsystem is great, but it’s not actually cheaper than a Mac when you factor in the resale value.

I do live in Denmark, and things may be different elsewhere, but the only hardware that has any resale value around here is Apple.

It really stuns me how “MacOS” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Pros (or the Cons). That’s literally the main discriminant between choosing an Apple machine over any other brand, and there’s no mention of it.

By missing that main difference the comparison is reduced to pure comparison of commodities, and of course the result is that the Apple machine is ‘unjustifiably’ more expensive. The Apple ecosystem is literally why people buy Apple machines rather than any other brand.

I’m also mystified nobody else brought this up.

At this point macOS is just a different list of pros and cons all by itself.

For me it is still the best OS experience by far.

Often a different list for each person.

MacOS has really stagnated over the years. I first started using it back in 2004, where its main competitor was pre-SP2 Windows XP. At that time you could really call MacOS advanced. At this point, it's sort of a wash. Windows does things better, Mac does other things better, and it mostly comes down to preference.

The old argument about security is mostly a wash now as well. (whereas with pre-SP2 Windows XP vs. OSX 10.4, you could legitimately claim that OSX was more secure.)

Back then, MacOS X didn't have enough third party apps to replace Windows workflow but the OS kept advancing on every release.

Now we have better third party apps on macOS than Windows but OS stopped advancing but who cares about OS anymore? It's all about apps nowadays.

My apps on Windows: KeePass, Chrome, Thunderbird, Putty, Oracle VM, Idea, EditPad Pro, Paint.NET, Battle.net, Discord, foobar2000.

My apps on macOS: Chrome, Thunderbird, OracleVM, Idea, Battle.net, Discord. Can replace Putty with Terminal ssh (I like Putty more, but that's not a big deal), can replace KeePass with text file (less security, but not a big deal either), can replace EditPad Pro with TextEdit (worse replacement, but I can live with it), can replace Paint.NET with Gimp. Not sure about foobar2000, may be DeadBeef.

And there's no software on macOS that I would miss in Windows. So that's questionable about third-party apps, at least for me. The only thing that I loved in macOS is its Terminal, because I know bash, but recently I learned a bit of PowerShell, so it's not a big advantage anymore. Also I can always spin up CentOS VM if necessary.

If you just want a unix shell this is going to be way lighter than a full-blown VM: https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/tutorial-ubuntu-on-windows#1-ov...

A fair opinion for some, but if there is still more application support on Windows, I don't see how this is a benefit to MacOS.

The macbook still electrocutes you when it's plugged in since the grounding is all fucked up.

This is still a problem: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969131

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-giving-me-e...

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10545/is-it-bad-th...

That's some... creative usage of the verb "electrocute", which implies death.

That said, I did feel the electric current when the 2012MBP was not grounded, but the 2017 model does not have the same problem.

When people tell me they were electrocuted I say, "oh, so you died?"

Language changes and evolves over time, this is normal and natural. Just because "elecrocuted" at one time only meant died from electricity, it doesn't mean it can't mean now that one simply got a jolt and didn't die.

Or do you still think "Google" just means a big number? Do you "literally" means "exactly" or can also be used to show strong feeling or emphasis.

I know, I do it to be cheeky.

Google doesn't mean big number, do you mean googol?

More specifically, you're using the non-grounded plug rather than a grounded one. Since the laptop is metal, it passes it to you and to the ground instead of through the dedicated circuit.

>More specifically, you're using the non-grounded plug rather than a grounded one

Yes, the one that comes with extremely expensive European 2019 16" Macbook Pro is not grounded.

I'm not sure they sell the grounded lead anymore. But maybe I should charge my work macbook with my personal xps 13 charger which is grounded (yay usb-c!)

Every Apple device I've owned has done this (iPad, iPhone, MacBook) :/

According to the forum posts, it's happening to everyone who uses the default plug, the extension that comes with a 3 pin plug resolves the issue.

I have one short and one long cable, and am only just now realizing the issue. I'd simply assumed the short one was a fake I'd gotten.

Can't speak to why your iPhone and iPad do the same thing, I've experienced it when using sketchy cheap lightning cables or wall adapters (including ghost touching), but not when using better built stuff (like AmazonBasics or Anker).

That's assuming that your house have grounded sockets. My house does not and most of old houses in my country are the same, only new houses have ground.

>This is still a problem:

The three posts you provided are from 2012, 2013, and 2011. So is it really still a problem?

I still feel minor electric shocks with my 2016 MBP if I charge it with my ThinkPad power plug and touch the chassis.

Are you in Europe perchance? I have a feeling that wiring in the EU is more prone to sparks than in the US, so maybe grounding behaves differently as well, due to some sort of variation in building and wiring codes.

No, live in the US.

I hate that so much. Physical punishment for using a laptop.

Not in EU with a grounded plug.

I cannot agree more. At least for myself i would add MacOS as a huge plus over any other laptop. I know many people work in Linux but I just for the life of me cannot make it as comfortable as MacOS.

I really like Linux, but switched to macOS years ago because the quality of most Linux software outside of the GNU ecosystem is very unpredictable and commonly faulty. Companies seem to hate supporting Linux, and I've had enough distro updates break my OS in the past that eventually I just got beaten down. MacOS gives me a Unix shell, a consistent UI, and I've never had a system update lead to a black screen, or a new UI that I hate, or half my installed software being broken. Let's not even get started on the support for most Linux distros. Even Ubuntu has what I would consider to be dreadful support, unless maybe you're a corporate client of theirs.

Linux is good if you can configure it for a very specific purpose, like a server, or a graphics workstation, or even web development. For general purpose, its warts grow the more you use it. Hopefully someone has a dangerous looking Bash one-liner that will solve all your problems.

I switched from Mac to Linux a few years back, haven't regretted it for a second (well, there were a few seconds in there that were touch-and-go).

I now run a tiling window manager (i3wm) on a Debian distro (PureOS, came with the laptop) and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I still use an external Apple keyboard (a magic keyboard from 2015 - y'know, when they were good hehe). The trackpad has never been quite up to the Mac's standard, so I use an external mouse too. But I was using an external keyboard and mouse even on the MBP, so no change there (just the option to switch to trackpad isn't as awesome).

Which laptop or desktop hardware are you using for your Linux setup.

After the Mac I bought a Dell XPS 15, which ran Linux fine but I had issues with the dual-boot and GRUB setup - I could probably have fixed them, but meh.

I then bought a Purism 13, which has been awesome (apart from a niggling problem with the space bar). Having a laptop designed from the ground up to be open, maintainable, and running Linux is an amazing experience. I had a problem with the screen on this one and tech support said "open up the back of the case and have a look to see if anything looks odd". I had more or less the exact same issue with the MBP and had to do without my laptop for a week while they replaced the screen.

The integration with iOS/iMessages/keychain/homekit /FaceTime is extremely convenient for me. I don't mind paying extra for it, and I like that they have stores near me.

I would definitely agree with that. Having bought into the Apple ecosystem brings software features that you can't get elsewhere.

Yeah, I'm sorry but the idea of dealing with linux compatibility on a laptop or running Windows is a complete dealbreaker for me. despite how bad the macbook pros get i just can't switch.

Good thing the Dell XPS developer edition ships with Linux already set up.

The thing I dont understand about OSX is the Finder situation. It's just awful. Installation is awful, finding applications is awful, navigating to the system folders is awful.

It's very much like Windows and it's pretending Desktop is the root folder and then hiding everything behind databases of My Documents.

Dont make me jump through hoops to find computery stuff.

> Dont make me jump through hoops to find computery stuff.

I'm curious what "computery" stuff you're looking for? If you're trying to modify stuff a "normal user" wouldn't touch, you'd be better off on the command line. Finder isn't meant for people who want to muck around with the system because everyday normal users shouldn't be messing with system files.

Personally I hardly ever use Finder. Cmd+Space to launch apps and then I use those apps to manage their document types. I develop using VSCode and I'm on iTerm I'd say 75% time anyways.

I don't get why power users shouldn't be afforded the power of graphical file management. The command line is not an adequate substitute for quickly navigating and managing the filesystem to me.

Maybe I'm not a "power user," but I'm using the Finder for graphical file management roughly every day and it's just not a super big issue for me.

These "Macs aren't for power users" threads always kind of fascinate me, because it's so clear how differently people define "power user," and at times it feels like a lot of people define it as "this system has defaults that I don't like" or, even more often around here, "If I ever feel like I have to touch my mouse the system is crap." Whereas for me, I want a launcher/workflow runner like Alfred, which very often is my "command line" for a lot of functionality. I can assign a keyboard shortcut to anything in any menu in any application at the system level. I can wrap Unix scripts in Automator actions and put them in the Service context menu, so I can highlight text in any application and run it through a filter with a single click. I drag the proxy document icon in the title bar of windows to perform actions on that file all the time. To me, these are totally "power user" things, while I've never once thought "man, if only I had a mouse-free tiling 'window' manager that just split the screen in multiple sections with no overlapping windows I would be so much more productive."

Also, I'm typing this on a 2020 Macbook Air and it has a terrific keyboard. With the release of this 13" MacBook Pro, AFAIK this eliminates the butterfly keyswitch from their lineup.

For managing files, the commandline is strictly more efficient than GUI if you ask me.

For navigating: try ranger.

https://github.com/ranger/ranger

I agree, and I think both options should always be available. to the user.

Seems really simple to open "Macintosh HD" in the Finder and find all the "computer-y stuff" I could want. I also added my homedir to the "favorites" list. There's also the very handy cmd-shift-g shortcut for "Go to folder" that autocompletes paths on tab (also under the Go menu which has a bunch of handy links, including Home, Computer, etc.).

I usually navigate directories from the command line. If I want to do something that needs Finder (like drag and drop a file) I run an "open ." to pop a Finder window with the current directory.

Shift-cmd-g, and you can put in any path you like, with autocomplete.

I live in the terminal and just `open .` when I need Finder for some reason (very rare for dev purposes).

I've actually found `open` to be the most indispensable thing on MacOs. The Linux versions don't cut it (`xbg-open` or something?) it opens applications in the foreground of the shell process so it takes over the terminal you were working in, so you have to write aliases to background the process.

You can write a script for that, something like `xdg-open $1 & disown` will cut it already. However managing the default applications on Linux is a ridiculous pain in the ass.

> Dont make me jump through hoops to find computery stuff.

Just press cmd+shift+period in the Finder to unhide all the hidden files and directories.

You can also write `open /path/to/somewhere` from any location in your terminal window to open the Finder at that spot.

CMD+up and you in `computery stuff`. Don't understand the problem

I would agree finder when compared to File explorer (and its Linux equivalent) or even file manger in windows 3.1 is the Mac OS's biggest weakness.

Genuinely curious, have you had your MacBook Pro knocked over from the power cord since switching away from MagSafe?

Lots of people complain about missing MagSafe but I’ve never seen or heard of this actually happening. I’m sure it has happened but it just doesn’t seem like a big problem. For me, just in the past month I’ve had the usb charger yanked out by the cord multiple times by people and pets tripping over it while working from home, but the laptop is heavy enough that it doesn’t budge and the cable comes out cleanly.

The benefit of having a standard port now, being able to get monitor, power, and usb connected through one cable, or being able to use the usb-c charger to charge other devices when traveling, is well worth the change IMO. I also used to get little metal specks stuck in the MagSafe port, and then realize the laptop hasn’t been charging all day and have to clear it out and make sure the contacts were connected securely. I wasn’t a big fan of MagSafe at all.

MagSafe was great when the average battery life was under four hours. You have to be plugged-in in weird places. It saved my laptop a couple of times when I was at University. The problem is not just knocking over the whole laptop, but you can damage the port as well.

With the current 8+ hours battery life, I only have it plugged in when I'm at my desk, so no risk of tripping over.

For me, the standard port overweights any other downside.

That's an interesting take on it

Still, I wouldn't want to discharge the battery if it's not needed as to save the cycles.

Isn't it worse to keep the battery 100% charged at all times?

Not any longer, as a modern device will discharge the battery a bit to keep it healthy.

I haven't had an incident yet, but I'm way more careful with a young kid (or myself). Leaving one charging on a couch, for example, isn't something I'm comfortable with both because of it sliding a foot or two on to the carpet or bending the connector.

More annoyance comes from removing of the charging indicators that were on the magsafe port. The only clue is a small "ding" sound when it starts charging, but is easy to miss and won't happen in deep sleep. I've plugged in a laptop not noticing someone had unplugged the other end until the next morning my computer was still dead. It was also nice that you could see that amber charging light turn green so you knew it was charged without opening the lid and waking it up.

I can see that it's not a necessity for many people, but I still have a 2015 13" Macbook Pro with MagSafe in addition to a newer 15" Macbook Pro, and my experience using both every day is that I positively mourn the difference.

I'm shocked that Apple has not taken it upon themselves to ensure that there's a usable magnetic adapter for the USB-C port, under their brand or through a partner. I've tried a couple of third-party adapters that were utter failures. I hope somebody succeeds someday, preferably Apple or with Apple's blessing, because I would be very slow to try another third-party adapter otherwise.

I knocked it over with MagSafe and it still failed to disconnect. It was the 2011 L-shaped plug and I managed to yank it at the perfectly wrong angle I suppose. The macbook lived but ended up with scratches and dents (that's how I discovered that an aluminum chassis maybe wasn't the best idea for a laptop). The new flimsy usb-c cable has a better chance of actually disconnecting.

I have younger kids, who would sometimes kick my cord with MagSafe and it wouldn't be a big deal; I would just connect again. Now I don't use my laptop around my kids if I'm charging.

The very first day I had my first USB-C mac i had an incident with my standing desk that Magsafe would have saved.

These days I tend to use my laptop at my desk with external monitors, but the thing that worries me the most when I'm somewhere else is the yanking of the cable weakening the and/or reducing the reliability. I had to re-solder the power adaptor on an old Acer a few times, I don't think I've got the parts or skills (or time) to do that on a few year old Mac.

The good thing about USB-C chargers, if you break the cable you can just buy a new one. No soldering necessary. I chew through a lot of MagSafe charges in the past few years. I fixed most of them, but you can't disassemble them without damaging it.

EDIT: If you talking about the connector inside your laptop, that is a different story.

Yeah, the connector inside the computer.

I was concerned about that myself, but so far so good. I suspect the ability to charge on either side makes a difference. I usually plug in on whatever side is closer to a wall and out of the way. Combined with all the other usb-c/tb benefits, i think the tradeoff is worth it.

My dog did it on several occasions.

I've moved to a 16" as well, the touchbar is fine IMO. The biggest issue before this update was just removing the escape key. I've mostly adjusted to switching caps lock to escape now because of it.

My biggest disappointment in this 13" upgrade is that it is still 13 inch. The display quality has increased over the years, but resolution/size has stayed the same since 2012.

That and the continued use of the same 720P webcam. Hopefully we get a FaceID enabled mac in 2021 where they put in a decent camera.

Yeah I noticed this too. In PC land, most ultrabooks have thinner bezels so this form factor would either have a 14” display or it would have a 13” display in the same footprint as the old 12” MacBook.

My $800 13” HP Envy for example only has about 2mm of bezels on its 4k display.

Apple is falling behind here which is strange considering how much they fetishize thinness.

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision.

As someone who’s never had a tripping accident with a magsafe charger but has had to replace multiple damaged chargers despite being careful, I welcome that change. Spending 90€ because Apple doesn’t know how (or doesn’t care) to make cables with a modicum of durability isn’t fun. With USB-C, presumably (I don’t own one of these) I could get better cables or replace them cheaper if they got frayed.

I was also excited for the possibility of being able to charge on either side, until I learned that comes at a cost: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

Yeah as someone who used MagSafe for probably a decade and then switched to a USB-C MBP (now counting 3 years), I much prefer USB-C. And I'm a really clumsy person, and have two small children running around.

I probably went through one Apple MagSafe charger a year. One of them I literally only used on my desk, and the cable fell apart in 6 months, the Apple Store guy accused me of all kinds of abuse to avoid replacing it under warranty. Even with crappy amazon marketplace noname Chinese 90W USB-C cables, I've been totally fine for 3 years now.

With USB-C you can get cheaper third party chargers with all kinds of options (including full-featured Thunderbolt docks), you can use literally any old USB power bank, you can just switch out the cable when it wears out or gets chewed on, charge on the right side of the computer [the latter also really helps with the yanking risk].

Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port.

I don't have enough experience with USB-C devices to know but micro USB ports ended up being too fragile if you have toddlers.

> Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port.

If you’ve ever had an accident with it, which I never had.

I don’t doubt that removing magsafe is a loss in the aggregate; I’ve only mentioned the alternative is likely to be better for me.

A better option still would be if they made durable magsafe cables. But they don’t, so here we are.

It's one of those things that doesn't matter to you, until it really really does. You only need one accident to make it completely worth it

If that's something you're worried about, there are USB-C magnet attachments you can buy. If it's something you don't worry about, now you have way more options for chargers and cables.

I can't find a source for this right now, but IIRC USB-C was designed such that the cable was always the weak point, so in cases of extreme stress the cable will break before the port does.

The xps is a plastic laptop with a plastic hinged small trackpad. The mbp trackpad alone is worth the extra money. I keep a laptop for 4-5 years. It’s not worth interacting thousands of times a day with an outdated subpar input device to save $10 a month.

I’ve been watching the xps closely and the internal stats are good but the “plastic laptop with a small hinged trackpad” aspect of it make it a no go for me at the price point.

Per the specs on the dell website, it's a milled aluminum chassis. Guess that could technically mean there's plastic somewhere, but they seem to be selling the fact it's not plastic.

Through some kind of engineering magic, they've been able to make it out of thin aluminum while still retaining the creaky plastic feeling Dell is known for.

The top shell and the bottom shell are thin aluminum but the rest of the laptop is plastic. The bottom assembly is a plastic body screwed into a thin aluminum shell. Unfortunately I don’t have a link but there are reviews on YouTube where people subject it to the “twist test” and the laptop body creaks and visibly twists under light manual force.

I have the latest Dell model (XPS 13 9300), and I'm left with a bit of chagrin as I probably would have looked into this new 13" MBP instead had it been available a few months ago, but overall I've been happy with my purchase. I'm not really "in" the Apple ecosystem so I'm probably a bit biased though.

A few other Dell Pros:

* 16:10 aspect ratio. The 4K touchscreen in general is fantastic, nearly borderless and really stunning in person. Dell has honed in on some great industrial design for the XPS 13 line. The laptop is incredibly compact for the feature set and screen size.

* Keyboard is fantastic. Trackpad is great, but not quite Mac level. They have been improving this considerably over the years and this latest iteration is the best yet.

* Linux support, even though I ended up not using it due to "okay" HiDPI support.

* i7, FWIW. Not sure the thermals really allow you to take advantage of full perf gains from the better processor.

* Another Dell Pro which has made me feel better about the purchase has been the free year of Next Day On-Site ProSupport. My original lid had a mark on it and no shit they scheduled a technician to come to my apartment and replace it the next day. Macs obviously have the advantage of Apple stores but in this case I was really happy with the level of CS Dell was able to provide.

Dell Cons:

* I was previously an (Arch) Linux user and have given Windows 10 a shot this time around, mostly because I don't have the time to be fiddling with config files these days. And while Windows does "just work", some things are a little janky still. From what I've heard of MacOS these days, things are not necessarily perfect there either, so maybe a toss-up. I will say Windows being so linux-friendly with WSL has made the transition much easier.

* Two ports has been not really a huge issue. I find that either I'm docked, in which case I have a whole other set of ports to use, or I'm not really plugging in more than two USB C accessories at the same time.

That new aspect ratio has me desperately wanting to upgrade.

Well that and I have xps 15 and that was fine when I took a class a year or two ago but I find it a bit bigger than I like for laying about on the couch and etc.

> 16:10 aspect ratio.....

MacBook ( Pro, Air or just MacBook ) has always been using 16:10 ratio.

16:10 on Dell is something new in the PC space that everyone is making a big fuss about it. Although I hope this change will finally run across the industry so we are back to 16:10 instead of stupid video consumption orientated 16:9 Ratio.

Funny. You pine for 16:10 everywhere and I pine for 4:3 everywhere. If software is eating the world, then why doesn't the ultimate screen ratio for development take over computers?

the 3:2 ratio on the surface laptops is pretty nice imo

You mean the ratio used on non-Pro iPads?

Interesting, I did not realize this. I also did not realize that Retina is not 4k, though I doubt this makes a huge amount of difference on the tiny screen sizes.

Old things are new again. 16:10 was the standard around 10 years ago. I still have an old Dell Core 2 Duo circa 2010 that has a resolution of 1920:1200

I think "better processor" can only fall into the Dell camp if it's confirmed that they're running it at a 25W TDP all-the-time and not the default 15W, or else Apple's chip choices will likely win because they can consume more power (but I don't know the actual model #s Apple is using).

Yeah, that's the stupid part about tech specs honestly--so many hidden caveats--I always thought it was interesting that Apple benchmarks usually outperform competitors when comparing similar hardware, usually to things like this.

Mostly annoyed now, because you are correct, it's running at 15W[0][1].

[0] https://imgur.com/a/ry5eAIy

[1] source for [0] (pg 11) https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-13-7390-2-in-1-laptop_se...

The real news is that you can get 32gb RAM and 4TB SSD in a 13-inch form factor

Sometimes its not really about the price, its about "can you?".

I'm glad Apple (and Dell) is addressing the market, alongside the improvements in the technology in their supply chain.

There have definitely been some years where I have been pretty sure something was possible but everyone was holding out for another year because a processor came out too late, or some totally antitrust violating agreement, or milking consumers, all while we just had to assume there were some quality control or battery life issue.

I am glad to know this is going to be generally available.

Have you ever purchased a Dell ? Well I just did (Dell XPS 13 2-in-1) last month and let me tell how you how horrible the driver and support has been. I really wish I could chuck this brand new 1400$ device out the Window for days of troubleshooting I've got through. I deeply regret it and wish I purchased a Surface device instead (note I'm not an Apple user)

For the price premium and judging by the quality of the drivers that Apple produces, I WOULD MUCH RATHER PAY THE PREMIUM than struggle with Dell.

I had a dell latitude at work - horrific. Replaced with an xps-13 - much better, but wouldn't recommend. At home replaced my mbp with a surface laptop, deleted windows installed linux - bliss.

I regret not purchasing a Surface device, despite the extra cost over the Dell.

Are latest Surface models working okay with Ubuntu?

Couldn't say; using arch, on non-touchscreen, all good.

What kind of driver issues did you get?

Bluetooth and Sound. Take a look at the XPS forums, there's more than a dozen posts on each topic. Dell engineers haven't pushed a fix in over a month after delivering faulty BIOS drivers.

I tried to return the POS but Dell wont take it back since I was a few days past their 30 day return policy. Let's not forget I had to deal with a minor fallout due to the pandemic, but their "customer service" department doesn't care about personal issues and difficulties customers have had during the last month and only profit and sales.

I'm never buying Dell

Did you purchase it with a credit card that offers longer return periods on your purchases?

There's a reason Dell produces stuff cheaply.

The only Dells that are comparable to the Macbook Pro line are the 7000 series Latitudes.

The build quality of the XPS line is just not up to snuff.

As a long time PC user I'd say the Razer Blade series of laptops are far closer to Macbook replacements than Dell's machines. Plus you get a nice discrete GPU to boot. I've been using my 15" blade for several years now - and they are even better now.

As a long-time Apple user who switched to Windows/Linux after Apple decided to ditch discrete GPUs and open standards for graphics, 100% this. Razer Blades are the spiritual successors to the pre-unibody Macbooks.

That said, I've had terrible luck with Razer batteries, and their only warranty replacement option involves a multi-week turnaround. It's a good thing I'm pretty handy and replacements can be had on the usual sources.

My friend had a Blade back in 2017 -- had to replace the charger 5 (!) times until he downgraded to a chromebook.

Apple has lost me as a customer for their computers. The software has been getting flakier for years, the butterfly fiasco, and their inexplicable decision to continue shipping laptops missing 15% of the keyboard. I'm on a System 76 Darter Pro now. Pop OS has been fantastic. Great specs for the money, and while it certainly isn't Mac-level hardware, it's fine. At this point, the Darter has a far superior keyboard, even comparing to the newest MBP keyboards.

I still need a Mac for my music and photo collection, and to sync my phone. But since my 2015 MBP is dying, I'm in the market for a used Mac Mini.

Apple still has me as a customer, when it comes to work solutions. I have to use windows at home for gaming, no way around it.

MacOS vs Windows 10 is a MUCH lesser difference than MacOS vs Windows 8 and below. If Apple doesn't put more focus into their computers over the next 5 years the tide may truly turn.

Also before someone mentions Linux, I really love linux. I used linux out of NEED in college but I find myself maintaining it too much for it to be worth it vs MacOS when it comes to work. I have access to linux servers for running most of my code anyway so perhaps I'm a special user.

Has to be fanless and new SSD or HDD, or you are buying trouble just to avoid setting up Plex or something.

One reason I'll recommend an Apple product over any PC to friends is the Apple Store. Aside from being able to see and play with the hardware, Apple's support experience is better than any PC maker's.

Why doesn't Dell open a store in every neighborhood that has an Apple store? They should be able to match the Apple consumer experience, but more importantly (to Dell), they could run business support operations from those stores.

I'd be a lot more likely to buy the XPS machine you mentioned if I could take it someplace when the coil whine becomes apparent.

5 years ago I destroyed my dells screen, thrre was someone driving to my place the same day and he replaced the screen on site and I could work on. Where would apple ever do this?

This is what a lot of people don't know. If you pay for premium support from Dell, it is significantly better than the support experience with Apple.

No having to check for appointment slots each day, hoping to get one two weeks out. No having to arrive at the store at the start of the day, get in the same-day queue, and hope to get seen for a 15 min checkup within 4 hours, and then lose your machine for days, if not weeks, while the repairs are done off site.

Dell premium consumer (consumer, not talking about their business support options here) support gets you next day engineer to your home, with replacement parts on hand to repair your fault in your home. Three unsuccessful repairs on the same component results in a total replacement, usually with an upgrade.

If an Apple user is having trouble setting up Time Machine, they can book a slot at the store to have somebody help them configure that. Is Dell going to send somebody to my parents home to help them with that?

Apologies, if it wasn't clear given context, I was explicitly talking about hardware support. Dell doesn't do vertical integration of hardware and software, so I doubt they'll send someone to your parents home to help them configure Windows (or Ubuntu).

That said, your parents will still be subject to having to check for appointment slots each day, hoping to get one two weeks out, or waiting in store for hours for the next slot.

They'll also be subject to lots of random bugs in Time Machine, which has become a decidedly second class citizen as far as support within macOS goes. I cannot reliably do a time machine backup over wifi anymore, and am now subject to doing it via USB only instead. This is a much bigger problem now that my USB disk is still stuck in the office, and I've been unable to get into the office for over 2 months.

> Dell doesn't do vertical integration of hardware and software

That's a good point. It's a reason why comments like the one at the top comparing a Dell to an Apple computer don't make a lot of sense. They aren't apples-to-apples comparisons.

BTW, your Apple store experience sounds terrible. We have a handful of Apple things in my home and have used in-store support probably ten times over the years and have never had the experience you describe.

It's the experience I've been facing in London, UK for the last 5 years.

I'm 'fortunate' to have those options when I'm in London. Friends and family in other parts of Europe don't have a store near them, and their only support option is to send their faulty unit away for 2-4 weeks, which often results in me doing their support for them, as I'm (or I suppose, was) often flying through and could do it as a favour.

> That's a good point. It's a reason why comments like the one at the top comparing a Dell to an Apple computer don't make a lot of sense. They aren't apples-to-apples comparisons.

Yes, and no. This is a technical forum. The software support Apple offers isn't (and probably shouldn't be) useful to the vast majority on here, as any software support you can get from an Apple store, you can get on Google significantly faster.

Within that context, I think the comparison is reasonable. We can all fix any software issues we run into (within limits, those limits vary by platform, arguably more limited in Apple land) ourselves, and those that we can't we're at the mercy of our upstream supplier anyway.

From my experiences dealing with Apple Support regarding software bugs that have come about through software updates, I have no positive things to say. They did offer me $200 worth of accessories to make up for all of my time they wasted after ~18 months of one incident, but that's a poor amount of compensation for the amount of my real time they wasted.

For what it's worth, my experience closely mirrors oarsinsync's, as far as Dell vs. Apple consumer-level hardware support goes.

The Dell tech who came to my house (next day) had people skills as good as any Apple Genius, and better tech skills to boot. He was in and out in less than 45 minutes, and I think he finished less than 24 hours after I called Dell (though that isn't promised as part of the contract).

I'm still happily in the Apple camp, mostly because I do appreciate the integrated ecosystem. However, there's simply no comparison when it comes to after-sales hardware support--Apple has a lot to learn from Dell.

I don't doubt that you've had a better Apple Store experience than some of us, but:

1. I've had poor Apple service in several cities across the US, so I think good service is the exception rather than the rule

2. Many small/medium cities only have one Apple store (which is inconvenient) and rural places have none (which is worse). As far as I know, there are no geographical restrictions, within the lower 48, on where Dell will travel for next-day at-home service.

3. Dell at-home support costs about the same as AppleCare+.

I bought a dell gaming monitor from best buy. It had like 12 stuck pixels. Dell overnighted me a replacement with a return label.

I'm a macbook fanboy but holy hell that is some GREAT service from dell.

This right here. I worked along side IT at a medium/large manufacturing company for my internship and a few times they had Dell support specialists driving out to fix hardware on the spot or give you a new one same day. For their company iPads the support was- "drive a half hour to the nearest Apple store with the shit and hope they can help you."

For years my employer paid for on-site support and when we would call for help, the technician was almost always from some third party service (Unisys?). The experience was rarely good.

Dell should bring that all in-house.

Dell has way better support than Apple. (I only have experience with it in Europe, but I think in the US would be the same)

You don't need to take anywhere. You call support and a technician will show up at your office/house and change the part on the spot. [1]

Where Apple shines is when you travel internationally. Apple offer an international warranty. If you buy a product in the EU they will fix/exchange it under warranty in the US or anywhere else in the world.

[1] https://www.dell.com/downloads/emea/services/uk/en/in_home_s...

Everybody is talking about hardware support. What about software? Will they send a technician out to show you how to attach a document to an email?

Keep in mind that is not the basic warranty service. If you buy prosupport your call will not be routed to India and you can get the in-home or in-business service. If not, you'll be having a bad time.

Only for hardware, and only if you pay extra for it.

Dell's higher tier hardware support is pretty great, but it isn't an apples-to-apples (sorry) comparison.

> Why doesn't Dell open a store in every neighborhood that has an Apple store?

How would they manage to keep any competitive pricing if they do that? They have cheap prices because they hire totally cheap support labors doing crappy support.

I haven't had a Dell in awhile, 4+ years, but I have to say, the Macs that I've had felt just as sturdy as the day I bought it. My personal MBP I got is from early 2017, and my new MBP I got for work less than a year ago feel exactly the same, besides one having stickers I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Every dell I've had starts creaking at the hinges after just a few uses. Doesn't feel as sturdy, the $600 difference is worth the longevity and integrity of the macbook hardware alone.

I'm curious if they still have the high CPU issues when charging the device on the left.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22957573

[2]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

I have an older XPS 13 with a glass screen (same design but previous generation) and one big annoyance is that every time you open the laptop, the screen will have grease marks across the centre where the keys have touched the glass while closed.

FWIW, this has been a problem on all the laptops I've ever owned, including 4 different MacBooks built between 2011-2019, and a Chromebook Pixel.

And eventually the marks don't wipe off, they remove whatever coating is on the screen. I've had this happen on pretty much every MBP I've ever owned.

I've had this happen once, and the Apple store replaced the screen no questions asked. I usually use a microfibre cloth between the screen and the keyboard though. It's a problem with all (modern) laptops from what I can tell - my Thinkpad T480s suffers from it, though my X220 does not.

Get a sheet of microfiber cloth, cut it to your screen size, and place it over the keyboard/trackpad before closing your laptop.

If you’re into that kind of thing, RadTech makes microfleece screen protectors and sleeves that are already sized appropriately for various Apple products.

https://www.radtech.com/products/screensavrz-macbook-pro-key...

Sure, or wiping it off before use with my shirt works as well! It's still a bit annoying

~~2399$~~ 2999$ (EDIT: see replies) in the US, and.... 3924$ for the same model if you buy it in Europe (3629 EUR). That's a bit outrageous.

I still have a Macbook Air 2013, and have been looking for an upgrade for like 5 years, but I was not willing to pay 4k for a laptop with a worse keyboard, a worse power plug, an OS that in 2020 still doesn't have any kind of windows tiling capabilities and quite poor virtual desktops support, a useless touchbar, no wifi6, and the worst webcam ever made.

Selling it at twice the price that in the US doesn't help. I can pay for a plane ticket, and still get it cheaper there.

Also, for a company that markets their laptops as having great displays, its quite ironic that their OS still doesn't support any kind of window tiling to use them efficiently in 2020. The display isn't micro-LED either, so it is instantaneously outdated, and well... the retina display doesn't help you see your macbook-using coworkers any better because their webcams have a resolution of 1x1 pixels.

> its quite ironic that their OS still doesn't support any kind of window tiling to use them efficiently in 2020

Luckily, the accessibility API make this quite possible to do if you're one of the people that can't work without it. (Do keep in mind that note everyone uses tiling to work "efficiently".)

> The display isn't micro-LED either, so it is instantaneously outdated

What? How many computers actually ship with microLED today?

> the retina display doesn't help you see your macbook-using coworkers any better because their webcams have a resolution of 1x1 pixels

Even with the current climate, reading text and looking at images in retina resolution is a huge part of most people's jobs. If you haven't tried a Retina Display, I suggest you do: it's quite nice.

The price $2999 in the US. There's no markup here, Apple's EU pricing just includes 20% VAT ($600) and implicit AppleCare (~$300) as required by EU consumer law.

> implicit AppleCare (~$300) as required by EU consumer law

I wouldn't say AppleCare is the same as having the extended warrenty to obey the EU consumer law. AppleCare includes a bunch of things that are outside of normal "warrenty" coverage.

I'd love for someone to chime in with specific details. I looked quickly at the French and US sites to compare. France does offer AppleCare+ for 299,00 € on a random MacBook I chose.

The US page is pretty clear that it extends a 1-year hardware warranty to 3-years and extends 90 days of technical support. In recent years they seem to focus more on accidental damage (with an additional per-incident fee).

The French website is more hand-wavy around improved hardware warranty. It also mentions the tech support, but the value seems to be the accidental damage.

The accidental damage math in the US is a tough one for me. $300 for AppleCare+ and $50 per incident goes a long way towards paying outright for a repair or buying a new laptop. The hardware warranties seem to be significantly better in Europe and historically the biggest value-add in the US. AppleCare+ just seems a lot less useful in Europe.

While this is probably true, I don't think it would be entirely fair to beat apple up for not having an EU only warranty program tuned to the minimal that is required.

Thanks for the correction, 2399$ was the price of the comparable Dell modell. The VAT and AppleCare makes sense.

Sounds like a good business opportunity. What's stopping me from buying them all up at the Apple store and selling them to overseas customers?

Ehm, customs? VAT import taxes?

As an individual, I can just by it in the US for personal use, and carry it over. But if you intent to transporting them for selling them, the story is very different.

Legally, you are required to pay VAT and import duty when buying in the US and importing it, even for personal use.

Chances are, you aren't checked. But if you are, having the original packaging or charger will be noticed by customs. They might even have data to determine country of origin from a serial number, or notice that it's a version that wasn't available when you left for the US etc. And if they ask, the burden of proof is yours to show you bought it in the EU.

How long does one need to stay in the US for that not to hold ?

I lived there for one year, and bought a lot of stuff in the US for personal use (like clothes). When I moved back to Europe, I just moved everything with me without paying any VAT.

I was worried that they would make me pay VAT from socks and underwear to laptop, phone, and everything. Asked about it, and was told that I didn't had to pay anything.

Six months.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/calculation-c... (the linked PDF).

This is not EU specific, duty is typically due on consumer good when you move them between countries if you haven't owned them long enough. It's not always enforced or enforceable of course, but it's there. See for example people buying cars on either side of the US and Canada border for use on the other side.

> What's stopping me from buying them all up at the Apple store and selling them to overseas customers?

Import duties and VAT. VAT accounts for much of the price difference, OP didn't explain which Europe they're talking about, but assuming a 20% VAT a 2999 machine costs $3598.8 to the end-user.

Means you're working with a 325.2 price difference, which doesn't even cover import duties.

So pretty much as ever, if you're round-tripping through the US, picking up an MBP there is nice. It does not however make for a business.

> So pretty much as ever, if you're round-tripping to the US, picking up an MBP there is nice.

Just keep in mind that if you stay in the US for less than 6 months, you should be paying VAT on it on your way back (see other comments). Otherwise this probably counts as tax evasion, which comes with pretty hefty fines in some EU countries.

Different keyboards for starters?

American layout actually adds value to the laptop in Europe.

You can change the layout in the apple store when buying it here, but that adds 4 weeks to the delivery time..

in Europe, I can chose whatever keyboard I want, and I would think it's the same for the US store. I've configure both MacBooks I bought in the last decade with English keyboards because it's the only layout where {} and [] don't seem like a cruel joke by language designers.

VAT

For at least 20 years it's been cheaper to buy a round trip ticket to the USA and a macbook pro than it is to just buy one in Australia.

Isn't this just because you (illegally) fail to declare it for duty purposes?

If so it wouldn't have much to do with apple, no?

Nice comparison but from personal experience I'd count the 'Killer' WiFi/BT as a giant negative on the XPS. I've had no shortage of issues with it on Linux and Windows.

Bluetooth may have hit the right spot for demand but whoever came up with the spec wasn't smart enough to get it below thousands of pages for its spec and now every manufacturer has random quality of Bluetooth drivers. Bluetooth needs s replacement but it's kind of too late.

That's really interesting. I've had a Killer wifi module in a Razer Blade Stealth running Debian 10 for about a year and I have never had any issues at all.

> Better Trackpad

After using the Dell for a month and finally sending it back, I can tell you that this was the deal breaker for me.

Dell:

* Much higher resolution screen (3840x2400 vs 2560x1600)

* Smaller and lighter (not by much though) and thinner bezels

* Better hardware support (apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows).

> apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows

I had to read this a few times. You mean third-party hardware and peripherals, right? I first read it as running Windows on Mac hardware, which Bootcamp supports. Linux usually lags a few years and often isn't solid. Battery life usually isn't as good.

Paradoxical to your peripheral experience, I often much prefer macOS' experience to Windows with things like mice and printers since they often use standard, builtin tools instead of requiring third-party drivers with terrible UIs. For most things in the past 10-15+ years they support both Mac/Windows.

One pro Windows laptops usually have over Mac is the Mac webcams have the same quality from their laptops over a decade ago. Cameras are something Apple used to brag about (both including them standard and the quality of them).

* Better Trackpad

That is an understatement.

If Apple made a 13 inch MBP without touchbar but with 4 ports I’d buy 3 because I know they’d immediately discontinue or “improve” it.

Back then, Apple hardware only differentiated in hard disk spaces for the different prices and provided equal experience to users and now their lineup is such a mess and if you want 4 ports, you have to take 512GB space which is typically way too big and no clear distinction between Air and Pro but more like Pro is Air + all sorts of random options.

Sadly, Jobs' vision is fading out.

Apple should simply re-release the pre-touchbar 2013 Macbook Pro, with USB-C ports.

"Peak MacBook Pro" was 2013 (once they fixed the screen-coating deterioration).

Let's talk 2013 vs 2015 :D

Dell XPS + Linux Mint seems like it would be an incredible development machine. I used to love OS X because everything "just worked" and you still got a real bash environment. I think Linux has caught up in terms of UX. I installed Linux Mint on my desktop recently and Cinnamon is really nice. All the tools I need are there, and I had no drivers issues whatsoever.

I see little reason to continue buying into the Apple ecosystem. I switched from iPhone to an S9+ a couple years back and plan to keep this phone for at least another few years unless it dies.

I think in general people are getting sick of the upgrade cycle. Gadgets are getting good enough that they can last multiple release cycles. I think consumer electronics companies are going to need to find a way to evolve, or they really will be running into the classic "not enough consumers" problem.

It's pretty disappointing how few ports the XPS 13 has. Only two data ports (both USB-C), but it's really only gonna one because you're gonna be using the other one for charging all the time. And I use hardware security keys for everything so I always have one plugged into my laptop, so if have zero ports free and would need to attach a USB-C hub to do anything else. At least there's wireless keyboard and mice ...

Any idea on battery life comparisons between the two? I'm not an Apple fan by any stretch, and don't have any Apple hardware at all except MacBooks, but honestly, the Mac here might be worth the extra money for the ports, build quality, and longevity. My current laptop is a 2013 top of the line MacBook Pro 15" that is still chugging along fine without any problems.

I have an xps-13, and it has been pretty unreliable. The first one I got died mysteriously, luckily I was able to exchange it for a working one. After a couple years of occasional use, the screen died (my guess is it was probably just the cable).

I still don't use it unless I need more processing power, preferring to use my 2016 Macbook 12" for everything other than compiling Rust code. The Macbook has held up great, and I even did the infamous glued in battery replacement myself.

I will probably get a Macbook pro in the next few years instead of another non-mac computer.

When I buy a Mac, I don't buy a computer.

I buy an operating system.

In my case, the Apple OS gives me exactly what I need. Apple holds all the cards, and are able to set the price. Wish it was lower, but I am glad the OS works as well as it does. The control that Apple has over both the hardware and software is key to that.

For others, Windows is exactly what they need (I see this a lot with hardware hacker stuff. It's very hard to get Apple versions of a lot of the tools I need). They do have a lot more choices, but I prefer my experience. Well worth the difference in price, for me.

> and how the new Mac Pro is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction (post Jony Ive).

Hardly, considering the lack of professional tools support outside Hollywood movie makers.

"Hollywood movie makers" and specifically VFX artists have long moved to linux/windows workstations as the performance on mac side has stagnated until the recent release of the Mac Pro but it was too little too late.

Writers and sound engineers are still firmly in the Mac camp though due to their tools being mac exclusives.

> A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it in my mind.

Agreed. Recently bought the 16 inch MBP after considering Lenovo and Dell. Prices between the machines weren't that much different (Lenovo came to 7200 minus some discount to bring it down to MBP price).

End of the day I didn't want to deal with Linux drivers (no M$ for me) and I wanted something that worked. Plus, the touchpad on an Apple device can't be beat. It's not a perfect machine, mainly Catalina issues I suspect, but worth it IMO.

The XPS13 optionally comes with Ubuntu preinstalled. Haven't had to fight drivers in a while (on my second XPS 13).

ya, but limited hardware IIRC. Considered it.

I'd say - based on my experience w/ work-issued dell's, the Apple keyboard is better. Even the butterfly...the dell keys were prone to falling off (albeit I suppose you could repair them w/o replacing the entire chassis....)

I hope the Mac screen is still better. We bought a couple of Thinkpad T490's on discount. The internals are fine, good processors, battery life, keyboard, but the trackpad sucks and the screen is noticeably still worse than my 2014 MacBook Pro...

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision.

I really dislike the mag-safe adapter on my 2015 Mac (the first Mac I've ever had). It often feels like you only have to sneeze in the direction of the connector and it pops right off.

I get the problem they're trying to solve, I too don't want to go back to the old style of connector where you could accidentally rip it out of the motherboard. I just want something a little firmer than magsafe.

I'm guessing you have MagSafe2. I only had MagSafe1 laptops and thought they were great. I might be mistaken, but I thought I had heard of Apple tweaking the magnets on different models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe#MagSafe_2

I believe the Surface have their version of MagSafe and support charging via USB-C...I wish that was the direction Apple went with.

the new macbook pro has 4 thunderbolt ports only if you go for the top-of-the-line model. anything "regular" has two ports like the dell xps 13.

You also "forgot" to mention that the xps 13 is probably easier to fix if anything goes wrong.

Regarding hardware support... what do you mean exactly? If it's warranty, dell is probably as good as apple.

You forgot that the Dell XPS 13 also has a touch screen... and there is a 2-1 model with a tablet mode and an (awful) pen.

Given my experience with non MS Surface touch screens, I'm not really sure if I consider that a strong pro--if I were writing the sales pitch for the laptop yeah, it's a pro, but in terms of day to day use, I'm not sure how much I'm looking for a touchscreen on a laptop.

Regardless though, the gesture support on MacOS touch-pads would probably cancel it out as anything I'd probably do with the touchscreen frequently could be supported through a gesture.

Touch screens are useful as a shortcut to mouse or gesture movements.

Depending on what your needs are, the TouchID and T2 might be pros (or cons). Same thing with macOS, but that might simply be a matter of 'need it' and 'do not need it' and isn't much of a gradient. If you need macOS, you'll buy a Mac and the whole comparison matters a whole lot less.

I’m pretty sure Apple is using the latest 4-core 10th Gen CPUs. Unless the Dell is using a 6 core chip, it is unlikely that their CPU is better.

The top end is the Core i7-1068NG7 and the i5 is the Core i5-1038NG7. They are both 28W parts with the highest end integrated GPU that Intel sells.

> Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side

Maybe, but I think the price gap used to be a lot longer too?

(As in, Apple's dragged it up (or perhaps arguably dragged up build quality or whatever that's impacted price) not vice versa.)

The other important differentiator is the OS. I can’t (reliably) get MacOS on a Dell laptop so my choice is clear: either keep using the MBP I have or upgrade. At this point I don’t want to go back and try re-learning Windows.

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision.

With any luck the mag-safe connector will be back in a couple of years. Of course Apple will call it "new".

If you care about it, just buy a magnetic USB-C dongle: https://www.amazon.com/usb-c-magsafe/s?k=usb+c+magsafe

Returning to magsafe would be a downgrade when you can just magsafe-ify any of the ports yourself with a cheap adapter.

Not an entirely bad idea, however I t should be obvious that having an adapter hanging out the side of ya laptop is less than ideal.

Well, I think it's a superior solution to having a special magsafe port when you can have more USB-C ports with the option to add magsafe to them.

The Apple list is shorter because you ignored nearly all of the differentiating features enabled by the Apple ecosystem. You also ignored many of the non-obvious details of the Mac hardware.

I did a similar comparison a few years ago and had a very similar list and came to the same conclusion (about $500 more for the Apple, but it was probably worth it in known reliability and resale). The only thing I would have added was that Apple's camera quality hasn't improved in 10+ years, which sucks if you're working remote (hopefully now everyone notices this).

A lot of the hardware things I liked about Mac laptops got stripped off (MagSafe, charging indicator, SD card slot).

I imagine everything else is up to personal workflow. My wife was looking at another Mac laptop because she wanted to transition GarageBand projects from her iPad. Since, in practice, the files often crash when doing this and she has to export/import that workflow is useless and she's looking at a Windows laptop.

I'd be curious what kind of things you would put on your list.

I’ll not that I use windows, Mac, and Linux (arch and Ubuntu) all equally effectively. In no particular order, here are some things about macs that are often missed:

FaceTime, iPhone, sms/iMessage integration that works even when phone is not nearby.

T2 chip/Secure Enclave.

Easier to use full disk encryption.

Note’s built in capability to encrypt specific notes with a private, unrecoverable password.

Faster system software updates.

Most apps shipping as DMG rather than installer packages, which allows me to install them without granting admin rights.

Family members who have macs ask me for help far less than those with windows.

The trackpad is vastly superior. I actually prefer thinkpad-style trackpoints, but thinkpads aren’t what they used to be. The Mac trackpad feels good to touch, the taptic full-pad pseudo-clicking is superior to physical button presses, and the multi-pressure level support is occasionally useful. The gestures work well and feel natural.

Find my Mac/iPod/iPhone is implemented in a privacy preserving method. It’s also super useful to be able to simply say to my laptop “hey Siri, where is my phone?” to have it trigger the audio beacon.

The speakers on the new 16” MBP are excellent. I use my headphones much less now.

I love the look of Macbook monitors more than most pc laptop monitors. Of course, some pc laptops have comparable or exactly the same panel, but the price goes up pretty fast.

Photos is an imperfect replacement for Picasa (RIP). However it has some features my family loves, like automatically figuring out groups of related events and generating movies from photos of family trips, then surprising me with a phone notification.

Many of the built in apps feature end-to-end encryption.

I feel like windows 10 is always spying on me. I have to spend hours configuring a fresh windows install to turn off all the garbage. Not signing into a Microsoft account with windows 10 causes all kinds of limitations, like not being able use fingerprint readers.

The microphone array on the new MBP works very well such a shame it wasn’t paired with a better camera.

Access to a terminal. I spend most of my time in vim. WSL just isn’t comparable (yet) in terms of integration and ease of use.

There are also things that are much worse about macs, but that aren’t dealbreakers for me:

Horrible software quality, going back decades, in ways that really matter. The only times I’ve ever lost data due to software is when OSX corrupted a drive. Backups are vital, and they must be stored on non-Apple devices/services. This is a hidden cost no one ever talks about, even though the internet is rife with Mac/time machine data loss anecdotes.

Extremely uncomfortable sharp edges.

Safari is so close to being useful, but falls short. I configure it to wipe out everything on close, and use it as a sort of super-private-mode browser.

QuickTime is garbage.

Application file associations are super finicky.

There is no built in method to set the screen to native resolution, needlessly inflicting blurry screens.

Apple might blow it again with the hardware for years, meaning no upgrade path.

The machines are under-ventilated, under-powered, under-rammed.

Lack of games support.

Horrible battery life if you do anything intensive. Factorio burns through a full battery in about 90 minutes.

I wish they would make a “kids edition” laptop that is cheaper, made of plastic for dent-resistance, and can be locked down in the same way as iOS.

I wish it had a built in hyper visor or allowed me to run apps in something like sandboxie.

I wish I could change the the window manager (I happily used Arch for years and fell in love with the tiling window manager spectrwm).

The lack of a 4K screen on the MBP makes me sad. I had a thinkpad p1 with a 4K screen and it was stunning (but a power hog).

Depends on use cases. We switch between the xps-13 and starting now this at work.

We use 0 apple specific apps. We write python and Vue.js using pycharm.

So from a business use case, do you want windows, Linux, or Mac hot keys? Python and everything runs everywhere.

(Biggest problem is Windows Home doesn’t run Docker as well, but it can be worked around)

I would add form factor in the comparison. Dell XPS 13 is smaller.

This comparison is at the higher end, but I am curious about the $1799 version of the Macbook Pro - with the new 10th Gen processors, 16GB of RAM, and 512GB storage.

I think that the MBP actually has the better CPU and the better thermals (the latest XPS is not that great in this regard).

Other than that, I completely agree

I had a XPS13 a couple of years ago and the USB-C port was not Thunderbolt 3. The new 13” MBP has four TB3 ports which is a pretty big deal to me.

>I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly keys.

I still dont like the new Magic Keyboard travel. It feels to me exactly the same as butterfly. The whole typing experience just sucks. But given a lot of people ( DHH ) are saying it feels the same as Magic Keyboard on the iMac ( Which I will probably never understand ), the likelihood of that ever coming back to the Mac is near Zero. May be even Magic Keyboard on iMac will one day be the same as well.

I wonder if someone will make a plastic keyboard cover that adds back the few mm key travel, along with "artificial" buttons to cover up the Touch Bar.

In case anyone ask why not the MacBook Air, it is because the CPU run up to 90C with passive cooling. I dont know how long will the product last under medium load usage.

Apple Pros:

* macOS

Debatable.

Personally this is a con.

Pro is the quality of third party apps. OS is irrelevant as long as the hardware works.

>* Better hardware support

What are you basing that on?

>IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by developers, it's not too bad a couple years in

The touch bar still sucks, but eventually all design decisions Apple makes are justified by users.

They literally just changed the keyboard design because users hated it.

They changed it because on 50% of all machines (stats from our office) the keyboard went bad within a year, causing massive warranty cost for Apple.