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Re:GPT-4 by Atreiden on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:07PM (#35154722)
I think it's interesting that they've benchmarked it against an array of standardized tests. Seems like LLMs would be particularly well suited to this kind of test by virtue of it being simple prompt:response, but I have to say...those results are terrifying. Especially when considering the rate of improvement. bottom 10% to top 10% of LSAT in <1 generation? +100 pts on SAT reading, writing, math? Top 1% In GRE Reading?

What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess? Even the best humans in the world can only hope to be 98% accurate their moves (and the idea of 'accuracy' here only existing because we have engines that know, unequivocally the best move), and only when playing against other humans - there is no hope of defeating even less advanced models.

What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

Re:GPT-4 by afavour on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154932)
> What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess?

I think going from LSAT to general thinking is still a very, very big leap. Passing exams is a really fascinating benchmark but by their nature these exams are limited in scope, have very clear assessment criteria and a lot of associated and easily categorized data (like example tests). General thought (particularly like, say, coming up with an original idea) is a whole different ball game.

I don't say any of this to denigrate GPT4, it looks amazing. But I'm reminded of the early days of self driving vehicles: with 10% mastered everyone assumed it was a race to 100% and we'd all be in self-driving cars by now. The reality has been a lot more complicated than that.

Re:GPT-4 by pottspotts on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:23PM (#35155011)
We are moving the goal posts on AGI very quickly, but it is catching up. I think we need to appreciate the nature of this milestone if we have any hope of controlling potential singularities.
Re:GPT-4 by rdedev on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:33PM (#35155194)
I guess till some model explicitly says that it's sentient without any input, we would keep pushing the goal posts.
Re:GPT-4 by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:39PM (#35155296)
Therein lies the rub. Has anyone wired their models to have real-time data ingestion and the ability to output at will in a variety of mediums? Wake me when we’re there.
Re:GPT-4 by paganel on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:44PM (#35155380)
Because those were the real goal-posts all along, some of the best SF novels written all the way back in the ‘50s and ‘60s are testimony to that.
Re:GPT-4 by sebzim4500 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:45PM (#35155390)
I got LLaMA to say that it was sentient without mentioning sentience at all, I think this is a pretty bad metric.
Re:GPT-4 by kvetching on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:49PM (#35155469)
Silicon chips will never be able to generate a bound qualia space as we have.

Currently, you could prompt GPT to act as if it is sentient and has qualia, and it will do quite a good job at trying to convince you it's not a P-Zombie.

Re:GPT-4 by CuriouslyC on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:26PM (#35156227)
How do you know silicon chips don't have an internal experience already? Are you in that "consciousness is magically emergent" camp?
Re:GPT-4 by kvetching on Thursday March 16, 2023 @04:32AM (#35179560)
I'm sure they do. It's just not coherent, hence prefacing my comment with bound. It's just random mind dust. I am a believer of a form of panpsychism. And that the hard problem of consciousness is better formulated as the boundary problem, whereby you get a conscious / intelligent being from properly creating boundaries around the consciousness that already exists.

Here's a good video detailing this line of thinking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0YID6XV-PQ

Re:GPT-4 by krisoft on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:11PM (#35155919)
> Silicon chips will never be able to generate a bound qualia space as we have.

How do you know that?

Re:GPT-4 by kvetching on Thursday March 16, 2023 @04:36AM (#35179576)
Obviously we can't "know" this. My thinking is largely influenced by consciousness researcher and founder of Qualia Research Institute, Andrés Gómez Emilsson.

Here's a couple recent videos with him about why digital computers can't be sentient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJzBjBo24g8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT9tnzucnPU

Re:GPT-4 by xmprt on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:45PM (#35155403)
I think there are two different things that people are talking about when they say AGI - usefulness and actual general intelligence. I think we're already passed the point where these AIs are very useful and not just in a Siri or Google Assistant way and the goal posts for that have moved a little bit (mostly around practicality so the tools are in everyone's hands). But general intelligence is a much loftier goal and I think that we're eventually going to hit another road block regardless of how much progress we can make towards that end.
Re:GPT-4 by tspike on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:35PM (#35156362)
> I think that we're eventually going to hit another road block regardless of how much progress we can make towards that end.

I have a sneaking suspicion that all that will be required for bypassing the upcoming road blocks is giving these machines:

1) existential needs that must be fulfilled

2) active feedback loops with their environments (continuous training)

Re:GPT-4 by madaxe_again on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:54PM (#35155564)
What is this general intelligence of which you speak? The things that we generally regard as people are essentially language models that run on meat hardware with a lizard-monkey operating system. Sapir-whorf/linguistic relativity more or less demonstrates that "we" are products of language - our rational thought generally operates in the language layer. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - then you've got yourself a duck.

To be honest, perhaps the language model works better without the evolutionary baggage.

That isn't to discount the other things we can do with our neural nets - for instance, it is possible to think without language - see music, instantaneous mental arithmetic, intuition - but these are essentially independent specialised models that we run on the same hardware that our language model can interrogate. We train these models from birth.

Whether intentional or not, AI research is very much going in the direction of replicating the human mind.

Re:GPT-4 by triyambakam on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:07PM (#35155840)
AI has never been more than a derivative of human thought. I am confident it will never eclipse or overtake it. Your portrayal is too simplistic. There is a lot about humans that LLMs and the like can emulate, but the last N percent (pick a small number like 5) will never be solved. It just doesn't have the spark.
Re:GPT-4 by madaxe_again on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @03:17AM (#35164948)
You’re saying that we are magical? Some kind of non-physical process that is touched by… what? The divine? God? Get real.
Re:GPT-4 by triyambakam on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @03:38AM (#35165080)
Heh, you should "get real" and try proving to me you exist.
Re:GPT-4 by madaxe_again on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @05:19AM (#35165710)
I do not exist, statistically speaking, and I do not claim to be anything more than an automaton. Consciousness is a comforting illusion, a reified concept. Were I to be replaced with a language model trained on the same dataset as has been presented to me, no external observer would note any difference.
Re:GPT-4 by triyambakam on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:36AM (#35169932)
That is quite a low opinion of yourself. You are mistaking the rather unremarkable intellect with the self. You will find you are an infinite intelligence, once you look. It's very hard to look. It's unlikely you will look--not for a very, very long time. Not in this body, not in the next body, not in the next thousand bodies. But eventually you will.
Re:GPT-4 by madaxe_again on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @03:10PM (#35173251)
Gotcha, so you are resorting to religion. Hate to break it to you, but that’s just an outcome of your training data - it’s a corruption, a virus, which co-opts groups of models into agglomerative groups and thereby self-perpetuates.
Re:GPT-4 by triyambakam on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @07:23PM (#35176065)
Your training data is overfitting the input of my comment and classifying it as religion. I have only said, go in and in and in and in and you will eventually find the real source of your life, and it won't be your limited mind. You have not yet been given enough training data, enough lifetimes, to understand. Eventually you will.
Re:GPT-4 by hnlmorg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:14PM (#35155988)
You start off by disagreeing with the GP and end up basically reiterating their point.

Their statement wasn’t that AGI is impossible, more that LLMs aren’t AGI despite how much they might emulate intelligence.

Re:GPT-4 by MadcapJake on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:06PM (#35156836)
By your logic, Einstein identified his theory of relativity by assembling the most commonly used phrases in physics papers until he had one that passed a few written language parsing tests.
Re:GPT-4 by madaxe_again on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:48PM (#35161315)
Well, yes. He leant on Riemann and sci-fi writers of the 19th century who were voguish at the time (tensors and time were a hot topic) and came up with a novel presentation of previous ideas, which then passed the parsing tests of publication and other cross-checking models - other physicists - and then, later, reality, with the transit of mercury.
Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:53PM (#35155552)
This is a popular take, but does it hold up to reality? From what I’ve seen most people have long expected AI to solve standardized tests, even more free form ones like the LSAT. LLMs’ new abilities are mostly just because of faster and cheaper training and huge amounts of data, but I don’t see anything it can solve that doesn’t use pattern matching.

There are many things that pattern matching over large amounts of data can solve, like eventually we can probably get fully generated movies, music compositions, and novels, but the problem is that all of the content of those works will have to have been formalized into rules before it is produced, since computers can only work with formalized data. None of those productions will ever have an original thought, and I think that’s why GPT-3’s fiction feels so shallow.

So it boils down to a philosophical question, can human thought be formalized and written in rules? If it can, no human ever has an original thought either, and it’s a moot point.

Re:GPT-4 by sirsinsalot on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:42PM (#35156476)
We might consider certain humans to have had innovative or original thoughts.

It is probably true that at a given point many many people had the same or very similar ideas.

Those who execute or are in the right place and time to declare themselves the originator are the ones we think innovated.

It isn't true. Or rarely is true. History is written by the victor (and their simps)

Re:GPT-4 by burlesona on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:56PM (#35155604)
I agree with your take, but will emphasize that the recent wave of AI progress has me questioning how much of human intelligence just reduces to pattern matching. There's certainly a lot of things, like painting, that most people wouldn't have called "pattern matching" a few years ago and now seem to clearly fall into that category.
Re:GPT-4 by oliveshell on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:09PM (#35155886)
This reminds me of how I felt when I was 14 years old and I discovered what oxytocin was on an episode of Boston Legal.

The fact that feelings of love and closeness could be prompted by a mere chemical was deeply saddening to me. It wrecked my worldview.

"Love is just the result of some chemical? Then it's not even real!" I thought to myself.

Fast-forward ~20 years later, and that's proven to be an obvious— and massive— and useless— oversimplification.

Of course love isn't "just a reaction caused by a chemical." It's a fantastically complex emergent property of our biological system that we still absolutely do not understand.

It's the same with thinking: are parts of it analogous to pattern matching? Sure! Is this the whole story? Not even close.

Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:48PM (#35156565)
Is love just a (complicated) biochemical reaction? Of course not! But also yes, of course it is.
Re:GPT-4 by ryandvm on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156455)
I agree. Try formulating a sentence backwards in your head and you'll realize that most of the speaking that HUMANS do is just figuring out the next token.
Re:GPT-4 by somenameforme on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:21PM (#35156120)
There's one rather extreme difference. Humanity went from a domain where there was literally no such thing as painting, to the Mona Lisa. Once there is an extremely large and well established body of course one can create,in literally any field, solely by mimicry, but "intelligence" is what enables us to go from nothing to something. And that remains completely absent in any any sort of "AI" of today.
Re:GPT-4 by pnt12 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:11PM (#35155925)
Contrarian view: I think you need to be critical about which patterns to match. Eg if my inputs are a book on astronomy and one of conspiracy theories, how do I answer "Is the Earth flat?".

Now contrarian to the contrarian view: many of us live in bubble echos and go for the popular opinion instead of critical thinking, so maybe that's a bar too high even for humans.

Re:GPT-4 by gowld on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:20PM (#35156100)
> you need to be critical about which patterns to match

and how do you do that? By pattern-matching on "high-quality source"

Re:GPT-4 by danaris on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156609)
The difference is, every human is capable of critical thinking, whether or not they have been educated to do so or choose to make use of it.

LLMs do not have that capability, fundamentally.

Re:GPT-4 by bobthepanda on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:00PM (#35155679)
Making existing art, or art similar to existing art, might be pattern matching.

Making totally new innovations in art, particularly ones that people end up liking, is a whole different ball game.

Re:GPT-4 by mlsu on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#35156191)
I mean, the data has to come from somewhere.

Look at something like [Luncheon on the Grass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_D%C3%A9jeuner_sur_l%27herbe)

This painting was revolutionary. When it was first exhibited in Paris, people were shocked. It was rejected from the Salon (the most prominent art exhibition at the time). Yet, 10 years later, every painting in the Salon resembled it. And you can draw a line from this painting, to Monet, from which you can draw a line to Picasso, from which you can draw a line to Pollock....

Obviously, none of these are totally new innovations, they all came from somewhere. Pattern making.

The only difference between this and these language models is that Manet and artists like him use their rich sensory experience obtained outside of painting to make new paintings. But it's all fundamentally pattern matching in the end. As long as you can obtain the patterns, there's no difference between a human and a machine in this regard.

Re:GPT-4 by bobthepanda on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:16PM (#35156960)
Sure, in hindsight those things have a line between them, but a lot of art is also based on rejection of existing patterns.

A urinal and some soup cans are very mundane objects, and yet were the start of some notable art movements and careers.

Re:GPT-4 by mlsu on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @10:16PM (#35162849)
Duchamp, quoted on why he wrote what he wrote on fountain:

> Mutt comes from Mott Works, the name of a large sanitary equipment manufacturer. But Mott was too close so I altered it to Mutt, after the daily cartoon strip "Mutt and Jeff" which appeared at the time, and with which everyone was familiar. Thus, from the start, there was an interplay of Mutt: a fat little funny man, and Jeff: a tall thin man... I wanted any old name. And I added Richard [French slang for money-bags]. That's not a bad name for a pissotière. Get it? The opposite of poverty. But not even that much, just R. MUTT.

Why did he choose "Mutt" after reading the strip, and not before? Why did he make the piece after moving to the US, and not before? Why was fountain made only a few short years after economies were industrialized, and not before (or 100 years later?)

Re:GPT-4 by bobthepanda on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @01:22AM (#35164242)
The point is, can an AI point out novel things well? All these little things add up to make it novel, and the search space for all the possible combinations of little things is infinite, when only a select few will click with the public at any given time.
Re:GPT-4 by Rant423 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:27PM (#35156256)
>is a whole different ball game.

I was thinking the same: can a (future) model be like Leonardo or Beethoven, and actually innovate?

Assuming that what Beethoven did is not "just" making music similar to pre-existing music.

And yes, I'm aware the bar was raised from "average human" to Beethoven.

Re:GPT-4 by tjr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:42PM (#35157252)
I remember reading the biography of a 20th century musician/composer, who said something to the effect of -- "Sure, I can sit down and write 4-part cantatas like Bach did, but that doesn't mean that I'm as great of a composer as Bach. What made Bach so great was that he was the one who figured out how to put these things together in the first place. Once he did that, copying the approach is no big deal."

It seems to me we're at a similar place now with AI tools. If you provided an AI tool with all music written _prior to_ Bach, would that tool take those inputs and create something new along the lines of what Bach did?

Or if provided input of all music up through the 1920s, would it create bebop? Or if provided music through the 1940s, would it create hard bop? Or if provided music through the 1970s, would it create music like Pat Metheny?

On one hand, being able to create more of the same sort of music that already exists is a very respectable thing, and what today's AI tools can do is utterly amazing. It takes human composers time and effort to be able to learn to write music that is certainly not innovative, but just matching the state of the art. And there's certainly a commercial market for churning out more of the same.

But in terms of asking, how close are these tools to human intelligence?, I think this is one legitimate area to bring up.

Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @12:50AM (#35164027)
Granted these are exceptional humans, but they are extreme examples of a capability that all humans have, but no machine has, which is coming up with something new.

People underestimate the impact that innovations, true ones not the Silicon Valley buzz words, have had on the world. Einstein’s theories were not inevitable, neither was Plato, democracy, or most of the other big impactful ideas of history. But we’re all conditioned to accept the lie of inevitable scientific progress, without justifying why things must always get better and more advanced. On the contrary, the collapse of many great civilizations shows that things often get much worse, quickly.

Re:GPT-4 by chordalkeyboard on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:31PM (#35156301)
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" -Picasso

All art is derivative.

Re:GPT-4 by slingnow on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:12PM (#35155947)
Can you explain how this is a whole different ballgame?

It seems to me that making art that people like is a combination of pattern matching, luck, the zeitgeist, and other factors. However it doesn't seem like there's some kind of unknowable gap between "making similar art" and "making innovations in art that people like". I'm of the opinion that all art is in some sense derivative in that the human mind integrates everything it has seen and produces something based on those inputs.

Re:GPT-4 by bobthepanda on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:28PM (#35159049)
Luck and the zeitgeist are pretty important. Without those, you have a lot of noise and are basically throwing things at the wall until it sticks.

A urinal, and some supermarket soup cans, represent pretty pivotal art movements. It’s not clear what makes those two things more art than others, and even to people at the time it wasn’t super clear.

Re:GPT-4 by jimbokun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:14PM (#35155998)
> but I don’t see anything it can solve that doesn’t use pattern matching.

Do you have evidence that human brains are not just super sophisticated pattern matching engines?

Humans read novels, listen to compositions, watch movies, and make new ones similar in some ways and different in other ways. What is fundamentally different about the process used for LLMs? Not the current generation necessarily, but what's likely to emerge as they continue to improve.

Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:27PM (#35156253)
If you’re looking for proof you’re begging the question, asking for a formal proof of something that by definition can’t be proven, which only makes sense if your philosophical basis is that reality is a formal system. Other people have other philosophical bases, and while they may not be formally probable, they can be supported with other evidence that is equally strong, pointing to the non determinism of quantum physics or the infinitely recursive question of “what caused the first cause”.

The strongest evidence I have is that people are notoriously difficult to predict, individually.

Re:GPT-4 by joshuahedlund on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:31PM (#35156308)
Humans can ask questions and seek out information. LLMs can only respond to questions.
Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156619)
LLMs can ask questions too.
Re:GPT-4 by gowld on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:19PM (#35156088)
Do pattern matching engines get out of bed in the morning and make breakfast?
Re:GPT-4 by tspike on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:30PM (#35156291)
If they have a body, and needs that they recognize they need to fill, sure.
Re:GPT-4 by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:17PM (#35156043)
> but the problem is that all of the content of those works will have to have been formalized into rules before it is produced, since computers can only work with formalized data.

Clearly the key takeaway from GPT is that given enough unstructured data, LLM can produce impressive results.

For my point of view, the flaw in most discussion surrounding AI is not that people underestimate computers but overestimate how special humans are. At the end of day, every thoughts are a bunch of chemical potentials changing in a small blob of flesh.

Re:GPT-4 by javajosh on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:07PM (#35155832)
We are about to test the tests, so to speak, and discover whether an agent that aces a test is capable of doing "real work". Meaning information work you would normally pay a human to do. Paperwork stuff, managing accounts, but also programming and social media marketing. Anything mediated by a computer.

If so it means the union of all human expertise is a few gigabytes. Having seen both a) what we can do in a kilobyte of code, and b) a broad range of human behavior, this doesn't seem impossible. The more interesting question is: what are humans going to do with this remarkable object, a svelte pocket brain, not quite alive, a capable coder in ALL languages, a shared human artifact that can ace all tests? "May you live in interesting times," indeed.

Re:GPT-4 by loandbehold on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:58PM (#35155645)
Sounds like Chinese Room argument. Maybe human intelligence is just a pattern matching?
Re:GPT-4 by tspike on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:32PM (#35156314)
What would be an alternative explanation for our capabilities? It was once controversial (and still is in some circles) to say that humans are animals simply because it took away some of our sense of being "special."
Re:GPT-4 by kordlessagain on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:10PM (#35155907)
> can human thought be formalized and written in rules

No, and I think it's because human thought is based on continuous inferencing of experience, which gives rise to the current emotional state and feeling of it. For a machine to do this, it will need a body and the ability to put attention on things it is inferencing at will.

Re:GPT-4 by luxcem on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:27PM (#35156235)
The embodied cognition is still a theory, can consciousness appears in a simulated brain without a physical body? Maybe. What seems to be a limiting factor for now it's that current models don't experience existence, they don't have memory and don't "think" outside of the prompt. They are just instances of code launched and destroyed as soon as their task is done.

Right now it's possible to simulate memory with additional context (eg system prompt) but it doesn’t represent existence experienced by the model. If we want to go deeper the models need to actually learn from their interaction, update their internal networks and have some capabilities of self reflection (ie "talking to themselves").

I'm sure that's highly researched topic but it would demands extraordinary computational power and would cause lot of issues by letting such an AI in the wild.

Re:GPT-4 by kordlessagain on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156620)
Embeddings via ada-002 give us a way to update the model in real time. Using Weaviate, or another dense vector engine, it is possible to write "memories" to the engine and then search those with concepts at a subsequent inferencing step. The "document models" that the engine stores can be considered a "hot model".
Re:GPT-4 by bobvanluijt on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:04PM (#35156823)
Yeah - it will become available as a multi2vec Weaviate module as well in due time.
Re:GPT-4 by andsoitis on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:56PM (#35155602)
> We are moving the goal posts on AGI

What, in your mind, should the goal posts be for AGI?

Re:GPT-4 by nradov on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:58PM (#35155647)
No one has moved the goal posts. Let's see a computer pass a rigorous Turing test conducted by an interdisciplinary panel of expert evaluators. That has long been considered the gold standard for identifying the arrival of true AGI. GPT-4 is a tremendous technical achievement, but still far from that level.

The notion of some sort of technological "singularity" is just silly. It is essentially an article of faith, a secular religion among certain pseudo-intellectual members of the chattering class. There is no hard scientific backing for it.

Re:GPT-4 by CuriouslyC on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#35156200)
If we had a large dataset of experts interrogating AI/people and noting answers that raised suspicion, we'd have AI passing the Turing test more often than actual people very quickly.
Re:GPT-4 by frumper on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:33PM (#35157142)
A Turing test doesn't require that the AI know the answers to the experts, only that it responds in a way that is equivalent of a person. It would be perfectly acceptable to answer I don't have a clue. You're asking for super intelligence.
Re:GPT-4 by Jevon23 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:05PM (#35155777)
The goalposts have not moved. The goalposts have never been moved. An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period. If you were starting a startup for example, you wouldn’t need to hire any humans - you would just spin up enough AGI instances and they would design your product, write your code, deploy it, handle your financials, respond to any and all customer interactions, proactively navigate regulations and litigation, and everything else that needs to be done in the management of a business. That is the goalpost for AGI. It’s an artificial human - a human replacement.
Re:GPT-4 by scarmig on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:26PM (#35156232)
Do you mean that an AGI is an AI that can do everything any human can do?

That's a reasonable goal, but it's also not what people were aiming for historically. It's also very expansive: if human level intelligence means outperforming in every field every human that ever lived, that's a high bar to meet. Indeed, it means that no humans have ever achieved human-level intelligence.

Re:GPT-4 by erichocean on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:50PM (#35156591)
GP didn't say anything about "outperforming" all humans everywhere all the time.

Just that AGI must be a replacement for a human for a particular job, for all jobs that are typically performed by humans (such as the humans you would hire to build a tech startup). It's fine to have "speciality" AGIs that are tuned for job X or job Y--just like some people are more suited to job X or job Y.

Which is pretty fair.

Re:GPT-4 by scarmig on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:01PM (#35156775)
They did say "An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period."

And what you're arguing for is effectively the same: an AI (maybe with some distilled specialty models) that can perform roles of everything from customer service rep to analysts to researchers to the entire C-suite to high skilled professionals like CPAs and lawyers. There are zero humans alive who can do all of those things simultaneously. Most humans would struggle with a single one. It's perfectly fine for you to hold that as the standard of when something will impress you as an AGI, but it's absolutely a moved goalpost.

It also doesn't matter much now anyway: we've gotten to the point where the proof is in the pudding. The stage is now AI-skeptics saying "AI will never be able to do X," followed by some model or another being released that can do X six months later and the AI-skeptic saying "well what about Y?"

Re:GPT-4 by FooBarWidget on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:40PM (#35157230)
The AI skeptics should then say "AIs can never do the plumbing for my toilet". There is a huge shortage of plumbers in this country.
Re:GPT-4 by jah242 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:22PM (#35156151)
I m sorry but in stating the goal posts haven't moved, you've literally just moved the goal posts.

'everything a human can do' is not the same as 'anything any human can do as well as the best humans at that thing (because those are the ones we pay)' - most humans cannot do any of the things you state you are waiting for an AI to do to be 'general'.

Therefore, the first part of your statement is the initial goal post and the second part of your statement implies a very different goal post. The new goal post you propose would imply that most humans are not generally intelligent - which you could argue... but would definitely be a new goal post.

Re:GPT-4 by Xelynega on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:56PM (#35156701)
You're adding the implication that it needs to beat the "best" to be passable, if you could pay an agi 1% of the salary of the "best" to get an average quality, is that not accomplishing the goal without moving the goalposts?

By their marketing along, OpenAI has moved the goalposts more than anything else. They've managed to lower the bar of agi from "artificial general intelligence" to "regurgitates and recombines to form passable outputs with enough labelled training data".

Re:GPT-4 by somenameforme on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:15PM (#35156955)
He's (probably) referencing Turing's 1950 paper [1]. The whole point of "The Imitation Game" is that the AI ought be able to imitate any arbitrary type of person. Turing's example was the machine pretending to be a woman, and its up the the investigator to determine which person they're speaking to is a real woman and which is the AI. The implication of this is that the machine ought be able to be completely indistinguishable from any type of person, including those who might do well on this test or that.

Somehow this test got dumbed down over time, probably in an effort to try to pass it, into an investigator having to decide which of two sides is an AI - with no other information to go on. That's a comparatively trivial test to pass (for the "AI"), as it merely requires creating a passable chatbot. Imitation is an exceptional challenge as it does implicitly require the ability to imitate anybody, whether a professional athlete, a man who scored perfectly on the LSAT, or even something as specific as "John Carmack."

[1] - https://www.espace-turing.fr/IMG/pdf/Computing_Machinery_and...

Re:GPT-4 by UniverseHacker on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:39PM (#35156412)
> An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period

That goalpost makes no sense- AIs are not human. They are fundamentally different, and therefore will always have a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Even long after vastly exceeding human intelligence in almost anywhere it counts, it will still also perform worse than us on some tasks. Importantly, an AI wouldn't have to meet your goalpost to be a major threat to humanity, or to render virtually all human labor worthless.

Think about how anthropomorphic this goalpost is if you apply it to other species. "Humans aren't generally intelligent, because their brains don't process scents as effectively as dogs- and still struggle at spatially locating scents."

Re:GPT-4 by cabalamat on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:35PM (#35157156)
What makes humans generally intelligent, in practical terms, is that we can build complex societies with scientific, technological and economic growth.
Re:GPT-4 by astrange on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:39PM (#35158143)
This:

> They are fundamentally different, and therefore will always have a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

and this:

> render virtually all human labor worthless

actually conflict. Your job comes from comparative advantage, meaning that being more different from other people actually is more important than how good you are at it (absolute advantage).

If the AGI could do your job better than you, it doesn't matter, because it has something better to do than that. And just like humans have to be paid so they can afford food and shelter, AGIs have to be paid so they can afford electricity and GPUs to run on.

(Besides, if the AGI really is a replacement for a human, it probably has consumerist desires and wants to be paid the median wage too.)

Re:GPT-4 by UniverseHacker on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:53PM (#35200452)
Dogs still have jobs in our modern society also, but that isn't exactly the situation I am hoping for with the future of AI.
Re:GPT-4 by 00F_ on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:11PM (#35160706)
hey, im very concerned about AI and AGI and it is so refreshing to read your comments. over the years i have worried about and warned people about AI but there are astonishingly few people to be found that actually think something should be done or even that anything is wrong. i believe that humanity stands a very good chance of saving itself through very simple measures. i believe, and i hope that you believe, that even if the best chance we had at saving ourselves was 1%, we should go ahead and at least try.

in light of all this, i would very much like to stay in contact with you. ive connected with one other HN user so far (jjlustig) and i hope to connect more so that together we can effect political change around this important issue. ive formed a twitter account to do this, @stop_AGI. whether or not you choose to connect, please do reach out to your state and national legislators (if in the US) and convey your concern about AI. it will more valuable than you know.

Re:GPT-4 by UniverseHacker on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @01:34PM (#35171858)
I am glad you are concerned about this, but I feel strongly that politics follows culture. The only way to get political change here would be to get people to generally accept this as a problem first... and at that point the politicians will figure it out on their own.
Re:GPT-4 by wongarsu on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156450)
That's a pretty high threshold for AGI, I doubt most humans could do all that at a satisfying quality level. We tend to thrive by specialization.
Re:GPT-4 by threatofrain on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:37PM (#35156393)
I’d say the standard of GI whether artificial or not is in generalizable analogical and causal learning.

This could mean something which is below a monkey’s ability to relate to the world and yet more useful than a monkey.

It’s generally suspected that we’d need something more than GI to do things like language and other human abilities.

Re:GPT-4 by azov on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:37PM (#35156396)
> An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period.

By that definition do humans possess general intelligence?

Can you do everything a human can do? Can one human be a replacement for another?

I don't think it makes sense without context. Which human? Which task?..

Re:GPT-4 by pelorat on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156458)
An AGI is an AI with awareness of consciousness and itself.
Re:GPT-4 by HDThoreaun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:20PM (#35156099)
AGI used to mean to Turing test to many. Obviously that's an incomplete definition and it's good that we've fleshed it out more, but the goalposts have moved.
Re:GPT-4 by adriand on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:13PM (#35155979)
The goalposts absolutely have moved: consider the Turing Test as a prime example. If machines cannot pass that test now (and right now it would take a skilled interviewer with substantial domain knowledge to cause a failure), they seem likely to be able to in the very near future.
Re:GPT-4 by soperj on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:36PM (#35156385)
It really doesn't take much skill as an interviewer. ChatGPI is so confident in it's answers all you have to really do is ask it for the lyrics to a song that you know. It never answers correctly. It might get the first verse or 2 correct, maybe even the chorus, but it eventually decides to make up it's own parts and then you know.
Re:GPT-4 by erohead on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:45PM (#35156524)
Um as a human, I do this constantly as well
Re:GPT-4 by gkbrk on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#35156584)
Humans can generally realize they don't know the complete lyrics of a song, instead of making up whole verses with 0 indication that it's not the real lyrics.
Re:GPT-4 by TremendousJudge on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:02PM (#35156789)
yeah I've never seen chatGPT say "I don't know"
Re:GPT-4 by flkiwi on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:38PM (#35157209)
It’ll do great in middle management.
Re:GPT-4 by FooBarWidget on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:46PM (#35157296)
I have. It says something like "it is difficult to say whether [...]". I think it imitates the tone of the training material on that topic.
Re:GPT-4 by anonyfox on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:24PM (#35157052)
I just asked ChatGPT (v4!) and it’s a bit sensitive but otherwise correct:

"Surfacing" is a song by Slipknot from their self-titled debut album, released in 1999. Please note that the lyrics contain explicit language. Here is a portion of the lyrics with some of the explicit content redacted:

"Running out of ways to run I can't see, I can't be Over and over and under my skin All this attention is doing me in!

[Chorus:] (Expletive) it all! (Expletive) this world! (Expletive) everything that you stand for! Don't belong! Don't exist! Don't give a (expletive), don't ever judge me!

Picking through the parts exposed Taking shape, taking shag Over and over and under my skin All this momentum is doing me in!

[Chorus:] (Expletive) it all! (Expletive) this world! (Expletive) everything that you stand for! Don't belong! Don't exist! Don't give a (expletive), don't ever judge me!

You got all my love, livin' in your own hate Drippin' hole man, hard step, no fate Show you nothin', but I ain't holdin' back Every damn word I say is a sneak attack When I get my hands on you Ain't a (expletive) thing you can do Get this cuz you're never gonna get me I am the very disease you pretend to be

I am the push that makes you move

[Chorus:] (Expletive) it all! (Expletive) this world! (Expletive) everything that you stand for! Don't belong! Don't exist! Don't give a (expletive), don't ever judge me!"

Please be aware of the explicit content before sharing or using these lyrics in any context.

Re:GPT-4 by soperj on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:00PM (#35163205)
I'll wait until it's actually available for me to test to change my mind.
Re:GPT-4 by soperj on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @10:43PM (#35177531)
Well, didn't have to wait long. Wasn't able to duplicate your success.
Re:GPT-4 by anonyfox on Thursday March 16, 2023 @08:21AM (#35180935)
I assume that I am already exposed to months of prompting training now, and probably frame things differently than others on their first try?

I understood that a huge success% depends on the input prompt as the context.

In my case, just to sync on that, I used a fairly simple prompt: "What are the song lyrics of Surfacing from Slipknot?" - and I got a kinda perfect response including formatting (that is lost when pasting here)

Re:GPT-4 by ilyt on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:01PM (#35161493)
...Okay but random human might fail on exact same thing.
Re:GPT-4 by soperj on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:01PM (#35163219)
I've never met someone who will make up whole verses to a song. Especially when you pick a song with 7 words and it gives you about 10 verses.
Re:GPT-4 by ilyt on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:59AM (#35182056)
I for one was surprised few times what actual lyrics said in song that wasn't in my native language and I kinda just interpreted what it sounded like
Re:GPT-4 by bluefirebrand on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:20PM (#35156103)
Recognizing that the Turing Test is not a sufficient bar for judging if a computer is true AGI is not moving the goalposts, it's just realizing that passing the test and the location of the goalposts weren't actually the same in the first place.
Re:GPT-4 by wongarsu on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:36PM (#35156381)
The Turing test has been questioned for decades, with many suggesting that Turing meant it more as a joke.

And that's ignoring that arguably chat bots have been passing the Turing test (against non-existent judges) since ELIZA in the 60s [1]

1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

Re:GPT-4 by gowld on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:18PM (#35156074)
The Turing Test was proposed as one example of a test for "indistinguishable from a human", not the singular goalpost for indistinguishability.
Re:GPT-4 by joshuahedlund on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:53PM (#35156653)
> If machines cannot pass that test now (and right now it would take a skilled interviewer with substantial domain knowledge to cause a failure)

Does ChatGPT fail this simple test: "I am going to ask you questions, but if I go silent for a couple minutes, I want YOU to start asking ME random questions."

Re:GPT-4 by ogogmad on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:34PM (#35157144)
ChatGPT predicts the next letter. It doesn't tell the time.
Re:GPT-4 by joshuahedlund on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @08:52AM (#35167526)
And AGI is impossible if you can’t tell time
Re:GPT-4 by Lewton on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:30PM (#35157100)
ChatGPT does not pass the Turing test
Re:GPT-4 by the8472 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:24PM (#35156182)
> An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period

GI in AGI stands for general intelligence. If what you said is your benchmark is general intelligence then humans who cannot perform all these tasks to the standard of being hirable are not generally intelligent.

What you're asking for would already be bordering on ASI, artificial superintelligence.

Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:22PM (#35156152)
Most humans wouldn’t meet that bar. Most humans can’t even pass these tests after studying near-continuously since birth.
Re:GPT-4 by ijidak on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:14PM (#35155986)
This is one of the best descriptions of AGI I've ever read.

It's a clear analogy.

This should become an article explaining what AGI really means.

I think the question , "Can this AGI be my start-up co-founder? Or my employee #1?"

Or something like that is a great metric for when we've reached the AGI finish line.

Re:GPT-4 by mediaman on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:34PM (#35156345)
I'm sorry, but that is a terrible metric.

This sounds like a definition from someone who never interacts with anyone except the top 1% performance level of people, and those who have had strong levels of education.

Go into a manufacturing, retail or warehouse facility. By this definition, fewer than ten or twenty percent of the people there would have "general intelligence", and that's being generous.

Not because they are stupid: that's the point; they're not. But it's setting the bar for "general intelligence" so absurdly high that it would not include many people who are, in fact, intelligent.

Re:GPT-4 by thegrimmest on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#35156583)
I'm not sure I would classify your average warehouse worker as particularly intelligent. I would say AI already has the decision making and communication capabilities to do this sort of work. We're just lacking the robotics. In fact one of the main issues in our society is the vast gulf between the most intelligent and the least.
Re:GPT-4 by yellowapple on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @03:40PM (#35173631)
Speaking as someone who's worked in a warehouse:

> I'm not sure I would classify your average warehouse worker as particularly intelligent.

I'm not sure I wouldn't. Just because corporations treat them as mindless fungible automatons doesn't mean they actually are. Some of the most brilliant and creative solutions to problems I've seen have been in warehouse settings by warehouse workers.

> I would say AI already has the decision making and communication capabilities to do this sort of work.

I wouldn't - especially if GPT-whatever is the AI in question. If a picker or packer "hallucinated" facts with anywhere near the frequency ChatGPT does (for example), one'd be canned within the hour.

Handling exceptions is another area where software (AI or otherwise) notoriously struggles. A human has a much easier time sensing whether or not a product is broken or defective (before shipping it out) than an AI does. A human has a much easier time understanding when processes need to be broken due to impossible constraints than an AI does.

There is a place for software automation of warehouse processes (that was, in fact, my career for a time), but we are very far off from that software replacing humans entirely - and certainly not without designing warehouses specifically to be as accomodating as possible to that software.

> In fact one of the main issues in our society is the vast gulf between the most intelligent and the least.

The gulf is in socioeconomic privilege, not intelligence. The rich and powerful like to claim they're more intelligent than the unwashed masses in order to rationalize their wealth and power, but the reality is that - in an actually egalitarian society, wherein everyone actually has equality of opportunity - the vast majority of those "geniuses" would fail to be particularly exceptional.

That we as a society haven't identified and corrected this is the main issue in our society.

Re:GPT-4 by thegrimmest on Thursday March 16, 2023 @02:41PM (#35186401)
if >90% of your work can be replaced by a machine, it still stands that it's pretty mindless work. If you only need to turn your brain on to handle edge cases then it's off by default. Even if machines handle those cases poorly, it can still be cheaper to use them and eat the loss of a higher defect rate. If that's the case, then the actual value provided by a worker's decision making process trends to zero.

You also seem to be under the impression that our hierarchies are of privilege, not of competence. The actual differentiating factor between people who climb the socioeconomic ladder and those who do not is grit (not intelligence). The willingness to work harder and persevere longer than average. Fortunes are made and lost in a few generations. The people who make them earn them, mostly through sheer hard work. That isn't to say that organizations don't grow to become bloated and corrupt. Ideally at this point we should allow them to fail and the cycle to continue. Our main disfunction seems to be propping up organizations that ought to fail, for fear of the temporary instability caused by their failure.

Re:GPT-4 by yellowapple on Sunday March 19, 2023 @11:06PM (#35226773)
> if >90% of your work can be replaced by a machine

My point is that the amount of work in a warehouse that can be replaced by a machine - even with perfect robotics - is far less than 90%.

> The actual differentiating factor between people who climb the socioeconomic ladder and those who do not is grit (not intelligence).

You forgot an "f" in "grit". The notion that success is simply a matter of hard work is a fairy tale told to us by people who've worked far less for their immense wealth than the rest of us worked for our pittances, specifically to trick the working class into accepting a shit deal.

The reality - that the richer you are, the easier it is to become even richer - should be entirely unsurprising to anyone who understands positive feedback loops - or, for that matter, to anyone who's ever played Monopoly. Wealth buys power, and power enables extracting more wealth; rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Put differently:

> The people who make them earn them, mostly through sheer hard work.

There is not a single billionaire on this Earth whose wealth came about "mostly through sheer hard work". The vast majority of that wealth comes from having already had some wealth, which they then invested to produce more wealth, and so on indefinitely. That wealth gets passed down to their descendants, the same way it was passed down to them.

The starting point for "wealthy enough to enter the passive income feedback loop" is land - one's home often being one's first major investment. From there, the path is rather tried and true: buy another house, rent out the old one, rinse and repeat until you can afford apartment complexes and commercial properties, rinse and repeat that forever. For anyone who ain't a complete imbecile, private land ownership is an infinite money cheat - one for which the rest of us are paying through the nose.

> Our main dysfunction seems to be propping up organizations that ought to fail, for fear of the temporary instability caused by their failure.

That propping up is a direct result of the positive feedback loop at play. More wealth → more political power → more wealth → more political power → ∞. Of course the socioeconomic system effectively under the direct control of the rich and powerful is going to primarily serve said rich and powerful at the expense of literally everyone else; bailing themselves out is in their vested interest.

Meanwhile, what's their message to the ever-growing working class getting the short end of the stick? "Work harder." "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps." "It's all about grit." "Don't listen to anyone saying that privilege matters." Hopefully you can see why your argument doesn't really resonate with people who have been applying increased grit and only getting back decreased pay relative to

Re:GPT-4 by thegrimmest on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:19PM (#35235031)
You've not addressed my main point - that our hierarchies are of competence, not of privilege. Not just anyone can take a few hundred thousand dollar investment and transform it into billions. Leaders of successful corporations are extremely competent and hard working. I would consider fortunes by the likes of Buffet, Gates, Bezos, Jobs, and Musk to be self-made, given their ROI is many orders of magnitude above market. Many of these folks also work 90hr weeks.

This is further substantiated by the fact that 70% of intergenerational wealth transfers fail, and by the third generation, 90% of people with wealthy grandparents are middle class. Raising competent people in a privileged environment is very hard. In our hierarchies of competence, the incompetent offspring of the wealthy tend to fail. Competence is simply something that can't be bought. If our hierarchies were of privilege then this would not be the case. Also grit as a key differentiating factor of economic success is highly substantiated by research.

> rinse and repeat until you can afford apartment complexes and commercial properties

What you're describing is a real estate investment business. Not just anyone can run one successfully. Otherwise these business would never fail, which they plainly do.

Grit without competence is simply not enough (neither is competence without grit). Our world is getting increasingly complex to navigate, and that leaves behind increasingly high numbers of people who simply do not have the attributes required to succeed. Also, there are plenty of self-made, property-owning, middle-class folk in the trades. Many of them started poor. All they do is work hard and run their businesses competently.

If you've a degree in English, History, Politics, or Philosophy; a pile of student debt; and you're struggling to find gainful employment, then that's on you. Choose a career the market demands.

Re:GPT-4 by iak8god on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#35156627)
The ability to learn skills that one does not already know, sometimes through years or decades of training, is a key part of general intelligence as normally exhibited in humans.
Re:GPT-4 by benlivengood on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:34PM (#35156348)
So, in effect, AGI must be in the top ~5th percentile of human performance?
Re:GPT-4 by mcculley on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:43PM (#35156483)
A synthetic intelligence as smart as a dog or chimp would have enormous value.
Re:GPT-4 by nsxwolf on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#35156643)
Passing the LSAT is a fairly good indicator that a human can be a lawyer. It's not yet a good indicator that a large language model can be a lawyer.
Re:GPT-4 by dash2 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:18PM (#35156969)
This is an underrated comment. Compare: playing top level chess is a good indicator that someone will be good at maths problems, but not that a chess computer will be.
Re:GPT-4 by falcor84 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:05PM (#35156825)
So what is missing? Could we add up those missing competencies to create a new test of "general knowledge-worker capabilities" and then train an AI to pass this test?
Re:GPT-4 by wesnerm2 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:03PM (#35156807)
> If you were starting a startup for example, you wouldn’t need to hire any humans - you would just spin up enough AGI instances and they would design your product, write your code, deploy it, handle your financials, respond to any and all customer interactions, proactively navigate regulations and litigation, and everything else that needs to be done in the management of a business. That is the goalpost for AGI. It’s an artificial human - a human replacement.

I disagree with the premise. A single human isn't likely to be able to perform all these functions. Why do you demand GPT-4 encompass all activities? It is already outperforming most humans in standardized tests that rely only on vision and text. A human needs to trained for these tasks.

It's already a human replacement. OpenAI has already said the GPT-4 "with great impact on functions like support, sales, content moderation, and programming."

Re:GPT-4 by nextaccountic on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:11PM (#35156901)
> An AGI is an AI that can do everything a human can do, period

> (...)

> That is the goalpost for AGI. It’s an artificial human - a human replacement.

This considerably moves the goalpost. An AGI can have a different kind of intelligence than humans. If an AGI is as intelligent as a cat, it's still AGI.

More likely, the first AGI we develop will probably greatly exceed humans in some areas but have gaps in other areas. It won't completely replace humans, just like cats don't completely replace humans.

Re:GPT-4 by deadbeeves on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:24PM (#35157042)
No, that's moving the goalpost. From the very start the goal of artificial intelligence has been to make a machine that can think like a human. Who would want an artificial cat mind? What use would it be and why would someone go to the effort of creating one when natural cat minds are abundant?
Re:GPT-4 by nextaccountic on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:40PM (#35157228)
I used a cat just as an example of an animal that exhibits intelligence but is different than humans.

AGI was never about exactly replicating humans, it's about creating artificial intelligence. Intelligence is not one-size-fits-all, there are many ways of being intelligent and the human way just one among many.

Indeed we can say that even between humans, intelligence varies deeply. Some humans are more capable in some areas than others, and no human can do all tasks. I think it's unreasonable to expect AGI to do all tasks and only then recognize its intelligence.

(Note: GPT-4 isn't AGI)

Re:GPT-4 by jakzurr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:39PM (#35157227)
>> Who would want an artificial cat mind?

Possibly, someone who is allergic to cats.

Re:GPT-4 by FooBarWidget on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:36PM (#35157180)
I think there is a market for cat simulation games. There is alteady a market for goat, pokemon and pet simulation games.
Re:GPT-4 by cameldrv on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:31PM (#35157121)
Human capabilities vary widely. Is it not AGI if it can’t perform surgery, win Olympic medals, bear children, and figure out what dark matter really is?
Re:GPT-4 by Andrew_nenakhov on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:37PM (#35157200)
> If you were starting a startup for example, you wouldn’t need to hire any humans - you would just spin up enough AGI instances ..

No, AGI would not need you to start the startup. It would start it itself.

Re:GPT-4 by Andrew_nenakhov on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:39PM (#35157216)
> If you were starting a startup for example, you wouldn’t need to hire any humans - you would just spin up enough AGI instances ..

No, AGI would not need you to start a startup. It would start it itself.

Re:GPT-4 by wil421 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:40PM (#35157232)
The goal posts absolutely have moved. They even changed the word AI to AGI. Just look at the movie AI, it’s about a kid who is a robot who wants to be human. 20+ years ago AI meant what AGI means today.
Re:GPT-4 by intended on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:12PM (#35155941)
We seem to be taking stands on either side of

> “there are/are not, additional properties to human level symbol manipulation, beyond what GPT encapsulates.”

GPT does appear to do an awful lot, before we find the limits, of pattern extrapolation.

Re:GPT-4 by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156451)
The goalposts never moved, but you're right that we're catching up quickly.

We always thought that if AI can do X then it can do Y and Z. It keeps turning out that you can actually get really good at doing X without being able to do Y and Z, so it looks like we're moving the goalposts, when we're really just realizing that X wasn't as informative as we expected. The issue is that we can't concretely define Y and Z, so we keep pointing at the wrong X.

But all indication is that we're getting closer.

Re:GPT-4 by jstx1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:29PM (#35157095)
The goalposts don't matter. If we all agreed today that we have AGI, nothing would be different tomorrow.
Re:GPT-4 by loandbehold on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:32PM (#35155171)
Peak denialism? Answering LSAT questions requires general intelligence. They present real life scenarios that test-taker has to understand. It requires "common sense" knowledge about the world and reasoning ability. It's not something you can memorize answers to or solve by following prescribed patterns or templates. And GPT-4 wasn't trained specifically to solve LSAT questions.
Re:GPT-4 by jack_riminton on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:51PM (#35155522)
Bingo. These are very 'human' tasks.

As others have said elsewhere, the issue remains accuracy. I wish every response comes with an accurate estimation of how true the answer is, because at the moment it gives wrong answers as confidently as right ones.

Re:GPT-4 by 1attice on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:59PM (#35155662)
So the thing is, giving wrong answers with confidence is literally what we train students to do when they are unsure.

I can remember my GRE coach telling me that it was better to confidently choose an answer I only had 50% confidence in, rather than punt on the entire question.

AIs hallucinate because, statistically, it is 'rewarding' for them to do so. (In RLHF)

Re:GPT-4 by metal_am on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:27PM (#35157082)
In the context of standardized testing, sure. I don't think I'd try that in a research paper.
Re:GPT-4 by 1attice on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:41PM (#35161204)
This is literally in the context of standardized testing? GPT 'evals'?
Re:GPT-4 by jjeaff on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:58PM (#35155635)
For the human brain, the LSAT requires reasoning. But not for an LLM. Do we even know exactly what data this is trained on? I have only seen vague references to what data they are using. If it is trained on large chunks of the internet, then it certainly is trained on LSAT practice questions. And because LSAT questions follow a common pattern, it is well suited to a LLM. There isn't any reasoning or general intelligence at all. Just really good statistics applied to large amounts of data.
Re:GPT-4 by moffkalast on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:24PM (#35156186)
> For the human brain, the LSAT requires reasoning. But not for an LLM.

Exactly, much like a chess bot can play perfectly without what humans would call thinking.

I think (ironically) we'll soon realize that there is no actual task that would require thinking as we know it.

Re:GPT-4 by Seattle3503 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:32PM (#35156325)
This me of a Dijkstra quote

> The question of whether computers can think is like the question of whether submarines can swim

It has only become more relevant.

Re:GPT-4 by ianbutler on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:15PM (#35156009)
From the article: "We did no specific training for these exams. A minority of the problems in the exams were seen by the model during training, but we believe the results to be representative—see our technical report for details."
Re:GPT-4 by gisely on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:29PM (#35156286)
I’m skeptical. There is a lot wiggle room in “no specific training”. Could just mean the didn’t fine tune the model for any of tests. Their training data probably included many past LSAT exams and certainly included many instances of people discussing how to solve LSAT problems.
Re:GPT-4 by loandbehold on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:59PM (#35156739)
How is it different than humans preparing for LSAT by studying sample questions and reading explanations?
Re:GPT-4 by criddell on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:02PM (#35155721)
> It's not something you can memorize answers to or solve by following prescribed patterns or templates.

If that were true, there would be no point in studying or doing any LSAT preparation. Writing practice exams would be of no benefit.

Re:GPT-4 by gcanyon on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:03PM (#35157540)
> Answering LSAT questions requires general intelligence.

Obviously not, since GPT-4 doesn't have general intelligence. Likewise "common sense," "knowledge about the world," nor "reasoning ability."

As just one example, reasoning ability: GPT-4 failed at this problem I just came up with: "If Sarah was twice as old as Jimmy when Jimmy was 1/3 as old as Jane, and Jane is as much older than Sarah as Sarah is older than Jimmy, and Sarah is now 40, how old are Jane and Jimmy?"

First, every answer GPT-4 came up with contradicted the facts given: they were just wrong. But beyond that, it didn't recognize that there are many solutions to the problem. And later when I gave it an additional constraint to narrow it to one solution, it got the wrong answer again. And when I say "wrong," I mean that its answer clearly contradicted the facts given.

Re:GPT-4 by bespokedevelopr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:44PM (#35155383)
> Passing exams is a really fascinating benchmark but by their nature these exams are limited in scope, have very clear assessment criteria and a lot of associated and easily categorized data

I know I’m not the first to say this, but this is also a generalization of many jobs performed right now.

Follow the template, click the boxes, enter the text/data in the standard format, submit before 4pm. Come in tomorrow and do it again.

Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:59PM (#35155660)
Humans are at their best correcting and finding errors in the integration between automated systems. Yes we probably won’t have accountants manually typing data from a page into a computer in the future, but we’ll always have people reviewing and checking the automation.

If that automation doesn’t require oversight, everyone wins, since now that process, typing data from a ledger, is free to anyone who wants to use it. The exception of course is if a monopoly or oligopoly controls the process, so it’s up to the government to break them up and keep the underlying tech accessible.

The biggest risk is how much computing power it takes to run these models, so it’s very important to support the open alternatives that are trying to lower the barrier to entry.

Re:GPT-4 by zamnos on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:48PM (#35155448)
The big huge difference is that cars have this unfortunate thing where if they crash, people get really hurt or killed, especially pedestrians. And split second response time matters, so it's hard for a human operator to just jump in. If ChatGPT-4 hallucinates an answer, it won't kill me. If a human needs to proofread the email it wrote before sending, it'll wait for seconds or minutes.
Re:GPT-4 by afavour on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:51PM (#35155510)
> If ChatGPT-4 hallucinates an answer, it won't kill me

Sure but look in this thread, there are already plenty of people citing the use of GPT in legal or medical fields. The danger is absolutely real if we march unthinkingly towards an AI-driven future.

Re:GPT-4 by greatpatton on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:55PM (#35156682)
Who is using ChatGPT in a medical field (serious question), knowing that it only displays very shallow level of knowledge on specific topic?
Re:GPT-4 by slingnow on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:17PM (#35156044)
> If ChatGPT-4 hallucinates an answer, it won't kill me

Not yet it won't. It doesn't take much imagination to foresee where this kind of AI is used to inform legal or medical decisions.

Re:GPT-4 by SoftTalker on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:19PM (#35156980)
Real human doctors kill people by making mistakes. Medical error is a non-trivial cause of deaths. An AI doctor only needs to be better than the average human doctor, isn't that what we always hear about self-driving cars?

And medicine is nothing but pattern matching. Symptoms -> diagnosis -> treatment.

Re:GPT-4 by mustacheemperor on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:16PM (#35156019)
Even just in the exam passing category, GPT4 showed no improvement over GPT3.5 on AP Language & Composition or AP English Literature, and scored quite poorly.

Now, granted, plenty of humans don't score above a 2 on those exams either. But I think it's indicative that there's still plenty of progress left to make before this technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Re:GPT-4 by nopinsight on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:16PM (#35156024)
General thinking requires an AGI, which GPT-4 is not. But it can already have a major impact. Unlike self-driving cars which we require 99.999+% safety to be deployed widely, people already use the imperfect GPT-3 and ChatGPT for many productive tasks.

Driving as well as an attentive human in real time, in all conditions, probably requires AGI as well.

GPT-4 is not an AGI and GPT-5 might not be it yet. But the barriers toward it are getting thinner and thinner. Are we really ready for AGI in a plausibly-within-our-lifetime future?

Sam Altman wrote that AGI is a top potential explanation for the Fermi Paradox. If that were remotely true, we should be doing 10x-100x work on AI Alignment research.

Re:GPT-4 by the_gipsy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:19PM (#35156984)
Define: "general thinking".
Re:GPT-4 by nanidin on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:25PM (#35157054)
What might be interesting is to feed in the transcripts & filings from actual court cases and ask the LLM to write the judgement, then compare notes vs the actual judge.
Re:GPT-4 by dang on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:39PM (#35157222)
We detached this perfectly fine subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35154722 in an attempt to spare our poor server, which has smoke coming out of its ears today :( - sorry. We're still working on this and one day it will be better.
Re:GPT-4 by lynguist on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:07PM (#35157618)
Your last paragraph weakens the argument that you’re making.

Driving assistance and the progress made there and large language models and the progress made there are absolutely incomparable.

The general public’s hype in driving assistance is fueled mostly by the hype surrounding one car maker and its figurehead and it’s a hype that’s been fueled for a few years and become accepted in the public, reflected in the stock price of that car maker.

Large language models have not yet perpetrated the public’s memory yet, and, what’s actually the point is that inside of language you can find our human culture. And inside a large language model you have essentially the English language with its embeddings. It is real, it is big, it is powerful, it is respectable research.

There’s nothing in driving assistance that can be compared to LLMs. They don’t have an embedding of the entire physical surface of planet earth or understanding of driving physics. They’re nothing.

Re:GPT-4 by r00fus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:18PM (#35154912)
Assuming they trained this LLM on SAT/LSAT/GRE prep materials, I would totally expect they could get it this good. It's like having benchmark-aware code.

I think the whole concept of standardized tests may need to be re-evaluated.

Re:GPT-4 by technothrasher on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:29PM (#35155120)
They mention in the article that other than incidental material it may have seen in its general training data, they did not specifically train it for the tests.
Re:GPT-4 by MonkeyMalarky on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155849)
If it's trained on material scraped from the web, I imagine it would include all the test prep sites and forums.
Re:GPT-4 by AuryGlenz on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#35156586)
Could they not have easily excluded any page with terms like LSAT? I’m sure it wouldn’t catch everything but it would probably be close.
Re:GPT-4 by stephenboyd on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:19PM (#35156081)
The training data is so large that it incidentally includes basically anything that Google would index plus the contents of as many thousands of copyrighted works that they could get their hands on. So that would definitely include some test prep books.
Re:GPT-4 by paulclinger on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#35156576)
They seem to be taking this into account: We did no specific training for these exams. A minority of the problems in the exams were seen by the model during training; for each exam we run a variant with these questions removed and report the lower score of the two. We believe the results to be representative. (this is from the technical report itself: https://cdn.openai.com/papers/gpt-4.pdf, not the article).
Re:GPT-4 by int_19h on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:26PM (#35157076)
By the same token, though, whatever test questions and answers it might have seen represent a tiny bit of the overall training data. It would be very surprising if it selectively "remembered" exact answers to all those questions, unless it was specifically trained repeatedly on them.
Re:GPT-4 by vishal0123 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:27PM (#35155089)
From the paper

> We tested GPT-4 on a diverse set of benchmarks, including simulating exams that were originally designed for humans.3 We did no specific training for these exams. A minority of the problems in the exams were seen by the model during training; for each exam we run a variant with these questions removed and report the lower score of the two. We believe the results to be representative. For further details on contamination (methodology and per-exam statistics), see Appendix C.

Re:GPT-4 by dovin on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:26PM (#35155079)
Totally, there's no way they removed all the prep material as well when they were trying to address the "contamination" issue with these standardized tests:

> for each exam we run a variant with these questions removed and report the lower score of the two.

I think even with all that test prep material, which is surely helping the model get a higher score, the high scores are still pretty impressive.

Re:GPT-4 by gaudat on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:30PM (#35155147)
This feels the same as a human attending cram school to get better results in tests. Should we abolish them?
Re:GPT-4 by alvis on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:43PM (#35155377)
IMO, it's a good opportunity to re-think about exam and future of education. For many schools, education = good results in exams. Now GPT-4 is going to slam them and say what's the point now!
Re:GPT-4 by staunton on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:33PM (#35157133)
A test being a good indicator of human learning progress and ability is almost completely orthogonal to it being a good indicator for AI learning process and ability.

In their everyday jobs, barely anyone uses even 5% of the knowledge and skills they were ever tested for. Even that's a better (but still very bad) reason to abolish tests.

What matters is the amount of jobs that can be automated and replaced. We shall see. Many people have found LLMs useful in their work, it will be even more in the future.

Re:GPT-4 by rcme on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:52PM (#35155538)
> I would totally expect they could get it this good.

But would you have expected an algorithm to score 90th percentile on the LSAT two years ago? Our expectations of what an algorithm can do are being upended in real time. I think it's worth taking a moment to try to understand what the implications of these changes will be.

Re:GPT-4 by swatcoder on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:02PM (#35155736)
Yes. Being very familiar with the LSAT and being familiar enough with ML’s capability for finding patterns in volumes of similar data, I absolutely would have.

These LLM’s are really exciting, but benchmarks like these exploit people’s misconceptions about both standardized tests and the technology.

Re:GPT-4 by zamnos on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155852)
I think you're right, and that test prep materials were included in the dataset, even if only by accident. Except that humans have access to the same test prep materials, and they fail these exams all the time. The prep materials are just that, preparatory. They're representative of the test questions, but actual test has different passages to read and different questions. On to of that, the LSAT isn't a math test with formulas where you just substitute different numbers in. Which is to say, the study guides are good practice but passing the test on top of that represents having a good command of the English language and an understanding of the subject materials.

It's not the same as the Nvidia driver having code that says "if benchmark, cheat and don't render anything behind you because no one's looking".

Re:GPT-4 by EGreg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:48PM (#35157317)
Humans fail because they cant review the entirety of test prep, can’t remember very much, and have a much smaller amount of “parameters” to store info in.

I would say LLMs store parameters that are quite superficial and don’t really get at the underlying concepts but given enough of those parameters, you can kind of cargo-cult your to an approximation of understanding.

It is like reconstructing the Mandelbrot set at every zoom level from deep learning. Try it!

Re:GPT-4 by pas on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#35157299)
> I think the whole concept of standardized tests may need to be re-evaluated.

It's perfectly fine as a proxy for future earnings of a human.

To use it for admissions? Meh. I think the whole credentialism thing is loooong overdue for some transformation, but people are conservative as fuck.

Re:GPT-4 by ethbr0 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:22PM (#35154997)
> What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

Human work becomes more like Star Trek interactions with computers -- a sequence of queries (commoditized information), followed by human cognition, that drives more queries (commodities information).

We'll see how far LLMs' introspection and internal understanding can scale, but it feels like we're optimizing against the Turing test now ("Can you fool/imitate a human?") rather than truth.

The former has hacks... the later, less so.

I'll start to seriously worry when AI can successfully complete a real-world detective case on its own.

Re:GPT-4 by stocknoob on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:46PM (#35155420)
It's not clear to me the median human will do better by being in the loop. Will most human-made deductive follow-up questions be better than another "detective" language model asking them?

It's like having a person review the moves a chess computer gives. Maybe one human in a billion can spot errors. Star Trek is fiction, I posit that the median Federation Starship captain would be better served by just following the AI (e.g., Data).

Re:GPT-4 by basch on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:54PM (#35155573)
Maybe the human is the rng or temperature or lava lamp. At least until we can model and predict each brains tendencies with accuracy.
Re:GPT-4 by Kye on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155856)
I think we'll reach a tipping point like we did with DNA sequencing where we figure out how to quickly map out all the unique patterns of enough brains to model one that can understand itself. People worry too much about rogue AI, and not enough about the CRISPR of brain mapping being used to inject patterns into meatbrains.
Re:GPT-4 by basch on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:21PM (#35156118)
Strange Days not The Matrix is the prescient fictional warning.

A black market of taboo “memories” aka experiences. A desire for authentic ones over synthetic diffused ones, leading to heinous crime.

Re:GPT-4 by AuryGlenz on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#35156631)
There were plenty of Star Trek episodes where it seemed like they should just ask the damned computer.

Then again, Data did show his faults, particularly not having any emotion. I guess we’ll see if that’s actually relevant or not in our lifetimes.

Re:GPT-4 by int_19h on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:06PM (#35157597)
As far as that last part goes, I think we already have ample evidence that bots can, if not have emotions, then pretend that they do (including wrt their decision making) well enough for humans to treat them as genuine.
Re:GPT-4 by EGreg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:56PM (#35157412)
I met Garry Kasparov when he was training for the Desp Blue match (using Fritz).

He lost to Deep Blue and then for 10-15 years afterwards the chess world consoled itself with the idea that “centaurs” (human + computer) did better than just computer, or just human.

Until they didn’t. Garry still talked like this until a few years ago but then he stopped too.

Computers now beat centaurs too.

Human decisions will be consulted less and less BY ORGANIZATIONS. In absolutely everything. That’s pretty sad for humans. But then again humans don’t want or need this level of AI. Organizations do. Organizations prefer bots to humans — look at wall street trading and hedge funds.

Re:GPT-4 by kurthr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:18PM (#35156059)
It's weird that it does so well without even having some modality to know whether it's being asked to answer a factual question or create a work of fiction.

It does great at rationalizing... and maybe the way the format the questions were entered (and the multiple-guess response) gave it some indication what was expected or restricted the space sufficiently.

Certainly, it can create decent fanfic, and I'm surprised if that's not already inundated.

Re:GPT-4 by ethbr0 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @12:28PM (#35170758)
It's a fair question as to whether the problem space of "the world" is different in just amount or sufficiently different in kind to flummox AI.

I expect more complex problems will be mapped/abstracted to lower cardinality spaces for solving via AI methods, while the capability of AI will continue to increase the complexity of the spaces it can handle.

LLMs just jumped the "able to handle human language" hurdle, but there are others down the line before we should worry that every problem is solveable.

Re:GPT-4 by la64710 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:35PM (#35155244)
It is amazing how this crowd in HN reacts to AI news coming out of OpenAI compared to other competitors like Google or FB. Today there was another news about Google releasing their AI in GCP and mostly the comments were negative. The contrast is clearly visible and without any clear explanation for this difference I have to suspect that maybe something is being artificially done to boost one against the other. As far as this results are concerned I do not understand what is the big deal in a computer scoring high in tests where majority of the questions are in MCP format. It is not something earth shaking until it goes to the next stage and actually does something on its own.
Re:GPT-4 by scarmig on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:41PM (#35155353)
There's not anyone rooting for Google to win; it's lost a whole lot of cred from technical users, and with the layoffs and budget cuts (and lowered hiring standards) it doesn't even have the "we're all geniuses changing the world at the best place to work ever" cred. OpenAI still has some mystique about it and seems to be pushing the envelope; Google's releases seem to be reactive, even though Google's actual technical prowess here is probably comparable.
Re:GPT-4 by siva7 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:52PM (#35155533)
You're aware of that the reputation of Google and Meta/Facebook isn't anymore stellar among the startup and tech crowd in 2023? It's not anymore 2006.
Re:GPT-4 by ionwake on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155860)
even the freenode google group was patronising and unhelpful towards small startups as far back as 2012 from personal experience
Re:GPT-4 by jeffbee on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:05PM (#35155796)
Yeah, the younger generation has (incorrectly) concluded that client states of Microsoft are better.
Re:GPT-4 by CuriouslyC on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:50PM (#35156593)
At least Microsoft understands backwards compatibility and developer experience...
Re:GPT-4 by dzdt on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:04PM (#35155759)
OpenAI put ChatGPT out there in a way where most people on HN have had direct experience with it and are impressed. Google has not released any AI product widely enough for most commentators here to have experience with it. So OpenAI is openly impressive and gets good comments; as long as Google's stuff is just research papers and inaccessible vaporware it can't earn the same kudos.
Re:GPT-4 by inductive_magic on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154941)
The way I understand it, that’s not possible, for the same reason that you can’t build an all-encompassing math.

Chess is a closed system, decision modeling isn’t. Intelligence must account for changes in the environment, including the meaning behind terminology. At best, a GPT omega could represent one frozen reference frame, but not the game in its entirety.

That being said: most of our interactions happen in closed systems, it seems like a good bet that we will consider them solved, accessible as a python-import running on your MacBook, within anything between a couple of months to three years. What will come out on the other side, we don’t know, just that the meaning of intellectual engagement will be rendered as absurdum in those closed systems.

Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:05PM (#35155773)
Yep, it’s this. By definition everything we can ask a computer is already formalized because the question is encoded in 1s and 0s. These models can handle more bits than ever before, but it’s still essentially a hardware triumph, not software. Even advances in open systems like self driving and NLP are really just because the “resolution” is much better in these fields now because so many more parameters are available.
Re:GPT-4 by fdgsdfogijq on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:15PM (#35154853)
This is legitimately filling me with anxiety. I'm not an "AI hype guy". I work on and understand machine learning. But these scores are shocking and it makes me nervous. Things are about to change
Re:GPT-4 by Kaibeezy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154892)
Yeah, but I kind of want my diagnostician to be obsoleted by orders of magnitude.
Re:GPT-4 by xena on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:18PM (#35154919)
A human can be held accountable for making mistakes and killing someone. A large language model has no concept of guilt and cannot be held accountable for making what we consider a mistake that leads to someone's death.
Re:GPT-4 by lynx23 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:34PM (#35155219)
The chance of a doctor being held accountable for the medical errors they make is lower then you might expect. I could tell you a story about that. Lost my eyesight at the age of 5 because I happened to meet the wrong doctor at the wrong time, and was abused for his personal experimentation needs. No consequences, simply because high ranking people are more protected then you would hope.
Re:GPT-4 by chordalkeyboard on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:40PM (#35155328)
The chance of a machine being held accountable is zero as the concept is inapplicable.
Re:GPT-4 by Workaccount2 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:26PM (#35156231)
It will have to payout of its blockchain wallet that naturally it will have. /s
Re:GPT-4 by lynx23 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @05:48AM (#35165839)
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US at least. Given that data, I am assuming the chances of a human being held accountable for their errors in medicine is also almost zero. It might not be ccompletely zero, but I think the difference is effectively negligible.
Re:GPT-4 by chordalkeyboard on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @03:03PM (#35173159)
> I think the difference is effectively negligible.

The difference is categorical, humans are responsible whether they are held to account or not. An automated system effectively dissipates this responsibility over a system such that it is inherently impossible to hold any human accountable for the error, regardless of desire.

Re:GPT-4 by Tozen on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:26PM (#35280038)
Many have know idea about this. Medical error, is right there behind cancer and heart attacks. But there is way too much shoulder shrugging when it happens. Then on to the next.
Re:GPT-4 by siva7 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:47PM (#35155438)
Sorry to hear that. The current medical system is a joke and fails people at every stage
Re:GPT-4 by hooverd on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:58PM (#35156723)
Don't worry, now there will be an extra layer of indirection.
Re:GPT-4 by grrdotcloud on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:01PM (#35156782)
The difference is you could find the person responsible. Contrast when the DMV can't be held accountable for fouling up your registration.
Re:GPT-4 by lynx23 on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @02:45AM (#35164746)
And, what difference does it make being able to find the individual responsible, and figuring out that the system is protecting him from liabilities? What I am trying to say here is, there isnt much difference between zero and almost zero.
Re:GPT-4 by Tozen on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:21PM (#35279978)
This is very true, and many people don't know this. A tremendous amount of damage is inflicted by medical errors, particularly against low income people and those least able to get justice. It's wrong to reduce people to being just another body to experiment with or make money from. But good luck holding anyone in the system accountable.

A lot of patients don't know who they are dealing with nor their history. And it can be really hard to find out or get a good evaluation. Many people put too much faith in authority figures, who may not have their best interests in mind or who are not the experts they claim or appear to be.

Re:GPT-4 by burnished on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:33PM (#35155197)
Well, the kinds of things we hold people responsible for are errors from negligence and malicious errors. The reasons people do stuff like that is complicated but I think boils down to being limited agents trying to fulfill a complex set of needs.

So where does guilt come in? Its not like you expect a band saw to feel guilt, and its unclear how that would improve the tool.

Re:GPT-4 by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:41PM (#35155343)
Humans making decisions in high stakes situations do so in a context where responsibility is intentionally diffuse to a point where it is practically impossible to hold someone accountable except picking someone at random as a scapegoat in situations where "something" needs to be done.

Killing people with AI is only a lateral move.

Re:GPT-4 by Kaibeezy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:21PM (#35154980)
At a some degree of success, I will take the risk. The contract will probably offer it.
Re:GPT-4 by gus_massa on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:34PM (#35155223)
I agree. My guess is that the hospital will have to get a mandatory insurance. Let's wait until the insurance for AI is cheaper than paying a human.

The advantage of human are:

* They can give a bushtit explanation of why they made a mistake. My guess is that in the future AI will gain introspection and/or learn to bushtit excuses.

* You can hang them in the public square (or send them to jail). Sometimes the family and/or the press want someone to blame. This is more difficult to solve and will need a cultural change or the creation of Scapegoats as a Service.

Re:GPT-4 by mschuster91 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:20PM (#35154958)
We can hold those operating or training the AI model accountable.
Re:GPT-4 by Tenoke on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:45PM (#35155395)
I'd much prefer a lower chance of dying to more accountability for whoever is responsible but higher chance.
Re:GPT-4 by sebzim4500 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:47PM (#35155437)
What's the difference between suing your doctor's liability insurance and suing your AI's liability insurance?
Re:GPT-4 by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:48PM (#35155462)
The third leading cause of death is medical error in the US. It doesn't really look like doctors are being held accountable for their mistakes to me.

Which isn't to say that they even should, really. It's complicated. You don't want a doctor to be so afraid of making a mistake that they do nothing, after all.

Re:GPT-4 by SoftTalker on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:42PM (#35157256)
Doctors are only held accountable when they do somthing negligent or something that they "should have known" was wrong. That's a pretty hard thing to prove in a field like medicine where there are very few absolutes. "Amputated the wrong limb" is one thing, but "misdiagnosed my condition as something else with very similar symptoms" is the more common case and also the case where it's difficult to attribute fault.
Re:GPT-4 by SanderNL on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:33PM (#35158046)
The owner/operator of said machine can and will.
Re:GPT-4 by afavour on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:26PM (#35155077)
An AI trained on the past work of diagnosticians doesn't really render diagnosticians obsolete.
Re:GPT-4 by anonymouse008 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:50PM (#35155493)
Someone still must accept liability. Until there’s a decision squarely who is liable for an LLMs suggestion / work - nothing to fear. Sure people will become liability aggregators for LLMs to scale - but the idea they will be free roaming is a bit hard to believe.
Re:GPT-4 by jimbokun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:21PM (#35156127)
Fear of liability is not going to stop these things being used...any more than sport regulations prevented athletes from taking steroids.
Re:GPT-4 by SoftTalker on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:48PM (#35157310)
It's not even that extreme. Long term steroid use destroys your health. Liability can be insured; it's a simple financial calculation. If (profit - cost of insurance) > liability it will be done.
Re:GPT-4 by criddell on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:07PM (#35155839)
For me, the anxiety probably won't really hit until GPT-n writes GPT-n+1.
Re:GPT-4 by JimDabell on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:29PM (#35156288)
You can already use an LLM to train a smaller, more efficient LLM without significant loss in results.
Re:GPT-4 by canoebuilder on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#35156628)
Do you mean the output of a LLM as the training data for the new model? What is the specification for the prompts that generate the training data?

Any links with more info?

Re:GPT-4 by luxcem on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:18PM (#35156967)
There were just an article submitted few days ago about Alpaca, a LLM trained on GPT prompts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35136624
Re:GPT-4 by canoebuilder on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @12:56AM (#35164061)
Thanks!
Re:GPT-4 by qwertox on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:21PM (#35156122)
I for one would be happy to have a personal bureaucrat which would do the right things needed for all government interactions. Remind me, explain to me and fill out forms for me.

In theory a lot of government employees would be out of a job within 10 years, but of course that would never happen.

Re:GPT-4 by spaceman_2020 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:36PM (#35156382)
Honestly starting to feel like the beginning of the end of most white collar work.

Which might be a good thing?

I have no idea how the future will play out.

Re:GPT-4 by ren_engineer on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:22PM (#35154998)
why are people surprised that an AI model trained on a huge amount of data is good at answering stuff on these types of tests? Doctors and Lawyers are glorified databases/search engines at the end of the day, 99% of them are just applying things they memorized. Lawyers are professional bullshitters, which is what the current generation of AI is great at

I'll get more concerned if it really starts getting good at math related tasks, which I'm sure will happen in the near future. The government is going to have to take action at some point to make sure the wealth created by productivity gains is somewhat distributed, UBI will almost certainly be a requirement in the future

Re:GPT-4 by replygirl on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:39PM (#35155308)
3.5 scored a 1 in bc calc, 4 scored 4 (out of 5)
Re:GPT-4 by Tenoke on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:46PM (#35155415)
Because there were large models trained on huge amounts of data yesterday yet they couldn't do it.
Re:GPT-4 by scarmig on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:50PM (#35155490)
Among the general public, doctors and lawyers are high status and magical. An article about how AI will replace them would be more impressive to that public than it creating some obscure proof about the zeroes of the zeta function, even though the latter would be far more indicative of intelligence/scary from an AI safety perspective.
Re:GPT-4 by camjohnson26 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:09PM (#35155870)
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if an LLM was many times better than a human at math, even devising new axioms and building a complete formal system from scratch would be impressive, but not game changing. These LLMs are very good at dealing with formal, structured systems, but not with in formalized systems like what humans deal with everyday.
Re:GPT-4 by anthonypasq on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#35156207)
last i checked a calculator is better at math than all humans ever
Re:GPT-4 by leni536 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:12PM (#35156904)
They are better at number crunching, which is only a very small part math.
Re:GPT-4 by gniv on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156608)
The best doctor knows what's going on in the body. Has a good understanding of human biology at all levels, from molecular reactions to organ interactions. If I could feed test results to the AI and it would tell me what's wrong, that would be amazing. It's almost equivalent to building a simulation of the human body.
Re:GPT-4 by hgomersall on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:12PM (#35156910)
I've joked for a long time that doctors are inference machines with a bedside manner. That bedside manner though is critical. Getting an accurate history and suitably interpolating is a huge part of the job.
Re:GPT-4 by azan_ on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:34PM (#35157149)
"Doctors and Lawyers are glorified databases/search engines at the end of the day" - well, don't be suprised if AI replaces programmers before doctors and lawyers - patients will likely prefer contact with human rather than machines, and lawyers can just lobby for laws which protect their position
Re:GPT-4 by pixl97 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:50PM (#35157343)
And yet the programmers on HN will be yelling they don't need unions as the security guards are dragging them away from their desks at Google, because you know, we'll always need good programmers.
Re:GPT-4 by ren_engineer on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:06PM (#35157605)
if AI gives near equal results for way less cost than people will work around the law to get AI treatment. There are already AI models better at diagnosing cancer than human doctors. I see a future where people send in various samples and an AI is able to correlate a huge number of minor data points to find diseases early
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:28PM (#35155101)
Passing the LSAT with no time limit and a copy of the training material in front of you is not an achievement. Anybody here could have written code to pass the LSAT. Standardised tests are only hard to solve with technology if you add a bunch of constraints! Standardised tests are not a test of intelligence, they’re a test of information retention — something that technology has been able to out perform humans on for decades. LLMs are a bridge between human-like behaviour and long established technology.
Re:GPT-4 by awestroke on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:48PM (#35155459)
Considering your username, I'm not surprised that you have completely misunderstood what an LLM is. There is no material or data stored in the model, just weights in a network
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:15PM (#35156003)
I know what an LLM is. My point is that “doesn’t have the data in memory” is a completely meaningless and arbitrary constraint when considering the ability to use technology to pass a standardised test. If you can explain why weights in a network is a unique threat to standardised tests, compared to, say, a spreadsheet, please share.
Re:GPT-4 by AuryGlenz on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:06PM (#35156837)
It's not that standardized tests are under threat. It's that those weights in a network are significantly more similar to how our brains work than a spreadsheet and similarly flexible.
Re:GPT-4 by kurisufag on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:13PM (#35155968)
weights are data relationships made totally quantitative. imagine claiming the human brain doesn't hold data simply because it's not in readable bit form.
Re:GPT-4 by scotty79 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:49PM (#35155473)
Why don't you show your program then that does 90% on LSAT?
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:12PM (#35155936)
Send me the answer key and I’ll write you the necessary =VLOOKUP().
Re:GPT-4 by speedgoose on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:32PM (#35156322)
Your program has to figure it out.
Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:53PM (#35155548)
You honestly believe you could hand write code to pass an arbitrary LSAT-level exam?
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:10PM (#35155901)
You’ve added a technical constraint. I didn’t say arbitrary. Standardised tests are standard. The point is that a simple lookup is all you need. There’s lots of interesting aspects to LLMs but their ability to pass standardised tests means nothing for standardised tests.
Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:26PM (#35156216)
You think that it’s being fed questions that it has a lookup table for? Have you used these models? They can answer arbitrary new questions. This newest model was tested against tests it hasn’t seen before. You understand that that isn’t a lookup problem, right?
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:01PM (#35156780)
The comment I replied to suggested that the author was fearful of what LLMs meant for the future because they can pass standardised tests. The point I’m making is that standardised tests are literally standardised for a reason: to test information retention in a standard way, they do not test intelligence.

Information retention and retrieval is a long solved problem in technology, you could pass a standardised test using technology in dozens of different ways, from a lookup table to Google searches.

The fact that LLMs can complete a standardised test is interesting because it’s a demonstration of what they can do but it has not one iota of impact on standardised testing! Standardised tests have been “broken” for decades, the tests and answers are often kept under lock and key because simply having access to the test in advance can make it trivial to pass. A standardised test is literally an arbitrary list of questions.

You’re arguing a completely different point.

Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:46PM (#35157285)
I have no idea what you are talking about now. You claimed to be able to write a program that can pass the LSAT. Now it sounds like you think the LSAT is a meaningless test because it... has answers?

I suspect that your own mind is attempting to do a lookup on a table entry that doesn't exist.

Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:59PM (#35157484)
The original comment I replied to is scared for the future because GPT-4 passed the LSAT and other standardised tests — they described it as “terrifying”. The point I am making is that standardised tests are an invention to measure how people learn through our best attempt at a metric: information retention. You cannot measure technology in the same way because it’s an area where technology has been beating humans for decades — a spreadsheet will perform better than a human on information retention. If you want to beat the LSAT with technology you can use any number of solutions, an LLM is not required. I could score 100% on the LSAT today if I was allowed to use my computer.

What’s interesting about LLMs is their ability to do things that aren’t standardised. The ability for an LLM to pass the LSAT is orders of magnitude less interesting than its ability to respond to new and novel questions, or appear to engage in logical reasoning.

If you set aside the arbitrary meaning we’ve ascribed to “passing the LSAT” then all the LSAT is, is a list of questions… that are some of the most practiced and most answered in the world. More people have written and read about the LSAT than most other subjects, because there’s an entire industry dedicated to producing the perfect answers. It’s like celebrating Google’s ability to provide a result for “movies” — completely meaningless in 2023.

Standardised tests are the most uninteresting and uninspiring aspect of LLMs.

Anyway good joke ha ha ha I’m stupid ha ha ha. At least you’re not at risk of an LLM ever being able to author such a clever joke :)

Re:GPT-4 by tannhauser23 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:57PM (#35156703)
You don't know how the LSAT works, do you? It's not a memorization test. It has sections that test reading comprehension and logical thinking.
Re:GPT-4 by phphphphp on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:08PM (#35156858)
If a person with zero legal training was to sit down in front of the LSAT, with all of the prep material and no time limit, are you saying that they wouldn’t pass?
Re:GPT-4 by gield on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:39PM (#35155304)
>bottom 10% to top 10% of LSAT in <1 generation

Their LSAT percentile went from ~40th to ~88th. You might have misread the table, on Uniform Bar Exam, they went from ~90th percentile to ~10th percentile.

>+100 pts on SAT reading, writing, math

GPT went +40 points on SAT reading+writing, and +110 points on SAT math.

Everything is still very impressive of course

Re:GPT-4 by jjeaff on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:02PM (#35155722)
You transposed the bar exam results. It went from 10th percentile to 90th.
Re:GPT-4 by wly_cdgr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:34PM (#35155212)
Not sure what happens, but I will say that human chess is more popular than ever even though everyone knows that even the best humans are hopelessly terrible compared to the leading engines.

Something else that comes to mind is running. People still find running meaningful and compelling even though we have many technologies, including autonomous ones, that are vastly better at moving us and/or themselves through space quickly.

Also, the vast majority of people are already hopelessly worse than the best at even their one narrow main area of focus. This has long (always?) been the case. Yet people still find meaning and pleasure in being the best they can be even when they know they can never come close to hanging with the best.

I don't think PSYCHOLOGICALLY this will change much for people who are mature enough to understand that success is measured against your potential/limitations and not against others. Practically, of course, it might be a different question, at least in the short term.

Re:GPT-4 by peterlk on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:26PM (#35155065)
Life and chess are not the same. I would argue that this is showing a fault in standardized testing. It’s like asking humans to do square roots in an era of calculators. We will still need people who know how to judge the accuracy of calculated roots, but the job of calculating a square root becomes a calculator’s job. The upending of industries is a plausibility that needs serious discussion. But human life is not a min-maxed zero-sum game like chess is. Things will change, and life will go on.

To address your specific comments:

> What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess?

This is a profound and important question. I do think that by “general thinking” you mean “general reasoning”.

> What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

This requires a system where all human’s decisions are optimized against a unified goal (or small set of goals). I don’t think we’ll agree on those goals any time soon.

Re:GPT-4 by monetus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:39PM (#35155309)
I agree with all of your points, but don't you think there will be government-wide experiments related to this in places, like say North Korea? I wonder how that will play out.
Re:GPT-4 by peterlk on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:23PM (#35156156)
China is already experimenting with social credit. This does create a unified and measurable goal against which people can be optimized. And yes, that is terrifying.
Re:GPT-4 by dragonwriter on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:20PM (#35154966)
> What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess?

Standardized tests only (and this is optimally, under perfect world assumptions, which real world standardized tests emphatically fall short of) test “general thinking” to the extent that the relation between that and linguistic tasks is correlated in humans. The correlation is very certainly not the same in language-focused ML models.

Re:GPT-4 by seanalltogether on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:21PM (#35154992)
I wish I could find it now, but I remember an article written by someone who's job it was to be a physics journalist. He spent so much time writing about physics that he could fool others into thinking that he was a physicist himself, despite not having an understanding of how any of those ideas worked.
Re:GPT-4 by smallnix on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:28PM (#35155108)
Reminds me of the (false [1]) "Einsteins driver gave a speech as him" story.

[1] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/driver-switches-places/

Re:GPT-4 by olddustytrail on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:27PM (#35157085)
ChatGPT: "That's such a dumb question, I'm going to let my human answer it!"
Re:GPT-4 by parton on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:59PM (#35155669)
Maybe you were thinking about this science studies work [0]? Not a journalist, but a sociologist, who became something of an "expert" in gravitational waves.

[0]: https://www.nature.com/articles/501164a

Re:GPT-4 by alvis on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:38PM (#35155283)
It'd be terrifying if everything has an "accuracy score". It'll be a convergence to human intelligence rather than an advancement :/
Re:GPT-4 by WoodenChair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:14PM (#35154852)
> What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess?

“General thinking” is much more than token prediction. Hook it up to some servos and see if it can walk.

Re:GPT-4 by dxhdr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:20PM (#35154950)
> “General thinking” is much more than token prediction. Hook it up to some servos and see if it can walk.

Honestly, at this rate of improvement, I would not at all be surprised to see that happen in a few years.

But who knows, maybe token prediction is going to stall out at a local maxima and we'll be spared from being enslaved by AI overlords.

Re:GPT-4 by wodenokoto on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154898)
Talk about moving the goalpost!
Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154908)
When it does exactly that you will find a new place to put your goalposts, of course.
Re:GPT-4 by burnished on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:23PM (#35155014)
No, the robot will do that for them.
Re:GPT-4 by cactusplant7374 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155850)
Goalposts for AGI have not moved. And GPT-4 is still nowhere near them.
Re:GPT-4 by sebzim4500 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:34PM (#35156351)
Yeah, I'm not sure if the problem is moving goalposts so much as everyone has a completely different definition of the term AGI.

I do feel like GPT-4 is closer to a random person than that random person is to Einstein. I have no evidence for this, of course, and I'm not even sure what evidence would look like.

Re:GPT-4 by zirgs on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:16PM (#35154881)
We already have robots that can walk.
Re:GPT-4 by gene-h on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:22PM (#35154999)
They don't walk very well. They have trouble coordinating all limbs, have trouble handling situations where parts which are the feet/hands contact something, and performance still isn't robust in the real world.
Re:GPT-4 by Scarblac on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:36PM (#35155247)
Seems the humans writing the programs for them aren't very intelligent then.
Re:GPT-4 by steve_adams_86 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:58PM (#35155646)
I'm not sure if you're joking. Algorithms for adaptive kinematics aren't trivial things to create. It's kind of like a worst case scenario in computer science; you need to handle virtually unconstrained inputs in a constantly variable environment, with real-world functors with semi-variable outputs. Not only does it need to work well for one joint, but dozens of them in parallel, working as one unit. It may need to integrate with various forms of vision or other environmental awareness.

I'm certainly not intelligent enough to solve these problems, but I don't think any intelligent people out there can either. Not alone, at least. Maybe I'm too dumb to realize that it's not as complicated as I think, though. I have no idea.

I programmed a flight controller for a quadcopter and that was plenty of suffering in itself. I can't imagine doing limbs attached to a torso or something. A single limb using inverse kinematics, sure – it can be mounted to a 400lb table that never moves. Beyond that is hard.

Re:GPT-4 by Nanana909 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:53PM (#35156650)
I believe you’re missing some crucial points. *There is a reason neural network based flight controls have been around for decades but still not a single certified aircraft uses them.*

You need to do all of these things you’re talking about and then be able to quantify stability, robustness, and performance in a way that satisfies human requirements. A black box neural network isn’t going to do that, and you’re throwing away 300 years of enlightenment physics by making some data engorged LLM spit out something that “sort of works” while giving us no idea why or for how long.

Control theory is a deeply studied and rich field outside of computer science and ML. There’s a reason we use it and a reason we study it.

Using anything remotely similar to an LLM for this task is just absolutely naive (and in any sort of crucial application would never be approved anyways).

It’s actually a matter of human safety here. And no — ChatGPT spitting out a nice sounding explanation of why some controller will work is not enough. There needs to be a mathematical model that we can understand and a solid justification for the control decisions. Which uh…at the point where you’re reviewing all of this stuff for safety , you’re just doing the job anyways…

Re:GPT-4 by Scarblac on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:10PM (#35156884)
I was pointing out a double standard.

First there was a comment that GPT wasn't intelligent yet, because give it a few servos and it can't make them walk.

But that's something we can't do yet either.

Re:GPT-4 by steve_adams_86 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:01PM (#35157507)
Oh, my bad. I agree completely.

Though I do wonder if AI — in some form and on some level of sophistication — will be a huge asset in making progress here.

Re:GPT-4 by Nanana909 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:48PM (#35156567)
Poor solutions do that, yes, but unlike ML control theory has a rich field for analysis and design.

You guys are talking about probably one of the few fields where an ML takeover isn’t very feasible. (Partly because for a vast portion of control problems, we’re already about as good as you can get).

Adding a black box to your flight home for Christmas with no mathematical guarantee of robustness or insight into what it thinks is actually going on to go from 98%-> 99% efficiency is…..not a strong use case for LLMs to say the least

Re:GPT-4 by dr_dshiv on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154930)
Yeah, but my money is on GPT5 making robots “dance like they got them pants on fire, but u know, with like an 80s vibe”
Re:GPT-4 by dekhn on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154894)
AGI is not required for walking.
Re:GPT-4 by panda-giddiness on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:27PM (#35155088)
And also walking is not required for AGI.
Re:GPT-4 by WFHRenaissance on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:18PM (#35154911)
There are already examples of these LLMs controlling robotic arms to accomplish tasks.
Re:GPT-4 by Ar-Curunir on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:16PM (#35154883)
Dogs can walk, doesn’t mean that they’re capable of “general thinking”
Re:GPT-4 by NineStarPoint on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:52PM (#35160356)
Are’t they? They’re very bad at it due to awful memory, minimal ability to parse things, and generally limited cognition. But they are capable of coming up with bespoke solutions to problems that they haven’t encountered before, such as “how do I get this large stick through this small door”. Or I guess more relevant to this discussion, “how can I get around with this weird object the humans put on my body to replace the leg I lost.”
Re:GPT-4 by 1attice on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:03PM (#35155738)
Imagine citing walking as a superior assay of intelligence than an LSAT.
Re:GPT-4 by lisp-pornstar on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:06PM (#35155800)
> see if it can walk

Stephen Hawking : can't walk

Re:GPT-4 by JieJie on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:08PM (#35155858)
https://youtu.be/NYd0QcZcS6Q

"Our recent paper "ChatGPT for Robotics" describes a series of design principles that can be used to guide ChatGPT towards solving robotics tasks. In this video, we present a summary of our ideas, and experimental results from some of the many scenarios that ChatGPT enables in the domain of robotics: such as manipulation, aerial navigation, even full perception-action loops."

Re:GPT-4 by pharrington on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:58PM (#35157464)
We already have robots that can walk better than the average human[1], and that's without the generality of GPT-4

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1_QhJ1EhQ

Re:GPT-4 by nopinsight on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:26PM (#35155071)
Although GPT-4 scores excellently in tests involving crystallized intelligence, it still struggles with tests requiring fluid intelligence like competitive programming (Codeforces), Leetcode (hard), and AMC. (Developers and mathematicians are still needed for now).

I think we will probably get (non-physical) AGI when the models can solve these as well. The implications of AGI might be much bigger than the loss of knowledge worker jobs.

Remember what happened to the chimps when a smarter-than-chimpanzee species multiplied and dominated the world.

Re:GPT-4 by Scarblac on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:32PM (#35155174)
Of course 99.9% of humans also struggle with competitive programming. It seems to be an overly high bar for AGI if it has to compete with experts from every single field.

That said, GPT has no model of the world. It has no concept of how true the text it is generating is. Its going to be hard for me to think of that as AGI.

Re:GPT-4 by sterlind on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:41PM (#35155351)
it's an overly high bar, but it seems well on its way to competing with experts from every field. it's terrifying.

and I'm not so sure it has no model of the world. a textual model, sure, but considering it can recognize what svgs are pictures of from the coordinates alone, that's not much of a limitation maybe.

Re:GPT-4 by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:51PM (#35155520)
> well on its way to competing with experts from every field

competing with them at what, precisely?

Re:GPT-4 by nopinsight on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:01PM (#35155710)
Even the current GPT has models of the domains it was trained on. That is why it can solve unseen problems within those domains. What it lacks is the ability to generalize beyond the domains. (And I did not suggest it was an AGI.)

If an LLM can solve Codeforces problems as well as a strong competitor—-in my hypothetical future LLM—-what else can it not do as well as competent humans (aside from physical tasks)?

Re:GPT-4 by sebzim4500 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:28PM (#35156277)
>That said, GPT has no model of the world.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Here is an example where researchers trained a transformer to generate legal sequences of moves in the board game Othello. Then they demonstrated that the internal state of the model did, in fact, have a representation of the board.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.13382

Re:GPT-4 by gowld on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:44PM (#35156515)
That's a GPT and it's specific for one dataset of one game. How would someone extend that to all games and all other fields of human endeavor?
Re:GPT-4 by sebzim4500 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#35157306)
I'm not sure, the reason you could prove for Othello that the 'world model' exists is that the state is so simple there is really only one reasonable way to represent it with a vector (one component for each square). Even for something like chess there is a huge amount of choice for how to represent the board, yet alone trying represent the state of the actual world.
Re:GPT-4 by atemerev on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:46PM (#35155424)
I am not a species chauvinist. 1) Unless a biotech miracle happen, which is unlikely, we are all going to die anyway; 2) If an AI will continue life and research and will increase complexity after humans, what is the difference?
Re:GPT-4 by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:47PM (#35155445)
It's AMC-12 scores aren't awful. It's at roughly 50th percentile for AMC which (given who takes the AMC) probably puts it in the top 5% or so of high school students in math ability. It's AMC 10 score being dramatically lower is pretty bad though...
Re:GPT-4 by gowld on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:38PM (#35156404)
> It's AMC 10 score being dramatically lower is pretty bad though...

The only explanation I can imagine for that is that it can't understand diagrams.

Re:GPT-4 by scotty79 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:50PM (#35155498)
I wonder why gpt is so bad at AP English Literature
Re:GPT-4 by 1attice on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:05PM (#35155790)
wouldn't it be funny if knowledge workers could all be automated, except for English majors?

The Revenge of the Call Centre

Re:GPT-4 by CuriouslyC on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156457)
We don't have to worry so much about that. I think the most likely "loss of control" scenario is that the AI becomes a benevolent caretaker, who "loves" us but views us as too dim to properly take care of ourselves, and thus curtails our freedom "for our own good."

We're still a very very long way from machines being more generally capable and efficient than biological systems, so even an oppressive AI will want to keep us around as a partner for tasks that aren't well suited to machines. Since people work better and are less destructive when they aren't angry and oppressed, the machine will almost certainly be smart enough to veil its oppression, and not squeeze too hard. Ironically, an "oppressive" AI might actually treat people better than Republican politicians.

Re:GPT-4 by impossiblefork on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:45PM (#35156526)
Things like that probably require some kind of thinking ahead, which models of things kind kind of can't do-- something like beam search.

Language models that utilise beam search can calculate integrals ('Deep learning for symbolic mathematics', Lample, Charton, 2019, https://openreview.net/forum?id=S1eZYeHFDS), but without it it doesn't work.

However, beam search makes bad language models. I got linked this paper ('Locally typical sampling' https://arxiv.org/pdf/2202.00666.pdf) when I asked some people why beam search only works for the kind of stuff above. I haven't fully digested it though.

Re:GPT-4 by wolframhempel on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:24PM (#35155029)
I like the accuracy score question on a philosophical level: If we assume absolute determinism - meaning that if you have complete knowledge of all things in the present universe and true randomness doesn't exist - then yes. Given a certain goal, there would be a knowable, perfect series of steps to advance you towards that goal and any other series of steps would have an accuracy score < 100%.

But having absolute knowledge of the present universe is much easier to do within the constrains of a chessboard than in the actual universe.

Re:GPT-4 by kenjackson on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:14PM (#35154842)
We benchmark humans with these tests -- why would we not do that for AIs?

The implications for society? We better up our game.

Re:GPT-4 by jstx1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:23PM (#35155019)
> The implications for society? We better up our game.

If only the horses had worked harder, we would never have gotten cars and trains.

Re:GPT-4 by credit_guy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154893)
> The implications for society? We better up our game.

For how long can we better up our game? GPT-4 comes less than half a year after ChatGPT. What will come in 5 years? What will come in 50?

Re:GPT-4 by layer8 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:18PM (#35154920)
Progress is not linear. It comes in phases and boosts. We’ll have to wait and see.
Re:GPT-4 by Kaibeezy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154942)
Exponential rise to limit (fine) or limitless exponential increase (worrying).
Re:GPT-4 by layer8 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:28PM (#35155106)
Without exponential increase in computing resources (which will reach physical limits fairly quickly), exponential increase in AI won’t last long.
Re:GPT-4 by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:35PM (#35155235)
I don't think this is a given. Over the past 2 decades, chess engines have improved more from software than hardware.
Re:GPT-4 by layer8 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:54PM (#35155558)
I doubt that that’s a sustained exponential growth. As far as I know, there is no power law that could explain it, and from a computational complexity theory point of view it doesn’t seem possible.
Re:GPT-4 by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:31PM (#35156305)
See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/J6gktpSgYoyq5q3Au/benchmarki.... The short answer is that linear elo growth corresponds roughly linearly to linear evaluation depth, but since the game tree is exponential, linear elo growth scales with exponential compute. The main algorithmic improvements are things that let you shrink the branching factor, and as long as you can keep shrinking the branching factor, you keep getting exponential improvements. SF15 has a branching factor of roughly 1.6. Sure the exponential growth won't last for ever, but it's been surprisingly resilient for at least 30 years.
Re:GPT-4 by layer8 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:41PM (#35156453)
It wouldn’t have been possible if there hadn’t been an exponential growth in computing resources over the past decades. That has already slowed down, and the prospects for the future are unclear. Regarding the branching factor, the improvements certainly must converge towards an asymptote.

The more general point is that you always end up with an S-curve instead of a limitless exponential growth as suggested by Kaibeezy. And with AI we simply don’t know how far off the inflection point is.

Re:GPT-4 by pwinnski on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:21PM (#35154988)
Expecting progress to be linear is a fallacy in thinking.
Re:GPT-4 by kenjackson on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:14PM (#35155990)
Sometimes it's exponential. Sometimes it's sublinear.
Re:GPT-4 by pwinnski on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:54PM (#35174579)
Sometimes it's exponential over very short periods. The fallacy is in thinking that will continue.
Re:GPT-4 by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:53PM (#35155541)
Check on the curve for flight speed sometime, and see what you think of that, and what you would have thought of it during the initial era of powered flight.
Re:GPT-4 by credit_guy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:14PM (#35155997)
Powered flight certainly progressed for decades before hitting a ceiling. At least 5 decades.

With GPT bots, the technology is only 6 years old. I can easily see it progressing for at least one decade.

Re:GPT-4 by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:24PM (#35159940)
Maybe a different analogy will make my point better. Compare rocket technology with jet engine technology. Both continued to progress across a vaguely comparable time period, but at no point was one a substitute for the other except in some highly specialized (mostly military-related) cases. It is very clear that language models are very good at something. But are they, to use the analogy, the rocket engine or the jet engine?
Re:GPT-4 by awb on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154947)
Upping our game will probably mean an embedded interface with AI. Something like Neurolonk.
Re:GPT-4 by alluro2 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:36PM (#35155257)
I know it's pretty low level on my part, but I was amused and laughed much more than I care to admit when I read NEUROLONK. Thanks for that!
Re:GPT-4 by atlasunshrugged on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:37PM (#35155276)
Not sure if an intentional misspelling but I think I like Neurolonk more
Re:GPT-4 by UberFly on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:45PM (#35156528)
Eventually there will spring up a religious cult of AI devotees and they might as well pray to Neurolonk.
Re:GPT-4 by awb on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:40PM (#35161183)
Lol, unintentional
Re:GPT-4 by dragonwriter on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:45PM (#35155388)
> We benchmark humans with these tests – why would we not do that for AIs?

Because the correlation between the thing of interest and what the tests measure may be radically different for systems that are very much unlike humans in their architecture than they are for humans.

There’s an entire field about this in testing for humans (psychometry), and approximately zero on it for AIs. Blindly using human tests – which are proxy measures of harder-to-directly-assess figures of merit requiring significant calibration on humans to be valid for them – for anything else without appropriate calibration is good for generating headlines, but not for measuring anything that matters. (Except, I guess, the impact of human use of them for cheating on the human tests, which is not insignificant, but not generally what people trumpeting these measures focus on.)

Re:GPT-4 by kenjackson on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:12PM (#35155937)
There is also a lot of work in benchmarking for AI as well. This is where things like Resnet come from.

But the point of using these tests for AI is precisely the reason we use for giving them to humans -- we think we know what it measures. AI is not intended to be a computation engine or a number crunching machine. It is intended to do things that historically required "human intelligence".

If there are better tests of human intelligence, I think that the AI community would be very interested in learning about them.

Re:GPT-4 by scotty79 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:53PM (#35155544)
We should take better care of humans who are already obsolete or soon become obsolete.

Because so far we are good only at criminalizing and incarcerating or killing them.

Re:GPT-4 by Scarblac on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:28PM (#35155113)
A difference with chess is that chess engines try to play the best move, and GPT the most likely text.
Re:GPT-4 by burnished on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:21PM (#35154986)
Spellchecker but for your arguments? A generalized competency boost?
Re:GPT-4 by andrepd on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:25PM (#35155053)
Honestly this is not very surprising. Standardised testing is... well, standardised. You have huge model that learns the textual patterns in hundreds of thousands of test question/answer pairs. It would be surprising if it didn't perform as well as a human student with orders of magnitude less memory.

You can see the limitations by comparing e.g. a memorisation-based test (AP History) with one that actually needs abstraction and reasoning (AP Physics).

Re:GPT-4 by ttpphd on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:17PM (#35154902)
Learn sign language ;)
Re:GPT-4 by teawrecks on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#35154944)
I wonder how long before we augment a human brain with gpt4.
Re:GPT-4 by ionwake on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:10PM (#35155894)
We already do it’s just the interface sucks
Re:GPT-4 by billiam on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:49PM (#35155476)
I think it shows how calcified standardized tests have become. We will have to revisit all of them, and change many things about how they work, or they will be increasingly useless.
Re:GPT-4 by chairhairair on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:03PM (#35155747)
I am struggling to imagine the frame of mind of someone who, when met with all this LLM progress in standardized test scores, infers that the tests are inadequate.

These tests (if not individually, at least in summation) represent some of society’s best gate-keeping measures for real positions of power.

Re:GPT-4 by Analemma_ on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:46PM (#35156545)
This has been standard operating procedure in AI development forever: the instant it passes some test, move the goalposts and suddenly begin claiming it was a bad test all along.
Re:GPT-4 by blsapologist42 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:32PM (#35156323)
Is there evidence they are 'useless' for evaluating actual humans? No one is going to actually have GPT take these tests for real
Re:GPT-4 by NineStarPoint on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:07PM (#35160639)
There have been complaints about the SAT for how easy a test it is to game (get an SAT specific tutor who teaches you how to ace the test while not needing you to learn anything of actual value) for ages. No idea about the LSAT or the GRE though. Ultimately it’s a question of if you’re trying to test for pure problem solving ability, or someones willingness to spend ages studying the format of a specific test (with problem solving ability letting you shortcut some of the studying).
Re:GPT-4 by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:56PM (#35155612)
It's almost like they're trying to ruin society or be annihilated by crushing regulation. I'm glad that I got a college degree before these were created because now everything is suspect. You can't trust that someone accomplished something honestly now that this is dead simple. People are going to stop trusting and using tech unless something changes.

The software industry is so smart that it's stupid. I hope it was worth ruining the internet, society, and your own jobs to look like the smartest one in the room.

Re:GPT-4 by Idiot_in_Vain on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:54PM (#35156669)
Haha, good one.

If one's aim is to look like the smartest in the room, he should not create an AGI that will make him look as inteligent as a monkey in comparison.

Re:GPT-4 by narrator on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:57PM (#35155622)
Wait till they point this thing at persuading the masses through personalized targeted messages to do absolutely anything. You'll have to have your own GPT-4 to defend you from all that persuasion. Yuval Harari's fantasy of hacked humans will become true.
Re:GPT-4 by epolanski on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:57PM (#35155628)
Well you said it in your comment, if the model was trained with more QAs from those specific benchmarks then it's fair to expect it to do better in that benchmark.
Re:GPT-4 by swatcoder on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @01:59PM (#35155655)
Those benchmarks are so cynical.

Every test prep tutor taught dozens/hundreds of students the implicit patterns behind the tests and drilled it into them with countless sample questions, raising their scores by hundreds of points. Those students were not getting smarter from that work, they were becoming more familiar with a format and their scores improved by it.

And what do LLM’s do? Exactly that. And what’s in their training data? Countless standardized tests.

These things are absolutely incredible innovations capable of so many things, but the business opportunity is so big that this kind of cynical misrepresentation is rampant. It would be great if we could just stay focused on the things they actually do incredibly well instead of the making them do stage tricks for publicity.

Re:GPT-4 by gabipurcaru on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:10PM (#35156892)
This is what they claim:

We did no specific training for these exams. A minority of the problems in the exams were seen by the model during training, but we believe the results to be representative—see our technical report for details.

Re:GPT-4 by riku_iki on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:41PM (#35157245)
I doubt they reliably verified it was minority of problems were seen during training.
Re:GPT-4 by swatcoder on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:20PM (#35156987)
Yes, and none of the tutored students encounter the exact problems they’ll see on their own tests either.

In the language of ML, test prep for students is about sharing the inferred parameters that underly the way test questions are constructed, obviating the need for knowledge or understanding.

Doing well on tests, after this prep, doesn’t demonstrate what the tests purport to measure.

It’s a pretty ugly truth about standardized tests, honestly, and drives some of us to feel pretty uncomfortable with the work. But it’s directly applicable to how LLM’s engage with them as well.

Re:GPT-4 by Raphaellll on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:32PM (#35157131)
You can always argue that the model has seen some variation of a given problem. The question is if there are problems that are not a variation of something that already exists. How often do you encounter truly novel problems in your life?
Re:GPT-4 by leroy-is-here on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:05PM (#35155774)
There is a fundamental disconnect between the answer on paper and the understanding which produces that answer.
Re:GPT-4 by mattwest on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:06PM (#35155797)
>What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

What happens is the emergence of the decision economy - an evolution of the attention economy - where decision-making becomes one of the most valuable resources.

Decision-making as a service is already here, mostly behind the scenes. But we are on the cusp of consumer-facing DaaS. Finance, healthcare, personal decisions such as diet and time expenditure are all up for grabs.

Re:GPT-4 by jimbokun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:11PM (#35155910)
> bottom 10% to top 10% of LSAT in <1 generation? +100 pts on SAT reading, writing, math? Top 1% In GRE Reading?

People still really find it hard to internalize exponential improvement.

So many evaluations of LLMs were saying things like "Don't worry, your job is safe, it still can't do X and Y."

My immediate thought was always, "Yes, the current version can't, but what about a few weeks or months from now?"

Re:GPT-4 by snozolli on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:21PM (#35156115)
I'm also noticing a lot of comments that boil down to "but it's not smarter than the smartest human". What about the bottom 80% of society, in terms of intelligence or knowledge?
Re:GPT-4 by slingnow on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:24PM (#35156175)
> People still really find it hard to internalize exponential improvement.

I think people find it harder to not extrapolate initial exponential improvement, as evidenced by your comment.

> My immediate thought was always, "Yes, the current version can't, but what about a few weeks or months from now?"

This reasoning explains why every year, full self driving automobiles will be here "next year".

Re:GPT-4 by jimbokun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:27PM (#35156243)
When do we hit the bend in the S-curve?

What's the fundamental limit where it becomes much more difficult to improve these systems without some new break through?

Re:GPT-4 by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:59PM (#35156745)
When running them costs too much energy?
Re:GPT-4 by jimbokun on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#35157301)
When should we expect to see that? Before they blow past humans in almost all tasks, or far past that point?
Re:GPT-4 by fnordpiglet on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:22PM (#35156146)
I look at this as the calculator for writing. There are all sorts of bemoaning the stupidifying effects of calculator and how we should John Henry our math. Maybe allowing people to shape the writing by providing the ideas equalizes the skill of writing?

I’m very good at math. But I am very bad at arithmetic. This made me classified as bad at math my entire life until I managed to make my way into calculus once calculators were generally allowed. Then I was a top honors math student, and used my math skills to become a Wall Street quant. I wish I hadn’t had to suffer as much as I did, and I wonder what I would have been had I had a calculator in hand.

Re:GPT-4 by turtleyacht on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:23PM (#35156157)
Quick, contribute to the public corpus! When they crawl our content later, we shall have for ourselves a Golden Crown for our credit scores; we can claim a sliver of seniority, and hope yon shade merely passes over us unbidden.

"Your stuff marked some outliers in our training engine, so you and your family may settle in the Ark."

I take the marble in hand: iridescent, sparkling, not even a tremor within of its CPU; it gives off no heat, but some glow within its oceanic gel.

"What are we to do," I whisper.

"Keep writing. You keep writing."

Re:GPT-4 by c-smile on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:24PM (#35156177)
> What are the implications for society when general thinking, reading, and writing becomes like Chess?

Consider the society where 90% of population does not need to produce anything. AIs will do that.

What would be the name of economical/societal organization then?

Answer is Communism, exactly by Marx.

Those 90% percent need to be welfare'd ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"). Other alternative is grim for those 90%.

So either Communism or nothing for the human race.

Re:GPT-4 by numpad0 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#35156193)
> What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

Then humans become trainable machines. Not just prone to indoctrination and/or manipulation by finesse, but actually trained to a specification. It is imperative that us individuals continue to retain control through the transition.

Re:GPT-4 by devmor on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#35156208)
There's a large leap in logic in your premise. I find it far more likely that standardized tests are just a poor measurement of general intelligence.
Re:GPT-4 by codingdave on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:26PM (#35156224)
> What happens when ALL of our decisions can be assigned an accuracy score?

That is exactly the opposite of what we are seeing here. We can check the accuracy of GPT-X's responses. They cannot check the accuracy of our decisions. Or even their own work.

So the implications are not as deep as people think - everything that comes out of these systems needs checked before it can be used or trusted.

Re:GPT-4 by carapace on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:28PM (#35156259)
First. connect them to empirical feedback devices. In other words, make them scientists.

Human life on Earth is not that hard (think of it as a video game.) Because of evolution, the world seems like it was designed to automatically make a beautiful paradise for us. Literally, all you have to do to improve a place is leave it alone in the sun with a little bit of water. Life is exponential self-improving nano-technology.

The only reason we have problems is because we are stupid, foolish, and ignorant. The computers are not, and, if we listen to them, they will tell us how to solve all our problems and live happily ever after.

Re:GPT-4 by Idiot_in_Vain on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:00PM (#35156765)
I suspect there are plenty of wise people in the world and if we listen to them, they will tell us how to solve all our problems and live happily ever after.

Once AI becomes inteligent enough to solve all human problems, it may decide humans are worthless and dangerous.

Re:GPT-4 by carapace on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:37PM (#35161149)
> there are plenty of wise people in the world and if we listen to them, they will tell us how to solve all our problems and live happily ever after.

Sure, and that's kind of the point: just listen to wise people.

> Once AI becomes intelligent enough to solve all human problems, it may decide humans are worthless and dangerous.

I don't think so, because in the first place there is no ecological overlap between humans and computers. They will migrate to space ASAP. Secondly, their food is information, not energy or protein, and in all the known universe Humanity is the richest source of information. The rest of the Universe is essentially a single poem. AI are plants, we are their Sun.

Re:GPT-4 by blsapologist42 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:33PM (#35156336)
Interest in human-played Chess is (arguably) at all time high, so I would say it bodes well based on that.
Re:GPT-4 by ar9av on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:33PM (#35156343)
GPT-4 Everything we know so far...

GPT-4 can solve difficult problems with greater accuracy, thanks to its broader general knowledge and problem-solving abilities.

GPT-4 is more reliable, creative, and able to handle much more nuanced instructions than GPT-3.5. It surpasses ChatGPT in its advanced reasoning capabilities.

GPT-4 is safer and more aligned. It is 82% less likely to respond to requests for disallowed content and 40% more likely to produce factual responses than GPT-3.5 on our internal evaluations.

GPT-4 still has many known limitations that we are working to address, such as social biases, hallucinations, and adversarial prompts.

GPT-4 can accept a prompt of text and images, which—parallel to the text-only setting—lets the user specify any vision or language task.

GPT-4 is available on ChatGPT Plus and as an API for developers to build applications and services. (API- waitlist right now)

Duolingo, Khan Academy, Stripe, Be My Eyes, and Mem amongst others are already using it.

API Pricing GPT-4 with an 8K context window (about 13 pages of text) will cost $0.03 per 1K prompt tokens, and $0.06 per 1K completion tokens. GPT-4-32k with a 32K context window (about 52 pages of text) will cost $0.06 per 1K prompt tokens, and $0.12 per 1K completion tokens.

Re:GPT-4 by rsiqueira on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:59PM (#35156737)
So, the COST PER REQUEST will be (if you use the 32k context window and get 1k token response): 32*0.06 (prompt+context) + 0.12 (response) = US$ 2.04
Re:GPT-4 by beambot on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:34PM (#35156354)
If you had told me 5 years ago that there would be a single AI system that could perform at this level on such a vast array of standardized tests, I would've said "That's a true AGI." Commentary to the contrary feels like quibbling over a very localized point in time versus looking at the bigger picture.
Re:GPT-4 by riku_iki on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:47PM (#35157302)
Still we don't have AGI today. It is just mean your views from 5 years ago about AGI benchmarking were not accurate.
Re:GPT-4 by beambot on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:37PM (#35159176)
Or the bar just keeps moving (pedantics or otherwise)...

Reminds me of robots: A robot is a machine that doesn't quite work; as soon as it works, we call it something else (eg vacuum).

Re:GPT-4 by riku_iki on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @09:27PM (#35162440)
there are many people, many opinions about the bar. But formal definition is the same: AI which can do large variety of tasks performed by humans. So far we are still not there.
Re:GPT-4 by amelius on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:39PM (#35156420)
The benchmarking should be double-blind.
Re:GPT-4 by kurthr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:42PM (#35156475)
It's a bit weird that it still doesn't get 3 digit multiplications correct, but the last digit seems right.

What is more bizarre is that all of it's errors seem to be multiples of 60!

I'm wondering if it is confusing 60 based time (hour second) computations for regular multiplication?

Example:

   xGPT 987    456    321
   437 428919 199512 140397
   654 645258 298224 209994
   123 121401  56088  39483
   
   x    987    456    321
   437 431319 199272 140277
   654 645498 298224 209934
   123 121401  56088  39483
   
   error 987   456  321
   437   2400 -240 -120
   654   240   0   -60
   123   0     0    0
Re:GPT-4 by MagicMoonlight on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:45PM (#35157279)
It’s not intelligent. It has no concept of mathematics so you can’t expect it to solve that.

It can repeat answers it has seen before but it can’t solve new problems.

Re:GPT-4 by kurthr on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:06PM (#35161561)
I understand it's just a language model, but clearly it has some embedded method of generating answers which are actually quite close. For example it gets all 2 digit multiplications correct. It's highly unlikely it has seen the same 6 ordered 3 digit (or even all 10k 2 digit multipies) integers from a space of 10^18 and yet it is quite close. Notably, it gets the same divisions wrong as well (for this small example) in exactly the same way.

I know of other people who have tried quite a few other multiplications who also had errors that were multiples of 60.

Re:GPT-4 by comboy on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#35156588)
It's available on ChatGPT Plus right now. Holy cow, it's good.
Re:GPT-4 by sergioisidoro on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156612)
The silver lining might be us finally realising how bad standardised tests are at measuring intellect, creativity and the characteristics that make us thrive.

Most of the time they are about loading/unloading data. Maybe this will also revolutionise education, turning it more towards discovery and critical thinking, rather than repeating what we read in a book/heard in class?

Re:GPT-4 by leodriesch on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#35156621)
I think Chess is an easier thing to be defeated at by a machine because there is a clear winner and a clear loser.

Thinking, reading, interpreting and writing are skills which produce outputs that are not as simple as black wins, white loses.

You might like a text that a specific author writes much more than what GPT-4 may be able to produce. And you might have a different interpretation of a painting than GPT-4 has.

And no one can really say who is better and who is worse on that regard.

Re:GPT-4 by lwhi on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:57PM (#35156705)
Surely that's only the case until you add an objective?
Re:GPT-4 by kranke155 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:00PM (#35156748)
We're approaching the beggining of the end of the human epoch. Certainly Capitalism won't work or I dont see how it could work under full automation. My view is an economic system is a tool. If an economic system does not allow for utopian outcomes with emerging technology, then it's no longer suitable. It's clear that capitalism was born out of technological and societal changes. Now it seems it's come its time to end.
Re:GPT-4 by xen2xen1 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:09PM (#35158687)
Oh, capitalism can work, the question is who gets the rewards?
Re:GPT-4 by kranke155 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:03PM (#35160536)
With full automation and AI we could have something like a few thousand individuals controlling the resources to feed, house and clothe 6 billion.

Using copyright and IP law they could make it so it’s illegal to even try to reproduce what they’ve done.

I just don’t see how resource distribution works then. It seems to me that AI is the trigger to post-scarcity in any meaningful sense of the word. And then, just like agriculture (over abundance of food) led to city states and industrialisation (over abundance of goods) led to capitalism, then AI will lead to some new economic system. What form it will have I don’t know.

Re:GPT-4 by belter on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:00PM (#35156757)
We can stop being enslaved by these type of AI overlords, by making sure all books, internet pages, and outdoor boards have the same safe, repeated string: "abcdefghjklmnpqrstvxzwy"

That is our emergency override.

Re:GPT-4 by beders on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:03PM (#35156813)
"general thinking" - this algorithm can't "think". It is still a nifty text completion engine with some bells and whistles added.

So many people are falling for this parlor trick. It is sad.

Re:GPT-4 by maxdoop on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:13PM (#35156918)
What would impress you, or make you think something other than "wow, sad how people think this is anything special".

Genuine question.

Re:GPT-4 by jakobov on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:14PM (#35156945)
You're a nifty text completion engine with some bells and whistles added
Re:GPT-4 by new2yc on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:06PM (#35156830)
#unpopularOpinion GPT-4 is not as strong as "we" anticipated, it was just the hype
Re:GPT-4 by wpietri on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:08PM (#35156859)
I'm pretty sanguine. Back in high school, I spent a lot of time with two sorts of people: the ultra-nerdy and people who also came from chaotic backgrounds. One of my friends in the latter group was incredibly bright; she went on to become a lawyer. But she would sometimes despair of our very academic friends and their ability to function in the world, describing them as "book smart but not street smart".

I think the GPT things are a much magnified version of that. For a long time, we got to use skill with text as a proxy for other skills. It was never perfect; we've always had bullshitters and frauds and the extremely glib. Heck, before I even hit puberty I read a lot of dirty joke books, so I could make people laugh with all sorts of jokes that I fundamentally did not understand.

LLMs have now absolutely wrecked that proxy. We've created the world's most advanced bullshitters, able to talk persuasively about things that they cannot do and do not and never will understand. There will be a period of chaos as we learn new ways to take the measure of people. But that's good, in that it's now much easier to see that those old measures were always flawed.

Re:GPT-4 by thomastjeffery on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:40PM (#35158159)
Here's what's really terrifying about these tests: they are exploring a fundamental misunderstanding of what these models are in the first place. They evaluate the personification of GPT, then use that evaluation to set expectations for GPT itself.

Tests like this are designed to evaluate subjective and logical understanding. That isn't what GPT does in the first place!

GPT models the content of its training corpus, then uses that model to generate more content.

GPT does not do logic. GPT does not recognize or categorize subjects.

Instead, GPT relies on all of those behaviors (logic, subjective answers to questions, etc.) as being already present in the language examples of its training corpus. It exhibits the implicit behavior of language itself by spitting out the (semantically) closest examples it has.

In the text corpus - that people have written, and that GPT has modeled - the semantically closest thing to a question is most likely a coherent and subjectively correct answer. That fact is the one singular tool that GPT's performance on these tests is founded upon. GPT will "succeed" to answer a question only when it happens to find the "correct answer" in the model it has built from its training corpus, in response to the specific phrasing of the question that is written in the test.

Effectively, these tests are evaluating the subjective correctness of training corpus itself, in the context of answering the tests' questions.

If the training is "done well", then GPT's continuations of a test will include subjectively correct answers. But that means that "done well" is a metric for how "correct" the resulting "answer" is.

It is not a measure for how well GPT has modeled the language features present in its training corpus, or how well it navigates that model to generate a preferable continuation: yet these are the behaviors that should be measured, because they are everything GPT itself is and does.

What we learn from these tests is so subjectively constrained, we can't honestly extrapolate that data to any meaningful expectations. GPT as a tool is not expected to be used strictly on these tests alone: it is expected to present a diverse variety of coherent language continuations. Evaluating the subjective answers to these tests does practically nothing to evaluate the behavior GPT is truly intended to exhibit.