Yeah, I sleep way better if I go to bed totally sober. Generally caffeine seems to be ok if I stop after 3pm or so.

Yep, as I get into my 30s I notice alcohol consumption drastically affects my sleep quality and time to fall asleep.

I've also cut out coffee and that has helped my sinuses/upper throat a lot in the morning which were being irritated. I drink some varieties of tea instead.

That's a good list (though I personally find it impossible to nap during the day). I'd add one thing: reduce stress.

I‘m intrigued by the midday nap, because I think I remember reading that daytime naps worsen night sleep. I do like naps though, and find them refreshing. Have you found research that supports this?

The primary benefit from mid-day naps is that they simply help you relax and get some rest. You don't want them to be long, just refreshing. This is well known in athletics where most major athletes take naps as a matter of recovery and to improve their sleep quality. Presumably, feeling relaxed and rested when you go to sleep helps you get some deeper sleep and improve sleep quality.

Naps are terrible sleep hygiene. Any deviation from a regular set sleep schedule is bad hygiene. Better to get less sleep than to nap and disturb the sleep schedule. Many people develop insomnia this way, especially shift workers.

It’s almost like we are not some robots with scheduled downtimes - physiology is much more complicated than to have such a mathematical truths. The only true thing we can conclude is always: this factor might correspond to this effect (and sometimes may even say that it is not only correlation)

The siesta is natural and is different from the naps taken from shift workers that are likely either interrupting night time sleep or are shifting their circadian rythm so that their "biological night" is in the day. Same thing for the "biological day" (it will be put at night) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siesta?wprov=sfla1

AFAIR was only the case if nap was longer than ~20 min? I don't remember if this was a consistent thing, I doubt it though as this stuff is inherently individual. Experimentation is the only way with sleep optimization..

It does not worsen night sleep, this is a misconception. It is better than nothing but often not as good as regular sleep since you often does not goes through a full cycle.

I recommend to read https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping The key takeaways is that naps won't affect night time sleep much if it's timed well. I also don't recommend stopping them artificially (I've heard the "keep them short" advice a lot), naps are usually short if you aren't sleep deprived and time it well.

Similar for me.

I'll add that I take a small magnesium supplement mid to late afternoon as well which helps me relax and if dreams are any indication of deeper sleep I have many more memorable dreams when I'm taking magnesium.

Dreams are an indication of REM sleep, but improvement in REM may be a general indication that you're getting overall better sleep, including deep sleep.

I 100% shill for magnesium when I can, and sleep is a huge reason in my experience. I was recommended it by others for sleep, and I have got a lot of people started. Within a few days our sleep is just so much better, including deeper dreams. I do 100mg lysinate glycinate. My brand's bottle recommends two per serving, but one has worked great. I take it right before bed and have never looked back.

What form of magnesium?

Magnesium glycinate is typically recommended, but any form that doesn't upset your stomach is probably good.

Magnesium L-Threonate (a.k.a. magtein) supposedly crosses the blood-brain barrier better than any other form of magnesium.

I've read that Magnesium L-Threonate is better taken in the morning to help your brain function better during the day. So, I take this in the morning and Mg glycinate at night.

I currently use magnesium oxide in a tablet form (I use half a tablet, ~125mg). I have previously used magnesium glycinate but I don't remember what dose I used of that.

I'll add, the mag oxide always prevents leg cramps when I take a full tablet (250mg) when I am working outside all day (and staying hydrated).

ETA: In my experience magnesium citrate is the one mostly likely to cause diarrhea though they all can.

I use a powdered drink called 'Calm'. It's got a bit of a berry flavor to it. Start with a small amount though or you'll be shitting your pants. There are a lot of studies showing magnesium levels are far too low in people anyway so it's a good idea to supplement it.

I also take Magnesium and swear by it. I also suspect I have some underlying kidney issues retaining many electrolytes and started taking a potassium with the magnesium at bedtime and it has transformed my sleep into baby-land. I sleep so hard now and when I wake up, I have no problem getting right back to sleep. I feel so refreshed the next day it is honestly shocking to me. I have always said that before I started taking both that I felt like I was on a one-way track to dementia. That is just how I felt. Very anecdotal, but I believe it in my bones.

How much of each are you taking? Are you taking any blood pressure medications?

No blood pressure meds.

I take about 150MG of magnesium and 100mg of potassium before bed. The magnesium is Chloride, but in liquid form and causes no laxative effect (but tastes terrible!). It is a product called ReMag. I am sure other forms will work just as well. The potassium is Gluconate as it is PH neutral. Potassium Citrate and Chloride would work just as well. I just get the Gluconate from Walmart as it is cheap and effective.

Magnesium makes it worse for me because you have to pee out a bunch of minerals.

Its not so straightforward. Caffeine consumption has been shown to reduce the chance of dementia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7836063/

1. Can't be sure that the effect of caffeine is more worth it than the possible impact on sleep. Better sleep probably has a wider range of benefits compared to caffeine.

2. Might not have to be one or the other - just make sure caffeine consumption is very early in the day

The title of the study is Associations Between Caffeine Consumption, Cognitive Decline, and Dementia and the conclusions state:

    This review suggests that caffeine consumption [...] may reduce the risk of dementia 

So the title talks about an association and the conclusion talks about causation.

I think I have an idea of how they measure an association, but how do they determine if there's any causation?

All these studies seem like cope.

You drink coffee because it makes you do more things at work / you are a slob without it because of addiction. You are not drinking it because it might make you better in bed or have less dementia in 50 years.

On the other hand we all need to sleep so doing it properly is a net positive

Caffeine is really not unhealthy. It's one of the most studied supplements ever. If you drink one cup of coffee before noon you will be perfectly fine.

>if you drink one cup

If you only shoot heroin once a week you will be perfectly fine

How many people resist the urge and only shoot heroin once a week?

We are humans, not perfectly diligent robots.

The first thing you say to a person with eating disorders is to throw all the junk food from their home. It’s close to impossible to resist even the “simple” temptation of food.

It’s much easier for a person to never start drinking coffee in the morning to “wake up” than starting and then quitting

Caffeine is not heroin. Caffeine has proven benefits.

Given your entire comment is one massive strawman argument I will ignore the rest of it.

> Caffeine is not heroin. Caffeine has proven benefits.

Heroin has proven benefits, this is why they give it to you at the hospital.

Given your entire comment is a massive lie I will ignore the rest of your replies

Ah yes, heroin and caffeine are equivalent, that's why we see all those caffeine addicts lining the streets of San Francisco looking for their next fix.

If you want to have an honest discussion, stop using these terrible analogies and bring actual scientific evidence.

This mentality of finding these shallow similarities and drawing these insane conclusions indicates that someone has very low intelligence.

This is your "deep" thought process

1. Caffeine is a drug

2. Heroin is also a drug

3. Caffeine can have negative effects on people when used in excess

4. Heroin can also have negative effects on people when used in excess!

ergo, caffeine is as bad as heroin

> ergo, caffeine is as bad as heroin

Never said this.

Perhaps if you didn’t “ignore” the rest of my comment you would have understood the point :)

There's a Starbucks in town whose unfortunate positioning has led to a great increase in wrecks (it's just past a hill, on a fairly busy road with speed limit of 40mph, and it doesn't have enough space for a large drive thru so cars are backed into the road).

Actually, I have to side with the original commenter on this. A great deal of today's public health issues in the first world stem directly or indirectly from people being unable to properly moderate use of a good thing. That's why I switched to decaf - I'd have to drink 10 times the amount of coffee I normally do to get an equivalent dose.

Decaf has its own issues. Read up on the residues left in coffee after it’s been through the decaf process.

I just turn off coffee machine at noon and that is it. How hard can it be for you?

>How hard can it be for you?

maybe ask the 100 years of scientific publications about human behavior and addiction?

There are different intensities of addiction. Heroin addiction is not comparable to caffeine. And we each respond differently to addictive substances.

You are constructing very weird strawman here. Me and a lot of my friends have beer in the fridge or some stronger spirit on the shelf and yet they don't get drunk first thing in the morning before work. Similarly I don't observe them gulping liters of coffee at 10 pm. There are always people who have harder time moderating their addictions, but absolute majority seem to be able to control their caffeine consumption just fine.

> absolute majority seem to be able to control their caffeine consumption just fine.

According to whom? Data says otherwise

https://www.statista.com/chart/19524/cups-of-coffee-drunk-by...

"One cup" of coffee doesn't mean anything by itself since the effects depend on both genetics and tolerance. Do you have data that confirms that majority of adults either consume so much coffee that it causes unwanted side effects (sleep problems) or that they want to reduce their consumption and struggling to do so due to the dependency?

I usually consume two double espressos per day (both before noon) and don't have trouble falling asleep afterwards.

It's like website blockers for productivity: eventually you realize you can just undo the work you did and go back to business as usual, especially if there's an excuse ("I need this youtube video on software architecture for my research, so I'll just unblock youtube and...")

It's not 0 or 1 is it? E.g. a "short espresso" in the early morning hours at least from my sleep tracking / particular (heavy) physiology doesn't make a difference vs when I'm off of caffeine (on weekends usually).

Your link literally says: “ Epidemiologic studies have provided inconclusive evidence for a protective effect of caffeine consumption on risk of dementia and cognitive decline.”

That doesn’t sound very convincing.

Context is key. You've just cited the concept under challenge. The summary and conclusion literally says it "may reduce the risk of dementia and cognitive decline, and may ameliorate cognitive decline in cognitively impaired individuals."

Without reading this paper but having read a bunch of this research in the past, it’s definitely inconclusive due to poor quality data. The people who don’t consume caffeine category too often includes those with major health issues that prevent them from doing so.

I have always had insomnia and have to maintain very good sleep hygiene. Here's a few things I have found that help me get to sleep:

- No exercise after 18:30/6:30pm

- Absolutely avoid Vitamin D and Vitamin B supplements in the evening. These will suppress deep and REM sleep and I'll sleep lightly all night long if I take them.

- Hot sauna, shower, or bath before bed.

- Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I feel like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake me up.

Things that keep me from waking up at night:

- Gas X as needed to avoid acid reflux

- Anti Inflammatory helps keep me from having to use the bathroom when I know I'm inflamed (getting old sucks).

- No alcohol in the evening

- No videogames, interesting books, or French lessons right before bed, or I'll be sleeping lightly and find myself ruminating in light sleep over these mentally engaging topics.

Would you mind sharing what you take for the anti-inflammatory? Do you take it daily?

I take Ibuprofen, and only when I can tell there is a problem (like when I've been up several times on preceding nights). It also seems correlated with junk food and alcohol. I generally have a very clean diet, and if I slip, I generally feel like I have inflammation a few days later which keeps me up at night when I wake up needing to go.

No alcohol or weed in the evening is critical for me. Either after about 5pm completely ruins my sleep.

I on the other hand can't get to sleep without weed, and that's my sole purpose for consuming it.

Sounds like a stress/relaxation issue.

Have you also tried no calories after 5 PM? That has given me the deepest sleep with vivid dreams.

Something that helps me is to do something physically exhausting during the day. Probably not right before bedtime though. For me it's weightlifting, that's the only exercise I've been able to stick with. If that's not your thing, try to find something else that elevates your heart rate/makes you sweat for 30 minutes or so, that might help you sleep better. Even some deep stretching/yoga can get your muscles firing and get your heart rate up.

You might also try no screens/TV/computers after dark. Keep interior lights at low levels and a warm color temperature after dark. Be intentional about doing calming, quiet things before bedtime.

When do you usually go to bed?

Conventional wisdom says do not eat within 3 hours of sleep. If you go to bed at 10:00, nothing after 7:00.

I thought vivid dreaming was an indicator of sleep interruption, not quality sleep. IIRC dreaming happens during our deepest sleep when you would not normally be easily woken up. Remembering your dreams mean you woke during that time.

I thought that too, but what seems to happen is that I wake up remembering a very long dream rather than just a jumble of dream snippets from the night.

Just make sure your anti-histamine is not in this list of drugs to avoid.

https://youtu.be/16n80OQCVSM?si=_Ve2HH4U2N-ATTnj

I think that's why they specified zyrtec which is a second generation (not anticholinergic) antihistamine

Most off-the-shelf antihistamines are now non-drowsy.

I asked the pharmacist for a drowsy antihistamine the other day and they gave me something from behind the counter (no script required). No idea if it was anticholinergic: most drugs require compromises so if something works better for sleep for me I'll judge the risks for other side-effects.

Normally I use a loratidine if I wake in the early hours and that usually gets me back to sleep, even though it is non-drowsy.

I wanted to try a different antihistamine to see if it worked better: jury's out on that at the moment.

Personally I think it is very important to experiment on yourself, and test a variety of solutions. I will even test alternative medicine for important problems. I strongly avoid dangerous solutions. I am fairly conservative and I especially dislike taking pills, but I believe in the value of trying a bit of science on your problems.

The antihistamines that make you drowsy are first generation antihistamines like benadryl that research has suggested are very bad to take more than occasionally (linked to dementia risk, etc.)

If you need something for sleep I highly suggest you either try melatonin if you want something OTC or talk to your doctor for something that requires a prescription.

Aside from melatonin, pretty much every OTC sleeping drug you can get is an anticholinergic drug which is better to avoid.

Cheers.

Yes Promethazine (the anti-histamine I'm using) is a moderate anticholinergic.

AFAIK Melatonin needs a doctor's prescription in New Zealand.

I will balance the risks as best I can (lack of sleep is also very unhealthy!!), and keep scientifically trying softer alternatives.

Funny how you say avoid Vit D, yet another poster swears taking Vit D before bed solved their issue.

Suggests there's other variables involved, like time of day taken, other supplements taken simultaneously, metabolic processes, diet, and maybe even the placebo effect.

If you pubmed vitamin d and sleep you find that in general vitamin d makes sleep quality worse. (I'm sure there are exceptions)

I have a wealth of experiential data on this, validated as recently as this previous July over a two week period. Like clockwork, if I take my Vit D supplement in the evening (like before bed), I will have almost zero REM sleep and will wake up from 8 hours of sleep exhausted. I have no idea why this happens but it's very repeatable.

>having to use the bathroom when I know I'm inflamed

What does this sentence mean?

If i had to take a guess i think this person might be referring to an enlarged/inflamed prostate.

Oh! Ok, I get it now.

I thought he was feeling any kind of inflammation in his body.

Parent is correct. It might or might not be prostate, or my intestines putting pressure on my bladder.

What really kills me is acid reflux. If I get it at night I just have to wake up and sit down or stand up until it passes... fortunately it happens rarely enough and I kind of know what will trigger it, but it still sucks.

Are you eating within 3 hours of sleep?

Alka-Seltzer always knocks reflux down for me pretty quick. Still get woken up by the reflux and have to haul myself out of bed to get the goods, but a few sips and I can get right back in bed.

Oh interesting, I see that it's made with bicabornate sodium. Just bought some! And some tums as well. Let's see if any of these work :D thanks!

Try OTC reflux medicine like Prilosec (Omeprazole). Works way better than Tums for reflux in my experience.

I have some from Costco and IIUC you need to take it in the morning or something for 2 weeks? Never seemed to do much to me though, especially when I really need it.

Don't eat near bedtime, and you might want to consider tilting your bed a few degrees.

FWIW and for others reading this. If you experience reflux regularly, go get checked. I had an undiagnosed H Pilory infection for years (can lead to cancer). 2 weeks of antibiotics fixed it.

Interestingly I had this issue and got better for a while. Maybe I should get checked again.

For me it's really an intestinal gas issue that's forcing my stomach to compress, such that when I lay down, the acid makes way to my esophagus.

Curious how gas x helps with acid reflux. My understanding is that it's for bloating more than reflux. Do you find it works better than antacids?

It helps reduce bloating. If you have bloating + weak esophageal sphincter (or just really bad bloating) you can get reflux as a result.

Actually, more accurately, gas-x has an enzyme that helps break down oligosaccharides. The mechanism may be more complex than above if your acid reflux is somehow related to microbiome stuff (oligos are favorite food for all kinds of gut bacteria).

Thanks, never knew that!

Indeed, when I have intestinal gas, it pushes my stomach 'up' and exposes my esophagus to the acid.

What anti-inflammatory do you recommend? Ibuprofen works great for me but it's not something I want to use regularly. Turmeric/curcumin?

I just use Ibuprofen when I know there's an issue. It's not ideal, but it works.

> - Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I feel like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake me up.

Antihistamines are associated with increased dementia if you take the wrong ones, so it's not a good way to get more sleep. Melatonin, trazodone or a newer sleep drug is safer.

that seems to be associated with benadryl:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-d...

which is sometimes used for it's drowsy effect. cetirizine/loratidine are non-drowsy and I don't see any association known with dementia

Yeah, Benadryl is a weird drug. Look at its interactions with various receptor sites in humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine#Pharmacology

Benadryl does nothing to me except kill my deep and REM sleep and leave me "sleeping" but conscious. I'm exhausted the next day. I only take cetrizine.

agreed, any drowsy things seem to turn off weird parts of my brain but im left feeling like an awake zombie

> I'll be sleeping lightly and find myself ruminating in light sleep over these mentally engaging topics.

Huh, interesting. I find that I sometimes force myself to think on mentally engaging topics as it helps quiet the other, more negative things I might instead be ruminating on. It's counting sheep for me, really.

Im jealous of anyone who can sleep well. I have been doing all of the above for years as well as testing out different temperatures and also not looking at screens for well over an hour before going to bed.

I just can’t get good consistent deep sleep. I will say one thing that did help was i use to live in the city and after i moved outside of it and it was much much quieter at night (no trucks driving through or random sounds or honking in the middle of the night) i did notice an improvement.

Urban sounds are a big problem for me as well, but you may want to try a white noise generator (phone app or even a small low-power fan) to hide some of those noises.

The fan for me doubles as a way of getting air circulation. I keep windows open in other rooms, but not the bedroom - due to street noises. Having a CO2 monitor may give you some insights into another key factor impacting your sleep quality.

Start taking GlyNAC and see how you feel after a week or two. It's crazy nobody is recommending it but me here.

I might want to try! Do you have a particular product / brand you use that’s convenient to buy? I saw another comment of your mentioning then separated, is that how you take it?

Yes, I'm taking Glycine in powder (it's very cheap) from Vitality (UltraPure Glycine) and NAC from Chrisana - but I'm based in Switzerland. You should be able to find it anywhere, I'd think any brand would do just like any brand of vitamine C is likely ok.

NAC can have a number of surprising side effects for some, including anhedonia. Just be aware of the possibility before beginning to supplement it.

The biggest improvement for me by far was a CPAP.

CPAP nade a profound difference for me. Cognitively and physically.

Same! If you have poor sleep, it couldn’t hurt to see a sleep doc.

Could you elaborate? Are you talking about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_positive_airway_pre...

Not OP but given the context, yeah. CPAP machines help you breathe better and not wake up hundreds of times due to respiratory blockage. It’s almost a necessity for fat or muscular people to sleep really well.

I'm 145 lbs and use a CPAP because my nasal turbinates majorly swell up during the night or when I lay down. I'm urging my insurance company to cover the ClariFix procedure to hopefully fix my issue.

yes, it helps with sleep apnea that many older people eventually develop. You can sleep apnea it even if you don't snore.

getting a cpap can be a life changer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea

I agree, it's hard but worth it. I have the data to back it up through sleep tracking. I've always felt somewhat unfazed by coffee, yet caffeine flashbacks can be very subtle and do seem to have a measurable impact on this "user" at least.

Also really darkening the bedroom and keeping the temperature as low as possible.

Now if there only were a consistent solution for energetic "night owl" toddlers to go with that ever more optimized regimen :D

Just seconding many of the suggestions so far...

- no alcohol after dinner (none at all is better) - eat dinner as early as possible (before 7pm, even earlier is better) - turn off screens after 9pm (Kindle doesn't seem to impact, but phone/tablet/TV do) - exercise regularly, but not too close to bedtime - regular bed time and wake time (we go to bedroom 9:30-10, lights out 10:30, alarm at 6am).

Meditation and breathing exercise can help too, but I haven't had to try those much.

>Cutting out caffeine and alcohol entirely from my diet were by far the biggest improvements I made

Are you sure the latter improved deep sleep? Alcohol is known to interfere with REM sleep, but I've actually found it lengthens the amount of time I spend in deep sleep if I have a single beer or something at dinner. I tracked this over months with a sleep tracker.

I sleep too deeply. 1oz of liquor immediately before sleep makes me able to comprehend alarms in the morning.

That sounds like the opposite of sleeping too deeply to me. That sounds like you aren't getting enough.

Do yourself a favor. Take off the nightcap, put on the striped pajamas and the old-timey candle holder, and book out a full 10 hours for a few weeks. Make it non-negotiable. Full darkness, clean air, quiet, the works. Maybe even get tested for sleep apnea if you're overweight.

If you go through that for 3 weeks religiously and return to the nightcap I'll eat my words and consider you a medical anomaly. But I think you'll come out of it convinced it's worth the sacrifice.

Been there, I just sleep a full 10 hours and can't fall asleep the next night. I sleep 7 hours, that's the right amount for me. If I don't feel like drinking, I'll eat something heavy to lighten my sleep quality. I obsessively track my sleep, and this is all I've found so far. The other option is polyphasic, but that's limited in terms of practicality.