1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...
I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.
In 10 years that appliance may not connect to your wifi if the scheme has changed e.g. 2.4Ghz is dropped or something.
I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs.
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590
</absoluteTotalTangent>
So with Bosch, see if you can find a German address/feedback form. Don't worry, they'll understand English.
Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.
1. there's probably no evidence of it
2. the workers at the store will deny it
3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is
4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue
I still have a bricked Android phone from nonsense like that. If you:
1. Factory reset the phone while not logged in to the last Google account on the phone
2. Have the Google account invalidated (e.g., using an identity verification app on a temp noogler account, ...)
You'll never be able to access the phone again. The "factory reset" maintains some internal state despite a scary message on the screen promising everything is deleted and asking if that's really what you want, and it'll require the last working password.
Alright ... annoying, buggy (the fact that there are two factory resets and one doesn't reset the device is a problem; either fix or delete the broken one, or make the scary message scarier), but fine in my case.
It checks that password against Google's servers though instead of the local hash, and it doesn't even matter if you know the password; the fact that the account is inactive prevents you from accessing the phone.
If that phone is based on a Mediatek SoC, I believe a true reset is possible - look up SPFlashTool and read about this useful exploit:
https://tinyhack.com/2021/01/31/dissecting-a-mediatek-bootro...
Apple is really really difficult about getting these unlocked. The carriers can't do it, you have to show them proof of purchase and have an enterprise support contract. With Google the carriers can just do it usually.
I managed a fleet of mobiles at work for a while, this is how I know. It often happened that colleagues returned a phone without unlocking it.
In the US I am not worried about people taking my phone even in sketchy areas. I'm sure they'd much rather have my wallet or other valuables.
And to answer the obvious repair question -- yes, parts can be rebound to other motherboards etc., they just need iPhone Activation to pass first.
[1] https://www.loveitcoverit.com/news/changing-world/mobile-pho...
That makes sense if they e.g. have a higher resale value, but only if they have a higher resale value and the thieves are choosing them on purpose as a result.
Even if they get $10 for a $1200 iPhone they are happy. And many components can still be salvaged and be worth more than that.
The IMEI is burned into the phone. They should definitely make it hard to change the IMEI; but they do. If the phone is stolen then the IMEI gets reported as stolen and anyone who tries to activate the phone with a wireless carrier gets caught.
Why does Apple or Google need to inconvenience people who forget their passwords or encounter the conglomerate's bugs?
And if the problem is that each country is using a different IMEI blacklist then that seems like an obvious thing to fix. There are already treaties and agreements which is how the global phone network operates to begin with, or you could have US law enforcement set up a system to submit the IMEI to each of the individual blacklists.
And the calculation for the carrier is different. There's a inherent incentive on unblocking a phone for the carrier, as this means a billable contract. For Apple there's a inherent incentive in being known as having devices hard to unblock and thus, presumably less attractive for thieves.
To my knowledge, Apple has not had any insider compromise of activation lock.
This is why criminals try to phish the credentials from the victim instead.
A phone must be purchased for us (with invoice with serial no) originally, or it must have been enrolled in our corporate MDM before getting locked. And for a while they didn't even accept the latter.
So even if you are at a third party you won't get away with sneaking these through. Which is good, a bit annoying sometimes though when some of our vendors didn't provide serial number invoices. We now require it but during the first years of anti-theft lock it was a bit of an issue and caused a lot of e-waste for us, sadly.
First they would have to get caught.
> This is why criminals try to phish the credentials from the victim instead.
Either method would be effective and not every criminal would have access to an insider, or they would have to pay off the insider for each device and then still prefer to phish the customer if possible to avoid paying the bribe.
Even if that wasn't the case, as long as there were at least a few decently-sized countries not plugged into the system, that's where the thieves would sell all their devices.
Stolen Apple devices are still usable for parts (which is why parts pairing is not always a bad thing), and you can sometimes phish the Apple ID credentials from the victim, which is why stealing those devices is still profitable enough.
Yep, I always see "is this text legit?" posts with clear phishing URLs in iOS help groups on Facebook, posted by people who had their iPhones stolen and think it's Apple Support attempting to get it back.
Yes these often end up in Eastern Europe where the carriers don't really care about that stuff. And most people can't pay full price for top end phones so there's much more market for this stuff.
Even on legit corporations with tens of thousands of iPhones, Apple still gives you a lot of hassle if you want to get one unlocked. Just so this won't be used as a loophole.
It still limits the market where they can be sold, because even there the customer doesn't actually want a stolen device. What if that country starts blocking them, or they want to travel anywhere that does? They could even get arrested.
It also requires the thieves to have a network to transport them there, vs. individual petty thieves who would otherwise be selling them locally.
> Stolen Apple devices are still usable for parts (which is why parts pairing is not always a bad thing)
Parts pairing is still a scam. They could check the part against a stolen device list without refusing to pair with parts from third party OEMs or first party non-stolen parts from other regional markets.
At first I used to tell them (the way you would when someone goes around with their backpack wide open) but people were usually like 'mind your own business' so yeah. Better to let them find out the hard way then.
There are vulnerabilities. Some years ago when this was a new feature I got an android phone to use for development for someone. I just generated a new google account on it and promptly forgot the new email and pass.
Time to return it: surprise, it wanted the previous account to log in after a factory reset. I ended up keeping it and paying for it.
A few months later, after a weekend of googling, I found instructions on how to bypass it by using some vulnerability in the browser invoked in the initial set up, got to a browser window with an address bar, used it to download and install some apk with an older version of some system service, and used that to bypass the lockdown.
Of course, it's probably much harder than that now. But it's doable.
- Don't enable that kind of reset functionality if that kind of antitheft is enabled
- Warn the user about the potential bricked device, and require an additional confirmation
- Don't require a ping to Google servers when you can verify account ownership just via a matched password hash
Antitheft is fine and dandy, but the implementation is bad.
But yes, factory reset on Android phones only wipes the user data partition. Your phone has other things that don't necessarily get reset under a factory reset too, for instance: eSIMs (which is useful that it doesn't, in my experience)
A lot of buyers of used iPhones and Macbooks find that out the hard way, often because the owners don't even know about that. And actual thieves don't need to care about it as long as they find a buyer who doesn't know about it either.
It's a European model ("SMV4HAX48E", I'm in EMEA) so it might differ by markets.
1. _require_ dishwashers to have an Eco mode, not locked behind anything, but also
2. _require_ Eco mode to be the default. If you buy a dishwasher in the EU and turn it on, and press "start", it'll be on Eco mode, the mode that uses the least water/power.
If you don't care about the dishwasher other than to turn it on, and it works for you, then everybody wins. If it doesn't wash as much as you'd like, or takes longer thank you'd like, you can still have all the other dishwasher modes (express, intensive, etc.).
The whole point of the regulation is to make the default mode the most energy efficient. I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.
> I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.
... they didn't do that. There is no paywall.
All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.
> All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.
For a dishwasher yes, but I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. There are cloud connected devices that I really like. e.g. I like to run my Roomba on-demand after I leave my house, and I think that's an entirely reasonable use case.
Many other devices are useful away from home as well, which would all require internet connectivity. e.g. security systems, cameras, etc.
You pay with your data
When you register at HN you know that they need some data to manage your user account, for the same reason cookie banners aren't needed if all of a site's cookies are required for it to function. A dishwasher doesn't need a wifi connection or data to clean dishes, and if it's not clearly advertised before purchase that's effectively a hidden cost.
Perhaps nobody uses the word like that so far, but if enough people did it probably would turn out better for the consumer.
Security cameras are the classic example of widespread self hosted but internet-accessible.
Even the ones that have proprietary apps are often just alternative frontends to a web server running on the home network.
The typical MJPEG/ONVIF camera doesn't even remotely compete for the same customers as Ring/Nest/Blink.
Where I live internet access isn’t provided for free.
Y’all are doing acrobatics to twist the definition of a very common and clear word.
Similar with my AEG washer - a 40 degree cotton wash uses marginally more water than a 40 degree eco wash, but less power - and is 25% quicker.
Honestly, it’s not clear what the economy is supposed to be. Intensity of demand? Except on each appliance the heater runs at the same rated wattage when it’s heating - just different patterns of usage on eco mode, more off and on.
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...
You can also see there that they're tracking the effects of their regulations and measuring how much less electricity and water is used. The regulations also set minimum standards for cleaning, drying and energy usage so you can't sell products that look efficient but require everything washed twice, nor can you even include a resource hog mod.
And it mandates the availability of spare parts for a certain number of years, and access to repair information, so you don't just junk the whole object.
I can only imagine "Eco" mode being worse than other modes in some place where there's not good market regulation.
I just checked my own dishwasher, and its Eco mode uses 9L of water and 0.83kWh per cycle. Other washing modes use 9-17L water and 0.9-1.5kWh per cycle... so it does conform to the regulations.
The opposite, actually. Productive. Millions of litres of water and terawatts of power saved per year. End users collectively saving €1.3 billion on water and electricity costs in 2020 (in comparison to them having standard dishwashers from 1990 before any eco targets were set)
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...
It's almost as if they already thought this through when making the regulation.
I guess maybe both are bad. Yesterday I tried to configure a friend’s wifi router after the speed was suspiciously slow. It forced me to ask them for their Spectrum login info (the same info they use to pay the bills, not the wifi info) which nobody remembered and I gave up. Apparently this is required according to https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/s/3sLnHuWgEF
So if we’re badmouthing companies that lock physical functionality behind a cloud, add Spectrum. Not that you’ll have much choice if they’re the only provider, but still.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. What if you have someone house sitting? You really need to download the Bosch app to their phone just to use the same dishwashing routine that you usually do? Blah.
Any alternatives to Bosch that don’t do this?
The reason they do all of this is exactly because of the scenario you ran into: people are always forgetting their logins -- and back when modems/routers didn't have remote provisioning, they spent a lot of time and money sending technicians out to physically reset people's equipment.
I can’t think of a better way to offer the functionality in a way that works for so many customer segments.
For Costco it's 90 days for a major appliance, you don't have to justify yourself as to why. Some stores have terrible return policies, some have good enough policies.
I never got the "no need for wifi" in written form.
Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.
On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven.
But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT)
So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.
> Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this.
I don't hear about Americans with Bosch appliances very often, but every time I've heard (I suppose until today) it was a very negative review. Maybe the American versions are different, or perhaps I've just run across a few dissatisfied people randomly.
It might be something simpler
This is actually pretty low on the asshole scale.
Consider: dishwashing-as-a-service subscription model. You get the dishwasher chemicals in the post - the dishwasher automatically requests the next lot when it feels like it - and there's cover for repairs; for this you can either pay a regular fee or make in-app purchases of WashCoin, which you then spend when you need to wash the dishes. Maybe add a gacha mode to the app to win bonus wash / rinse / self-clean cycles.
We’re talking about 50 cents of part savings on a $3000+ appliance here.
Replaced them myself easily, but most people will end up having to call for service and end up replacing the entire board for hundreds of dollars minimum.
1. They're cheaper than mechanical buttons.
2. They're more space-efficient inside of the product.
3. They are easy to waterproof.
4. They have no wear-out mechanism.My guess is that I associate them with lag because any control interface that cut corners on buttons probably cut corners on everything else, too.
Capacitive buttons suck, but they are no worse in dishwashers than in any other appliance, in my usage at least
> you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.
Which functions?
This is a really confusing post without knowing what those functions are.
I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine.
Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access.
I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi.
I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app.
The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.
Those pieces of data are combined with others, to form a full picture. This device doesn't need to collect it all itself.
Survellance of private citizens is arguably the foundation of the very dangerous problems in societies around the world, taking away freedom, health, peace, and for most, prosperity. When do you stop it?
If someone is close enough to your home to listen to your washing machine (or more likely, inside) they can probably hear/see you more directly.
I did! Thanks.
Ad if someone is bugging my home I think the data transfer from my dishwasher is quite literally the least of my worries.
Yeah, being able to record sounds that the washer makes would probably also enable you to analyze things people say and extract much more information than 'how many people live there' and 'are they home or not'.
But fortunately for us, you need to actually press a physical button to make the machine sing the diagnostics..
Doubling or tripling the amount of data sent would be negligible over a wire, but an audio protocol won't be as snappy. Then there's the matter of trust/decryption. How are those keys being kept safe? What happens if I lose access?
Having to go through their site and their auth means they ultimately control the appliance I paid full price for.
If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus little security considerations?
Yea - I know. Works much better to upsell "wifi enabled" and I'm happy that the appliances only beep rarely.
A good marketer could give a catchy name to sell the advantages of that system too. Top of my head I can think of "near-fi", but certainly could be done better.
("Sugar, Free Donuts")
Spyware and asbestos, free!
LG must have some internal standard for this feature. If they would just publish it and then that could be the standard.
Edit: to the downvotetards, if you worked in actual engineering like I do, then you would understand that this is how most standards naturally materialize. Someone does one thing particularly well, it becomes the standard.
99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.
Kinda of like a bluetooth X-terminal, but way way simpler. Think tkinter over bluetooth, probably sans canvas.
A bunch of people will say to just use wifi, make the device a Hotspot, and use your web browser. That's not a bad idea, but tiny devices aren't going to run web servers dishing out multi megabits frameworks.
It could be hard to encode JSON messages dynamically for the actual data to show in the web application, but you _can_ use other protocols from a browser too (CBOR is quite popular for this).
Maybe not. I'm using a micro controller with specific peripherals and ADC requirements for a high speed control system. This has less RAM and flash that you can probably get away with for a web server. We'd have to add a bluetooth radio chip, but I hear those go for well under $1. There are all kinds of embedded devices that have few resources but could be expanded with cheap Bluetooth connectivity. I realize this is changing quickly, but there will always be very small devices.
The product I worked on the bluetooth chip was more expensive than the CPU if memory serves me right and we did something similar. But I am not a board designer or procurement expert.
A long time ago I developed a project called "Handbag[0] for Android"[1] based around a similar concept--it targeted the short-lived "Android Open Accessory Protocol" initially over USB & later also over network/WiFi.
(My project notes from the time mentioned a long-term goal of also supporting Bluetooth but that never eventuated...)
Handbag made use of a "generic" Android app for UI display/interaction and an Arduino library that communicated with the app over a binary protocol.
The app would display various UI widgets such as labels/progress bars to display feedback from the accessory and text inputs/buttons to accept input forwarded to the accessory.
While the project did not take the world by storm, I was reminded when digging up these links that at least one person called the concept genius[2]. :)
----
[0] Because it let you "accessorize your Android phone or tablet". :D
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130205135845/http://handbagdev...
[2] https://www.doctormonk.com/2011/11/handbag-android-and-ardui...
Can we stop putting obligatory (hackable) active network devices everywhere ?
I can buy 128M flash for $2/10k
Back in the days infrared connection was a thing. I remember connecting my Compaq iPAQ PDA to Nokia phone.
Wonder if the modern cellphone cameras are fast enough to act as receiver and if this supported one way communication.
Miele uses flashing LED as some sort of serial communication.
I’d like to see them all have a USB port. If you plug in a thumb drive the appliance should create a directory named with the appliance manufacturer and model and serial number. In that directory it should place a copy of its manual and other documents that normally come with it.
This sounds far, far better to me - and just goes to show it's not necessary for everything to be connected to the Internet...
My LG microwave has this too; it wasn't a selling point for me, but I thought it was a nice compromise by their engineers and product team.
I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start.
I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about.
I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO.
Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...
As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.
I'm no dishwasher expert and I guess they did their homework but over a period of 10 years, how can be cheaper to remove the local functionality, add a wifi chip, redo the manuals, and pay for the datacenter costs?
Also I seriously doubt the hosting costs are more than a rounding error for a multiple-hundred-dollar appliance.
Ok but...
> then think if they already have that they can save some cents on buttons.
Isn't this a rounding error as well, on a >500$ appliance?
How can we have at the same time dishwashers with no 7-segments display because it's too expensive and other brands with wifi on every model? It cannot be just for costs, there ought to be marketing reasons behind this.
Seems like the "top control" range, which I can't even see in other countries, might be what's presenting the problem to the author.
I don't GAF about appliances being dumb, but I agree it's not a great thing if you have to use smart controls. Provide both and we're all good IMHO.
I recently bought a Bosch and regret it for some of the same reasons as this article. I probably should have got the Miele but CR ratings were slightly higher for Bosch, the repair rates in different places were similar, and the cost was slightly less for the Bosch.
I'm ok with networked appliances but think every function should be operable at the minimum level of networking required to implement that function.
So, a specific washing or drying program shouldn't require any networking, so should function without any networking. Checking the status of a cycle on you phone can be done locally through something like Bluetooth, so it should operate with that and no wifi. Remote monitoring requires internet of some sort, so that's fine.
What makes me furious is requiring a phone app to run something like a delicate or rinse-only cycle.
Funny, that is a single physical button on my Siemens dishwasher.
But as I said before - not really something I care about either way.
Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.
I love Bosch, all the stuff we have from them works perfectly many years after buying. Similar for Siemens. But for me - AEG, Whirlpool and Electrolux are the crappiest of the crappiest stuff I've experienced, those brands are banned at my home.
But there is the trick - go for highest offline-only range, which is normally in the middle or just above middle of the range. Best value for money. Plus I couldn't care less of some online features, don't need them, hate them, its just a ticking bomb regardless of manufacturer.
Same as recently discussed here Samsung HW-Q990D surround soundbar update bricking the devices for some. Why the heck would I ever want to update surround speakers which work perfectly fine now? Some sort of OCD out of hands? They never add anything important with such updates, and the general risk is not worth doing it. Plus avoiding not-another-stupid-app-in-phone syndrome.
Often the parts you actually care about are the same among most of the products in a range. When looking at Miele dishwashers recently they all had the same core dish washing mechanics, and all you got when moving to the highest end model was some superficial design changes, an app and that the door popped open once it was done.
Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.
I fully agree.
But to be fair, in a other comment someone linked to a website [0] explaining that the app could be used without connection to internet. So in this case perhaps Bosch didn't have as much of a malicious intent as originally thought.
Quote from the link:
However, [..], the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.
You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company, not caring about looking into the current state of what they are producing?
Absolutely. Companies that make bullshit products very rarely get their act together, so why wouldn't brand loyalty be a thing when one encounters a quality product?
> after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023
That is news to me. If true my next dishwasher is going to be a Hobart from the used restaurant equipment shop up the way. Incidentally I just looked into it and Bosch claims that their HomeConnect enabled dishwashers function just fine with no internet connection, so there is that.
Absolutely bullshit. If you are a dishwasher without any network connectivity, how are you posting comments on the internet, Mr Bosch?
Bosch and Siemens had a joint venture since like 1960's. Around a decade ago Siemens sold out their BSH part of the company to Bosch completely and Bosch still makes some equipment under that brand. Yet still Siemens exist and is completely independent company.
Such joint ventures were not unlikely events for companies in that space in Europe. Siemens had parts of the company separated more often. Nokia Siemens Networks is kind of big (they ditched the Siemens name a decade ago), Nokia Siemens had briefly been know for cell phones for instance, Fujitsu Siemens did IT Enterprise hardware and software, PDAs and similar (here Fujitsu also took over and ditched Siemens part of the name).
Your buying advice ain't better than the guy's that sold that dishwasher to Jeff.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140923104028/http://www.rttnew...
They all use HomeConnect
I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Dedicated "machine care" button. Not sure what the "rinse cycle" is, so I don't know if it has it, but there's a special rinsing-related button on the front that does something that prolongs the cycle. It also has a dedicated "half load" button. It has buttons for every "useful" cycle, like "eco" which is automatically selected when I turn it on. It's also able to go to a menu of sorts where I can configure water hardness, the quantity of rinsing liquid I want (separately from the hardness setting) and some other things I forgot.
The machine was bought new a little less than two years ago and does have the wifi and bluetooth and whatnot. It's also the only appliance I know which supports 5 GHz wifi. The manual also tries to get you to install the app, but it's not needed.
Where do you live? Pretty sure that in the EU they’d have to take it back, for any reason, if it’s not been 14 days yet. Though the no packaging could pose an issue, yeah.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297
This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.
What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?
Hardware offline UX gives me hope that my data would not be sold or that I wouldn’t have to pay for an extra subscription or watch ads. Perhaps it’s correlation.
Still, “no cloud” is a step in the right direction; I’ll take it.
> Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
> But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!
We've all been there. It works, until the shareholders decide differently, and you can no longer use your dishwasher without connecting / agreeing to the terms.
My primary issue with requiring the use of an app is that apps are a pain in the ass. Allow the use of an app as an option, sure, but the appliances should be able to be fully used with the controls on the appliance itself as well. Requiring the use of an app is a dealbreaker for me, but for usability reasons more than security reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_...
Bosch, in particular, is highly regarded. They also have a wide range. I bought an 800 series 2-3 years ago. I went online to see if anything had changed. You still find the same options: front controls, top controls, different finishes, etc. You can still absolutely buy a dishwasher with manual controls. They're excellent products.
Now my model seems to be before Wifi was added although I did buy an LG washer and dryer that has Wifi, which I did actually try and set up and failed. The code and stack in these things is truly awful. AFAICT I couldn't get it to work because my home network is segmented with 2 Wifi access points. Each of them broadcasts my Wifi network on the same SSID with the same credentials so devices use whichever one has the best signal. It doesn't always move routers so it's not as good as, say, a Ubiquiti network, but it's good enough.
Anyway, the washer/dryer listed my Wifi network 3 times and failed to connect to it for reasons I never established. The error message was a generic "authorization failed". I think it might've had something to do with DHCP. Possibly my address range or DNS servers. Weirdly, it would connect via a phone hotspot just fine. In the end I gave up.
But the point is that the washer/dryer work just fine without Wifi and although I don't have a Wifi-enabled Bosch dishwasher, I very much suspect they do too. Your comment says "it needs to use their website for some functions". What functions, exactly? Would that be notifications for when a load is done? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I bet the dishwasher worked just fine without Wifi.
Requisite archive.ph link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
I like that they've been quiet and reliable, the reliability affirmed by the repair person that replaced the pump.
I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.
I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.
Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.