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Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by antognini on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:17PM (#35621856)
It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.)

At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective. You could imagine that the maritime world could have gone with a similar convention. But the downside is that on very rare occasions someone along the way gets confused and the doctor operates on the wrong side of the body.

The theatrical world takes an intermediate approach, where they use the terms "stage left / stage right", which always refer to the perspective of an actor onstage facing the audience. Then the word "stage" tells you the perspective, but you still keep the words left/right so you don't have to memorize two completely separate words.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by abhibeckert on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:29PM (#35621960)
> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective

In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always) facing the audience.

If the stage manager is facing a different way that doesn't affect the meaning of left/right.

It's from their perspective because they are basically the only person who isn't running around like a chook with their head cut off (because their eyes are glued to the script and video screens - https://youtu.be/DP2QOmN57iU?t=82).

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by danielvf on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:08PM (#35623400)
For stage directions there's also "House Left" and "House Right", which are from the perspective of the audience.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by blahlabs on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:22PM (#35623896)
And in broadcast it can be referred to as 'Camera Left' and 'Camera Right', which is also from the audience perspective.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HelloNurse on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:54AM (#35625934)
The camera's perspective. Audience perspective could be mediated by coarse special effects such as reflecting or turning the image.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dotancohen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:36AM (#35624966)
I've heard it referred to as "Audience Left" and "Audience Right", though I'm not in the industry.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jdietrich on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:10PM (#35623820)
In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by noduerme on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:45PM (#35624030)
I thought it would be difficult when I bought a car in Australia to manage shifting with my left hand, but it turned out to be surprisingly easy. I had been under the impression for some reason that the clutch would be controlled with the right foot. Thank God the pedals are in the same places.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rcme on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:33AM (#35624263)
Is 1st gear still in the top left position?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by knifie_spoonie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:38AM (#35624288)
Yes, the shifting pattern is exactly the same.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mr_toad on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:09AM (#35624465)
But usually the wipers and indicator controls are reversed, which can be embarrassing.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by alibarber on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:40AM (#35624633)
Coming from the UK to Aus / NZ I was feeling smug ;) - but of course, this caught me out.

To be clear in the UK the wheel is on the right but the indicator is still on the left side of the wheel as in a European LHD car, just to keep things different.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by atorodius on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:47AM (#35624672)
Lohe this. Reminded me of the wild complexity in our global society
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:08AM (#35626356)
It's not a UK thing (which side the indicator stem is), it's a manufacturer thing.

Like position of reverse gear on a H-style gear stick, some left-and-up, some right-and-down; some with a collar interlock, some with a button, some you push the whole stick down towards the ground ...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by acherion on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:21AM (#35624536)
And it's not always reversed! Australian-made and Japanese-made cars tend to have indicator on the right stalk, and wipers on the left. European cars tend to have indicators on the left stalk, and wipers on the right. But not always!

Case in point: my wife and I live in Australia (have done so all our lives), and my wife had a 2008 Ford Focus, made in South Africa (a RHD country). Indicator stalk was on the left, wiper on the right (aka "European" style). She then upgraded to a 2020 Ford Focus, made in Germany (it's the wagon model), and the wiper is on the left, indicator on the right. Which confuses me, as I drive a BMW, which has indicators on the left and wipers on the right.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jojobas on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:28AM (#35624915)
Blinkers were always on the outside when most cars had manual transmissions, the opposite would be very inconvenient (and still is). Then somehow Britain didn't challenge the EU regulation that indicators must be on the left regardless of the driving side. Japanese and Korean cars still supply right-hand indicatored-cars to Japan, Australia and New Zealand, yet left-indicatored to the UK, go figure, European ones don't give a shit, so buyers of BMWs and MBs suffer (or enjoy?) being incompatible with the rest.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by acherion on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:55AM (#35625119)
The indicator should be on the outside, so you can change gear (in a manual transmission car) and indicate at the same time. It's just common sense.

I am used to the indicators on the left though when driving my BMW, so I experience the classic "wipers instead of indicators" dance many times when I drive my wife's car. As most cars nowadays are automatics, I guess this reasoning is falling out of relevance more and more.

I also want to note that not all Australian built cars had wipers on the left and indicators on the right – many GM Holden models like the Kingswood and early Commodore models from the 1980s had them both on the one stalk – that stalk being on the right of course.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by leipert on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:22AM (#35624538)
Sibling comment mentions indicators and wipers being switched.

Anecdote 1) In NZ I saw a car in the middle of a busy roundabout, wipers on, passengers visibly confused and crying.

Anecdote 2) A kayak guide also mentioned, that if you see someone entering a roundabout, windshield wiping, on a sunny day, you just wait and let them do their thing.

Anecdote 3) After a month in NZ I came back to Germany and actually muscle memory let me to use wipers instead of indicators on the autobahn when changing lanes. Oof.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ace2358 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:55AM (#35624706)
It gets even worse when some cars put the indicator shaft on the left of the steering wheel and others put it on the right haha
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dotancohen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:33AM (#35624938)
As a speaker of a Right-To-Left language, I see this all the time in software. Some software change the UI direction when switching to Hebrew, some don't. And culturally, it seems that Arabic users _do_ prefer the UI to be switched, but Hebrew users do not.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:32AM (#35625380)
Pamper roundabout and Royal Oak roundabouts in Auckland are interesting.

Royal Oak has an ice cream parlour with a good view of the carnage.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by abenga on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:12AM (#35626379)
The wiper thing is marque dependent, even within countries. I live in East Africa, drive on the left. German cars (I've driven a few) seem to have wiper stalks on the right and indicator control on the left. Toyotas (and I guess other Japanese cars) I've driven have it on the opposite side. Whenever I drive a friend's car, I always hit the wipers a few times at the beginning of a trip before I acclimatize.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:30AM (#35625370)
Far too new for an Australian purist. It’s three on the tree thank you.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ubermonkey on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:55AM (#35628165)
Yeah, it's a relief to discover that the driver's cockpit (for lack of a better term) is just moved side-to-side wholesale and not flipped -- EXCEPT for the shifter, which remains in the middle.

I was surprised how easily my body got used to left-hand shifting, but I will say this: I've been driving stick shifts for nearly 40 years, and never miss a gear in the US. However, driving in the UK I find that left hand is NOWHERE NEARLY AS GOOD at distinguishing 1st from 3rd as my right is. Muscle memory!

Steering-column manual shifting (e.g. "three on the tree") is pretty much extinct today, but I assume that the "move the whole driver section over" thing means that column-shifted manuals in the UK were still shifted with the right hand. Does anyone know?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by glxxyz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:52AM (#35628863)
The first time I drove a manual car back in the UK after a few years driving a manual in Canada I went to change gear and grabbed the door handle.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by numbsafari on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:08AM (#35624144)
This is how I refer to my dog’s legs/paws… eg, driver side rear would be his back left leg.

He’s a sport sedan, so it applies.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:19AM (#35624196)
Remember, in the US the inside lane is on the left, and in the UK the inside lane is on the left.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wiredfool on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:55AM (#35625111)
Inside is where the double yellow is.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by markus92 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:49AM (#35625899)
Double yellow on the road in the UK? You got jokes my friend.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wiredfool on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:09AM (#35626360)
Double yellow means parking bay, right?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by gav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:51AM (#35624358)
If you're giving directions to somebody driving, like when reversing into a tricky spot, you can tell them to "turn driver" or "turn passenger" so there's no ambiguity.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by omegabravo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:49AM (#35624686)
I've heard the term "left hand down", aka turn left but much more explicit.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dotancohen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:35AM (#35624959)
Why not simply "counterclockwise"?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rantallion on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:44AM (#35625469)
Depends. Are you referring to the rotation of the wheel or of the car? While I've never heard it used before, the post to which you're replying avoids that ambiguity.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dotancohen on Thursday April 20, 2023 @03:13AM (#35637230)
I'm referring to the rotation of the wheel. But there is no ambiguity - when the wheel is rotated counter clockwise the vehicle turns (as viewed from above) counter clockwise. That is not coincidence - it is very intuitive to use.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Steve44 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:34AM (#35625394)
In the UK I was taught off-side and near side which referred to the sides nearest and away from the kerb as you are driving. That would be localised to which side of the road your location drives on, but not affected by left or right hand drive.

I still use is when checking tyre pressures for example, they are handy and unambiguous acronyms. For example Off Side Front ( OSF ) would be the drivers side front mostly.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by imoverclocked on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:40AM (#35625435)
Except that the side of the road you drive on changes between countries as well. In the usual case, driver’s are on the side away from the curb so that passengers can be picked up and stopped off. There are also visibility concerns with going around corners that are better when drivers are closer to the center of the road.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Fradow on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:37AM (#35625414)
It's a whole lot of weirdness, especially since most interactions in English language on the internet will be with either US or UK people.

Sometimes, you want to use passenger/driver side: for example, on my car, brake flushing procedure is always rear passenger first, no matter driving side.

And sometime you want to use left/right, which is always assumed to be according to the driver's position (so it's reversed when facing the engine), because some things aren't reversed, no matter the driving side: for example, on my car, the BCM and hood latch are always on the right side (which makes it inconvenient to open the hood for a left-side driving car).

P.S.: how do I know for certain? A friend has the exact same model but with opposite driving position because it's a UK import.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by midasuni on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:39AM (#35625428)
Near side and off side
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Lio on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:18AM (#35625693)
An interesting thing to note is how this affects the control sticks on a car.

Generally the indicators will be operated with the hand that's furthest from the centre so that you can change gear in a manual car and turn the indicators on at the same time.

Australia, Japan, New Zealand amongst others all operate their indicators with the right hand. Not in the UK though.

Even though we drive on the left our indicators swapped to match other EU[0] countries that drive on the right sometime in the 1980s.

I drive a manual car and you just get used to doing both with the same hand. All done via subconscious muscle memory.

In fact I never really gave it much though until going round a corner in an automatic hire car in Christchurch, New Zealand. Wipers scraping across a dry screen, my hand desperately hunting for the missing gear stick as other cars hooted at me...

-

0. Let's just ignore elephant in the room for now.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:05AM (#35625993)
Commonly referred to as "offside" and "nearside"; terms I find confusing. I think the nearside is the side near the edge of the road, and the offside is the side near the center of the road.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by interroboink on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:24PM (#35621917)
Your medical comment reminded me of the fascinating constellation of terminology used to identify locations and orientations in anatomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location

Some of the terms: dorsal/ventral, proximal/distal, anterior/posterior, superior/inferior, oral/aboral, basal/apical

When you're describing something like a microbe, the terms get fairly arbitrary; which is the "head" end of some little blobby thing?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dogmatism on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:14PM (#35622429)
the thing that's tricky is basal/apical can be different directions: i.e. the base of the lung is at the bottom, the base of the left ventricle (in the heart) at the top. You have to know the shape of the organ to know. There's also cranial/caudal, axial/coronal/sagittal just off the top of my head
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:01AM (#35626326)
That's some good punning!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bewaretheirs on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:20AM (#35624531)
And dentists talking about tooth faces have buccal (cheek-side), lingual (tongue side), occlusal (chewing surface), mesial (side closest to center), and distal (the other side from mesial).
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by hanoz on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:34PM (#35622006)
> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective.

Didn't know that! So how pervasive is this principal? Would it apply to a descriptive reference to a diagram in a book for example?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by antognini on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:57PM (#35622239)
Yes. As a random example, you'll see that although the lungs are seen from the perspective of a doctor facing a patient, they are labelled left/right from the patient's perspective: https://www.therespiratorysystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2017...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by zarzavat on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:37PM (#35623986)
The reason is that when a patient comes to a doctor they will say they have a pain in their left side, without further qualification. So it makes sense to center the entire terminology around that situation. Otherwise doctors would constantly be having to do error-prone conversions.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kqr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:11AM (#35624476)
Well, that and also doctors can walk around patients they are examining, e.g. auscultation of the lungs on the back.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:34AM (#35625397)
Doctors examine patients?

I thought they just sent them to radiology?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by beefield on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:52AM (#35624361)
I think the principle is pretty pervasive also outside medicals. I do not recall anyone ever refer to my left hand as right hand (other than maybe by mistake), regardless how they are oriented around me.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kgwgk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:08AM (#35625205)
After all, doctors are humans and also have a body. It would be strange for them to write books saying that the heart is [#] on the right side when they have it on their left, etc.

[%] usually, because this is HN

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tzs on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @07:49PM (#35622166)
There's also the approach taken in some Australian native languages, e.g. [1], where they use absolute directions instead of relative directions, so they would call what we call the port side of a boat the north side if the boat was heading east, and call it the west side if the boat was heading north.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuuk_Thaayorre_language

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bryanlarsen on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @09:12PM (#35622929)
Ask a farmer for directions. In my experience it's more likely they will tell you to turn north/south/east/west than left or right.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yafbum on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:49AM (#35624346)
Maybe in the US and other places that have a grid system as their main road planning principle and route naming principle? In Europe, where roads tend to follow the terrain more, I've not really heard this.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HideousKojima on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:11AM (#35624478)
The US doesn't really have a (consistent) grid system outside of cities, with the notable exception of Utah (due to planning efforts by the Mormon pioneers). And even in cities it can be a mess. For example Seattle grew from three different smaller areas that all planned their roads to be parallel to the coast. The problem is the coast isn't in a straight line so as they grew and combined into a single city it created a lot of awkward intersections where the roads meet.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yafbum on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:23AM (#35624546)
? I'm not talking about the suburbs of Seattle, check out maps of rural areas of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Texas, Nebraska, or even the plains in the east of Washington state, most of the rural roads are running primarily North/South or East/West. Not that it's a grid system as in Manhattan, but it is following a grid pattern, and the names of the routes on signs and in spoken language are like "380 West" "215 North", etc. In the interstate system and many state road systems, this is reinforced by numbering convention that East/West roads are numbered even, while North/South roads are numbered odd. None of that exists in Europe.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by eCa on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:21AM (#35624868)
> East/West roads are numbered even, while North/South roads are numbered odd. None of that exists in Europe.

The E roads of Europe are generally numbered that way too[1], though exceptions exist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network#N...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by socialdemocrat on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:38AM (#35625842)
You can just look at a map over the US and see quickly how the grid pattern exists at almost any zoom level. You also notice it in how people think about directions. As a European I found it tricky to deal with but I saw the opposite when Americans drive in Europe. They really struggle with a system not built around thinking east-west and north-south.

I think generally in Europe people think in terms of landmarks rather than fixed directions.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:22AM (#35626832)
Much of the inner US was divided by the Homestead Acts of the 1860's into square mile (640 acre) sections, 160 acre quarters, and then further into forty's. cf "back forty". These are all square.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:18AM (#35626813)
Yes, highly likely. My experience of such is mostly in the Canadian prairies, which are sectioned into square mile grids.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:06PM (#35631334)
I started to make a joke about correction lines, but couldn't come up with a punchline :-(
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dontlaugh on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:57AM (#35627045)
You’ll be told about uphill and downhill for sure.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by godelski on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:44PM (#35624025)
There's a few other languages that do this (as the primary version. Most languages mix)[0]. In fact there's 3 main classes:

- relative: in relation to the viewer (e.g. The mouse is to my right)

- absolute: using some coordinate system, such as cardinal (e.g. Plant is on the North side of the room)

- intrinsic: relative, but with respect to another object and not the viewer (e.g. the TV is on top of the TV stand which is opposite of the door)

It is worth mentioning that this is overly simplified and that there is a lot more nuance to all this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_spatial_cognition

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wahern on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:05AM (#35624438)
FWIW, if you read the literature closely, Kuuk Thaayorre is also mixed. They have words for left and right and use them to describe relative orientation, notwithstanding the emphasis on cardinal directions. A related language, Guugu Yimithirr, does seem to completely lack use of left and right to describe spatial orientation; it has the words--similar to Kuuk Thaayorre, words identifying left and right hand/arm--but it doesn't extend them figuratively as Kuuk Thaayorre does. (They both extend other body-related orientation terminology, e.g. to describe being ahead or behind something or someone.) However, Guugo Yimithirr seems to heavily rely on hand and body gestures to help establish relative orientation of the subject or object. Reading the literature, I don't think Guugo Yimithirr would be capable of adequately conveying direction and orientation over the telephone.

Alot of the literature also makes hay about these language speakers having preternatural skills at maintaining a cardinal orientation mentally. I don't doubt they're good at it, but I suspect that that skill is something that has only recently become uncommon in the industrialized world. As a kid growing up in the U.S., being able to keep track of cardinal orientation was something I understood as a skill expected of men, and not by tracking the sun or consciously using other obvious markers. It was quite obviously a vestigial gendered skill at that point--noteworthy if you had any proficiency at it--but clearly one within recent memory of male adults. Moreover, AFAIU, there's also research showing that Americans tend to use cardinal directions and navigation more than many European countries, presumably related to our lived geography.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by godelski on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:43PM (#35631781)
> Alot of the literature also makes hay about these language speakers having preternatural skills at maintaining a cardinal orientation mentally.

Wahern is referring to the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis[0] (Linguistic Relativity). I do find that this is also often misunderstood. I'm in your camp about the directions. I've always viewed linguistic relativity as just saying that your language is a framework. It should be relatively obvious that if you use something a lot that you'll be good at it. You'll find that mountaineers, sailors, and pilots are better than most at of the population because they use cardinal directions a lot. It is experimentally provable that you can make your brain prioritize rather arbitrary things. For example, get a watch and set it to beep every hour. You'll probably get a better sense of time (especially if you can get different tones for 15 minute intervals). So what I'm saying is that the weak Sapir-Whorf is well recognized (what we discussed) but very few realistically believe the strong Sapir-Whorf.

But either way, if anyone reading these comments hasn't been interested in languages before I promise you that they are a lot cooler than you imagine. Far from just communication (which is rather incredible in the first place) and if you're interested in LLMs you should learn a minimal amount of linguistics.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jojobas on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:42AM (#35625007)
Surely they don't have built-in compasses, so what would they do in an unfamiliar location on an overcast day?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by cycomanic on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:09AM (#35626016)
Actually I reca reading some interesting studies where they found that children from these tribes even after turned around blindfolded could readily point out absolute directions. I don't recall reading an explanation, but they did seem to have a better inherent way of orient themselves absolutely.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by playingalong on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:35PM (#35632355)
Although possible, this is not happening to them frequently. The language hasn't optimized for that use case.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bckygldstn on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:19PM (#35622481)
> stage left / stage right

Outdoor recreation often uses climbers left/right and skiers left/right (even when there's no rock or snow) to orient direction relative to slope, which is similarly descriptive and clear to those who haven't heard the terms before.

Except for rivers, where True Left and True Right are commonly used in New Zealand for hiking and kayaking, and I can never remember which way round they go!

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wldcordeiro on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:57AM (#35624393)
I hear skiers left/right or looker's left/right often. Usually looker's is said while on the lift or the base of the mountain.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by themeiguoren on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:25AM (#35627257)
Climber’s right doesn’t make sense to me as distinguished from looker’s right, since both perform the named activity facing the slope.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yowzadave on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:43PM (#35622664)
Interestingly, on tennis courts you have the “deuce” side, which is to the right of the player, and the “ad” side, which is to the left of the player. Because you have two players facing each other, the deuce sides for each player are diagonally opposite from a neutral observer’s perspective.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by matt-attack on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @08:48PM (#35622697)
Interesting. I always assumed “stage left” meant from the perspective of looking at the stage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:31PM (#35623961)
> theatrical world takes an intermediate approach, where they use the terms "stage left / stage right”

Same for skiers’ left and right.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by azepoi on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @11:58PM (#35624087)
In french theatre has specific words for left and right. Côté cour et Côté jardin. Courtside and garden side.

In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by compiler-guy on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:36AM (#35624280)
Which makes for some very confusing situations when the river is twisty. There are different places in New Orleans where the West Bank is south of you, west of you, and east of you.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by public_defender on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:41AM (#35624637)
Ironically that city's four cardinal directions of "Uptown," "Downtown," "Lakeside," and "Riverside" are completely unambiguous.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dmurray on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:23AM (#35624885)
That's exactly because they didn't follow the convention. If they called it the Right Bank, it would always be clear which side that was if you could identify the flow of the river.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by batiudrami on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:04AM (#35624120)
Rail uses “up” and “down main” where up is in the direction of the port or main terminus.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by iggldiggl on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:05PM (#35629872)
In Germany it's just direction "a" (kilometrage increasing) and direction "b" (kilometrage decreasing), though I think that usage isn't quite as prominent as Up/Down is in the UK and UK-influenced countries. In Romania AFAIK they're calling them direction "X" and direction "Y" instead.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dotancohen on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:37AM (#35624971)
> In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow

Isn't there some river where the flow goes either way depending on tide? I'm thinking it might be in Alaska, but there might be more than one.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by hutzlibu on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:47AM (#35625050)
There are surely more than one, but this happens only close to the sea and the general flow of the river is still into the sea.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by saalweachter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:33AM (#35625389)
The Hudson River is tidal up past Poughkeepsie.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jefftk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:50AM (#35626257)
Farther than that! It's tidal past Albany and only fully stops at the dam in Troy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_River
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Steve44 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:39AM (#35625426)
The Thames is tidal in London so the water does 'flow' both ways, but I'm fairly sure you'd say it flows towards the river but London is on a tidal section.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Someone on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:44AM (#35625464)
Tides coming in is normal, but there are rivers that change direction for other reasons. The Chicago River and the Mississippi can change direction due to storm surges, for example (for the Chicago River, that temporarily returns it to its flow direction, into Lake Michigan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_River#Course))

A better example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonl%C3%A9_Sap#Geography:

“As the monsoon rain begins, the water level of the river begins to rise. As the water level continues to rise, the flow of the river reverses. The water level of the Tonlé Sap increases by about 10 metres (33 ft), the flow of the Mekong gradually decreases at the end of the rainy season, and the flow of the Tonlé Sap then reverses and began to replenish the flow of the Mekong.”

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by seszett on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:46AM (#35625884)
Even where it happens (it's common, the cases I know personally are Nantes or Antwerp) it's still obvious which side is right and which side is left, it's simply according to the main flow of the river.

Although in this instance, I think it's more common to talk about north/island/south in Nantes rather than left/right banks. While Antwerp's part on the left bank is literally called "left bank" (Linkeroever).

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by alexchamberlain on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:14AM (#35625254)
When kayaking, I'd have referred to the banks as "river left" and "river right" to mean the same thing.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:38AM (#35626203)
In one of Tim Snyders Yale lectures on Ukrainian history, goes overboard about the left bank/right bank in respect of the Dniepro. The river runs north to south, so the right bank is basically the west. I strongly suspect he has trouble telling his left from his right; I've read an essay in which there is a map with a small patch of Russia (coloured red) in the bottom-left, but the caption says it's bottom-right.

I suspect the reason he made a meal of this subject (and the reason he insists on using the left/right terminology) is because he finds it challenging.

I learned it with the Seine, in Paris: the left bank is to the south of the right bank. It's also where the bulk of the 1968 political protest happened; the protestors were leftists. The Seine generally flows south to north, emptying into the English Channel.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rcthompson on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:33AM (#35624269)
The advantage of using separate words for the frame of reference of the boat is that you can still use left and right with their normal meanings as well.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by InCityDreams on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:39AM (#35624293)
"It'll be starboard side, hung up on the left."
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by usrbinbash on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:34AM (#35625393)
But I can also say:

"I'm on the left side of the boat, and hold an apple in my left hand." The boat has a clearly distinguishable bow and stern, so it provides a frame of reference.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rcthompson on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:43AM (#35626957)
"Left side of the boat" is a lot more syllables than "port". And using different words makes it less likely that the listener will be confused by multiple uses of the same word to mean different things.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yafbum on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:43AM (#35624319)
In medicine there is one obviously very important perspective, and in theatre two. But mariners still need words for relative left and right directions all around them, like "the preferred channel is to the left of the buoy" (the channel and the buoy don't have port or starboard sides, and it wouldn't be useful to communicate about their relative angle as seen by the boat's crew).
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mhandley on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:05AM (#35624435)
>like "the preferred channel is to the left of the buoy"

While this is true, we (at least in England) would normally say "leave the buoy to starboard" (though when racing we'd call it a 'mark' rather than a buoy). Perhaps it's habit, I'm not sure, but it's generally unambiguous.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yafbum on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:10AM (#35624473)
Same in the US. But only if you were actually going there, not if you're just describing what's around you!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by manarth on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:15AM (#35625260)
> the channel and the buoy don't have port or starboard sides

In the context of a channel, the buoys (marks) are coded port and starboard, coloured red and green, and shaped like a can or a cone respectively.

When navigating a channel into harbour, the port marks are left to the port of the ship, and the starboard marks to starboard.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by midasuni on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:40AM (#35625437)
Red right returning
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by manarth on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:28AM (#35626463)
A nice, solid, memorable rule, which works all the time. Just like "I before E except after C".

Except when weird species seize their feisty foreign neighbours.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by roelschroeven on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:51AM (#35625909)
But be careful, because there are two configurations for lateral marks, called Region A and Region B, as defined by IALA.

In Region A (Europe, Greenland, Africa, most of Asia, most of Oceania) port marks are red and starboard marks are green.

In Region B (North and South America, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Taiwan) port marks are green and starboard marks are red.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by niccl on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:39AM (#35624627)
And sometimes you get Prompt Side and Opposite Prompt, which are _usually_ stage left and stage right respectively, but it depends on the theatre, with some having the prompt on the stage right.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:41AM (#35624639)
> Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.

Understatement of the week... pretty much everything on a boat has a different word for it. Often for practical reasons, sometimes purely traditional reasons. It is nice because it binds one to nautical tradition leading back centuries/millenia.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by petersellers on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:07AM (#35624784)
It's also pretty cool that a ton of sailing vocabulary has made its way into common English vernacular. I guess with the UK being the most powerful country in the world at one time (and projecting their power via their Navy) it's not too surprising.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by walthamstow on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:10AM (#35624800)
What are some examples? I am English but I know nothing about the maritime world, so I likely know the words as slang/vernacular terms but not what they mean on a ship.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:39AM (#35624984)
bow, boom, tack, hitch, tiller, helm, etc :)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by endtime on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:50AM (#35625068)
How many of these have common non-nautical uses? I don't think I ever use any of these terms, or hear anyone else use them, in common speech.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dagw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:06AM (#35625199)
I hear people use "at the helm" and "change tack" to mean being in charge of something and changing direction or approach, respectively. People also "hitch themselves" to things, although I'm not sure that comes directly from the nautical usage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by almostarockstar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:04AM (#35625988)
A "hitch" knot is typically used to fasten around a fixed object. So you might use a hitch to tie the boat to the shore, or tie a line around a wooden (or these days aluminium or carbon fibre) boom. I'm not sure if it's purely nautical.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jrockway on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:15AM (#35625263)
"at the helm" seems like common usage to me. Maybe not in the top 100 idioms, but everyone knows what you mean.

"tiller" is just the thing that controls the position of the rudder, which I think most people know about. (That said, nobody in aviation calls their rudder pedals the "tiller", so it might be a strictly nautical term.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by willyt on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:49AM (#35625507)
I think they sometimes call the thing that steers the nose wheel the tiller.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jrockway on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:16PM (#35630012)
Yup, you're exactly right. I totally forgot about that. Thinking about it more, the rudder and tiller might be different things on ships too; I think a rudder you turn right to go right, and a tiller you turn left to go right, because of where the pivot point is?

It's a good thing I'm not at the helm ;)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by willyt on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:46AM (#35742768)
On a boat the rudder is technically the blade that cuts through the water and the tiller is the thing that gives you enough leverage to apply force to control the direction of the rudder as it passes through the water; sometimes quite a lot of force is needed! Only quite small boats have tillers that you can directly manipulate. Larger boats typically have a wheel which controls hydraulic rams which manipulate the ‘tiller’
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by phone8675309 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#35628571)
Tiller was popular at least in the 1960s - see the Cat Stevens/Yousef album "Tea for the Tillerman"
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:01AM (#35625161)
Generally agree although there's a case for "taking a different tack".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Friday April 21, 2023 @01:40AM (#35650128)
bow is a fun one, if you don't bow when tacking and the boom swings over then boom!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Friday April 21, 2023 @01:43AM (#35650144)
Boats are noisy and dangerous places at times, I wonder if the lexicon arose organically or intentionally on the ability to hear them clearly to avoid misunderstanding. Any pirates care to comment?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by swiftcoder on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:13AM (#35624824)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by OJFord on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:44AM (#35625022)
To rig something up, to go overboard, to leave something in your wake.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chii on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:02AM (#35625166)
It's interesting that farming/agriculture and sailing both have left the legacy of their words into the language. It goes to show how important these industries are to civilization.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by coldtea on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:54AM (#35625932)
The most important ones? Without internet we could live a cushy little 20th century existance.

Without farming/sailing we'd go 20000 years back

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by OJFord on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:59AM (#35626671)
The sheer number of people (thinking particularly historically, pre-industrialisation) involved in them I suppose.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rapnie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:49AM (#35625905)
Let's go full steam ahead, and dredge up some more.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:39AM (#35626533)
> steam

That's the hallmark of industrialization, right there :).

In case anyone thinks the important bits stopped at the age of sail.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by nicky0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:49AM (#35625066)
Have a read (or listen to the brilliantly read audiobook) of Master and Commander, and the subsequent series of novels by Patrick O'Brien. Apart from being entertaining historical novels, you learn a lot about naval life and terminology. Reading them I am struck by just how much nautical lingo made its way into common English usage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by drpixie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:16AM (#35625690)
And if you like the O'Brien books, read the C.S. Forester "Horatio Hornblower" books - historically & nautically accurate and very readable.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bouvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:39AM (#35625850)
Having read the _excellent_ series in English, it was amusing for me to see the movie in a Danish cinema, where the incomprehensible English maritime jargon was translated to incomprehensible Danish maritime jargon.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by aequitas on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:44AM (#35625873)
I'd also recommend watching The Terror (season 1) and play Return of the Obra Dinn. Though both contain fantasy elements, there's lots of nautical lore to be found.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by PJ_Maybe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:13AM (#35625245)
One I like is the phrase "the tell-tale signs", which refers to a sailing boat's tell-tales. These are small strings attached to the sails to indicate if the sail needs to be trimmed for optimal performance.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by carlmr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:45AM (#35625477)
I always just imagined that it was signs that tell a tale. And the online etymology dictionary seems to confirm that.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/telltale

>also tell-tale, "discloser of secrets," 1540s, from tell (v.) + tale. As an adjective from 1590s. Phrase tell a tale "relate a false or exaggerated story" is from late 13c.

Is it maybe that the nautical term comes from plain English?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Digit-Al on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:34AM (#35625816)
Quite a lot of folk etymology tries to, incorrectly, assign nautical origins to common words and phrases. I used to read a column by an etymologist that jokingly referred to this using the term CANOE - the Committee to Assign a Nautical Origin to Everything :-)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by nostromo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:21AM (#35625312)
A toilet on a boat is called a head because it was historically placed at the front of the boat.

You’ll still hear folks say “hit the head” referring to using the restroom.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Macha on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:15AM (#35625685)
Regional usage maybe? Never heard that expression in my life
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by gerad on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:21AM (#35625717)
And it was put at the front of the boat because that was downwind of everything else on a wind powered boat.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by cycomanic on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:01AM (#35625977)
I'm not sure that is true, sure the tacking angle of old boat was nowhere close to modern boats, but I would be surprised if they couldnt sail up wind.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pmontra on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:45AM (#35626234)
To go upwind you need a keel (viking ships did) or something that prevents the wind to push the ship away [1]. Sailing against the wind was very important for battle ships. What we have now compared to them is better materials and centuries of improved design which turned into tacking closer to the wind and much better maneuverability. We can change direction in a very short space. However our sailing boats are much smaller, closer to the viking ships than to the galleons [2]

[1] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/56264/when-did-h...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleon

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sergiosgc on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:49AM (#35626250)
You never sail at 0 degrees upwind. When going upwind, the angle is about 30 degrees minimum. Closer than that and you can't inflate the main sail, thus get no power.

30 degrees should be enough to prevent toxic hazards. Sitting on the head on a tilting ship, during upwind sailing, is prone to other hazards though.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Steve44 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:29AM (#35625363)
You could start by learning the ropes.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mjlee on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:15AM (#35625683)
There are some we use in tech every day. The word log (as in logbook/log file) comes from a literal log that was thrown overboard to estimate the speed of the ship for navigation.

After that, there's some fun slang that's nautical. Chockablock comes from the blocks (pulleys) getting jammed on each other when multiple ropes are being worked on. "Not enough room to swing a cat" refers to the Cat o' Nine Tails which was a whip used for punishment on board ships.

Of course, I'm not even including the influx from containerisation! Helm, tiller, etc. etc.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:38AM (#35626922)
Not quite; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_log

Not obvious what it originally meant.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by walthamstow on Thursday April 20, 2023 @07:00AM (#35638345)
Chockablock is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for! These days abbreviated to just 'chocka', at least if my mum is anything to go by. Thanks for your reply
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Dobbs on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:41AM (#35625861)
* * *
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by QuantumYeti on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:52AM (#35625914)
"by and large" and "taken aback" are another couple examples.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chongli on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:21AM (#35626092)
3 sheets to the wind — meaning drunk — comes from sailing. A sheet is a rope used to control a sail. Sheets that are “to the wind” are loose (rather than tied down) so a ship with 3 sheets to the wind is going to be completely out of control and at the mercy of the wind, wandering all over the sea like a drunk person!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by almostarockstar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:23AM (#35626115)
Leeway: The "lee" is the area downwind of a vessel. A lee-shore is a shoreline that the wind blows on to, as opposed to a windward shore that the wind blows off. To give leeway is to allow enough room for a vessel to be blown off course by the wind and avoid danger.

Rig (noun): The mast and supporting stays on a boat. (oil rigs, "big rig" come from this I think).

Rig (verb): To put the sails up and tie on the sheets and other lines that control sails. ("Let's rig this up." == "Let's set this up.")

Posh (my favourite, though I doubt it's actually true): Port Out Starboard Home. When travelling from England to India around the tip of Africa, it was favourable to have a cabin on the port side on the way to India and starboard on the way back as it would be in the shade most of the time and a little cooler in the sun, with a view of the land.

See also: Change tack / try a different tack, right the ship, stay the course, (to be) swamped, "At a rate of knots" (very fast), keep an even keel, keel over.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by unwind on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:50AM (#35626612)
That is pretty cool!

Swedish (also picking a lot from German, of course) has the same word ("lä", and no I'm not going to try to describe the pronunciation) but our usage is wider in scope. In Swedish lä is simply "out of the wind", and not restricted to use onboard a vessel. Cool, didn't know that about English.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ttepasse on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:56AM (#35626653)
I too doubt the posh etymology: If you’re sailing around the cape by definition you will have crossed the equator twice, meaning your calculation of the sun positions will change. Acronyms pronounces as words seem more a modern 20th century thing.

Wiktionary talks about posh coming from the Romani language, meaning half, in monetary terms, as in half a crown. Seems believable to me, a lot of modern terms come from traveller’s languages and argots and such. See also tory and whig.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by blackshaw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:27AM (#35627861)
The "posh" one is commonly repeated, but there's no evidence it's true: https://www.etymonline.com/word/posh#etymonline_v_18515
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chewxy on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:38AM (#35626202)
In Malaysian/Singaporean English there's a term: gostan (read "go stun"), which means to reverse. I was curious about it's etymology and went to research it. It came from "go astern", with "astern" being the back of a ship. I imagine this must be a phrase the English speaking colonists must have used quite a lot in the 17th century
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by closewith on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:45AM (#35627446)
If your code is anything like mine, it might be junk, a term for worn rope.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TacticalCoder on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:27AM (#35628600)
I'll go with "anchor".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:15PM (#35630728)
> What are some examples?

We're going to need some leeway on the requirements for this project in order to finish on schedule otherwise we'll have to change tacks on the plan.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by munificent on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:40PM (#35631020)
A truly huge number of nautical terms have entered normal parlance. Some are so deeply engrained that we don't even realize they were originally nautical metaphors. Examples:

* Taken aback

* Above board

* Adrift or at sea

* Afloat versus underwater

* Ahead

* All hands

* Anchored

* Awash

* Batten down the hatches

* Bitter end

* Boiler room

* Buoyed up

* By and large

I stopped after B. Also, "cut of your jib", of course.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:01PM (#35635864)
To add to the list, strike (as in to refuse to work as a protest). In nautical terminology, to "strike" something is to lower it- sailors demanding better conditions or higher pay would lower their ship's sails and refuse to go to sea.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by narrator on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:35AM (#35625399)
One interesting thing about middle ages technologies, like boats, is that the words in the different romance languages for things invented in this era are very different from each other. Words that refer to older things have more latin roots. For example, in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different[1]. Other examples of middle ages words that are very different: windmill = molino, wheelbarrow = carretilla. Very newly created words also are similar because of all the english loan words. E.g computer= la computadora.

[1] https://www.spanish.academy/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-nauti...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:53AM (#35625928)
> windmill = molino

I don't know Spanish, but "molino" looks like French "moulin", which is a mill; a windmill is "moulin a vent".

So I reckon "very different" is an exaggeration.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by roveo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:02AM (#35625979)
I imagine this word should be of Indoeuropean origin, Eastern Slav words for a mill also contain m-l-n (e.g. melnitsa).

Modern English lost the "n" part, but it was present in Middle English, milne.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ivanhoe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:15AM (#35626050)
yes, it's "mlin" or "mlyn" in a number of Slavic languages, and I just looked up it's etymology in Serbian and the book says it comes from old slavic "mъlinъ" which they say comes from the Latin root "molinum"
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ivanhoe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:08AM (#35626013)
and Italian "il mulino"... it all comes from Latin "molinum" for the mill (and "mola" for the grind stone used in mills)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#35626803)
The name of Thor's hammer "mjolnir" (as english speakers would see it) did not come through latin though, so the the version of the word in germanic languages was inherited independently.

"Mjolnir" means something like "crusher" and the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up". For example, it can be combined as vetemjöl (wheat flour) or stenmjöl (ground stone or stone powder).

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:01AM (#35627077)
> the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up"

Ah - "mjol" as flour must be cognate with "meal". I hadn't previously associated meal with mills, but it makes sense.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by hnbad on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:10AM (#35627701)
As another data point: meal/flour is "Mehl" in German. Mehl/meal is milled in a Mühle/mill.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:54PM (#35635822)
Flour was originally only the highest quality grade- the "flower"- of ground grain.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by vidarh on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#35628244)
Meal appears to be a cognate of Old Norse "mál" ("mål", "måltid" - meal, meal time - in modern Norwegian) rather than mjol. Compare also Mehl (flour) vs Mahl (meal) in German.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Friday April 21, 2023 @11:44AM (#35655497)
Both meanings exist in English - "stonemeal" or "oatmeal" for example.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pezezin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:19AM (#35626412)
Yes, "molino" is just mill. Windmill would be "molino de viento" and watermill "molino de agua".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by NeoTar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:39AM (#35626532)
An in German - Mühle... in fact the English Mill is pretty close too!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by stratosgear on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:30AM (#35627307)
And in Greek: μύλος. With latin characters: milos. So it seems the root of the word is the same...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pantulis on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:58AM (#35625960)
Just a point, "starboard" sounds pretty similar to "estribor".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pmontra on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:10AM (#35626021)
Molino is mulino in Italian. Ancient Greek and Latin had similar words starting with mol-. Given the importance of that technology I'm not surprised that the word didn't change much. English' mill is also close to the romance languages. [1]

Port and starboard used to be "babordo" and "tribordo" in Italian but they were replaced by "sinistra" (the very word used to say "left") and "dritta".

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mill#Etymology_1

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kwhitefoot on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:25AM (#35626123)
Babord is port in Norwegian. But starboard is styrbord which makes a lot of sense because the steering board, or oar, is on the steersman's right side.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:50AM (#35626258)
Babord is also used in French
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by stefncb on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:59AM (#35626307)
We use "tribord" and "babord" in romanian.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by oesexe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:02AM (#35626692)
Danish as well. I didn’t see it mentioned, so I will add: that back then, a ship could not moor along the key on starboard/styrbord side. So it had to be the other side: hence the English port side.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#35626502)
Babor y estribor in Spanish. In Spanish we used to say "siniestra", now we say "izquierda", a loanword from Basque 'ezkerra'.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by russellbeattie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:26AM (#35626128)
In Spain a computer is an ordenador. Spaniards hate anglicisms. Car is coche, not carro, email is correo electronico, zipper is cremallera. Lots of others.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xxs on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:44AM (#35626229)
>ordenador

you mean unlike French?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#35626267)
Is carro used more in Mexico then ?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#35626503)
Carro is not used in Spain at all.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:38AM (#35626529)
It's used, but for the old ones with horses.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:40AM (#35626539)
Exactly, but don't ask Manolo Escobar about it, since it's somewhat of a sensitive issue for him.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by el-salvador on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:00PM (#35629828)
> It's used, but for the old ones with horses.

This was new for me.

The Spanish words carro, carreta, coche, carretilla, carrito all mean "something that has wheels on it", but the meaning keeps changing between car, horse drawn carriage, baby stroller, shopping cart, horse drawn cart or toy car between countries.

Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:09PM (#35630656)
> Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.

What/where are the misunderstandings for sorbeto?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by el-salvador on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:05PM (#35633332)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by SilasX on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:28AM (#35628614)
Similar for computadora (rather than ordenador) in Latin America:

https://www.woodwardspanish.com/how-to-say-computer-spanish-...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626277)
Lots more Galicisms in Spain for sure :) probably easier to share words when you also share a land border.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TRiG_Ireland on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:11AM (#35626369)
Do Spanish-speaking and French-speaking areas actually share a border? I thought there was a buffer zone of Catalan and Basque. I'll need to check a map.

On checking, it looks like there is a short (but very mountainous) border: https://maps-spain.com/maps-spain-geography/spain-language-m...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:36AM (#35626511)
Don't be mislead by that map, everybody in those regions that say "Basque" or "Catalan" know Spanish perfectly well.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TRiG_Ireland on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:06AM (#35626346)
English car comes from Latin, actually, but Latin picked it up from Celtic (cf. Breton karr).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/car

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:36AM (#35626507)
We use email too in Spain. It's shorter. And parking instead of "estacionamiento".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#35626265)
However in peninsular Spanish, computer = ordenador, the loan word is the French “ordinateur”.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626273)
Mexican spanish should not be the reference for what is said in spanish
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by aae42 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:41AM (#35626548)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bee_rider on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:48AM (#35627474)
Mexico & USA, language taking over buddies. We just need to grow Quebec, so we can get the full set over here. Long way to go, though…
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:14AM (#35629178)
because numbers don't matter. Just like Quebecois would not be the reference for the French language, even if it somehow outgrew the French speaking population in France
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:55AM (#35626283)
Cheese is an interesting one - I would expect Spanish to share the word with French and Italian but it’s actually closer to English and Dutch.

French fromage Italian formagio

Spanish queso English cheese Dutch kaas

Languages are so weird :)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by marvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:32AM (#35626494)
In the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium.

My French relatives however, insist that this is not real cheese, as it is not fermented. But the Norwegian language has no such distinction -- the 'brunost' is an instance of 'mysost'; 'cheese produced from whey'. This is no less real cheese than the one you ferment from caseine.

This naturally led me down a rabbit hole of etymological investigation.

The best conclusion I've reached so far, is that the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine, naturally refer to cheeses that would mostly be fermented, as this is what happens with the solid caseine when you leave it around for a bit. Whereas Norwegian 'ost', stemming from 'yste', the verb for separating the caseine from the whey, makes no such distinction.

And ironically, the Latin-stemming words 'fromage', 'formagio', stem from Latin 'formicum'; something that is cast in a form. Having nothing at all to do with fermentation or even milk!

There are two conclusions here, one being that the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words.

The second conclusion is that my French relatives are wrong and brown cheese is in fact fromage. But not cheese, I will concede as much.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:48AM (#35626600)
> the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine

Casein was not discovered before cheese was. 'kase' doesn't refer to casein. Casein, the family of proteins, is named after cheese, the milk product consisting in large part of those proteins.

And 'kase' is not a Germanic root. Fromage descends from the Latin word for "shape". 'kase' descends from the Latin word for "cheese".

> There are two conclusions here, one being that the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words.

This isn't right either. Tin soldiers must be cast, but they are obviously not cheese, and therefore they are also not fromage. The etymology of the word tells you nothing about its meaning.

(The conclusion is fine, but drawing it from this evidence is not -- if you translate French fromage as "cheese", you're not missing any subtle distinctions. It means cheese.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by marvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:03AM (#35626701)
Do you have references for the last of your claims? I thought I did a reasonably exhaustive search for a layperson, but the sources I found could certainly be wrong. My hobby searches in this area have led me to conclude that etymology isn't a hard science, and ultimately one will arrive at someone's qualified opinion about something.

The relation between 'kase' and casein is very fair; cheese production obviously predates protein chemistry. I guess what I was trying to say was that the words are related, but if 'kase' derives from Latin for 'cheese', the rabbit hole continues. Why does the French word derive from shape, if the Romans already had a word for cheese? And what did their definition of cheese include?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:04AM (#35627097)
> Why does the French word derive from shape, if the Romans already had a word for cheese?

This is not a question that it's possible to answer. Languages change.

Why is the modern English term dog, a word of no known origin, instead of the native (still extant, but not really alive) term hound?

> Do you have references for the last of your claims? I thought I did a reasonably exhaustive search for a layperson, but the sources I found could certainly be wrong.

Assuming you're referring to the claim that the English word "cheese" (and the similar terms in other Germanic languages) is derived from an ancient borrowing of the Latin word caseus, meaning "cheese", I was not able to find any source that didn't confirm it. Wiktionary will tell you this. etymonline will tell you this. The OED will also tell you this:

> Forms: 1 cese, cyse, 2 cease, cæse, 5 schese, 6 chease, cheise, chiese, ches, 2–6 chese, 4, 6– cheese. [OE. (Anglian) cése, (WSax.) *cíese, cýse (with i- umlaut from céasi, cǽsi) = OHG. châsi (MHG. kæse, Ger. käse), OLG. kâsi, kêsi (MDu. kâse, Du. kaas):—WGer. *kâsi, ad. L. cāse-us cheese (bef. 5th c.).]

Where were you checking that didn't say this?

If you want a reference to the fact that the Latin word caseus means "cheese", try here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by soylentcola on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:05AM (#35628298)
Is this why cheese (I believe via Roman Latin) is also 'cacio'?

I'm only familiar due to 'cacio a pepe'.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:30PM (#35634607)
Yes.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:31AM (#35626880)
> the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words

Good point. I have yet to see a dictionary that also provides delineation with similar-but-different words and describes the differences.

That'd be very useful for language learners, as colloquial use often eschews definition in favor of socially common convention. I.e. "That word does mean that, but you would never use it in that way"

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bcbrown on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:02PM (#35634818)
I'm not certain that this is exactly what you're talking about, but one of my dictionaries (Webster's New International, 1916) includes this under the entry for Authentic, which brings me great joy:

Authentic, Genuine. The prevailing sense of authentic is authoritative, trustworthy, with the implication of accordance with fact; as "confirmed both by legend and authentic record" (Froude); "assurances more or less authentic" (Wordsworth); an authentic portrait. The prevailing sense of Genuine is native, real, true (see Real), often with the implication of descent from, or correspondence to, an original source or stock; as, a genuine merino, genuine piety; "true simplicity and genuine pathos" (Wordsworth); cf (colloq.) "the genuine article" with "the real thing." Both terms are used - genuine more frequently than authentic - as opposed to spurious, counterfeit, apocryphal; as "Let them contrast their own fantastical personages ... with the authentic rustics of Burns" (Jeffrey); "What is genuine knowledge and what is its counterfeit" (J.H. Newman). The 18th century distinction between the two terms, as applied to documents - "A genuine book is that which was written by the person whose name it bears as the author of it; an authentic book is that which relates matters of fact as they really happened" (Bp. Watson) - while still often observed, is becoming obliterated in present usage; as "The criticism which thus so freely diminishes the numer of his [Giorgione's] authentic works" (W. Pater); "Some collectors frankly take the ground that they buy what pleases them, and that age and authenticity are minor considerations" (The Nation). See Real, Correct.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:50PM (#35635440)
Wow! I'd be fascinated how many person-hours went into that entry.

On the whole, Wikipedia et al. are improvements in comprehensiveness and timeliness, but god damn do the gems of prior methods still shine brightly.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bcbrown on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:07PM (#35635906)
Webster's first dictionary was a one-man project and took 26 years. He learned 28 languages in order to research the etymologies. This New International is my favorite of the handful I own. I learned about it from https://jsomers.net/blog/dictionary, which I learned about here, on HN. I just re-submitted it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35635876

Here's one more entry, on synonyms of Intention:

Intention, Intent, Purpose, Design, Aim, Object, End are here compared in their general senses; for technical definitions, see defs. Intention, which often suggests little more than what one means or proposes to do, implies less settled determination than Purpose, less definite plan or prearrangment than Design, which frequently adds the implication of crafty or artful scheming; as "She had not had an intention or a thought of going home, until she had announced it to him as a settled design" (Dickens); his intentions are good; cf. to declare one's intentions; "My purpose holds to sail beyond the sunset, and the baths of all the western stars, until I die" (Tennyson); "I go amongst the buildings of a city and I see a man hurrying along - to what? The creature has a purpose and his eyese are bright with it" (Keats); "envious commands, invented design to keep them low" (Milton); "Should he find me here, [he] would discover my name, and perhaps my designs, to the rest of the family" (Goldsmith); cf. "designing lovers" (id.). Intent is chiefly legal or poetical; as, intent to deceive, kill; "the power of a sublime intent" (Shelley). Aim emphasizes directness of purpose, Object that on which activities are focused, End that towards which they tend as their consequence or final cause; as, "to [his trust] keeps faithful with a singleness of aim" (Wordsworth); "her steadiness and courage in the pursuit of her aims" (J.R. Green); "Yet in the task of luxury of freedom I began to wish for the daily task, the active pursuit, which gave a value to every book, and an object to every inquiry" (Gibbon); the object of education, a man without an object in life; "I see in part that all, as in some piece of art, is toil cooperant to an end" (Tennyson); "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever" (Westminster Catechism). See Cause, Effect, Plan, Voluntary.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yencabulator on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:20PM (#35735758)
Yes, and figuring out the differences is sometimes a challenge for English-as-second-language people. Finnish uses one word for both foot and leg, and if you want to say foot you say "leg table" (the horizontal part of the leg). Similar with hand/arm. In the other direction, Finnish has separate words for the front and back of your neck (and I don't mean just throat).

If I kick my foot on a rock, I may say something out loud about hurting my leg. That doesn't sound right to native speaker.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yencabulator on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:15PM (#35735713)
Wiktionary says fromage comes from Latin for "mould", cheese might come from Proto-Indo European "to ferment, become sour" but this is contested, and ost comes from Proto-Indo European "sap"/"juice"/"broth", seen also in Latin ius="gravy"/"broth"/"soup"/"sauce".

See e.g. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheese

Interestingly, the pronounciation guide for origin of ost is /ˈjus.tɑz/ which seems a lot like the Finnish word for cheese, "juusto".

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dendriti on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:06AM (#35626347)
This tracks, actually - Spain (or Spanish monarchs) ruled the Netherlands for over 170 years.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:43AM (#35626566)
That doesn't appear to be related. The word is not Germanic; Spanish is using the word it inherited from Latin, while English and Dutch are using the same word, borrowed from Latin.

In other words, the reason that Spanish is similar to English/Dutch here is that they borrowed the Spanish word, becoming more like Spanish. The reason Italian and French aren't similar to Spanish is that they changed while Spanish didn't.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by copperx on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:27AM (#35626866)
Really? in French, starboard is tribord, and in Spanish, it's estribor. Port is bâbord, and in Spanish, it's babor.

How are they different?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mejutoco on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:04AM (#35627096)
In Spain the computer is el ordenador. Port and starboard are babor y estribor (similar to French).

I think it is more about who introduced these words. Etymology is fascinating.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mattigames on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:15AM (#35627189)
In the 90s in Colombia (perhaps all LATAM) we used "ordenador" but quickly fell out of use in favor of "computador", now only few old people occasionally call it "ordenador" in this country.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:17PM (#35630738)
> in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different

Indeed. Spanish is my native language but I learned sailing in the US so my nautical vocabulary is all in English. I feel completely illiterate on a Spanish speaking boat.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bottled_poe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:20AM (#35626419)
This reminds me of the design of aircraft cockpits. Controls are deliberately designed to look and feel different so they cannot be easily confused (in itself a lesson for UI/UX design) - something which has caused aviation incidents in aircraft which have had consistently designed controls.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by BigCryo on Thursday April 20, 2023 @08:30AM (#35638956)
*Cough cough* rum, sodomy, and the lash *cough cough*
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kaapipo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:03AM (#35624757)
In theatrical context, they also use "house left" and "house right" for similar effect but with a different perspective
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by swader999 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:09AM (#35624795)
At a ski hill, it's skiers left/right so you know it's from the reference of someone going down the hill. Drivers side, passenger side...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ioseph on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:15AM (#35624847)
Some medical terms become hugely helpful when receiving a massage: "more medial, more lateral"
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:19AM (#35625301)
If you're inside a ship, it's often hard to say what way around you are: "left" and "right" have utility for the perspective of a person onboard. Port and starboard are the onboard equivalent of North/South/East/West when walking on land, especially if you're inside a building with no windows for external reference.

This is unlike for a doctor, where it's obvious which side is which: you can see the patient.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:27AM (#35625353)
> This is unlike for a doctor, where it's obvious which side is which: you can see the patient.

This isn’t always true and it’s not always obvious.

For example with imaging - axial slices of the patient through symmetrical structures. The brain, lower abdo, a single leg or arm etc, etc. There are conventions in image display for a reason - it is not obvious.

For axial slices, as an observer, you are positioned as though at the foot of the patient’s bed. Your right is the patients left.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by eloisant on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:48AM (#35625498)
I don't know, when you're talking about "the right arm", it seems obvious that it's the patient's right arm and not the arm that you see on your right when you're looking at the patient. I don't think you need to go to medical school to understand that.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ChrisRR on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:57AM (#35625558)
Assumptions like this is how errors are made.

Don't make assumptions, codify it.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rprospero on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:12AM (#35625662)
You're right that "the left lung" should obviously be the lung on the patient's left. However, can you look at the image below and immediately identify which is the "left" lung?

https://scratch.rprosperoglobal.duckdns.org/lungs.png

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:57AM (#35625952)
I think I can, maybe. However I’m a radiographer and pictures like this are my job.

The orientation is screwed up and images should almost never be displayed like this.

If the patient’s organs are in non-standard locations (situs inversus, dextrocardia etc), something very bad will happen when orientations are messed with. Use standard orientations and label the images.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rprospero on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:36AM (#35626189)
I fully agree with you. I was mostly posting as an example that "left is the patient's left" is not sufficient without other standards (like image orientation).
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:58PM (#35631232)
And that went straight over my head.

Your point was well made.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by adql on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:42AM (#35626557)
...you just expect random readers to know how lung looks on (i assume) MRI, from (I assume) top ?

I'd also assume it would be simple to spot just because the image is always took from the same direction so the narrow part points out to front/back of the patient

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by blowski on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:19AM (#35625708)
It’s obvious 99% of the time, but that 1% equates to a lot of fatal errors.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:04AM (#35625989)
Shouldn't doctors simply use the Greek or Latin words for left and right?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626271)
Latin: sinister and dexter, I think they are used for parts of organs (eg liver); one source notes occulus sinister being used in the abbreviation OS for left eye.

Greek dexios and aristeros ... well dexter come from dexios", as does the chemical suffix -dextrin. Aristeros* is a euphemism, it means something like "best" (I wonder if that's the origin of 'put your best foot forward') ... I'm told that left-sided things were unlucky to the Greek speaking peoples and Greek language apparently compensated by describing that position positively.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by WorldMaker on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:30PM (#35632932)
The "left-side are unlucky" thing affects the Latin example as well as the Greek, at the very least in the way that English derived words get used: compare "dexterous" (modern English connotations of "able, agile") versus "sinister" (modern English connotations of "evil, subversive").

It's an interestingly deep rabbit hole in language etymology just how much "left" gets besmirched and "right" gets positive connotations. (The fact that "right" is also a synonym in English for "correct" being another bit of evidence.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ChrisRR on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:55AM (#35625550)
> you can see the patient.

Often not true. In any sort of imaging it can be ambiguous what way the patient is facing

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ajeet_dhaliwal on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:58AM (#35625956)
It just seems like an old convention that has stuck, seem'm much simpler to anyone not familiar with ships to say 'ships left' or 'ships right' than to have new words. We don't do this with cars. You have a left rear door, not a port rear door.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by philo23 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:32AM (#35626172)
I guess some could argue that we do have some special vocabulary for cars too.

E.g. you don't call it the front/back door, you call it the bonnet/boot (or maybe hood/trunk depending where you're from) though that probably is stretching the definition of a door a little bit... but then you also have nearside and offside for passengers/drivers side, though that's probably a bit more of a technical term.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:14AM (#35626395)
I always get confused by nearside and offside. Is it "near to the driver" or "near to the roadside"?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by beardyw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:08AM (#35627681)
Near the roadside.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:53AM (#35626638)
> though that probably is stretching the definition of a door a little bit...

It is, but then so is the stupid "3-door" / "5-door" / etc. car classification, which is really 2-door / 4-door / etc. with the trunk being counted as additional door for some reason.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by garaetjjte on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:20AM (#35627784)
I think it makes sense for hatchbacks, where there's no real trunk/passenger cabin separation.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by vel0city on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:19AM (#35628504)
The trunk is considered a door when it opens into the main cabin instead of a separate compartment.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by modernerd on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:15AM (#35626055)
> We don't do this with cars. You have a left rear door, not a port rear door.

“Driver side rear door” or “passenger side rear door” are pretty common, at least in the US and UK, where they mean the opposite.

“Nearside“ (passenger side nearest curb in a right-hand drive vehicle driving on the right) and “offside” (driver side furthest from curb) are also used in the UK.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by theiz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:20AM (#35626080)
If you ever went 4x4 driving, you use driver / passenger to indicate the direction someone has to go to. This is because the navigation often is done from someone standing outside the car, where using left/right can be rather confusing.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:58AM (#35626302)
In UK a [experienced, older?] driver gives another driver instructions with "right hand down" and "left hand down". That is, you give directions to move the steering wheel.

I've the vaguest recollection that sailing/steam boats used to say which side to move the wheel towards to steer; that begging opposite of the way the boat will go??

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:13AM (#35626384)
For repair instructions this actually causes a lot of confusion for someone in a right hand drive market. Half the time the repair instruction gets it wrong and would have been better saying left or right. Occasionally it is correct though if dealing with a part that's different in each market.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ajeet_dhaliwal on Thursday April 20, 2023 @06:21AM (#35638150)
I don’t know how widespread this is but I don’t do this for the very reason you bring up with differences between countries, I drive in both the UK and Canada most years.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chewxy on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:42AM (#35626217)
Cars are small and for the most part everyone in the car faces the same direction as the car itself. When you have a ship, you have 3 frames of references to contend with (self, ship, cardinal)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sergiosgc on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626276)
Four, actually. You also have the wind frame of reference, which is actually the most important (for sail boats). You don't turn left or right, you turn upwind or downwind.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:17AM (#35626405)
For wind there is leeward (downwind) and windward (upwind). I don't think there are common terms for the 2 crosswind directions though?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sergiosgc on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @08:05AM (#35712374)
I'm not familiar with sail vocabulary in English, but in Portuguese there is only downwind (sotavento) and upwind (barlavento). Functionally you don't need the other two, so I imagine it's similar in English.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tcmart14 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:11PM (#35629944)
Yup. Port and starboard, along with forward and aft are in reference to the center-line of the ship from the perspective of being aft and looking forward. Looking at a top down of the ship from where forward and the forecastle are up, it is left (port) and right (starboard).
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:22AM (#35625319)
> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective.

I was recently involved in a case where a patient decided that their left should be called the right side during a phone consultation as that would help their doctor.

Good times.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:37AM (#35626515)
Is this the story of how someone ended up with one less appendix than they should have?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jdmichal on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:39AM (#35626935)
People only have one appendix to start with. Did you mean appendage?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:55AM (#35627544)
No, that's what I meant, but said in a facetious way. If someone is complaining about lower right abdominal pain that could be the appendix, when lower left would not be.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jdmichal on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:29AM (#35627891)
Ah I get it now. Sorry for the density.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xpe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:10AM (#35628377)
Don’t apologize; we all benefit from a good chuckle.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bell-cot on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:50PM (#35630425)
Unless the patient is one of the 0.01% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situs_inversus
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by runlaszlorun on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:56AM (#35627548)
Perhaps they have -1 now.

Either that or my recent C excursions have me thinking in buffer overruns and index errors.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xpe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:11AM (#35628396)
The official recordbooks will now show that patient is officially the first to lose an appendix but gain a preface.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by OJFord on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:29AM (#35628636)
That would be two less than they should have? Unless you're commenting on its uselessness that they 'should' have zero despite one being normal?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jdmichal on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:33PM (#35630214)
Last I heard, there's an idea that it might help recolonize the gut with good flora after infections and such.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tomxor on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:31AM (#35627323)
That's a particularly strange kind of overthinking, implicitly acknowledging the medical field is complex enough to consult a professional, and yet thinking something as common and (relatively) simple as interpreting left/right from patient descriptions hasn't already been considered.

That's before even getting into the assumption of face to face orientation over a phone... is that in virtual terms, or in terms of absolute orientation, I hope they took into consideration the curvature of the Earth.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by CWuestefeld on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:25AM (#35627844)
As I said elsewhere, but I think it's worth repeating here - In an effort to avoid ambiguity, I always talk to my doctor in terms of "driver's side" and "passenger side" - thus adopting the maritime approach, but in more common terms.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jacquesm on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:39AM (#35627997)
Until you call a doctor in the UK.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jen20 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#35628246)
To whit, having learned to drive on the left, the “easy” turn that does not cross traffic is always a “left” turn to me, regardless of living in a country that drives on the right. Makes giving directions to others quite interesting.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by KMag on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:14PM (#35630701)
I learned to drive in the US, but lived over 10 years in Hong Kong, and have driven in New Zealand and South Africa.

When I first moved to Hong Kong, I kept making eye contact with passengers instead of drivers when crossing the road on foot.

In New Zealand (my first experience driving on the left), I turned on my wipers (on a sunny day) the first couple of times entering a roundabout (the turn signal is on the other side of the steering wheel). Also, I couldn't resist the urge to glance over my left shoulder for oncoming traffic in my blind spot when making left-hand turns, despite the fact that traffic approaching me from there would need to be driving the wrong way down the road.

Thank goodness that the manual shift pattern and pedal layouts are kept the same between left-hand and right-hand drive models. Driving in South Africa could have been a disaster had the shift pattern been reversed.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jacquesm on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:11PM (#35632076)
I drove a Japanese car in NL traffic and whenever I had to downshift for turns in the first couple of hours after switching cars my right hand would slam into the door :)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by amalcon on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#35628254)
I just try to prepend "my". It's usually natural to do this anyway ("my left knee" e.g.) but can always be done ("I fell to my left" instead of "I fell to the left").
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by quartesixte on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:20PM (#35630070)
And then you get a doctor from Japan!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tomxor on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:46PM (#35631095)
That's country specific, maybe you should use port and starboard.

Really though, just use _your_ left and right as most people do, because as has been mentioned, the standard is for doctors to refer to and visualise left and right from the patients perspective - so every time you do something different they have to transform, translate or clarify which increases chance of mistakes.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by johnwalkr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:03AM (#35628274)
It reminds me of a lot of hackernews comments on technical topics from non-software fields.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Workaccount2 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:32AM (#35628670)
Only on HN would the domain of "technical topics" be constrained to software.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:06AM (#35629062)
I have heard stories of patients, entirely on their own, using black markers to indicate which leg/arm was to be operated upon. Surgeons are entirely OK with this. They appreciate it. I also heard a legend of a patient who themselves marked the wrong leg. This wasn't discovered until after sedation. The procedure was canceled until everything was clarified.

When having my arm x-rayed years ago they places a small pad with an embedded metal "L" to indicate that it was my left arm. But if you place the L backwards, then they will think the image has been reversed, which just makes everything more complicated. So the L-pad needed "this side up" label.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lostlogin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:04PM (#35631314)
The letter being revered is a way of indicating if the beam went from the back to front (posterior to anterior) PA or front to back, AP.

X-rays are effectively shadows and things further from the X-ray plate get more magnified. Large structures like the chest benefit from being done a certain way, like having the heart near the plate. That way it’s less magnified.

PA or AP is often a thing you see on the corner of films, indicating the technique.

The film also used to be processed in a film processor, and it was very easy to accidentally flip. This is another reason we have conventions.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by devilbunny on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:29PM (#35632266)
The surgeon has no issue with it because it is essentially universal policy in the US (don't know about other countries but can't imagine they don't have similar) that the surgeon must, prior to sedation, mark the surgical site themselves and put their initials on it. Exceptions are made for cases where there isn't a "side" (you only have one gall bladder), or where the wound is "obvious", or for exploratory surgeries where the actual site of all injuries is not yet known.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by justsomehnguy on Thursday April 20, 2023 @05:14PM (#35646434)
I can add to these stories because one time I needed to overrule my doctors opinion and use a digital interface to point where the problem is. The peoblem involved X-ray.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by atoav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:56AM (#35625553)
As a camera operator or director I always tended to use "your left/right", "my left/right" or "camera left/right". The first two made their way into my everyday speak as well.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dsego on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:20AM (#35625712)
Afaik, this is not the case in all other languages to have specific nautical terms for sides. I asked a sailor friend for the terminology in our language and it's just left side and right side/flank, seems pretty self explanatory, by convention you are orienting forwards. Like any profession though, having specific terminology helps distinguish from the outside group and maintain impression of expertise.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:21AM (#35626096)
> seems pretty self explanatory

On a big ship, like an aircraft carrier or cruiser, you can qite easily lose track of which direction is the prow (front). Many carrier crew rarely go up on deck. And if the ship happens to be sailing astern, left and right become ambiguous.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dsego on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:12AM (#35626380)
> you can qite easily lose track of which direction is the prow

If you don't where the prow is, how do you know where starboard is? I guess if the sailing direction is backwards, it might be confusing if you say "to your left", but if you say "left side", it should still be clear I think, maybe not.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jodrellblank on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:09AM (#35626017)
Then you have cars, where left/right would make perfect sense in all cars from the driver’s perspective but instead people use “nearside” and “offside” which are relative to the kerb while driving[1]. That means it’s relative to which side of the road the country drives on so if you drive a right-hand-drive UK car into mainland Europe, do nearside and offside swap on that car and you need to buy differently named replacement parts?

Always annoying that it could be clearer and more stable and shorter to use the driver’s perspective with “Driver left/right” to be specific and then would be the same sides on all cars moving or parked in any orientation in all countries.

[1] not valid if you turn around and park backwards!

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by closewith on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:22AM (#35626105)
There's also the convention of inside and outside lanes on multilane roads.

In each the UK, Ireland, and the United States, the inside lane is the leftmost lane. However, due to driving on the opposite sides of the road, this means that while the inside lane in the US is closest to the central median, in the UK & Ireland, the inside lane is closet to the curb.

Source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inside-l...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by saiya-jin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:09AM (#35626018)
French (maybe its in english too actually, natives could comment) say rive gauche and rive droit for which bank of the river or lake we talk about. Always taken from perspective of river flowing downhill. Makes sense, just takes some time getting used to when coming from language which doesnt obsess about it that much
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by q1w2 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:45AM (#35627443)
This is true in english also. The right/left bank of a river is always from the perspective of the water flowing/facing downstream.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jimmySixDOF on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:29AM (#35626142)
I remember some time ago Cisco Nexus equipment that had different catalog definitions in the NX series (2000/5000/7000/9000) of the Air Intake definitions of where the "Front" was in a Front to Back fan setup. You literally had to order skus with conflicting descriptions if you wanted a consistent system.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wrigby on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:50AM (#35626259)
I also really like the theatrical world’s convention of “upstage” (further from the audience) and “downstage” (closer to the audience) - disambiguating the front and back of a stage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by scoopr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:55AM (#35626285)
How about always using world relative words?

https://www.naturalnavigator.com/news/2010/09/guugu-yimithir...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qwertox on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:10AM (#35626368)
> in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective.

What if the patient lies on his back vs on his stomach? Theoretically this should then revert left and right in addition to how the doctors are facing the patient, from their point of view.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bearmode on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:13AM (#35626386)
The patient's left and patient's right are always going to be the same, regardless of which way the patient is facing. It'll change it from the doctor's perspective, but that's irrelevant since you're only looking at it from the patient's.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by adql on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:43AM (#35626568)
Your left hand doesn't turn into your right hand if you lie on the bed different way
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qwertox on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:46AM (#35627453)
I am aware of this. But oftentimes patients are completely covered by a green blanked with the exception of a small space of skin. I just thought that this could cause some confusion.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wazoox on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:34AM (#35626499)
In French, starboard and port are "tribord" (same etymology as "starboard", through Dutch) and "bâbord" ("back (of the oarman) board").

On stage, they are "côté cour" and "côté jardin" because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by CWuestefeld on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:26AM (#35627854)
In English, there's an archaic "larboard" meaning "port side". My understanding is that this word was intentionally banished due to confusion originating from the sound being so similar to "starboard".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by red-iron-pine on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:55AM (#35628168)
Makes good sense. Imagine trying to scream that to someone at night in a storm after you've both had a ration of rum.

Probably a non-trivial number of people were hurt or killed because of that linguistic similarity; we see the same with air traffic control and pilots using ambiguous language.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tropicaljacket on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:58AM (#35628944)
this is mentioned in the linked article
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lynguist on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:55AM (#35628163)
In German it’s Steuerbord (meaning the same as starboard) and Backbord (compare Middle Low German ba(c)kbōrt and Dutch bakboort; oldest mention of this form is from old English: bæcbord!)

The word ‘back’ in German meaning ‘back’ in English doesn’t even exist. Only in this one loanword from Low German.

Only today I looked up this word, I never knew or understood that Backbord is literally backboard.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wellanyway on Monday April 24, 2023 @06:59AM (#35685985)
> because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left

That is the most french explanation possible.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#35626802)
I suppose it has to do with how many frames of reference you're juggling in a task/profession. With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame.

Then there's space, where it gets even more fun, as the relevant frames - the ship, the orbit (or the "centre of gravity" of everything pulling on you) - are completely independent. That is, your orientation doesn't matter for the travel direction. Now, not only "right" and "left" are ambiguous - but also "up", "down", "forward" and "backward".

When in orbit, you have "prograde" and "retrograde" to refer to the velocity vector's direction and its opposite; if we dub that "forward" and "backward", then "radial" and "antiradial" are "down" and "up" (i.e. towards / away from the center of orbited body), and then "normal", "antinormal" for "left" and "right", which you can get from the cross product of "forward" and "up".

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:24AM (#35626846)
> With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame.

There's windward (towards/upwind) and leeward (away/downwind).

Are there left and right too?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windward_and_leeward

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by closewith on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:37AM (#35627379)
There's port/starboard tack, where the wind is coming from the port/starboard side of the vessel. It can be confusing because, for example, if a boat on a port tack tacks to port, the result is a starboard tack (once the bow crosses the direction from which the wind is blowing).
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by hgsgm on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:38AM (#35627987)
That has another ambiguity: in wind, directions are presumed to be naming the source of the wind, not the sink.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bell-cot on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:46PM (#35630363)
After your first few hours on deck in foul weather, that one will seem obvious.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by aintgonnatakeit on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:40AM (#35627398)
For wind, you have “lifted” (wind shift that takes you closer to your destination) and “headed” (similar but away) when going to weather. Downwind, it’s a little different as the wind just “shifts” and you trim sails or steer to take advantage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by nickt on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:55AM (#35627540)
And the wind itself backs (anti-clockwise) and veers (clockwise) with height.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lancefisher on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:15AM (#35628446)
What matters to sailors with respect to the wind is the angle which it meets the boat or the orientation of the boat with regard to the direction of the wind. For that there are dedicated names known as the points of sail which include: close hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach, run, and in irons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:39AM (#35629558)
Good point! :)

But points of sail don't have any handedness, correct? I.e. they're mirrored on both sides of the wind.

As mentioned in another comment, tacking (with its active directionality) is probably the closest to handed-terminology.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by lambdatronics on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:14PM (#35635573)
>But points of sail don't have any handedness, correct? I.e. they're mirrored on both sides of the wind.

The right-of-way rules in sailboat racing depend on who is on 'port tack' or 'starboard tack' (ie, they differentiate those mirrored halves). There's nothing physically special, though.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by morcheeba on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:22AM (#35628543)
Even without the wind, the separate words help. In crew (rowed) boats, people sit backwards. And then boats are stored on racks upside-down. It can get complicated!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:51PM (#35635799)
And the British decide to make things more confusing by referring to the sides of the boat as strokeside and bowside.

Strokeside is always port, even if in that particular boat stroke's oar is actually on the starboard side- and even in a sculling boat!

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ryan-allen on Thursday April 20, 2023 @03:54AM (#35637450)
And for some reason half of the world have port and starboard channel markers as red and green, and the other are green and red. I don't know who's fault that is!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by BenFrantzDale on Saturday April 22, 2023 @09:19PM (#35672451)
Windward and upwind are different in my book: windward is anything to the side of the boat opposite the main boom, whereas upwind is you draw a line perpendicular to the wind direction and anything toward the wind from that line is upwind. You could have a mark downwind of you on the windward side if you overshot the last tack before a mark.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by BuyMyBitcoins on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:12AM (#35627713)
I’m curious, have you ever played Kerbal Space Program? Or, are you familiar with orbital mechanics for a different reason? KSP taught me about those terms and familiarized me with the concept.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:20PM (#35634914)
KSP mostly. I did have an interest in the topic since childhood, but KSP is for me what really made the concepts and terminology stick.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by johnwalkr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#35628242)
The convention for orbital spacecraft is that the local coordinate system has +z facing whatever it is orbiting and +x facing travel direction. Then you can refer to directions relative to the spacecraft such as "+x", "-y", etc.

The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth. The payload bay was +z direction. From the layperson's point of view, the shuttle orbited upside down, but from an aerospace engineer's point of view it orbited right side up and landed upside down.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dabluecaboose on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:12AM (#35628404)
That's a convention, but hardly the convention.

I used to work satellite navigation for NOAA. For the GOES sats we often used Intrack (Prograde/Retrograde), Crosstrack (Normal/Anti-normal), and Radial (Towards planet/away from). I don't think anyone really referred to any directions as "plus x" or "minus y"

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by johnwalkr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:45AM (#35629631)
There are different conventions, yes. Even for the shuttle I've seen +z point in the opposite direction in some documents. I work in systems engineering so I'm less exposed to terms used in operations and more in discussions about which part of the spacecraft things are located.

Actually I work on rovers and it's a perennial debate whether to follow spacecraft convention (+z is down) or automotive convention (+z is up). Then mechanical engineers will usually follow what is intuitive on the screen (+z is forward). This is because computer graphics convention is +z facing out of the screen.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dabluecaboose on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:51AM (#35629703)
Yeah, operations is kind of where engineering's best practices go out the window for practicality haha.

We used to tilt the spacecraft when doing inclination burns so that we could get a little bit of intrack delta-v to even out our orbit. I always thought that was delightfully janky.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:02AM (#35629006)
>> The space shuttle normally orbited with it's payload bay, opposite of the landing gear facing Earth

That wasn't a choice. The doors had to remain open and pointing away from the earth so that the radiators could properly dissipate heat. It also, in theory, kept the most important thermal tiles pointing away from incoming space rocks.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by addingnumbers on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:26AM (#35629356)
> The doors had to remain open and pointing away from the earth

It's the opposite. The orbiter usually kept it doors pointed toward Earth and the "bottom" tiles pointed away from Earth, and orbited with its engines pointed prograde. (Upside-down and backward relative to the atmospheric flight people are familiar with)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/12321/why-did-the-...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sizzle on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:35PM (#35630960)
As I suspected from seeing your username over the years, you really are knowledgeable on the topic of temporal space and orientation :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_temporal_space

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jwarden on Thursday April 20, 2023 @06:24AM (#35638173)
Interesting: once you nail down any two axises, the third follows.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tareqak on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:08AM (#35627132)
Would using the phrases “patient-left” and “patient-right” improve outcomes in the case of operating on the wrong side of the body?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by blantonl on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:20AM (#35627212)
Some other persepctives:

"Skier's left/right" for snow skiing. Ambiguity arises when looking uphill or downhill.

When riding on a float in Mardi Gras in New Orleans. You might be on the "driver's side" or "passenger's side". You could also be on the neutral ground side (left) or the other side. Or the rider could be on the "lake side" (left) or the river side (right). Parades run South to North and the Mississippi River would be on the rider's right and Lake Pontchartrain on the left.

Aviation uses a clock face (traffic is at your 2'oclock, northbound) to reference traffic at the pilot's right / front.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by q1w2 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:46AM (#35627451)
Another is the right/left bank of a river always refers to the perspective of the water flowing/facing downstream.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xpe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:19AM (#35628515)
> "Skier's left/right" for snow skiing. Ambiguity arises when looking uphill or downhill.

But what about “snowboarder’s left”… sounds a lot like “starboard’s left” at which everybody on the fake ski slope on the cruise ship gets incredibly confused? We have to drive out all ambiguity here, or people are doing to die.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:03PM (#35635874)
Snowboarder's left is either up or down the slope depending on the snowboarder...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kuon on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:43AM (#35627430)
In french, on stage, it's "cour" (stage left) and "jardin" (stage right), meanings yard and garden.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by CWuestefeld on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:22AM (#35627803)
At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective.

In an effort to avoid ambiguity, I always talk to my doctor in terms of "driver's side" and "passenger side" - thus adopting the maritime approach, but in more common terms.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by gorbypark on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:42AM (#35628032)
In the skiing and mountaineering world we use climbers (sometimes “lookers”) right/left or skiers right/left to differentiate when facing uphill or downhill. I find having both is helpful instead of just having a single standardized one.

For example, if you are standing and looking at a mountain, it’s easier to say “just to the climbers left of that peak” because it’s on the left from your perspective, likewise when descending it best to say “stay to the skiers left of the rock”.

There’s also lots of times it’s good to mix and match, like if you are looking at and discussing a mountain from afar and planning on skiing down it later, you might keep the conversation from a skiers perspective.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tuatoru on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:08AM (#35628341)
And in general hiking, referring to streams and rivers one may follow or cross, there are the "true left" and "true right" banks of the stream. Meaning, left or right looking the way the water is flowing: downstream.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by illegalsmile on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:52AM (#35628869)
We always say "river left" or "river right" but same same.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by altec3 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:32PM (#35631671)
Yep, these are the terms I've always used when whitewater rafting.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pklausler on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:19PM (#35632158)
"East bank" and "west bank" are also used for the sides of a watercourse that flows generally north/south, even for bits of it that are flowing east/west or have curved around to flow south/north. Which is why West St. Paul (Minnesota) is directly south of St. Paul proper -- it's on the "west bank" of the Mississippi, while St. Paul is on the "east bank".

(Same story, mutadis mutandis, for "north bank" and "south bank" of generally east/west-flowing rivers.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xnx on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:49AM (#35628097)
How much has the ambiguity between right (direction) and right (correct) cost the world?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mudita on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:59AM (#35628226)
The German theatre world developed the opposite convention, “Bühne links” (literally "stage left”) means left from the perspective of the audience.

I don’t know so much about the theatre world, I’m a professional dancer, but at least the dance scene is increasingly international, switching fluently between English or German depending on the people present; some people learned the English/international convention, some - especially older - directors know mainly the German convention, some people are not aware that there are different conventions in English and German and the result is complete chaos.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mwsfc on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:00PM (#35629823)
I would venture a guess the logic in some of these cases has a healthy does of practical wisdom baked in. On sailing vessels they are/were? chaotic, violent, noisy, and the crew perhaps wasn't the most experienced/educated(?) so keeping things simple with fixed names was perhaps the optimal safety solution in that environment. In the medical profession it's about the Hippocratic Oath (I am not a doctor), an operating room is more controlled, and everyone (is usually) well trained, so maybe in that environment it makes more sense to make a rule that the perspective should always be the patients? Thinking out loud here more than anything...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by simonh on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:07PM (#35629892)
Left and Right didn't have their modern meaning back then. In Old English riht meant straight, as in direct or not bent. It later assumed the meaning of correct as in right and wrong. Lyft meant weak. Their reference to handedness seems to have been incidental. It seems odd to us to talk about the 'straight' and 'weak' hand, but to them it made sense, but maybe not to talk about the 'straight' or 'weak' sides of a boat.

The concept of left and right hands was not very commonly used historically. It wasn't important to most people. During the English Civil War many recruits didn't know which hand or foot was left or right. During marching training instructors used to stick some hay in one boot and straw in the other for each recruit and call out "Hay, Straw, Hay, Straw".

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by orthecreedence on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:07PM (#35629901)
As I was reading your comment I was thinking "huh, that's interesting." But then I remembered: surfers use left/right as well, for instance if a wave breaks right or left. They use the perspective of being in the ocean and looking back at the shore, as opposed to the shore looking out to the ocean. I remember asking that very question when I first started.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by butterknife on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:57PM (#35630506)
We also use "house left/house right" to describe the audience perspective.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by wlonkly on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:31PM (#35634139)
> The theatrical world takes an intermediate approach, where they use the terms "stage left / stage right",

The opposite of that, rarely used but still out there, is house left/house right.