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Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:41AM (#35624639)
> Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.

Understatement of the week... pretty much everything on a boat has a different word for it. Often for practical reasons, sometimes purely traditional reasons. It is nice because it binds one to nautical tradition leading back centuries/millenia.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by petersellers on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:07AM (#35624784)
It's also pretty cool that a ton of sailing vocabulary has made its way into common English vernacular. I guess with the UK being the most powerful country in the world at one time (and projecting their power via their Navy) it's not too surprising.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by walthamstow on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:10AM (#35624800)
What are some examples? I am English but I know nothing about the maritime world, so I likely know the words as slang/vernacular terms but not what they mean on a ship.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:39AM (#35624984)
bow, boom, tack, hitch, tiller, helm, etc :)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by endtime on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:50AM (#35625068)
How many of these have common non-nautical uses? I don't think I ever use any of these terms, or hear anyone else use them, in common speech.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dagw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:06AM (#35625199)
I hear people use "at the helm" and "change tack" to mean being in charge of something and changing direction or approach, respectively. People also "hitch themselves" to things, although I'm not sure that comes directly from the nautical usage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by almostarockstar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:04AM (#35625988)
A "hitch" knot is typically used to fasten around a fixed object. So you might use a hitch to tie the boat to the shore, or tie a line around a wooden (or these days aluminium or carbon fibre) boom. I'm not sure if it's purely nautical.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jrockway on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:15AM (#35625263)
"at the helm" seems like common usage to me. Maybe not in the top 100 idioms, but everyone knows what you mean.

"tiller" is just the thing that controls the position of the rudder, which I think most people know about. (That said, nobody in aviation calls their rudder pedals the "tiller", so it might be a strictly nautical term.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by willyt on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:49AM (#35625507)
I think they sometimes call the thing that steers the nose wheel the tiller.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jrockway on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:16PM (#35630012)
Yup, you're exactly right. I totally forgot about that. Thinking about it more, the rudder and tiller might be different things on ships too; I think a rudder you turn right to go right, and a tiller you turn left to go right, because of where the pivot point is?

It's a good thing I'm not at the helm ;)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by willyt on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:46AM (#35742768)
On a boat the rudder is technically the blade that cuts through the water and the tiller is the thing that gives you enough leverage to apply force to control the direction of the rudder as it passes through the water; sometimes quite a lot of force is needed! Only quite small boats have tillers that you can directly manipulate. Larger boats typically have a wheel which controls hydraulic rams which manipulate the ‘tiller’
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by phone8675309 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#35628571)
Tiller was popular at least in the 1960s - see the Cat Stevens/Yousef album "Tea for the Tillerman"
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:01AM (#35625161)
Generally agree although there's a case for "taking a different tack".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Friday April 21, 2023 @01:40AM (#35650128)
bow is a fun one, if you don't bow when tacking and the boom swings over then boom!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by tudorw on Friday April 21, 2023 @01:43AM (#35650144)
Boats are noisy and dangerous places at times, I wonder if the lexicon arose organically or intentionally on the ability to hear them clearly to avoid misunderstanding. Any pirates care to comment?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by swiftcoder on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:13AM (#35624824)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by OJFord on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:44AM (#35625022)
To rig something up, to go overboard, to leave something in your wake.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chii on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:02AM (#35625166)
It's interesting that farming/agriculture and sailing both have left the legacy of their words into the language. It goes to show how important these industries are to civilization.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by coldtea on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:54AM (#35625932)
The most important ones? Without internet we could live a cushy little 20th century existance.

Without farming/sailing we'd go 20000 years back

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by OJFord on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:59AM (#35626671)
The sheer number of people (thinking particularly historically, pre-industrialisation) involved in them I suppose.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by rapnie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:49AM (#35625905)
Let's go full steam ahead, and dredge up some more.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:39AM (#35626533)
> steam

That's the hallmark of industrialization, right there :).

In case anyone thinks the important bits stopped at the age of sail.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by nicky0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @02:49AM (#35625066)
Have a read (or listen to the brilliantly read audiobook) of Master and Commander, and the subsequent series of novels by Patrick O'Brien. Apart from being entertaining historical novels, you learn a lot about naval life and terminology. Reading them I am struck by just how much nautical lingo made its way into common English usage.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by drpixie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:16AM (#35625690)
And if you like the O'Brien books, read the C.S. Forester "Horatio Hornblower" books - historically & nautically accurate and very readable.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bouvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:39AM (#35625850)
Having read the _excellent_ series in English, it was amusing for me to see the movie in a Danish cinema, where the incomprehensible English maritime jargon was translated to incomprehensible Danish maritime jargon.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by aequitas on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:44AM (#35625873)
I'd also recommend watching The Terror (season 1) and play Return of the Obra Dinn. Though both contain fantasy elements, there's lots of nautical lore to be found.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by PJ_Maybe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:13AM (#35625245)
One I like is the phrase "the tell-tale signs", which refers to a sailing boat's tell-tales. These are small strings attached to the sails to indicate if the sail needs to be trimmed for optimal performance.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by carlmr on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:45AM (#35625477)
I always just imagined that it was signs that tell a tale. And the online etymology dictionary seems to confirm that.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/telltale

>also tell-tale, "discloser of secrets," 1540s, from tell (v.) + tale. As an adjective from 1590s. Phrase tell a tale "relate a false or exaggerated story" is from late 13c.

Is it maybe that the nautical term comes from plain English?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Digit-Al on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:34AM (#35625816)
Quite a lot of folk etymology tries to, incorrectly, assign nautical origins to common words and phrases. I used to read a column by an etymologist that jokingly referred to this using the term CANOE - the Committee to Assign a Nautical Origin to Everything :-)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by nostromo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:21AM (#35625312)
A toilet on a boat is called a head because it was historically placed at the front of the boat.

You’ll still hear folks say “hit the head” referring to using the restroom.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Macha on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:15AM (#35625685)
Regional usage maybe? Never heard that expression in my life
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by gerad on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:21AM (#35625717)
And it was put at the front of the boat because that was downwind of everything else on a wind powered boat.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by cycomanic on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:01AM (#35625977)
I'm not sure that is true, sure the tacking angle of old boat was nowhere close to modern boats, but I would be surprised if they couldnt sail up wind.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pmontra on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:45AM (#35626234)
To go upwind you need a keel (viking ships did) or something that prevents the wind to push the ship away [1]. Sailing against the wind was very important for battle ships. What we have now compared to them is better materials and centuries of improved design which turned into tacking closer to the wind and much better maneuverability. We can change direction in a very short space. However our sailing boats are much smaller, closer to the viking ships than to the galleons [2]

[1] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/56264/when-did-h...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleon

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by sergiosgc on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:49AM (#35626250)
You never sail at 0 degrees upwind. When going upwind, the angle is about 30 degrees minimum. Closer than that and you can't inflate the main sail, thus get no power.

30 degrees should be enough to prevent toxic hazards. Sitting on the head on a tilting ship, during upwind sailing, is prone to other hazards though.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Steve44 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:29AM (#35625363)
You could start by learning the ropes.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mjlee on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:15AM (#35625683)
There are some we use in tech every day. The word log (as in logbook/log file) comes from a literal log that was thrown overboard to estimate the speed of the ship for navigation.

After that, there's some fun slang that's nautical. Chockablock comes from the blocks (pulleys) getting jammed on each other when multiple ropes are being worked on. "Not enough room to swing a cat" refers to the Cat o' Nine Tails which was a whip used for punishment on board ships.

Of course, I'm not even including the influx from containerisation! Helm, tiller, etc. etc.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:38AM (#35626922)
Not quite; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_log

Not obvious what it originally meant.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by walthamstow on Thursday April 20, 2023 @07:00AM (#35638345)
Chockablock is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for! These days abbreviated to just 'chocka', at least if my mum is anything to go by. Thanks for your reply
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Dobbs on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:41AM (#35625861)
* * *
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by QuantumYeti on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:52AM (#35625914)
"by and large" and "taken aback" are another couple examples.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chongli on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:21AM (#35626092)
3 sheets to the wind — meaning drunk — comes from sailing. A sheet is a rope used to control a sail. Sheets that are “to the wind” are loose (rather than tied down) so a ship with 3 sheets to the wind is going to be completely out of control and at the mercy of the wind, wandering all over the sea like a drunk person!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by almostarockstar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:23AM (#35626115)
Leeway: The "lee" is the area downwind of a vessel. A lee-shore is a shoreline that the wind blows on to, as opposed to a windward shore that the wind blows off. To give leeway is to allow enough room for a vessel to be blown off course by the wind and avoid danger.

Rig (noun): The mast and supporting stays on a boat. (oil rigs, "big rig" come from this I think).

Rig (verb): To put the sails up and tie on the sheets and other lines that control sails. ("Let's rig this up." == "Let's set this up.")

Posh (my favourite, though I doubt it's actually true): Port Out Starboard Home. When travelling from England to India around the tip of Africa, it was favourable to have a cabin on the port side on the way to India and starboard on the way back as it would be in the shade most of the time and a little cooler in the sun, with a view of the land.

See also: Change tack / try a different tack, right the ship, stay the course, (to be) swamped, "At a rate of knots" (very fast), keep an even keel, keel over.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by unwind on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:50AM (#35626612)
That is pretty cool!

Swedish (also picking a lot from German, of course) has the same word ("lä", and no I'm not going to try to describe the pronunciation) but our usage is wider in scope. In Swedish lä is simply "out of the wind", and not restricted to use onboard a vessel. Cool, didn't know that about English.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ttepasse on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:56AM (#35626653)
I too doubt the posh etymology: If you’re sailing around the cape by definition you will have crossed the equator twice, meaning your calculation of the sun positions will change. Acronyms pronounces as words seem more a modern 20th century thing.

Wiktionary talks about posh coming from the Romani language, meaning half, in monetary terms, as in half a crown. Seems believable to me, a lot of modern terms come from traveller’s languages and argots and such. See also tory and whig.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by blackshaw on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:27AM (#35627861)
The "posh" one is commonly repeated, but there's no evidence it's true: https://www.etymonline.com/word/posh#etymonline_v_18515
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by chewxy on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:38AM (#35626202)
In Malaysian/Singaporean English there's a term: gostan (read "go stun"), which means to reverse. I was curious about it's etymology and went to research it. It came from "go astern", with "astern" being the back of a ship. I imagine this must be a phrase the English speaking colonists must have used quite a lot in the 17th century
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by closewith on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:45AM (#35627446)
If your code is anything like mine, it might be junk, a term for worn rope.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TacticalCoder on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:27AM (#35628600)
I'll go with "anchor".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:15PM (#35630728)
> What are some examples?

We're going to need some leeway on the requirements for this project in order to finish on schedule otherwise we'll have to change tacks on the plan.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by munificent on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:40PM (#35631020)
A truly huge number of nautical terms have entered normal parlance. Some are so deeply engrained that we don't even realize they were originally nautical metaphors. Examples:

* Taken aback

* Above board

* Adrift or at sea

* Afloat versus underwater

* Ahead

* All hands

* Anchored

* Awash

* Batten down the hatches

* Bitter end

* Boiler room

* Buoyed up

* By and large

I stopped after B. Also, "cut of your jib", of course.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:01PM (#35635864)
To add to the list, strike (as in to refuse to work as a protest). In nautical terminology, to "strike" something is to lower it- sailors demanding better conditions or higher pay would lower their ship's sails and refuse to go to sea.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by narrator on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @03:35AM (#35625399)
One interesting thing about middle ages technologies, like boats, is that the words in the different romance languages for things invented in this era are very different from each other. Words that refer to older things have more latin roots. For example, in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different[1]. Other examples of middle ages words that are very different: windmill = molino, wheelbarrow = carretilla. Very newly created words also are similar because of all the english loan words. E.g computer= la computadora.

[1] https://www.spanish.academy/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-nauti...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:53AM (#35625928)
> windmill = molino

I don't know Spanish, but "molino" looks like French "moulin", which is a mill; a windmill is "moulin a vent".

So I reckon "very different" is an exaggeration.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by roveo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:02AM (#35625979)
I imagine this word should be of Indoeuropean origin, Eastern Slav words for a mill also contain m-l-n (e.g. melnitsa).

Modern English lost the "n" part, but it was present in Middle English, milne.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ivanhoe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:15AM (#35626050)
yes, it's "mlin" or "mlyn" in a number of Slavic languages, and I just looked up it's etymology in Serbian and the book says it comes from old slavic "mъlinъ" which they say comes from the Latin root "molinum"
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ivanhoe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:08AM (#35626013)
and Italian "il mulino"... it all comes from Latin "molinum" for the mill (and "mola" for the grind stone used in mills)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:17AM (#35626803)
The name of Thor's hammer "mjolnir" (as english speakers would see it) did not come through latin though, so the the version of the word in germanic languages was inherited independently.

"Mjolnir" means something like "crusher" and the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up". For example, it can be combined as vetemjöl (wheat flour) or stenmjöl (ground stone or stone powder).

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:01AM (#35627077)
> the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up"

Ah - "mjol" as flour must be cognate with "meal". I hadn't previously associated meal with mills, but it makes sense.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by hnbad on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:10AM (#35627701)
As another data point: meal/flour is "Mehl" in German. Mehl/meal is milled in a Mühle/mill.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by Ichthypresbyter on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:54PM (#35635822)
Flour was originally only the highest quality grade- the "flower"- of ground grain.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by vidarh on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:01AM (#35628244)
Meal appears to be a cognate of Old Norse "mál" ("mål", "måltid" - meal, meal time - in modern Norwegian) rather than mjol. Compare also Mehl (flour) vs Mahl (meal) in German.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yobbo on Friday April 21, 2023 @11:44AM (#35655497)
Both meanings exist in English - "stonemeal" or "oatmeal" for example.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pezezin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:19AM (#35626412)
Yes, "molino" is just mill. Windmill would be "molino de viento" and watermill "molino de agua".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by NeoTar on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:39AM (#35626532)
An in German - Mühle... in fact the English Mill is pretty close too!
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by stratosgear on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:30AM (#35627307)
And in Greek: μύλος. With latin characters: milos. So it seems the root of the word is the same...
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pantulis on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @04:58AM (#35625960)
Just a point, "starboard" sounds pretty similar to "estribor".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by pmontra on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:10AM (#35626021)
Molino is mulino in Italian. Ancient Greek and Latin had similar words starting with mol-. Given the importance of that technology I'm not surprised that the word didn't change much. English' mill is also close to the romance languages. [1]

Port and starboard used to be "babordo" and "tribordo" in Italian but they were replaced by "sinistra" (the very word used to say "left") and "dritta".

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mill#Etymology_1

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by kwhitefoot on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:25AM (#35626123)
Babord is port in Norwegian. But starboard is styrbord which makes a lot of sense because the steering board, or oar, is on the steersman's right side.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:50AM (#35626258)
Babord is also used in French
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by stefncb on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:59AM (#35626307)
We use "tribord" and "babord" in romanian.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by oesexe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:02AM (#35626692)
Danish as well. I didn’t see it mentioned, so I will add: that back then, a ship could not moor along the key on starboard/styrbord side. So it had to be the other side: hence the English port side.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#35626502)
Babor y estribor in Spanish. In Spanish we used to say "siniestra", now we say "izquierda", a loanword from Basque 'ezkerra'.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by russellbeattie on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:26AM (#35626128)
In Spain a computer is an ordenador. Spaniards hate anglicisms. Car is coche, not carro, email is correo electronico, zipper is cremallera. Lots of others.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by xxs on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:44AM (#35626229)
>ordenador

you mean unlike French?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#35626267)
Is carro used more in Mexico then ?
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#35626503)
Carro is not used in Spain at all.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:38AM (#35626529)
It's used, but for the old ones with horses.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:40AM (#35626539)
Exactly, but don't ask Manolo Escobar about it, since it's somewhat of a sensitive issue for him.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by el-salvador on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @12:00PM (#35629828)
> It's used, but for the old ones with horses.

This was new for me.

The Spanish words carro, carreta, coche, carretilla, carrito all mean "something that has wheels on it", but the meaning keeps changing between car, horse drawn carriage, baby stroller, shopping cart, horse drawn cart or toy car between countries.

Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:09PM (#35630656)
> Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.

What/where are the misunderstandings for sorbeto?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by el-salvador on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:05PM (#35633332)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by SilasX on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:28AM (#35628614)
Similar for computadora (rather than ordenador) in Latin America:

https://www.woodwardspanish.com/how-to-say-computer-spanish-...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626277)
Lots more Galicisms in Spain for sure :) probably easier to share words when you also share a land border.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TRiG_Ireland on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:11AM (#35626369)
Do Spanish-speaking and French-speaking areas actually share a border? I thought there was a buffer zone of Catalan and Basque. I'll need to check a map.

On checking, it looks like there is a short (but very mountainous) border: https://maps-spain.com/maps-spain-geography/spain-language-m...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by qtzfz on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:36AM (#35626511)
Don't be mislead by that map, everybody in those regions that say "Basque" or "Catalan" know Spanish perfectly well.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by TRiG_Ireland on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:06AM (#35626346)
English car comes from Latin, actually, but Latin picked it up from Celtic (cf. Breton karr).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/car

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by anthk on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:36AM (#35626507)
We use email too in Spain. It's shorter. And parking instead of "estacionamiento".
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#35626265)
However in peninsular Spanish, computer = ordenador, the loan word is the French “ordinateur”.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:53AM (#35626273)
Mexican spanish should not be the reference for what is said in spanish
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by aae42 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:41AM (#35626548)
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bee_rider on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:48AM (#35627474)
Mexico & USA, language taking over buddies. We just need to grow Quebec, so we can get the full set over here. Long way to go, though…
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:14AM (#35629178)
because numbers don't matter. Just like Quebecois would not be the reference for the French language, even if it somehow outgrew the French speaking population in France
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @05:55AM (#35626283)
Cheese is an interesting one - I would expect Spanish to share the word with French and Italian but it’s actually closer to English and Dutch.

French fromage Italian formagio

Spanish queso English cheese Dutch kaas

Languages are so weird :)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by marvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:32AM (#35626494)
In the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium.

My French relatives however, insist that this is not real cheese, as it is not fermented. But the Norwegian language has no such distinction -- the 'brunost' is an instance of 'mysost'; 'cheese produced from whey'. This is no less real cheese than the one you ferment from caseine.

This naturally led me down a rabbit hole of etymological investigation.

The best conclusion I've reached so far, is that the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine, naturally refer to cheeses that would mostly be fermented, as this is what happens with the solid caseine when you leave it around for a bit. Whereas Norwegian 'ost', stemming from 'yste', the verb for separating the caseine from the whey, makes no such distinction.

And ironically, the Latin-stemming words 'fromage', 'formagio', stem from Latin 'formicum'; something that is cast in a form. Having nothing at all to do with fermentation or even milk!

There are two conclusions here, one being that the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words.

The second conclusion is that my French relatives are wrong and brown cheese is in fact fromage. But not cheese, I will concede as much.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:48AM (#35626600)
> the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine

Casein was not discovered before cheese was. 'kase' doesn't refer to casein. Casein, the family of proteins, is named after cheese, the milk product consisting in large part of those proteins.

And 'kase' is not a Germanic root. Fromage descends from the Latin word for "shape". 'kase' descends from the Latin word for "cheese".

> There are two conclusions here, one being that the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words.

This isn't right either. Tin soldiers must be cast, but they are obviously not cheese, and therefore they are also not fromage. The etymology of the word tells you nothing about its meaning.

(The conclusion is fine, but drawing it from this evidence is not -- if you translate French fromage as "cheese", you're not missing any subtle distinctions. It means cheese.)

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by marvin on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:03AM (#35626701)
Do you have references for the last of your claims? I thought I did a reasonably exhaustive search for a layperson, but the sources I found could certainly be wrong. My hobby searches in this area have led me to conclude that etymology isn't a hard science, and ultimately one will arrive at someone's qualified opinion about something.

The relation between 'kase' and casein is very fair; cheese production obviously predates protein chemistry. I guess what I was trying to say was that the words are related, but if 'kase' derives from Latin for 'cheese', the rabbit hole continues. Why does the French word derive from shape, if the Romans already had a word for cheese? And what did their definition of cheese include?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:04AM (#35627097)
> Why does the French word derive from shape, if the Romans already had a word for cheese?

This is not a question that it's possible to answer. Languages change.

Why is the modern English term dog, a word of no known origin, instead of the native (still extant, but not really alive) term hound?

> Do you have references for the last of your claims? I thought I did a reasonably exhaustive search for a layperson, but the sources I found could certainly be wrong.

Assuming you're referring to the claim that the English word "cheese" (and the similar terms in other Germanic languages) is derived from an ancient borrowing of the Latin word caseus, meaning "cheese", I was not able to find any source that didn't confirm it. Wiktionary will tell you this. etymonline will tell you this. The OED will also tell you this:

> Forms: 1 cese, cyse, 2 cease, cæse, 5 schese, 6 chease, cheise, chiese, ches, 2–6 chese, 4, 6– cheese. [OE. (Anglian) cése, (WSax.) *cíese, cýse (with i- umlaut from céasi, cǽsi) = OHG. châsi (MHG. kæse, Ger. käse), OLG. kâsi, kêsi (MDu. kâse, Du. kaas):—WGer. *kâsi, ad. L. cāse-us cheese (bef. 5th c.).]

Where were you checking that didn't say this?

If you want a reference to the fact that the Latin word caseus means "cheese", try here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by soylentcola on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @10:05AM (#35628298)
Is this why cheese (I believe via Roman Latin) is also 'cacio'?

I'm only familiar due to 'cacio a pepe'.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:30PM (#35634607)
Yes.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:31AM (#35626880)
> the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words

Good point. I have yet to see a dictionary that also provides delineation with similar-but-different words and describes the differences.

That'd be very useful for language learners, as colloquial use often eschews definition in favor of socially common convention. I.e. "That word does mean that, but you would never use it in that way"

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bcbrown on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:02PM (#35634818)
I'm not certain that this is exactly what you're talking about, but one of my dictionaries (Webster's New International, 1916) includes this under the entry for Authentic, which brings me great joy:

Authentic, Genuine. The prevailing sense of authentic is authoritative, trustworthy, with the implication of accordance with fact; as "confirmed both by legend and authentic record" (Froude); "assurances more or less authentic" (Wordsworth); an authentic portrait. The prevailing sense of Genuine is native, real, true (see Real), often with the implication of descent from, or correspondence to, an original source or stock; as, a genuine merino, genuine piety; "true simplicity and genuine pathos" (Wordsworth); cf (colloq.) "the genuine article" with "the real thing." Both terms are used - genuine more frequently than authentic - as opposed to spurious, counterfeit, apocryphal; as "Let them contrast their own fantastical personages ... with the authentic rustics of Burns" (Jeffrey); "What is genuine knowledge and what is its counterfeit" (J.H. Newman). The 18th century distinction between the two terms, as applied to documents - "A genuine book is that which was written by the person whose name it bears as the author of it; an authentic book is that which relates matters of fact as they really happened" (Bp. Watson) - while still often observed, is becoming obliterated in present usage; as "The criticism which thus so freely diminishes the numer of his [Giorgione's] authentic works" (W. Pater); "Some collectors frankly take the ground that they buy what pleases them, and that age and authenticity are minor considerations" (The Nation). See Real, Correct.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by ethbr0 on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @09:50PM (#35635440)
Wow! I'd be fascinated how many person-hours went into that entry.

On the whole, Wikipedia et al. are improvements in comprehensiveness and timeliness, but god damn do the gems of prior methods still shine brightly.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bcbrown on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @11:07PM (#35635906)
Webster's first dictionary was a one-man project and took 26 years. He learned 28 languages in order to research the etymologies. This New International is my favorite of the handful I own. I learned about it from https://jsomers.net/blog/dictionary, which I learned about here, on HN. I just re-submitted it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35635876

Here's one more entry, on synonyms of Intention:

Intention, Intent, Purpose, Design, Aim, Object, End are here compared in their general senses; for technical definitions, see defs. Intention, which often suggests little more than what one means or proposes to do, implies less settled determination than Purpose, less definite plan or prearrangment than Design, which frequently adds the implication of crafty or artful scheming; as "She had not had an intention or a thought of going home, until she had announced it to him as a settled design" (Dickens); his intentions are good; cf. to declare one's intentions; "My purpose holds to sail beyond the sunset, and the baths of all the western stars, until I die" (Tennyson); "I go amongst the buildings of a city and I see a man hurrying along - to what? The creature has a purpose and his eyese are bright with it" (Keats); "envious commands, invented design to keep them low" (Milton); "Should he find me here, [he] would discover my name, and perhaps my designs, to the rest of the family" (Goldsmith); cf. "designing lovers" (id.). Intent is chiefly legal or poetical; as, intent to deceive, kill; "the power of a sublime intent" (Shelley). Aim emphasizes directness of purpose, Object that on which activities are focused, End that towards which they tend as their consequence or final cause; as, "to [his trust] keeps faithful with a singleness of aim" (Wordsworth); "her steadiness and courage in the pursuit of her aims" (J.R. Green); "Yet in the task of luxury of freedom I began to wish for the daily task, the active pursuit, which gave a value to every book, and an object to every inquiry" (Gibbon); the object of education, a man without an object in life; "I see in part that all, as in some piece of art, is toil cooperant to an end" (Tennyson); "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever" (Westminster Catechism). See Cause, Effect, Plan, Voluntary.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yencabulator on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:20PM (#35735758)
Yes, and figuring out the differences is sometimes a challenge for English-as-second-language people. Finnish uses one word for both foot and leg, and if you want to say foot you say "leg table" (the horizontal part of the leg). Similar with hand/arm. In the other direction, Finnish has separate words for the front and back of your neck (and I don't mean just throat).

If I kick my foot on a rock, I may say something out loud about hurting my leg. That doesn't sound right to native speaker.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by yencabulator on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:15PM (#35735713)
Wiktionary says fromage comes from Latin for "mould", cheese might come from Proto-Indo European "to ferment, become sour" but this is contested, and ost comes from Proto-Indo European "sap"/"juice"/"broth", seen also in Latin ius="gravy"/"broth"/"soup"/"sauce".

See e.g. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheese

Interestingly, the pronounciation guide for origin of ost is /ˈjus.tɑz/ which seems a lot like the Finnish word for cheese, "juusto".

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by dendriti on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:06AM (#35626347)
This tracks, actually - Spain (or Spanish monarchs) ruled the Netherlands for over 170 years.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:43AM (#35626566)
That doesn't appear to be related. The word is not Germanic; Spanish is using the word it inherited from Latin, while English and Dutch are using the same word, borrowed from Latin.

In other words, the reason that Spanish is similar to English/Dutch here is that they borrowed the Spanish word, becoming more like Spanish. The reason Italian and French aren't similar to Spanish is that they changed while Spanish didn't.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by copperx on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @07:27AM (#35626866)
Really? in French, starboard is tribord, and in Spanish, it's estribor. Port is bâbord, and in Spanish, it's babor.

How are they different?

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mejutoco on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:04AM (#35627096)
In Spain the computer is el ordenador. Port and starboard are babor y estribor (similar to French).

I think it is more about who introduced these words. Etymology is fascinating.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by mattigames on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @08:15AM (#35627189)
In the 90s in Colombia (perhaps all LATAM) we used "ordenador" but quickly fell out of use in favor of "computador", now only few old people occasionally call it "ordenador" in this country.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by jjav on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @01:17PM (#35630738)
> in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different

Indeed. Spanish is my native language but I learned sailing in the US so my nautical vocabulary is all in English. I feel completely illiterate on a Spanish speaking boat.

Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by bottled_poe on Wednesday April 19, 2023 @06:20AM (#35626419)
This reminds me of the design of aircraft cockpits. Controls are deliberately designed to look and feel different so they cannot be easily confused (in itself a lesson for UI/UX design) - something which has caused aviation incidents in aircraft which have had consistently designed controls.
Re:Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left”... by BigCryo on Thursday April 20, 2023 @08:30AM (#35638956)
*Cough cough* rum, sodomy, and the lash *cough cough*