Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.

This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.

For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.

1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.

First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.

Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.

Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.

Apps used: 0.

Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.

(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)

If it has a screen then surely it's possible to show its current status.

Or, and bear with me because this is a really crazy idea... how about a single LED to show it's busy?

I don't think that post was necessarily directed at Miele, but at designers designing for design sake in general.

> come running to unload it when it's done?

You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s

Load in the evening, unload in the morning.

The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.

As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.

This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."

Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.

https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...

And check out the new Ridiculous wash cycle!

The jokes practically write themselves.

Do never connect things to any network - and especially the internet - if it is not required for operation.

What worries are people which blindly request "more digitalization". We need resilience, not digitalization! Once a unnamed person complained about the fact the the Boeing 747-400 still gets flight data updates with a floppy. They argued it should use WiFi and central updates from a server and so on. NOT! The floppy allows control, save operation and flexible updates. Don't even add an USB-Port, this just allows someone to roast the electronics with a cheap USB-Gadget.

Just let programmers program more code doesn't make good programs. Actually it is vice versa.

Seriously I don’t understand the need at all to have your kitchen be connected to wifi at all. Not everything needs to be quantified, unless you use measuring cups for cooking.

Second I can’t trust manufacturers to rush something out the door to “fix it in post”

That said while I do disagree with the above consumers, I don't care about remote control but I would quite like remote status updates from various appliances (is the door locked, is the washing cycle finished, has the fridge been left open, etc.)

I suspect the only value most consumers see in these features is lower retail pricing.

But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.

I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.

There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.

Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.

Anecdata: In my wive's house, we have a Miele wasching machine from the year 2000. Its been used daily. It is as good as on the day it was purchased - quiet, and does not vibrate even when spinning at its max 1600 rpm. Its pretty amazing.

I believe when it was last cleaned they did install new firmware -- though to be entirely hoenest, I doubt a lot of people really know or care how efficient their wasching machines are -- water is way too cheap.

The dishes all need to be totally clean, every time, or it's useless to me.

The big one that drives me nuts on new cars are all the auto start/stop at idle systems. They eat car batteries and starters (increase wear from oil starvation on startup too - consumer car engines are not positively lubricated; pressure has to pump back up every time the engine starts) and there is no way to disable them other than pushing a button every time you start your car (or hacking around with the wiring), but I'm sure they are critical in obtaining higher gas milage requirements so expect them to proliferate. It's crap that happens when you focus on one metric - gas milage - to the exclusion of "the big picture" such as total carbon footprint over the life of the car including the manufacturing and replacement costs/environmental impact of replacing prematurely worn out parts from "energy efficient" design decisions.

That said, even the Bosch needed a new heat pump after 3 years which was an adventure in unreasonably complex disassembly.

I rinse things pretty well beforehand and use quick wash and it works well.

My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.

We humans can be so annoying sometimes.

EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p

- Don't use pods

- Fill the main and prewash cups every time. The prewash is intended to be used every time, not just when the dishes are exceptionally dirty.

- Run the hot water in the attached sink to full heat to ensure the washer gets filled with hot water

As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Seriously, you too can save a bunch of electricity and wasted time by pre-washing stuff before putting it in the dishwasher.

I do agree that it sounds like satire, though.

I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.

This. Filling a dishwasher is an art of binpacking in itself. I'm pretty satisfied by my Bosch one, unless it is just a1-2 cycle before asking for the cleaning cycle, 95% of the times everything come up perfectly clean, even with the "eco" program. When something comes out dirty (if everything was properly placed), usually it will nag you to clean the dishwasher on the next cycle or the other.

> There is no need to rinse items under running water!

Dishwashers already pre-wash with an initial rinse cycle, the whole point is that they do the washing for you. It's also a whole lot more efficient in terms of water waste.

The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.

That is really interesting, as I do use pods. I need to look into this more.

More generally, I have had a lot more success with not needing to re-wash things if I rinse before hand (but I don't have a miele).

Some people put the dirtiest dishes in the history of humanity in their washer and then complain it doesn’t clean very well. A quick rinse with water to get the chunks, or the really caked on stuff off works wonders.

Overall I'm really happy with this machine though; worth the pretty penny it costs.

The only time it ever fails is when something blocks a rotor and half a tray doesn't get any water on the underside.

But I don't think spraying more, hotter water at the clean half will help that.

Or it is treated by the same algorithm like all the other cleaning powders, which is: "mix with water then spray through nozzles". Strangly enough, this has worked great for decades without firmware updates. For the longest time it even worked without firmware.

If I want more, I put in 2 tabs.

If I want none, I put in no tab.

If I want my dishes to smell like soup, I put in a buillon cube. (Not recommended by whoever built the Dishwasher)

My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is forced to use individual pods.

But if that's the case then I'm not sure how this would work unless the user enters a config setting or something for what soap they're commonly using. Water hardness the washer could measure itself, I guess.

Edit: another commenter below (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147979) links to the manual (https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...), which answers most of these questions.

No.

But they do have an auto-dosing capability on some models that take a disk and dispense the right amount of powder for the given wash.

Which? reviewed this and concluded it's a gimmick: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/is-this-miele-dishwashe... . I agree with this verdict.

The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.

My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.

Another gimmick that machine has, it's auto-opening at the end of the cycle in order to vent off steam.

I had many different dishwashers over the years, but Miele one is so far the best I ever had

Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."

Real-world examples:

(1) Download firmware, stick it on a USB drive, put USB drive in device, go through arcane menus or button press sequence to do an update. I have two devices that work this way, an aftermarket car stereo Bluetooth adapter and a (musical) keyboard.

(2) Install some app (and maybe a driver) on a Windows computer, connect device to computer, and have the app push the firmware to the device. I have an old Garmin GPS watch that does it this way. (Which is extra annoying because the watch has an Android companion app which communicates with the watch over Bluetooth, and it can tell you an update is available but can't apply it.)

The buzzwords I never hear on HN is Digital Twin. It's usually in a HVAC or like smart building context. It's a buzzword for a simple idea, but the makers of the Miele AC app probably should have thought a little harder about tracking system state, maybe read a little of the literature.

My experience with "high end" appliances in general (Bosch, Miele, Wolf, Subzero) is that it's a tax on "rich people". They're not better than top-line LG, etc.

Miele had a definite edge on build quality, that means that services are fewer and farther between than with other brands given the same amount of use.

The joke was that if you wanted to armor plate your car you could do so with the side panels of Miele washing machines. Not too far from the truth, they were also much heavier than competitor gear. But those days are - as far as I can tell - over.

Theres more than initial acquisition cost or the looks of the appliance that's worth considering when purchasing!

All that said, I do not own a Miele dishwasher because it's benefits are not worth the high cost to me, however I have severe allergies and while I hated to pay for it, a Miele vacuum has ruined me for all other vacuums.

*Not a Miele salesman, just love very clean carpets. I'd be thrilled to learn about a cheaper alternative that can remove hair/dander/dust and etc as well from carpets as a Miele can, but so far nothing has come close.

And if you have hard surface floors there is nothing faster than pulling out a lightweight flexible hose with a floor brush and running the vac over it. Faster than sweeping and again doesn't stir up dust/dander/hair like sweeping does.

I will never own a house without a central vac. And if you are really OCD about your carpet cleaning there are Wet/Dry central vac systems that have built in carpet cleaners. Will automatically discharge the waste water to the sewer. A bit pricy and exotic but I have a few friends who if they owned such a system would probably use them weekly (and mold the heck out of their carpets too!).

Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of those companies haven’t existed for longer than my latest washer.

You buy those brands because you know exactly what you get. Basically guaranteed performance for the next 10 years, and very likely after.

I do wish they didn’t jump on the app bandwagon, but they really have no choice since the rabble wants it. I swear people will pick an appliance with an app simply so they don’t have to press the preheat button on their oven. And you can do it from the couch! Never mind that you don’t ever do that…

No, you won't. Just because you had an appliance that lasted 20 years before doesn't mean you are going to get the same today (you aren't). Energy efficiency standards have affected all manufacturers. Complexity leads to unreliability over time - all manufacturers are affected. Some will still be better than the rest, but if you aren't prioritizing manufacturers who are repair friendly you are going to either be spending multiples of the original cost of your appliance over time, or just flat out replacing them more often.

Or just fix that 20 year old appliance you already have when it breaks (almost always the best answer vs. buying new - with just about anything!)

Absolutely. The other day a colleague described the fact that her washing mashine's app tells her when the program is finished as an essential, must-have feature. I understand that it's useful and nice to have but if you're wearing an Apple Watch anyway, as she does, just set a timer. It's what I do.

I’ve been kitting out a new house and the appliance I’ve been most satisfied by far is my Victory Twister range hood. It’s a stainless steel box with a blower, some lights, a couple wires and two rotary switches. I wish I could buy all my appliances without PCBs.

please, rich people don't even notice the cost of these pieces of equipment. the ones that might feel the pinch are the ones punch above their weight class to give of the look the are better off than they are. not much different from classes of cars that look like you make money, but every time you take them to the dealership, minimum $800.

if that's a tax on rich people, then they aren't very rich.

is bosch really a "high-end" appliances company? I always considered it mid-range company, producing appliances for the middle-class.

Love my Breville toaster oven though - thing is so stinking versatile and by far the best of any I have ever used. We use it as an oven far more than as a toaster. Perfect for heating/baking most stuff without heating up the entire house like the regular oven does. We have the one that also has the air fry mode - use that mode all the time to cook vegetables that are delicious and a lot healthier too. Did I mention we really love our Breville toaster oven? And to think I originally chose it because it was the only one I could find that had a stinking light inside?

Even if you opened the door it would still do all 6 super loud beeps. It became a race to get there with one second left to stop it.

Also every press of any key would emit a loud beep. Stupid.

So I opened it up and snipped the stupid buzzer a while back.

It's so much nicer to have a silent microwave now.

The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?

IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades).

So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop."

What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.

Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect.

Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.

Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g.

1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping

2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)

My wife starts work earlier than me, so goes to bed sooner, but takes a shower before bed. She often asks me to start the dishwasher after she finishes showering (So the water temp in her shower doesn't fluctuate while the dishwasher fills), and then I forget all about it.

I need to just hit that Delay button.

yes and then it accelerates and you go over the time you wanted and you have to wait for a whole 24:00 loop to reach the correct time again

I mean this 100% seriously: this is super easy to configure. No reason to fiddle with wifi, phone, app nor website.

Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex.

> If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?

It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.

Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser.

The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?

Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.

Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved.

Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.

By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers.

>designers start to wedge them in just because they can

Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.

And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.

Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you.

>And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.

I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however.

>few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors

I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU.

Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?

This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans?

God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year?

With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale.

This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements.

What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?

It takes a simple google search if you were interested.

A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs.

This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2].

The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5].

Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr.

This took < 5 minutes to find using google.

[1] https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems...

[2] https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-app...

[3] https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_1...

[4] https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-...

[5] https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishw...

I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.

There's about a dozen settings on the washer's wash-cycle dial, and two rows of buttons. I don't know what they're all for. It's nuts - there must be about 40 combinations.

I do appreciate your respect for the usefulness of this functionality -- I just throw my laundry in the machine, press ON and then press START, throw in a random amount of soap and 60 minutes later or so I have clean clothes.

Into the dishwasher?

Although for countries where laundry machines are typically in the kitchen, a theoretical hybrid machine would be interesting (if it worked well, and the dish specific stuff could fold away compactly), but in practice multi-function machines like that rarely seem to turn out well.

Ever seen someone use the coffe-maker to cook instant ramen?

Of course this is stupid; you put the dry ramen in a bowl, pour on boiling water, and wait a minute or two. That's what the instructions on the pack actually say. It's not necessary to boil ramen.

I don't even know what to make of that anymore. Just because it's self-deprecating doesn't make it okay.

I mean the tweet is putting the blame at the wrong people (it's a business decision after all), but I wouldn't go as far as call it "hate-inciting nonsense". You're not under attack.

I don't see it.

An appliance going "nope, I have one path for this" is, tbh, to be expected. A dishwasher washes dishes, and the idea that there is a secret-sauce way to tell it to do something it isn't actively presenting to you is not something a reasonable person is going to expect. It's why my dishwasher has like eight buttons on the top--it enumerates everything it can do. So if that appliance is hiding its verbs, then a reasonable person is going to assume it doesn't have any.

It would be best if most machines didn't talk to us, at all. Press a button: it runs. Nothing more.

I can't think of a good reason to have a network-connected dishwasher. I don't think I'd ever start it remotely, as I still have to clear the table and rinse the dishes. The washer gets started when I'm done loading it. I can check detergent levels while the door is open.

Pretty much the same for all my other appliance for that matter.

I did see the twitter screenshots, but as I don't own the device myself I couldn't really judge if the GP's instructions are readily apparent to the average user.

Also, I don't disagree with you. But the OP seemingly bought such a device and connected it to their wifi. Maybe they are living in a furnished apartment with pre-configured wifi? Anyway - thankfully we are not yet in an era where ones only choice is a connected dishwasher - can still buy used, older models etc.

edit: One would hope that you can factory reset the dishwasher to make it forget the wifi information, if it has been configured by someone else.

But there are miele versions with custom programmable cycles for things like sterilizing labware, etc, where I could see a web page interface much easier to use than the buttons or screen on the device.

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...

>Miele’s cleaning performance is strong, but not quite the best we’ve found. We tested two different Classic Plus units (both installed in our office in Long Island City, New York), and they struggled a bit with the stubbornest foods, including a cheese-and-bean plate, egg, oatmeal, and burnt brownie. Miele’s model was a step behind the Bosch, Whirlpool, Maytag, and even GE dishwashers we tested. Consumer Reports (“Quick Guide: Dishwashers,” Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2021, pp. 23–25) also rates Miele just a tick below the best performers. But with most loads, most of the time, a Miele should still get everything totally clean.

1: This was reported in the news in the Netherlands, they may not be introducing this everywhere at once, but it is a worrying trend.

...

That probably says what needs to be said about smart appliances. There's a reason that's the right choice. This same reason is the reason smart appliances are a bad idea.

Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?

TBH I figure that this is roughly the point when the Wi-Fi chipsets can't connect to whatever the standard is at that moment in time.

The only really useful Wi-Fi feature of the white goods in my house would be within the hob and the extractor hood. These communicate over Wi-Fi so that the extraction is automatically turned on at the appropriate speed for however the hob is being used, and turned off 30 seconds after the hob stops being used.

Nobody wants to update the firmware of their dishwasher! (or anything, really)

I'm sure one can think of "benefits" to this, but as this incident shows, the annoyance far, far outweighs any possible benefit.

This is really getting out of hand. "Right to repair" should include "right to dumb down".

Yes! Especially with cars - Toyota backed down but they are full of crap; they fully intended to do it until people objected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc

I love how the only people that were going to be exempted were peoples who's cars cellular modems already didn't work. How convenient.

I hope I can be buried in the cars I currently own. And if I have to buy a new one if it won't work with the cellular modem being pulled out I ain't buying it.

Honestly I'm amazed that so many people actually connect their "smart" TVs to the Internet. No way in hell!

We got the TV mainly because the picture quality was much better than the others they had at Costco.

The current morass of advertising chicanery continues to exist because people are willing to trade away their privacy for convenience.

If you know something sucks but continue to do it because it's convenient then it's beyond disingenuous to keep complaining about it.

"Doctor it hurts when I do this" and all that :p

In the time that I've had mine, I would have had to replace a modern one about three times. I think that new ones would be more water efficient, but I do not see new ones being more efficient electrically. Mine is plumbed to hot water, so the heating elements are not used much and it dries them with blown air instead of heat.

If I am looking to reduce my electrical footprint there is much lower hanging fruit than my dishwasher. How much energy would go into the manufacturing, delivery, and installation of three dishwashers?

Even today a super basic mechanical timer based washing machine probably won't work as well or as efficiently as a high end unit with various sensors and logic.

Improvements in these appliances always feel a little like those percentages on dishwashing liquid. If I would multiple all the improvements since 1990 I think one drop of detergent will be enough for the rest of my life.

These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but they also open the opportunity for subscriptions and who-knows-what-kind-of in-app purchases which can be sold to anxious-complacent-frazzled consumers with extra disposable income.

Not sure of the number of units sold comparing dishwashers vs TVs, so maybe there's not enough volume in dishwasher? Also, I can only imagine the analytics data from TV viewing is much more informative/beneficial than how many times someone washes dishes.

The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning.

Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying.

When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving.

So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind.

And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall.

Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost.

But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.

See what i did there. one sentence.

THE ISSUE PRESENTED IN THE POST: I want to use the product. I have to inconvenience my routine to use it.

This issue is pervasive in tech. It ASSUMES the idiot. Big Tech is defining what is best for the user. This is what we have bought. This post is pointing that out. From what I can tell, the Parent post here is a shill or is the typical 'doesn't happen to me tech elitist'.

That's about it. Found my login to make this comment. Logging out.

I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow -

First start Ask to update software - sounds legit OK Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to!

If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher!

but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.

When it's empty, you still have to actually fill it, so if the LED comes on just fill the tank at some point in the next 10 or so cycles and it'll do.

And when old bag or bottle is empty, buy salt on one of the next 10 or so supermarket trips. The dishwasher will not need more any time soon after a refill.

Maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of modern life, but it feels like yet more stats porn to go with all the metrics vomited into life by fitness trackers and apparently every piece of software.

This should merit a post all by itself.

For example, I have CTs directly attached to my laundry circuits which I monitor to generate alerts. Helps keep the family moving along when we all have laundry queued up.

Can't you have the machine running HA on two vlans or route with your router?

1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security").

The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager.

2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too.

For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent.

3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...

Well, kind of what I expect when I buy a cheap dishwasher.

(that's sarcasm)