To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)

> To be fair, it could also get functionality updates

This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.

For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.

1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.

Yeah but usually what happens is that no new development of that sort occurs during the (intentionally limited by cheaped-out hardware design) lifetime of the appliance. If they do push any updates, they'll either be to fix security problems (only if you're lucky enough that they get fixed at all), or they'll push some horrible software feature users didn't ask for which worsens their experience vs how it operated when purchased and brings new bugs. Appliance manufacturers are terrible at firmware/software. You get all the downsides and none of the upsides.

And just general bug updates. Remember how buggy appliances used to be, back in the bad old days when they were too simple to run whole operating systems? A couple months after release these things will be mostly free of glitches!

This is why you should never allow a printer to directly connect to the internet.

Never is a strong word. If corporations can take advantage of you, so you can you of them. I’m yet to pay a single dollar for ink. The free 10 pages a month plan with HP allows me to use it to print the occasional recipes and labels in full color for free. I knew I’m not going to print too much stuff and I can swap it out for my own ink if my need changes. I keep the printer plugged out except when I need to print and it works out well for me so far. (This was why HP was trying to phase out the plan).

That might soon be mandatory as an anti-banknote-photocopy measure.

Or, maybe the detergents don't matter all that much and should be generic enough that you can use them in any dishwasher.

Pretty sure the person you were responding to was pointing out more ways that wifi is an anti-feature for a dishwasher

This still sounds terrible.

Meta: I intended this comment to be a pun because of the post about the Tesla 3 update but it is getting a surprising number of upvotes. Apparently it's striking a chord.

First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.

Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.

Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.

It’s not just the 3 is it?

Another Tesla Model 3 owner with firmware v11? :)

Gotta take inspiration from the best in UX /s

All input is error (so we make it impossible to give correct input).

Miele (and BSH) is really good at industrial design in my experience so I'd be surprised if they'd do something like that. However, I also don't really see a particular reason why a dishwasher needs WiFi. Do people actually like... check on them and come running to unload it when it's done? I suppose for checking if it needs dishwasher salt or rinse aid it could make sense but ... eh

Miele's user interface isn't that great. I owned a Miele laundry machine. After you press "start" there is no way you can undo that. This sucks. Even missiles have an "unlaunch" feature.

Are you sure? I can hold stop to stop the current program on my Miele washing machine. The key is to hold, not merely tap stop.

With the current WiFi connected Miele laundry machines you can use the app to pause and add more laundry.

With my washing machine, I press the button. It'll say "no", drain down the drum so the water doesn't fall out when the door opens, then say "yes" and the door unlocks.

Apps used: 0.

Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.

but why? I mean if I'm doing laundry I'm within 50 ft of the machine generally? I have never needed to do such an operation or can think of a situation where the added complexity merits the addition of wifi and security threats of a Russian hacker trying to mine etherium on my dish washer.

I can't claim to know every Miele there is but both an early 80s and an early 2010s Miele has pause/continue buttons. On the 2010 one it even looks like a play-pause button.

My first reaction was to write a comment about why you don't need WiFi on a dishwasher. Then I found there may be use cases: you want to start the washing program from the office so it finishes right before you get home. That day when you need to stay another hour in the office, being able to interact with the machine is a nice to have, even if not a really important thing. Same as with air conditioning when you want to save electricity.

If you already have the dishwasher loaded with the dishes before you leave for work, why not just run it then?

We try to avoid running our dishwasher when our toddler is around because he will interfere with the cycle, but sometimes we forget to start it right before heading out the door. Remote start would be handy in a case like that :)

I have a Bosch dishwasher which has the controls inside where kids can’t touch them. Plus it’s insanely quiet

Still an overengineered solution -- a better feature would be some kind of access lock. Either a keycode or something requiring a lot of strength to remove.

(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)

But is it worth having yet another insecure & hackable device on the wifi when the manufacturer quits creating FW updates? Or ever even bothers?

Off-peak electricity pricing, not wanting to wake/disturb others with noise, not wanting to consume too much hot water before the rest of the house showers or uses the clothes washer...

My 15yr old dishwasher does this with a timer functionality. This doesn’t sound like the strongest use case.

Yep, it's just a dial that lets me delay up to 12 hours lol. Overengineered hackable electronics. I'd rather than cost go into a more sturdy unit made of better materials. My dishwasher is 20 years old and works fine. The owner of the house before me said he did have one of the timer replaced at some point.

Better not to leave it too long after finishing IME, in terms of water marks and (after days/weeks, if you put it on before going away say) smell.

But that's not appy.

I would find it useful to check whether the dishwasher is currently running. At least BSH has models without any indication outside where the dishwasher is fully hidden behind a frame.

How do you set the wifi password if there's no screen that is capable of showing information?

If it has a screen then surely it's possible to show its current status.

Or, and bear with me because this is a really crazy idea... how about a single LED to show it's busy?

There is no need of a screen. Either a WPS button or start in access point mode, find its IP address, connect to a web server on that address and set the SSID and password there. I got stuff doing both ways upon the first start up or after a factory reset.

>I'd be surprised if they'd do something like that

I don't think that post was necessarily directed at Miele, but at designers designing for design sake in general.

> come running to unload it when it's done?

You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s

> You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s

Load in the evening, unload in the morning.

> functionality updates

The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.

My kitchen aid has a white light that comes on when it finishes running, and automatically shuts itself off when it is closed.

As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.

> fishing a single item out

This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."

Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.

https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...

Yeah, I'm surprised I haven't worn out the door latch on my dishwasher...

My dishwasher has a manual lever for locking during wash. I guess I know if its locked and not running and filled they are clean and can be put away.

Tesla is making dishwashers now?

“Full Self-Washing” is coming soon, just you wait!

And check out the new Ridiculous wash cycle!

The jokes practically write themselves.

"Soon you will be able to turn on your water valve and enjoy clean dishes, almost as much joy as being a part of the Tesla Family. Keep your eyes out for a dry cycle for only an additional $8000"

Is the Ridiculous Wash where you put in regular dish soap instead of dishwasher soap and the suds go all over the floor?

Or remove features altogether because they don't want to support them anymore!

In theory yes, but so far in my 43 years of life feature updates are usually things that are hostile to the user.

So things are now generally much less user friendly than 43 years ago?

Yes. Both more capable and less user friendly. 40 years ago a TV had three physical controls and one input.

Those old TVs had some serious usability issues, though. There were 10 (?) channels selectable by one knob, and then additional channels selected if the main knob was turned to the correct setting ("UHF", if I recall correctly). The master knob tended to be below the additional-frequency knob, though, which seems a little strange. Then there was the challenge of the fine adjustment ring on the UHF selector for tuning (not sure if the master knob had one). And, of course, the more frequently needed coarse adjustment from the (unmentioned) antenna, which seemed like it always needed some hacky tweaking. Including sometimes touching it continuously in order to get a good picture.

LESSON: KISS

Do never connect things to any network - and especially the internet - if it is not required for operation.

What worries are people which blindly request "more digitalization". We need resilience, not digitalization! Once a unnamed person complained about the fact the the Boeing 747-400 still gets flight data updates with a floppy. They argued it should use WiFi and central updates from a server and so on. NOT! The floppy allows control, save operation and flexible updates. Don't even add an USB-Port, this just allows someone to roast the electronics with a cheap USB-Gadget.

Just let programmers program more code doesn't make good programs. Actually it is vice versa.

Yeah but it’s so cool ? /s

Seriously I don’t understand the need at all to have your kitchen be connected to wifi at all. Not everything needs to be quantified, unless you use measuring cups for cooking.

Second I can’t trust manufacturers to rush something out the door to “fix it in post”

Consumers obviously see enough value in remote control for it to be added as a feature, I'm not sure putting the cat in the bag is a great solution at this point

That said while I do disagree with the above consumers, I don't care about remote control but I would quite like remote status updates from various appliances (is the door locked, is the washing cycle finished, has the fridge been left open, etc.)

Do they? All our Internet-connectible kitchen junk has some fine print in the manual about how the appliance will spy on you to improve ad targeting.

I suspect the only value most consumers see in these features is lower retail pricing.

Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness.

But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.

There's no particular incentive for the changes made after the sale to improve functionality, particularly if the nominal owner of the machine can't detect them. If your wash efficiency is better this month than last month, wouldn't you like to know what change caused that? How about if it's worse? What if it accidentally breaks your dishwasher? Or the new, more efficient settings no longer get your dishes fully clean?

I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.

There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.

Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.

In theory, but in practice it doesn't actually matter enough for it to make a difference. What software-only advances are being made in wash efficiency these days?

Improved detection of unlicensed dishwasher tablets.

or as Nintendo puts it "Improvements to system stability"

None, because they didn't have OTA updates... until now!

Release notes state they added and extra "dub" to the "scrubba-dub" routine. It is now a scrubba-dub-dub routine.

Release Notes v3: Accidentally added too many dubs leading to "scrubba-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub" routine. Rolled back to a reasonable number of dubs.

I've used Miele appliances for 3 decades now. Somehow, until recently, they managed to provide excellent quality and durability without spying on their users and releasing half baked firmwares in need of updates.

This is what happens when you hire / promote an overly ambitious VP and don't tell them "No" when they pitch.

This can easily been spun the other way around: There was a firmware upgrade that would save 10% energy / water / time in certain circumstances, but that evil corp hasn't provided us with a way to upgrade, because they want us to buy a brand new dishwasher.

Except that they clearly never tried to incentivize customers into frequent upgrades. Quite unlike most other brands that have a habit of dying months out of warranty.

Anecdata: In my wive's house, we have a Miele wasching machine from the year 2000. Its been used daily. It is as good as on the day it was purchased - quiet, and does not vibrate even when spinning at its max 1600 rpm. Its pretty amazing.

I believe when it was last cleaned they did install new firmware -- though to be entirely hoenest, I doubt a lot of people really know or care how efficient their wasching machines are -- water is way too cheap.

Every dishwasher I've ever used, your best bet is to put everything on full blast, least efficient settings. Otherwise the dishes get "almost" clean. I always imagine the engineers standing around patting themselves on the back after testing, and marveling how their ideas worked so well most of the dishes got clean.

The dishes all need to be totally clean, every time, or it's useless to me.

I can guarantee that the majority of the ineffective cycles are there because of environmental regulations (energy star in the US; there are equivalents in other western countries).

The big one that drives me nuts on new cars are all the auto start/stop at idle systems. They eat car batteries and starters (increase wear from oil starvation on startup too - consumer car engines are not positively lubricated; pressure has to pump back up every time the engine starts) and there is no way to disable them other than pushing a button every time you start your car (or hacking around with the wiring), but I'm sure they are critical in obtaining higher gas milage requirements so expect them to proliferate. It's crap that happens when you focus on one metric - gas milage - to the exclusion of "the big picture" such as total carbon footprint over the life of the car including the manufacturing and replacement costs/environmental impact of replacing prematurely worn out parts from "energy efficient" design decisions.

Regardless of the reason for these "ineffective cycles", I use them. They work well. Not sure what the big deal is.

Isn't this the truth. Over Christmas family was around and someone loaded the dishwater and put it on economical or whatever the 'easy wash' mode was called, i chuckled knowing they might as well waved the dirty dishes in the sky for an equilavent wash. Its like, why are the other options even there...Intensive wash, every time.

Does not match my experience. I have a fairly regular Bosch dishwasher and use the ECO mode almost exclusively without any issues.

Same experience here. This can’t be right though. Surely we are the exceptions and there really are idiotic committees forcing manufacturers to include eco settings that don’t work - rather than the other explanation of some dishwashers being crap?

My Mum has a Hotpoint because she skimped on it during a kitchen refit. It's complete crap compared to a mid-tier Bosch: the cleaning is worse, the tablet often gets stuck in the tray, and it doesn't dry properly.

That said, even the Bosch needed a new heat pump after 3 years which was an adventure in unreasonably complex disassembly.

Probably also depends on if or how carefully you rinse before putting stuff in there.

I rinse things pretty well beforehand and use quick wash and it works well.

Don't use detergent pods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Yup - the amount of excess detergent alone that is being washed into the wastewater systems is staggering when you think about how much is extra detergent in fixed size pods is wasted across the board.

My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.

We humans can be so annoying sometimes.

EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p

Super informative! Saying that I use pods and my dishes come out perfect. Might be because we do them daily so nothing is ever too crusted on.

tl;dw (but you really should watch this):

- Don't use pods

- Fill the main and prewash cups every time. The prewash is intended to be used every time, not just when the dishes are exceptionally dirty.

- Run the hot water in the attached sink to full heat to ensure the washer gets filled with hot water

Until we use the last of the pods up I've found if you put a squirt or two of Dawn Powerwash in for the prewash it works amazingly well. And before the inevitable comments come up: unlike regular dish soap (do NOT put in a dishwasher) it doesn't suds up either. Yeah, it does a little at first but by the end of the prewash cycle the foam is gone - yes, I have checked.

As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.

As long as I clean my dishes before I put them in the washer, I never have any issues.

I don't have any issues putting dirty dishes in my dishwasher. Do you use pre-wash detergent in your machine? I highly recommend you watch this video by Technology connections[1], I too used to think I had to rinse my dishes before putting them in the machine.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Mom? Is that you?

Was that intended to be ironic?

Nope, that's how you're "supposed" to use them.

Seriously, you too can save a bunch of electricity and wasted time by pre-washing stuff before putting it in the dishwasher.

I do agree that it sounds like satire, though.

I have a Bosch dishwasher and in the manual it actually states not to pre-rinse the dishes before putting them into the dishwasher. Of course I rinse the bigger pieces of food off anyway because otherwise the filter will need to be cleaned more often (doesn't have a grinder/disposal), but it does also waste a ton of water, and energy heating that water, to pre-wash your dishes.

I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.

> I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.

This. Filling a dishwasher is an art of binpacking in itself. I'm pretty satisfied by my Bosch one, unless it is just a1-2 cycle before asking for the cleaning cycle, 95% of the times everything come up perfectly clean, even with the "eco" program. When something comes out dirty (if everything was properly placed), usually it will nag you to clean the dishwasher on the next cycle or the other.

Says who? This is from Miele's user manual:

> There is no need to rinse items under running water!

Dishwashers already pre-wash with an initial rinse cycle, the whole point is that they do the washing for you. It's also a whole lot more efficient in terms of water waste.

The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.

> The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.

That is really interesting, as I do use pods. I need to look into this more.

More generally, I have had a lot more success with not needing to re-wash things if I rinse before hand (but I don't have a miele).

The secret is to put powdered detergent into the pre-wash tray. That and make sure it starts out with hot water...

I've never pre-washed dishes unless it is rice. Everything else goes straight into the dishwasher as it was collected from the table. Always comes out clean and never had problems (unless it is rice... which seems to never get fully rinsed away).

I never do, and my dishwasher works fine? What am I doing wrong? Why would I "prewash" and waste precious water and time when it's going to be washed just fine?

A bit of both, I think.

Some people put the dirtiest dishes in the history of humanity in their washer and then complain it doesn’t clean very well. A quick rinse with water to get the chunks, or the really caked on stuff off works wonders.

We just run the normal eco program without any extras. The dishes get perfectly clean every time as long as nothing hinders the rotating arms that spray water.

This is the big cause of issues for us (Bosch 800). Either the arms are blocked or the holes clogged, or the middle rack's hose junction hasn't properly mated with the water source at the back of the machine.

Overall I'm really happy with this machine though; worth the pretty penny it costs.

Depends on the size of your household a bit. If it runs every second day, it should not be a problem. If you save dishes for a week or two, the additional water from the intensive program really helps to get rid of dried out dirt.

In that case it's called not a dishwasher, but a Cockroach Breeding System.

No, for that you have the rats eating the cockroaches.

Ours runs 2-3 times a day, but even still, I typically soak all the cutlery in a tall glass or pitcher full of water in the sink, and load it last minute. There are just too many nooks and crannies for stuff to get stuck in on a fork or knife, and they cleaning they get in a three-rack machine is too gentle for anything other than a sterilizing rinse.

My Bosch gets everything sparkling every time on the eco mode (50 degrees, but takes nearly 4 hours).

The only time it ever fails is when something blocks a rotor and half a tray doesn't get any water on the underside.

But I don't think spraying more, hotter water at the clean half will help that.

Does your dishwasher have a water softening system?

> Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo.

Or it is treated by the same algorithm like all the other cleaning powders, which is: "mix with water then spray through nozzles". Strangly enough, this has worked great for decades without firmware updates. For the longest time it even worked without firmware.

mile dishwasher has detergent disk with 400g of powder. amount of powder to be dispensed per cycle is configurable.

Mine has a little compartment where I put in a block of pressed powder (a "tab") and then close it.

If I want more, I put in 2 tabs.

If I want none, I put in no tab.

If I want my dishes to smell like soup, I put in a buillon cube. (Not recommended by whoever built the Dishwasher)

Maybe a silly question, but does Miele require a specific kind of cleaning powder or packet, or does it have an option to tell it what kind of cleaning powder you're using?

My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is forced to use individual pods.

But if that's the case then I'm not sure how this would work unless the user enters a config setting or something for what soap they're commonly using. Water hardness the washer could measure itself, I guess.

Edit: another commenter below (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147979) links to the manual (https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...), which answers most of these questions.

> does Miele require a specific kind of cleaning powder or packet

No.

But they do have an auto-dosing capability on some models that take a disk and dispense the right amount of powder for the given wash.

Which? reviewed this and concluded it's a gimmick: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/is-this-miele-dishwashe... . I agree with this verdict.

The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.

My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.

Entire dishwasher it's a gimmick. you can wash dishes yourself. or you can use dishwasher in order to save some time. same with auto-dosing - it's a convenience and it's really convenient. with regards to pricing: machine comes with 6 disks. You can refill them later with usual powder in a couple of minutes.

Another gimmick that machine has, it's auto-opening at the end of the cycle in order to vent off steam.

I had many different dishwashers over the years, but Miele one is so far the best I ever had

it's manual for older miele. in new one you can either use standard detergent (pod, liquid, powder) or you can insert special 400g disc of powder and it was be auto-dispensed

Do they? Because that's literally the only kind of update I'd be interested in. If they actually regularly improve the way the dishwasher washes dishes, then that justifies the connectivity, but if these updates are rare, then I don't really care about them.

Doubt they would have any incentives to do anything but the bare minimum considering it doesn't appear to be a paid service?

Because it'd be too easy to just invest some time beforehand to figure out the optimal process beforehand.

Maybe there's some new dirt-sensing algorithms that can use crowd-sourced info to improve the efficiency for your specific dirt patterns and water type and detergent combination.

Amazing anybody had any clean dishes with dishwashers before the advent of the internet and wifi so the dishwasher could connect to them.

please click on three dirty coffee cups

Man if it could sense when the dishes are loaded so poorly that there’s no chance they get clean and just refuse to run until they’re rearranged, that would be so nice!

> Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo.

Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."

The cynic in me would be really surprised if this were the case. I imagine it's more about collecting data, and updating so it can collect more data, better.

I would expect them to eventually be pressured into shortening the drying cycle to hit some green goal, making you dry more dishes by hand.

We used to get this right before stamping them out in the factory. Instead, everything is all appy now, for the benefit of the manufacturer. They are riding the hype to normalize their shitty behavior. Sort of like when banks inconvenience you for thier sake and say it's to protect you (the person under no risk of liability).

Wouldn't want hackers to hack your analog dishwasher through the power grid!

Important to remember these kinds of devices might not have any personal info on them, but they can still be useful for DDoS attacks and other things that are bad for everyone.

It's kind of ironic that you can use IoT light bulbs to bring down the power grid if cyber warfare ever truly breaks out.

As opposed to stupider and more tedious ways to do firmware updates.

Real-world examples:

(1) Download firmware, stick it on a USB drive, put USB drive in device, go through arcane menus or button press sequence to do an update. I have two devices that work this way, an aftermarket car stereo Bluetooth adapter and a (musical) keyboard.

(2) Install some app (and maybe a driver) on a Windows computer, connect device to computer, and have the app push the firmware to the device. I have an old Garmin GPS watch that does it this way. (Which is extra annoying because the watch has an Android companion app which communicates with the watch over Bluetooth, and it can tell you an update is available but can't apply it.)

LOL my exact thoughts. I mean I would think the kinks would be worked out before it hits my kitchen. I mean it's a dishwasher, not a robotic arm assembling cars with sub mm resolution. Add an emergency usb connection for critical upgrades as in "woah we missed something really big" and be done.

The WiFi functionality on Miele appliances is completely optional. Just don’t connect it to WiFi during initial setup and it’ll never do anything connected or prompt you about it. You can also reset the config if you change your mind later. You can even buy the cheaper model without WiFi. Frankly, I don’t see the problem here.