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Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by paulgb on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:23PM (#29153769)
The thing that excites me most about e-bikes is that they change the politics around cycling. Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

With e-bikes becoming more common, I know a number of people who would not have touched a bike share but are using it as a replacement for Uber/Lyft rides. People can cycle in to work without breaking a sweat.

It's a bummer that so much legislation aimed at reducing emissions subtly encourages the use of cars without throwing any bones to people who would like to ride bikes, electric or not.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevincrane on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:36PM (#29153892)
> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

Which I think is misguided pushback btw (which I think you agree with based on the context).

I see it as a chicken and egg thing. The roads are unsafe for bikers, so the only people who bike are those who are super dedicated to it. Then when people ask for the roads to be safer, it gets pushed back as "only biking enthusiasts use the roads now".

Safer roads means more people will bike, which means biking will stop being seen as an elitist thing.

Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jmcphers on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:49PM (#29156339)
> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

It's true that a bicycle is itself cheaper than a car, but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. The bicycle itself isn't the expensive part; you need proximity, extra commute time, and infrastructure. That stuff just isn't accessible to many people.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by richiebful1 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:27PM (#29157735)
This doesn't generalize to most cities though. In my Rust Belt city, the government has put a lot of effort into making cycling safer on the road. The people cycling from one neighborhood to the next are a diverse bunch. Kids are using cheap hand-me-down bikes to go to school. College kids are commuting to campus. Adults of all ages are riding to work at a service job or downtown office.

What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods.

The rich lycra-wearing stereotype won't go away until we invest in equitable access to bike infrastructure.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mcny on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:10AM (#29158675)
» What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods.

I've never been to Chattanooga, TN but once I realized I can work from home I've been curious about owning a home somewhere with gigabit fiber but without ridiculously expensive real estate within commuting distance to a Costco or Sam's Club (so clearly not Jersey City, NJ or Longmont, CO).

What I noticed just looking at Google Maps Street View was that any home within my price range lacked a sidewalk. Apparently, only the wealthy people in Chattanooga, TN need sidewalks. How do we talk about bike lanes when places lack sidewalks?

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:20AM (#29158738)
TN is a tax haven state. You're not going to get polished municipal services and infrastructure.

Western New York has cheap housing and older, 150+ year old urbanization that doesn't suffer as much from 20th century shortsightedness.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Symbiote on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:38AM (#29159919)
How are sidewalks "polish"?

In most of the world, they're the default thing - before a roadway suitable for cars, before piped water, before sewers, before electricity.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ThunderSizzle on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:17AM (#29161306)
Because where you gonna walk to? Your gonna walk 5 miles to Target and back?

That'd why sidewalks is polish. Most sidewalks I see outside of tight downtowns are useless and barely used, and they aren't free to build and they don't generate anything if no one uses them...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BizarroLand on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:16PM (#29169409)
I've been to and through Chattanooga a bunch of times. It is a city where you almost definitely need a car for basic subsistence.

The poor areas are super poor and semi-distant from goods and services. Biking somewhere from the poor areas, unless you have time and energy to spare, is going to be a big undertaking most of the time, not even accounting for the hills.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:41PM (#29164739)
They are not a default thing anywhere in America that developed after WW2. Most car centric places dispense with them as an "unnecessary" cost or, where they do exist, they're disconnected decoration with limited utility.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by howenterprisey on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:26AM (#29159439)
What are some other tax haven states I should know about?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by liveoneggs on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:33AM (#29163048)
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire, and Wyoming
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nonesuchluck on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:48PM (#29170855)
I've lived in Chattanooga long enough to call it home (decade+). First thing about Chattanooga is, it's built on the backbone of the Interstate system, in the valley between some mountains. It's a bigtime car city. Anyone outside our immediate downtown has to hop the highway to even get here, or brave treacherous mountain roads (our W Road is even a tiny bit famous... W not being a compass point, but a shape).

As you've noticed on Google, our downtown and close-lying (expensive) neighborhoods have sidewalks and bike lanes aplenty. They're fantastic. But there's no similar facilities in older, poorer, and outlying neighborhoods (many of which were simply suburbs until the city crept in). Nor any practical connection between neighborhoods for foot+pedal traffic.

But our internet's great.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by liveoneggs on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:30AM (#29163010)
riding a bike in Chattanooga takes some muscle! Sidewalks are pretty optional in most of the south east, even in "wealthy" areas.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by motioncuty on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:52AM (#29163345)
Longmonts costco is in superior, not too far. Its pretty nice.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mjmahone17 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:16PM (#29156520)
Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments.

Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sdenton4 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:59PM (#29156819)
The right way to drive a little bit is car share programs, or just eating a car rental fee occasionally. Mean cost of car ownership in the US is over $9000; you can buy a damn fancy e-bike and rent a car a few times in a year and still come out quite far ahead. (and you only need to buy the e-bike approximately once.)

https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bryanlarsen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:09AM (#29161902)
I had a friend who used to rent a limo for first and special dates. Even that was cheaper than owning a car.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @11:46AM (#29176826)
Limos (especially older ones) are surprisingly cheap. Growing up, my family of 5 used to take a limo to the airport for vacations. It felt kind of ridiculous, but it was actually about the same price as the 2 taxis we would've had to take (and obviously way more pleasant), which itself was cheaper than parking and leaving a car at the airport.

It probably says more about how expensive taxis were pre-Uber. I'm sure ride shares are a nontrivial part of living without a car today.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by chrisseaton on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#29157130)
> Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant

Housing isn’t abundant within 50 miles of London and other similar major cities, let alone 5.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cjrp on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:49AM (#29159589)
It's true, but with a folding bike your criteria for a house can now be "fewer than 5 miles away from a tube/train line" and let the public transport do the heavy lifting.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by barry-cotter on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:12AM (#29158686)
That's a fact about policy choices, not something that can't be changed. If building housing wasn't illegal it would be built. Developers love money and the Green Belt is quite big enough to spare one Mnahattan's area if it was politically possible to build a Manhattan's worth of housing on it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by chrisseaton on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:24AM (#29160223)
> That's a fact about policy choices, not something that can't be changed.

Ok but now we’ve moved from ‘bicycling is relatively practical’ to ‘it’d be relatively practical if only everything about our politics and built environment was instantly completely different.’

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pharmakom on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:34AM (#29158827)
Consider that a comparable amount of space is dedicated to car parking as parks in London.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by aigo on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:30AM (#29159101)
And there are a lot of parks and green spaces in London!

The amount of on street car parking in zones 2-3 is insane. Now that actually IS a subsidy to rich people.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fnord77 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#29156704)
5 miles is quite a distance for a bike commute. I've done about this distance for a while and I won't go back to doing it.

Interestingly, the average distance the Dutch ride is about 1.2 miles per day:

https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:50PM (#29156757)
5 miles is a very easy bike commute, not sure what you're talking about. It's about 20 minutes each way.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by vishnugupta on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:38AM (#29158467)
> 5 miles is a very easy bike commute

Having done a similar distance in the cycling capital of the world for about a year I wouldn't exactly call it "easy". I was happy to exchange it for a bus + tram combination even though it added ~15 minutes. Though I'll admit it's nice to be able to commute that distance by bike once or twice a week; but to do it day in and day out gets tiring.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:25AM (#29159083)
> to do it day in and day out gets tiring

Can confirm this: I'm doing a 14 km commute and yes, for the first few weeks it's really tiring. Wanted to go to sleep as soon as I got home every afternoon. However, after say 2 or 3 months, your metabolism sort of adapts to it and you do it "naturally", without thinking too much about it. The idea of taking the bus again makes me anxious, though.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by LAC-Tech on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:44PM (#29157104)
It's a very easy bike commute for the kind of people who self-select as riding bicycles.

General population would struggle. I used to bike commute twice that distance regularly and think that'd take me more like 25, maybe 30 now that I haven't done it for almost 2 years.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:38AM (#29158126)
Funny thing about exercise is you get better at it, people who have had ebikes for a while (especially the ones that assist based on pedal power) tend to be less overweight and fitter for a reason. Also trikes work just fine for someone with mobility or balance problems (although a decent e trike is by no means cheap, similar up front to a second hand car).

I live in a city with mediocre to poor bike infrastructure at best, and I see plenty of 50-70 year old women doing 25km/h on ebikes or 10-15km/h on regular bikes.

Granted I wasn't overweight when I started, but after 5 years of largely being a couch potato and doing office work, I averaged around 20km/h or ~12mph door to door over a commute of 10 miles on a 40lb trike.

After getting fitter I'm about the same speed but a shower and change of clothes at the other end is optional now even on a 32C day rather than being drenched.

Your experience can only be due to bike hostile infrastructure or laws. If you had to stop three times for 2-5 minutes a piece at each intersection in a car while the empty lane for bikes and pedestrians got a green light on the off chance they showed up, you'd probably be complaining about how inconvenient driving was.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by LAC-Tech on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:06AM (#29159313)
> Your experience can only be due to bike hostile infrastructure or laws.

No, I'm just a person with very little natural fitness who happened to enjoy riding a bicycle.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:38AM (#29158130)
That's what e-bikes are for.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wmil on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#29156825)
Google maps estimates it about 35 minutes, so almost twice as long as you're thinking.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:04PM (#29156845)
I do it every day. It depends on elevation gain (so it could take much longer depending on the route) but usually I'm closer to 15 minutes than 20. 15mph on average for a daily bike commuter doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by breuleux on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:38PM (#29157062)
It depends on location, if you're biking in a city at rush hour you're stopping every other block, getting stuck behind other cyclists, and at least where I live, constantly slowing down to avoid getting killed by potholes. There's basically no way you're doing 5 miles in 20 minutes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by initplus on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:57AM (#29158237)
On the other hand, if you are in heavy traffic stopping constantly at lights other traffic is also going to be travelling at that same slow speed.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:43PM (#29157099)
That's fair. I biked in San Diego last week and the lights/potholes were brutal.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by oarabbus_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:25AM (#29158047)
You're claiming you can ride 5 miles in closer to 15 minutes than 20, and through a city?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Jensson on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:09AM (#29159329)
If you commute you will mostly ride on dedicated bike lanes without many stops so you can go at full speed most of the way. I've commuted around 3 miles in a not so bike friendly city in Europe and it took about 15 minutes since there are dedicated bikeways without any traffic lights you can take most of the way.

If you commute in rush hour that is actually a lot faster than going by car, so biking is the fastest option available.

Edit: And that was at a leisurely pace, similar to the effort of walking.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by lmm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:27AM (#29158054)
Google maps pads their bike times by a huge amount. (I just googled 8km in 35 minutes and got results asking about that as a running pace).
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tomcooks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:26AM (#29158389)
That's due to the sES spamfest fitness blog driven results.

Google maps calculations are decided by Google and take into account padding plus some degree of inclination calculation

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by usefulcat on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:45PM (#29157838)
I used to do a 5 mile commute. I didn’t have to deal with any major elevation changes, and it was about 35 minutes. Maybe a professional athlete could do it in 20, but they would still have to wait at stoplights occasionally. You will definitely arrive sweaty unless you are in a very cold climate. All that said, I consider 5 miles to be pretty reasonable for a bike commute.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrb on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:29AM (#29158405)
You are both right: 5 miles is about 20min on an electric bike, but 35min on a traditional bike.

I do a 4.8-mile trip on a class 3 ebike (28 mph) consistently in 14 minutes in San Diego north county.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rhinoceraptor on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:44PM (#29157110)
That would be an extremely leisurely pace. If you commute regularly on a bike and are reasonably fit, you should be able to ride at about 12 mph without breaking a sweat, which gets you a time of about 25 minutes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by oarabbus_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:24AM (#29158038)
Obtaining a speed of 12mph is not difficult for most reasonably fit people.

_Averaging_ a 12mph pace with signal lights, traffic, and stop signs is an entirely different story, especially in a busy cities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by usefulcat on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:48PM (#29157854)
Sure, if you never have to wait for a stoplight.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nayaketo on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:23AM (#29158370)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Drunk_Engineer on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:39AM (#29158864)
YMMV. Google map estimates for cycling are very inaccurate in my experience.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by louhike on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:46AM (#29159571)
It depends on where you ride. My commute is 5 miles, and it takes 30 minutes, even though I'm used to bike, because of the circulation, all the time I have to stop.

I agree it's easy if you're fit though. But I know it can be a pain for people who don't do sport at least weekly.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _ph_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:58AM (#29160484)
Well, first of all, if you bike regularly, you get all the training you need. The first couple of weeks are perhaps a bit hard, but that's about it for anyone in somewhat ok shape. And then there is the catch which is also the headline of the article we are discussing here: e-bikes. They allow anyone to go at a reasonable speed even uphill. That is, why they create a huge biking crowd.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by louhike on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:47PM (#29166515)
Indeed!
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ericmcer on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:50AM (#29158534)
On a quiet flat road 5 miles is a pleasant cruise, through a hilly busy city even 1-2 miles can be a huge pain.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cowmoo728 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:19PM (#29157690)
8km is bad if the rider has to wait at a lot of stoplights or cross a lot of roads. But if there's a good cycle path, 8km is a comfortable and easy cruise. Even easier on an e-bike. I did a 9km commute down the west side bike path of Manhattan and I found it to be easy and relaxing compared to much shorter commutes through SF, for example.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jkdufair on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:50PM (#29156753)
A 5 mile commute on an eBike is trivial.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fnord77 on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:45PM (#29157486)
I have a class 3 ebike (28 mph). I found the 5 mile commute exhausting even though I wasn't exerting myself much. Mentally exhausting, I guess. It's trivial once - it's a grind doing it 2x every day. This is in San Francisco. I'm in good shape, I run 4-5 miles a couple times a week.

I think the worst part is a stop sign every block.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by scott_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#29158297)
As you’ve highlighted: it’s the infrastructure slowing you down. That’s why cities need to build good bike infrastructure, so it’s safe and easy to ride around.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BoxOfRain on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:30AM (#29159866)
> Mentally exhausting, I guess.

I used to commute by (ordinary) cycling and this is a huge part of it. It's stressful navigating on urban roads through taxis and vans who seem to see you as the equivalent of a preachy vegan on wheels and drive like complete arses as a result. I've been literally run off the road by people who either can't be bothered to check their mirrors or have some creepy notion that cyclists "deserve" to be scared off the road by their aggressive driving. The only deterrent seems to be wearing a camera because they know it's the only way they'll ever have a chance of facing prosecution for it.

I'd never dream of telling someone else how to live their lives, I'm not one of those moral crusaders who endlessly harrass people about giving up their cars in favour of bikes. I just don't want to get mowed down by Billy Big Bollocks because he's too important to wait ten seconds to overtake safely.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rectang on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:18PM (#29156936)
That depends on road conditions and layout, typical traffic, weather, general health (need decent balance, eyesight, hearing, ability to ride over potholes, enough toughness that a spill isn't life-threatening)...

I could go for "often doable".

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 542354234235 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:25PM (#29165344)
>general health (need decent balance, eyesight, hearing

That’s a pretty uncharitable reading of their comment. It is obvious we are talking about people that are already physically capable of riding a bike and are discussing a specific distance for a commute.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rectang on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:31PM (#29167056)
Well, that comment is quite absolute in its assessment of a five mile e-bike commute as "trivial". It brooks no exceptions even for stoplights or congested traffic conditions. It is not at all obvious to me what assumptions I am supposed to make when reading it, and its ancestor comments do not establish context as to what assumptions to make either.

Even so, I tried to find common ground by merely softening the "trivial" language to "often doable" rather than contradicting. Because clearly it will sometimes be "trivial".

So, I disagree with your assessment of "uncharitable". And I am taken aback that there is so much bitter contention over this issue when it seems to me as though the important thing is that e-bikes have made commutes much easier in general.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jeffbee on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:09PM (#29156476)
> bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks

Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders.

https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:22PM (#29156961)
In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners.

For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by johnwalkr on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:50PM (#29157153)
I think this is North American centric. In Asia and Europe housing to job centres is probably closer on average due to zoning. There’s less separation of “suburban housing areas” and “working areas”. There’s also less separation to shopping, etc so bikes are more feasible in general.

For these reason and I’m sure others, bicycles for commuting are more popular outside of North America.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ben_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:24AM (#29159425)
> but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks.

Perhaps in some places (where the major newspapers are?), but there area I grew up in has residential, industrial, and commercial all mixed up in a way that solves that issue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276

(Likewise Berlin, though Berlin also has much better public transport).

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stavros on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:26AM (#29159845)
I think the zoning thing is more of a "US vs other places" issue.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ben_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:32AM (#29160862)
I was thinking that at first and was originally going to suggest that, then I realised there’s a similar stereotype in the UK despite the mixed land use.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by slt2021 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:10PM (#29156880)
i heard that in US living in downtown is for poor people, and rich people prefer slrawling suburbs
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by zdragnar on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:40PM (#29157444)
I saw an article the other day about a woman in California who rents a studio apartment (i.e. no dedicated bedroom) for $1900 a month, and was worried it would jump up to the usual $2,300 a month after the covid special pricing ended.

Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, or a nicely remodeled house with a small yard and river views in a town if you prefer. Or, with enough for a minimum down payment saved up, you could also buy a small house on 5 acres in a forest.

Granted, you'll pay more for owning a car, but... deciding between studio, or a prime house for $300 less per month, and the car doesn't sound too unreasonable.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dragonwriter on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#29157499)
> Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land,

Probably do that in rural CA, too (certainly you can get a nice single family home in many CA suburbs), and not be as far (but probably still too far) from the job the individual in question has that enables paying $2,000/mo in the first place. And similar work closer (to either rural CA or the upper Midwest) would pay less.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by zdragnar on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:15PM (#29157669)
Eh, most people near me commute less than an hour to a metro area with pretty much any job you could want available, if you didn't like what nearby jobs were paying. I'm not quite rural, but not suburbia either (nearest burb is 15 minutes of driving once you get to the highway).

If you went really rural, you would be able to get much more for your money.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:41PM (#29157082)
That was the stereotypical pattern for decades, but gentrification has somewhat reversed it in first tier cities. Families with small children do still tend to move out to the suburbs in search of better quality schools and more living space.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by The-Bus on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:26PM (#29154488)
> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

The thought that biking is only for the rich is especially galling when I hear it said about NYC cyclists. The person saying this is thinking of the lycra'd-up dentist riding a Pinarello Dogma. The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June. Williamsburg had 230,000.[1] Cycling is much more prevalent than non-cyclers think.

1: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bike-counts.sh...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rootusrootus on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:37PM (#29155768)
> The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June.

That's not bad at all, close to 10% of car traffic, based on old numbers.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cmos on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:11PM (#29156073)
Throw into this confusion a badly implemented public transportation system that you find in most US cities.

Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride. We all pay taxes to keep roads maintained, we should all pay taxes to keep public transportation maintained.

Not charging would help busses keep their schedules with less queuing and waiting, tourists would be less likely to rent a car, and it could help that chicken and egg problem. The problem with charging people with riding public transportation is you are taxing the very people we should be rewarding. The people who are committing to taking up less space on the road and living with a smaller carbon footprint are being penalized for their hugely beneficial decision to society not to drive. Making public transportation better and free are the two things that can transform a city and make it more equitable. Poor people would have more money and more places available to spend it. Every city benefits from its people having more money to spend and more places to spend it.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by danielheath on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:54PM (#29156368)
> Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride.

This would depend on first fixing the poverty and homelessness that make theft, vandalism and antisocial behaviour so common. These things cost money to protect them from the impact desperate people otherwise have on them.

Now, I’d be thrilled to help pay for that to all happen, but the order should be respected; making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by grayfaced on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:08PM (#29157619)
For some reason people accept cars as the natural order. Challenge that assumption. There are lots of deficient drivers too, why do we so heavily subsidize the road system? Because it's an investment that pays back in increased economic activity. The same argument applies to public transit. In many cases it costs more to collect the fare then they ever make in fare.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nitrogen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:28AM (#29158403)
There are lots of deficient drivers too, why do we so heavily subsidize the road system? Because it's an investment that pays back in increased economic activity.

Also because when you are in separate cars, you can't get sick from, or harassed by, or groped by, other drivers. If another driver is bothering you, you can usually just speed up or slow down to increase distance.

To get true mass adoption of public transit in the US, as the parent comment said, you need to fix "the poverty and homelessness that make theft, vandalism and antisocial behaviour so common," or at least work around it. Maybe trains with a hundred doors leading to a hundred isolated seating areas would convince people.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bpye on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:39PM (#29167856)
Except deficient drivers can and do result in serious injury or death of other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. I’m still not too sure I understand your argument… Why should we so heavily subsidise car drivers?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jeffbee on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:11PM (#29156486)
> This would depend on first fixing poverty and homelessness

How convenient for the car lobby that their luxuriously subsidized travel mode already excludes the poor, making them immune from this line of reasoning!

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:08PM (#29156460)
"making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds."

It might be expebsive, but it's definately as simple as it sounds.

I do not see how vandalism will be any different than it is today

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by amluto on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:54PM (#29156778)
Simpler, really. There’s a whole bunch of complexity and crime related to public transit billing systems, fare gates, and fare gate accessibility. On busses, people who pay slowly add to the per-stop time.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by johnwalkr on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:54PM (#29157179)
Most cities make roads and abundant parking free, there’s no technical reason why other forms or transportation can’t be favored instead.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by hellbannedguy on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:55PM (#29156781)
Ok, how about just busses, and trains?

Most bike thiefs are not homeless, especially high end bikes.

Not to many homeless have a bolt cutter in their worn packs, nor do they have a way to sell, or part out.

In my liberal wealthy enclave, it's middle class guys doing the stealing, or gangs.

(This whole blaming the homeless needs to stop. Most don't have the savy to steal a locked bike. Plus--riding a nice bike is a cop calling card. I know homeless guys who are afraid to carry their own prescriptions in their pack because they frisked so frequently.)

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by emodendroket on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:22PM (#29156562)
At the very least it should be much cheaper than driving.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ryukafalz on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:57PM (#29154164)
> The roads are unsafe for bikers, so the only people who bike are those who are super dedicated to it. Then when people ask for the roads to be safer, it gets pushed back as "only biking enthusiasts use the roads now".

Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Johnny555 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:02PM (#29156005)
Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river.

It's even worse since the bridge will be built with connecting roadways on both sides so it will be instantly popular.

But often a few bike lanes will be constructed in isolation,t then people will complain "Look, we built these expensive bike lanes to nowhere and no one is even using them!" It takes a rich network of safe bike infrastructure to get average riders to use bikes. At least eBikes make hills less of an impediment.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by photojosh on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:44PM (#29156305)
What compounds the problem is that the bike lanes are often built where it is easy and non-controversial to do so... and so the actually difficult spots get left until last... which are often the key points that dissuade people.

Key example [0], the difference between the north and south entrances to the Sydney Harbour Bridge cycleway, which are under different local governments. The North Sydney council is actively fighting an upgrade [1], whereas on the south side it's smooth access expanding into a network of bike paths.

In my city, the major conflict points are all short stretches of busy narrow road, while paths are going in elsewhere.

[0] https://bicyclensw.org.au/a-tale-of-two-sydneys/ [1] https://architectureau.com/articles/sydney-harbour-bridge-cy...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by robotresearcher on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:11PM (#29156482)
This is a very important point. Bikeways, like roadways, are a system.

My South Bay commute has nice bike paths part of the way, but they stop just short of a major highway-freeway intersection. Sure, it would be tough to build a good bike lane through this busy, high speed intersection. So there isn’t one. So the bike path just… stops. And you have to navigate this scary section to proceed. So almost nobody does.

It’s such a shame since we have among the best bike-weather in the world, and a fairly flat basin to ride in. A little more infrastructure would help a lot. And e-bikes have their place for people going more than 20 mins and need to arrive feeling presentable.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by gsinclair on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:24PM (#29156168)
> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

Here’s a theory: road cycling is more available to those who live reasonably close to work and have time to spare, and that is relatively rich people. Poorer people literally cannot afford not to have a car because they have to travel long distances to work, and their areas are not well served by public transport.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Retric on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:23PM (#29156975)
The real difference is people working 9-5 see other commuters working 9-5 where students, working class, and poor people have a much wider range of schedules.

As to living near the urban core, inner cities have a lot of relatively poor people. Roommates and HUD style affordable housing add another dimension to housing that’s not obvious to most people. Twenty to Thirty percent of the units have been set aside for low or middle-income residents, which means the monthly rent is affordable to low or middle-income households and those households must qualify at the outset. https://www.residenewyork.com/faq/how-many-units-are-allocat...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:45AM (#29158166)
This might be different in the US, but here in Berlin access to cars correlates very strongly with income. The majority of below-median-income households don't have a car, whereas the top earners have several.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rdtwo on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:33PM (#29156629)
That and they often work at night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wolverine876 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:24PM (#29156981)
> night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike

Not necessarily. There is often less traffic at night, for example. It depends on how well-lit the route is.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scoundreller on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:40PM (#29157075)
And it's really impressive what you can get for $35 in bike lights these days.

I use this set (with the 1000 lm):

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002708075115.html

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Spooky23 on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:21PM (#29155634)
You have a point, but the Lance Armstrong wannabes make everyone miserable. In my area, they “took over” a popular bike trail and now kids and more casual people are pushed aside.

It’s like dealing with serious lap swimmers.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Johnny555 on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:58PM (#29155972)
If you think fast cycling "Lance Armstrong wannabes" are bad, wait until the trail is taken over by 30mph eBike riders that not only aren't experienced enough to ride safely at that speed, but they bolted on the eBike drive to a bike that was not intended for that speed.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notlion on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:37PM (#29157430)
30mph is often needed to keep up with cars in areas where the bike infrastructure is poor or nonexistent. If you can't maintain the speed of traffic, cars will try to pass creating a more dangerous situation for the ebike rider.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tomcooks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:36AM (#29158456)
I fail to find the connection between speed and safety, especially from a completely unshielded pilot point of view. It's not a bike's job to maintain safety and traffic speed, but the opposite.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by joshuaissac on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:53AM (#29159609)
> It's not a bike's job to maintain safety and traffic speed, but the opposite.

It does not matter whose job it is. If increasing speed improves safety for the cyclist, in this case by reducing the incentive for car drivers to overtake, then a good number of cyclists will do it.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:12PM (#29164345)
I'd like to see the proof that increasing speed improves safety for the cyclist.

There's no road I commute on (including 25 mph city streets) where a 30mph bike would keep up with traffic, riding a skinny tire 40 lb bike at 30mph in the road shoulder that passes for bike lanes around here sounds hazardous.

If I wanted to keep up with car traffic so I can ride in the road, I'd get an e-scooter or e-motorcycle that's designed for higher speed. But then I couldn't ride in bike lanes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by joshuaissac on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:54PM (#29167338)
> in the road shoulder that passes for bike lanes

Bike lanes do not exist in most places. The poster had said that their comment was about:

> areas where the bike infrastructure is poor or nonexistent

If there are bike lanes, then being overtaken by cars is not as much of a problem. But in most places, cyclists have to use the same lanes as motorised traffic, so it is more important to be able to keep up.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by baash05 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:18AM (#29159793)
When you're hit by a car, or passed by a bus, you realise quickly that it's your job. Because someone has to do the job, or you die.

They should, but OMG cars don't

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:18PM (#29165243)
I built a 35mph capable ebike from a lot on a MTB with dual disc brakes and the best s-pedelec tires I could find and I'm pretty stressed out already at 35kph. I can't imagine doing 50kph much less on a bike that isn't intended for it. You really would have to be almost suicidal.

I have to say though being able to keep up with cars when I can't have a bike lane is pretty nice.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:20PM (#29156136)
Unless you’re on a major downhill, there’s no street legal e-bike doing 30 MPH.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Johnny555 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:05PM (#29156853)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jay_kyburz on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#29157133)
I haven't seen it in the comments yet, but it will only be a matter of time before these ebikes will need to be registered, have a number plate, and can receive speeding tickets.

Right now there is no way to identify a speeding bicycle, no matter how fast its going. You could be doing 50 in a 40 zone and there is no way to issue a fine.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:22AM (#29158030)
Bikes are frequently pulled over for speeding. I don’t know where you live, but cops like to set up bicycle stings at the bottom of hills in the Bay Area. Not to mention giving out tickets for things like missing bike bells. Oh, and if you don’t register your bike with the police good luck having them help with recovery.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Johnny555 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:14PM (#29164372)
I have a friend that got a speeding ticket on the back side of the Marin Headlands - it was a moving violation, he went to driving school to keep it off his record.

Where in the Bay Area are bells required? I've never heard of police there ever enforcing equipment requirements, not even lights at night.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sokoloff on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:57PM (#29156387)
That depends on the jurisdiction. In MA, it’s a point of ambiguity, but I think that’s resolved in favor of e-bikes being treated as mopeds today (with a max of 30mph): https://www.massbike.org/ebikes
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fennecfoxen on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:20PM (#29156948)
Wait until you live in NYC and they go this speed in the wrong direction on a one way street and want you to brave the traffic so as to let them by.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bitexploder on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:41PM (#29155813)
This one time a guy did like 35mph on a road for like 2 miles. I was ready to be annoyed when I saw him turning and accelerating, but that’s the speed I usually do, so they just kept up. Guy hit 40 at a couple points and legit could have gotten a speeding ticket. However, in general, a lot of cyclists in my area are extra aggressive and it creates conflict and the general sentiment is one of annoyance at them hijacking this one relatively busy road. But it’s also motorists not knowing how to pass them properly and share the road. We just need bike lanes on this road. Everyone just wants to get where they are going and the perception is cyclists are out there doing it for fun (most of them are just doing it for exercise on this road, not commuting).
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevincrane on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:54PM (#29155942)
That's fair, but (in my area at least) they're a lot more rare than asshole cars parking in bike lanes or driving too fast. I'd take over-aggressive bikes over thoughtless and negligent drivers any day of the week.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Spooky23 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:20PM (#29156540)
Absolutely agreed!

Overall it’s hard for different physical capabilities to share a resource. If the pandemic taught me anything, it’s that peoples perceptions and ability to act in the common good are wildly inconsistent.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wil421 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:07PM (#29156041)
Runners took over a popular route that has roads with a low speed limit and bike lanes on either side. They run with lien 4-5 people next to each other and will never yield. I’m forced to slow down to a stop if a car is near or swerve into the road. They have plenty of signs telling bikes to ride single file but the runners could care less.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by analog31 on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:38PM (#29155773)
Time for a Critical Mass of casual cyclists. ;-)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:22PM (#29156156)
I don’t know where you live, but in the SF Bay Area the SF Critical Mass and East Bay Bike Party are both pretty casual events… To the point they attract the odd skateboarder or roller skater.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by hodgesrm on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:42PM (#29156293)
I think you meant a Casual Mass of critical cyclists. :)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mike_d on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:45PM (#29156310)
Responsible bike riders should publicly condemn Critical Mass. They are the type of people that make drivers and pedestrians hate people on bikes, and go out of their way to escalate confrontations due to some bike rider victim complex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_involving_Critical_M...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mjmahone17 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:36PM (#29156644)
I’m not sure why responsible riders wouldn’t want to see huge groups of riders asserting their equal right to public space?

Critical Mass helped spur NYC’s bike lane growth. If you’re against direct action that’s fine, but it’s hard for me to see what works better in initiating long term transformation than direct action protests like Critical Mass.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mike_d on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:23PM (#29167669)
No doubt violence and intimidation is an effective way to get what you want, but isn't what is best for a civil society.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sokoloff on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:58PM (#29156398)
I cycle to work on fairly rare occasions. My kids ride on city streets every so often. There is nothing that I’ve seen Critical Mass (or events like it) do that I think is positive.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tomcooks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:31AM (#29158422)
Stand your ground or lose it to idiots, no need to let rude people take over something as universal as cycling
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kashug on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:37AM (#29159139)
I think this is the same with every sport, in my experience, Seen in with swimmers cycelists. But also if you go cross country skiing during the winter here in Norway you meet the same kind of people.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by liveoneggs on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:39AM (#29163139)
The Atlanta Beltline is like this and it is crazy. I had some jerks tell me to "keep those kids on a leash" while they raced past us at 20 mph. I hope they fell down later.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cuddlybacon on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:36PM (#29156252)
> Safer roads means more people will bike, which means biking will stop being seen as an elitist thing.

I don't think it is just safety. Most people understand an e-bike is going to be more dangerous, but they are popular anyways.

The other factor is distance. e-bikes increase the distance that can be covered by a significant amount, which changes a lot of commutes from "too far" to acceptable. The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise.

Even satire news sites have caught onto this: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/09/i-bike-everywhere-brags...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jeffbee on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:14PM (#29156501)
> The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise.

No. The income bracket most likely to bike to work makes less than $10k/year.

https://i1.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mackrevinack on Saturday November 13, 2021 @02:05PM (#29212335)
its like some minimalists you see bragging about how they only have 1 spoon and 1 bowl and have no need for any other cutlery. like yea that's really easy when you are living in a city and within a five minute walk of multiple cafes and restaurants or where you can order takeaway. try living with 1 spoon out in the middle of nowhere and get back to me please
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by yissp on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:04PM (#29156434)
Along similar lines, I think the fact that many cities aren't particularly bike-safe causes (some) cyclists to behave more assertively to the annoyance of motorists. This adversarial relationship hinders potential political cooperation. Admittedly, when I'm driving my car or riding my bike, I often find myself getting mad at people for doing things I know I also do when riding my bike or driving my car.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BackBlast on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:09PM (#29156475)
It's... complicated...

I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it because that's all I had. I did that for a couple of years - even in the cold and ice. My commute distance varied in my biking days, from 6 to 20 miles.

I always obeyed all the traffic laws, though occasionally in the early AM I'd find lights that would not turn green for a bike no matter what I did.

I had people scream at me to get off the road, and otherwise be exceptionally rude. I occasionally had bike lanes and appreciated them, sought them out because it provided better spacing. But the busses on those routes were frequently in the bike lane and were, frankly, slower than I was. But navigating them was always a pain until I got well past them.

On slower roads (20-25 mph) with no bike lane I would take a lane to myself and keep up with traffic but only when I could reasonably keep up.

In the end, safety won out, and I abandoned the practice.

Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior.

Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal.

Bad spacing in the lane, little to no accommodation for drivers when they could provide a bit more space for a comfortable pass. Sometimes they can't help it, and I get it, but when they can and don't... I always tried to be crystal clear about my messaging to the cars around me. I'm taking the lane here for my safety because there are parked cars in the bike lane or otherwise on the shoulder. I'm done now and look, I'm providing lots of space for everyone to safely pass me.

So the rude behavior I encountered was finally somewhat understood.

I really appreciated having good bike lanes. But cyclists do themselves no favors in how they conduct themselves, which will hurt them when pining for better road accommodations.

Even the cost factor is complicated. Everyone factors in the cost per mile of the bike, which is excellent, but the input calories are non-trivial and if you're not running the numbers on just ramen noodles it turns into quite a significant financial cost.

There are definitely health benefits.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by danny_codes on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:28PM (#29156593)
In regards to bike-rider behavior on roads, of course cyclists appear "misbehaved" on roads. The roads are not designed for cyclists, so we have to fight with the design of the transport network to get anywhere

Car-oriented transport infrastructure has been a terrible mistake. Don't blame the cyclists for trying to salvage something from the wreckage.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BackBlast on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:05AM (#29157936)
There is no significant tax pool coming from cyclists to build or maintain said infrastructure.

I don't blame them for trying to salvage/use something from what exists, I've been there. I found the behavior of ignoring established traffic law as if it were optional to be dangerous and selfish.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by desas on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:29AM (#29158794)
> There is no significant tax pool coming from cyclists to build or maintain said infrastructure.

Don't they pay income tax? I think I read that most of the cost of roads in the USA is raised from income tax and sales tax.

> I found the behavior of ignoring established traffic law as if it were optional to be dangerous and selfish.

A lot of car drivers are out there too running lights, breaking speed limits and driving under the influence. People are the problem, not their transport.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by elzbardico on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:03PM (#29157586)
Car-oriented infra structure was responsible for a sizable portion of the economical development for quite a while.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stephen_g on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:24AM (#29158379)
But it seems to produce economically terrible outcomes longer term... Induced demand is a good example - you get to the point where you need to pay huge amounts of money to expand road infrastructure, but as soon as you do it encourages even more use so after widening a highway, there is often an increase in travel times fairly soon after the upgrade after the initial short-term benefit!

Strong Towns also have some good examples of how car-oriented infrastructure can also be economically unsustainable in that it encourages low-density neighbourhoods with a lot of roads, so long term cities can't afford to maintain the roads without cross-subsidising it from new developments. So if the city stops growing, it often can't sustain the infrastructure it has! Whereas somewhat more dense areas (especially where retail and small business tenancies are mixed in with housing) can have much more property tax income per unit area as well as less road infrastructure to maintain which can tip the balance to being economically sustainable in itself.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by danny_codes on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @11:23PM (#29171074)
I would argue the opposite actually. If the US had embraced trains as people movers early on, with local subway systems, I'd imagine we'd have seen even more economic growth than we did. Our cities would be far more prosperous, our people healthier, our energy footprint lower. Better social mobility..

It seems likely that cars actually hindered average GDP growth from '45 to today, rather than helping it.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by erect_hacker on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:08AM (#29158294)
Because we made it that way, cars had nothing to do with it.

Hong Kong is not car oriented and it develop just fine…

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by elzbardico on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:20AM (#29161336)
Hong Kong is inserted on the global economy last time I've checked.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by baq on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:48AM (#29159992)
running red lights is not 'fighting'. it's being an ass.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by xvedejas on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:19PM (#29156534)
I have been explicitly told by my local bike coalition not to stop fully for stop signs. Stopping fully is not particularly safe and local motorists don't even expect it. Given that information, what do you think is the correct behavior for a beginner cyclist like me?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jay_kyburz on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:53PM (#29157172)
I don't know about the US, but a stop sign here in Australia means complete stop. If you fail to fully stop in your driving test it's an instant fail. If you fail to fully stop and there is an accident, you will be at fault.

In Australia, bikes are required to follow the same rules as cars when on the road.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dashundchen on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:09PM (#29157630)
In some US states rolling stops for bikes have been legalized as "Idaho stops".

I have used a bike as my primary transportation for 15 years. The majority of rides are in traffic - there's very little dedicated bike infrastructure (painted sharrows or gutters don't count)

Trust me when I say, in the US, an intersection is the most dangerous place to be. You are a sitting duck if you aren't moving when clear.

A lot of drivers straight up don't pay attention at lights, due to phones or spacing out, and don't give you space when coming up behind you. Mix in right-on-reds, unprotected left turns, and the general drivers failure to negotiate turns - if it's clear I'm going. It's also safer for me to stay at a relatively consistent speed for predictable passing than accelerating in mixed traffic with very different acceleration curves.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stephen_g on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:28AM (#29158398)
Yeah, and it's generally bad for bikes. Stop signs are designed for cars - cyclists are approaching an intersection much slower, so have way more time to look, and can much more easily see around them than a driver (no pillars or vehicle parts around them blocking visibility), so most of the time are able to make a better decision about whether they need to stop or not than cars.

At the same time, it takes a cyclist far longer to start off from being stopped, so every time they stop when they didn't really need to, it puts them in a vulnerable position for much longer time than was necessary. So apparently it turns out a lot safer to let cyclists slow at stop signs but not have to fully stop if it's safe to continue.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by xvedejas on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:55PM (#29157540)
In the US, the letter of the law is that cyclists must make a full stop, yes. But cycling activists often argue that this is a law that needs changing, and would help get more casual riders on bikes. Additionally, most bike riders in cities are on the lower income side; this would reduce how much they're cited for what is fairly accepted behavior.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ouchjars on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:24AM (#29158378)
Stop signs here in Australia, like most of the world, are only placed where the visibility actually makes it necessary to come to a stop. They're far more common over in the US. Pick any random intersection, it probably has a stop sign or four.

If all the give way signs on my commute were replaced with stop signs, I'd sure feel like rolling through them.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BackBlast on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:34PM (#29156631)
Rolling stops are fine, I have no problem with that. That's a good effort, gives you time to really examine the area. Don't blast through at full speed even if it looks clear. That's a bad unsafe habbit.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#29158303)
> Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior.

> Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal.

Some areas have a yield at stop signs law for bikes so the stop signs could be legal, but I think a major driver of this kind of behavior is bike hostile infrastructure. If you've stopped for your 20th red light that prioritises non existent car traffic and that won't turn green today, or you're going past your fifth intersection that requires crossing at signals 3 times, waiting 2 minutes a piece on an empty road with visibility 500m in each direction it starts seeming pointless. Once someone is in the habit of disobeying clearly pointless (or in the case of many stop signs, actively unsafe because there is no visibility at the sign and accelerating up hill from a stop rather than 2mph causes you to spend far more time in the danger zone) signals and signage I can see it being easy to start ignoring others.

Respect works both ways, and when your city and laws clearly disrespect someone you shouldn't be surprised they stop respecting you.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BackBlast on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:22PM (#29194018)
The only cyclists I actively disliked were those who had stripped their reflectors and then rode around dressed in black at night. Scared me half to death when I finally saw them. That move agitated me quite a bit. Thank goodness I've only run into that once.

Seems to me that it's a very bad idea to disrespect in ways that actively make your own life less safe. Especially on something as fragile as a bicycle. Regardless of the disrespect heaped your way.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by DonHopkins on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:39AM (#29158865)
Rude behavior goes both ways, but one way is much deadlier than the other.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43060/coal-rolling-teen-that-h...

>Coal-Rolling Teen That Hit Cyclists Charged With Six Felonies

>The 16-year-old was not arrested after the incident, but has now surrendered to authorities.

>On September 25, a group of cyclists riding near Waller, Texas, were hit by a Ford Super Duty driven by a 16-year old youth. Reports from witnesses indicated the driver had been "rolling coal" on the group immediately prior to striking six cyclists, four of whom were hospitalized due to injuries sustained. Now, news out of Texas is that the teen driver is finally in custody according to the District Attorney of Waller County, over a month after the incident occurred.

>[...] Cyclist Chase Ferrell, who saw the events unfold, told Fox 26 at the time that the crash happened "because [the driver] was accelerating to blow more diesel fuel on these cyclists," adding that the driver "ended up hitting 3 people before his brakes even started." Ferrell noted that the teen remained at the scene after hitting the cyclists, and spoke to police. However, the driver was not arrested in the wake of the crash. "I don't understand, if it was me who had struck someone else, I would be in jail," noted Ferrell.

https://www.thedrive.com/article/9930/colorado-bans-rolling-...

>Colorado Bans Rolling Coal: Hallelujah!

>It doesn't matter that it will be nearly impossible to enforce: this legislation is more than welcome.

>For those not in the know, rolling coal is the name for blasting black smoke out the exhaust of a diesel-engined vehicle. It is done by modifying the air and fuel mixture in forced induction diesel engines to make the engines run rich, the result of which is a cloud of soot blowing out the tailpipes. This is done for the childish sake of annoying people, typically anyone that a coal-roller doesn't like, which includes but is not limited to hybrid drivers, convertible drivers, bicyclists, pedestrians, and anyone who so much as looks like they don't attend the same evangelical megachurch. Why do people do it? Nobody one can say for sure, though it has been suggested that it has its roots in anti-environmentalism.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by JCharante on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:15PM (#29156509)
Aren't people of lower economic means also more overweight? Some exercise doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BackBlast on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:29PM (#29156598)
There is a significant difference between recreational level exercise and work-every-day-because-you-have-no-other-method that's burning potentially >1000 calories per day and measurably increasing your food bill.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by emodendroket on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:18PM (#29156524)
Another obvious point, I think, is that, no matter how much you like driving, crawling on the highway at rush hour is not the least bit enjoyable.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mpalczewski on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:21PM (#29156557)
I didn't mind it, but I had a plush, quiet, comfortable car with an excellent sound system and that cruise control system that follows the car ahead of you. Would listen to music, a podcast, audiobook, or just enjoy some quiet solitude, all climate controlled. Some cars even have massaging seats now.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by baq on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:47AM (#29159980)
gets old quick when you've got a school run to do and not just sit back and relax.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 2muchcoffeeman on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:30PM (#29156605)
In Sydney they have been adding cycle lanes to a lot of roads. I don’t bike because Sydney drivers are terrible. But it’s a real half measure. They need to aggressively push out drivers I think.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jackorange on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:31PM (#29156215)
I think the issue goes further than that into being a societal problem.

Majority of America is overweight, staring down at their phones day and night, and dread physical activity. They also like to flex their position and wealth to others, one of the reasons why pickup trucks and big SUVs sell in great numbers. These people are in no hurry to transition to riding bikes.

The only way biking might work is if some popular celebrities on social media or otherwise started doing it, since many Americans just like to imitate what's popular.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Maarten88 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:49PM (#29156343)
I'd suggest starting with bike paths to schools. Kids don't have the problems you mention, they also don't have an alternative when they want to travel independently.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by forgotmyoldname on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:29PM (#29156601)
A lot of Americans are morbidly afraid of their children being away from adult supervision for more than a minute. I think suggesting 10 year olds ride a bike instead of taking a car or bus might infuriate more than a few people.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:41AM (#29158494)
I remember discussion on reddit where people literally called mom neglectful because she refused to have car.

The issue was that she and 4 years old walked 20minutes to preschool and back. That is it, 40 min total walking time was assumed to be beyond 4 years old capabilities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by baq on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:45AM (#29159963)
maybe it was, for their 4 year olds... which is a sad thought.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by CalRobert on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:34AM (#29159489)
Well, it's scary, perhaps because drivers are the most likely people to kill your kid. But all the same I was very fortunate to have parents that let me roam free and explore from a young age.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by devilbunny on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:18PM (#29183692)
Not irrationally; there are numerous well-publicized incidents, such as child protective services being called for a six-year old playing unsupervised in their own front yard. Or, and I do forget the state (though I think it was Maryland), a state official saying that children under fourteen should never be left alone unsupervised for any length of time. When I was twelve, I babysat my little sister all day and made us hot lunches. Nothing fancy - just your standard packaged noodles or similar - but yeah, I knew how to use a stove safely.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by chrisseaton on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:36PM (#29156247)
Popular celebrities on social media already work out - why do you think Americans aren't already imitating it and why would they imitate bicycling?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jackorange on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:42PM (#29156290)
They do imitate it, they do enough to take pictures of themselves and they buy into the sports clothing brands and entertainment. Few actually do regular and consistent exercise.

I think there would be an increase in biking if the celebs did it, but I say this imagining a new generation of Americana growing up watching a bunch of them doing it, not just one or two starting tomorrow and the nation follows suit.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dTal on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:29PM (#29156603)
E-scooters might be a way in. They're not as fast or as safe (to the rider), but they're practical in way e-bikes aren't due to portability. You can carry one into the office and charge it under your desk. And they lack the cultural baggage of cycling. And it's possible to look suave on one in a way that bicycles make difficult.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:59AM (#29158246)
They're horrifically expensive, but something like an electric brompton as most of those same advantages. You can also usually take them on a bus or train.

I'd disagree on the looking suave bit, it might just be because so many riders are clueless (and this perception being reenforced by selection bias), but someone on an escooter always looks far sillier to me than someone on a dutch style or folding bike, or even someone in lycra.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dTal on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:27AM (#29159447)
It's a little rich to criticise on grounds of cost and then suggest an electric brompton in the same breath - they're nearly 10 times as expensive as the cheapest bikes/e-scooters. You can spend that much on an e-scooter, but you don't need to. E-scooters are about as affordable as bicycles.

Regarding lycra - we can disagree on whether you look suave while riding, but a huge advantage of the e-scooter is that you don't need special clothing - don't even need to tuck your pants leg into your sock. You wouldn't turn up to a date clad in lycra - but you can ride an e-scooter to one.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:26AM (#29159847)
> It's a little rich to criticise on grounds of cost and then suggest an electric brompton in the same breath.

Apologies, I was trying to say that the brompton was the horrifically expensive option.

Upsides is they are a bit better for carrying cargo, can handle slightly rougher terrain, are a little more comfortable at long range and are a little more compact than the more capable escooters.

Both have their place, I was just trying to mention another option that hadn't been included.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by SyzygistSix on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:55AM (#29161089)
Yep. I keep my eyes out for the well-dressed people on Dutch style bikes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mackrevinack on Saturday November 13, 2021 @10:27AM (#29210393)
i didn't know it was possible to look suave on one of those scooters but it's subjective i suppose!
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sbierwagen on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:07PM (#29156044)
>from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies

This has never been true, of course. As you would expect for something that costs a hundredth as much as a car, bicycling to work has always been more common among the poor: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/05/08/low-income-americans-...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wolverine876 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:29PM (#29157013)
That has not been my observation, except for kids and people delivering food.

Consider there may be a dignity issue: If you are a lycra-clad yuppy, you're cycling because you want to. If you're poor, it looks like you can't afford a car.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by aqme28 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:57AM (#29159645)
It's not helpful to respond to data with an anecdote.

Here's another study showing the same https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Relationship-between-inc...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:44AM (#29158512)
Given that breakthrough is significantly more expensive e-bike, owners being too rich was unlikely to be the real issue. If more expensive tool fixes social problem, the people were more likely to be offputted by poor.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:38PM (#29165537)
You can now buy an ebike for 1000$ new, and prices are dropping every year.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:22AM (#29173478)
It was interesting to see some cycling groups in the UK lobbying against the introduction of e-bikes when the EU was legislating for them.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Maarten88 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:07PM (#29156459)
That just adds another argument against safe bike infrastructure in US politics. Poor people are even more undeserving than lycra-clad yuppies ;-\
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:39PM (#29155222)
It cuts both ways. I am lucky enough to live in an area with an EXTENSIVE system of mixed-use trails for bikes and pedestrians. I worry that e-bikes, which are potentially much less pedestrian-friendly, will lead to a pushback against bikes being used on these trials at all.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:52PM (#29155368)
Mixed-use paths are an extremely bad idea and dangerous for everybody. I actively avoid them as a pedestrian and as a cyclist. They should all disappear. If ebikes help to accelerate the inevitable dismissal of these stupid mixed-use lanes, so good!

A bike-friendly infrastructure is based on three separate networks, for pedestrians, cycles and cars. Each of the three networks must be continuous, reasonably complete and able to stand on its own.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dan-robertson on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:08PM (#29155535)
I think I mostly disagree. But this probably depends on the definition of cyclist. If these path users are lycra-clad individuals trying to go as fast as they can and desperately trying not to lose momentum, the experience will be poor. Similarly if you have e-bike users who are basically taking silent mopeds down a trail and swerving between people things won’t go well. But if it’s someone who is not obsessed with speed just trying to go from one place to the next on a wide path it’s probably fine. E-bikes are an advantage here because they remove the incentive to avoid slowing down to preserve momentum.

Ultimately it depends on the cycling culture in a place and a lot of that depends on whom cycling is available to. If it is more accessible you will probably find people acting more sensibly and more like pedestrians.

A mixed use trail can provide refuge from busy roads. This is much more important if roads are awful for cyclists and I this can often be the case in some parts of the world. If roads are good for cyclists then the obnoxious people who would otherwise endanger those on the trail will be happier going faster and straighter along the roads. But they will only get better if cycling is more popular which will only happen if it is more accessible.

I think mixed use paths are not particularly bad and are also necessary on the way to better infrastructure.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:20AM (#29158351)
Mixed use paths as seen in parks are for dogs, pedestrians, children cyclists and beginners. They are not and should not be for commuting except maybe as a last mile connection, because commuters are moving at about 15-20km/h if they want to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. As soon as they get busy there are so many conflict points that accidents are inevitable.

Calling them bike infrastructure is like calling a school zone with zebra crossings and speed bumps a highway.

They are what should be built first though, because you don't get new cyclists without low speed, safe, fully separated bike infrastructure. They should always be paired with a nearby road with a cycle lane and somr plan for separated infrastructure though.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:55AM (#29158570)
I don't think this is true. The mixed use paths are pretty good start. People use them for commute. The special bike lane is more expensive and ideal step, but not necessary.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:52AM (#29159235)
As soon as any significant fraction of people use them they become congested, slow, and dangerous to pedestrians. Slowing to 5km/h repeatedly whilst waiting for an opening for a large portion of your journey makes commuting far less pleasant and severely limits viable range, and being overtaken constantly is unpleasant and dangerous for pedestrians.

The separated bike lane *and* the mixed use path is the end goal, but if the immediate goal is to save the city money and make people healthier rather than create conflict and negative sentiment towards cycling, then you need a separate route for ebikes and more experienced commuters. Sharrows or magic paint suffice for this (at least temporarily) with adequate traffic calming or if the main car flow has an alternate route.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:39AM (#29160334)
The separated lane is just too expensive while there are just a few bikers. If people start using bikes on mixed purpose roads too much, building them after makes sense. But while you are just in the process of promoting the whole cycle thing and there are not that many people, building dedicated tracks does not make much sense. This was the case in our city for quite long time. There was no massive negative sentiment towards cycling. More like, cyclists complained and when there were enough of them infrastructure started to build.

Imo, American negative sentiment and aggression toward bicycles is way more about politics and assumed demographics then anything else. It does not matter how well behaved average cyclist is. It does not matter how intrusive or safe it is. The people who are aggressive will focus on that one minor infraction that happened once to validate their anger.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:44AM (#29160976)
> The separated lane is just too expensive while there are just a few bikers

I think we overall agree, but there are many things that can be done to reduce conflit points.

Firstly I agreed that the mixed lane with a shared car/bicycle alternate route should come first (as this covers both short/slow speed trips and high speed/high confidence trips), but secondly the shared lane has an absurdly small cost. Under 5% of the space and an even smaller fraction of the money spent on roads will give you a world leading bicycle network, and if you build it, it will be used -- cycling on good infrastructure is simply so much cheaper and more convenient than car ownership and cycle lanes have so much more capacity than roads that it becomes a no brainer.

I agree that bootstrapping it to get the political will needed for that pittance is extremely hard, which is why we need to think very carefully about encouraging long distance commuters who must average over 15km/h to make reasonable time and people taking the pram for a walk to mix. Ebikes are a big potential issue because they are both fast and favoured by new riders. It will only take one ebike with the speed limiter removed accidentally injuring a kid and hitting the news to set back bike infrastructure in an entire country by years.

Step 1 is mixed paths connecting local destinations (schools, shops, church, etc) and start reserving your space for the separated bikeway

Step 2 is a fully connected network where all the mixed paths have an alternate route with magic green paint or sharrows for high speed trips and to handle congestion.

Step 3 is build the separated paths.

You can't skip step 2 or avoid thinking about step 3 until it is too late.

Additionally throughout this process you need to fix all the cyclist and pedestrian hostile signals (waiting for a full 5 minhte cycle at a one way street full of stopped cars because the button wasn't pressed is absurd) and provide some alternative to stop signs (carefully designed roundabouts, yield signs, or cyclists-yield laws with public outreach work okay).

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fouc on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:37AM (#29160905)
It's not really expensive, since you're mainly re-drawing lines on the road, removing a lane for cars (or reducing parking area) and adding a lane for e-bikes. The bonus is that it encourages more e-bike use and reduces vehicle pressure.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:43AM (#29162375)
Our city don't have all that many parking places. I do like riding bikes, but I would be really against reducing of parking area.

It is already difficult to have a car near house where you live here.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:00AM (#29162600)
So, you cannot afford enough space to store your stuff (your car, which besides having an impractically huge size is a major ecological burden) and you want that your city allocates premium street space just for you. Then you say cyclists ask too much. This over the top attitude would even be cute if it wasn't sadly so common.

You complain that bike lanes are not used "enough", but a single parked car forces a whole lane to have a throughput of 0 commuters per hour. A bike lane that gets a single cyclist per hour is infinitely more efficient!

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#29155490)
That's a nice ideal but it's just not realistic in most existing built up areas. There's literally not enough space for three separate networks without knocking down existing buildings and buying a lot of land through eminent domain. Let's focus on what can actually be achieved with realistic levels of funding.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:17PM (#29156926)
"That's a nice ideal but it's just not realistic in most existing built up areas. There's literally not enough space"

There was not enough space for cars, we tore down entire neighbourhoods and blasted through bedrock to create highways.

There is not enough money to fund a moon program or fix climate change, but when time came to bail out the banks, if you stacked that money as 1-dollar bills it would reach the moon.

There is not enough money to Fusion research, but our fossil fuel and airline subsidies in one year are greater that all-time fusion research budget.

Priorities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:57AM (#29158585)
> There was not enough space for cars, we tore down entire neighbourhoods and blasted through bedrock to create highways.

The prioritization back then was that "those people" don't matter. That is how those were build.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Maarten88 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:20PM (#29156541)
A bike lane can carry more people than a car lane.

Especially in the US there is plenty of space you can take away from cars, both lanes and parking.

The Netherlands did not knock down and rebuild Amsterdam to build bike paths. They took space back from cars.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rahen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:10PM (#29164327)
This also scales well with size, so you will see that with NYC, Paris, Tokyo and most large "world cities".
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Gareth321 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:28AM (#29159450)
I encourage you to watch [this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o) No one believed they had enough space in the Netherlands either. Turns out they did, with some creative engineering, time, money, and sheer force of will. It's not easy. It takes a long time. But with a steady hand and the ability to cut through lobby interests, it can be done. Note that they didn't need to knock down many buildings in the NL. They did things like reducing 3-4 lanes to 2; making roads and footpaths narrower; reclaiming roads and re-routing vehicle traffic elsewhere; and of course better utilising a lot of wasted curbside land. Plus lots of redrawing of city plans to ensure future building and renovations incorporated the vision.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:55PM (#29155949)
That’s only true if you presume that demand for roads remain constant. Ideally you’d hope that cycle infrastructure would offset some road use, which would allow the state to reclaim some lanes for cyclists. Given how space inefficient cars are, it wouldn’t require a significant drop in road usage for cyclists to be given all the space they need independent from pedestrians.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sokoloff on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:03PM (#29156429)
Most roads around here that are not controlled access are one lane in each direction. Those that aren’t have often had a lane dedicated to buses (and emergency vehicles). There are rarely lanes free to be taken unless cycling becomes so prevalent to displace cars to zero on some routes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:42PM (#29157462)
Depends on your city I guess. You didn’t specify where you live, but I’d broadly categorize the cities I’ve lived into two categories.

The first is car centric, with lots of roads and deep set backs. These cities are amenable to bike and public transit transformation in terms of space, but usually have political resistance to change. These cities will be the easiest to add extra bike infrastructure to, once a political mass is reached. My current city is like this, and the current bike path master plan is trying to add enough paths for 96% of the city to be near bike infrastructure (currently it’s 10%).

The second category are really dense, and do not have the space for any extra lanes. But these cities dedicate a huge amount of space for parallel parking. Theoretically the city could remove parking for bikes, but practically this means purposefully pricing people out of car ownership, which is obviously unpopular. These cities should focus on public transit, which is by and far the most space efficient way to move people. For a lot of these cities this is less about installing new lines, which is expensive, but about making the existing system feel cleaner and more dignified. It will always be hard to make improvements when even the crappiest sedan is considered a step up from taking the subway to work.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adgjlsfhk1 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:07PM (#29156863)
And that's a really good idea
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:57AM (#29158230)
Pretty much all roads where I live have two sidewalks, two rows of parked cars and at least one lane for car traffic, usually two. Take away half the free parking and you have space for cyclists.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by danny_codes on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:33PM (#29156628)
I don't think this is true. I lived in SF for a while (assumedly this meets your definition of built up), and there's plenty of space.

The key is that cars don't belong in most places anyway. A residential street can easily be design as a 10mph one way cobblestone road with calming measures, freeing up the "other direction" side of the street for a 2-way bike lane and expanded sidewalks. Larger roads can be redesigned similarly for bike/transit with cars filling in particular niches like delivery of bulk items, etc.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:30AM (#29158416)
A tram or two way brt lane, a dedicated bike path, a footpath, and 2 lanes of car traffic can carry 5-20x as many people as a 6 lane stroad and takes up less space.

It also costs less to maintain, kills fewer people, massively reduces healthcare costs improves the local economy and is far nicer to live next to.

There is plenty of money, most places are just directing it to yet another road widening project that will make things worse.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ghaff on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:34PM (#29156632)
Not sure how common this is in other places but in Massachusetts a fair number of rail trails have sprung up over the past few decades--often over considerable opposition in some town or another. Some, like the Minuteman, were explicitly "bikeways" (although pedestrians and, for a time at least, rollerblades are also common). Others have always been pitched as mixed use.

In any case, it's pretty much a non-starter to prohibit at least conventional bikes or pedestrians even though, on the more crowded and narrower paths, I'll avoid them during busy times as a walker.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by lmm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:32AM (#29158087)
You're right, most city centres need to ban cars to make room for more efficient alternatives.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fouc on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:40AM (#29160932)
You're forgetting that car lanes & parking spaces on sides of roads can be re-drawn to fit e-bikes and reduce overall car use (which is the goal anyways).
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:40PM (#29165561)
I live in Montreal. Our most bike friendly borough allocates around one twentieth the space for bikes as for cars.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wittycardio on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:20PM (#29157328)
Building bike lanes is extremely cheap, not sure why funding is an issue
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stevejb on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:02PM (#29155478)
Not sure why you're downvoted on this. I used to live near a very popular mixed-use bike trail, and walking with my kids there was really unpleasant. There were some cyclists who would go really fast and not slow down at all, and I had little kids who might see a butterfly and move unpredictably. It was bad for everyone.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:45PM (#29156715)
I agree with this. I definitely think there are some kinds of pedestrian traffic that probably shouldn't use a high traffic mixed trail. Situational awareness and understanding how to stay on your 'side' of the trial is pretty important.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jnwatson on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:42PM (#29156294)
We’re starting to separate popular mixed-use paths in Northern VA:

https://www.insidenova.com/news/arlington/w-od-trail-effort-...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:39PM (#29156669)
In a perfect world, sure. But it's quite a bit better than treating bikes as human powered cars. It's also pretty easy to do safely: walk and ride on the right, pass on the left, and only when there's no oncoming traffic. People here follow that convention and it mitigates almost all of the issues.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Gareth321 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:22AM (#29159408)
I agree, but I prefer mixed use paths to mixed use roads. In terms of speed and safety, bikes are much closer to pedestrians than cars. It is insanity to have bikes sharing the road.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bink on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:47PM (#29155303)
We're in a weird situation now where I think most people riding e-bikes are doing so illegally on trails and paths. It's not being enforced yet where I live and I fear the push-back when someone inevitably gets hurt.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by KennyBlanken on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:23PM (#29155664)
> I fear the push-back when someone inevitably gets hurt.

Which is fascinating and really tells you something about ingroups and outgroups because cyclists are hurt and killed every day by drivers and strangely nobody seems to be that fussed about it.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jyounker on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:11PM (#29156886)
The only time I ever biked to Cleveland, Texas (about 60 miles North of Houston) I spent much of the trip dodging drivers who thought it was entertaining to throw things at me. Thinks like bricks.

The hatred heaped on cyclists escalates towards violence, and next to nobody on the escalating side (motorists) really acknowledges that it happens.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by AutumnCurtain on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:38PM (#29155781)
The Texas "rolling coal" case shows you can attempt to murder a group of cyclists and face no legal repercussions if you are in the right political climate.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by scintill76 on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:46PM (#29155859)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:44PM (#29156306)
There was also a similar case in Austin where a cyclist shot a driver who tried something similar; the cyclist was released without charged and the driver was charged with attempted homicide or similar. Personally I’m impressed the cyclist managed to hit the driver while biking, which seems like a very hard thing to do.

That being said, these are edge cases. The sad reality is that a driver must display extreme levels of negligence or malice before the state will step in to punish them. In NYC only 1 percent of drivers who injured a pedestrian or cyclist even got a ticket. Assuming the driver is sober and doesn’t flee the scene, neither cops nor DA’s really care about prosecuting negligent drivers who injure or kill anyone.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by AutumnCurtain on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:13AM (#29162764)
Yes, thankfully the DA stepped in after the local PD tried to squash it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by DonHopkins on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:46AM (#29158894)
To the driver's credit, he was only trying to mine cryptocurrency, not attempting to murder the bicyclists. /s
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Angostura on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:59PM (#29155982)
> nobody seems to be that fussed about it.

Ummm- yes, yes they are.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by namdnay on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:51AM (#29159602)
> are doing so illegally on trails and paths

don't you have restricted ebikes in the US? In most of Europe they're either sold restricted to 25kmh, in which case they're legally bikes, or unrestricted, in which case they're legally mopeds

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wil421 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:09PM (#29156056)
My city had issues after the escooter craze started. They outlawed them on side walks and started giving a lot of tickets to people who kept doing it. Not sure if it worked or the craze died down.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ghaff on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:40PM (#29156684)
I assume more the latter.

Even in the places I'm familiar with which still allow escooter rentals, my observation is you don't really see very many of them--either being ridden or littering the sidewalks. It does seem to be one of those things that, while you still see them, appear to have mostly been a fad. At least in the cities I'm familiar with.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cameldrv on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:27PM (#29155694)
This is a real problem. IMO, the issue really is that ebikes are too good/too flexible. They are fast enough to get you to work quickly and more comfortably mix with city traffic. The flipside is that they're too fast to mix with pedestrian traffic. If there were some way of limiting speed on mixed use paths, e-bikes would be perfect.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by UnFleshedOne on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:32PM (#29155725)
Speed limits is how it is usually done -- cars can all go much faster than most roads allow for and we are mostly fine.

Set speed limits and mercilessly fine serious violations, and the problem goes away as far as it will ever be.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Steltek on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:03PM (#29156015)
Speed limits are effective? Serious enforcement? Surely you must be kidding. Speed limits are a joke everywhere, even school zones during drop off times.

Any reasonable speed limit for a shared use bike path (IMO, <15mph) will be routinely ignored by both e-bikes and roadies.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dTal on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:37PM (#29156651)
E-scooters in Europe are generally soft-limited to 25kph (15.5 mph). This is seems like quite a good practical measure, although it's "problematic" from a software freedom perspective. It's quite hazardous for the rider to go much faster than that anyway, scooters are much less stable than bikes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by atleta on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:56PM (#29164959)
Actually there should be speed limits for shared paths even without ebikes. Here (Hungary, EU), I think it's 20kph (12.5mph). Even that is too fast to hit someone, but of course, the point is that you'll have more time to slow down and react.

I'd say they are somewhat effective. I don't ride much on shared paths, but when I do, I usually see people not going full speed. After all, unlike with a car, it's also dangerous for the biker. The only concern might be that you may experience speed differently on an ebike/pedelec since you have to put in less effort. I've never tried those so I have no idea.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wayoutthere on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:30PM (#29156608)
Speed limits are not enforced in my corner of the country and the limits are way too low; it’s regular to do 85 in a 45. I’m additionally dubious of the ability of police to actually catch a speeding cyclist; when I was a college kid I easily outran the campus bike cops simply by being in good shape.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 8note on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#29156264)
If you design the road to feel unsafe at high speed, travellers will automatically slow down
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by spodek on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:02PM (#29156419)
> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

Here in New York City, people delivering food, packages, etc are one of the major biking contingents, I guess invisible to the Hacker News community.

Sadly, here in New York City, kids can't ride bikes around for fun except once or twice a year when they close Park Avenue or if you get an open street. I don't see why kids riding casually shouldn't be a major interest of the population. If the streets aren't safe for them, maybe change the streets and disallow cars instead of depriving kids of that space.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by clairity on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:06PM (#29154281)
i'd personally like to see two policy changes (especially in a city like LA that's perfect year-round for biking):

1. convert curbside parking into dedicated and protected bike lanes (not everywhere, but extensively)

2. require bike parking (preferably covered and right next to entrances/foot traffic) and liability requirements anywhere that has a (car) parking lot

this would put biking on par with cars and would encourage businesses to reorganize around mixed traffic, rather than car only.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dan-robertson on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:11PM (#29155560)
Isn’t LA extremely sparse to the extent that cycling is a lot of effort because of long distances? I suppose e-bikes help but don’t you still lose a lot of the advantages—less time at the start and end of journeys and less distance from parking areas—to the increased travel time from large distances?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:30PM (#29156208)
LA is surprisingly dense for an American city. I’m too lazy to look up LA numbers, but in the US as whole most car trips are under 5 miles. This is perfect e-bike distances, and after accounting for finding parking, walking across a massive surface lot or riding elevators down a parking deck, the e-bike might be just the same amount of time.

Source: https://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/2009/vt_TRPMILES.html

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by clairity on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#29156263)
not really, though socal on the whole is a sprawl. greater LA is decentralized into a bunch of blended edge cities[0], but the city itself is basically split into the LA basin and the san fernando valley. within these sub-regions, it's eminently bikable, with the two areas linked by subway and rail for bikers. central LA, encompassing downtown through mid-wilshire and toward santa monica/venice, is relatively dense (20-40k/sq mi), and roughly 15 miles from downtown to the beach (also connected by light rail). if you live in this central LA area (or central san fernando), most places you need to go are less than an hour's e-bike ride away, and most likely less than 1/2 hour away.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_cities

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by filoleg on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:37PM (#29156658)
Not from LA, but was able to test it in real life during one of my visit with friends there (a couple of years ago).

We got to Santa Monica beach in the afternoon, spent some time there, and we had a reservation for dinner in koreatown (close to downtown), roughly 15 miles away. Closer to 5:30pm it was time to leave, so we split into two groups: 3 people decided to take Uber, 4 people (including me) decided to take those Lime/Bird escooters.

The results were rather surprising. The escooter group got to the restaurant about 15 minutes later than the Uber group, but only because we were navigating to the wrong place and overshot the restaurant by almost 2 miles. Without counting that, our overall trip was around 1.5 hours.

Here is the kicker: batteries on those scooters were rather not the best. With 4 people riding together, every 20 minutes or so, someone's battery would die (because we didn't all start with 100% at the same time, it doesn't mean that the battery life on those was just 20 minutes, it was just the offset that led to this). And when the battery would die, we wouldn't abandon the person, so we would start searching around for another scooter being available somewhere nearby.

With this in mind, if it was just 1 person riding by themselves, it would definitely beat an Uber ride on that day. And even with 4 people with batteries dying every 20 minutes on someone's scooter, we pretty much beat the people who took Uber by a small margin (which would have been much larger if it was just one person on one escooter).

To underline, I was surprised by two things on that day: how awfully close to the stereotype LA traffic actually was and how viable escooters were in that environment. Prior to seeing it with my eyes, I was also thinking that LA was a bit too sprawled out for it to work. Glad to have been proven wrong.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mike_d on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:51PM (#29156348)
3. Dedicated bike police enforcing bike laws.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by clairity on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:05PM (#29157239)
that would be a waste of resources. in my area, it's the cars that need more enforcement. every single day i see multiple cars brazenly running stop signs and sometimes even stop lights. they don't even slow down. that's potentially deadly; not so with bikes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by woodruffw on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:02PM (#29155474)
> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

I'm a daily cyclist (18-20 miles round trip for work) and I don't know which one annoys me more: the lycra yuppie who wants to race me, or the e-bike Patagonia vest financebro yuppie who salmons[1] me while screaming through his AirPods :-)

[1]: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/05/15/3124556...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:50PM (#29154070)
> they change the politics around cycling

While I agree with e-bikes being a generally good thing, I also think they involve a lot of secondary consequences and we still need to figure out the best solutions. For example, having more e-bikes on the already overcrowded bike path near where I live is becoming a disaster. There had already been enough problems with mismatched speeds, impatience on all sides, etc. There had even been fatalities. Adding e-bikes makes all of that even worse. While I have little love for the "rich lycra-clad yuppies" (there really are plenty of them) who are mostly just horrified by the idea of their hobby becoming more inclusive, I kind of agree with them that the path can't safely support yet another (faster, heavier) type of conveyance. I wouldn't want horses on the path for the same reason.

There's a complementary issue with e-bikes on roads. There's still going to be a speed mismatch, with e-bikes in the middle this time instead of the high end. Bike lanes are going to become more dangerous, traffic-light timings will have to change, etc. Where are the e-bikes going to be parked or stored while not in use? On my now-ended visits to Seattle I saw these problems already manifesting, and they're likely to become even worse as e-bikes continue to become more popular.

In the long term, maybe the "changed politics" will lead to improved infrastructure that supports all classes of users including e-bikes. In the short term, it's likely to be a free-for-all like I used to see in Bangalore with all the tuk-tuks and scooters mixed in with cars and trucks and buses. Not looking forward to it.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notatoad on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:53PM (#29154110)
this is exactly the politics around cycling that need to change. cyclists have been asking for better infrastructure for decades, and been told to go play in traffic because we're a weird niche interest group who can be ignored.

we need better infrastructure for non-car transportation. the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:13PM (#29154363)
> the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to.

Did you miss the part where the cyclists are the ones inflicting that hell on others sometimes? Cyclists haven't been the only ones demanding better non-automotive infrastructure. I've supported the local path with both my dollars and the sweat of my brow, only to have freeloading cyclists tell me that they have priority (exactly opposite to how the laws are written) and I should get out of their way. One political change that needs to happen is that cyclists need to stop looking down their noses at other non-automotive users. When cyclists stop treating pedestrians exactly the same way they complain about being treated by cars, maybe greater cooperation will be possible. Nobody likes the smell of hypocrisy.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notatoad on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:40PM (#29155225)
again, this is exactly the sort of politics that hopefully will change as more people ride bikes.

yes, there's some bad cyclists. but because there's few enough cyclists, people who aren't cyclists like to group us all together. when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. but when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists, as if we're all the same, because we're just a group of weirdos that you don't feel a part of.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:55PM (#29155405)
> when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists

No, I don't, and even if that was meant as a generic "you" it seems a bit like attempted mind-reading. How about not doing that? FWIW, the people I've worked with on maintaining my local path are mostly cyclists. No friction there. When people call out "on your left" (interestingly that's most of the women and damn few of the men) I always say "thank you" in return. I'm well aware that most cyclists are good people and I treat them as such, but there are enough - and an even higher percentage among cycling activists - that it's a problem.

I guess I should have been more explicit about referring to that subset earlier, but other cyclists should be aware that those are the ones people remember (it's basic math + psychology) and exert peer pressure accordingly instead of getting aggressive themselves every time the issue comes up.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rp1 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:14PM (#29156903)
I think the difference is that people dislike cyclists because they like the drive, and cyclists make driving extremely dangerous. I can basically autopilot down any road with exclusive auto and pedestrian traffic, but introduce a cyclist and I have to pay extreme attention to avoid causing a tragedy. I totally support cyclists right to cycle, but I’m just providing some commentary on why cyclists as a whole are painted in a bad light. It’s not really about the behavior of cyclists.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rootusrootus on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:09PM (#29156047)
> when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do.

Ya know, I don't have to look any farther than this discussion to see people doing exactly that, painting all drivers as bad.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrep on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:16PM (#29156106)
In my experience, the percentage of cyclists that disregard the rules of the road are an order of magnitude higher than car drivers.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wanderingstan on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#29156259)
When people mention this, I always ask what percentage of cars are following the speed limit—a rule of the road all the more important when piloting a vehicle which can easily kill. Cyclists disregarding the rules of the road are lower percentage, and primarily endanger themselves.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrep on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:47PM (#29156326)
Fare: I agree that cars speed more than cyclists blowing stop sings/red lights but the latter is far more dangerous in my opinion and I see them do it constantly.

I had to slam on the breaks 3 weeks ago when making a left because of a biker completely running a red light in front of me.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Symbiote on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:44PM (#29166483)
Count the proportion who run the light given the opportunity. All cyclists have the opportunity, but only the front car - if it stops, it blocks others.

I find the number running lights to be similar.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:02AM (#29158963)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:26PM (#29155681)
I'm a bit of a "rich lycra-clad yuppy" myself, and occasionally ride with other such cyclists. I've literally never heard anyone express horror at the idea of their hobby becoming more inclusive.

Mostly e-bike riders are just ignored. Like they don't affect us in any way and we barely even notice that they exist.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:04AM (#29158973)
The worst you get from "real" cyclists is the occasional complaint that you are cheating.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by gnarcoregrizz on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:04PM (#29154256)
Maybe the problem is that bike paths are too small? Cars are granted 12 feet per-lane, often with multiple lanes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:15PM (#29154378)
That is very much part of the problem. The solution is going to run into both financial and legal obstacles, so it's imperative that the various stakeholders cooperate instead of one group consistently trying to lord it over the others.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by paiute on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:32PM (#29153858)
I love mine, I think it opens up some opportunities to work on relations with cars and pedestrians. I feel less in the way when I can maintain a better speed up hill. and on trails it's not a burden to slow down when passing pedestrians on foot. Nothing is worse than a bike whizzing by when you don't expect it. I just wish they'd remove those stupid speed limiters.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by multjoy on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:36PM (#29153889)
If you remove the speed limiter you are riding an electric motorcycle, which needs to be somewhere other than with pedestrians and cyclists.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by zip1234 on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:45PM (#29154002)
Except in many places pedestrians and cyclists have no choice but to share the road with cars and I don't see too many people clamoring for speed limiters on those...
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by multjoy on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:50PM (#29154076)
If you remove the limiter and pedal assist requirement, you have an electric motorcycle. If you want one of those, then you'll need to be licensed to ride one.

Do you want an e-bike you can ride like a bicycle, or do you want an e-bike you can ride like a motorcycle?

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by paiute on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:06PM (#29154279)
only because we have brain dead laws on e bikes. why not 24.5 mph? I see actual electric motorcycles on our bike paths all the time, I have never seen them cause a real problem. People on normal bikes cause all the problems because they have so much invested in their current speed.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Arainach on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:59PM (#29155441)
Because kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity, and 25mph is 56% more energy which is a huge problem in a collision with a pedestrian or a crash.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/05/31/3-graphs-that-explain...

It's also a big issue with response time and with the rate pedestrians expect bicycles to be travelling. You shouldn't bike on the sidewalk because no one is looking for vehicles going more than a few miles per hour (walking). You shouldn't bike more than 15mph on trails/lanes shared with pedestrians for similar reasons. 20mph is a tolerable compromise, 25mph is flat out dangerous.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pmontra on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:44AM (#29159954)
This matches my experience on shared pedestrian / bicycles low density roads in countryside. 30 km/h (a little less than 20 mph) is the limit between okish and dangerous. Actually pedestrians start to worry a little before that speed but of course half of them don't see the bicycle approaching. The cyclist see them a long time before overtaking and assesses whether they are safe to pass or require a slow down.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by paiute on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:57PM (#29180659)
This is a good example of how we get bad laws... Should overweight cyclists be forced to have a lower speed? I can still get my ebike to 25 mph down hill, I would never dream of passing a pedestrian at that speed. I picked 24.5 for a reason and not 25 BTW.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by White_Wolf on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:00PM (#29155454)
tbh I wouldn't mind the peed limit being higher but introduce some sort of driving lic and exam for it with periodic re-testing. Also re-testing should be mandatory for car drivers too. Both theory, practical, reflex testing.

I ride a bicycle, bike and drive a car and the ammount of crazies on all sides leaves me speachless sometimes. I see cyclist cutting off cars and shooting into a roundabout just because cars will avoid them. I actually had a crash becasue of a retard like this and I chased him until I caught him. Took him to court and won.

On the other side of the coin - I see cars taking turns without checking their mirrors, overtaking while in a queue without making sure no cyclists are passing by. Smashed a bike to bits because of 1 twat. His insurance paid for the bike and treatment.

P.S. I'm not a perfect driver but people these days lack consideration and defensive driving(even the notion of it is foreign now)

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:09PM (#29155542)
I don't understand what you're asking for. There are already electric motorcycles which don't have artificial speed limiters. Those require a motorcycle license and can be driven on any road.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:45PM (#29165634)
They also generally have 7 times the vattey capacity and at least 15 times the power output. The speed limiter is not the main difference.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sgarman on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:54PM (#29155393)
I don't think this is a fair take. People on normal bikes do cause problems because of the reason you listed but it's surely not ALL of the problems.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrep on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:04PM (#29156017)
So true. Normal bikers break the rules of the road by far the most in my experience because god forbid they have to stop and start again.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:42PM (#29155253)
More specifically, you have and electric motorcycle with no traction, no safety features and an untrained rider.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:32PM (#29156225)
Riding a motorcycle is easier than a bike. In a motorcycle there’s three evasive actions: brake, accelerate or swerve. On a bicycle there’s only two, and that lack of speed is exactly what causes some of the riskiest behaviors from motorists (e.g. close passing.)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:35PM (#29156643)
I think it's charitable to say there are even two fully useful evasive actions on a bike. An absolutely tiny contact patch and low weight mean that there's simply not enough traction for any sort of aggressive change in direction or speed without ending up off the bike.

What's pernicious about this is, that under normal circumstances most people won't have ridden a bike past these limits, maybe ever, so the first time you realize your bike can go from well behaved to on the pavement instantly is the worst time for it to happen.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by speedgoose on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:45AM (#29158167)
It depends on the bike though. I mountain bike with large soft tires, good suspensions, and low air pressure have quite a lot of grip compared to a road bike with tiny super hard tires. You can do a lot of crazy things. But I agree that the average commuter bike has low limits.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:22PM (#29156964)
"the first time you realize your bike can go from well behaved to on the pavement instantly is the worst time for it to happen."

I am always afraid of falling of the bike while there is a bus driving behind me. Could happed with a pothole, random garbage/bottle of the road, etv

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jdavis703 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:30PM (#29157022)
If you’re an urban cyclist find a safe place like a parking lot to practice sudden braking, tight turns, etc. And if there’s a suitable spot practice riding on gravel too… Should roughly simulate loosing grip on rough roads.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bitexploder on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:48PM (#29155879)
It is trivial to get a motorcycle license in America. An order of magnitude more training should be required for cars and motorcycles before I would consider people trained.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:48PM (#29156740)
It depends heavily on the state you live in I believe. It's also somewhat irrelevant to my point: if you're going to be on the road with a vehicle that has similar capabilities to a motorbike, you should at least know what the other drivers have been taught, if nothing else.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rcMgD2BwE72F on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:41PM (#29153946)
>with pedestrians

Do some cities actually let cyclists bike on sidewalks? I bike 24/7 but this seems crazy. Bicycles needs their own, separate, protected paths, at the road level. Period.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by silicon2401 on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:01PM (#29154224)
I live in a city that explicitly allows cyclists to bike on sidewalks, and I'd never bike otherwise. One time I tried road-riding the mere 15m home from the gym and had 3 close calls from drivers. We also have separate, protected paths at the road level. Anybody who wants me to ride on the road can send me a blank check to cover medical expenses in the case of an accident if they are so invested in my riding according to their preferences.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pmontra on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:54AM (#29160043)
Luckily it's illegal to ride a bicycle on sidewalks in my country and yet many people do it at half the speed and half the comfort of what they would have on the road (sidewalks are not maintained to be smooth and are cluttered by all sort of things and people.) I'm a cyclist and I really hate them. If they are afraid to ride on the road, it sucks for them but it's only one of the things people would like to do and cannot do. Walk, catch a bus, drive a car.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ceras on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:11PM (#29155561)
Besides Europe, I remember seeing several sidewalks in Japan that allowed it. And many (most?) streets in Japan are fully mixed across modes, and have no sidewalk, so you'll see bikers+pedestrians(+cars) combined there too.

There's something very nice about these types of mixed streets, but they're pretty much unheard in the US. They work very well on small residential streets, where cars would otherwise get 80% of the street width reserved to their use, even where car traffic is low.

Also, US sidewalks tend to be extremely narrow, which makes it worse to share modes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ryan_lane on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:12PM (#29157288)
It's technically illegal to ride your bike on the sidewalk in at least Tokyo. The lack of protected bike lanes, however, means that very few people obey that law.

There's a lot of mixed-use streets here without sidewalks, and if cars weren't allowed on them, they'd be great. I'm always worried about being hit by a car on them.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by greggman3 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:55AM (#29159628)
Tons of sidewalks in Tokyo are marked for mixed use. You'll see these round blue signs showing both a bicycle and pedestrian

https://i.imgur.com/OzShuC8.jpg

I wouldn't generally call Tokyo a bike friendly city but they do have bike parking lots and more and more bike lanes are being added.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ghaff on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:29PM (#29155705)
In Japan, you definitely see bikes going fairly quickly on sidewalks where there is a fair bit of pedestrian traffic. I'm especially careful in Japan to not make any possibly unpredictable side to side moves when walking because that's a good way to get clipped.

I've even seen bikes trying to make their way through a pedestrian crush that's basically the people density of Times Square in NYC.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fknorangesite on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:49PM (#29154053)
> Do some cities actually let cyclists bike on sidewalks?

Not sidewalks per se, but combined, mixed-used paths are very common. Whether this is a good idea or not is another issue.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by neutronicus on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:26PM (#29156180)
Sidewalks let you fill in gaps in the protected path network by riding slowly.

In my city at least you can't really go fast on the sidewalks even if they're empty (lots of uneven brick, chunky curbs, trees, buildings have stoops, etc) so it's not a big issue. If someone has to go a couple blocks on the sidewalk they'll generally get back on the path / road as soon as able

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bink on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:50PM (#29155340)
In DC it's specifically allowed except for a prohibited section near the Mall downtown. And in that section the law is widely ignored by both cyclists and police either way.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pcwalton on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:52PM (#29154088)
Yes. Several cities in the Bay Area have shared sidewalks; e.g. Embarcadero in San Francisco, and Foster City has a ton of them. I don't know of any cities that allow all sidewalks to be used by bikes, but I'm sure some exist.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fragmede on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:06PM (#29156028)
Embarcadero's a special case since it's so wide, and barely has car traffic crossing it. (It borders the ocean on one side.) San Francisco has many protected bike lanes and if your route is on those exclusively, it's very nice.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pjmlp on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:53PM (#29155383)
Definitely, quite common on European cities.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrep on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:07PM (#29156035)
Does it matter if it is not enforced?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jacquesm on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:38PM (#29153917)
That depends on the conditions. If you adapt to the conditions then that would be fine, if you don't then even at normal e-bike speeds you are a danger. I never got why we have 200 Mph cars but a moped that can go 30 over the legal limit gets confiscated.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by multjoy on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:48PM (#29154036)
Because a moped that can go 30 over the legal limit is no longer a moped, it is a motorcycle and needs to be taxed, insured and tested as such.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jacquesm on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:51PM (#29154081)
My e-bike is taxed, insured and tested to the same standards as a light e-moto (in Germany, a Riese & Mueller 'charger'). The only difference with the bicycle version is the speed limiter setting.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by multjoy on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:57PM (#29154162)
That and it's not a motorcycle so you're not going to get stuck on for riding it on a bike path, surely?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jacquesm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:16AM (#29158720)
No, I'm not allowed to ride it on a bike path. I am allowed to ride it on a combined bike/moped path.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:15PM (#29155593)
Only a tiny handful of expensive sports cars can actually reach 200 mph. While there a few limited exceptions, in most jurisdictions anyone caught driving at 200 mph will be arrested and the car impounded.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:26PM (#29156997)
In this context 200 or 150 mph are the same: illegal, and instant death if anything goes wrong.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jacquesm on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:37PM (#29153904)
Those speed limiters are indeed stupid, especially because on a 'regular' bike you can fairly easily outrun a normal e-bike (though probably not for as long unless you are in very good shape). Normal ones should be limited at 35 or so and speed-pedelecs at 50 Kph so you don't end up holding up other traffic. Where I live a speed-pedelec has to be in traffic but it isn't allowed to go as fast as that traffic, which creates all kinds of dangers.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:50PM (#29155344)
I'm of the mind that it's up to every individual to decide how much risk they want to take, but I think an e-bike that can do 55 mph is significantly more dangerous than a motorcycle. Tiny amount of traction, no ability to maneuver or speed up further to get yourself out of a dangerous position. Crude/no suspension. No traction control, no turn signals, silent. Cars on the road see a pedal bike and expect you to behave like one. Rider unlikely to be wearing the correct safety gear. If you lay down a bike at 55 and you aren't wearing leathers you can literally bleed out right there on the pavement. The list goes on and on.

Again, not saying it should not be allowed, but man, at that point please just take care of yourself and get a little honda motorbike and a full face helmet/leathers.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kibwen on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:40PM (#29156278)
People appear to be mixing units here, I believe the parent commenter was using kph, not mph.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by namdnay on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:58AM (#29159651)
55mph on an ebike would be insane :) even 55kph is really really fast if you're not on perfect asphalt - the slightest pebble hitting the front wheel and it's goodbye
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kibwen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:26AM (#29161399)
To clarify, it's insane from a practical standpoint to allow e-bikes to go that fast, but from a technological standpoint many e-bikes are more than capable of going that fast, and much faster. I have seen e-bikes that advertise their top speed as 80 mph.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:47PM (#29165668)
If you have suspension and the proper tires (which are a legal requirement in many places) you can take pretty big pebbles in the front wheel.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stefan_ on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:02PM (#29154238)
It's intentional to limit these to $regular_speed - 5km/h, same as with mopeds. I assume it's so you are converted to a real vehicle (car) by virtue of being assaulted on the roads by those driving them?

I certainly don't agree with 35km/h on bike paths. The current 25km/h is plenty and given their popularity with older ages, already producing outsized numbers of injuries and deaths.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by namdnay on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:56AM (#29159638)
What are the rules where you live? In France it's either a bike if the assist is limited to 25kmh (you could go above that on a nice flat road, but the gearing usually isn't designed for it) , or a "<50cc motorcycle" in which case it can go up to 50kmh (like all other <50cc vehicles). In the latter case, no bike lanes, you need a rear-view mirror and helmet, and for some bureaucratic reason the brakes have to be inversed
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pmontra on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:59AM (#29160080)
Same in Italy.

It means that a ciclyst on an ebike can outperform a group of friends with normal bikes on an slope but can't stay with them on the way back home and they'll have to wait. I experienced that and it's not nice. The two types of bikes mix well only in low intensity sightseeing rides.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by namdnay on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:06AM (#29160548)
well, only if the friends are keen cyclists with road bikes.

no commuter in shirt and trousers with saddlebags for the laptop etc is going to be running at more than 25kmh

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pmontra on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:49PM (#29164846)
Of course. We were slowly pedaling uphill with road bikes and our friend was speeding in front of us. But we had to wait on the way back home because we could do easily 30 km/h on the last 20 km (completely flat) and his engine cut off at 25.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bch on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:10PM (#29154321)
> people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies

I don’t know who “those people” are, or what regional politics are at play, but that doesn’t pass my “smell test”. How about deploying “think about the children” here for something that increases exercise and happiness, mobility, fosters growth… it’s not even contentious with respect to (e.g.) civil liberties.

I suspect the answer is people just don’t care. Especially once they’re behind the wheel of an automobile, electric or otherwise.

(Edit: expand/clarify suggested benefits)

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:20PM (#29154429)
> once they’re behind the wheel

Keep in mind that most cyclists are also drivers, and in the latter role many of them also don't seem to care. These debates often sound like we're talking about two disjoint groups of people, with one having a grievance against the other, but in reality they're just different transport modalities that people switch between.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Rapzid on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#29155498)
Where I'm at there is a major project to overhaul a road, let's call it "Broadway", with conservation drainage, walkability(like 10ft wide sidewalks), medians, trees, and bike paths.

The project kept getting derailed due to bicycle special interests having a literal fit because a section of the road was too narrow to have the walkable sidewalks(priority number 1), the cycle lanes with adequate safety, and not congest the rest of the road. A consulting company made recommendations based on traffic simulations and the requirements to have the bicycle route go off onto a parallel side street through this section.

Oh man, what a shit show it turned into. But most of the pushback against what the cyclist special interests wanted(lanes through this section, fuck everything else) had to do with the practicalities of balancing the requirements. Not the meme arguments people who hate cars often throw out as scarecrows.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dan-robertson on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:25PM (#29155675)
From my totally uninformed perspective, it seems like the thing to lose should be the cars. If you’re having 10 ft wide sidewalks on a (guessing from the name) important street so that more people can walk there, then maybe you should deliberately make it worse for cars to discourage high speeds or unnecessary journeys. Of all modes of transport, cars are best able to make detours because they are fast and require little of the drivers energy to move. But (again guessing from the name) maybe this is a North American city and so cars must be properly cared for—it seems the car advocacy group didn’t even get the chance to complain about a single lane system because there wasn’t enough width, though maybe they already lost parking spaces or traffic lanes to the project and they did complain about it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by DonHopkins on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:58AM (#29158953)
The term for "deliberately make it worse for cars" is "Traffic Calming", and it works quite well, prevents accidents, and saves lives:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

>Traffic calming uses physical design and other measures to improve safety for motorists, pedestrians and cyclists. It has become a tool to combat speeding and other unsafe behaviours of drivers in the neighbourhoods. It aims to encourage safer, more responsible driving and potentially reduce traffic flow. Urban planners and traffic engineers have many strategies for traffic calming, including narrowed roads and speed humps. Such measures are common in Australia and Europe (especially Northern Europe), but less so in North America. Traffic calming is a calque (literal translation) of the German word Verkehrsberuhigung – the term's first published use in English was in 1985 by Carmen Hass-Klau.

https://www.wired.com/2004/12/traffic/

>HANS MONDERMAN is a traffic engineer who hates traffic signs. Oh, he can put up with the well-placed speed limit placard or a dangerous curve warning on a major highway, but Monderman considers most signs to be not only annoying but downright dangerous. To him, they are an admission of failure, a sign - literally - that a road designer somewhere hasn't done his job. "The trouble with traffic engineers is that when there's a problem with a road, they always try to add something," Monderman says. "To my mind, it's much better to remove things."

>[...] In Denmark, the town of Christianfield stripped the traffic signs and signals from its major intersection and cut the number of serious or fatal accidents a year from three to zero. In England, towns in Suffolk and Wiltshire have removed lane lines from secondary roads in an effort to slow traffic - experts call it "psychological traffic calming." A dozen other towns in the UK are looking to do the same. A study of center-line removal in Wiltshire, conducted by the Transport Research Laboratory, a UK transportation consultancy, found that drivers with no center line to guide them drove more safely and had a 35 percent decrease in the number of accidents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Monderman

Hans Monderman: Rethinking the design of streets and public space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjBGokenEhQ

>An Urban Design London and Urban Design Group Lecture

>Hans Monderman has been one of the most significant influences on the current debate about the design of streets and spaces in the UK. A traffic engineer and road safety specialist from Northern Holland, he is celebrated as the pioneer of shared space as a means to influence speed and driver behaviour.

>Monderman has been the inspiration behind scores of towns and villages which work without road markings, traffic signs, signals, kerbs, barriers and bollards. ‘Most engineers, when faced with a problem, try to add something,’ he says. ‘My instinct has always been to take something away.’ Following a short introduction by Rob Cowan, Hans explains his approach, work and experiences.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by celtain on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:28PM (#29156596)
So the alternative to making the bikes take a detour was that there would be more congestion, not that the road would be closed to cars entirely?

It sure doesn't sound like the "bike special interests" were the ones being unreasonable here.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Rapzid on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:41PM (#29157085)
The parallel road is not a full city block away as you might imagine. More like an ally but an actual road; the businesses have back entrances and there is foot traffic.

The congestion would not just be on that section of road, it would propogate out and cause major issues. The bikes are not going to experience congestion.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Symbiote on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:54PM (#29166614)
It should reduce the number of people driving. Sounds like a win.

In the gold standard countries for cycling, this sort of design is done on purpose. Pedestrians get the best route, followed by cyclists, and vehicles have what's left.

Elsewhere, doing the easy work to accommodate cycling, then ignoring anything that would cause even the slightest inconvenience to cars, is the norm.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Xylakant on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:00AM (#29158959)
It’s interesting to note that the cyclists in your example have the same interest as the rest of the parties: an equal and safe share of the available road space and yet, you all them “special interests” and they’re supposed to yield and take a detour.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Uehreka on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:36PM (#29155763)
“Think of the children” usually only works when the idea is that children could be violently harmed by something, and thus only works when deployed in cases where freedom is being restricted. It’s not a good faith argument that can be “use your enemy’s force against them”-ed for other causes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pjmlp on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:54PM (#29155390)
And free baths on rainy days.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:52PM (#29155929)
I think people should start pushing for cycling infrastructure on fiscal responsibility grounds. A good cycle path system is an extremely cheap way to provide mobility options to a city, all considered.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Steltek on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:56PM (#29155964)
I'm pretty sure most of the maintenance costs for a bike lane are for repainting it because cars drive over it and wear away the paint.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:37PM (#29157425)
Weather tends to be a factor in some areas too. But generally the damage that a vehicle does to the road is proportional to the per axle weight raised to the fourth power; bikes don’t even register in terms of road wear.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by carlmr on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:59AM (#29159277)
>People can cycle in to work without breaking a sweat.

This is a big one for me. Cycling into work doesn't take too much time (30 minutes), and it's good to be active. But showering at work you often need to wait, you need to bring all your clean clothes with you, and after going back you need to shower again.

It just costs too much time to cycle because of the sweating.

With e-Bikes I'm able to cycle into work slightly faster (saving a few minutes when going up hill) and I'm still fresh when I arrive.

Sure it's not as sporty, but it's something, especially compared to driving.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by a-dub on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:11AM (#29158678)
> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

i've seen this pushback come from two camps. 1) people with cars who get pissed when street parking or automobile lanes get turned into bike lanes (i prefer bike lanes, but i can at least understand this.) 2) professional users of the roads who saw early construction of bicycle infrastructure as something that would attract more cyclists and therefore make their jobs harder/riskier.

i feel like construction of bike infrastructure in many us cities is something that really blossomed in the late 00s/early 10s when urban cyclists were often more ragtag jorts with tattoos than "lycra-clad yuppies."

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by parineum on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:46PM (#29154010)
I support the efforts to make cities more friendly to cyclist traffic but the increased popularity of both ebikes and electric scooters in downtown areas has made life as a pedestrian and a motorist stressful, especially around closing time. All the things that annoy me about cyclists (running stop signs when driving in the street and driving on the sidewalk are my two biggest annoyances) have gotten worse.

Cycling advocates like to talk about sharing the road but I've yet to see any sort of acknowledgement that there's plenty of bad behavior on the part of cyclists that needs some curbing as well.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:00PM (#29154207)
That's generally because of terrible infrastructure. Lanes designed for cars are everywhere. Most cities, sidewalks are just about everywhere.

What percentage of streets have physically separated lanes for biking, the way we have them for walking?

Bikes don't fit well with pedestrians or cars, and painted bike lanes are a joke -- imagine if you replaced every sidewalk with "painted walk lanes".

In places where there is good infrastructure, like the Netherlands, cyclist reputations for behaving badly are basically no different from pedestrian or motorist reputations.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by parineum on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:09PM (#29154316)
You're not going to get any push back from me that bike lanes aren't plentiful or especially safe. The push back you get from me is that "the streets are dangerous" isn't an excuse to make sidewalks dangerous.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:47PM (#29154693)
Being a pedestrian around cyclists is dangerous, but not as dangerous as being a cyclist around cars. So I find it hard to fault cyclists who go onto the sidewalk.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jodrellblank on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:33PM (#29157038)
In the UK it's illegal to bike on the pavement. [1] says "Rule 64. You MUST NOT cycle on a pavement. Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A sect 129" (exception: combined bike lanes and pavement, if the cyclist stays in the bike section).

Saying "the way things are is dangerous for me, so I'm going to break the law and be a danger to others instead because I'm what matters here" is not ok behaviour. If cycling is too dangerous for you, don't cycle. You don't get to say "driving in traffic is dangerous so I'm going to drive in the bus lane where there's less traffic", right?

[1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cycli...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:12AM (#29157976)
Insisting that people risk their lives because "the law says you have to put yourself in mortal danger, therefore you're morally obliged to comply" is blind obedience of the dumbest degree.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jodrellblank on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:06AM (#29161200)
or the other option - walk on the pavement, with your bike.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:26PM (#29166234)
That's definitely the preferable path if there are significant numbers of pedestrians, yes. If the sidewalk is basically empty, I think it's okay to ride. And there are some 'multi-use paths' I've seen that are basically still just sidewalks where bikes are explicitly permitted.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stefan_ on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:01PM (#29155469)
Half the people that you "share the road" with in your metal box think that is exclusively where bikes must ride? This is getting a bit schizophrenic.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:22PM (#29154448)
Well put. Shifting the problem around doesn't solve it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:14PM (#29154964)
It does reduce the total danger. Cyclists are killed by cars all the time, whereas pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare.

In Germany, protected bike lanes are mostly extensions of the sidewalk, and while it's not ideal, it still works pretty well.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jodrellblank on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:35PM (#29157781)
> "Cyclists are killed by cars all the time, whereas pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare."

Evidence I can find suggests that's not entirely true. While pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare, police reports of crashes in the UK in 2019 involving a (pedal cycle, pedestrian) pair happened 375 times and killed 4 pedestrians (~1%). Crashes involving a (car, bike) pair happened 13,336 times killed 48 cyclists (~0.3%).

That is (bike, pedestrian) happens 35x less often than (car, bike) but is fatal to the weaker party 3x more often when it does happen.

This dataset is particularly "accidents involving a pedal cycle and pedestrians which don't involve any other vehicles" so it excludes car -> bike + walker, kills walker situations.

(Injuries are another matter).

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/reported... looking at sheet RAS40004: Accidents, vehicle users and pedestrian casualties by severity and combination of vehicles involved (ODS, 105KB) with Vehicle A being Pedal Cycle -> Single Vehicle accident with Pedestrian and Pedal Cycle -> Two vehicle accidents with Car.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:14AM (#29157987)
This ignores the fact that bikes are so much less dangerous than cars that most crashes that involve a bike but not a car will not be reported. Your average time a cyclist runs into a pedestrian will be only an annoyance.

Also, note that super bike-friendly Netherlands has 1/10th the pedestrian fatalities with 1/4th the population of the UK. If bikes are that dangerous, why would such a bike-focused country have radically fewer pedestrian fatalities?

From what I've seen, the data is pretty consistent, in that more car-focused countries tend to have more pedestrian fatalities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:39PM (#29155214)
> It does reduce the total danger.

I think that's kind of missing the GP's point. AIUI they weren't saying cyclists shouldn't move to the sidewalk when necessary. They were saying cyclists should do so with respect for the sidewalk's primary users especially with regard to safety. A sidewalk is a kind of commons, to be shared. "I need this now so you all get out of my way" isn't good sharing, and in many places (where the law explicitly gives pedestrians right of way) should deserve a ticket.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TulliusCicero on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:52PM (#29155373)
Oh, absolutely. I try to be respectful when I ride on the sidewalk.

But realistically, "cyclists should be nicer" isn't a policy prescription. We're just shouting into the void here, you can't actually accomplish anything significant with, I dunno, billboards shaming dickhead cyclists. Whereas zoning or road design changes could result in actual, meaningful change. And that would also result in cyclists being a lot nicer.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevincrane on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:50PM (#29154069)
Most bikers only use the sidewalk when the road infrastructure as-is isn’t safe enough for bikers.

And I fully agree that there are a lot of bad bikers, but a bad biker is a nuisance to a driver while a bad driver is a potential fatality to a biker.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by notacoward on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:56PM (#29154143)
> a bad biker is a nuisance to a driver while a bad driver is...

You're leaving out an entire category of users. Not that I'm surprised, having been in many of these debates regarding the multi use path near my home. "Share the road" turns into "get off the path" rather quickly, in my experience.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by parineum on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:07PM (#29154296)
> Most bikers only use the sidewalk when the road infrastructure as-is isn’t safe enough for bikers.

You have to see how this is a completely selfish position right?

The road is dangerous for cyclists so cyclists make the sidewalk dangerous for pedestrians. Sure there's a difference in degree but that's not a justification.

> And I fully agree that there are a lot of bad bikers, but a bad biker is a nuisance to a driver while a bad driver is a potential fatality to a biker.

To me, the "bad cyclist" is generally creating havoc on both the sidewalk and the street, alternating between street, sidewalk, crosswalks, alleys, etc. as it's convenient. This is really what I'm referring to when I said "especially at closing time". Those people are creating a dangerous environment for even safe drivers who may either hit them or get in an accident avoiding them.

I don't often find the hobbyist biker doing things like that which are dangerous to themselves except treating stop signs like yields.

I'm not nearly as concerned about the hobbyist as I am about the guy who thinks driving his ebike home from the bar is a great way to get home without drinking and driving. And that is definitely happening, especially with electric scooters.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by gpvos on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:08PM (#29155538)
> You have to see how this is a completely selfish position right?

That depends how busy the sidewalk is, and how the cyclist behaves. Conversely, I see videos of many places in North America where cycling on the road, even in dedicated cycle lanes, is a suicidal activity.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by resonantjacket5 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:42PM (#29156697)
> You have to see how this is a completely selfish position right?

> The road is dangerous for cyclists so cyclists make the sidewalk dangerous for pedestrians. Sure there's a difference in degree but that's not a justification.

Have you ever tried biking on a 45/50mph road? The chance of you not being hit at the end of the day is not high. I'm not sure where else would one bike when there's such a large speed difference.

And in some US cities there really are no alternative roads with lower speeds limits to bike on.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jyounker on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:15PM (#29156912)
You are assuming that people using the sidewalk are doing so in a reckless manner.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:06AM (#29158274)
Well, humans are selfish, regardless of their mode of transportation. That's why we need infrastructure (and laws) that ensures that the selfish choice is the socially beneficial one too.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sam_bishop on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:56PM (#29155962)
For what it's worth, in the state I live in it is legal for bike riders to treat stop signs as yield signs. It started in Idaho in the 80s and has been adopted by a growing number of states since then.

It's also legal in my state to ride bikes on the sidewalk. That doesn't cause much of a problem for pedestrians because unfortunately there are few bike riders or pedestrians.

I only mention this to make people aware that what's legal depends on where they live.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mountain_peak on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:47PM (#29154020)
As much as I appreciate the freedom e-bikes provide to people who wouldn't otherwise venture outside, without proper cycling infrastructure, e-bikes are quickly becoming a serious hazard to pedestrians. As a long-time runner who is usually struck by at least one cyclist on the sidewalk per year, e-bikes are in a completely different class. The other day, a kid on an e-bike was careening down a bridge while my kids and I were running up. I'm a decent judge of speed, and the cyclist was definitely going over 40 km/h with dog walkers and other children nearby. I didn't do the math, but that's a great deal of kinetic energy to transfer to a pedestrian (I assume e-bikes are heavier, and most cyclists going that fast are dedicated cyclists on the road). I caught up to another e-bike at a stop light and asked him why he wasn't on the road, "Too dangerous," was his answer - sadly typical. A non-trivial number of cyclists are adopting the "Uber" mindset - break the law until laws or infrastructure changes, but with complete disregard for fellow citizens in the meantime. I've expressed my concerns several times on local biking forums (when a "cycling on the sidewalk doesn't hurt anyone" message is raised)- it's usually met with ridicule, anger and disbelief, but I experience it practically every day.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pcwalton on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:55PM (#29154132)
Regarding running stop signs, "Why Bicyclists Hate Stop Signs" is an important read: https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Fajans-J.-and-M...
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by parineum on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:13PM (#29154359)
I've ridden a bicycle before, I don't need this explained to me. Unfortunately for cyclists (including me), it being more strenuous to obey the law isn't an excuse to not obey it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dTal on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:54PM (#29156779)
Unfortunately, it being more strenuous to obey the law will reduce the number of people obeying it, whether it's an excuse or not.

When deciding policy, one cannot afford to frame things in terms of personal responsibility.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:42AM (#29158498)
The law is there as mandate from the people. If it isn't working, or seriously inconviences a particular demographic, it can be changed. Note that cyclists have no problems with circles/roundabouts...
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:10AM (#29158672)
I find it odd that stop sign is a go to complain about cyclists, given that those do nothing for bike. And I say that as someone who drives car way more often as bike. Cyclist ignoring stop sign is not an issue at all, stop signs exists because of cars.

The red light, yes, that is valid complain. But stop sign, meh.

But also, pretty much any transport mode features people with bed behavior: cars, pedestrians, roller skaters. Those people are not even that much demographically different, unless the transport ends up tied to politics.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by namdnay on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:00AM (#29159669)
Maybe because it's because within the three groups (cyclists, drivers, pedestrians), cyclists are the only ones who haven't got their own infrastructure.

If cyclists had 90% of the road, and cars were forced to share the remaining 10% with pedestrians, everyone would be complaining (with reason) that's it's incredibly dangerous

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by joshlemer on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:59PM (#29154202)
I thought this video addressed nicely this criticism of cyclists https://youtu.be/HT_KdFCVEdc
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by parineum on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:16PM (#29154382)
It doesn't. The law is that they have to stop. Motorists should stop too.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:44AM (#29158514)
The law is that nobody goes above the speed limit as well, I hope you never do that since you seem to be an absolutist on this? Because from what I've seen, 95% of cars break the speed limit. I'd even argue it's a higher percentage than bicycles who blow through stop signs.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by joshlemer on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:31PM (#29154542)
If basically 100% of people are breaking a law dozens of times per day, the law is wrong.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Gareth321 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:20AM (#29159401)
I cycle to work now on an ebike and it's awesome. Just need to dress warm when it's cold. One catch is there's an obvious range limitation. If it takes longer than other forms of transport, people are going to choose the other forms of transport. On the other hand, as congestion in a particular area increases, that equation shifts in favour of ebikes, meaning they can be considered organic efficiency regulators of the transport system.

Another catch is safety. Forcing bikes to share the road is dangerous. Cities really need bike lanes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ajuc on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:48AM (#29158527)
> The thing that excites me most about e-bikes is that they change the politics around cycling. Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies.

Is this even a thing outside of USA? Nobody thinks that where I live, and it's not a particularly bike-friendly country like Netherlands, just average EU country.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tgsovlerkhgsel on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:17AM (#29158336)
> legislation aimed at reducing emissions subtly encourages the use of cars

I'm curious about this - do you have specific examples? HOV/EV lanes?

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 2-718-281-828 on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:47PM (#29154694)
you can also look at it from another angle - those e bikers are now a threat to regular bikers as they are driving much faster.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jimmaswell on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:39PM (#29156672)
Street legal ebikes don't let you go any faster than a fit cyclist. They just make hills, taking off, and long rides easier.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 2-718-281-828 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:45AM (#29159190)
a 60 y/o hearing impaired unexperienced cyclist riding as fast as a fit experienced cyclist - good look with that. maybe you want to overthink your argument.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by radu_floricica on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:59AM (#29159279)
The same 60 yo might use a car instead, and drive multiples of 25kph. And energy is proportional to the square of the speed, so typical ebike will have about an order of magnitude less energy than the typical car, with also an order of magnitude less mass.

Nassim Taleb made some pretty interesting points on the magnitude of a risk vs its probability. If you get a shower of pebbles thrown on your head, you'll be sore at worst. If you get the same mass thrown as one big rock... you're dead.

Same with bikes. You're much more likely to fall (you really are). But chances are, you'll not even ruin your clothes when you do, and the risk of serious injury, while of course present, is much much smaller.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 2-718-281-828 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:40AM (#29160930)
or even fly a plane? or operate a nuclear plant?

we're talking here about cycling on bicycle lanes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by radu_floricica on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:26AM (#29162135)
Most people don't fly planes to go buy cigarettes. Are you sure you're ok? I'd suggest a snickers :)