News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:52PM (#29155368)
Mixed-use paths are an extremely bad idea and dangerous for everybody. I actively avoid them as a pedestrian and as a cyclist. They should all disappear. If ebikes help to accelerate the inevitable dismissal of these stupid mixed-use lanes, so good!

A bike-friendly infrastructure is based on three separate networks, for pedestrians, cycles and cars. Each of the three networks must be continuous, reasonably complete and able to stand on its own.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dan-robertson on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:08PM (#29155535)
I think I mostly disagree. But this probably depends on the definition of cyclist. If these path users are lycra-clad individuals trying to go as fast as they can and desperately trying not to lose momentum, the experience will be poor. Similarly if you have e-bike users who are basically taking silent mopeds down a trail and swerving between people things won’t go well. But if it’s someone who is not obsessed with speed just trying to go from one place to the next on a wide path it’s probably fine. E-bikes are an advantage here because they remove the incentive to avoid slowing down to preserve momentum.

Ultimately it depends on the cycling culture in a place and a lot of that depends on whom cycling is available to. If it is more accessible you will probably find people acting more sensibly and more like pedestrians.

A mixed use trail can provide refuge from busy roads. This is much more important if roads are awful for cyclists and I this can often be the case in some parts of the world. If roads are good for cyclists then the obnoxious people who would otherwise endanger those on the trail will be happier going faster and straighter along the roads. But they will only get better if cycling is more popular which will only happen if it is more accessible.

I think mixed use paths are not particularly bad and are also necessary on the way to better infrastructure.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:20AM (#29158351)
Mixed use paths as seen in parks are for dogs, pedestrians, children cyclists and beginners. They are not and should not be for commuting except maybe as a last mile connection, because commuters are moving at about 15-20km/h if they want to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. As soon as they get busy there are so many conflict points that accidents are inevitable.

Calling them bike infrastructure is like calling a school zone with zebra crossings and speed bumps a highway.

They are what should be built first though, because you don't get new cyclists without low speed, safe, fully separated bike infrastructure. They should always be paired with a nearby road with a cycle lane and somr plan for separated infrastructure though.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:55AM (#29158570)
I don't think this is true. The mixed use paths are pretty good start. People use them for commute. The special bike lane is more expensive and ideal step, but not necessary.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:52AM (#29159235)
As soon as any significant fraction of people use them they become congested, slow, and dangerous to pedestrians. Slowing to 5km/h repeatedly whilst waiting for an opening for a large portion of your journey makes commuting far less pleasant and severely limits viable range, and being overtaken constantly is unpleasant and dangerous for pedestrians.

The separated bike lane *and* the mixed use path is the end goal, but if the immediate goal is to save the city money and make people healthier rather than create conflict and negative sentiment towards cycling, then you need a separate route for ebikes and more experienced commuters. Sharrows or magic paint suffice for this (at least temporarily) with adequate traffic calming or if the main car flow has an alternate route.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:39AM (#29160334)
The separated lane is just too expensive while there are just a few bikers. If people start using bikes on mixed purpose roads too much, building them after makes sense. But while you are just in the process of promoting the whole cycle thing and there are not that many people, building dedicated tracks does not make much sense. This was the case in our city for quite long time. There was no massive negative sentiment towards cycling. More like, cyclists complained and when there were enough of them infrastructure started to build.

Imo, American negative sentiment and aggression toward bicycles is way more about politics and assumed demographics then anything else. It does not matter how well behaved average cyclist is. It does not matter how intrusive or safe it is. The people who are aggressive will focus on that one minor infraction that happened once to validate their anger.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:44AM (#29160976)
> The separated lane is just too expensive while there are just a few bikers

I think we overall agree, but there are many things that can be done to reduce conflit points.

Firstly I agreed that the mixed lane with a shared car/bicycle alternate route should come first (as this covers both short/slow speed trips and high speed/high confidence trips), but secondly the shared lane has an absurdly small cost. Under 5% of the space and an even smaller fraction of the money spent on roads will give you a world leading bicycle network, and if you build it, it will be used -- cycling on good infrastructure is simply so much cheaper and more convenient than car ownership and cycle lanes have so much more capacity than roads that it becomes a no brainer.

I agree that bootstrapping it to get the political will needed for that pittance is extremely hard, which is why we need to think very carefully about encouraging long distance commuters who must average over 15km/h to make reasonable time and people taking the pram for a walk to mix. Ebikes are a big potential issue because they are both fast and favoured by new riders. It will only take one ebike with the speed limiter removed accidentally injuring a kid and hitting the news to set back bike infrastructure in an entire country by years.

Step 1 is mixed paths connecting local destinations (schools, shops, church, etc) and start reserving your space for the separated bikeway

Step 2 is a fully connected network where all the mixed paths have an alternate route with magic green paint or sharrows for high speed trips and to handle congestion.

Step 3 is build the separated paths.

You can't skip step 2 or avoid thinking about step 3 until it is too late.

Additionally throughout this process you need to fix all the cyclist and pedestrian hostile signals (waiting for a full 5 minhte cycle at a one way street full of stopped cars because the button wasn't pressed is absurd) and provide some alternative to stop signs (carefully designed roundabouts, yield signs, or cyclists-yield laws with public outreach work okay).

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fouc on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:37AM (#29160905)
It's not really expensive, since you're mainly re-drawing lines on the road, removing a lane for cars (or reducing parking area) and adding a lane for e-bikes. The bonus is that it encourages more e-bike use and reduces vehicle pressure.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:43AM (#29162375)
Our city don't have all that many parking places. I do like riding bikes, but I would be really against reducing of parking area.

It is already difficult to have a car near house where you live here.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:00AM (#29162600)
So, you cannot afford enough space to store your stuff (your car, which besides having an impractically huge size is a major ecological burden) and you want that your city allocates premium street space just for you. Then you say cyclists ask too much. This over the top attitude would even be cute if it wasn't sadly so common.

You complain that bike lanes are not used "enough", but a single parked car forces a whole lane to have a throughput of 0 commuters per hour. A bike lane that gets a single cyclist per hour is infinitely more efficient!

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#29155490)
That's a nice ideal but it's just not realistic in most existing built up areas. There's literally not enough space for three separate networks without knocking down existing buildings and buying a lot of land through eminent domain. Let's focus on what can actually be achieved with realistic levels of funding.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:17PM (#29156926)
"That's a nice ideal but it's just not realistic in most existing built up areas. There's literally not enough space"

There was not enough space for cars, we tore down entire neighbourhoods and blasted through bedrock to create highways.

There is not enough money to fund a moon program or fix climate change, but when time came to bail out the banks, if you stacked that money as 1-dollar bills it would reach the moon.

There is not enough money to Fusion research, but our fossil fuel and airline subsidies in one year are greater that all-time fusion research budget.

Priorities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by watwut on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:57AM (#29158585)
> There was not enough space for cars, we tore down entire neighbourhoods and blasted through bedrock to create highways.

The prioritization back then was that "those people" don't matter. That is how those were build.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Maarten88 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:20PM (#29156541)
A bike lane can carry more people than a car lane.

Especially in the US there is plenty of space you can take away from cars, both lanes and parking.

The Netherlands did not knock down and rebuild Amsterdam to build bike paths. They took space back from cars.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rahen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:10PM (#29164327)
This also scales well with size, so you will see that with NYC, Paris, Tokyo and most large "world cities".
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Gareth321 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:28AM (#29159450)
I encourage you to watch [this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o) No one believed they had enough space in the Netherlands either. Turns out they did, with some creative engineering, time, money, and sheer force of will. It's not easy. It takes a long time. But with a steady hand and the ability to cut through lobby interests, it can be done. Note that they didn't need to knock down many buildings in the NL. They did things like reducing 3-4 lanes to 2; making roads and footpaths narrower; reclaiming roads and re-routing vehicle traffic elsewhere; and of course better utilising a lot of wasted curbside land. Plus lots of redrawing of city plans to ensure future building and renovations incorporated the vision.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:55PM (#29155949)
That’s only true if you presume that demand for roads remain constant. Ideally you’d hope that cycle infrastructure would offset some road use, which would allow the state to reclaim some lanes for cyclists. Given how space inefficient cars are, it wouldn’t require a significant drop in road usage for cyclists to be given all the space they need independent from pedestrians.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sokoloff on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:03PM (#29156429)
Most roads around here that are not controlled access are one lane in each direction. Those that aren’t have often had a lane dedicated to buses (and emergency vehicles). There are rarely lanes free to be taken unless cycling becomes so prevalent to displace cars to zero on some routes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ashtonkem on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:42PM (#29157462)
Depends on your city I guess. You didn’t specify where you live, but I’d broadly categorize the cities I’ve lived into two categories.

The first is car centric, with lots of roads and deep set backs. These cities are amenable to bike and public transit transformation in terms of space, but usually have political resistance to change. These cities will be the easiest to add extra bike infrastructure to, once a political mass is reached. My current city is like this, and the current bike path master plan is trying to add enough paths for 96% of the city to be near bike infrastructure (currently it’s 10%).

The second category are really dense, and do not have the space for any extra lanes. But these cities dedicate a huge amount of space for parallel parking. Theoretically the city could remove parking for bikes, but practically this means purposefully pricing people out of car ownership, which is obviously unpopular. These cities should focus on public transit, which is by and far the most space efficient way to move people. For a lot of these cities this is less about installing new lines, which is expensive, but about making the existing system feel cleaner and more dignified. It will always be hard to make improvements when even the crappiest sedan is considered a step up from taking the subway to work.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adgjlsfhk1 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:07PM (#29156863)
And that's a really good idea
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:57AM (#29158230)
Pretty much all roads where I live have two sidewalks, two rows of parked cars and at least one lane for car traffic, usually two. Take away half the free parking and you have space for cyclists.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by danny_codes on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:33PM (#29156628)
I don't think this is true. I lived in SF for a while (assumedly this meets your definition of built up), and there's plenty of space.

The key is that cars don't belong in most places anyway. A residential street can easily be design as a 10mph one way cobblestone road with calming measures, freeing up the "other direction" side of the street for a 2-way bike lane and expanded sidewalks. Larger roads can be redesigned similarly for bike/transit with cars filling in particular niches like delivery of bulk items, etc.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:30AM (#29158416)
A tram or two way brt lane, a dedicated bike path, a footpath, and 2 lanes of car traffic can carry 5-20x as many people as a 6 lane stroad and takes up less space.

It also costs less to maintain, kills fewer people, massively reduces healthcare costs improves the local economy and is far nicer to live next to.

There is plenty of money, most places are just directing it to yet another road widening project that will make things worse.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ghaff on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:34PM (#29156632)
Not sure how common this is in other places but in Massachusetts a fair number of rail trails have sprung up over the past few decades--often over considerable opposition in some town or another. Some, like the Minuteman, were explicitly "bikeways" (although pedestrians and, for a time at least, rollerblades are also common). Others have always been pitched as mixed use.

In any case, it's pretty much a non-starter to prohibit at least conventional bikes or pedestrians even though, on the more crowded and narrower paths, I'll avoid them during busy times as a walker.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by lmm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:32AM (#29158087)
You're right, most city centres need to ban cars to make room for more efficient alternatives.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fouc on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:40AM (#29160932)
You're forgetting that car lanes & parking spaces on sides of roads can be re-drawn to fit e-bikes and reduce overall car use (which is the goal anyways).
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:40PM (#29165561)
I live in Montreal. Our most bike friendly borough allocates around one twentieth the space for bikes as for cars.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wittycardio on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:20PM (#29157328)
Building bike lanes is extremely cheap, not sure why funding is an issue
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stevejb on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:02PM (#29155478)
Not sure why you're downvoted on this. I used to live near a very popular mixed-use bike trail, and walking with my kids there was really unpleasant. There were some cyclists who would go really fast and not slow down at all, and I had little kids who might see a butterfly and move unpredictably. It was bad for everyone.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:45PM (#29156715)
I agree with this. I definitely think there are some kinds of pedestrian traffic that probably shouldn't use a high traffic mixed trail. Situational awareness and understanding how to stay on your 'side' of the trial is pretty important.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jnwatson on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:42PM (#29156294)
We’re starting to separate popular mixed-use paths in Northern VA:

https://www.insidenova.com/news/arlington/w-od-trail-effort-...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by TrevorJ on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:39PM (#29156669)
In a perfect world, sure. But it's quite a bit better than treating bikes as human powered cars. It's also pretty easy to do safely: walk and ride on the right, pass on the left, and only when there's no oncoming traffic. People here follow that convention and it mitigates almost all of the issues.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Gareth321 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:22AM (#29159408)
I agree, but I prefer mixed use paths to mixed use roads. In terms of speed and safety, bikes are much closer to pedestrians than cars. It is insanity to have bikes sharing the road.