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Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jmcphers on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:49PM (#29156339)
> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

It's true that a bicycle is itself cheaper than a car, but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. The bicycle itself isn't the expensive part; you need proximity, extra commute time, and infrastructure. That stuff just isn't accessible to many people.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by richiebful1 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:27PM (#29157735)
This doesn't generalize to most cities though. In my Rust Belt city, the government has put a lot of effort into making cycling safer on the road. The people cycling from one neighborhood to the next are a diverse bunch. Kids are using cheap hand-me-down bikes to go to school. College kids are commuting to campus. Adults of all ages are riding to work at a service job or downtown office.

What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods.

The rich lycra-wearing stereotype won't go away until we invest in equitable access to bike infrastructure.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mcny on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:10AM (#29158675)
» What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods.

I've never been to Chattanooga, TN but once I realized I can work from home I've been curious about owning a home somewhere with gigabit fiber but without ridiculously expensive real estate within commuting distance to a Costco or Sam's Club (so clearly not Jersey City, NJ or Longmont, CO).

What I noticed just looking at Google Maps Street View was that any home within my price range lacked a sidewalk. Apparently, only the wealthy people in Chattanooga, TN need sidewalks. How do we talk about bike lanes when places lack sidewalks?

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:20AM (#29158738)
TN is a tax haven state. You're not going to get polished municipal services and infrastructure.

Western New York has cheap housing and older, 150+ year old urbanization that doesn't suffer as much from 20th century shortsightedness.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Symbiote on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:38AM (#29159919)
How are sidewalks "polish"?

In most of the world, they're the default thing - before a roadway suitable for cars, before piped water, before sewers, before electricity.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ThunderSizzle on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:17AM (#29161306)
Because where you gonna walk to? Your gonna walk 5 miles to Target and back?

That'd why sidewalks is polish. Most sidewalks I see outside of tight downtowns are useless and barely used, and they aren't free to build and they don't generate anything if no one uses them...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BizarroLand on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:16PM (#29169409)
I've been to and through Chattanooga a bunch of times. It is a city where you almost definitely need a car for basic subsistence.

The poor areas are super poor and semi-distant from goods and services. Biking somewhere from the poor areas, unless you have time and energy to spare, is going to be a big undertaking most of the time, not even accounting for the hills.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:41PM (#29164739)
They are not a default thing anywhere in America that developed after WW2. Most car centric places dispense with them as an "unnecessary" cost or, where they do exist, they're disconnected decoration with limited utility.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by howenterprisey on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:26AM (#29159439)
What are some other tax haven states I should know about?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by liveoneggs on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:33AM (#29163048)
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire, and Wyoming
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nonesuchluck on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:48PM (#29170855)
I've lived in Chattanooga long enough to call it home (decade+). First thing about Chattanooga is, it's built on the backbone of the Interstate system, in the valley between some mountains. It's a bigtime car city. Anyone outside our immediate downtown has to hop the highway to even get here, or brave treacherous mountain roads (our W Road is even a tiny bit famous... W not being a compass point, but a shape).

As you've noticed on Google, our downtown and close-lying (expensive) neighborhoods have sidewalks and bike lanes aplenty. They're fantastic. But there's no similar facilities in older, poorer, and outlying neighborhoods (many of which were simply suburbs until the city crept in). Nor any practical connection between neighborhoods for foot+pedal traffic.

But our internet's great.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by liveoneggs on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:30AM (#29163010)
riding a bike in Chattanooga takes some muscle! Sidewalks are pretty optional in most of the south east, even in "wealthy" areas.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by motioncuty on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:52AM (#29163345)
Longmonts costco is in superior, not too far. Its pretty nice.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mjmahone17 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:16PM (#29156520)
Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments.

Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by sdenton4 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:59PM (#29156819)
The right way to drive a little bit is car share programs, or just eating a car rental fee occasionally. Mean cost of car ownership in the US is over $9000; you can buy a damn fancy e-bike and rent a car a few times in a year and still come out quite far ahead. (and you only need to buy the e-bike approximately once.)

https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by bryanlarsen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:09AM (#29161902)
I had a friend who used to rent a limo for first and special dates. Even that was cheaper than owning a car.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @11:46AM (#29176826)
Limos (especially older ones) are surprisingly cheap. Growing up, my family of 5 used to take a limo to the airport for vacations. It felt kind of ridiculous, but it was actually about the same price as the 2 taxis we would've had to take (and obviously way more pleasant), which itself was cheaper than parking and leaving a car at the airport.

It probably says more about how expensive taxis were pre-Uber. I'm sure ride shares are a nontrivial part of living without a car today.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by chrisseaton on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#29157130)
> Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant

Housing isn’t abundant within 50 miles of London and other similar major cities, let alone 5.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cjrp on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:49AM (#29159589)
It's true, but with a folding bike your criteria for a house can now be "fewer than 5 miles away from a tube/train line" and let the public transport do the heavy lifting.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by barry-cotter on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:12AM (#29158686)
That's a fact about policy choices, not something that can't be changed. If building housing wasn't illegal it would be built. Developers love money and the Green Belt is quite big enough to spare one Mnahattan's area if it was politically possible to build a Manhattan's worth of housing on it.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by chrisseaton on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:24AM (#29160223)
> That's a fact about policy choices, not something that can't be changed.

Ok but now we’ve moved from ‘bicycling is relatively practical’ to ‘it’d be relatively practical if only everything about our politics and built environment was instantly completely different.’

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by pharmakom on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:34AM (#29158827)
Consider that a comparable amount of space is dedicated to car parking as parks in London.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by aigo on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:30AM (#29159101)
And there are a lot of parks and green spaces in London!

The amount of on street car parking in zones 2-3 is insane. Now that actually IS a subsidy to rich people.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fnord77 on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#29156704)
5 miles is quite a distance for a bike commute. I've done about this distance for a while and I won't go back to doing it.

Interestingly, the average distance the Dutch ride is about 1.2 miles per day:

https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:50PM (#29156757)
5 miles is a very easy bike commute, not sure what you're talking about. It's about 20 minutes each way.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by vishnugupta on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:38AM (#29158467)
> 5 miles is a very easy bike commute

Having done a similar distance in the cycling capital of the world for about a year I wouldn't exactly call it "easy". I was happy to exchange it for a bus + tram combination even though it added ~15 minutes. Though I'll admit it's nice to be able to commute that distance by bike once or twice a week; but to do it day in and day out gets tiring.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by enriquto on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:25AM (#29159083)
> to do it day in and day out gets tiring

Can confirm this: I'm doing a 14 km commute and yes, for the first few weeks it's really tiring. Wanted to go to sleep as soon as I got home every afternoon. However, after say 2 or 3 months, your metabolism sort of adapts to it and you do it "naturally", without thinking too much about it. The idea of taking the bus again makes me anxious, though.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by LAC-Tech on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:44PM (#29157104)
It's a very easy bike commute for the kind of people who self-select as riding bicycles.

General population would struggle. I used to bike commute twice that distance regularly and think that'd take me more like 25, maybe 30 now that I haven't done it for almost 2 years.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Scroedingershat on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:38AM (#29158126)
Funny thing about exercise is you get better at it, people who have had ebikes for a while (especially the ones that assist based on pedal power) tend to be less overweight and fitter for a reason. Also trikes work just fine for someone with mobility or balance problems (although a decent e trike is by no means cheap, similar up front to a second hand car).

I live in a city with mediocre to poor bike infrastructure at best, and I see plenty of 50-70 year old women doing 25km/h on ebikes or 10-15km/h on regular bikes.

Granted I wasn't overweight when I started, but after 5 years of largely being a couch potato and doing office work, I averaged around 20km/h or ~12mph door to door over a commute of 10 miles on a 40lb trike.

After getting fitter I'm about the same speed but a shower and change of clothes at the other end is optional now even on a 32C day rather than being drenched.

Your experience can only be due to bike hostile infrastructure or laws. If you had to stop three times for 2-5 minutes a piece at each intersection in a car while the empty lane for bikes and pedestrians got a green light on the off chance they showed up, you'd probably be complaining about how inconvenient driving was.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by LAC-Tech on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:06AM (#29159313)
> Your experience can only be due to bike hostile infrastructure or laws.

No, I'm just a person with very little natural fitness who happened to enjoy riding a bicycle.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by adrianN on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:38AM (#29158130)
That's what e-bikes are for.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by wmil on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#29156825)
Google maps estimates it about 35 minutes, so almost twice as long as you're thinking.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:04PM (#29156845)
I do it every day. It depends on elevation gain (so it could take much longer depending on the route) but usually I'm closer to 15 minutes than 20. 15mph on average for a daily bike commuter doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by breuleux on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:38PM (#29157062)
It depends on location, if you're biking in a city at rush hour you're stopping every other block, getting stuck behind other cyclists, and at least where I live, constantly slowing down to avoid getting killed by potholes. There's basically no way you're doing 5 miles in 20 minutes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by initplus on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:57AM (#29158237)
On the other hand, if you are in heavy traffic stopping constantly at lights other traffic is also going to be travelling at that same slow speed.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _se on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:43PM (#29157099)
That's fair. I biked in San Diego last week and the lights/potholes were brutal.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by oarabbus_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:25AM (#29158047)
You're claiming you can ride 5 miles in closer to 15 minutes than 20, and through a city?
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Jensson on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:09AM (#29159329)
If you commute you will mostly ride on dedicated bike lanes without many stops so you can go at full speed most of the way. I've commuted around 3 miles in a not so bike friendly city in Europe and it took about 15 minutes since there are dedicated bikeways without any traffic lights you can take most of the way.

If you commute in rush hour that is actually a lot faster than going by car, so biking is the fastest option available.

Edit: And that was at a leisurely pace, similar to the effort of walking.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by lmm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:27AM (#29158054)
Google maps pads their bike times by a huge amount. (I just googled 8km in 35 minutes and got results asking about that as a running pace).
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by tomcooks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:26AM (#29158389)
That's due to the sES spamfest fitness blog driven results.

Google maps calculations are decided by Google and take into account padding plus some degree of inclination calculation

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by usefulcat on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:45PM (#29157838)
I used to do a 5 mile commute. I didn’t have to deal with any major elevation changes, and it was about 35 minutes. Maybe a professional athlete could do it in 20, but they would still have to wait at stoplights occasionally. You will definitely arrive sweaty unless you are in a very cold climate. All that said, I consider 5 miles to be pretty reasonable for a bike commute.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by mrb on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:29AM (#29158405)
You are both right: 5 miles is about 20min on an electric bike, but 35min on a traditional bike.

I do a 4.8-mile trip on a class 3 ebike (28 mph) consistently in 14 minutes in San Diego north county.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rhinoceraptor on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:44PM (#29157110)
That would be an extremely leisurely pace. If you commute regularly on a bike and are reasonably fit, you should be able to ride at about 12 mph without breaking a sweat, which gets you a time of about 25 minutes.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by oarabbus_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:24AM (#29158038)
Obtaining a speed of 12mph is not difficult for most reasonably fit people.

_Averaging_ a 12mph pace with signal lights, traffic, and stop signs is an entirely different story, especially in a busy cities.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by usefulcat on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:48PM (#29157854)
Sure, if you never have to wait for a stoplight.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nayaketo on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:23AM (#29158370)
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by Drunk_Engineer on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:39AM (#29158864)
YMMV. Google map estimates for cycling are very inaccurate in my experience.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by louhike on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:46AM (#29159571)
It depends on where you ride. My commute is 5 miles, and it takes 30 minutes, even though I'm used to bike, because of the circulation, all the time I have to stop.

I agree it's easy if you're fit though. But I know it can be a pain for people who don't do sport at least weekly.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by _ph_ on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @06:58AM (#29160484)
Well, first of all, if you bike regularly, you get all the training you need. The first couple of weeks are perhaps a bit hard, but that's about it for anyone in somewhat ok shape. And then there is the catch which is also the headline of the article we are discussing here: e-bikes. They allow anyone to go at a reasonable speed even uphill. That is, why they create a huge biking crowd.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by louhike on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:47PM (#29166515)
Indeed!
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ericmcer on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:50AM (#29158534)
On a quiet flat road 5 miles is a pleasant cruise, through a hilly busy city even 1-2 miles can be a huge pain.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by cowmoo728 on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:19PM (#29157690)
8km is bad if the rider has to wait at a lot of stoplights or cross a lot of roads. But if there's a good cycle path, 8km is a comfortable and easy cruise. Even easier on an e-bike. I did a 9km commute down the west side bike path of Manhattan and I found it to be easy and relaxing compared to much shorter commutes through SF, for example.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jkdufair on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:50PM (#29156753)
A 5 mile commute on an eBike is trivial.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by fnord77 on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:45PM (#29157486)
I have a class 3 ebike (28 mph). I found the 5 mile commute exhausting even though I wasn't exerting myself much. Mentally exhausting, I guess. It's trivial once - it's a grind doing it 2x every day. This is in San Francisco. I'm in good shape, I run 4-5 miles a couple times a week.

I think the worst part is a stop sign every block.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by scott_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#29158297)
As you’ve highlighted: it’s the infrastructure slowing you down. That’s why cities need to build good bike infrastructure, so it’s safe and easy to ride around.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by BoxOfRain on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:30AM (#29159866)
> Mentally exhausting, I guess.

I used to commute by (ordinary) cycling and this is a huge part of it. It's stressful navigating on urban roads through taxis and vans who seem to see you as the equivalent of a preachy vegan on wheels and drive like complete arses as a result. I've been literally run off the road by people who either can't be bothered to check their mirrors or have some creepy notion that cyclists "deserve" to be scared off the road by their aggressive driving. The only deterrent seems to be wearing a camera because they know it's the only way they'll ever have a chance of facing prosecution for it.

I'd never dream of telling someone else how to live their lives, I'm not one of those moral crusaders who endlessly harrass people about giving up their cars in favour of bikes. I just don't want to get mowed down by Billy Big Bollocks because he's too important to wait ten seconds to overtake safely.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rectang on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:18PM (#29156936)
That depends on road conditions and layout, typical traffic, weather, general health (need decent balance, eyesight, hearing, ability to ride over potholes, enough toughness that a spill isn't life-threatening)...

I could go for "often doable".

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by 542354234235 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @01:25PM (#29165344)
>general health (need decent balance, eyesight, hearing

That’s a pretty uncharitable reading of their comment. It is obvious we are talking about people that are already physically capable of riding a bike and are discussing a specific distance for a commute.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by rectang on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @03:31PM (#29167056)
Well, that comment is quite absolute in its assessment of a five mile e-bike commute as "trivial". It brooks no exceptions even for stoplights or congested traffic conditions. It is not at all obvious to me what assumptions I am supposed to make when reading it, and its ancestor comments do not establish context as to what assumptions to make either.

Even so, I tried to find common ground by merely softening the "trivial" language to "often doable" rather than contradicting. Because clearly it will sometimes be "trivial".

So, I disagree with your assessment of "uncharitable". And I am taken aback that there is so much bitter contention over this issue when it seems to me as though the important thing is that e-bikes have made commutes much easier in general.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by jeffbee on Monday November 08, 2021 @08:09PM (#29156476)
> bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks

Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders.

https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:22PM (#29156961)
In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners.

For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by johnwalkr on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:50PM (#29157153)
I think this is North American centric. In Asia and Europe housing to job centres is probably closer on average due to zoning. There’s less separation of “suburban housing areas” and “working areas”. There’s also less separation to shopping, etc so bikes are more feasible in general.

For these reason and I’m sure others, bicycles for commuting are more popular outside of North America.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ben_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @04:24AM (#29159425)
> but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks.

Perhaps in some places (where the major newspapers are?), but there area I grew up in has residential, industrial, and commercial all mixed up in a way that solves that issue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276

(Likewise Berlin, though Berlin also has much better public transport).

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by stavros on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @05:26AM (#29159845)
I think the zoning thing is more of a "US vs other places" issue.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by ben_w on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:32AM (#29160862)
I was thinking that at first and was originally going to suggest that, then I realised there’s a similar stereotype in the UK despite the mixed land use.
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by slt2021 on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:10PM (#29156880)
i heard that in US living in downtown is for poor people, and rich people prefer slrawling suburbs
Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by zdragnar on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:40PM (#29157444)
I saw an article the other day about a woman in California who rents a studio apartment (i.e. no dedicated bedroom) for $1900 a month, and was worried it would jump up to the usual $2,300 a month after the covid special pricing ended.

Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, or a nicely remodeled house with a small yard and river views in a town if you prefer. Or, with enough for a minimum down payment saved up, you could also buy a small house on 5 acres in a forest.

Granted, you'll pay more for owning a car, but... deciding between studio, or a prime house for $300 less per month, and the car doesn't sound too unreasonable.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by dragonwriter on Monday November 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#29157499)
> Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land,

Probably do that in rural CA, too (certainly you can get a nice single family home in many CA suburbs), and not be as far (but probably still too far) from the job the individual in question has that enables paying $2,000/mo in the first place. And similar work closer (to either rural CA or the upper Midwest) would pay less.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by zdragnar on Monday November 08, 2021 @11:15PM (#29157669)
Eh, most people near me commute less than an hour to a metro area with pretty much any job you could want available, if you didn't like what nearby jobs were paying. I'm not quite rural, but not suburbia either (nearest burb is 15 minutes of driving once you get to the highway).

If you went really rural, you would be able to get much more for your money.

Re:The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down by nradov on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:41PM (#29157082)
That was the stereotypical pattern for decades, but gentrification has somewhat reversed it in first tier cities. Families with small children do still tend to move out to the suburbs in search of better quality schools and more living space.