News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by valine on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:55PM (#28908478)
Epic update. Crazy fast chips, 120hz, mini LED, more ports, 64 gigs of ram. It's literally everything you could want in a new MacBook Pro.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by actusual on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:59PM (#28908621)
Took away the ports just to bring 'em back and play the hero. Apple playing 5d chess.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by barelysapient on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:08PM (#28908867)
I'm guessing this has to do with Johnny Ive's departure. He was notorious for design over function.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by notatoad on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:48PM (#28909731)
i'm guessing it has to do with the new M1 chips and their great power efficiency. back with the intel chips, an SD card slot or HDMI port consumed valuable internal real estate that could have been filled with battery instead, and filling it with battery was a better trade-off for most people.

with the new chips, they can comfortably sacrifice some battery size.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by eugeniub on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:50PM (#28914348)
Disagree. 2016 15" MBP was 4.0 pounds. 2019 16" MBP was 4.3 pounds. New 16" MBP is 4.5 pounds. Apple simply decided in 2016 to shrink the size and weight by removing ports and other things, and then to increase the size and weight by bringing them back.

Personally I'm surprised they didn't decide to keep the same weight by shrinking the battery. Not that many people absolutely need a 21 hour battery life, though it is nice.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by martinald on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:01PM (#28913394)
Pretty sure the batteries are bigger in the new ones vs the Intel ones, at least in capacity (6000mAh vs 5000mAh). I imagine they are the same physical size; if not bigger.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by brookside on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @11:58AM (#28919589)
Apple isn't sacrificing any battery size on the 16" at least. 100-watt-hour is the standard max size for TSA.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by systemvoltage on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:19PM (#28909133)
Him and Steve were a great combo keeping each in check. Ive should have left a long time ago.

He is now designing at Ferrari: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ferrari-hires-former-apple-desi...

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by corey_moncure on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:36PM (#28909507)
The new and improved Ferrari design rumored to include:

- Removal of the brake pedal since you should only need one input to control things

- The gas inlet port relocated to a more aesthetically pleasing location in the very center of the undercarriage

- Total width of the car down to a svelte and sexy 3.5 feet because the thinner it looks the better it is

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by tezza on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:55PM (#28909867)
There is no steering wheel, simply a flat panel where you swipe to steer.

There is 3D Touch where a long press on the steering screen lets you set cruise control

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by bduerst on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:01PM (#28911672)
Steering wheels are available but sold separately.

You have to attach them via dongle, but the only input port is in the trunk.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by strombofulous on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:06PM (#28911753)
> The gas inlet port relocated to a more aesthetically pleasing location in the very center of the undercarriage

Why is this a problem? You shouldn't be trying to drive it while it's fueling anyway

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cassianoleal on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:08PM (#28912975)
> - The gas inlet port relocated to a more aesthetically pleasing location in the very center of the undercarriage

It also requires the car to be on the front wheels, with the back awkwardly suspended by the fuel hose.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by R6 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:51AM (#28914973)
You joke but the new Ferrari has capacitive buttons everywhere. Even the rear view mirror adjustment buttons are capacitive. Whether this is Ive's doing, I don't know.

https://dealerimages.dealereprocess.com/image/upload/v157591...

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nsriv on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:00PM (#28910812)
You joke but the new Ferrari Roma has touch buttons on the steering wheel and the UX has been widely panned.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by bmitc on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:03PM (#28910858)
As far as I understand, he was absent from about 2015 on. There was an article, which I can't find right now, that discussed the mess this left the design team in. He basically retired to his home, and he would require the design team to come present to him at some local place (he wouldn't go to Apple). Then he'd give zero feedback. (This is from my recollection of the article.)

Pretty telling since that was sort of the heyday of Apple's devices having all sorts of conflicting designs.

Edit: I think this is the article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/jony-ive-is-departing-apple-but...

With a summary at: https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/01/jony-ives-departu...

Furthermore, it's hard to imagine Ive and Ferrari gelling. Ive's style is about as diametrically opposed from Italian design as I can think of. I characterize his design as character-less, something Italian designers don't go for.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by bombcar on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:23PM (#28913112)
He may have been hired to sit in his home and not design anything - for the name only.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by bmitc on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:57PM (#28913752)
I get the feeling that it's part ego from Ive and part Cook actually not caring about design as Ive mentioned.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by BitwiseFool on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:06PM (#28910047)
Johnny Ive wanted USB-C to be 'The One Port to Rule Them All'. That didn't work out for a number of reasons.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:47PM (#28913705)
As someone that didn't like originally giving up my ports and thought Jony Ive was a bit too overzealous with thinness, I actually don't think he was wrong.

USB-C is pretty great, and the sooner we shift things over the better. When I bough a MBP with only USB-C ports I just bought a little dongle thing that slots in to my two ports on the side and gives me USB-A, HDMI, SD and MicroSD. I've used the thing around 20 times and its never been a burden because I carry it with me in my laptops case.

At this point I actually see adding the other ports back as a step backwards. HDMI is old and aggressively large in 2021. My 3 devices that use an SD card actually use a microSD card so I need to carry around an adapter anyway.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by hellbannedguy on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @06:50AM (#28916751)
I have never understood this push for light, and thin.

Even twenty years ago I wanted just the best features in a laptop.

Give me a quality machine, at a reasonable price; and I would drag around a boat anchor.

I also wanted repairability, and room for future upgrades inside the laptop, but gave up on that one.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Gigachad on Monday October 18, 2021 @11:50PM (#28914666)
It almost has, it's just playing the long long game. People don't replace their monitors, tvs and projectors constantly but eventually they will all be bundled in with usb-c cables. Last time I was in an office, every cable had a usb-c dongle stuck to it permanently.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by vegai_ on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @03:29AM (#28915696)
I totally loved USB-C being the only port(s) on the device and thoroughly miss it on my Thinkpads.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kelnos on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:19PM (#28909144)
> Apple playing 5d chess.

I think you're giving them too much credit. This is Apple's way of admitting they were wrong.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by xdfgh1112 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:23PM (#28909219)
5d chess is usually only ever said in a sarcastic context, so the implication is that Apple didn't plan this at all
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Aperocky on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:54PM (#28912842)
Well at least they admitted it. If they doubled down with the butterfly keyboard and touchbar crap they would rapidly die to a better designed linux capable book. or just become one of the many commercial vendors.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ashtonkem on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:53PM (#28909821)
More to the point, they now have someone else designing these laptops.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lostlogin on Saturday October 23, 2021 @05:16PM (#28972355)
It would be interesting to read the former designers take on the new machines.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by jnwatson on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:02PM (#28908706)
The worst part is that everybody copies them. Now, two USB-C ports, one of which is used for power, is standard.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by input_sh on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:08PM (#28908882)
I far prefer just plugging in one USB hub than plugging in like five different cables. I have a Thinkpad with loads of ports, but I just use two (one for a wireless mouse that's always plugged in).
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ccouzens on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:16PM (#28909066)
I've got a reasonably cheap screen with USBC input. The screen is the hub.

It's great, as I only need to plug in one cable and my laptop is powered, connected to both my external monitors (displayport mst) and USB peripherals.

It's also a reason I asked not to have a Mac when I changed jobs. The Intel Macs and the older m1s don't support MST.

I wonder if the new m1s finally support it?

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ascagnel_ on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:35PM (#28909490)
MST would work correctly _in Windows_ on my last-gen MBP, so I think it may be a limitation of macOS. Apple has only ever officially supported MST over Thunderbolt, never over USB or DisplayPort.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kelnos on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:21PM (#28909177)
I think the usefulness of a bunch of different ports/port types is for when you're on the go. A hub/dock is of course way more convenient when you're at your main workspace. But if you're traveling or even just on your couch, having extra ports makes things much more convenient.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Spooky23 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:27PM (#28910352)
I like the hub/dock lifestyle as well but… USB-C/Thunderbolt is complex and there are many gotchas.

As more folks returned to the office, we get lots of issues with shitty network and other drivers on docks.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by w0m on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:15PM (#28909058)
Issue with my rMBP is if i have too much on said single port; the laptop overheats and crashes. I end up with all 4 ports plugged in anyway to get decent performance.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by emerongi on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:41PM (#28909588)
It's good to have multiple options. I lug my laptop around and (rarely) need to connect multiple devices to it and sometimes I run out of ports. At home, I use a dock and the ports are useless, but that doesn't mean that I don't like the option to have more ports on the machine.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fotta on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:20PM (#28909158)
the great thing with this update is that you can still do that :)
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cptskippy on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:05PM (#28908788)
I prefer USB-C with PD to all of the vendor specific ports except maybe MagSafe.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by TulliusCicero on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:08PM (#28908873)
Same, but there still usually aren't enough ports in total. Looks like the new Macbook Pros have 2 ports on one side, 1 port on the other. At least keeping 2 on each side would've been much better.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by masklinn on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:22PM (#28909191)
I had the same thought, if you're charging on the right side you don't have a USB port left there.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cptskippy on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:02PM (#28920468)
That is the biggest problem with USB-C IMO. The ports can all have different capabilities and it's not always obvious what they can do.

For the most part though it seems they've settled on Thunderbolt, Charge, and bog standard ports. Are there any that do Thunderbolt + Charge?

It's a shame about the name because the Thunderbolt icon would be perfect to indicate a charge port. Instead we're stuck with a little plug icon that is usually isn't discernable.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by encryptluks2 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:19PM (#28909142)
That doesn't mean that people are copying them. Thunderbolt 3 adopted the USB-C format. Until USB-C, USB wasn't capable of delivering the power required for charging. It made logical sense to switch charging to USB-C. If anything, Apple copied USB-C.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pseudalopex on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:55PM (#28910743)
I think the point was 2 ports is 1 port in practice. And so few ports used to be rare.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by vegai_ on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @03:31AM (#28915705)
Sadly no. My new Thinkpad has only one USB-C port and it's used for power. So I cannot use the USB-C port while charging. And it has three USB-As and a freaking HDMI.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nfriedly on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:07PM (#28908837)
Maybe next year's refresh will have USB-A ports again!
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by gjsman-1000 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:14PM (#28909033)
Apple, according to the rumors, considered even bringing back USB-A but decided against it.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ghaff on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:38PM (#28910499)
It would be nice if they could have squeezed one in again so you don't need to pull out a dongle/hub every time you want to connect a "legacy" USB device when traveling. But not really a realistic wish and wouldn't have wished they took anything out to accommodate it.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:55PM (#28913737)
What legacy USB devices are you plugging in while traveling?

Traveling is when I'm least likely to do that. And regardless, I travel with this[1] anyway, so no problemo.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Purgo-Adapter-2018-2016-Delivery-Thun...

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nfriedly on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:37PM (#28914281)
I'm not the one you asked, but heres a few things that I might need to use a USB-A port for when traveling:

* My yubikey to perform 2-factor auth

* The checkra1n jailbreak for my work iPhone (I do some iOS dev and occasionally need a jailbroken device. For whatever reason, it doesn't work with a USB-C-to-lightning cable, it has to use a USB-A-to-lightning cable + a dongle.)

* A USB flash drive for transferring a presentation or whatever. (I know these come in USB-C variants, but I don't have one.)

* Charging all the random things that charge from USB-A ports.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @11:03PM (#28914415)
Gotcha. Well except for the weird checkra1n thing, everything else is easily migrated to USB-C. To help with that migration, I highly recommend this[1] cable (or one similar to it) as a technological Swiss Army Knife.

I made the transition at the beginning of the year to "USB-C everything I can" and it's very liberating. Ironically the only devices I have left that are not USB-C are my iPhone and AirPods (and my Kindle, but they just released a USB-C model which I will soon use to replace my current one).

[1] https://www.amazon.com/SDBAUX-USB-Compatible-Electronic-Tabl...

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nfriedly on Monday October 18, 2021 @11:30PM (#28914566)
Yea, fair enough. I am generally migrating in that direction, but probably a bit slower than you.

Looks like a handy cable.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ghaff on Monday October 18, 2021 @11:42PM (#28914614)
As I said not something I could reasonably expect or that Apple should reasonably have done. Just another set of changes to make/stuff to buy.

In practice I’ll probably mostly just deal with for a while by carrying a hub with me.

Of course I have a ton of other things I’ll home but that’s easier dealt with using various usb hubs.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by thallium205 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:45AM (#28914947)
Yubikey has a USB-C version with NFC now.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by colinmhayes on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:14PM (#28909036)
Would USB-A fit in a macbook? No way for the air right?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nfriedly on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:21PM (#28909172)
I mean, Apple gets to decide how thick the laptop is, so they could make it work if they wanted to. Didn't the original Macbook Air have a USB-A port?

Also, HDMI ports are approximately the same height as USB Type-A ports, so presumably it would fit in this design.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by bart_spoon on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:24PM (#28909247)
> Didn't the original Macbook Air have a USB-A port?

It did

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by elzbardico on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:28PM (#28909333)
I am happy if USB-A dies.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lostlogin on Saturday October 23, 2021 @05:18PM (#28972375)
For me C can die. Having multiple specs on one plug and various cables that all behave differently is ridiculous.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kllrnohj on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:59PM (#28908602)
But that notch is kind of a really ugly blight on the face of an otherwise good looking update. Especially since it's lacking faceid or something equivalent to windows hello
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:28PM (#28909344)
Go back to when the iPhone introduced the notch. There were so many comments just like yours but when was the last time you heard anyone say anything about it? It gets a lot of attention because it's quite visible — literally right in front of your eyes — but it's also in an area which is dead space most of the time and the most common scenario where it isn't is full screen video conferencing, when you'll be glad for the better quality.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kllrnohj on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:46PM (#28909686)
> but when was the last time you heard anyone say anything about it?

Literally during the latest iPhone announcement where Apple was even timid about showing off the front of the display or talking about the smaller notch, as everyone mocked how dated the notch looked.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:54PM (#28909837)
Was it really “everyone”, or just a few very online people in your social media? The sold out pre-orders suggest this was not as universal as you're portraying it — for example, looking at I see a note that it was smaller and you have to go 4 pages in before there's a single comment complaining about it, and that's in a community which loves to critique Apple designs!

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/apple-makes-the-ipho...

Again, not saying this is nothing or that I love it, only that the buying public does not seem to feel anywhere near as strongly about it and I've never heard anyone complaining about it on a regular basis. Most people get used to it, if they're curious they probably understand that it's for the camera, and get on with life. I'd be quite surprised if this did not follow a very similar trajectory — especially since the display is larger so you could black out the entire top of the screen in software and still have more screen real estate than the previous model.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kllrnohj on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:57PM (#28909904)
People buying a device doesn't mean they liked literally every aspect of the device and have no complaints about any aspect of it.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:06PM (#28910051)
No, but it definitely means that it's not the big deal which overheated rhetoric in forums often implies. Experienced users are often extremely reactionary and wildly overstate the impact of highly visible changes but in most cases if you actually survey their usage later they've almost always gotten used to it.

In this case, the 16" screen gained ~0.2" diagonally and 314px extra resolution. Those extra pixels mean that even with the notch you're going to see more on the screen than you could before and in my experience that's far more likely to be the part which shapes people's impression of a new device.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Razengan on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @07:56PM (#28925234)
> People buying a device doesn't mean they liked literally every aspect of the device and have no complaints about any aspect of it.

10 people complaining online doesn’t mean that all the millions of purchasers dislike it too.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Gigachad on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:01AM (#28914733)
I like the notch. It makes the phone look different to every other glass slab on the market.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by satvikpendem on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:47PM (#28910643)
Why are you moving the goal posts? At first you asked whether "anyone" talked about it, the parent gave you a reasonable answer, and now you're talking about "everyone." Accept that some people do talk about the notch, however small the minority opinion is.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:17PM (#28911079)
What I should have said is anyone talking about it unprompted — there’s always someone talking about any design decision but you see the average priorities based on when people talk about them unprompted. People complain about the Touch Bar or the old keyboards a lot, or the sided charging / performance issues, but the notch seems much rarer to hear unprompted complaints about.

That doesn’t mean it’s zero but it suggests that the compromise was actually quite reasonable, even if there are a small number of people who vocally disagree.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by minusf on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @04:23AM (#28915985)
have you noticed how screenshots and background images for iphones marketing material is chosen so that the notch is almost/totally invisible? it borders on false advertising. it's a design company, they know the most how ugly it is.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:11PM (#28919786)
Do you have some examples? Looking at https://www.apple.com/iphone/ the notch is emphasized on the icons at the top of the page and the only images where it’s not clearly visible are the ones showing the camera on the back of the phone.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by jld on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:34PM (#28909461)
I think the notch works ok on the iPhone as iOS is specifically designed with it in mind. The small spots abreast of the notch are fine for battery meter, clock, and reception bars.

The Mac notch is right in the middle of the toolbar. I have lots of applications that use that space for menus and will be curious how cumbersome it will be now that we need to literally navigate around it.

Will we need to move the mouse down to get around the notch, or will the cursor be allowed to go under the notch?

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:48PM (#28909719)
In the screenshots shown, most of the apps do not have menubars which extend to that space at that display resolution — this could definitely be more of an issue for people who increase the size for accessibility reasons.

From the full-screen screenshots, it appears that it's simply black across the top of the screen unless the application has been designed to support it. That looked like the regular Safari developer tools with an unbroken bar slightly lower down in the video.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by BearOso on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:35PM (#28910459)
My thought is that it’s a pro laptop. Does it really need a built-in webcam? How many people never use them or even tape over them? I could live without it, and if it’s actively providing a detriment, that’s all the more reason to get rid of it.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ghaff on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:41PM (#28910563)
You mean like (I'm guessing but I think it's a safe guess) the vast majority of "pro" users who videoconference? The opinion that a laptop maker should take out a webcam in 2021 is... interesting.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by vbezhenar on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @10:01AM (#28918159)
I never ever used webcam in my life and I'd gladly replaced it with proper display.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Razengan on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:00PM (#28925255)
Yes, they should make a camless model just for you.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by IkmoIkmo on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:52PM (#28910704)
Agreed. In fact, I think I'll mind it less. On my iPhone the only time it looks funny is in landscape, otherwise it just sits in the top-bar. On a laptop that isn't an issue.

I think for me it'll fade away, especially with a dark-mode UI.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by soheil on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:20PM (#28911120)
> On my iPhone the only time it looks funny is in landscape,

Laptops are effectively always in landscape.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by zlsa on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:40PM (#28912134)
But the notch on the MacBook Pros is on top, not on the left.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lostlogin on Saturday October 23, 2021 @05:20PM (#28972397)
When I use it in portrait, it’s on the side.

And yes, sarcasm.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by wayneftw on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:34PM (#28909454)
There are literally still so many comments just like that and plenty of people who simply won't buy a phone that has a notch. The comments never stopped.

The screenshots showing application menus almost hitting the notch are ugly af. I'm sure that there are applications that have even more menus than Photoshop or Premiere.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by acdha on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:41PM (#28909597)
> There are literally still so many comments just like that and plenty of people who simply won't buy a phone that has a notch. The comments never stopped.

… and yet, sales have continued to be extremely high, which suggests that is a self-selected group of extremely vocal opponents rather than a real market trend.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by wayneftw on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:05PM (#28910041)
...as if the notch is the only deciding factor.

I hate the notch, but I'll still buy iPhones all day long if my only other choice is to buy products with questionable privacy from an advertising company versus dealing with Apple's shitty designs.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by aseipp on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:11PM (#28910981)
That's their point, it's literally self selection: people who do not care about the notch are not going to write comments about it, and people who care are never going to shut up about it, giving an extremely poor window for understanding how much it actually matters or how it impacts real use. That complaints like this are self-selective is both well known and the OP's entire point; it's amazing how much effort all the replies seem to be going through to not understand this.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kcb on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:52PM (#28913323)
Notches on cell phones are so 2018. Apple is really behind in that area.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by stavros on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:03PM (#28908736)
I guess we always have the option of showing black on that part of the screen and effectively getting the old display back (ie a huge bezel).
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nsxwolf on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:08PM (#28908881)
You get more usable screen though. I am curious how legacy apps with way-too-many menus will display with the split.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by agloeregrets on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:26PM (#28910333)
The split is in the global menu bar which is owned by Apple design wise. It will be interesting but I imagine it will work fine, also don't forget early OSX builds had a centered Apple Logo with logic to handle this.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by thebean11 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:48PM (#28909717)
They'll display the same way they did on the smaller screens, or with lower DPI settings enabled I'm guessing.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nowherebeen on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:11PM (#28910985)
My only concern is if it will distract me from work with it always sticking out.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ssijak on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:00PM (#28908643)
it is useful because it will be on the middle of the status bar. After 2 hours my guess nobody would notice anything weird. Like with the iphones, but this one actually makes sense.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by threatofrain on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:02PM (#28908708)
It conflicts with existing Apple design decisions, such as Safari in full-screen with the compact tabs, or Apple Calendar in full screen mode. I wonder how that will work.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by alexandrius on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:11PM (#28908963)
Full Screen apps do not use notch space as seen in their full screen demos
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by dont__panic on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:08PM (#28910068)
So they're not really "full screen" any more? Why even bother with the feature, and just switch it to "maximize" instead?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Gigachad on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:04AM (#28914743)
They are as big as pre notch. It's just now the toolbar has moved in to a space which was once black bezel. Full screen is still useful for hiding the toolbar for a distraction free view.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by threatofrain on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:09PM (#28910951)
Except for purposes of immersion in games and movies, I might just always have the top menu bar visible if the treatment for many full screen apps is just to have an opaque black bar with no content.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by airstrike on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:05PM (#28908783)
I don't think Apple really designed Safari to be ordinarily used in full-screen with compact tabs.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by oblio on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:18PM (#28909122)
People will get used to it... but they could have just shifted the screen down, using that chin. For example there are plenty Windows laptops with 3:2 aspect rations, where they use up all the vertical space.

They could have just moved everything down for IMO a slightly better design.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by jlokier on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:09PM (#28908892)
It won't be in the middle of the status bar when running anything full screen.

Some people run applications full screen most of the time. For example the browser, text editor, chat, etc.

I wonder if it automatically inserts a black bar in those situations.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by BluSyn on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:23PM (#28909227)
It does.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cmckn on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:50PM (#28914350)
I agree that the notch is a bit large to just be a 1080p webcam. I don’t hate it though, aesthetically. If the next iteration doesn’t have Face ID, I’ll be a bit annoyed. Seriously considering trading in my M1 MacBook Air for the 14”. Tim Cook really knows how to drain my accounts!
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by awill on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:01PM (#28908671)
sure. But with video conferencing being a new part of the job, it's likely a good tradeoff
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kllrnohj on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:07PM (#28908841)
https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/

Looking at the product photos it looks like they black-bar the entire top of the display when anything is full-screen? So that seems to make the notch even more intrusive as you lose out on all the screen real-estate next to it when something is fullscreen.

Or rather, the menu bar is now a permanent bezel that nothing else can occupy?

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:20PM (#28909166)
> you lose out on all the screen real-estate next to it when something is fullscreen

That would have been bezel in a notchless design.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kllrnohj on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:45PM (#28909664)
The bezel wouldn't have been as big. The resulting "fake bezel" is larger than necessary to house the camera, as it needs to shift where the camera is relative to the physical dimensions of the display and the border that it needs.

Just see literally any other laptop that has both a fairly small bezel and fits a webcam in it, like the Dell XPS 13. The camera in the macbook may be better and require a larger lens assembly as a result, but it's surely not as big as the bezel + notch itself requires.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Gigachad on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:05AM (#28914752)
From the picture, it looks about the same. The top bezel is huge on the 2020 macbook.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ilikehurdles on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:38PM (#28909526)
As someone who always hides the menu bar, though, having a notch is going to kill being able to switch tabs in Chrome, search in Outlook, or broadly, use any controls at the top of a window in maximized mode. I’m guessing the hidden menu bar is going away on this machine because it would break usability of all other apps.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by andy_ppp on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:14PM (#28910156)
Someone will write an app that blacks this bit out for you and you can carry with your life like an Englishman in a Parisian restaurant…
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by julienb_sea on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:45PM (#28910624)
The notch is an explicit design choice, it's visible and iconic. It differentiates the new models and you can make a reasonable argument that space is always used by the status bar in macos currently, so this is a net improvement without question.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by rstupek on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:56PM (#28908544)
And they got rid of the touch bar which everyone dumped heavily on
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by awill on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:00PM (#28908650)
I love how they boasted about bringing back the regular keyboard. Even though they're solving a problem them created.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by rstupek on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:01PM (#28908681)
Damned if they do, damned if they don't? Sounds to me like they listened and changed course.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by airstrike on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:03PM (#28908739)
I think the parent comment is taking issue with how they frame it, not with the actual decision
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pb7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:58PM (#28909915)
What are they supposed to say? "We're sorry we tried something new and it didn't work out?"
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by airstrike on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:29PM (#28910381)
"We listened to you and brought back the functions keys–and made them full size!"

That's just my half-assed stab at it. Presumably someone whose job is to write these things for a living can improve it meaningfully while maintaining the essence.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pb7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:33PM (#28910432)
They said pretty much this minus the "we listened to you" part. I don't know why you need a pat on the back. Are you going to send them a thank you card for every thing they do right?

It's a company dude, Apple is not your buddy. They're not listening to you, they're listening to market research and usage analytics.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by airstrike on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:43PM (#28912758)
Listening to market research = listening to users.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by brynjolf on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @05:10AM (#28916232)
They are trying to sell Me a product though
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by markdog12 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:21PM (#28910263)
Yes?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pb7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:33PM (#28910438)
Why?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by markdog12 on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:05PM (#28912402)
Because it's the truth?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kelnos on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:23PM (#28909209)
Yes, but instead of acting like bringing back the regular keyboard is an amazing achievement, they could instead just admit that the touch bar wasn't a good idea. But admitting errors is not the Apple Way.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pb7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:59PM (#28909932)
It was a fine idea, just like 3D Touch on iPhones, that just didn't get enough use for the complexity. It was a gamble and didn't pay off.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:48PM (#28910653)
The difference to 3D touch is that they removed existing features. I wonder what if they keep physical F keys along with Touch Bar.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by thuccess129 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:30PM (#28909360)
Still have not solved the tinytiny inverted Tee arrow keys arrangement. Need to improve on the former IBM's 6-key cluster below the right shift key, or arrange full keysized arrows in a cross pattern breaking out of the rectangle at the lower right corner.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by sxg on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:15PM (#28909047)
How are they supposed to frame it? “Sorry we messed up the keyboard. We’re putting a regular one back in.” Doesn’t seem like great phrasing for launching a new product.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by xdfgh1112 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:30PM (#28909369)
I'd prefer that. But I guess that's why I'm not an apple customer
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by markdog12 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:23PM (#28910277)
Seems fine to me.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Grustaf on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:37PM (#28909513)
They didn't boast. Saying many people prefer hardware keys is closer to admitting a mistake than boasting.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by RandallBrown on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:08PM (#28908865)
They were "boasting" about making the function keys taller.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by reaperducer on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:55PM (#28909865)
Which makes sense because some of the earlier MacBook keyboards with physical keys, like the one I'm using right now, had half-height keys.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by yellow_postit on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:57PM (#28908567)
If you listen closely you can hear the IT procurement IOs being opened up en masse.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by throwoutway on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:03PM (#28908716)
Looks like they only “got rid” of the Touch Bar for the more expensive model. Really trolling their customers now
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Toutouxc on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:41PM (#28910556)
Well, the 13" Pro already has the M1 chip and will probably be gradually replaced by the 14", so there's no reason to update it. Where's the trolling?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by 1270018080 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:21PM (#28909181)
No they didn't? The 14 and 16 inch don't have the touchbar.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by out_of_protocol on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:00PM (#28909958)
Exactly. No touch bar and cost more money
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cassianoleal on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:19PM (#28913070)
The Air doesn't have a touch bar and costs less money. It's also a perfectly good -- no, sorry: an excellent laptop for most applications, including development.

I suspect the 13" M1 Pro was probably just something to cater for those who were skeptical about a fanless laptop since no one really knew back then how well these machines would perform. Now that the M1s have been out for a while and no one seems to be complaining about the Air, they can drop the M1 Pro.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Alex3917 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:34PM (#28909473)
> It's literally everything you could want in a new MacBook Pro.

If it doesn't run VirtualBox then I can't use it to write code, so why does it even matter if it's faster?

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by plandis on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:11PM (#28911817)
> why does it even matter if it's faster?

Have you considered that plenty of people don’t need VirtualBox to write code?

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by tornato7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:53PM (#28911571)
Maybe you should be questioning why you need VirtualBox to write code
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by krono on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:43PM (#28912186)
Security, provisioning, dependency management, infosec, etc. the list of reasons for someone to develop in a VM is endless.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by minusf on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @05:49AM (#28916444)
yes. also vbox is not the only way to run VMs
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by solarmist on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:28PM (#28910362)
Parallels supports linux VMs. https://kb.parallels.com/128445

You could use that now or wait for virtual box to catch up (I assume).

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:58PM (#28913758)
I'm writing this comment from Ubuntu running on my M1 Macbook Pro, so...?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Tempest1981 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:25AM (#28914859)
How is the GPU performance?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @11:19PM (#28926371)
No idea really, not sure I've done anything GPU-heavy on Ubuntu.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by idle_zealot on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:55PM (#28909858)
You can run Linux with UTM.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Alex3917 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:08PM (#28910071)
Can I keep my existing vagrant / Ansible setup? Or, basically, what would I need to use in order to provision the instances?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ArchOversight on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:28PM (#28910359)
You can keep your ansible. Does vagrant support alternate providers for running VM's? Then yes, you can keep your vagrant too.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Alex3917 on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:18PM (#28912535)
It looks like Vagrant doesn't work yet with UTM: https://github.com/hashicorp/vagrant/issues/12518

Conceptually I'd love one of these machine, but realistically if I can't develop locally in an Ubuntu VM then I might as well just wait a year or two to buy one until that's possible. I'm not going to use Docker, and realistically I have zero interest in spending multiple weeks rewriting all of my provisioning scripts.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cassianoleal on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:22PM (#28913108)
Vagrant has a QEMU driver, which is what UTM uses anyway. I can't say it will do what you need the way you want but I suspect it's possible to get there.

QEMU can virtualise arm and emulate x86.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Alex3917 on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:44PM (#28913679)
Thanks, I'll check this out! I just need to run Python on Ubuntu, so hopefully that isn't too crazy of a use case.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nyadesu on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:37PM (#28911363)
You can always use docker
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Alex3917 on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:49PM (#28911526)
Docker doesn’t really work on Mac. Like it technically runs, but just barely. Because it uses containerization inside virtualization, it pegs the CPU just to run a hello world app and completely drains the battery in 30 min. Oh and the fans sound like an airplane taking off.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cmckn on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:56PM (#28914380)
I don’t know anyone at work who would agree with this. Docker is fine on macOS, honestly always has been. Sure, it will show up in Activity Monitor, but so will any other software that is actually doing something. I have never seen my CPU peg because of Docker, and I regularly run large stacks, use Earthly for all my builds, etc. The overhead of the VM + containerd is truly not that large.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by astrange on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @07:43AM (#28917045)
CPU % in top and similar tools isn't a great proxy for energy usage anyway, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lkbm on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:50AM (#28917508)
Docker is terrible on Macs, but I used to run Docker+vscode+Firefox+Brave+Slack+misc. I'd run into issues on my 2015 MBP from time to time, but on the 2019 models it was fine.

gulp.watch would often eat an entire core, and stuff in Docker ran slower than on Linux, but my laptop could keep up. vscode didn't lag and Firefox ran just fine—all with 5+ Docker containers running.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Gigachad on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:07AM (#28914769)
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have about 7 containers running the full work app and I can't hear any fan noise and the laptop is running cold.

This thing is running Rails, mysql, elastic search, redis, mongodb, and workers inside docker. As well as nodejs, vscode, a handful of electron apps all at the same time and the laptop is cold.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by jordanthoms on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:39PM (#28912123)
Not my experience at all, you must have something weird in your setup. For a full dev environment I'm running containers with postgres, cockroachdb, several ruby apps, kafka, some JVM based stuff, and clickhouse and it does hit battery life a bit but certainly not pegging the CPU, actually it's using less than Slack...
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by cassianoleal on Monday October 18, 2021 @07:24PM (#28913123)
Not my experience either on a fanless M1 Air. I can run lots of containers without it perceptibly heating up or slowing down. Battery life does suffer but I can still usually get at least 4-5h of solid programming like this.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by worrycue on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:15PM (#28909054)
> micro LED

Mini-LED backlighting. It’s still an IPS panel. MicroLED is something else entirely. Had me excited for a second.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by can16358p on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:56PM (#28908528)
Yup. This was more than many of us demanded TBH.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by gjsman-1000 on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:15PM (#28909041)
Did anyone miss the headphone jack now supports low-impedance headphones?

No reason they had to do that - just pure icing on the cake.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Toutouxc on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:43PM (#28910595)
High-impedance headphones. Driving low-impedance headphones is easy.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by simonebrunozzi on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:20PM (#28909169)
Yes, but let's see the price tag for an M1 Max with 64 GB is, and then we can rejoice. Or not.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by superfamicom on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:40PM (#28909567)
$4,298.65 in WA after tax, free shipping.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by dymk on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:54PM (#28909827)
Sounds like it's time to make a trip down to Oregon
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by indemnity on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:23PM (#28909218)
Same price as the i9 it replaced, no?
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by johncalvinyoung on Monday October 18, 2021 @09:53PM (#28914023)
5600M SKUs were more expensive than equivalent M1 Max options.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by anamexis on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:41PM (#28909590)
$3899.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by nico_h on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:18PM (#28910209)
I’m so impressed by the screen but it’s too un-ergonomic for me that I’m sad instead. Would have been so nice if they had released 27” desktop screens to connect with these finally wonderful laptops.

It’s not like a huge majority of office workers have been staying at home or working from the office for the last year and half or something. The coffee shop surfing, working in the plane / train must have taken a dive.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by wlll on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @04:43AM (#28916076)
Just buy a non-apple screen? I run 3 Samsung 4K screens on my MBP.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by _the_inflator on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:02PM (#28908688)
What a beast! I already feel sorry for my MacBook Pro 13 with M1. Left in the dust essentially.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Joeri on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:01PM (#28909976)
The new models are a lot more expensive though. And the entry level model of the 14 inch has an 8 core variant of the m1 pro, which probably will not perform that much higher than the 8 core m1 in the 13 inch.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by other_herbert on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:01PM (#28909973)
same for my m1 air! :D... but then I remembered that apple does trade ins! :D
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Aperocky on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:58PM (#28912878)
M1 air and not at all feeling this way.

The original M1 pro had a touchbar, that alone make it suck. But the M1 is still thinner by a mile and has no fan!

Many people overlook this but no fan means no dirt will get into the chasis. That is HUGE.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by vishnugupta on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:45PM (#28910610)
I guess M1 Air is targeted towards execs, business crowd, marketers and such who's primary day job is not into creating, not something that'd require Pro level capabilities anyway.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by tornato7 on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:56PM (#28911611)
The M1 Air is the best laptop for the average casual laptop user (school, emails, photos, etc). The battery life alone makes it a huge upgrade over any Windows machine. I also love that it doesn't have any fans, side that's usually the first thing to go on any laptop. I expect to get years and years of good use out of the Air.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Aperocky on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:59PM (#28912886)
Or programmer. We don't need that much juice really.

If our stuff makes M1 runs slow ... It's probably poorly optimized code.

Of course game dev is exempt from this.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by raihansaputra on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:13PM (#28913490)
I already have an M1 Air, and I'm looking to buy the 14 MBP just for the display (working outdoors yay), battery life, and RAM (16GB + higher bandwith). There's enough horsepower on the M1 for me, not even noticeable compared to the i7 MBP 16.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by als0 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @05:46AM (#28916420)
The 14” has several hours less of battery than the M1 Air. Dealbreaker if I’m honest. https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/?modelList=MacBook-Air-M1,...
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by raihansaputra on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:47PM (#28925546)
That's.. interesting. Seems like the "wireless web" stat is really helped by the additional 2 efficiency cores on the Air, while the video stat is helped by the dedicated media silicon on the new Pro. Not to mention on what brightness (40% brightness on Pro is 100% brightness on air). Good to keep in mind.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by sharikous on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @02:58AM (#28915528)
Many types of programming require big resources these day. Training machine learning model is the classical example.

But also those who run multiple VMs at the same time.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by vishnugupta on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:11PM (#28920576)
> But also those who run multiple VMs at the same time.

I tried this route a few years ago but gave up out of sheer frustration. I wonder if it's improved now. At this point I'm more inclined to setup my local stack in AWS and be done with it. Like no local laptop testing at all.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:43PM (#28910596)
I wish they offer non mini-LED display option since developer don't need such quality. Apple need to break down "Pro".
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by ptmcc on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:49PM (#28910672)
Au contraire, as a developer staring at screens all day I think it's very important to invest in high quality displays
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by red2awn on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:14AM (#28915086)
As a developer, I think we should invest in big external monitor, not looking at a tiny 14in display, however nice it is.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @02:46AM (#28915463)
Agreed. Laptop form factor itself is also bad for ergonomics.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:01PM (#28910823)
Generally agree to invest to avoid eye stain, but this is overkill.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @09:00PM (#28913771)
How can you generally agree but then say this display is overkill? The previous displays were definitely not the peak of quality to avoid eye strain.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @09:33PM (#28913923)
To reduce eye strain, reducing glare is important so using non-reflective screen by sacrificing quality is better (or ideally eInk). XDR displays (and previous displays from Apple) are great for quality, but not fully optimized for reducing eye strain.

https://www.eizo.com/library/basics/10_ways_to_address_eye_f...

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lwouis on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:28AM (#28915152)
I would argue dynamic backlit screens are terrible for development actually. High contrast is intense on the eye.

I bought a QLED TV 3 years ago, and tried to use it as an external display for my laptop. It's painful to look at. You switch from a white window to a black one and the TV adjusts backlight dynamically and blasts your eyes. I would react by putting my hand in front on my eyes like if i had looked outside from inside a cave after getting used to the cave.

Something like e-ink would be best for office work indeed. Lighting is external so controlled by the user and in line with the rest of the room

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by phil294 on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @05:05AM (#28916205)
> High contrast is intense on the eye.

Is it really the contrast though? No contrast is sharper than blank and white, and reading a book is fine.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by lwouis on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @05:55AM (#28916483)
Sorry, I meant to say brightness contrast: high-end dynamic displays will turn off backlighting in black areas, and turn them all the way up in white areas.

Let's say your movie shows a full moon in the night. Looking at that moon on the screen is now like looking at a torchlight in the night in real life. The moon section of the screen is blasting high brightness right at your eyes.

This is what I meant. I tried doing office work on such a monitor, and quickly realize it's good for immersion, but terrible for office work, for which you want stable brightness.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by hunterb123 on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:39PM (#28912716)
Designers use MacBook pros too.

Everyone likes to have mobile workstation.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fomine3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @09:36PM (#28913936)
Yes this is excellent for designers, but here's also many developers.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by forsakenharmony on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:18PM (#28909107)
mini LED, not micro LED
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by valine on Monday October 18, 2021 @02:34PM (#28909458)
Yup my bad
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by NexRebular on Monday October 18, 2021 @03:40PM (#28910551)
Yet there still is no support for writing HFS (not plus) formatted floppies. Yeah, not really everything I could want...