News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by FabHK on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:29PM (#28120413)
TLDR:

> With modern engineering standards, there is no doubt that hydrogen could be made a safe lifting gas.

Disadvantages of hydrogen:

* burns (but only with sufficient oxygen, eg a mixture of air and 4% up to 75% hydrogen)

Advantages of hydrogen:

* lifts 8% more than helium (per volume). Not a huge difference, but not trivial for an airship

* costs 98.5% less than helium (!) (Airships have crashed because helium was too expensive to vent: safety valves on the USS Shenandoah were capped, 14 crew members lost their lives.)

> Airships are too slow for human travel

Too slow for transportation, maybe. But leisure travel? Imagine a one week air safari from Kilimandjaro and the Serengeti to Kruger Park. It could be awesome.

Edit to add:

(Leisure air travel/Safari is my own pipe dream. The article suggests cargo):

> If airships were to make a major comeback, it would be in cargo service.

> Cargo airships would need to be big—bigger than the Hindenburg. [...] ”’the lift-to-drag ratio, a critical parameter in aircraft performance, gets better as the airship gets bigger)

> Ginormous airships require a lot of lifting gas—perhaps a million cubic meters

> FAA has discouraged the return of the airship in the use case that makes the most sense

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dr_dshiv on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:19PM (#28123028)
I completely agree with the leisure air travel scenario for airships. It would be incredible anywhere. Massive windows, tons of interior space, and quiet. Here is a deck I prepared luxury airships and opportunities for hydrogen airships:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1r6CPFJ1AX1ZULacguTf6...

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by perihelions on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:47PM (#28124700)
The title image has a solid-fuel missile in it (attached to left-blimp). That render has very interesting backstory:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8760732

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Altitude_Venus_Operationa...

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Karrot_Kream on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:00PM (#28123372)
Airships would make a fantastic, greener alternative to a cruise ship. I suspect winds to be its biggest sticking point.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ecpottinger on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:01PM (#28124158)
I have gone on a of number cruises, especially on the Alaskan cruise and Panama cruise the one thing I never heard from anyone was "I wish they traveled faster.".

There is a number of trips that a slow and quiet trip would make for great fun.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ThePadawan on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:21AM (#28125989)
During the uncertainty of when/if ports would reopen across Europe, some UK cruise companies went so far as to simply offer "cruises to nowhere".

I.e. they would set off the usual ports, but not head for continental Europe, just sail out to a calm spot with agreeable climate and hang out there for a while.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by thefounder on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:36AM (#28126444)
Why did they leave the port at all?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by gambiting on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:43AM (#28126491)
Because I can't imagine people are happy to pay to sit for a week in an industrial dock in Portsmouth. Also sailing to warmer waters means you can sit on the outside deck/balcony and enjoy the sun. Again, not exactly the things UK ports are well known for.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:51AM (#28127210)
I'm going to guess that there are laws that make that pretty undesirable. For example: There were (and maybe still are) gambling ships on the Ohio river and on Lake Michigan - all of which docked in Indiana. Unfortunately, such gambling was illegal in Indiana. The ships had to leave dock and go out a little on the water. Suddenly, the gambling was legal.

There are probably dozens of these laws that encourage leaving the dock, especially if you are going into international waters instead of simply between states.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dr_dshiv on Sunday August 15, 2021 @04:35AM (#28187155)
Yes, the LA to Las Vegas gambling air cruiser would be a profitable route. Sunsets would be fantastic!
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by TylerE on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:16AM (#28125369)
The problem is scale.

The Hindenberg design, despite being 800ft long, only accommodated 50 passengers, in TINY cabins (6.5' x 5').

The entire cabin was 6000 sqft.

Even the "cheap" cabins on a modern cruise ship are ~150sqft each, and all have private bathrooms.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:07AM (#28126627)
But we do have lighter materials to build with, avaiable today?

So a same size blimp could give more room. And why not just build bigger blimps.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by LeonM on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:04AM (#28127285)
Yes, we could make a larger cabin with the same weight constraints using modern composite materials.

But even with lighter materials, you would still not be able to accommodate more passengers comfortably. The majority of weight-per-passenger will come from water (which every passenger needs for showering, toilets, food preparation). You would need to land regularly just for passenger hygene reasons. So I still don't expect blimps will be a 'comfortable' alternative to cruise ships.

Random fun fact: The Hindenburg had a grand piano made from aluminium, as a regular piano would have been too heavy.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:44AM (#28128110)
I think there is usually lots of water in the sky. You could just pipe in a cloud ...
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by TylerE on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:17PM (#28150894)
Condensers are going to be heavy, too.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dr_dshiv on Sunday August 15, 2021 @04:27AM (#28187106)
When you have tons of surface area for free and a big temperature difference, I'm sure water condensation can be done in a different way.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by nickik on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:18PM (#28135411)
Random fun fact 2: They even removed that piano because it was to heavy.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by simonebrunozzi on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:38PM (#28134118)
> Random fun fact: The Hindenburg had a grand piano made from aluminium, as a regular piano would have been too heavy.

This is truly fascinating. I didn't know that.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dr_dshiv on Sunday August 15, 2021 @04:32AM (#28187137)
Random fun fact-- the only lady on the first round the world zeppelin trip secretly brought on a phonograph!
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by adrianN on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:43AM (#28126836)
Cruise ships are absolutely massive. They're floating cities, housing and feeding thousands of people. The new materials would have to be very light indeed to scale from 50 to 5000 passengers.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:55AM (#28126906)
I would be fine with 50-150 people per module. And then you can maybe meet in air. Combine them or seperate them. Land or go up very high. Drift where the wind blows. The sky is big.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by rob74 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:59AM (#28125569)
Then any sufficiently interesting city in the world will be able to experience the joys of regularly being invaded by cruise tourists - yay for that! Fortunately airships won't be able to hold quite as many passengers as a cruise ship...
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by simonebrunozzi on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:37PM (#28134099)
The hyperloop calculations are way off. the longer the tube, the thicker it has to be to support itself.

Instead, "aerial airstrip" on slide 21 would make a ton of sense. Move airports from the ground to above the clouds (3km up in the air?). Advantages:

1) 10-15% less fuel consumption (after take-offs you are already at 3km altitude)

2) much less noise for the surroundings

3) less subject to bad weather conditions.

etc.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dr_dshiv on Sunday August 15, 2021 @04:34AM (#28187151)
The Hyperloop to the sky calculations are admittedly very back-of-the-napkin. Contributions welcome!

Glad you like the aerial airstrip

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:49PM (#28124982)
Y'all need to read Kenneth Oppel's Matt Cruse series (Airborn, Skybreaker and Starclimber, but mainly Airborn)
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dragontamer on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:33PM (#28120482)
> Too slow for transportation, maybe. But leisure travel? Imagine a one week air safari over the Serengeti, Ngoro Ngoro crater, and Kruger Park. It could be awesome.

Well, if we're talking about weird Sci-Fi ideas (that might be possible), lets just go all in on it.

Rocket launches are extremely expensive, and most of it is in the lifting costs. Would it be cheaper to "lift" a rocket with hydrogen slowly?

Yeah, we also need to get enough kinetic energy to enter orbit. But surely getting rid of a huge chunk of "Gravity" costs could lead to substantial rocket-fuel savings?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by wantoncl on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:43PM (#28120609)
I can't find it now, but there was previous discussion on HN, about the amount of atmospheric drag a balloon-launched rocket would save as not being worthwhile. Most of the orbital velocity is spent going horizontally, the vertical part is <20% of even the most aggressive orbital trajectory, and the drag is virtually nil past 150K feet. And the delta-v needed to reach orbit is some very high percent of the total fuel and thrust.

Basically balloon launches would only benefit small sub-orbital sounding type rockets.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Ajedi32 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:25PM (#28121200)
JP Aerospace has an interesting concept where the entire balloon would get slowly accelerated to orbital velocity using electric/chemical hybrid propulsion: http://www.jpaerospace.com/atohandout.pdf

That could potentially be viable, as it'd save fuel over more traditional rockets by allowing for the use of high efficiency, low thrust engines which would otherwise be infeasible for an orbital rocket due to gravity losses.

Not sure though, I haven't done the math. It might be that the losses due to drag exceed what a more traditional rocket would lose to gravity.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by pbronez on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:49PM (#28123718)
Pretty cool that they’ve built some prototypes
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by londons_explore on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:45PM (#28121465)
There is a big benefit... Rocket nozzles that are most efficient in a vacuum don't work at sea level (oscillations cause the whole thing to shake apart). Therefore launching from high up means you can skip the less efficient rockets and just have a single type of more efficient rocket engine.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by sfblah on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:51PM (#28121560)
This is a very interesting point. Is there a counterargument to this?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by onethought on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:10PM (#28122951)
Vacuum optimised rockets require a vacuum. Balloons require atmosphere… so there is a gap where the balloon can’t go higher and the engine isn’t in vacuum yet
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by imtringued on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:16AM (#28129142)
Combine balloons with skyhooks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqwpQarrDwk

Edit:

According to proprietary imtringued numbers the hydrogen for a balloon capable of lifting 1kg to 50km would be $800 if you do not reuse the hydrogen. The skyhook would accept vehicles at an altitude of 100km so no, keep balloons out of the space launch industry.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by londons_explore on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:32AM (#28125442)
Thin-atmosphere-optimized is a thing, and lets you get most of the benefits.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:31PM (#28123977)
Rockets use stages partially to solve this problem, also to deal with rocket equation issues.

So already a solved problem

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jasonwatkinspdx on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:06PM (#28124498)
1. Stages

2. Adaptive rocket nozzles are a thing.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jasonwatkinspdx on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:05PM (#28124492)
I researched this pretty comprehensively, at least as a curious person in an armchair, and this is 100% correct.

There's one possible way it may pencil out, which is you gain some flexibility in terms of launch site. There's one company pursuing airplane based launches for this reason, but I'm still skeptical. Elon et all haven't had much trouble securing land for launch facilities.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jcrites on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:13AM (#28125942)
There's an XKCD blog (?) that explains space launches in an intuitive way, with pictures:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/

Getting space isn't about getting "really high" (although of course you need to do that too). It's more about going "really fast" (relative to the ground). Like wantoncl mentioned, most of the fuel getting into orbit is spent on building that speed along the ground, not the height into the sky.

Think of it this way: space is only 100km away. ("If you're in Sacramento, Seattle, Canberra, Kolkata, Hyderabad, Phnom Penh, Cairo, Beijing, central Japan, central Sri Lanka, or Portland, space is closer than the sea.") You can drive that distance in a car in a moderately short time. The challenge is getting to the speed to stay in space and not fall back to earth.

Leaving Earth orbit for other astronomical bodies is another very interesting problem entirely. If you'd like to learn more about this, I'd encourage you to explore the video game Kerbal Space Program which has very accurate orbital mechanics.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by bin_bash on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:10PM (#28121003)
somewhat unrelated but wouldn't this also defeat the purpose of a space elevator? It seems that also would only save on the vertical part. I realize I'm almost certainly wrong but I'm curious why.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by foxyv on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:27PM (#28121242)
A space elevator not only raises payloads, but also accelerates them to geostationary orbital velocities (~3000 m/s). Luckily these velocities are much much lower than LEO orbits (7600 m/s).

Ideally the energy to perform this acceleration comes from the rotation of the planet below, transmitted via the tether. The anchor station would have to be stabilized to prevent oscillation and rotation. However that technical challenge is minor compared to the tether material itself.

Another advantage of a space elevator is that we can use electrical power from a base station instead of onboard power on the vehicle alone. Also the power can be much lower than a comparable rocket. To ascend on the rail/tether you can accelerate much slower. It doesn't need to lift fast or fall. It can just slowly accumulate altitude and velocity.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ajford on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:19PM (#28121126)
The idea of a space elevator usually requires an orbital anchor point, in which case lifting yourself up the tether would pull you fully out of the gravitational well.

I've not done the mechanics in a long time (not since college), but I believe the tether itself would be providing all horizontal propulsion. Essentially by riding the tether up, it starts pushing you faster and faster. Since the payload's mass would be small compared to the anchor, the drag on the anchor would be negligible.

There's likely some need for thrust compensation on the anchor over time to counteract the delta V lost to the lifting of payloads, but that would all be part of station-keeping and would be there for tether drag as well.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Retric on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:23PM (#28121187)
The anchor is past geosynchronous orbit so it’s applying a constant upwards force. The energy for horizontal motion comes from the rotation of the earth, much like how a rotating ice skater slows down when they spread their arms.

Station keeping may be used to dampen oscillations, but managing climbing rates works just as well.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ajford on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:39PM (#28121382)
So the constant upwards force is providing enough tension to keep the cable in the realm of a rigid body approximation? I would have assumed the force applied to accelerate the payload would also deflect the tether and anchor backwards (in a miniscule amount) and would have built up over successive payloads.

Not arguing, just curious. It's been at least a decade since I've messed with orbital mechanics.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Retric on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:05PM (#28121705)
It does defect the anchor from pure vertical, but like a ball on a pendulum the vertical force from the anchor translates into a horizontal force.

EX: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312934526/figure/do...

Of course if you really dig into things it’s more complicated, but the basic principle is very similar.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by MobiusHorizons on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:21PM (#28121163)
To be effective, a space elevator would have to deliver the payload all the way out to geostationary orbit altitude. At that hight, the payload would already be in orbit without adding any additional horizontal velocity. But almost all of the height is higher than you can float a lighter than air craft (42164km vs ~40km for lighter than air craft).
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jbotz on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:26PM (#28121213)
Because a real space elevator would go all the way to geostationary orbit where the orbital speed is the same as the rotation of the planet. Remember that the further up you go, the slower the orbital velocity, i.e. the "horizontal part" shrinks until the "vertical part" becomes the whole thing.

In fact, the way to build a space elevator is not to build a "tower to space", but to put an anchor rock into geostationary orbit and then hang a cable down to earth from it. You can then connect the cable to terra firma so that it doesn't sway, but in terms of the main forces involved it's hanging down, not standing up.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by fanf2 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:37PM (#28121365)
The tether needs to go past geosynchronous orbit to act as a counterbalance
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by inglor_cz on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:26PM (#28121211)
With the space elevator, you can get to space easily, but getting to orbit is much harder. Basically, you only achieve orbital speed once you have crawled to the geostationary orbit, e.g. 35,786 km above the Earth. Crawling that far from the Earth costs a lot of energy.

If you crawl only to the LEO altitude (e.g. 300 km) on the space elevator, you will be in space, but not in orbit. If you let go of the elevator there, you will immediately start falling to a gruesome death.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by adolph on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:54PM (#28123321)
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by mr_toad on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:26PM (#28124286)
If it’s any comfort, you’d asphyxiate before the fall killed you.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Maursault on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:36PM (#28124920)
Assuming one didn't asphyxiate or freeze to death on the way up, unfortunately, if during the day, you'd likely suffer immolation (due to high temperatures in the thermosphere) before losing consciousness from asphyxiation. Also, even if not either, the fall doesn't kill you; it's the impact.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dTal on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:31PM (#28134885)
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by 8note on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:23PM (#28136820)
Huh? Isn't the air too thin up there for that? One high temperature particle isn't going to set you on fire
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by thatguy0900 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:32PM (#28121294)
A space elavator would also lend alot of centrifugal force past the atmosphere due to the tethered rotation that you wouldn't get with a balloon, if it's high enough it will be able to escape just by virtue of that when released
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jameshart on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:21PM (#28121159)
Space elevators get you all the way out to geosync orbit (and beyond) - as you climb you accelerate as you move away from the surface of the earth, and so by the time you reach geosync height you are traveling at orbital velocity.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by bialpio on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:24PM (#28121195)
My guess would be: top of the space elevator needs to stay in orbit so it already needs to have appropriate "horizontal" part.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dylan604 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:43PM (#28121440)
>Basically balloon launches would only benefit small sub-orbital sounding type rockets.

So you're saying Jeff Bezos should look into this for Blue Origin since you essentially described his capabilities? ;-)

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by vkou on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:40PM (#28120576)
It's not expensive to go to space because you have to go up. Going up into space is 'easy'.

It's expensive to stay in space because you have to go sideways, really, really fast. 8 km/s fast, in fact.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by klyrs on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:29PM (#28121262)
This is fun to think about. You only need that horizontal velocity to stay in orbit, right? But what about getting to the moon? Turns out it only goes about 1km/s. Still bloody fast, but it's a bit less scary. Daydreams of capturing that energy on descent to power a moonbase... but then the moon is quite a long way away, and you need to escape over 99% of the earth's gravity, opposed to the 10% needed to reach space. Phooey, lunch is never free.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:06PM (#28120927)
I asked this question once and got laughed at. My embarrassment burned it into me: Going fast is the challenge with orbiting, not going up.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by mLuby on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:14PM (#28121075)
Nobody should have laughed—your misconception was one 99% of the population shares!

Nature is enough of a gatekeeper to space, she doesn't need mortal deputies.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:18PM (#28121118)
The learning journey has been more good than bad. My favorite was that orbit seems far away, until you look out from an aircraft and realize you're 30% of the way there. Usually, from where you live, the next major town is further than LEO.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by rejectedandsad on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:20PM (#28121146)
This is a brilliant turn of phrase and I’m definitely going to steal it
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by frosted-flakes on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:12PM (#28121035)
Well, if you could go high enough, you could be in a geosynchronous orbit without moving horizontally at all. I think that's how space elevators would work. But then to move to a lower orbit you would actually need to speed up.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:16PM (#28121095)
If you "fell" from geosync, wouldn't you speed up? Angular momentum needs to be conserved, right?

Edit:my terrible wording created answers to a different question.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jameshart on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:23PM (#28121184)
If you ’fall’ from geosync orbit, you fall in a circle and wind up where you started. Orbiting is falling.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by kempbellt on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:49PM (#28121532)
Theoretical geosync means zero velocity in any direction relative to ground. Zero up, down, forward, back, left, or right. You're stuck above a single point of dirt/water, over the equator, at a fixed altitude.

The only way to "fall" (lower your altitude) from here would be via some sort of acceleration force towards ground (like a burn). So yes, your speed would have to increase.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:19PM (#28121858)
Well fine. I meant that orbital speed (the "along track part") would increase if you lowered the altitude of a geosync object with rockets, string, or any other force, I think.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:03PM (#28124170)
It doesn’t. If you pulled ‘down’, it would just make the orbit eccentric.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by blacksmith_tb on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:26PM (#28121223)
That's my understanding, geosync is the point at which you continually fall toward the Earth and miss, closer and you'd eventually hit, farther and you would move away.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jameshart on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:35PM (#28121327)
That’s not really correct.

Geosync is the altitude at which a circular orbit takes 24 hours - meaning it takes as long to complete one orbit as it takes the earth to complete one revolution.

But there’s an orbital velocity at EVERY altitude, and therefore there’s an orbital period at every altitude too.

If you are at a particular altitude and you are going at a different speed than the one needed for a circular orbit, you are either going too fast (in which case you are in an elliptical orbit and you will gradually increase altitude and lose speed until you reach the top of that ellipse) or you are going too slow to stay in a circular orbit (in which case you will follow an ellipse down to a lower altitude and gain speed).

In that ‘too slow’ case, if it’s much too slow then the ellipse you follow will take you low enough to hit the surface or atmosphere of whatever you’re orbiting (ie you will crash into it)

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by tialaramex on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:02PM (#28122878)
I think you knew this but it wasn't obvious from how you wrote it. Your orbit is not required to be a circle. The diagrams we draw for children are nice circles, but most things that we know are orbiting something do not travel in a circle, e.g. the Earth -- if the orbit was circular our seasons would be slightly different† and the insight that the orbits can be non-circular ellipses was critical to the reasoning that eventually got us a heliocentric model of our solar system.

Geostationary communications satellites do have a basically circular orbit, as you said, but many other birds do not.

Russia has a bunch of stuff in orbits that "linger" very high over Russian territory for much of their orbital period then shoot right around close to the back side of the planet quickly and linger again, these are called Molniya orbits.

The US has a bunch of secret (presumably spy) satellites that fly less obvious orbits like this too, for presumably similar reasons.

† Edited: This post originally said "very" different, but in fact the difference would be modest since our orbit just isn't that elliptical. I wasn't able to find out how modest, but certainly if you think summer in New Zealand (in December) is pretty similar to summer in England (in June) then it's reasonable to say at least that similar.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by frosted-flakes on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:17PM (#28123015)
I think GP means that if you are stationary relative to the ground (such as on a space elevator or a rocket going straight up), 35786 km up is the only height which is a stable orbit. If you let go of the elevator too early, you'll fall to the ground; too high and you'll fly off into space.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by IntrepidWorm on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:13PM (#28122378)
Certainly no need to feel bad. Orbital mechanics are counterintuitive to us ground dwellers- even astronauts sometimes need a refresher course!
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by toomanybeersies on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:10PM (#28121004)
You're describing rockoons [1], which were used for launching (non-orbital) sounding rockets back in the 1950s.

I think they fell out of use as high altitude jet aircraft became more common and economical as a launch platform.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockoon

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by radeck on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:38PM (#28120534)
You would save around 5% fuel and multiply costs by 10. People have tried and tested, much better to just make the rocket reusable.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by RobertoG on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:34PM (#28121313)
Never mind how crazy is your idea, there is always somebody that it's already trying it:

https://www.zero2infinity.space/bloostar/

Of course, you still have to accelerate to orbit, but you don't have to deal with the atmosphere.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dylan604 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:42PM (#28121427)
What about doing the 2-stage system similar to Virgin Galactic? Use the "balloon" to lift the system to upper altitudes, and then fire off the rocket to do orbital insertion type stuff.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by josephcsible on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:36PM (#28120509)
> Rocket launches are extremely expensive, and most of it is in the lifting costs. Would it be cheaper to "lift" a rocket with hydrogen slowly?

No: https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by soperj on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:38PM (#28120545)
>Getting to space[1] is easy. It's not, like, something you could do in your car, but it's not a huge challenge. You could get a person to space with a small sounding rocket the size of a telephone pole. The X-15 aircraft reached space[2] just by going fast and then steering up.[3]

Loved that line. Puts the Branson/Bezos thing into perspective.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by toomanybeersies on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:15PM (#28121087)
These days there are even amateur rocket clubs that have managed (unmanned) suborbital space launches [1].

[1] http://www.uscrpl.com/traveler-iv

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by josephcsible on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:47PM (#28120668)
It's not impossible, sure. It's just usually not worth it.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by R0b0t1 on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:37PM (#28120525)
The idea is that this gets you above the densest atmosphere and that could save you fuel. I used to think this, but if you run the numbers it doesn't work out.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by evan_ on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:42PM (#28120597)
That would also let us do the rocket launch from the middle of the ocean rather than near inhabited areas.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by soperj on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:40PM (#28120574)
From linked xkcd what if: Gravity in low Earth orbit is almost as strong as gravity on the surface. The Space Station hasn't escaped Earth's gravity at all; it's experiencing about 90% the pull that we feel on the surface.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by parineum on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:43PM (#28120615)
Parent isn't talking about gravity, he's talking about alleviating the rocket equation by not having to lift your fuel with fuel.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dghlsakjg on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:54PM (#28120769)
Yes, but...

The majority of energy expended in getting to orbit is spent in getting to orbital velocity (going sideways), rather than getting to orbital altitude (going up). Balloons only help in going up, and only to where the density of the atmosphere is so low that the balloon is no longer lifting, they are still far short of the altitude necessary for orbit. Balloons top out at around 20-30 miles while LEO is ~100 miles.

So launching using a balloon only really gives you a very small fuel savings

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jandrese on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:55PM (#28120776)
That's the issue though. The hard part about achieving orbit isn't the height, it's the speed. In both a ground launch and a balloon launch you are starting at 0.

This article does a better job explaining it than just about anything else on the web: https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/

So complex schemes to lift the rocket to the edge of space don't end up buying you very much.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by solarkraft on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:13PM (#28122978)
Nope. I don’t have numbers but according to Elon Musk (who we probably at least agree on has a grasp of the basic principles) “space is easy, orbit is hard”.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by matttproud on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:59AM (#28125568)
If I recall correctly, you can do some leisure travel around the Bodensee (Lake Constance) on one that is moored out of the historical harbor in Friedrichshafen. A friend who’s a pilot even logged training hours on one of them — just to check that off the bucket list. They can be seen circling the lake nearly every day in summer.

https://zeppelin-nt.de/de/zeppelin-fluege/uebersicht.html

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by R0b0t1 on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:32PM (#28120473)
Airships would be good for freight. Far less carbon footprint than airplanes.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lb1lf on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:37PM (#28120522)
-Also, much slower and lower cargo capacity.

That being said, I can see them being used where roads are sparse, inland (so shipping is not an option) and far away from the nearest railroad.

We definitely need more green-tinged options; I root for airships!

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by elcritch on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:47PM (#28122720)
Not necessarily slower than cargo ships, and possibly significantly faster. This paper claims that by using the jet streams a hydrogen blimp could circumnavigate the globe in about 14-16 days [1]. Google gives about 77 days to do the same on cargo ship. Of course there would be lots of details to consider on the exact route taken, but from first principles it seems plausible.

1: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259017451... 2: https://arimotravels.com/how-long-does-it-take-a-cargo-ship-...

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jodrellblank on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:05PM (#28123422)
I haven’t clicked the links to see if it’s mentioned because mobile, but it should be more than plausible - it was done 80 years ago; the Graf Zeppelin hydrogen lift airship did a round the world flight in five stages in about 15 days total flight time in 1929:

https://www.airships.net/blog/graf-zeppelin-round-the-world-...

(And it was the first air vehicle to pass 1,000,000 miles travelled, with no accidents, the first to reach the North Pole, the first regular transatlantic commercial flights, etc. all with 1920s technology and tens of thousands of hand-glued animal intestines for the lift bags)

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by h0l0cube on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:04AM (#28126243)
The OP article suggests airships would be on par with conventional shipping freight for time. But in terms of capacity it makes an excellent point:

> Cargo airships would need to be big—bigger than the Hindenburg. Airships are blessed and cursed with a square-cube law: the drag of the airship, which is proportional to its cross-sectional area, scales with length squared, but the volume of lifting gas, and thus the gross lift, scales with length to the third power. Therefore, the lift-to-drag ratio, a critical parameter in aircraft performance, gets better as the airship gets bigger.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by 8note on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:29PM (#28136870)
Shouldn't it scale linearly with length?

It's basically a cylinder, who's volume is heightPiradius^2.

Unless you're also making it wider and taller, it's not a cubed growth

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by h0l0cube on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @07:36AM (#28140726)
The way I read it, is that drag increases ^2 for length, but because volume increases lift for airships (as opposed to other aircraft) you get this ^3 increase in lift by increasing length. So airship economy increases with size, as opposed to an airplane.

For the square-cube law, a cursory wiki search yields:

> The square–cube law can be stated as follows:

> When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier and its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Fnoord on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:35AM (#28126794)
You're forgetting train (completely viable for China -> Europe), and the times where train isn't viable, a direct shipping express can be as efficient as allowing. What you quote with regards to 77 days is around the world but that isn't interesting for transport (that's interesting for leisure of just for the sheer competing; not transportation business).

What is interesting is the amount of time from large industrial ports such as say Singapore or New York to Rotterdam or Hamburg or Antwerp, the associated costs, and the risk of losing the transport (and its contents).

Either way, the last mile is the inefficiency with regards to carbon footprint. Ie. the transportation ship (and more so train) is relatively efficient; the last mile of the minivan delivering the one packet to you is the one which has the largest (relative) carbon footprint. To solve that, we need to invest in electric vehicles.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by snovv_crash on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:55AM (#28127236)
Train needs a massive upfront infrastructure investment, and isn't flexible for route when passing through politically unstable areas. China -> Europe needs to cross through at some point. Similarly, Africa -> Europe by train needs to cross in a politically unstable area. Being able to choose your route is very valuable.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Fnoord on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:16AM (#28127374)
The infrastructure for trains is already there (China -> Europe), its just static and therefore inflexible. It isn't going through politically unstable areas, just Russia. As long as you don't bet on one horse you're going to be fine. I don't know anything about trains from Africa to Europe. I believe China exports more than Africa.

Since we don't talk about last mile, they're competing with ship and airplane. For last mile, there's only the minivan/truck solution, though I'm not sure how widely adopted or sustainable drone delivery is as of now. A low carbon footprint of drone delivery would be a plus for adopting it long term.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by 8note on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:25PM (#28136840)
A blimp still needs to cross those areas, and could be shot down
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by pharke on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:55PM (#28120785)
They could conceivably be very cheap if the gas pockets were mass produced. Everything else on board for propulsion and housing the pilot would be on the scale of a small prop aircraft. As long as the cargo can be easily managed, perhaps in a shipping container, then these would be easy to deploy en masse. They can land in any suitable field that has a crew on hand to guide them in with ropes. You might not even need pilots since these would be perfect targets for automation.

As for speed, you can optimize the shape of the aircraft and the position of the propeller for this. I've seen a number of videos that show surprisingly good performance for pointier fuselage with a pusher prop on the tail.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by scarby2 on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:10PM (#28122953)
> Everything else on board for propulsion and housing the pilot would be on the scale of a small prop aircraft

It's likely that any cargo airship would fly for days/weeks at a time and would require at least 4 crew-members and everything they would need for the length of the voyage. So less a small prop and more something akin to facilities available on a yacht/Large RV.

> You might not even need pilots since these would be perfect targets for automation.

This would perhaps be the best solution

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by midasuni on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:36AM (#28128045)
Why would it need crew? What would they do?

A cargo airship drone remotely controlled would get rid of most of the non-cargo mass requirements.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Karrot_Kream on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:02PM (#28123386)
> -Also, much slower and lower cargo capacity.

I've always found airships and lifting gasses fascinating, but I'm not fully educated on this point. I thought that airships could potentially have very large cargo capacity, especially because larger airships increase aerial stability. Speeds would be slow, but I thought it was feasible to ship huge payloads, no?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lb1lf on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:49AM (#28126166)
-I know next to nothing of airships, but I believe your problem would be controlled flight; a huge airship has huge drag and once winds pick up, you'll soon run out of engine power to counter that drag - and all of a sudden you find yourself going the way the wind blows, which may or may not be where you intended to go...

(Presumably that same drag will cause problems for the structural integrity of the airship, too.)

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:16AM (#28126675)
I suppose winds will be the major problem for very big airships, but I believe there are lots of ways to deal with it. Using the wind in sailing is a known art. There could be technics to counter that? Or cruise along the wind and take a slightly different route. Or in general, probably you will have to take the winds into account a lot more, when planning blimps routes. And the winds are also different at different altitude.

And above a certain height, >10000 m, it is usually much calmer, but I think ordinary blimps cannot go that high. Different outside pressure etc. Possible to mitigate with adjusting the amount of hydrogen by compressing/releasing?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by kemiller on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:00PM (#28122859)
With a huge balloon and flexible solar panels + fuel cell (they've already got to carry H2) they could be nearly zero.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by solarkraft on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:11PM (#28122959)
Except they don’t compete with planes, but with water ships.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by chrisco255 on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:44PM (#28123229)
Except not really, as it's quite difficult to float a barge across a continent.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by elihu on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:01PM (#28123384)
In that case, they're competing with trains.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dsr_ on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:18PM (#28123509)
Trains need tracks, barges need rivers, trucks need roads.

A cargo airship needs a clear field, and probably some really good tie-downs -- dropping off one or five thousand kilograms of cargo will produce a major lift imbalance.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by m4rtink on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:38PM (#28123648)
Yeah, ballasting is often forgotten when people talks about huge cargo airships.

Yes, it can drop a huge generator into the middle of nowhere for your construction project, but unless you do something it will then shoot up to the stratosphere due to all the extra lift.

Still, its solvable with either some rudimentary infrastructure (pump water aboard as you unload cargo) or by removing some of the lifting gas (much less of an issue with hydrogen).

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ambicapter on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:51PM (#28124417)
Don't you just need to compress some of your lifting gas? Just pump/compress it into a tank, reverse it when you need the lift?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by FullyFunctional on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:12PM (#28123870)
There is (was?) an effort to restart Airships for cargo traffic. They solved the ballast issue with onboard compressors. If understood it correctly that solved this problem complete with [effectively?] no loss of lift gas.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by m4rtink on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:50PM (#28124092)
Interesting! Setting the weight of the compressors and the energy requirements (I guess you could supply that ground side if possible) it really does solve the issue of loosing helium. :)

For hydrogen you I guess you could either let it go or also use the compressors in case there is no way to replenish the lifting gas & you might need the extra lift before returning to your primary maintenance base.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Karrot_Kream on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:20PM (#28123918)
Right but now you're consuming energy to run those compressors, making the energy-savings moot. If you look at the history of airship development (which admittedly is ancient by modern technological standards), there were several incidents of airships floating away from their mooring. Mooring an airship is actually a fairly difficult problem.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by coryrc on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:27PM (#28123956)
Energy usage for compression is tiny compared to actually transiting, and you can get some of the energy back. Or if it was hydrogen fueled, just run your engines for a short time.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by fogihujy on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:10AM (#28128336)
Or, just have the compressor ready at the dock, and wait with the unloading until the hydrogen has been compressed.

But yeah, simply running a compressor powered by hydrogen should suffice. I assume the airships would require some surplus hydrogen anyway, in case there's a mid-flight leak or something.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Karrot_Kream on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:28PM (#28123966)
Fair enough you're probably right. And if you have a battery onboard and charge it using solar cells on the ship, you should have enough energy generated to at least run the compressor and dock the ship.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by manicpolymath on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:04PM (#28124173)
This might be slow, but what about using the lift gas in a fuel cell with atmospheric O2 for extra efficiency? You reduce the lift gas in the bags, and if you store the water aboard then you get extra ballast. You could even “unload” the extra electricity for use groundside.

The corollary pipe dream here is to line the entire interior of the envelope as a fuel cell membrane and use the airship as a portable battery.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by m4rtink on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:34PM (#28131749)
IIRC some military airships condensed water from their their engine exhaust to keep better control over their balance (the ship otherwise gets lighter as you burn fuel and you might have to release some of the irreplaceable lifting gas instead).
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:23AM (#28126719)
Cover the whole outside of the blimp in solar panel foil? I do not see energy as the problem.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by nanomonkey on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:45AM (#28125210)
This is only really an issue with Helium. When Hydrogen is your lifting gas, you can use it with fuel cells to power the cranes, producing water as a further ballast.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by toomanybeersies on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:26PM (#28124290)
In the hypothetical hydrogen powered future, cargo Zeppelins could pull double-duty as a hydrogen tanker.

In the case of hauling gensets around, that would basically make it a fully self-contained power plant.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by abecedarius on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:27PM (#28124292)
Also confidence of calm weather until it reaches the next field, no? I'm not sure how strict a constraint that'll be.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:12AM (#28127832)
Curiously enough, virtually everywhere with any significant human activity exists ... near ports, roads, rivers, or rail.

Roads or tracks can be quickly laid through wilderness if necessary (provided the natives are friendly).

If you're dealing with frozen terrain, ice roads can be used.

There are some exceptions to this. They are extreme outliers, both figuratively and geographically.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by mr_toad on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:59PM (#28124148)
The NIMBYs would never allow a hydrogen fuelled airship anywhere near anywhere.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by cmrdporcupine on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:34PM (#28123622)
They make a lot of sense in the north (northern Canada and Siberia) where roads and railway are not economical or not possible because of permafrost.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by brnt on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:49PM (#28123724)
Western Europe uses its rivers and hundreds of thousands of km of canals to ship between a quarter and a half of its freight this way. It's the most economical and environmentally friendly form of transport. Youre right that this sort of infrastructure does not come cheap, which is why hydrogen dirigibles are very interesting.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by chrisco255 on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:00PM (#28123788)
That's nice in Europe, great that it has that system. But that doesn't work in North America (east to west navigation across continent impossible by barge), Asia, Africa or South America.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:58AM (#28126586)
May I introduce you to the emergent advanced experimental technologies of the shipping canal and river barge?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Fnoord on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:20AM (#28126694)
There's more to compete with though: train and ship. Both have severely lower carbon footprint than airplane as well. Ship might seem terrible at first glance, but the amount of tonnes being transported is so huge that it outweighs the fuel.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:34AM (#28127137)
Competition is always a problem. Trains cannot compete with trucks in most cases because logistics are dirt cheap and trucks are more flexible.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:57AM (#28127247)
Oh, but they can - and they do. It is really common for freight to go the distance it can by rail and then the last miles by truck - they load the entire semi trailer onto the train and only have to load the trailer once.

Trains aren't as flexible as trucks, true. But a train can go hundreds of miles with only two dedicated people - the engineer and the conductor - and they pull hundreds of trucks (and more). A lot of trains in the US are more efficient: They have a diesel generator that runs the electric motors on the wheels.

Even better: In the US, the tracks prioritize freight trains. Amtrak usually rents the space, and you get stuck waiting for freight to pass (at least in Indiana).

I have relatives that work as engineers and conductors for a freight train company, by the way.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by newsclues on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:36PM (#28120506)
I’ve been thinking they are a good idea to help with overloaded ports, as they can pick up cargo cans and move them without any of the current bottlenecks.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lb1lf on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:40PM (#28120570)
-The airship would likely be the bottleneck; a 40ft shipping container may weigh anything up to approx. 30 metric tons.

You wouldn't be able to put many of those under an airship, hence you'd need a lot of rather space-hogging airships.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by newsclues on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:51PM (#28120730)
But there are ships moored waiting for their turn for the cranes to unload.

If you have swarms of these unloading, a few cans, it helps right?

I’m sure it would be very handy for edge cases where only a few cans need to be offloaded at a specific port.

You can also setup secondary drop off zones that avoid bottlenecks, like straight transfers from ship to train.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lb1lf on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:09PM (#28120979)
-It would help; the question is more whether it would be worth it in the grand scheme of things; seeing as the weight differential between air and hydrogen is approximately 1.15kg/cubic meter at sea level, ignoring any weight in the airship itself, you're going to have to displace on the order of 25,000 cubic meters of air to lift one 20/40ft container (the max gross weight is only a couple of tons larger in a 40ft than in a 20ft unit).

This volume of hydrogen is a cube with 30m sides. For one container. Neglecting the weight of the ship itself.

The big container ships can carry upwards of 20,000 20ft units - so you're going to need a lot of airships (which will require a lot of airspace) to make an appreciable dent in the cargo unloading time.

(The main issue really being that container ships are absurdly large!)

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by FabHK on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:31PM (#28121279)
FWIW, the article contemplates cargo airships with a million m^3, which would carry around 40 containers. That would be a cube with 100m sides, and you'd need 500 of those to replace one big container ship.

Seems not a realistic option to replace container ships, but might be realistic for specific use cases.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by xphos on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:26PM (#28121944)
So like to move a shipping container weighing 40 tons requires what 32x32x32 cubic meter space to be supported that's pretty tiny considering the other advantages. They could travel fast and in basically all weather. Lightening is a worry but if you isolate your hydrogen well it shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention they would be much more fuel efficient. Heck you could probably slap solar on them and get net zero energy discharge for low container ship speeds. The only issue being is I don't know if they would alleviate unloading issues if there was high winds. I don't really know the method for securing an airship but if they just let down a big rope and tie themselves done you can do that anywhere.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:19PM (#28123913)
You can’t use an airship in anything much stronger than a stiff breeze - and major air currents and the like are a problem on any trip of significant length. There is a reason the zeppelins fell out of favor, and it was because their safe operational envelope was pretty small - once you looked at real long term safety record.

The US Navy ran many of them for awhile and they stopped because they crashed so often.

Theoretically they are safe. In reality, they aren’t outside of very controlled circumstances

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by vineyardmike on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:29PM (#28121266)
> This volume of hydrogen is a cube with 30m sides. For one container

This is actually smaller than i was imagining.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by manigandham on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:07PM (#28120951)
Unlikely to help given how big and slow they are. These cargo ships carry thousands of containers.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by xphos on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:35PM (#28122034)
Airships would probably be much fast than cargo ships though. Ships cut through the water at like maybe 30 mph in good conditions. Airships could easily keep as they are dealing with so much less drag. In the 1930 they moved at like 70 mph aka 2x the speed of container ships. I mean there cargo space would be like 1/40 but with the difference in speed thats only 1/20 in the rate of moving cargo not to mention that you aren't bound by water which is the major issue with ports. They are just very congested and ships are stuck in ship lanes. The air is much more limitless in terms of shipping paths.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jsjohnst on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:47PM (#28123703)
> Ships cut through the water at like maybe 30 mph in good conditions.

Container ships rarely if ever go that fast. Usually it’s in the 15-18 knots range (aka <20mph) from what I’ve seen.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dmckeon on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:02AM (#28125035)
The relevant question is not: “Could airships move full shipping containers?” but rather: “Could airships find an economic niche and turn a profit in that niche?” Perhaps they move cargo in lighter containers (fiberglass, aluminum, etc.), or in moving high-volume low-mass cargoes like prefabricated cylindrical tanks, or wind turbine blades. Perhaps they specialize by replacing “ice road” transport to tundra or arctic locations. Or to jungle locations - mining or drilling operations. Maybe they replace sky-crane helicopters rather than replacing barges, container ships, trains, or trucks. We have mostly replaced sailing ships, canal narrow boats, stagecoaches, and the pony express. Nothing is forever. We’ll know that H2 airships have really arrived when they are mentioned in country music.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Robotbeat on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:25AM (#28125674)
Depends on the airplane. An electric touring motorglider would be extremely efficient and could give zeppelins a run for the money.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by aww_dang on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:47PM (#28120670)
Especially for oversize or awkwardly shaped items.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by himinlomax on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:02PM (#28120886)
... as long as you don't need that freight while the weather is even slightly bad.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:24PM (#28121190)
Just like shipping things doesn't work because of storms, right?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by himinlomax on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:32PM (#28121297)
Airships just don't work in strong winds, no need for a storm. And a plane can quickly move out of a hazardous location. An airship cannot move quickly.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:53AM (#28125250)
>Airships just don't work in strong winds

Citation needed, my friend.

Reality check: do you think that the airships which regularly crossed the Atlantic ocean never experienced strong winds? Perhaps a trip to an ocean beach is in order, eh?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:10AM (#28126643)
Crashes of the UK R-101 (48 souls), and US Navy ZR-2 (44 souls), Macon (2 souls), Akron (73 souls), and Shenandoah (14 souls).

Winds and/or handling failures affected all of these airships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R38-class_airship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Macon_(ZRS-5)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Akron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Shenandoah_(ZR-1)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R101

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:39PM (#28137306)
You might notice that none of them actually crossed the Atlantic, because nobody except Germans knew how to build and operate airships.

None of the airships in your list were Zeppelins. None were ever providing passenger service.

Again, just examine the track record of Zeppelins, and compare it to the track record of contemporary aircraft safety-wise.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:01PM (#28137437)
The ZR-2 was in fact a Zeppelin, the Macon and Akron were built by the Goodyear-Zeppelin corporation, a joint venture. The Shennendoah (ZR-1) was based on a Zeppelin design (ZL-49) though built in and by the US.

Only the R-101 and R-38 were entirely independent designs (both UK).

The R-101 was specifically designed for passenger service, and was conducting a demonstration voyage when she crashed with major loss of life. The only reason it didn't enter commercial service was because it didn't survive long enough to do so.

Another British airship, R-100, flew from Britain to Canada.

Airships were built and operated by Germany, the UK, the US, French, Hugarian-Croatians, Brazil, and others.

The Macon, Akron, and Shennendoah were all lost at sea or over water.

There's nothing inherent to nationality, corporate ownership, military vs. civilian use, or passenger travel which changes the laws of physics under which airships operate. The craft are inherently vulnerable, slow, low, and dangerous.

Modern widebody jet aircraft have the highest safety record by passenger-mile travelled of any transportation mode. There are more people aloft at any moment of the day than airships carried in any year of commercial operation.

https://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/number-of...

Every claim of your comment proves false. A solid record.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:25PM (#28137595)
You said a lot of words, and none answered my original question, which was concerning airships on regular trans-Atlantic service.

Again, your list has 0 of those.

My point is that those airships existed; and weather was not a problem for them. That's a counterexample to the claim that inclement issue is necessarily an issue for airships.

The fact that neither the Brits nor Americans could build and operate airships successfully is irrelevant.

Also, you should look up the definition of the word "contemporary". I am obviously not comparing 1920s airships to 2020s jet planes.

Here is a simple claim: airships were the safest way to cross the Atlantic by air during the entire time of their operation.

No other aircraft type even made it across the Atlantic on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, Between 1931 and 1937 the Graf Zeppelin crossed the South Atlantic 136 times.

During its career, Graf Zeppelin had flown almost 1.7 million km (1,053,391 miles), the first aircraft to fly over a million miles. It made 144 oceanic crossings (143 across the Atlantic, and one of the Pacific), carried 13,110 passengers and 106,700 kg (235,300 lb) of mail and freight. It flew for 17,177 hours (717 days, or nearly two years), without injuring a passenger or crewman.

It was retired after the Hindenburg disaster. Notably, Hindenburg has crossed the Atlantic 36 times in passenger service - which is still 36 more than what the airplanes could do. And its destruction 1)had little to do with winds, and 2)was not nearly as deadly as the disintegrations of early jet airliners, like DH Comet, with 100% fatality rate, repeatedly.

OK, tell me again how "airships just don't work in strong winds", I'll listen.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:05AM (#28137897)
I was addressing "Airships just don't work in strong winds".

You subsequently shifted the goalposts.

There was no transatlantic passenger airplane travel until 1939. Two years after Hindenberg disaster. The comparison ... is largely pointless. Though given the lack of heavier-than-air transatlantic commercial passenger flight, and as a consequence, no heavier-than-air commercial passenger fatalities, if you insist on the comparison, airships still lose.

https://www.panam.org/explorations/681-1st-transatlantic-pas...

Passenger liner sea-based travel remained the principle mode of transatlantic crossing until the 1960s, with passenger air travel only becoming significant with the introduction of jet powered aircraft in the 1950s (and late 1950s at that).

You seem bent on insisting you're correct at the cost of denying all contradictory evidence. You fail to even acknowledge the points. Even where you have relevant points, they're lost due to that bias. That's strongly disengenuous, impugns credibility, is a bad look, and is quite frankly exceedingly tedious.

I'm done.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by chrisco255 on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:47PM (#28123258)
Is that true even if it has a large mass from cargo?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:07PM (#28123430)
Yes. It always has to have a much larger surface area in proportion to the weight it is carrying than any heavier than air craft, by definition.

That means it has to have more volume to lift more weight. More volume means more surface area (though not linearly!). More surface area means more impact from strong winds, updrafts, downdrafts.

And we haven’t figured out any plausible sort of propulsion that can even momentarily provide enough force to counteract something like a strong sudden downdraft without being too bulky to be practical.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hansvm on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:53PM (#28124112)
I think they still have a point though:

Let X be any linear measurement of the airship (like length). The forces on the airship are proportional to X^2, and the max mass is proportional to X^3. Consequently, acceleration from wind and whatnot tends to 0 as the airship size increases (when fully loaded).

Moreover, the necessary propulsion similarly scales with X^2 (which is convenient, because that's the amount of space you have to place the propulsion), while requiring increasingly negligible fractions of the ship's carrying capacity as the ship size increases.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:48PM (#28132629)
Nice!

Any chance you’d be interested in doing the math to figure out power to surface area ratios and what it would have to be to have the maneuvering capabilities of say a Cessna 172 in something like a blimp?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hansvm on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:03PM (#28134490)
If I'm not mistaken that's impossible as the size of the blimp increases (similar idea -- X^2 max power, X^3 mass, consequently acceleration and maneuverability are poor).

The point was more that heavy winds aren't an issue for a sufficiently large blimp, even without maneuverability, because the impact of the storm on a blimp is negligible.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:19AM (#28137978)
That doesn't make sense though - if the entire air mass is moving, and there is insufficient propulsion to go faster than the airmass is moving - then that airmass will carry the blimp into whatever that airmass hits? There is too much surface area for much else to happen right?

Microburst wind speeds can hit 270km/h or more. Updrafts can hit 10,000 ft/minute or more [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downburst][https://www.britann...

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hansvm on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:54PM (#28144531)
A few points:

- The O(1/X) acceleration property prevents a 300km/h wind from getting the blimp to speed quickly. The "entire air mass moving" doesn't change that; you'll see wind flowing around the blimp, wind becoming turbulent and reversing directions, wind losing velocity and converting to heat and sound, local portions of the blimp temporarily deforming, potential blimp damage, and all kinds of other effects from a microburst, but you won't see a high mass-to-surface-area-ratio object have its center of mass accelerate quickly from wind drag.

- The blimp _would_ need to have sufficient propulsion to counteract average wind forces over some time period. If you had a sustained downdraft with squared velocity averaging 270^2km/h over the surface of the blimp for any substantial length of time then the blimp would need equivalent upward propulsion to avoid _eventually_ crashing into the ground. For a sufficiently large blimp though, "eventually" can be extended as far as you'd like by reducing the acceleration induced by such forces and allowing you to average external forces over a longer time period before experiencing any negative repercussions.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by FabHK on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:23PM (#28136484)
I'd think the forces would still be formidable. But yes, assuming the airship withstands the forces, it would not be thrown around as much (specifically: the accelerations and displacements would be lower) as it gets bigger. That seems plausible to me, by your x^2/x^3 argument.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Dylan16807 on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:07PM (#28124505)
> Yes. It always has to have a much larger surface area in proportion to the weight it is carrying than any heavier than air craft, by definition.

What do you mean 'by definition'?

A heavier than air craft lifts with its surface. It has a relatively fixed surface area to weight ratio, no matter how big it gets.

A lighter than air craft lifts with its volume. The bigger you make it, the less surface area you have per weight.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:41PM (#28132556)
Heavier than air craft can be denser than air, by definition, and therefore have a lower ratio of surface area to weight - and hence less drag. This allows them to go fast (potentially), and power through problematic air turbulence with minimal impact.

Lighter than air craft must (by definition), have an overall density less than the surrounding gas. This means their surface area and volume for any notable weight must always be quite large, and the corresponding influence from the surrounding air mass is always much, much higher, and their ability to fight any change in direction is always much less.

Imagine what it would take to get a blimp to go the cruising speed of an airliner, and it might make more intuitive sense.

And even those airliners avoid storms when they can.

It might not be impossible - but it would require a degree of engineering not even considered here.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:05PM (#28137101)
The mistake you're making is to assume the two types of craft have similar-enough shapes that you can mix up surface area and volume. But even though a heavier than air craft has a lot less volume, it doesn't have to have less surface area. Planes are pretty flat, and have a much higher ratio of surface area to volume.

A small delicate plane can weigh less than 50 grams per square meter.

Or we could look at planes designed for human-powered flight. Those are ruthlessly optimized so you know they have no more surface area than necessary, and they weigh well under a kilogram per square meter, even if you added a motor on top.

The balloons google was using to lift mini cell towers, at 50 feet wide, had about 2 cubic meters of helium per square meter of surface area. So about two kilograms of payload per square meter. And if you made it bigger you could turn that into five or ten kilograms per square meter without even trying.

Is it extremely hard for a blimp to beat an airliner, which even for a plane has a small surface area? Yes. But lots and lots of other plane designs lose to a big blimp. Some of them even lose to a small blimp. Especially slow planes. And this is only talking about reasonable plane designs.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:15AM (#28138274)
Is it possible to make a heavier than air aircraft with terrible enough surface area to weight and power ratios that it will make a blimp seem easy to control in bad weather? Sure, I guess. I wasn't saying you couldn't if you read my comment - I was saying you can make a heavier than air aircraft with a LOWER surface area to weight/power, unlike lighter than air aircraft, so you can avoid being knocked around as much, have less drag, etc.

Heavier than air craft are far more versatile in general.

You can never get a lighter than air craft to an overall density higher than air by definition, and that is hugely limiting.

A 50 foot wide balloon (r=25ft), would have a surface area of 7853 square feet (729 m^2) if an ideal sphere. If you add up all of the wing and control surfaces on a 757 [https://www.b757.info/boeing-757-200-specifications/], you get 3992 square feet. Add another several thousand for the fuselage, and you're probably in the same ballpark.

The balloon you're talking about has a volume (assuming a perfect sphere, r=25ft) of 65,449 cubic feet (1853 m^3). Per [https://www.airships.net/helium-hydrogen-airships/], that seems to pencil out at around 4000 lbs of lift for helium, and 4500 lbs of lift for hydrogen (in 'real world' situations), add 20% to be closer to ideal. Or 2.5m^3 of gas per square meter of surface area. But the literal maximum amount of lifting force you can get is 1.01kg/m^3 with helium and 1.2kg/m^3 with hydrogen.

That really isn't much lift for something that big. You could scale it up, but then you're talking more surface area no? a LOT more surface area? We'll figure that out later.

Said 757 weight will vary from 130,000 lbs-255,000 lbs (empty to max takeoff weight), or 59k-72k lbs of payload if configured as a freighter. Each engine produces 36,000-43,000 lbs of thrust depending on model.

So for the 757, it is lifting (payload alone, on top of it's own weight, fuel, etc.) 3.4kg/m^2, and empty, is lifting 7.5kg/m^2. If you look at max takeoff weight, it's hitting 32kg/m^2. Way more if you care about just the airfoils of course. And to hit that takeoff, it is likely going over 200+km/h.

For a balloon to lift the same weight as the 757 at max takeoff weight, you need one with a volume of at least 114520 m^3 (for helium, ideal) or 96388 m^3 (for hydrogen, ideal), which is a minimum of r=30m for helium and r=28m for hydrogen (ideal). That is a sphere approximately 95-100ft in diameter.

That comes out to a surface area of 11309m^2 for helium and 9852m^2 for hydrogen (assuming perfect spheres, which don't happen).

That is 6.1x the surface area for helium, and 5.3x for hydrogen, assuming everything is perfect - and there is zero way you could drag that through the atmosphere or control it in any way like you can a 757 (or a Cessna, even), even if you used the same engines.

And even if you use a balloon big enough to literally lift a 757 at max takeoff weight, you're weight to surface area ratio is just hitting 10kg/m^2. 1/3 of the 757, and that means you have 3x more 'surface' to drag through the air for the same available weight (aka power/airframe) budget.

so you need to be talking multiple max-takeoff-weight-of-a-757 worth of ballon lifting capacity before you start getting in the same ballpark from a raw 'surface exposed vs weight' perspective. If we use weight as a raw proxy for power (roughly probably correct), you get the same setup.

And from a air resistance/drag perspective (what we care about here), it still isn't even all that close due to airfoil shape vs giant spheres. If you're using a blimp/zepplin shape, you're trading off airframe weight for aerodynamics, but it doesn't help as much - you end up having to spend a lot of your weight budget structuring it more like an airfoil, because the density still has to be low, so the shape has to be much bigger, and you have less budget for engines - so the heavier than air craft actually have an even bigger advantage. But even doing these very basic comparisons show it pretty clearly enough.

If you need to move through air faster than the air itself is moving, density helps - by reducing the surface area (and hence impact of these winds) and allowing you to have more engines, or a fancier airframe, or whatever. If you need to resist weather and similar forms of strong, high speed wind currents and changes, you need to be able to move through the air fast, and preferably have a strong frame.

Lighter than air craft are hindered in this by having a cap on their density, and for buildable/practical sized craft, high surface areas to weight ratios (which is a proxy for strength of airframes and available power).

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @02:26AM (#28138720)
> I was saying you can make a heavier than air aircraft with a LOWER surface area to weight/power, unlike lighter than air aircraft, so you can avoid being knocked around as much, have less drag, etc.

You didn't say that you "can" make a heavier than air craft with a better ratio. You said that "by definition" lighter than air craft will have a worse ratio than any heavier than air craft. That's a very different statement! (And I'm being fair, I'm interpreting "any" as "any reasonable".)

> You can never get a lighter than air craft to an overall density higher than air by definition, and that is hugely limiting.

That's true, but the statement I objected to was that weight:surface-area is worse by definition, not any statement about volume.

> 757 stuff

The problem with that chain of logic is that you're starting with some of the best planes around for surface area vs. weight, and then trying to make a blimp that beats them.

Of course that's super hard to do!

But if you take a slow ultralight plane instead, you'll see that it's not very hard to beat with a blimp. The kind of plane that cruises at 35mph and not 500mph.

The truth isn't that [reasonable] planes automatically beat [reasonable] blimps. It's that planes similar to a 757 beat reasonable blimps. That's a much weaker statement.

There are lots of reasonable plane designs that might only hit 5kg/m^2, and it's easy to make a blimp that beats that. Or the 10kg/m^2 in your math, that's not something that takes unreasonable materials to reach in a blimp.

-

tl;dr: If you demand a blimp beat 30kg/m^2, it probably won't happen. But in the 2-10kg/m^2 range, sometimes planes beat blimps and sometimes blimps beat planes, using reasonable designs for both. "[an airship] always has to have a much larger surface area in proportion to the weight it is carrying than any heavier than air craft, by definition." is a false statement.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by lazide on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:35AM (#28138394)
A factor I forgot to mention - heavier than air craft, because of their better surface area to weight ratio (ability to be more dense) can pack in more engines for a given amount of surface area - and go faster, and produce more lift per unit of surface area, due to the reduced drag.

So heavier than air craft do NOT have a fixed surface area to weight ratio, they have a surface area/airfoil to power ratio, which can vary widely depending on the effectiveness of the engine.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:12AM (#28126653)
Cargo mass adds to structural stresses, and subtracts from mass available for increased strength and resilience.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:14AM (#28137951)
>Is that true even if it has a large mass from cargo?

Nope. It's just plain false.

To wit:

During its career, Graf Zeppelin had flown almost 1.7 million km (1,053,391 miles), the first aircraft to fly over a million miles. It made 144 oceanic crossings (143 across the Atlantic, and one of the Pacific), carried 13,110 passengers and 106,700 kg (235,300 lb) of mail and freight. It flew for 17,177 hours (717 days, or nearly two years), without injuring a passenger or crewman.

It never crashed, and was retired at the dawn of WWII.

The huge airships get a bad rep because the only country which could successfully build and operate them was Nazi Germany.

As for dirigibles operated by the US, the UK, and the USSR... yup, none of them actually worked.

Doesn't say anything about the vehicle type.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by mschuster91 on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:16PM (#28123503)
Even the old Zeppelin airships never had a major issue with strong winds - and these days we have satellites and aircraf-based weather radar.

Storms are no danger for airships.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by abecedarius on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:31PM (#28124307)
That's not how I remember it from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_Rule:_Autobiography_of_a... though yes we have much better weather forecasting now.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by romwell on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:27AM (#28138035)
You mean, the book that wasn't about a Zeppelin? As in, an aircraft made by the Zeppelin corporation.

The British never learned how to make dirigibles[1], the Americans never learned how to operate them; all non-German airship projects were failures.

That's why Zeppelin became synonymous with "rigid dirigible airship". Because all other projects failed.

[1] R100 was a good design... but it was scrapped because of politics, and never entered service.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by zardo on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:33AM (#28126082)
If you look up the ship dispositions several were torn from their moorings and wrecked in storms. And several crashed in thunderstorms.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jfk13 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:34PM (#28121319)
I suspect airships are much more vulnerable to bad weather than most other forms of transport.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by outworlder on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:28PM (#28123109)
If only we had a way to monitor the weather patterns in the entire globe and maybe even predict them...
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:13PM (#28121039)
Well certainly that's an edge case. I don't know anything, honestly, but seems to me TFA is talking about wholesale distributor type cargo, not pizza deliveries. I guess waiting a day for a storm to pass doesn't kill anything, and airships can actually loiter in that time.

I'm trying to think of a (non aquatic) case where rail is worse than airships though. If we were to invest in thousands of vehicles for distributing machinery, I'm guessing the average joe like me would vote rail. Unless we're talking going to a place where the infrastructure isn't good enough to support traditional delivery.

For setting up a base in Greenland or the antarctic, I bet airships are really attractive. Or delivering bulk cargo to hawaii, perhaps.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by vineyardmike on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:27PM (#28121230)
> I'm trying to think of a case where rail is worse than airships though

You can ship non-standard cargo via air easier than rail if its wide. Eg. Moving a wide machinery, or parts to large construction project.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jcims on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:47PM (#28122715)
One downside of rail is that new routes seem to always be decade long, multi-billion dollar projects.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by fanf2 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:44PM (#28121455)
Airships are better than trains at crossing the sea
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by jvanderbot on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:15PM (#28121809)
Sure, I was thinking any nation that wants to move cargo over the sea would use ships.

So what conditions other than unestablished areas make airships better than sea ships?

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by ClumsyPilot on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:07PM (#28123836)
Speed
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by giantrobot on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:58AM (#28125274)
A cargo airship is slower than a freight jet and only a few times faster than a cargo ship.

Even the relatively "small" PANAMAX container ships can carry 5000TEU. If you had an airship that could carry 50TEU (I'm being extremely generous there) you'd need 100 trips (200 total ocean crossings crossings) to equal a single smaller sized container ship.

If your airships are only four times faster than container ships you'll need 50 of them to carry the same amount of freight as that single ship.

If 20 days is too long a wait air freight (heavier than air) already exists. It also deals with weather by simply flying over it. So you'd need some sort of cargo that was too time sensitive for sea freight but not so sensitive or valuable enough for traditional air freight. But it couldn't be too sensitive or valuable because airships are very sensitive to weather, wind especially, so can only really operate in very clear weather with low winds at departure and arrival.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by throw37388 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:18PM (#28121116)
Source needed! Airships are quite inefficient, have high air drag and are slow.

They are more comparable to ships, trains or cars. And here their inefficiency is very bad.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by drivers99 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:09PM (#28120985)
That's what the article actually said. I think the parent post switched from summarizing to contributing their own thought instead.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by FabHK on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:26PM (#28121215)
(you're right, I clarified)
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by robbedpeter on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:35PM (#28124329)
Imagine: Trash airships that can deposit loads at flying solar furnace platforms (equipped with co2 capture technology) to burn everything. Use various stages of processing to chemically or physically extract commercially valuable material, like phosphorous, then turn the rest into slag - not perfect, but one helluva lot better than burying and wasting the raw trash. Use the captured co2 and solar power alongside the artificial leaf tech to produce synthgas and other fuel.

Solar and wind platforms could anchored to cables on the ground, with municipal battery storage on the ground, then use airships to swap charged battery packs from centralized power stations.

A cellular/modular approach to ship design could prevent hindenburg disasters. Individual carbon fiber balloons could be made to link together, and they'd be during enough that even if you detonate a cell, its neighbors remain intact. Cells as small as a cubic meter would still provide lift while limiting the explosive potential - make the cells "smart" and you could design resilient airships that failed gracefully, even under fire, for military and security sensitive applications.

Platforms could be made huge, big enough to build houses, factories, hospitals, or resorts.

Airships don't have to be blimps. It's more practical than seasteading and probably multiple orders of magnitude cheaper in combined maintenance and development.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by Synaesthesia on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:50AM (#28126538)
You know hol little CO2 you capture with solar power right? And whats the incentive to buils these fantastical structures?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by robbedpeter on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:38AM (#28128057)
It can be solar concentrator style generation and furnaces if you think big enough. Mobility and new frontiers could be enough incentive, but cargo transport, power infrastructure, hydrogen generation, and waste recovery would be advantageous. Large fixed platforms could solve a big part of the offloading problems. If the cells use standardized fittings, then cargo stations could swap hydrogen for co2 as ballast during offloading.

Aerial platforms would be great for telescopes and helicopters, too.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:42AM (#28126484)
What possible advantage is there to lofting furnaces and trash transport rather than accomplishing both on the ground?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:34AM (#28126791)
Yes, we could build floating cities above the clouds with always sun for energy and little wind.

(people would have to be indoors, though above a certain height)

Air nomads.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by tintor on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:03AM (#28125877)
Would cubic meter cells work? You'd have a lot of material for small cells, compared to one large cell blimp.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by pitaj on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:32PM (#28120472)
Airships are being investigated as a method of shipping to remote locations without ship, train, or truck access.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dheera on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:07PM (#28124794)
What about autonomous cargo airships filled with hydrogen? That way if they blow up, they don't injure anyone.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by post-it on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:30AM (#28127109)
They'll still fall to the ground.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by DelightOne on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:52PM (#28123303)
That and a Starlink not bound to a location - would be awesome. Would it be possible to live on such a ship?
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by dsr_ on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:14PM (#28123491)
People live in RVs. The real question is: is it practical to have an airship with the top covered in photovoltaic cells sufficient to run all your normal electrical needs?

A residential-class airship would probably be limited to visual flight rules conditions and have to land or at least be docked every night. You'll want to do that for a variety of comfort reasons, too -- water is heavy, so finding a campground with electrical and water hookups would be preferred.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by m4rtink on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:44PM (#28123687)
Storms could be an issue - storm won't usually sink a houseboat or destroy a RV trailer.

But it might very well smash a residential airship into the ground even if securely moored just due to the sheer size of its gas envelope being effectively a giant sail.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by mschuster91 on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:13PM (#28123483)
> Would it be possible to live on such a ship?

People live on house boats smaller than early Zeppelins. The challenge will be supplies and human excretions - if you live on such a thing and it's anchored over land you can't just drop your feces on a whim.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by postalrat on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:33PM (#28120485)
Imagine an open deck on an airship. Or at least being able to open your window.

Propellers far away from passengers to minimize any noise.

Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by darkerside on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:29AM (#28127980)
Once internet comes from satellites as a matter of course, I have little doubt we'll all be living in airships.
Re:Bring back hydrogen lifting gas by h0l0cube on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:12AM (#28125610)
> Edit to add: > (Leisure air travel/Safari is my own pipe dream. The article suggests cargo)

Please, people who write tl;drs, read the whole article so you don't miss the punch line. The last 6 paragraphs (25%) of the article is devoted to cargo being the best value proposition