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Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:07PM (#22739718)
Look at the cockpit of any modern airliner and you will see screens, but they are never interactive. There are hardware buttons, dials and lights all over the place. A tactile interface is both more obvious, sturdy and more stable, and therefore safer. The problem that touch interfaces solve, ever since the advent of the first smart phone, is that the interface is now dynamic. You can change it without having to replace the hardware. Here's the catch: for safety critical interfaces, YOU DO NOT want the interface to change. The point is moot.

Touch screens will hopefully never make it into any critical pilot systems, because safety and stability matters to airline manufacturers, current ongoing scandals notwithstanding. I only wish automobile manufacturers took their job equally seriously.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by CivBase on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:17PM (#22739827)
I work for an avionics manufacturer and I can assure you most of our upcoming comercial systems (and even a healthy portion of government ones) feature touch screen inputs.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by squarefoot on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:49PM (#22741029)
Touch screens add multiple points of failure to a device that, if properly built, would last decades. A single glitch in a software driving a screen could render useless all touch inputs displayed on it, information loss aside. I'm all for mechanical switches everywhere. As for potentiometers, sliders etc, we already have optical and mechanical encoders that hardly fail, or if/when they do, it happens gracefully leaving enough time for replacement. To me, the reason for touch screens is either cost or aesthetics, or both.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by vel0city on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:06PM (#22741211)
In many of the newer systems, all those physical dials and switches are just inputs to the computer system which ultimately decides to do what the user is requesting. A bug which would prevent inputs from working right on a touchscreen could also happen on reading inputs on other systems. Not that I'm arguing for touchscreen controls, just that these days having a physical knob does not mean you're directly manipulating things. Software glitches can still muck up physical controls.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by im3w1l on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:52PM (#22743646)
> In many of the newer systems, all those physical dials and switches are just inputs to the computer system which ultimately decides to do what the user is requesting.

Even so, a program for processing a switch or dial can be really short and simple. You can print it out on a sheet and check and double check every line of code for to make sure it's correct and all possibilities are accounted for.

A program handling a touchscreen will be complicated. Millions of lines of code. Maybe even billions. The best you can hope for is empirically verifying it's mostly correct most of the time.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by travisgriggs on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:27PM (#22743928)
You've done a lot of programming for hardware switches and such then?

I do some. And the last device we built, we still fight with a simple rotary switch. You have to do things like debounce inputs that seem like obvious binary switches. Getting the debounce windowing right can be just as "guessy". And guess what the highest point of failure on said device is. That selector switch. Had similar experience with buttons. I think the software part is just two forms of the Law of Conservation of Ugly.

I do like tactile better, but more for affordance/discoverability (e.g. ergonomic) issues than what you're driving at above.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by lukevp on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:39PM (#22744039)
Yeah processing switch and button and encoder data manually is terrible. Once you install a library to wrap this hardware device in a sane process, how different is that than getting an x/y pixel coordinate from a touchscreen? Touch technology is incredibly reliable. I touch my phone probably 5k times a day or more and I don’t have touch failures, and I carry it around with me and get debris on it and drop it off of tables and all that too. I would argue that a touch interface is one of the most reliable from a hardware standpoint despite not being tactile.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by fludlight on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:14AM (#22745600)
If anyone else is wondering what debouncing is:

https://my.eng.utah.edu/~cs5780/debouncing.pdf

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by kieckerjan on Thursday April 02, 2020 @06:11AM (#22757573)
Haha, this is actually a remarkably funny read with some grizzled, hard-won bits of wisdom sprinkled in.

"It’s surprising how many of those derelicts hanging out at the waterfront bars pick an almost random time constant. “The boys ‘n me, we jest figger sumpin like 5 msec”. Shortchanging a real analysis starts even a clean-cut engineer down the slippery slope to the wastrel vagabond’s life."

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by viraptor on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:16AM (#22745614)
Pressure / proximity info is just as noisy and requires its own version of denouncing and x/y jitter handling on top. (Is it a click/drag/hovering over?) My partner can't even stop accidentally registering right-clicks on her laptop touchpad, which should be a really polished experience these days.

I'm not sure I buy touchscreens ever being simpler to handle. (or even in the similar range - they're strictly harder)

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by DonHopkins on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:33PM (#22745034)
Even modern AAA computer games sometimes miss mouse clicks, because they foolishly poll for transitions of the button up/down state in the main loop, for each frame they render, instead of properly tracking the OS event queue.

It's a very common (and lazy) way of programming games (and other more mission-critical apps): naively polling the input device state in the main simulation or rendering loop, instead of actually responding to each and every queued operating system event like mouse clicks.

It's entirely possible to get multiple mouse down/move/up/click events per render frame, if the system has frozen or stalled for any reason (which happens all the time in the real world). But polling just can't deal with that, so it sometimes ignores legitimate user input (often at a critical time, when other things are happening).

So it's still unfortunately quite common for many apps to sometimes miss quick mouse clicks or screen touches, just because the system freezes up for an instant or lags behind (like when the CPU overheats and the fan turns on madly and SpeedStep clocks the CPU waaaay down, or even the web browser opens up another tab, or anything else blocks the user interface thread), and it just doesn't notice the quick down/up mouse button transition that it would have known about if it were actually tracking operating system events instead of polling.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by chongli on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:56PM (#22752310)
I had a microwave that used a digital knob that was completely screwed up, from a debouncing perspective. You would turn the knob to try and add 30 seconds to the time and it would stutter between 5-10 seconds for a bit and then shoot up to 3 minutes and then you’d try to drop it down to 30 seconds and end up stuck between 1-2 minutes. It was infuriating! The old mechanical microwave dials were way more reliable than that piece of junk!
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by crististm on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:24AM (#22746758)
Are you debouncing on tactile or is the hardware doing it for you?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by whatshisface on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:31AM (#22748294)
In an ancient textbook I was reading, they were explaining how to debounce with transistors, capacitors and resistors - so at one time in history debounce was done in hardware.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dkersten on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:41AM (#22747679)
In my own brief stint in (non-critical) hardware development, all debouncing was done manually in software.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by smokelegend on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:42AM (#22749840)
It all depends on application.... and perspective...

Hardware debouncing works well for most applications but may not be financially rewarding at scale. With time and effort software debouncing can render sometimes better/good or good enough results as hardware..

Remember the saying, "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail..."

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by brokenmachine on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:22AM (#22756170)
Mechanical switches and rotary controls require debouncing which is no picnic.

I can 100% tell from your comment that you've never had to work with one.

It's less science than black magic to avoid double presses or missed presses.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Gibbon1 on Thursday April 02, 2020 @01:39AM (#22756521)
I've done a bunch of debouncing switch inputs, keypad, keyboard, rotory switches. And wrote some test code for capcitive touch display (long time ago)

It's the kinda problem that will tend to bite you in the butt if you aren't aware of all the gotchas. Difficulty is they are application specific. But I wouldn't describe the code as particularly complicated.

Most of this stuff a crusty old neckbeard embedded programmer can do half drunk on Friday afternoon.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by brokenmachine on Monday April 13, 2020 @08:21PM (#22861633)
So because an expert can do it easily means it's easy? In that case literally anything is easy.

OP was saying that mechanical switches could be deterministic, which is something that I haven't experienced.

I do agree that there is less to go wrong than a complicated touchscreen interface however.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ijidak on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @01:07AM (#22745890)
Billions? That sounds like a vast overestimate, no?

Are there any programs that approach a billion lines of code?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mgkimsal on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:05AM (#22747498)
I'd think a few npm dependencies should do the trick ;)

a quick search brought up https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/the-biggest-codebases-in-h... which reports google's codebase is around 2 billion LOC. MS Office comes in close to 50 million, for example.

Not sure how accurate these are, but seem to give some rough comparisons, and yeah, not too many things are billions of LOC.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by collyw on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:06AM (#22748120)
I wouldn't be surprised, the amount of crap that gets downloaded for a simple react app is incredible.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Judgmentality on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:52PM (#22744531)
> A program handling a touchscreen will be complicated. Millions of lines of code. Maybe even billions.

I think you're off by a few orders of magnitude.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/millions-lines-of-code/

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by balnaphone on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:21PM (#22744973)
The phone switch for Nortel's Meridian PBX system circa 1994, which supported SONET and IP, had about 16 million lines of code. The complexity of a touchscreen is less than 1%, maybe less than 0.1% of that. Lines of code, however an absurd metric, in this case does say something. I'm just not sure exactly what, though.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by flattone on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:54PM (#22745146)
Isnt code just vastly different... abstracted from 94’ era lingo?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by bl0b on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:44PM (#22744813)
Interesting link. Can anyone explain why a car needs so much code?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Judgmentality on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:23PM (#22744980)
Instead of having a single computer that stores all the code, automobiles have lots of embedded systems with their own code and hardware, and lots of systems designed for validating safety critical functionality. When I say lots, I mean it's usually several dozen and can be over 100. Since many of these need to meet special regulations and oftentimes require hard real-time characteristics, this tends to add to the complexity significantly.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by numpad0 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:23AM (#22746231)
Apparently a lot of it is just generated templates coming from commercial SDKs. Adding to that, a car is a set of distinct embedded systems interacting in a sort of a ladder network topology rather than a vertebrate analog like multi-core PCs, so a lot of code in a car would be redundant or has little footprint restrictions.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by 6nf on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:23PM (#22744982)
I mean ... we all know a car does not need that much code
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by TylerE on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:21AM (#22745648)
Really, why do you know that?

I would expect a car to have tons of code.

Think of all the functions...

Engine management, Engine monitoring, Powertrain control, Emissions, Diagnostics, Infotainment, Satnav, Climate Control, Traction Control, ABS, Anti-collision radar, Cruise control, Lane keeping, Backup camera, Parking sensors...

Now keep in mind that these hundreds of components exist in many many possible configurations so the system needs to handle having certain hardware available or not, and also handle a multitude of failure modes gracefully.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dkersten on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:48AM (#22747717)
Perhaps because cars ran just fine (albeit with fewer features) for a long time with zero lines of code.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dzhiurgis on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:26PM (#22753693)
So did horses without any gasoline
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ClumsyPilot on Thursday April 02, 2020 @11:42PM (#22766140)
Yeah, and so did banks, and so did airplanes.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dkersten on Monday April 06, 2020 @09:10AM (#22793382)
So the more important question is: did adding software improve things (enough to be worth the “cost”)?

With cars, there are certainly many things where it did improve things: satnav, reverse camera, traction control etc, but also some where it made a perfectly working system worse (ie the “fixed” something that wasn’t broken): touchscreen dashboards.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by 6nf on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:44PM (#22753835)
Because my car has exactly zero lines of code and it runs just fine.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by _trampeltier on Thursday April 02, 2020 @06:30AM (#22757646)
I guess in cars they use less (public) librarys because of safety. So there own libs are included in LOC. If you look at a modern Microsoft licence, they list tons of used open source libs in there products. I guess if you include all the librarys, the LOC number should be much higher.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by twomoretime on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:44PM (#22742979)
Is this a good place for redundant microservices?

Each service handles data from a handful of physical of physical knobs.

At least that way you don't have the UI as a single point of failure.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mattmanser on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:12PM (#22743268)
There is no good point for "redundant" microservices.

They are, by very definition, an additional point of failure as you're always adding an additional interface. They're good for scaling, not for redundancy, and even that's wishful thinking for most applications.

EDIT: You could argue that microservices might free up the UI thread from locking mistakes, but if your team is going to make locking mistakes, you're also going to make mistakes in the microservice interfaces, so what's the point?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by twomoretime on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:50PM (#22744112)
It's not about minimizing points of failure, it's about removing singular points of failure. Perhaps "redundant" was the wrong word but the point is instead of having a single UI component (touchscreen/UI thread) which can cause the whole system to fail, if you group buttons/knobs into individual microservices they are unlikely to all go down simultaneously.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mattmanser on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:31PM (#22744750)
I don't get how we can explain it in a simpler way? If you add a microservice, you're adding another point of failure. You add another interaction, you add more code. Add more code, you add more bugs.

It's pretty much the only empirical thing we have in software engineering, more code = more bugs.

Lots of little microservices means lots of extra code means lots of extra bugs.

Plus you've got to manage how they all interact. Which microservice has priotity? Did you even think of that? The breaking microservice? Or the volume microservice? Did you even think of that or try and test that? Your breaks get disabled every time you turn up the volume?

Whoops, you just killed a thousand people with your "redundant" microservices.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hvidgaard on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @01:27AM (#22745980)
Erlang is build around the idea of microservices and message parsing. It's by far one of the best languages we have to make fail tolerant programs - it was invented to solve exactly that problem. While it does not mean you can take every program in any language and make them into a micro service architecture, it shows that if implemented correctly, the idea of microservices and messages absolutely increase reliability.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by asfarley on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:49AM (#22746611)
Do you object to redundancy under all circumstances, or only when it’s preceded by “microservice”?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dkersten on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:50AM (#22747731)
If you add one microservice, you add a point if failure, but if you then add a few redundant copies of that microservice, for failover, then you don’t add a point of failure.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by yakshaving_jgt on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:57PM (#22745496)
So… You're suggesting reducing the impact of potential error… By increasing the surface area of potential error…?!
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dkersten on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:54AM (#22747750)
It depends on the error. If its a logic error that will deterministically break all instances, then sure. If, on the other hand, its a transient error that a backup copy of the service can avoid, then redundancy adds safety. Sometimes safety critical software has multiple redundant units which need to agree, too, for example.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by robocat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:13PM (#22741983)
Multiple physical knobs and buttons add multiple points of failure: moving parts fail and even worse, they often fail intermittently. We all have that experience. Even optical encoders fail (I’ve had one fail on an engine, and obviously consumer mice, or the connectors fail).

A modern touch screen is superbly reliable because it has no moving parts, and it can be tested. The (consumer grade) iPad touchscreen is very reliable.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mcsb4 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:25PM (#22743388)
I had a smartphone that at some point started to randomly create touch events. Kind of like if you put it in your pocket while the screen is unlocked.

I don't remember any physical light switch that ever switch on or off by itself.

In an aircraft flying through turbulences I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing that all switches are pyhsical. Try to use your smartphone while jogging...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by avianlyric on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:16PM (#22744294)
Comparing a light switch to the switches and dials found in an aircraft is a it like comparing a light switch to a keyboard key.

Yeah they’re both switches, but size is incredibly important, and small mechanical devices are finicky and don’t produce nice clean digital output (that’s a lie that electronic engineers tell software engineers to keep things simple).

So yeah I’m sure you’ve never seen a light switch fail, but I bet you’ve seen a keyboard fail (especially if you’ve spent any time around a recent MacBook).

But I do agree with your point on using a touchscreen in turbulence. A counter point is that there are probably hundreds of controls or settings on a plane that you never touch during turbulence, possibly that you never touch in flight (like telling the flight computer how much cargo you’re carrying). Stuff like that is ideal for a touchscreen.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by JensRex on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:20PM (#22742065)
A mechanical switch is easy and cheap to fix or replace. A touch screen is the opposite. It cannot be repaired, only replaced. A switch can usually be cleaned easily, to restore its function. And proper quality switches can be actuated millions of times before failure.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by robocat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:15PM (#22743300)
> A mechanical switch is easy and cheap to fix or replace.

Not if it is in an airplane. Think of all the QC steps required to track the production, storage, shipping, installation, testing, etcetera for the replacement of a single switch. If a switch has failed it needs to be inspected to understand the reason for failure (no switch should fail; tracked to understand if it is a batch failure, plus other steps). I am only making an educated guess here.

> A switch can usually be cleaned easily, to restore its function.

Ummm, you think they put known failed parts back in planes? I think not. They do fix major parts, but the QC for that would be insane. You would make a switch to be hermetic and add anti-tampering - a manufacturer of any safety related device doesn’t want it to be “fixed”. Items are designed to be maintained (with proper schedules), or replaced.

> And proper quality switches can be actuated millions of times before failure.

On average? Or does it have a bathtub curve? Yes, quality switches are insanely reliable, but so are touchscreens.

If you have a variety of 50 switches and knobs, then the reliability is worse than 50x worse, because every item has it’s own reliability curve, and it only takes one failure to muck up your day.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by JensRex on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:50AM (#22749171)
>Not if it is in an airplane.

Even less so if it's on the space station. Or on a Mars rover. But we're talking about cars. Something a lot of people like to mend for themselves.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by robocat on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @05:20PM (#22753646)
OP context of this thread is touch panels in aeroplanes, not cars.

I can say that an intermittent switch failure is hard to diagnose and potentially costly. The dash on a 2007 Ford I got cheaply had an intermittent fault where the whole dash would shutdown, and headlights would go off, while driving. Switching ignition off and on would fix it, so I presumed it just needed a reset. It was actually the barrel switch of the key - intermittent enough to cause a lot of dangerous trouble but hard to diagnose.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by JackRabbitSlim on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:17PM (#22742694)
Point of fact; A touch interface digitizer and the LCD screen are two separate components just often glued and sold as a single unit. Replacing a digitizer, or a screen should be no more difficult than swapping out an analog component with a proper modular physical layout and connectors.

A cheap phone or tablet hardly represent best of breed for the technology as a whole.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by her5ahber5h on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:36PM (#22744425)
Another factor is having to keep a larger variety of inventory for mechanical switches, vs a single touch screen SKU standardized across many models.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by shripadk on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:45AM (#22745781)
What happens if an object impacts a touchscreen and it breaks? I have my screens break (even behind a screen protector) and has failed to respond to touch. Imagine you are flying a plane and the touchscreen breaks due to impact. All your inputs are centralized behind that one touchscreen and you can no longer operate it. Wouldn't it be then better if there were multiple points of failure? You are decentralizing the impact a failure can have. Sometimes having multiple points of failure is a good thing. That way a failure in one component won't affect the other components.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by fleetingmoments on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:58AM (#22746907)
Have a spare screen that you can just slot in and carry on.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cesarb on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @07:13AM (#22747531)
The airplane cockpits I've read about have multiple screens, with knobs selecting the function of each screen (and which of the redundant flight computers control each screen), so a failed screen can be replaced by selecting its function on another screen. This makes more sense (and is simpler) than carrying a replacement screen (which would be dead weight most of the time) and designing a hot-swap mechanism (which would be yet another potential point of failure).
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by v8engine on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:16AM (#22747246)
While your plane is falling from the sky?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by sudosysgen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:16PM (#22742017)
Anecdotaly, my touch screen devices's screens are less durable than my mechanical keyboard, but I agree with your overall points, touch screens can be made incredibly durable.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by deskamess on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#22742221)
Very interesting... I wonder what it would take for a touchscreen keyboard to be as reliable or live as long as a mechanical keyboard. Maybe it already does, but my mental picture and experience of phone screens getting flaky, and taking secondary+ swipes does not give me the confidence a mechanical keyboard does.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by bregma on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:46PM (#22742370)
If they can make a durable touchscreen keyboard with a good click sound and feel and reasonable key travel and resistance, and that doesn't get crudded up with skin oils and food film, I'm willing to pay big bucks for it.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by AdrianB1 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:24AM (#22748251)
Multiple physical knows will never fail all at once like a single touchscreen can. As a small plane pilot I prefer to have as many independent systems as possible; I use an iPad for instruments and navigation, but every single function is duplicated by a separate instrument, so if I lose the iPad for any reason I have the instruments in the cockpit. I had several incidents where single components failed, but I was able to safely land the plane every time. Hardware failures are as much as a problem as software failures and dual-redundant critical systems are far better than multi-functional devices.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by thesmok on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:54AM (#22746359)
The iPad touchscreen is very reliable until you splash water on it. I don't think splashing a cup of water onto 1995 car dashboard would trigger any of the buttons.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by GuiA on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:27PM (#22741452)
There are plenty of individual use cases where touch screens make sense. The interactive map as it is enabled by the multitouch screen, with arbitrary rescale and repositioning and display of arbitrary layers of data, all handled at the speed of thought, is something unmatched by any other object or interface, for one example amongst many.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by omilu on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:22PM (#22753141)
A wet finger makes my device go ballistic.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by est31 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:53PM (#22740319)
In airplanes touchscreens are less of an issue than in cars. In cars you have to have a hand on the wheel 99% of the time, and your gaze on the road. You can't afford interaction with a complicated non-haptic touch screen menu.

In airplanes it's different. Here, outside of takeoff and landing, it's OK to look at a screen for 10 seconds while interacting with it with a hand.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mamon on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:05PM (#22743720)
Not to mention that airplaines usually have TWO pilots onboard, so one can use touch screens while the other watches the sky ahead. Cars, on the other hand, have just one person in driver's seat.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by redis_mlc on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:54PM (#22741770)
> it's OK to look at a screen for 10 seconds

Not really. Pilots are supposed to be visually looking for traffic 90% of the time, and the rest scanning instruments.

So to be heads-down for 10 seconds, the non-flying pilot would have to arrange that with the flying pilot.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by criley2 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:01PM (#22741852)
Under VFR sure, obviously under IFR they are looking at the instruments as much as 100% of the time, including the instruments which inform them if planes are nearby, and instruments which inform them of their location, direction, and all of the variables therein.

It would be madness if pilots had to rely solely on their eyes to locate other planes nearby. There is thankfully instruments which do this as well.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by zig on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:09PM (#22741933)
In VMC you still have a responsibility to see and avoid, regardless of whether you're on an instrument flight plan or not. (Ref: Regulation 14 CFR Part 91.113 (b))

Radar coverage has become ubiquitous in most places, but there's not universal coverage. Heads-up time is very important unless you're flying in actual IMC.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by innocenat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:29PM (#22742183)
Can't find equivalent rule from ICAO, is this regulation US only?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:41PM (#22742949)
Refer to ICAO Annex 11 - it's not the exact point being made by the GP, but note that traffic separation for IFR traffic from VFR traffic is only provided in Class A, B and C airspace.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @08:59AM (#22748077)
Or, you know just flying the autopilot, which many do like 90% of the flying time...
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by blattimwind on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:47PM (#22743008)
I think what GP is trying to say is that because your average airlines has around 10+ km of altitude to loose before rapid disassembly commences, which takes a non-trivial amoun of time, compared to a car, which can go on a short and unintentional offroad trip within a few seconds or less.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by AdrianB1 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:33AM (#22748314)
No, you don't. you can fly over high mountains, having a lot less distance between the plane and the terrain, but how you lose altitude is more important: just a single km drop can be unrecoverable if exceeding VNE and losing a wing in the process.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by AdrianB1 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:30AM (#22748285)
Most planes in the world are not the big airliners, but smaller planes where single pilot operation is very frequent and many planes do not have a complex autopilot, but usually a 2 or 3 axis stabilization. Also in turbulent weather looking for 10 seconds at a screen can induce motion sickness even to seasoned pilots. We have to do that for map checks and calculations, not a pleasure.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by vsareto on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:36AM (#22748993)
Huh, I wonder if they can use a measurement to adjust the refresh rate based on turbulence. I think they did this for the space shuttle experiencing vibrations to make a screen readable.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by AdrianB1 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:47AM (#22749124)
It is not the refresh rate, it's the fact that you are looking at a screen that is not moving so much while the airplane and you body is shaking; your internal sensors are telling you are moving, the eyes do not correlate the information, you get motion sickness. I had this problem in my first 50 hours of flying, sometimes even after 100 hours.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by vwcx on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:57PM (#22740373)
Not necessarily. There are many moments during the operation of an aircraft where full attention is paramount. Yes, you see a pilot leaving the cockpit to use the lavatory while the co-pilot is monitoring the autopilot, but the margins are just as small as operating a motor vehicle.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cmckn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:15PM (#22740584)
My partner is a first officer, and frequently describes his job as being a glorified babysitter outside of takeoff and landing.

Worth noting that a significant amount of the information pilots use in the cockpit (at major US carriers, at least), things like flight plans, are on an iPad.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by BrandonMarc on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:07PM (#22741222)
... until something goes wrong. Then a touch screen is the last thing you want. An airliner moving uncontrollably is no time to try touching just the right spot of the screen, and avoid touching the wrong spot.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by akamaozu on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:28PM (#22741465)
Was team screen til this point.

In critical systems, you want to make sure inputs are easy to use in the worst case scenario.

Even the best of touchscreens can't compare to physical controls in tough times.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by freeopinion on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:48PM (#22743601)
Kinda like trying to flip just the right toggle switch and avoid flipping the wrong one?

Just because it's on a touchscreen doesn't mean it has to be tiny and hard to touch. A 17" touchscreen could have fewer controls than the same hardware panel. And the controls could be bigger on the touchscreen.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by FriendlyNormie on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:48PM (#22744510)
It’s not like trying to flip just the right toggle. You’ve flipped it thousands of times and memorized its exact location through haptic memory. You gently feel the surroundings to ensure your hand is in the right location and then you make the decisive motion with your fingers. You don’t need to look while doing this. This is how hands work. This is how you type. I wish people would stop pretending they don’t understand this.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by numpad0 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:27AM (#22746241)
> flipped it thousands of times

This raises a question: how many times do an average pilot actually flip a switch over their carrier?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cerebellum42 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:43AM (#22746587)
Many switches are flipped once or twice on takeoff, then again before or after landing. Depending on the plane (small GA aircraft or airliner or anything inbetween) there could be 4 or 5 switches to flip in total before takeoff, or 30-40. One of the most ubiquitously used controls in aircraft are concentric rotary encoders though, with a button integrated in them if you press the top of the encoder. Those are used to do menu navigation in the GPS units used in many planes, or for altitude/heading selectors in autopilot units.

Worth mentioning that these days GPS units seem to be getting touchscreens but usually still aren't losing the physical buttons.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by freeopinion on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:52PM (#22750806)
Thiss os how i typw somtimws.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by TylerE on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:24AM (#22745673)
BS.

Imagine trying to find the right switch on this by feel, without hitting the wrong one by accident.

https://live.staticflickr.com/6150/5990351987_fb9c159ea5_b.j...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by p_l on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:35PM (#22755755)
Easy mode, given the variety of orientation points in form of switches you can gently touch with fingers to recognize position.

That said, usually you make a short look at the panel to benefit from that hardcoded visual-motion coordination hw in your head.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by raziel2p on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:54PM (#22741763)
I can just as easily make the argument the other way around: An airliner moving uncontrollably is no time to try touching just the right knob (of which there are like a hundred), and avoid touching the wrong one.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by WalterBright on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:03PM (#22741873)
You'd be wrong. The critical controls are uniquely shaped so that the pilot can put his hands quickly on the correct one and know it's correct.

Part of pilot training (at least in my dad's day in the AF) was blindfolding the pilot and the instructor names a control, and the student must put his hands on it. Or he flunks.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by olnluis on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:09PM (#22741928)
I don't believe this is equivalent though. With hardware controls, most (if not all) of them are immediately accessible at all times. With proper training, body movement and tactile feedback will train your muscle memory which will help you find the right control without much of a hassle.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hiram112 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:12PM (#22741972)
Just out of curiosity, do pilots still manually take off and land fully, or does auto-pilot / computer do this too nowadays?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by andrecarini on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:21PM (#22743355)
The technology exists, but autoland functionality depends on the plane model and the airport. Usually, most of the approach is done with ILS with the final moments being manual.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by thoraway1010 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:03PM (#22740442)
Absolutely not true. In cruise, stabilized, especially with AP - the margins are MUCH MUCH higher. Pilots have fallen asleep (two of them) - overflown airports still landed etc.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by saiya-jin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:24PM (#22740703)
I think major difference is commercial airliner vs say fighter jet. As a layman it still seems pretty wrong to make most of the screen highly dynamic. Maybe designated one on the side.

Back to the topic - in car, unless specifically intended for other passengers, driver should never stare on some stupid screen in a place way off the line of sight for driving. Whenever I do that even for a split second in my 15-year old bmw (checking if that knob is really for what I want), there can be an atomic blast in front of me and I wouldn't see it.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by thoraway1010 on Friday April 03, 2020 @12:07PM (#22770686)
I'm not arguing for touch screens - I don't like them, but to say a commercial pilot in cruise at 30K in controlled airspace with controlled separations and TCAS / ADS-B has margins as low as someone driving 85 MPH with traffic literally 50 feet in front of them is absolutely ridiculous. The spacing distances alone are 100x different (in terms of travel time).

Deaths and injuries per mile traveled supports the idea that flying is MUCH MUCH safer.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by sudosysgen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:18PM (#22742048)
Fighter jets are starting to use touchscreens, too.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mcguire on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:09PM (#22743242)
Because fancy, advanced UIs work so well for Navy ships.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by 205guy on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:55PM (#22742468)
I remember when that happened, pretty shocking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go!_(airline)#2008_incident_an...
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by colechristensen on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:49PM (#22741038)
Modern airliners are just short of autonomous. Even if they aren't, unless you are landing or on initial ascent, you are generally minutes away from catastrophic outcomes regardless of your control inputs. In fact, most of the time, if something bad is happening, simply letting go of the controls will lead to the issue resolving itself.

A car is very often fractions of a second away from a serious accident.

A plane at cruise altitude is rarely less than minutes away (unless, in some planes, you are actively trying to crash the plane/make the wings fall off)

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by iruoy on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:30AM (#22748901)
> In fact, most of the time, if something bad is happening, simply letting go of the controls will lead to the issue resolving itself.

Unless you're flying a Boeing 737 MAX that is.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by drewmol on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:01PM (#22741848)
Indian Road Congress specifications recommend 3.5m minimum lane width for multi lane roads, 1.06m minimum center margin. Airplanes complex enough for touchscreen interfaces would be awful tight in those margins ;)
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jacquesm on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:21PM (#22743348)
Big mistake, imnsho. It will work fantastic right up to the point where you actually need that control in an emergency and then it will fail you because it is impossible to hit the right area consistently in a bucking aircraft. It also requires visual confirmation rather than tactile confirmation, which requires you to take away your attention from the surroundings, something you do at your peril in aircraft.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by xt00 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:42PM (#22740953)
The sad but real reason a ton of this is happening is one very big word that is typically not present in things like car / airplane design: flexibility... flexibility to change the user controls, flexibility to fix problems, flexibility to let the SW team work up until the last minute to get stuff working, and the second part that goes with this is cost. Touchscreens mean increased flexibility for the design and better control over cost to deliver features. Unfortunately, if the display dies and you can't see anything, then the car or plane may crash... so sadly it will probably take a couple of those events happening for this to be changed to have some kind of redundant systems that the pilot can use when the display dies suddenly.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by paulyg on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:05PM (#22744906)
If something needs that much flexibility in it's UI that people are messing with it at the last minute it doesn't belong as something people should be messing with while driving. The OP talks about HVAC controls. How much flexibility do you really need for that? The interface has been standardized for a long time. It's a known quantity both from a design perspective and user perspective. Ditto for common audio controls like volume, pause/play, skip.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by clSTophEjUdRanu on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:10PM (#22741259)
You'll often see screens surrounded on all sides by physical buttons. The screen can be updated and changed over time but the interaction is still physical.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cerebellum42 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:48AM (#22746608)
There already are redundant systems like the ones you want. Multiple displays. Most planes that are heavily reliant on screens for instruments/navigation, touchscreens or not, have two of them at least. If one fails, there is a button you press which condenses the information previously shown distributed over both screens on each individual screen (so, the remaining one if one has failed).
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dirtyid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:49PM (#22741033)
Planes have multiple screens which provides more redundancy vs broke physical switches.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by im3w1l on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:04PM (#22743717)
User controls should never change. It leads to people getting confused and making mistakes.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by rswail on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:05PM (#22745220)
There's lots of discussion here about the benefits or otherwise of analog switches etc, but it's not about the failure or otherwise of the input device, it's about the affordance to the pilot.

Well designed physical UI allows pilots to use touch and haptic feedback independent of sight. Whether the switch/dial/whatever is analog behind the scenes or is a digital input to the control infra is not the important thing.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mihaaly on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:48AM (#22748430)
I hope this is known to the manufacturer:

"The US Navy will replace its touchscreen controls with mechanical ones on its destroyers

After a deadly 2017 crash between a destroyer and an oil tanker"

https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/11/20800111/us-navy-uss-john...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:20PM (#22739861)
What exact type of input is being grabbed by these screens? "Critical pilot systems"? Touchscreens already exist in airliners, for systems used by crew and passengers, but that's beside the point.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by pc86 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:37PM (#22740082)
I fly recreationally and all the higher end gear has touch screens. Some of them are redundant with paths using hardware controls or not. But that's definitely the minority. There are a slew of critical operations that I simply cannot complete without interacting with a touch screen.

Not saying it's right or wrong but your original post is 100% incorrect.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by GuB-42 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:00PM (#22742526)
Are these things certified?

Many recreational pilots fly with uncertified gear (GPS in particular), and even regular smartphone/tablet apps. They also have the required paper documentation and certified instrument but that's just to cover themselves, and as a backup.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by andrewg on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:17PM (#22743315)
Garmin has quite a few certified touchscreens these days, some intended for panel upgrades (e.g. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/67886) and even some in new light jets (e.g. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/66916).

Also, some airlines now have officially certified iPads as EFBs, meaning pilots no longer need to carry paper backups.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by pc86 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:21PM (#22744328)
Yes this has all been in Pipers and Cessnas.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by WalterBright on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:06PM (#22741905)
My iphone touch screen won't work if my fingers aren't clean and dry.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by pc86 on Thursday April 02, 2020 @03:29PM (#22762717)
They are not capacitive
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by chc on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:24PM (#22739919)
Critical driver systems (i.e. steering, signaling, acceleration and brakes) aren't controlled by touchscreen in any car I know of either, so if non-critical systems are beside the point, what is the criticism here? Or are you thinking of some particularly extreme cars that are even more reliant on touchscreen than the Model 3?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:35PM (#22740054)
I was just trying to make an illustrative example of why I think static interfaces are safer and therefore better, at the end of the day it comes down to subjectivity for the part of a positive user experience, but when it comes to safety the trend is, to me, worrying.

I also imagine that there are other reasons for both airliners and cars to replace buttons with touchscreens, namely that of cost instead of prioritizing safety and stability, and in general I am not a fan of that trade-off. But I'm also not claiming to be representative of the automobile market in general.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by light_hue_1 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:23PM (#22741415)
If you believe that aviation not having touch screens means that cars should not either, then evidence to the opposite should change your mind. The A350 and 777X both have touch screens now.

It's not just Boeing, who you accused of being backwards who are doing this, Airbus is too, along with every other manufacturer. Garmin and BendixKing now offer touch screens and it's clearly the future of GA as well not just commercial aviation.

Everyone believes that this will increase safety. That showing only the relevant information in a tunable and interactive way will decrease distractions and help focus on what matters.

The idea that this is to save money is totally absurd! A 777X is $350 million dollars. Any accident would cost an astronomical amount compared to the cost of switches. Even leaving that aside. The touchscreens are actually far more expensive than the old instruments.

This is just a way for Honda to cover up the fact that they can't write software, can't design a reasonable UX, don't want to spend money on it, and want to live as if it's 1999 forever.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by burfog on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:29AM (#22746252)
I'd pay extra for a 1999-style car. That year was near the peak for car design quality. Fancy cars hit the peak around 1995, and cheap ones hit the peak around 2010 or 2015.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ClumsyPilot on Thursday April 02, 2020 @11:56PM (#22766201)
Who is this everyone that believes touchscreens will increase safety? I could not find any reputable sources for this claim.

Furthermore, tactile feedback is safety. The fact that each switch has a feel, a size, a position - that let's your brain know what you are doing without having to take eyes off the road.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Retric on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:18PM (#22740629)
I have seen side mirrors controlled by touch screen, as well as some headlight functions. Which is are critical safety systems, though rarely an issue.

Still, if you’re borrowing your wife’s car it’s easy to realize you don’t have great blindspot visibility at which point looking at a touch screen is very distracting.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by LMMojo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:17PM (#22744677)
What happens during turbulence when you can't accurately touch a specific point on the screen? It doesn't take much turbulence, either, as I cannot reliably use the GPS on my phone, while driving, when it's in its (very stable) mount, and I'm on an average paved road.

Touch screen looks awesome on Star Trek, but in actual use it's an inaccurate, attention-magnet, nightmare.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by numpad0 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:33AM (#22746275)
Which control do you exactly need to adjust in the middle of a turbulence?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by omegant on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:59AM (#22746383)
Most of them, as you find turbulence in all fases during the flight.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by nettdata on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:17AM (#22746474)
Roll? Pitch? Yaw? Engine RPM? Prop pitch?

Those are “most” of the controls... none of which require touchscreens.

What controls are you referring to specifically?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by PaulHoule on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:42PM (#22740939)
A plane isn't a good analogy for a car.

Airplanes have keypads that control complex functions on a screen, going from that kind of keypad to a touchscreen is logical.

In the case of cars, a touchpad is overkill for controlling the cabin temperature, stereo volume, etc.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by astrodust on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#22742222)
It's logical? It's absurd. You can usually pull over a car and get out in the case of a critical hardware failure. There is rarely such a luxury in a plane.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by TylerE on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @12:25AM (#22745677)
Anything critical on a plane will be duplicated, including power systems. Sometimes triplicated.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by astrodust on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:35PM (#22753247)
You say that like the 737-Max incident didn't just happen.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by yason on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:25PM (#22741430)
I wonder about the temperature settings. I have manual dials but I basically set them to 21C for winter and 19C for summer. Other than that, I don't readily touch the hvac panel at all: I could certainly do those rare adjustments over a touchscreen.

I can imagine people would need to tune a radio panel more often, so at least basic functionality would be good to have as physical inputs. But even then basic radio functions are usually accessible via steering wheel buttons.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by prox on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:33PM (#22742220)
I pray you all read the ux bible About Face on interaction design.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by chiefalchemist on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:04PM (#22743718)
So in due time we can be almost certain to hear about a crash due to a bad touch or a wonky screen.

New isn't always better.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mc32 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:42PM (#22740942)
That’s too bad. Imagine unresponsive touchscreen due to dry skin or wearing gloves, or hands are too sweaty.... or the controller goes out, etc.

Flight plans is one thing but controls are all together a different sort of thing.

Why ask for trouble?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by klibertp on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:53PM (#22742438)
I have no idea how, but my smartwatch touchscreen remains responsive underwater, in a bathtub or swimming pool. It was with on every workout, and it both endured the energetic movements and sweaty hands were not an issue. The thing has more RAM and CPU power than my desktop in first half of the 90s, runs Linux, and is programmed with JS (well, there's gotta be some faulty part in every design). Anyway, if I can buy such a thing for a few hundred dollars, then - unless there are some physical limitations I'm not aware of - it should be possible for people who build the planes.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by joyj2nd on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:59PM (#22741825)
Touchpads can't even be operated by a cat https://ask.metafilter.com/91541/Why-cant-Godfrey-work-the-t...
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by robocat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:41PM (#22743531)
Actually the thread showed they can.

The theory I thought was reasonable for why the OP had troubles, was that Mac touch pads are sensitive enough to treat the separate pads of the paws as multitouch.

Testable: try with individual pad of paw on a Mac touchpad.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by rhizome on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:26PM (#22740729)
Touch screens for all purposes? Probably good to distinguish if some things, even at your company, should not be dynamic (are they dynamic?). Some life-critical thing that is vulnerable to an uncovered sneeze?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jdmg94 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:02PM (#22741176)
I wouldn't fly on a touchscreen plane, imagine Boeing going corporate with their airplane screens, nope, nope, nope.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by api on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:42PM (#22744061)
The big driver for this is reducing the number of components and thus manufacturing cost, and secondarily being trendy.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by sizzle on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:35PM (#22740061)
function (buttons) > form (touch screen)

Usable inputs save lives.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by astrodust on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:32PM (#22742211)
Adding "touch screen calibration failure" to the list of things that can kill you.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by gameswithgo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:09PM (#22745238)
please tell then to stop
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by boznz on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:35PM (#22743482)
and all SCADA systems
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jacobwilliamroy on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:50PM (#22744833)
Murderers!
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hyperbovine on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:32PM (#22740011)
No offense intended, but the sector as a whole has been doing all sorts of dumb sh*t recently when it comes on-board electronics (787 batteries, 737max MCAS, A380 wiring, F35 ... everything). This doesn't exactly refute OP's point, is all I'm saying. Maybe airspace firms shouldn't be taking their design cues from Cupertino.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by arcticfox on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:43PM (#22740175)
OP was making an appeal to authority, that avionics manufacturers know what they're doing and decided against touchscreens. So IMO it does strongly refute OP's argument.

(That's not to say that OP is wrong, of course, just that their argument isn't really a valid one. My belief is that touch screens would suck for flying a plane, but I'm not a pilot.)

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:47PM (#22740241)
What I was trying to say was more that avionics are by nature risk averse, so if they're doing something it's probably worth understanding why. So it's not so much "it's safe because it's in an airplane", I was more going for "consider why this very safety-focused environment looks different". So sure, I might be in the wrong if what I said was interpreted as a simple appeal to authority, but I was trying to get a point across that people spent a lot of time trying to make and keep these systems secure, so let's try to learn from that instead of invalidate it as being simply old or outdated (which Boeing themselves ironically seem to be guilty of).
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by barkingcat on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:19PM (#22741361)
It is very clear that the aviation industry is NOT risk averse. They are averse to losing money (via needing to spend money to redesign systems, recertify interfaces, re-train pilots, rebuy new equipment and simulators, all of those reduce risk but are capital intensive). But they are no longer risk averse. They might never have been risk averse at all - the roots of the aviation industry is exceedingly risk seeking in the first place (to fly is itself a risk seeking activity - and that's something understood by all pilots and all aviation and aerospace engineers on day 1 of wanting to fly)

You can say the civilian oversight groups that seek to regulate the industry are risk averse, but the companies that build the planes themselves, if they had their say, we'd be flying mach 3 upside down all day.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by WalterBright on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:11PM (#22741962)
> They are averse to losing money (via needing to spend money to redesign systems, recertify interfaces, re-train pilots, rebuy new equipment and simulators, all of those reduce risk but are capital intensive).

Re-designing systems introduces risk and uncertainty. Being able to leverage existing pilot training reduces risk (because crashes have resulted from pilots forgetting they were flying X and applied training for Y). Buying new equipment introduces risk of manufacturing defects that wasn't present in the working one.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by user-asdfgh on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:31PM (#22740803)
Appeal to authority is an informal fallacy of logic. It can/should never be used to prove an argument.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by the_jeremy on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:07PM (#22741216)
Sure, if everyone is an expert on the subject, or is willing to spend the time to become one, you should never appeal to authority.

That's not most people on most subjects. If someone appeals to authority and says "climate change is real, here's 100 scientists with PhDs who agree" I accept that. I am not willing to become an expert on the subject to be able to spend the time to review the facts for myself. Citing sources in a paper is essentially appealing to authority (I understand I could read those papers and the ones they cite, all the way down, but for most things, I'm not going to do that).

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by tehjoker on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:30PM (#22742197)
For what it's worth, for a specialist in a field, they'll have already read most of the papers that are cited and will be looking for new or missing ones to find gems or flaws in the argumentation.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by the_jeremy on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:40PM (#22742922)
That's fair. Most papers are probably written with specialists in mind, so I guess that wouldn't be a good example of appeal to authority.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by derefr on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:30PM (#22739987)
> The problem that touch interfaces solve, ever since the advent of the first smart phone, is that the interface is now dynamic. You can change it without having to replace the hardware.

I mean, the other point of a dynamic interface is that you can now have more controls than would fit on a static interface. Touchscreen fit-to-purpose controls might suck more than hardware fit-to-purpose controls, but either option is better than a single set of generic controls that control multiple systems that "should" have different control paradigms, translating to the generic controls being a compromised bad fit for any use-case.

E.g. a hardware English-language keyboard is probably better than a touchscreen English-language keyboard (though people with modern Blackberries might dispute this); but both are better than entering English text through T9 on a dial pad. And the touchscreen has the benefit of allowing you to have more keyboards (for e.g. the multiple native languages you type that use different alphabets), which wouldn't even fit on the phone as hardware keyboards.

I bring this up, because eventually you run out of space to stuff additional controls. As airplanes become ever-more advanced, their cockpits will approach that point. At that point, dynamic affordances may be necessary, just so you can have some kind of "pagination" allowing you to squeeze more controls in. (Hopefully it'd just be for the non-time-critical switches to flip.)

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mywittyname on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:51PM (#22741058)
There's always the possibility for hybrid UIs. Something with physical inputs with a dynamic display based on context, like a screen above a series of buttons and maybe a dial at the end ( think ATMs) or even buttons with OLED displays.

It's the best or worst of both worlds depending on your perspective, but they do offer superior hands-free operation over a pure touch device, but at the sacrifice of interface flexibility.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ak217 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:08PM (#22744926)
Also known as an MFD, and used for many decades in the aviation industry.

MFDs were pioneered in fighter jets, where the cockpit physical space is extremely limited while the amount of information the pilot has to deal with is far beyond any civilian pilot workload.

MFDs combine the durability of physical controls with the configurability and flexibility of screens, and it's completely beyond me why they are not standard equipment in all cars.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by BostonFern on Thursday April 02, 2020 @10:15AM (#22759190)
That's a funny coincidence. Two days ago, I was searching the Web for cars with MFDs after watching a review covering the Porsche Taycan's touchscreen interface, thinking how odd it was that I couldn't find any.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:45PM (#22742991)
>Something with physical inputs with a dynamic display based on context, like a screen above a series of buttons and maybe a dial at the end

BMW's iDrive is, I think, the canonical early example of this in the automotive world.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jsight on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:42PM (#22740166)
> I mean, the other point of a dynamic interface is that you can now have more controls than would fit on a static interface.

I think this point is lost sometimes, but is also useful. My car has a lot of physical controls. Some of the ones that are useful during driving are tucked inconveniently below my left knee!

Moving some less frequently used controls to a touch screen might actually benefit some of these designs.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:38PM (#22740110)
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying and despite my somewhat ranting comment I am not completely opposed to a mix of touchscreens and hardware interfaces: but I think you'll agree that there needs to be a decision made in terms of safety when you decide to use a touchpad for input. If you're adjusting the screen brightness on your smart phone, that slider doesn't have to be perfect, and maybe adjusting the cabin lights for an airliner doesn't have to be either: I'm just dreading the day when things like navigational headings and airspeed creeps into a touch interface because of "convenience". But if my observation about this trend is wrong, which I hope, that separation of concerns will stay in future designs as well.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by d_silin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:19PM (#22739851)
Too late! Boeing 777-X will have touch screen interfaces for pilots.

Personally, I think information display can and should use touch interface, but actions should be tied to physical switches or buttons.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by outworlder on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:39PM (#22740902)
> Personally, I think information display can and should use touch interface, but actions should be tied to physical switches or buttons.

Underrated comment!

Information - the user is already looking at the screen, so they can touch virtual buttons. And that is probably the best approach, as they are manipulating information that is being displayed and they can see.

For actions, you won't necessarily have your attention on the screen. The information may not even be displayed in the screen yet, so now you have to divert attention and manipulate the system to get it to a state you can then change(eg, moving to the climate control screen).

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by joshvm on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:46PM (#22744493)
Well keyboards are an interesting one. Airliners have space to install hardware keyboards, light aircraft don't so they have touch displays.

You could argue that an onscreen keyboard is significantly less mental load for the pilot than having to scroll letter by letter on a "dumb" interface.

Where do accidents happen? It's fairly rare for a plane to just break. And even then, if your electronics fail there are usually mechanical backups for the critical instruments. It's much more common for pilots to reach task saturation and make mistakes.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by blaser-waffle on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:02AM (#22749341)
> You could argue that an onscreen keyboard is significantly less mental load for the pilot than having to scroll letter by letter on a "dumb" interface.

I don't buy that argument. What kind of keyboard? QWERTY or something else? What language? English is the language of aviation, but if you're not a native speaker who uses keyboards all the time then chances are you're going to have a LOT of mental load using a keyboard. Even something like the French or German keyboards, which use mostly the same letters, may be different enough to cause frustration -- and when you have an engine on fire you don't need to be struggling with those details.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by joshvm on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @01:10PM (#22751018)
The ones I've seen are a-z, not qwerty:

https://www.simpits.org/articles/Boeing_simtour/simtour30.jp...

And English because anything you'd need to enter, like waypoints or airport IDs use roman/latin letters or numbers.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by p_l on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:39PM (#22755770)
Airbus (A380 and A350) mounts both full size QWERTY on retractable "desk", and A-Z on the center console.

The keyboard is mainly used for planning ahead where you have more data to input. Both are equipped with mouse as well.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:20PM (#22739870)
The problem is not "having touch interfaces", the problem is "having touch interfaces for critical systems".
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by d_silin on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:23PM (#22739909)
I can assure you that PFD (primary flight display) interfaces are very much safety-critical. And they will be touch interfaces.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:31PM (#22739997)
Personally I think it's an awful idea. I just watched the promotional video that I expected to give some answers as to why this design decision was made and I frankly ended up even more worried.[1] I can accept that I'm somewhat of a luddite when it comes to this and I might be wrong, I just hope these are thoroughly tested and actually solve real world problems, and aren't just a way for Boeing to save money or solve the problem of "hey why aren't there any cool touchscreens in here".

[1]: https://www.boeing.com/777x/reveal/touchscreens-come-to-777x...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by spaceandshit on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:05PM (#22742579)
You would have a difficult time finding an airborne system that does not already do this:

> I just hope these are thoroughly tested and actually solve real world problems

Changing from a legacy style to a new one is not cheap, and aerospace companies are not the type to spend money on useless, less reliable technology.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dheera on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:39PM (#22740126)
That sounds like a horrible idea.

If you're trying to say, lower the landing gear, and the button malfunctions, you can probably smack the button a few times until it works, failing that, rip the switch out and short the wires inside the switch and get the plane landed.

With a touch screen? What if the glass breaks and the capacitive layer fails? Or the software running the screen crashes? Or a bug prevents you from switching from the "Climate control" tab to the "Landing gear" tab?

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by intlcaptain on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:52PM (#22740305)
There are three redundant methods to lower the landing gear on my aircraft, depending on whether you still have hydraulic ability available or not. It is not unique. One is a big, fat lever that will not go away with a hypothetical touchscreen option, since we pilots tend to like physical backups for flight-critical systems like that (though I’m curious what pc86 is flying upthread, since even the G1000 aircraft I’ve flown have usually had airspeed dials).

It is even totally possible to gravity drop landing gear on nearly all commercial airliners, I would expect, though I can only speak on the types I’ve rated on. I don’t see you asking “what happens if the landing gear lever fails?” which is actually a totally reasonable question, and one manufacturers have thought of. Touchscreens aren’t magic devices, they’re just another type of input to build redundancy behind.

It sounds like a horrible idea because you probably haven’t flown an aircraft and don’t know this. That isn’t an indictment of you, just a request to not judge so soon. I like the idea of screens that adjust to phase of flight so what I need is where I need it, because pilot workload is a real problem that automation has addressed for decades.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dheera on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:25PM (#22740722)
> One is a big, fat lever that will not go away with a hypothetical touchscreen option

Thanks for the explanation -- This makes me feel much safer as a passenger if the touch screen is provided to you as a convenience instead of a replacement. Yep, I haven't flown an aircraft. I was thinking that it was like a car where they are getting rid of physical knobs and replacing them with touchscreen-only interfaces which I hate.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cesarb on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:53PM (#22740309)
> If you're trying to say, lower the landing gear, and the button malfunctions

If you're trying to lower the landing gear, and the button malfunctions, you use the gravity gear extension handle, which is a completely independent system. You can also land without the landing gear in the worst case.

> What if the glass breaks and the capacitive layer fails? Or the software running the screen crashes? [...]

You use the other screen, which is controlled by the other computer. There are also knobs to switch which computer controls each screen. In the worst case, there are the standby instruments.

Airplanes have a lot of redundancy.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mihaaly on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:47AM (#22748422)
"The US Navy will replace its touchscreen controls with mechanical ones on its destroyers

After a deadly 2017 crash between a destroyer and an oil tanker"

https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/11/20800111/us-navy-uss-john...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by WalterBright on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:59PM (#22741818)
> Touch screens will hopefully never make it into any critical pilot systems

Touch screens in the cockpit seem like madness to me. Cockpits sometimes fill with smoke and the pilot has to be able to find and operate the controls.

Ever notice that the flap levers have little flaps on top of them? The nosewheel steering control has a little tire on the top? That's so the pilot knows without looking what his hands are on. These designs were not the result of some study group following fashion, but were the result of accidents.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ondravn on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:25AM (#22746239)
Another consideration is vibration; trying to press a virtual button while in a high turbulence situation can be non-trivial, for example.

Critical functions will (hopefully) always remain on tactile controls for these and other reasons.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by astrodust on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:34PM (#22742233)
Not just smoke. During explosive decompression the air turns to thick fog, and that's when you'll need to fumble around for the correct controls the most.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jasondclinton on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:35PM (#22740059)
This comment is off-topic: the article is about physical buttons for non-safety-critical systems. E.g. the article explicitly mentions climate control.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by daotoad on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:50PM (#22740277)
You can still die if the driver spends too long messing with air conditioner settings instead of focusing on the road.

CarPlay and Android Auto make this problem worse, IMO. Now you have app publishers writing arbitrarily complex UIs for cars. Spotify is a bitch to use while driving and because of Apple's reluctance to enable Siri support for third party apps, it's not very controllable by voice.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by diydsp on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:46PM (#22740992)
yup, just rented a cool modern car and was distraught at how much menu-diving there was. and even if you memorize it, the lag was still huge vs. real-time controls!
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by sigspec on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @11:50PM (#22745460)
"Siri, play the Eagles on spotify"

Been available for a little bit now.

https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/how-to-use-siri-to-control-...

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hinkley on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:58PM (#22740387)
The ergonomics in question here are not about the driver being able to operate controls in a critical situation. They're about operating the controls without causing a critical situation.

If you want, you might think of radio, climate controls, etc as having negative values on the safety axis. You still want to shift them to the right as far as you can.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:44PM (#22740182)
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough about this but I was more trying to make a point that physical input is safer, and that the trend towards touchscreens in general worries me. So a return to "normal", which I guess is not so normal these days, is for me very welcome. Touchscreens in cars cause safety issues for other reasons, namely those of distraction, but my concern is what the future will look like if touchscreen normality takes the upper hand over safety concerns.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by masklinn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:42PM (#22740946)
Climate control is something you will want to adjust while driving, so it should be as eyes-free as possible once the basics have been acquired.

I can’t think of a car I’ve driven where the climate control was not physical though, that seems pretty insane.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by iknowstuff on Thursday April 02, 2020 @04:03AM (#22757067)
Will you though? You have a temperature you're comfortable at. Set climate control to that and let the software manage the air.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jasondclinton on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:27PM (#22743415)
All Tesla climate is non-physical. All newer Volvos are except for the defrost controls, as well.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by KotlinFan554001 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:46PM (#22740210)
I am really sorry but foggy windshield is definitely safety critical.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by nimrody on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:57PM (#22741118)
I am not a pilot, but it seems like MFD (multi-function displays, a sort of touch screen with touch points at the edge of the screen) are very common even in fighter planes.

Yes, the basic controls do not change. But more advanced functionality is easier presented through menus and screens which guide you through a process -- instead of adding tons of switches for every possible function.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by collyw on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @08:43AM (#22747983)
Indeed when phones started moving over to touchscreen dial pads i always thought it was a step backward usability wise. I had one phone where I couldn't hang up calls easily as you needed to swipe in a particular direction and a number of my calls went though a VOIP number so that had a different way of hanging up. Same with whatsapp calls now answering and hanging up is different from a normal call. It's a real shitshow.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by nswest23 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @08:51AM (#22748027)
Touchscreens on phones are great for usability! There are so many things that are enabled by touchscreens that you couldn't do with an array of physical buttons or whatever. OP's comment was specifically for mission critical hardware where safety is paramount.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by collyw on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:25AM (#22748255)
For making a phonecall they are crap in comparison to buttons.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mastre_ on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:28PM (#22753187)
One could argue that, despite still being called "phones," their primary purpose is not making phone calls anymore. I personally use my device for making phone calls less than 1% of the time I use it (and this includes talk time).
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by nswest23 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @08:46PM (#22790016)
yeah the phone thing is just another app that I use about 5 times a month. it's nice that they include that app but if it wasn't there i'd prob still buy it!
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jrockway on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:39PM (#22742283)
I don't think this is entirely true. The GA glass panels love touchscreens, and they are just as FAA-certified as their non-touchscreen counterparts.

You are right that they are flaky. Here's Martin Pauly (great YouTube channel!) using his touchscreen transponder and it just stops working: https://youtu.be/bopcQSJKcD8?t=732

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by danbolt on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:52PM (#22742428)
I think that’s partially why the market for handheld game devices didn’t get crowded out by smartphones. Tactile inputs let the player’s muscle memory work as a more direct shorthand into the product for a lot of video games. It helps the repeated interactions of a video game be more accessible over a “look, then touch” method of input.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by tomc1985 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:14PM (#22741984)
Didn't the US Navy try this and end up crashing a destroyer or something?
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by heymijo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:28PM (#22742181)
You are correct.

> The US Navy is replacing touch screen controls on destroyers, after the displays were implicated in collisions.

Unfamiliarity with the touch screens contributed to two accidents that caused the deaths of 17 sailors, said incident reports.

Poor training meant sailors did not know how to use the complex systems in emergencies, they said.

Sailors "overwhelmingly" preferred to control ships with wheels and throttles, surveys of crew found.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by clSTophEjUdRanu on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:09PM (#22741244)
I'd argue that humans have evolved to physically manipulate their environment. Safety critical systems are the last place you want UI variation. Things need to be predictable and tactile to build muscle memory.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by viklove on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:26PM (#22743400)
I think you're missing something pretty major -- a touchscreen can support multiple UIs, menus, and controls, with minimal hardware. If I have 20 user adjustable inputs, I would need 20 dials/buttons scattered around the cockpit. On the other hand, with a screen, I can display 5 on each page and allow the user to swap between pages.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by SAI_Peregrinus on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:35PM (#22742240)
The thing I'd like to see more of is OLED buttons (Optimus Keyboard style). Physical, clicky, mechanical buttons, but each button is a screen. MFD buttons already change their function depending on what mode the screen is in, having the button also be an icon of what it will do can be very nice.

Otherwise I agree. You need the use of the interface to be as automatic as possible, and exploiting muscle memory & tactile feedback are very important for that. Touch screens fail there.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by fitzn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:44PM (#22740964)
I was about to ask if there are any pilots on this thread who could weigh in because this was my intuition as a non-pilot. Just to drive one of your points home further, you don't want the interface to change because that could confuse the pilot. Toyota's braking fiasco is an example where unfamiliarity led to mis-operation even though the hardware or the device itself was functioning "to spec".
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cosmotic on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:01PM (#22740418)
> The problem that touch interfaces solve, ever since the advent of the first smart phone, is that the interface is now dynamic. You can change it without having to replace the hardware.

They also enable the completion of hardware design before the interface design is completed. While the plastic molds and mechanical designs are worked out, the interface and software development can continue.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by downerending on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:38PM (#22741597)
That sounds good, but for some reason, design of "virtual" controls always seems to end up far inferior to physical ones. Perhaps the thought is "We'll just toss something out there and we can fix it later", as opposed to "We only have one shot at this so we better get it right".

I'm reminded as well of web "app" interfaces. In the early days, with relatively fixed controls, one could often navigate sites more easily since there just weren't that many ways they could work. Now, with a blizzard of JS UI kits and an oh-so-wonderful variety of ways of doing everything, each site works differently. And it's not an improvement.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cosmotic on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:05AM (#22746411)
Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer on my opinion on the matter: virtual controls are almost always worse than physical ones.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by eru on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:03AM (#22747183)
Cockpit design is strictly regulated by some very risk averse and conservative people. (And not just the cockpit, the passenger space as well.)

So it's hard to tell which parts of he design stem from being conservative and which parts actually enhance safety.

(I get your overall point. But your argument isn't really a good one for the point.)

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by solinent on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:30PM (#22744739)
One time I had to create a button for a in-flight software which would control a lidar instrument. The button would enable you to select when to turn on and off the instrument.

We went for a few iterations where the button would light up when the laser was on. There were tons of issues--the state of the laser was not stored in the hardware, so every time the button would disconnect briefly, the state would get reset and lost. After months of back and forth dealing with algorithms to save the state and deal with spurious button presses when the device disconnected, we ended up with a completely useless button, as disconnects would happen very often inside helicopters, rendering the button useless due to the spurious presses near disconnect/reconnect.

Finally, we decided to go with a hardware switch (which I wanted from the start). In about one day the whole thing blew over.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by parsimo2010 on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:06PM (#22740476)
> Touch screens will hopefully never make it into any critical pilot systems

For one, you're too late, touchscreens are prevalent in modern avionics, and unlabeled buttons on the border of a screen that change function depending on what screen you're viewing are the second most common. The more relevant part to the Honda discussion is that there are different considerations for a car and airplane interfaces, and they are so different it's not a good argument to say "planes don't/shouldn't do this so cars shouldn't either."

The issue with a car isn't the interface, it's the fact that people look inside their vehicle for too long to fiddle with the radio. Even if the buttons/knobs could be operated entirely without looking, most people would still stare at their radio while they are doing it. Pilots learning to fly are trained to look outside after pretty much any action, they shouldn't ever stare inside the plane. They do a quick instrument scan and look outside. They glance at their chart and look outside. If they need to change frequency they do it and then look back outside. It's kind of hard to break the habit of looking outside when you start instrument training.

But most car drivers don't have the same amount of training and fixate on things inside the car, like the radio or climate controls. TBH, pilots still get fixated on things, it's just that they usually snap out of it and regain situational awareness before anything bad happens because the skies are pretty spacious. But car drivers don't have spacious roads. There's another car right next to you going 75 mph and if you drift out of your lane you'll cause an accident.

The issue isn't the design of the buttons at all. That matters to a fighter pilot, but the issue for a car driver is the fact that the screen is even on and the radio is accessible while driving down the road. The real critical safety feature would be disabling the screen while driving, and either locking out controls or only allowing voice control. But people would never buy a car that doesn't let them fiddle with the radio or stare at their little screen, so the actual safety feature that needs to be implemented won't happen.

Edit: When I say "fiddle with the radio" I'm including all activities that take place in a car's center stack- audio, navigation, climate control, etc. I'm also a pilot, have designed tests for avionics upgrades for multiple fighter jets, and own my own plane. I have lamented the introduction of touchscreens into modern avionics at a professional level and the personal level. I own three cars with varying levels of touchscreen invasion. So I've thought about the issues surrounding touchscreen quite a bit, and have concluded that the interfaces in a car are so simple that the issue isn't whether you can operate it without looking, it's the fact that people aren't trained to do so.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jchw on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:08PM (#22742600)
Dynamic interface can still be useful in some cases. Cars do require the driver’s active attention, but certainly not the passenger’s, who can operate the touchscreen. Further, undoubtably part of what makes controls intuitive is familiarity, and thanks to smartphones, tablets, and to some degree even modern laptops, it’s hard to argue against it from a familiarity standpoint. I’m sure it’s been attempted but, It’s hard to imagine a good mapping interface in a car with no touchscreen at all.

I’m still glad for what Honda is actually doing, which is not unilaterally removing touch screen controls but instead moving climate control back to physical buttons. These are things a driver ought to be able to operate safely while in motion, and touch controls only ever made them more complicated I think.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by rurounijones on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:39PM (#22742284)
> Touch screens will hopefully never make it into any critical pilot systems

The F-35 Fighter Jet has basically only touch-screens (apart from Hands-on-throttle-and-stick controls for when you are busy pulling Gs)

Depends on your definition of "critical" but I don't think this is a great example.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by Dahoon on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:43PM (#22742339)
And the F-35 is a great example of how not to do things, so of course it has touchscreens.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by johnflan on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:10PM (#22740518)
While not touch many Airbus aircraft feature a full keyboard and trackball for operating those screens.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by TheKarateKid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:05PM (#22741198)
The problem here is not with the technology - it's from the people implementing it. Instead of leaving the design and software to tech companies, we have car companies trying to do it on their own.

The result is terribly designed software that looks like it's from 2000.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by stevehawk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @03:44PM (#22741651)
The arrogance of that statement is amazing. I recently bought an iPad for the first time in 5+(?) years.. before multi touch and pressure sensitive screens. I have no f'n clue what I'm doing anymore. I accidentally had Safari running two windows side by side with no idea how to stop that. I'm still not sure what I did to make it go back to one window..

My friends and I decided to try out a (new to us) game which required Microsoft Store / Xbox PC Game Console or whatever the shit it is. 4 of us cannot figure out how to add someone as a friend. It's not in any menu anywhere. I can follow, I can favorite.. I have no idea how to "friend".. which means we can't figure out how to invite people to games.

I'm convinced if Silicon Valley were to design car interfaces I'd be stuck in some sort of pay per action dark pattern captivity hell.

And as a student pilot nothing scares me more than touch screen controls. Maybe I spend too much time down low in the thermals but it's so much easier to hold on to a knob and turn it, while counting clicks, than trying to press a touch screen and hope you hit the right finger sized button the right number of times to change radio frequencies. Different story on heavy planes since they don't bounce around as much as GA planes but it sucks to fight the fight while trying to maintain control/coordination.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by TheKarateKid on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:48PM (#22744094)
So because you had a bad experience on one Microsoft product, all of the tech industry has poor user interface design?

Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Google, etc. all have some of the best user designs created for technology. They have teams of researchers, psychologists, and designers working together to do this.

Have you heard of the auto industry doing anything remotely similar on this scale? Instead, they push away much better alternatives offered by Apple and Google for their own proprietary solution no customers asked for.

The arrogance of your comment is almost greater than your ignorance.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by stevehawk on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @09:54PM (#22744850)
Honestly, if you told me that moving forward I could only have CarPlay or Android Auto then I would quit buying new cars. I dislike both of them. I also don’t want my car tied to a company that has a reputation for canceling products more than I change shoes. And if you think the auto industry doesn’t employ people to try and improve their user experience then you’re as daft as you think I am.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by perl4ever on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @06:03PM (#22743168)
While working from home, I was trying to figure out how to mute my Android phone on a conference call the other day. I eventually did, but the sequence of actions to get to the menu was very strange. I'm pretty sure it was more intuitive just a few years ago, but of course, you don't control whether you update software anymore. Interface design is accelerating downhill, and it's amazing how things have regressed since Apple and Microsoft published guidelines for good design in the 80s and 90s.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by spaceandshit on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @05:13PM (#22742648)
Unfortunately, that kind of arrogance is common on this forum.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by sgustard on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:47PM (#22740228)
An airplane cockpit has two pilots and literally several hundred physical buttons. No one wants to drive that car.

In cars we're mainly talking about the volume and fan speed. Personally I much prefer knobs for those. But I wouldn't call those critical safety systems.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by bialpio on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:56PM (#22741107)
Someone already mentioned this: climate control becomes safety critical when your windshield fogs up. Good luck finding that goddamn touch button then... Additionally, I sometimes hear radio ads that have honk or siren sounds in them that immensely piss me off and cause me to immediately turn the radio off just to be able to hear if something's actually happening or not.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by slavak on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:50AM (#22746616)
I'm afraid I have some bad news for you:

https://youtu.be/wfOD2y_AD_w?t=190

https://www.dynonavionics.com/SkyView-HDX/

https://youtu.be/1oyCzT6sB_4

Just a few examples.

Aviation very much uses touch screens quite extensively. The difference usually is that more thought is put into when and how to use them; you're not just replacing all the buttons with a touchscreen and letting some underpaid intern design the interface for it.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by davidhariri on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:36PM (#22755436)
All the latest Garmin avionics include touch screens. Airplane cockpits aren't the right metaphor because they are largely driven automatically.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jread on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:43PM (#22742340)
Perhaps, but on many pilot's knees will be a digital touchscreen kneeboard which having learned with paper approach plates and map books myself was a godsend.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by cbhl on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:33PM (#22740028)
Sure, but there are still tons of touchscreens in the cabin -- controlling the climate, the lighting, and the playback of the safety video.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:39PM (#22740134)
Yes, and I have no problem with that. I don't imagine that an imprecise control of the climate, lighting or video playback will bring the plane down. I mean, I sure hope not.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hinkley on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:15PM (#22739813)
Electronic Flight Bag is one of the biggest screens, right? And that's used for navigation, which is largely strategic, not tactical.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by hnarn on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:41PM (#22740149)
I'd love for someone who's in the industry or an actual pilot to comment on this because I'm frankly not sure about what common scope AFBs have on commercial airliners, and what the backup procedures are if they fail. For private pilots, I know bringing an iPad up is common these days, but I think (and sure hope) commercial flight is a lot more risk averse and slow to adopt these things without thorough procedure.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by benhurmarcel on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:40PM (#22740914)
80 to 90% of airlines worldwide use EFBs, based on iPad or Microsoft Surface.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by jariel on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:53PM (#22740314)
Great points.

BUT - touch screens can be used if people are trained, the layout is rational, the device is responsive.

There are two underlying things:

1) Tactile. As you spelled out.

2) Changing interfaces. This is the real killer. 100 screens, don't know what's what, supposed to be driving.

These UIs need some thinking but I suggest that the 'knobs and buttons' can possibly be mapped to different functions depending on.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by neuralRiot on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:44PM (#22753311)
I see many people comparing automotive electronics to avionics, but there’s a big difference, in flight you can take your eyes off the “road” and in some situations even fly with 0 visibility, whereas in a car your next obstacle is only milliseconds away from you.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by friendly_fren on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:12PM (#22740537)
The f35 has a large touch screen that pilots use. Maybe the $1m helmet has a way to interact without touching.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by squaresmile on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:56PM (#22741109)
For some more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/cmypjd/the_finger... It's fun thread. You can catch some actual military pilots there.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mkhpalm on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @10:05PM (#22744908)
> Touch screens will hopefully never make it into any critical pilot systems, because safety and stability matters to airline manufacturers, current ongoing scandals notwithstanding.

You might want to take a look at garmin's general aviation product lineup. They're pretty popular.

Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by titzer on Thursday April 02, 2020 @04:33AM (#22757178)
Not to mention, touchscreens really disadvantage the visually impaired.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ricardobeat on Thursday April 02, 2020 @10:44AM (#22759531)
True, but they are already a little disadvantaged when flying an airplane.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by titzer on Thursday April 02, 2020 @05:44PM (#22764210)
I was thinking more of essentially everything else, from working a stereo to an oven.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by 0x262d on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:54PM (#22744545)
Pretty sure this has everything to do with planes being old. Boeing pretty clearly demonstrated that planes being planes doesn't mean they're immune from bad design, corruption, or any other problem.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by storyinmemo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:04PM (#22744217)
Check out all the latest Garmin aviation equipment. Touch is here for critical systems including GPS systems used on instrument approaches. Super fun to reprogram in turbulence.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by mattr47 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:28PM (#22754163)
Nope, not anymore. Honeywell is making the new Gulfstream’s Symmetry Flight Deck for the G700 and it is touchscreen enabled.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by pbreit on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @07:49PM (#22744103)
It's not useful to compare cars to planes since cars can easily pull over to the side of the road.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by friendlybus on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:27AM (#22746242)
Look at the upcoming TEMPEST fighter to see touch screen displays in full force.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by pascalxus on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:09PM (#22741926)
well said. I for one don't like all those touchscreen buttons. Screens should be for maps and other non-interactive stuff.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by ciconia on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:07PM (#22740485)
Pilots already use iPads for checklists.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by dewey on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:10PM (#22740520)
That's a different ballpark though as you can fall back to the paper version at any time.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by storyinmemo on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:11PM (#22744262)
More often than not, navigation charts are now on iPads and there is no paper backup carried anymore.
Re:Honda bucks industry trend by removing touchscreen controls by gok on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @01:38PM (#22740105)
I suppose you don't include the flight manuals as a critical system, since those have been touch screens for almost a decade?