News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by Corrado on Sunday May 07, 2023 @04:19AM (#35849115)
I feel like this is just one more thing that Google leadership is failing at. I have some similar examples to the ones in the article. I recommended that my brother-in-law get a Google wifi AP some years ago. Recently, I got an email from Google saying that they are no longer supporting it and after a certain date you will no longer be able to make changes to it. WTF?!? My Apple Airport Extreme is older than the Google AP and it still gets updates and I'm free to change the settings at any time.

Another example was my old Nest thermostat. I was so excited to up-my-game and replace the old, crappy thermostat with something that could change the temperature based on the weather forecast. My happiness was short lived; Google purchased Nest and forced everyone to change over to their Google account. Then features stopped working. I finally had to remove the Nest and replace it with something else, mostly because Google just seemed to not care anymore.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by goosedragons on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:15AM (#35849472)
TBF Airport Extremes stopped getting updates years ago. The last update was 7.9.1 from 2019. Granted you can still change settings and not being able to do that after discontinuation is pretty inexcusable.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by doctor_eval on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#35852670)
I scored a handful of these years ago, and they still run my house internet. Airport utility still works too. On all devices. They are great little APs.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by knolan on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:33AM (#35849583)
I love my Time Capsule. It worked flawlessly for a nearly a decade when the disk inevitably failed.

I still use it in my office for backups with a new disk. I wish Apple still made them and made swapping disks tool free.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by bombcar on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:55AM (#35851009)
I had an AirPort Express as an audio bridge to my stereo for years, maybe a decade? Thing was bullet-proof and the only reason I finally put it down was all the new stereos have built-in casting of some sort.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203874699472 was great, had everything you could want in a compact size, and was compatible with the power adapter cables (which are still the same these days)!

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by katbyte on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:34AM (#35852493)
Is time capsule any different the Time Machine backups to networked eogtage?
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by knolan on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:01PM (#35855558)
No, but the hardware was neat.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by largepeepee on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:02AM (#35849813)
I feel like it's not only products that get left behind once Google gets bored.

Many of Google's software eventually get worse too. YouTube for example has killed most of their social features by removing dislikes, limited searchability of videos by channel, allowed bots to fill the comments. And Google search has so much malware in their ads that pop up first, that even govts are recommending ad blockers by default.

Such a pity, Google used to be the most respected of the SV big tech.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by hackernewds on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:23AM (#35849948)
I had to delete the YouTube app simply because there was no way to disable Shorts. Those things are hopelessly addictive and unavoidable. If I wanted shorts, I'd install TikTok.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by Drakim on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:35AM (#35850324)
It's crazy, when I remove the YouTube Shorts pane it says "Shelf will be hidden for 30 days".

It feels like a slap to the face by some promotion seeking Google Manager who tells me that he knows better than me. It's crazy. I didn't stop using YouTube like you did but I was darn close. I guess they do know better than me, in a way.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by robin_reala on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:39AM (#35850345)
It’s the same in Instagram: removing recommended posts only has an option to remove for 30 days. The consistent enshittification of products with these sorts of behaviours just makes me want to use them less. Unfortunately I’m sure they’ve got data that shows that my reaction is a minority.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by netsharc on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:42AM (#35851441)
Black Mirror anyone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=99&v=5P_HqwgDFJM

Fascinatingly this content is narrated by a robot voice...

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by zo1 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:34AM (#35851380)
They also are very slowly "injecting" shorts everywhere. I'm randomly browsing the feed, not shorts, click on something and before I know it, I'm watching shorts. And yeah, they also recently added a shorts "pane" on the side of normal videos.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by netsharc on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:35AM (#35851385)
On Android you can install https://newpipe.net and turn off a lot of things: no more trending/start screen recommendations if you don't want them, you can turn off comments, or "watch next" recommendations.. the shorts show up in the search results like other normal videos, with a slider so you can still navigate it.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by vxNsr on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:43AM (#35852590)
I know this is an unpopular question, but are there ads in newpipe?
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by simfree on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:01PM (#35852796)
Nope, there are zero ads in NewPipe. No ad blocker needed!
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by dangus on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:43AM (#35852036)
Shorts are displayed on one single line of the home and subscriptions tab. They’re trivially easy to avoid.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by txtsd on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:19AM (#35852351)
Try YouTube Revanced from https://revanced.net/
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by grapesurgeon on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:45AM (#35852618)
this is NOT the actual domain. do not share this around. the only domain is https://revanced.app, and it will redirect to their github.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cmehdy on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:46AM (#35852641)
I'm pretty sure revanced.net is not affiliated with the actual project and shouldn't be trusted. AFAIK there's no prebuilt APK doing everything for you that can be trusted, it's a multi-step process one has to follow front the official source.

The official Github is https://github.com/revanced

The Github is very obtuse about the installation steps, so this guide on reddit gives the procedure more adequately: https://www.reddit.com/r/revancedapp/comments/xlcny9/revance...

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SoftTalker on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:30PM (#35853101)
I'm annoyed by the inability to hide shorts but I don't really find them addictive. I've watched a few, determined they were as useless as they appeared, and just ignore them. But it's annoying the amount of space they take up, it's a good third of the screen on my phone.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cogman10 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:49AM (#35851492)
Google is just shit.

As my company briefly decided to look into using them for a cloud provider it quickly became apparent that they are just awful stewards of any software that isn’t related to advertisements.

It’s beyond shocking how amateurish GCP is being operated.

My assumption is it comes down to really awful leadership. They only care about making and selling new things. You simply can’t trust that any piece of software or hardware will receive ongoing support, including their cloud offerings.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by osigurdson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:35AM (#35851971)
That is interesting, I thought GCP might be a good alternative - at least for managed Kubernetes.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by oittaa on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:01PM (#35852802)
It's probably the best managed Kubernetes out there. People just like to make hyperboles. The consumer stuff, especially the free ones, get abandoned every now and then, but the "enterprise" services are pretty good.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by DangitBobby on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:11PM (#35852917)
GCP is excellent.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by toast0 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:39PM (#35853730)
GCP is clearly good if your use cases match their services. However, there are a lot of things that are sub-optimal.

IPv6 doesn't have non-premium networking. Premium networking is nice, but non-premium networking is less expensive.

Instances sometimes take more than 5 minutes to shutdown. A lot of things seem very slow like this. Really frustrating to use for testing when it takes so long to bring an environment up and to clean it afterwards.

Load balancing is hard to use outside of http style short connection use cases. There's no load feedback mechanism, and at small request rates, requests are severely unbalanced anyway. Managed instance groups can auto scale downwards, but connection drain is implemented as take it out of rotation and wait a configurable time and destroy the instance. If the instance drains faster, it won't be destroyed faster. If you want to drain for more than 60 minutes, that's too bad (this isn't that unreasonable, but while I'm ranting...)

Google's container optimized OS has documentation that tells you how to configure docker log retention... But then their container runner (konlet) forces their own log settings for the main container, so your settings are ignored.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by solatic on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:37PM (#35854230)
GKE is an abomination. Its reputation is completely undeserved. Sure there's some nice things out of the box, like authenticating to clusters with your Google/GCP account, but day 2 operations are a constant frustration.

What sucks?

1. The Kubernetes Pod garbage collector is configured to be abominally slow, keeping terminated pods in the API server for far too long. This interferes with cluster monitoring by making it seem like there's a consistently high number of OOMKilled etc. pods rather than blipping as it happens. GCP support claims this is working as intended and recommends manually running a script to clean up the API server if it bothers you (this is a managed service?!). See e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/75374590/why-kubernetes-... .

2. The rest of the Kubernetes world moved on from kube-dns and on to CoreDNS. Not GKE! On GKE your two options are kube-dns and the GCP VPC-native Cloud DNS (i.e. Kubernetes service and pod records are listed in the private DNS zone for the VPC). Surprise surprise - if you pick Cloud DNS to help scale your cluster, because GCP isn't operating kube-dns well enough on its managed control plan, then you're on the hook for paying for the Cloud DNS zone as well, it's not included in the GKE cluster costs. See e.g. https://cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine/docs/how-to/cloud... .

3. GKE clusters automatically log to GCP Cloud Logging, the first 50 GB of which is free. Fair enough. But the ingestion price afterwards is a truly mind-boggling $0.50/GB! (https://cloud.google.com/logging/#section-7). How do you turn off GCP Cloud Logging so that you can ship your logs to a cheaper vendor instead? Nope, there's no first-class managed setting; all you get is a community tutorial (https://cloud.google.com/community/tutorials/kubernetes-engi...) that links to this GitHub configuration (https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/community/blob/master...) aaaaand good luck :)

4. No native IPv6. See e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/64110542/has-anyone-iden... . AWS of course does support IPv6: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/eks/latest/userguide/cni-ipv6.ht...

And this is just off the top of my head.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by jiggawatts on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:54PM (#35855981)
A lot of this criticism could also be levelled at Azure’s AKS service.

IPv6 is broken there as well, and they similarly overcharge for logging. However, instead of 50c per GB, they charge $2.75 per GB, which is highway robbery. That’s more than 5x what GCP or AWS charge.

I swear Microsoft must have been aiming for “half price to be competitive” and then accidentally put the decimal point in the wrong place.

Let this sink in: they charge the price of a serviceable used car or a decent gaming PC to store 1 TB of text for a month!

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by osigurdson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:39PM (#35856651)
This is the sad reality of the cloud currently, it is. It not remotely a commodity. Eventually it certainly will be.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by acdha on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:09PM (#35857360)
GKE at least used to be a bit better, but that’s only worth so much compared to the rest of the services where you’ll frequently find feature gaps where you end up adding a +1 to an issue which has been open for years, and building your own service (yay, more toil). There’s some room for debate on security depending on exactly what features you use and what your needs are but if you use GCP, I’ll just note that Google gave all of your compute instances privileged access to your entire project and you should fix that that immediately if you haven’t already done so.

I’d also note that it used to be fairly comparable on pricing but they’ve been raising prices on some things which I noticed meant a cost savings migrating away.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cogman10 on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:38AM (#35861996)
> you’ll frequently find feature gaps where you end up adding a +1 to an issue which has been open for years, and building your own service (yay, more toil)

Yup, exactly my experience and what I meant by amateurish. We aren't even talking about "crazy" features.

For example, their identity management service supports MFA only though a cell text. Adding support for Google auth was a years old issue that we were told "yeah, lots of other people want this and if you plus 1 it maybe PM will prioritize it".

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by infp_arborist on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:30AM (#35852452)
I have said it before and will say it again:

Google wants to look amateurish as long as possible to avoid stronger regulation.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by dymk on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:50AM (#35852684)
You should probably stop saying it because it makes no sense
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by clnq on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:27PM (#35853616)
Looking into Android Code Search, I've found the same issues. Google keeps saying C++ is a terrible language, but the way they use it is pretty bad too. "A bad workman blames his tools" springs to mind a lot reading that code.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by kps on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:00AM (#35851597)
> I feel like it's not only products that get left behind once Google gets bored.

As someone who had been working at Google in this space (Nest Hubs, Matter, and planned thing I couldn't tell you about even if I knew its current status) until the decimation, I assure you it's not only products that get left behind.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:14AM (#35851750)
>I assure you it's not only products that get left behind.

Could you please enlighten us what else gets left behind?

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by mcsniff on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:22AM (#35851828)
People.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 23B1 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:37AM (#35852532)
Ethics
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by pedrobnsilva on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:22AM (#35852381)
Agreed. See this across all of Google products.

It's amazing to me that Google Assistant was more useful when it came out than it is today. Just the past few days I've been dealing with this bug where I can't even set an alarm through it.

Google Photos is another one: content-based search used to work really well, but totally unreliable today.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by riemannzeta on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:19PM (#35853002)
Not allowing good search within a channel is the most ridiculous. They're a search company. How is that self-consistent? Especially when you know they have the data and index, but are simply using it for advertising.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by pb060 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @04:11PM (#35855179)
They are a search company, yet they decided to give the same name to two completely different web frameworks. Ok one is called AngularJS and the other one is Angular, but still.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by hackernewds on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:22AM (#35849945)
Same happened to me with investing in the Fitbit ecosystem. Hope they don't botch Reminders next with their migrations to Tasks
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by voakbasda on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:40AM (#35852558)
When Google bought Fitbit, ours went in a drawer. We know how they operate, so we outright do not trust them. I wonder how many other people take a similar approach to products that Google buys.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by yellow_mixer on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:27AM (#35851318)
If you’re looking for a good read, pick up a copy of Tony Fadell’s “Build”. There are a few interesting chapters where he writes about the process of selling Nest to Google.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by MR4D on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:53AM (#35851531)
The Nest situation is actually even worse - you specifically need a Gmail account on a Google domain.

If you have a Google hosted domain on gmail like I do, it won’t work.

I’ll never buy a nest again either.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by therealdrag0 on Monday May 08, 2023 @09:33PM (#35869206)
Why is that such a problem. Just make a throwaway account that you log into once a year for the nest. Just like you would if it was some other random company(create a new account).
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by linsomniac on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:44AM (#35852051)
That is the TP-Link router, right? I had one of those, recently replaced it with a used Ruckus R610, and oddly enough, the coverage of a single R610 seems to beat the coverage of 4 of the Google WiFi points.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by titzer on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:14AM (#35852310)
Prior to replacing my furnace I had a mercury thermostat that was easily over 50 years old. The new one is digital but isn't "smart". I don't expect 50 years, but 20-30 seems reasonable. Somehow software people have forgotten that physical things last a long time, and people want them to keep working and stay the same as long as possible. My thermostat doesn't need "upgrades", and anyone who thinks they are going to "upgrade" my home remotely via software can get fucked.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:41AM (#35852563)
I wonder if we could wield regulation to discourage products that phone home without also providing the ability to:

- turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality

- set the "home" address to something on the lan, plus document the API

- install a cert so I can MITM the traffic and see what they're phoning home about

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by nobodyandproud on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:14PM (#35852950)
Right to repair?
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:06PM (#35853966)
It's in that direction, but I think existing right to repair legislation stops short of the right to exclude dependency on the manufacturer's infrastructure entirely.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by clnq on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:15PM (#35853516)
Or it could be done like GDPR — requiring consent and explaining what addresses the device will communicate to, what data will be sent, when, and for what purpose. GDPR requires that every purpose of personal data use is consented to and explained the same way — what data is collected, where it is processed, for how long it is retained, and for what purpose. New tech privacy laws could* definitely use something like this as a starting point.

* Assuming no malicious lobbying.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by behnamoh on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:00PM (#35853915)
> - turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality

Start with Windows, iOS (Siri), and pretty much any updateable software.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:05PM (#35856062)
There's updatable software that only updates when you tell it, and only to the version you tell it to, but it's certainly not the norm.

Let's change that. Anything less is a RCE vulnerability.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 13of40 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:28AM (#35852438)
Same here, but I want to say some bad things about old thermostats. My first house had propane heating, in a big tank that they would periodically come by and fill, so I had a visceral connection to how much fuel I was using. The previous owner had left the original 1960s mercury thermostats running the place, which meant that barring any initiative on my end the temperature was the same no matter if I was sleeping, at work, or whatever else it is people do. When I finally got around to replacing it with a digital programmable one, it cut my propane bill in half. Do you need to hook it to your smart phone? No, that's dumb. Do you need to choose between bleeding money vs. adjusting everything manually as part of your daily routine, like your grandfather winding the hallway clock? No, also dumb. Local digital is the way to go.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by s1artibartfast on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:55AM (#35852736)
Even that isn't a binary decision (haha). I have a 60 year old dumb analog thermostat and it solves that problem by having a big knob on it with time to set Heating and Cooling. No winding required.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by Espressosaurus on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:01PM (#35852803)
That's what the parent is saying. The new digital thermostats have some nice features without the stupidity that is IoT connectivity that allows the parent corporation to screw you over when they get bored.

I personally would not consider anything IoT because anything connected to the internet is a) a vector for intrusion into my network and b) has a lifetime measured in single digit years. Anything going into a home should realistically have a lifetime of at minimum ten years. For capital improvements like a furnace or thermometer connected to it (or a washing machine, or a stove), it should be measured in decades. Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs.

Google discards things after a handful of years. Anything cellphone related has a lifetime of 5 years max, and for most it's more like 2 to 3.

Keep that shit away from my home and my car.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 13of40 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:06PM (#35852850)
> Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs.

I'm staring at a pair of wifi enabled lightbulbs above the island in my kitchen that are stuck on the same hue I set them to three years ago when the app actually worked...

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by throwaway049 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:22PM (#35853036)
Are you not free to adjust the old thermostat when you leave for work or go to bed?
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by wlonkly on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:35PM (#35856270)
GP specifically said that they found that "also dumb".
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by pmcjones on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:40PM (#35854883)
Setback thermostats were invented a century ago — not digital.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 13of40 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:33PM (#35856252)
You're correct. I poked around to see what they were like and found this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134131981597

Adjusted for inflation this would cost almost $500. Probably explains why the ones in my bungalow starter home were just bimetallic coils with mercury switches.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by ksec on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:36AM (#35852515)
>Somehow software people have forgotten

Thank You. And that is precisely why I increasingly hate anything that comes with software.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by the_snooze on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:25PM (#35853062)
Internet-connected software is unavoidably fragile. Remote APIs change and malicious threats evolve. If a company doesn't want to provide long-term maintenance to head off those problems, then they shouldn't be baking in internet-connected software in simple consumer products.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by nunuvit on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:05PM (#35853957)
Really it's business people, and they haven't forgotten so much as they've recognized that software is more profitable.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by thayne on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:54AM (#35852733)
> Somehow software people have forgotten that physical things last a long time, and people want them to keep working and stay the same as long as possible

Maybe a little. But I think a big part of it is businesses realizing they can make a lot more money, at least in the short term, if people have to replace their products more often.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by eastbound on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:16PM (#35852973)
After maintaining online services, I’m quite sure it’s vulnerabilities. It’s extremely costly after 3-5 years to maintain old software.

Ex: You have a thermostat or an alarm system that runs Debian, Debian gets a vulnerability, you try to upgrade it, but you need to change Debian versions, and your old stack isn’t supported on the newer version. Nowadays you need to keep patching all your old appliances, keep the old domain names and exact URLs, and need to actively look for vulnerabilities. All of that can only be provided by a subscription, not the initial purchase cost:

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 9991 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:26PM (#35853066)
Perhaps it's too radical, but if this is the main concern, you could still build appliances with Linux that just aren't networked. Take a page out of Battlestar Galactica's playbook.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by thayne on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:20PM (#35853549)
Or at least, only connect to the local network.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 9991 on Monday May 08, 2023 @05:27AM (#35859692)
That’s an option for a consumer who knows what a VLAN is, but mass-market appliances need to have some barrier to network access.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by oceanplexian on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:54PM (#35854424)
My smart home stuff is all Z-Wave and my oldest devices are going on 10 years now. A light switch doesn’t need to be maintained or updated. I guess a hacker could drive up to my house with a laptop and a SDR, reverse engineer the protocol and then, I guess, turn my lights on and off? That’s a security tradeoff I’m willing to accept.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by thayne on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:41PM (#35869615)
Far more likely, is compromised devices are used as part of a botnet to DDoS a target, or as a stepping stone to getting to a more valuable target.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:45PM (#35853240)
I call it, "collective post nut clarity". The tech looks nice at CES but the users are waking up to the fact they now need to swap their mirror, thermostat, door locks, etc. every few years. Smart LED bulbs are ironic in that LED bulbs were supposed to be so efficient they would save the planet and now people regularly throw them in the garbage for "smart" features. Everything is a con.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by chaostheory on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:14PM (#35852949)
The main reason these new thermostats need upgrades is because they can be controlled remotely via the the internet. It’s a constant security issue.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cabalamat on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:24PM (#35853047)
> The new one is digital but isn't "smart".

I do not, nor will I ever use, any "smart" device. "Smart" devices are

- unnecessarily complicated

- privacy destroying

- overpriced

- vendor lock-in

- often infected with online ads you can't get rid of

- likely to stop working if the vendor goes bust, their business model changes, or they just feel like it

IMO, it is rarely or never a smart decision to get a "smart" device.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by the_snooze on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:29PM (#35853094)
The people who design those things have the exact mindset of an abusive partner:

- I want to know everything about you and who you talk to

- I will control and change things without your say-so

- You can't leave me easily

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by jamiek88 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:18PM (#35853529)
- but I can leave you whenever I want

- no you can’t know what you need to know to self host when I leave. How dare you think of other vendors that’s basically cheating on me

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SparkyMcUnicorn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:13PM (#35853488)
I fully respect when anyone decides they don't want smart devices, but all of your bullet points are quite easy to accomplish with off the shelf devices these days ("unnecessarily complicated" will always be debatable though).

All of my lights, outlets, and dozens of other niche things, never connect to the internet, and everything is fully functional when there's no internet connection.

Home Assistant with Zigbee devices is fantastic for avoiding vendor lock-in[0]. EspHome and Tasmota fill in nicely for if/when you want wifi devices.

[0] https://zigbee.blakadder.com/all.html

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by grepfru_it on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:45PM (#35854329)
Personally think zwave to be the most entrenched (commercial real estate relies heavily on zwave). The “cool” smart products typically exist as Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and zigbee devices (in that order). The requirements for those turn me off but I have been very successful with zwave. It powers everything from locks and lights to doors gates and my sprinkler system. HVAC is controlled by zwave and I even have a keychain scene controller that acts as a key fob to my house. When it comes close, it associates and that event can trigger a rule set.

I’m using openHAB instead of HA for the tinkerability, but the new versions are pretty power user friendly

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SparkyMcUnicorn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:20PM (#35855722)
Personally, I've found Zigbee devices to be much easier to find, much more reliable than Bluetooth, and the entire sector seems to be heading towards Matter, Thread, and Zigbee anyways.

My battery powered Zigbee devices last at least a year without needing a recharge/replacement, which was a huge selling point (door/vibration sensors, temperature, etc), although zwave is similar if I understand correctly. Most of mine are on year 3 now and probably need new batteries soon.

My order of preference would be Matter, Zigbee, Wifi, and Bluetooth being a last resort option. Z-wave isn't on the list only because I decided against getting a controller for it.

I love that we have options like this.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by acheron on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:36PM (#35855845)
I got a Hubitat box that has both Zwave and Zigbee. I've only ever used Zwave devices and they all work very well but I guess I have the option of Zigbee if I need it. I've avoided anything Wifi or Bluetooth. I don't really know what "Matter" is but I had thought it was a Google thing, which I would certainly avoid at all costs. Maybe I misunderstood it though.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SparkyMcUnicorn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:38PM (#35856647)
* * *
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by acheron on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:27PM (#35857743)
Interesting, guess we'll see what comes from that. Thanks.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by grepfru_it on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:43PM (#35855896)
That’s the thing you need four different methods to access the protocols you describe. Of those protocols you listed, zwave operates at the lowest frequency giving you the best coverage. And has all the same benefits of zigbee (auto healing, mesh network). So yeah there are options but some of them just make no sense (as you pointed out)
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by boring_twenties on Monday May 08, 2023 @02:40AM (#35858794)
I am completely unable to understand why any of these devices need any kind of wireless radio at all.

They're all plugged into wall power all the time, and powerline Ethernet works fine.

What am I missing?

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by adobin on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:47PM (#35863843)
You can look at several types in that list that don't have wall power easily or always available. Door and window sensors, which could be solved similar to older alarm systems, but have a significantly lower barrier to entry being wireless. There are convenience and accessibility benefits to allowing wireless battery-powered switches to control your devices. Wi-Fi can be an answer for a lot of these but there are battery life and coverage benefits to the mesh behavior of these networks without needing to spend a lot to expand your Wi-Fi coverage.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by fennecfoxy on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:11AM (#35873131)
Why would I plug sensors, that sip power, into a power point?

When I have humidity/temperature, light, motion, etc in every single room how many freaking power points am I meant to have in my house, aha. Maybe American houses have walls absolutely studded with power points but most other places don't.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SparkyMcUnicorn on Saturday May 13, 2023 @02:07PM (#35930979)
> They're all plugged into wall power all the time

Most of the remotes switches, sensors, and some others are all battery powered and last at least a year without needing to be changed.

In fact, they would be largely useless or cumbersome if they needed a wire.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cabalamat on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @09:21AM (#35873922)
I have lights in my home too. If I want to turn a light on or off, I get up, walk three steps, and turn the light switch on.

I could make all this computer controlled over a home server if I wanted to, but what's the point?

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SparkyMcUnicorn on Saturday May 13, 2023 @02:23PM (#35931138)
Convenience. Some people don't desire it, and that's fine.

My wife said the same thing as you at first, and originally had no desire for any of it.

Instead of buying dimmer switches to replace the on/off wall switches, I got dimmers that go in the gang box behind the existing switches. I did this for her, because she preferred a real switch and now we can on/off with a real switch or control brightness/on/off with voice, app, or zigbee remotes.

Since I did this on all our wall switches, my wife went from using the real switches 100% of the time to now around 0-5% of the time. When we're away from home she always makes a comment on how annoying it is to NOT have it.

Asking for a brightness change while watching a movie or cooking with dirty hands, automatically tuning the lights to something warmer at night and brighter during the day, forgot to turn something off and you're already in bed, automatically turn on the lights inside the front door when we open it with an arm full of stuff, having energy monitoring, virtual 3-way switches without any re-wiring, adding additional lights to switches that don't have real switches, controlling the TV without a remote, the list goes on.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by biztos on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:02PM (#35853935)
I dipped my toe ever so cautiously into "smart home" territory last year, buying three "smart" lightbulbs at the Apple Store, but only talking to them over Bluetooth.

(At least, I think I'm only doing that: I suppose it's possible the software that talks to them via BT got them on my WiFi without my permission? Doubtful but hmmm...)

Anyway at some point there was a software update to the controller app and it couldn't find them. After much back and forth, I uninstalled that app, and the iPhone's iHome or whatever app then recognized two of them, but not the third. That one started freaking out and randomly turning itself on and off.

Now it's mostly off, but comes on for a bit about once a week. Yes, I'm lazy about changing lightbulbs.

All this drama for... freakin' lightbulbs that can change color. Doesn't make me want to further smartify my home.

I figure some simple fake LED candles are my future mood lighting. I'd spring for a Mathmos Lava Lamp[0] if they didn't look like sex toys.

[0]: https://mathmos.com/lava-lamps/lava-lamps-for-children-and-a...

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by fennecfoxy on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:12AM (#35873152)
I hope you're not serious about the sex toy thing lmao, I thought we were all over that sort of prudishness by now or is it a I don't eat hot dogs cause I'm a man sort of thing
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by AmVess on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:51PM (#35854384)
I tried a few of Amazon's Echo devices. I didn't spend much on them except for the big speaker. It used to be ok, but now it asks me to sign up for Unlimited music every single voice prompt. This exactly ended my desire to get anything else made by Amazon.

I used to have an Ecobee thermostat. A good idea, but it wouldn't work at all without a connection to their server. Their server uptime was a complete joke which made my thermostat useless.

I also had a few smart plugs for lamps.

I spent way too much time fiddling with all this garbage, so I trashed it all.

All these "smart" devices are anything but.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by matteoraso on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:54PM (#35855014)
Adding to this, I just don't see the use case for "smart" devices. The difference between me getting up and checking the thermometer vs checking the thermometer using my phone is 10 seconds, max.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by wlonkly on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:34PM (#35856260)
For me it's metrics.

We have a heat pump, so we change the temperature roughly twice a year: heating temperature in winter, air conditioning temperature in summer.

But my Ecobee reports the temperature in three rooms (and occupancy, which I tie into automating lights), outside temperature, outside and inside humidity, fan/heat/cool start/stop times, and some other more obscure metrics up to the mothership, and the excellent third-party website Beestat[1] tracks all of those using Ecobee's well-documented API. It lets me spot anomalies, and helps me understand if I've got the resistive heating configured to come on at the best time.

If we had time-of-day rates for electricity, it would optimize for those, but we don't have time-of-day-rates.

(If I had gas heat, or if I didn't work from home, I'd at least schedule temperature changes to set things cooler at night or when we're away -- maybe driven by the occupancy sensors! -- but apparently that's not effective with heat pumps.

[1] https://beestat.io/

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by jrockway on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:59PM (#35855062)
I used to feel this way, but don't anymore. Smart devices don't all go out to the cloud; you can easily build a completely-local smart home that nobody on the Internet can control or monitor. This is the default in Apple's ecosystem (though they integrate with cloud services if you want), and you don't even have to use a major tech company's ecosystem. You can install Home Assistant on a Raspberry Pi and build your own local-only accessories with ESPHome and similar.

I find a mix of DIY and premade devices to be pretty good. I have all of my lights on Lutron Caseta (completely local, works when Internet is down) and can control them from my workstation, the wall, physical remotes, Apple devices, and Siri. I have Home Assistant bridged to Home Assistant, so can do things like control my workstation's LEDs from the Home app or Siri. Home Assistant has kind of interesting integrations, like something that reads the humidity sensor in my bathroom and the outdoor humidity to suggest how long the window needs to be opened to properly ventilate it after a shower.

I think the smart home is pretty OK. It gives you a single pane of glass to control all controllable devices, which ends up being quite worthwhile. (On a video call and need more light? Just switch them on from your computer. Too cold? Turn down the AC. No corporate tracking, just convenience.)

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by JohnFen on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:09AM (#35857981)
Exactly.

The worst thing that came from "the internet of things" is that people now assume that having great home automation equates to having to use cloud-connected devices that aren't really under your control. It just isn't so.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by cultureswitch on Monday May 08, 2023 @05:05PM (#35867065)
For people who aren't tech-savvy that is pretty much correct though.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by fennecfoxy on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:09AM (#35873108)
It would all be helped if the gov were to include a law forcing all IoT companies to support at least a minimum standard protocol so everything plugs together and make it possible for these things to work without downloading their app/signing up to an account. Also making it illegal for devices to phone home via the internet by default.

But then there's a lot of stuff that our governments could solve but they never will.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by airbreather on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:23PM (#35857140)
That is why if you really want one, make it yourself
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by stjohnswarts on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:44PM (#35857542)
meh they don't have to be privacy destroying. Home automation forums on reddit have some pretty good lists of what to get and ones that are interoperable. I looked into it but I guess I'm just happy with switches and dumb thermostats.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by fennecfoxy on Tuesday May 09, 2023 @08:07AM (#35873095)
- likely to stop working if the vendor goes bust, their business model changes, or they just feel like it

This is true of anything these days...hell even as someone who's into electronics/firmware development stuff and whatnot, I wouldn't even bother trying to fix a $20-50 (or even more) device, let alone the average person. Stuff is complicated enough these days that you pretty much have to become the expert on any device in order to fix it.

The Xiaomi zigbee stuff is pretty good/standard, amongst others. IoT can be great, I find the most useful thing is using cheap Xiaomi motion sensors with wifi led lights so that lights turn on/off based on presence in the room.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by brookst on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:45PM (#35853238)
> physical things last a long time

There's a lot of survivor bias here. I have had plenty of dumb physical things fail in what seems like unreasonably short times.

But I do have done physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old. I do not interpret that to mean that everything from that era / factory / manufacturer lasts 100 years, just that all of the surviving items did.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by clnq on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:19PM (#35853533)
Reliability of anything can be described by the same generic bathtub curve — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve. We used to have a lot of technology that would wear out very slowly, but early failure was more common. Now most technology doesn't last more than a year or two, but generally doesn't fail upfront.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by notjoemama on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:09PM (#35853984)
> But I do have done physical dumb devices

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand the point you're making. Two verbs against the same subject but with different temporal context, perhaps you stuggle with communicating sometimes?

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by uoaei on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:18PM (#35854658)
Obviously a typo -- done -> some

This is a weirdly confrontational comment.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by titzer on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:39PM (#35854869)
> physical dumb devices

Physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old are usually made out of pretty durable, but individually replaceable parts. Thus they get fixed if they do break. The mechanisms are usually pretty easy to figure out, so you can spot if a spring is broken, a bolt is loose, a thing stopped turning, etc.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by bgro on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:26PM (#35857160)
Software for maintenance devices shouldn't be written so it forces people to use a cloud service unless they can guarantee that will always work. There's about 1000 points of failure in that.

Actually, I'm pretty sure DVDs and music CDs and games only exist because that was their only option. If you look at what the law is and what they're trying to do, you don't own the rights to the game you buy.

If they could forcefully take it back from you and disable the in game radio because their license expired, they would. And they do, when they can. Same with movies you "buy" instead of renting for money. They can and do just change their licensing and remove it from your account.

Game launchers also do this. If you get banned in 1 game, they can just delete your entire account and all linked services because you're not really buying the game.

You're barely even buying a license to use it. You basically have zero rights other than where technology has limited them.

Anyway, that aside, software shouldn't be your only concern. It has all of the visibility right now, but tech hardware should also be up there. Physical life of tech is currently terrible. An unopened, factory sealed electronic left in a store will still die after like 5 to 10 years. Nobody wants to or can feasibly repair it so it's just e-waste. Analog equipment exists for some things with higher tech solutions adding functionality and reducing power in some cases, but I'm curious to see more data about how these truly compare.

I came across this while looking at how to backup data for a long time. I was also curious about the case of analog devices in space. It's been hard to find a lot of info about it.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by stjohnswarts on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:42PM (#35857529)
The one I just replaced was going on the fritz after 25 years (15 years old when I moved into this house, I checked the mfg date). I got another pretty dumb (but programmable) thermostat that isn't wifi anything. So I think you made a good call on 20-30 years.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by 13of40 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:17AM (#35852338)
It's kind of the way of the world now, not just Google. I've accumulated a ton of stuff that just doesn't work anymore or works in a crippled local-only mode because the service doesn't exist anymore or drivers/software stopped getting updates. What's really sad is buying something, having a little bit of fun with it, then going back to it a year or two later and finding out it's a brick now. Or just buying something "new" and finding out it was born into the grave.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by SomeHacker44 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:29AM (#35852446)
Recently I noticed I could not turn my Nest thermostat "off" anymore, on the device or on the app. Wait, what??? Any ideas?
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by toast0 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:41PM (#35853743)
I've never seen that? But pull it off the baseplate and it'll be off. ;p
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by ksec on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:33AM (#35852479)
>I feel like this is just one more thing that Google leadership is failing at.

Apart from increasing ad revenue, there isn't a single thing that Google's leadership has been succeeding.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by dheera on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:17PM (#35852986)
> Another example was my old Nest thermostat.

Speaking of Nest, I got rate limited trying to access images from my own Nest camera. WTF? I paid for it and I own it. I will get as much rate from it as the hardware can support.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by jahewson on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:59PM (#35853355)
I’m using Nest without a Google Account. It nags me to migrate but I’ve never done so. I deleted my Google account because I was using a custom domain and Google moved that functionality to Workspace and wanted to charge for it, while half of Google products don’t support it fully and there was no migration path to a regular account. I could pay for something broken or loose all my data. So I wrote some scripts and migrated to iCloud.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by sho_hn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:10PM (#35853993)
Hardware companies get a lot of flak for inadquate software. On the other hand, software companies have no idea what kind of commitment it means to launch a product line. Hardware companies don't do this without determining lifespan/support window ahead of time and designing for it; sw companies basically do whatever, you can always shut it down.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by ChuckMcM on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:15PM (#35854036)
I could not agree more with this sentiment. On an abstract level it is really interesting to me to see if this is how open source eventually wins all the things. I have an ASUS WiFi AP that has been running DD-WRT->OpenWRT for 15 years at this point (changing the underlying hardware twice, once to get 802.11n, and again to get 802.11ac).

I look forward to the day when there are "standard schematics" for this sort of gear which has the level of interoperability that has been achieved in USB and WiFi.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by Corrado on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:45PM (#35854330)
Funnily enough, there used to be "standard schematics" provided with electronic things. I think my first computer (VIC-20?) had pretty detailed information on the external ports (joystick, power, printer, etc.) I also look forward to the time when we get back what we used to have.
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by flanbiscuit on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:19PM (#35854080)
I had the same router they stopped supporting, it worked great but I ended up buying their newer nest wifi because I also wanted a mesh point. They work great as well. I am waiting for the day they also stop supporting them. What's the alternative? What company makes good routers that would get updates over many years? My guess is that I should be looking at ones where I can flash a open source firmware (OpenWRT?)
Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by midoridensha on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:29AM (#35858097)
>What company makes good routers that would get updates over many years? My guess is that I should be looking at ones where I can flash a open source firmware (OpenWRT?)

Yes, that's exactly it. You have to look for routers that are well-supported by OpenWRT or DD-WRT or Tomato. You can't trust any company to support their product over a very long time period any more.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by George83728 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:33PM (#35854207)
For all their faults (I no longer buy their products) Apple is, or at least traditionally was, a company that makes money by making and selling things, so they try to be good at making things.

Google is an advertising company that occasionally tries making and selling things to cope with the insecurity they feel about being an advertising company. But they've never been good at it and never will be.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by rektide on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:17PM (#35857690)
It'll be interesting to see if this repeats.

I have a little bit of sympathy for eliminating a 6 year old wifi router, largely because it was built around some Qualcomm chipsets on what was probably at that time a 2+ year old linux kernel. This is Qualcomm's fault. Qualcomm provides awful Board Support Packages with limited shelf life. Qualcomm makes disposable products.

Now, I do think it's awful that Google built thing in such a way that the router is entirely unconfigurable after it runs out of support. That's absurd. But I do pity Google for using one of the only options available to them & it being an absolute awful unsupportable shit show.

It's part Qualcomm & part community, but we are starting to see a lot more work upstreaming Qualcomm drivers. It gives me hope that some of the openwrt routers folks buy today will remain good & usable & secure & reasonably capable, even in 10, 15, even 20 years.

Re:I'm never investing in Google's smart home ecosystem again by Trias11 on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:09AM (#35861667)
I used Nest and my experience was that no matter settings I configure, Google always override something with what "they think" is better for me.

We eventually sold the house, otherwise frustration would continue