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Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by jauntywundrkind on Monday March 17, 2025 @02:44PM (#43391550)
I'm low key afraid that this stuff is gonna get popular for .mil usage.

Line of sight free space optics can be immune to many many forms of jamming. Its usage dots the sci books I've read over the years, but almost always for scary reasons.

Here's the Navy today announcing work on AirBorne System for Optical Relay and Broadcast (ABSORB), a (for now) low-cost prototype one-to-many (I maybe mis-inferring what multi-access means?) relayable free space system, https://defence-blog.com/us-navy-plans-to-revolutionize-nava...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ecshafer on Monday March 17, 2025 @02:53PM (#43391652)
Should the military not have internet? If laser based internet is better than satellite or microwave or wireless (I assume the military uses these three). Then isn't that good?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by geek_at on Monday March 17, 2025 @03:05PM (#43391752)
Not if Trump has control over them
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by r14c on Monday March 17, 2025 @03:22PM (#43391889)
That's the interesting paradox of technological development. If it's out of the bag, then it's out of bag, but that cuts both ways. You can never control who will gain access to advancements. Even if you trust the custodians now, you don't know who they will be in the future, &c. Eventually you end up at a fork: either pursue and endless technological arms race or find some way to build lasting cooperative and peaceful relationships. As they say, the surest way to destroy your enemy is to make them your friend. Still a massive challenge, but presumably that's why empires eventually always fail. They don't know how to make friends.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ashoeafoot on Monday March 17, 2025 @05:39PM (#43392981)
There are no warrior cultures in space.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by LoganDark on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:28PM (#43393852)
> As they say, the surest way to destroy your enemy is to make them your friend.

Defeat, not destroy. The best way to defeat an enemy is to make them your friend. Destroying someone would not be very friendly (unless they want to be destroyed).

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dzhiurgis on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:08PM (#43394676)
You cannot control, but you can backdoor
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by lutherqueen on Monday March 17, 2025 @02:50PM (#43391620)
How is better communication scary for military? The weapons themselves are
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by FlyingBears on Monday March 17, 2025 @04:27PM (#43392421)
Jam resistant comms are critical for drones, and other precision weapons and their infrastructure. Even if line of sight is interrupted modern drones can return to signal nowadays, relay information, and return to target with corrections. You may not need optical cable anymore
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by HeatrayEnjoyer on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:30PM (#43393402)
I expect drones will become fire-and-forget in two to three years. They won't be jammable because the pilot is in the drone.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pclmulqdq on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:54PM (#43393582)
Fire-and-forget drones already exist. They are called missiles.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by IncreasePosts on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:56PM (#43394116)
Missiles generally go from point A and then blow up point b. Are there any missiles that leave base, fly around for a bit trying to identify targets, and if they can't identify any targets then return home?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pclmulqdq on Monday March 17, 2025 @08:05PM (#43394191)
I said that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but the line between "drone" and "missile" seems to have gotten pretty blurry with the Ukraine war featuring FPV drones holding a hand grenade that are effectively a human-piloted missile.

Some modern missiles can fly around to identify targets, but they can't return home. They can blow up harmlessly if nothing is a target, though. They can also dodge and weave the way FPV pilots do.

Obviously, "drone" has a much more expansive mission profile than "missile."

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by gloosx on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:56AM (#43396165)
Missle is a projectile, propelled by rocket motor. Drone is an aircraft vehicle, capable of transporting explosives or whatever. There is a fat line between drone and a missile, there are different in everything: control, speed, trajectory, weight, flying principles. I don't know how you can say they are even close. Just because both fly and do boom? Then you can say there is a thin line between cow launched from catapult and a missile.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by robin_reala on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:16AM (#43397184)
Cruise missiles are missiles without rockets.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by inkcapmushroom on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:06AM (#43399554)
A cow launched from a catapult is indeed a missile, if we want to be pedantic.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by timerol on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:04AM (#43399535)
The term you're looking for is loitering munitions. From Wikipedia: "Some loitering munitions may return and be recovered by the operator if they are unused in an attack and have enough fuel"
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by stirfish on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:04PM (#43395013)
You are describing cruise missiles
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by spwa4 on Monday March 17, 2025 @03:31PM (#43391973)
I think you're too late. Pretty sure the military has line-of-sight free-space-optics to satellites since at least the second Iraq war.

One can only wonder how small the "receivers" (routers, really) have gotten by now.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by rhubarbtree on Monday March 17, 2025 @05:46PM (#43393051)
Cubesats carry laser comms if that's what you mean.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:47PM (#43393521)
Those work in vacuum though so you need a bit less laser power. The atmosphere attenuates your signal if you’re doing ground to ground or ground to aircraft links so you probably need a bit more laser power. But I agree that that’s probably not the difficult thing about the whole system.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by whatever1 on Monday March 17, 2025 @02:46PM (#43391578)
But smoke/cloud kills them.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dreamcompiler on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:56AM (#43395918)
Not necessarily. Depends on the wavelength.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by umvi on Monday March 17, 2025 @05:50PM (#43393084)
> Line of sight free space optics can be immune to many many forms of jamming

The most powerful weapons on earth already are immune to jamming. ICBMs use celestial navigation (pictures of the stars) to course-correct, which is a form of navigation you cannot jam.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by aerostable_slug on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:56PM (#43393599)
To risk being pedantic, US SLBMs (Tridents) indeed use stellar updates for their inertial guidance system.

Our ICBMs have no update mechanism at all. Once they're out of the silo, they're completely on their own.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by HPsquared on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:42PM (#43393996)
ICBMs would be more confident in their starting position and orientation, though, at least. SLBMs would necessarily have more uncertainty in the initial conditions.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by varispeed on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:36AM (#43398676)
You can create nuclear load so powerful it won't matter where it hits.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by m4rtink on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:48AM (#43398791)
Teller, is that you ?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:01PM (#43405063)
"close only matters in horseshoes and nuclear strikes"
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:50PM (#43394942)
The BM part means "Ballistic Missile", which sounds like they're basically "thrown" into a parabolic path towards their target, like a falling rock.

Or am I over-interpreting the name?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by gghffguhvc on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:42PM (#43395237)
Have a read of how MERV part of some ICBMs works. Lots going on as far as targeting goes. Also take a look at Trident 2 which can use GPS for course correction but isn’t reliant on it.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dreamcompiler on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:42AM (#43395838)
That's exactly the right interpretation. You chuck them into space and after the rocket quits, Isaac Newton takes over.

Contrast hypervelocity weapons, which -- contrary to the name -- don't really go faster but they can maneuver in the atmosphere at that speed.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by beardedmoose on Monday March 17, 2025 @11:25PM (#43395469)
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.

In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.

The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bagels on Monday March 17, 2025 @11:45PM (#43395566)
Why is this meme always pasted in to threads about missile guidance?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by michaelsbradley on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:06AM (#43395660)
Because it’s a classic gag, even if it’s out of place on HN

https://youtu.be/bZe5J8SVCYQ?feature=shared

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by debugnik on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @03:42AM (#43396663)
Not just an online gag, that's related to an excerpt of an alleged December 1997 issue of "Association of Air Force Missileers" on the GLCM Guidance System. Likely submitted in jest.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050514035446/http://www.afmiss...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by tryauuum on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:06PM (#43393658)
that is so romantic. Rockets looking at the stars one last time before obliterating $cityname
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by HPsquared on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:44PM (#43394010)
Observing distant nuclear fusion, before unleashing it locally.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by gonzo on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:48PM (#43394049)
fission != fusion, but yeah
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by chairhairair on Monday March 17, 2025 @08:02PM (#43394166)
I’ve got some bad news for you about modern nuclear weapons.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by graevy on Monday March 17, 2025 @08:05PM (#43394192)
h-bombs do both
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by juancampa on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:07PM (#43395039)
fission + fusion
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bagels on Monday March 17, 2025 @11:47PM (#43395574)
The fission primary is used to trigger a secondary fusion reaction in modern weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dreamcompiler on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:48AM (#43395860)
All fusion weapons are fission weapons first (like a few nanoseconds first).

All fission weapons are not necessarily also fusion weapons. But probably most are nowadays.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by Tuna-Fish on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:53AM (#43396425)
Every nuclear weapon in the active US stockpile has a secondary fusion stage, the last pure fission weapons were removed from service and dismantled in 1992.

Most of the cost in a nuclear weapon is in the primary. It only makes sense to build pure fission weapons when you want very low-powered nukes for close range tactical use; the DoD has determined that don't see enough use for them to justify the upkeep of specific weapons.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:02PM (#43405079)
i've been to $cityname many times. there are lot of available single women there near me in $cityname
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:45PM (#43393504)
This form of navigation is probably only accurate enough for nuclear weapons, you’re not going to get meter-Range CEPs with that. You probably have to select a city you want to hit.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by aerostable_slug on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:02PM (#43393636)
This is a very good read on the state of the art when it comes to submarine-launched missile accuracy, which are presently inertially guided with a stellar update during flight.

https://thebulletin.org/2017/03/how-us-nuclear-force-moderni...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:07PM (#43393676)
Thanks for the link, very interesting. So CEP is estimated to be around 100m. Better than I thought but I wouldn’t call it hitting a specific house yet.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ants_everywhere on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:22PM (#43394774)
What do you consider the primary benefit of pinpointing a particular house in nuclear war?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by Game_Ender on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:34PM (#43395184)
I don’t know if it matters now but at some point certain targets were hardened to near misses of certain sizes but not direct strikes. So the better your accuracy the smaller the weapon (or fewer) you can use to take out those targets.

So you could say the use would be increased certainty your enemies command and control and other bunkers would be destroyed increasing the odds of “winning” whatever happens afterwards.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by layla5alive on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:04AM (#43395961)
There is no "winning" in global thermonuclear war... :/
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @06:05AM (#43397545)
That’s why I said the guidance is only really usable for nuclear weapons. I wasn’t saying the guidance is bad, I was saying it’s not accurate to a few meters.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43393504

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ants_everywhere on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:17PM (#43401986)
Oh you're right, my bad. I got lost in the conversation and looking into the types of guidance systems and I forgot that was your original point.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by cogman10 on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:52PM (#43393561)
While you probably can't target a cigarette butt on the street, you could definitely hit a building. Especially if the ICBM is paired with image recognition (which it has already for star nav) and/or backup positioning mechanisms like cell tower locations or well-known broadcasting tower locations (think television stations).
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:02PM (#43393634)
An ICBM is coming in at hypersonic speeds in the terminal phase, you’re not going to guide it anywhere using cell tower signals. The guidance is done much earlier.

And I would doubt image recognition for ground features would make it that accurate, too. Before reentry, you’re very high and fast and reentry isn’t that predictable to get you accurate enough to hit a house. And during reentry, you’re not going to see anything though plasma. And after reentry, you probably don’t have enough time and control authority to still guide into a specific house.

ICBM guidance is very different from cruise missiles.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by alienthrowaway on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:33PM (#43393909)
> An ICBM is coming in at hypersonic speeds in the terminal phase, you’re not going to guide it anywhere using cell tower signals.

Hypersonic glide ICBMs have been successfully tested by China, and are under development in the US, so it's entirely possible to maneuver, and optionally guide them in the terminal, though perhaps not advisable on a jammable channel, except perhaps as an anti-radiation weapon.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by datadrivenangel on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:32PM (#43393898)
Yeah that would work for drones and slow cruise missiles but not ICBMs.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dzhiurgis on Monday March 17, 2025 @08:57PM (#43394598)
Quantum navigation is likely to be more precise.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by Galatians4_16 on Monday March 17, 2025 @11:45PM (#43395565)
Down to the Planck scale?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by twobitshifter on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:44PM (#43394921)
well there is this now as well - you don’t need to use the stars when you already have detailed aerial images of the earth - https://www.spectacularai.com/gps-free
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bsimpson on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:14PM (#43393271)
Can you imagine if someone just turned off the sky?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by faraaz98 on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:46PM (#43393514)
Who are you? Cixin Liu?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by sunshinerag on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:52PM (#43393564)
The universe winks for thee.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by runako on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:27PM (#43393378)
Spin by Robert Charles Wilson is based on this premise.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by AyyEye on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:08PM (#43393686)
Singularity Sky

Nine Billion Names of God

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by charliebwrites on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:14PM (#43393269)
Damn guess we have to blow up the stars

…you know, for defense

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by echoangle on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:45PM (#43393509)
Or create a lot of artificial ones to confuse the missile.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by rapind on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:53PM (#43393572)
Swarms to block the cameras maybe?

At this point though, couldn’t you just blow up your own country and thus accelerate warming so much as to doom the rest of humanity in a dozen years? I might have read the wrong article on that though so don’t quote me.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by LoganDark on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:26PM (#43393829)
Aperture Science would do it.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by charliebwrites on Monday March 17, 2025 @11:26PM (#43395478)
They still owe me some cake
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by quinndexter on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:52AM (#43396421)
I have terrible news regarding said cake.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by freddie_mercury on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:04AM (#43395964)
This makes me wonder how many fake stars an adversary would have to put up (and for how long?) in order to confuse a celestial navigation system.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by sorokod on Monday March 17, 2025 @05:51PM (#43393093)
Something similar was available since the previous century for ship to ship communications where there is a line of sight.

Such communications can't be intercepted or triangulated.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by walrus01 on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:00PM (#43393158)
Free space optics were attempted extensively in the ISP space 15, 20 years ago for FDD 1 Gbps links at short distances roof to roof in major metro areas, they're EXTREMELY vulnerable to falling over in rain/snow conditions, and path length limitations, compared to 71 to 86 GHz millimeter wave (using a 2000 MHz wide FDD channel going each way in a high/low split). I'm very skeptical.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by reaperducer on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:05PM (#43393200)
I'm low key afraid that this stuff is gonna get popular for .mil usage.

They've probably had it for decades. Laser communication was being used by commercial TV stations in the U.S. in the 1990's. WNBC-TV in New York used a laser to transmit video from its Manhattan skyline camera in New Jersey back to 30 Rock.

I have a vague notion that it didn't work great in all weather conditions, but it was a long time ago.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by cogman10 on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:47PM (#43393523)
LOS communications has been around for a long time now in the form of microwave towers. [1]

But further, jamming is still doable, just not with a portable electronic device. Stir up some dust and all the sudden coms are down.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by miohtama on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:51PM (#43393556)
I was doing communications in military. For temporary networks, we used microwave links and they requires line of sight. The reason to use direct link is that missiles can be easily targeted to any radio source you can hear and take down the network.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by cogman10 on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:56PM (#43393597)
Yeah, I was aware of this because of work with telecommunications in rural locations. Nobody is burying a cable over a mountain, that's too expensive and too much work. So instead, they'll setup microwave towers. Being on a mountain has the benefit that you are already in elevated locations that are easy to shoot a phone signal across the range.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by XorNot on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @03:01AM (#43396459)
It's worth noting that free space laser comms would also have this problem though: the atmosphere has dust, and any IR detector will see bloom and reflection of dust from a laser which will draw a straight line right back to the emitter.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pclmulqdq on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:52PM (#43393565)
Shoot a laser pointer at the receiver and there's a good chance you have jammed the thing.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by slt2021 on Monday March 17, 2025 @08:22PM (#43394362)
how do you detect/find the receiver? thats seems to be a problem
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by _carbyau_ on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:17PM (#43394745)
I thought comms was two way.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by slt2021 on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:57PM (#43395323)
so you have a laser and want to jam the comms channel. How do you find where the comms channel is, where is the receiver, where do you point your laser to jam enemy comms?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by _carbyau_ on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:21AM (#43396289)
I agree it is not an easy task. But lasers can be detected with the right equipment (think the classic "laser through fog" but happening to plain air molecules), unit movements can be tracked and straight sight line is a significant logistical restriction.

But if they were only receiving. Well, that's going to be pretty hard to confirm and even if you "jam" it, then so what?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by Tuna-Fish on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @03:01AM (#43396456)
> But lasers can be detected with the right equipment (think the classic "laser through fog" but happening to plain air molecules)

You are assuming that the only source emitting at the specific wavelength is the laser you are targeting. This is not how it would work, the side using laser comms would also fly decoy drones that bathe the sky in the same wavelength as the comms channel.

This is also key part of how LPI radars on stealth aircraft work. Yes, in a spherical cow in vacuum environment you can in principle always trace a radar signal back to its source. But add a whole bunch MALDs radiating on the same band as the radars, and suddenly it becomes impossible to pinpoint the sources.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pclmulqdq on Monday March 17, 2025 @06:51PM (#43393554)
There's already military usage of similar devices. I wouldn't be surprised if Taara has a supplier that also supplies several militaries.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by krisoft on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:13PM (#43393723)
> Line of sight free space optics can be immune to many many forms of jamming.

I’m a bit of two minds about this. Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities.

But the lack of it is what drives and will drive militaries around the world to put more and more autonomy into weapons. It doesn’t matter what kind of treaties we write on paper to prohibit technologies. During a war if your drones/loitering munition are less effective than those of your enemies because your control signals are jammed you will give in and make your weapons find their target without that control signal. That leads to an arm race of ever more sophisticated autonomous weapons. That is scarry for many reasons, and probably a worse outcome for all of us.

On the other hand if communication is possible that puts a leash on this dynamic and ensurers that a human mind can remain in the loop. So… maybe being better at jamming resistant communication is actually better for humankind?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:41PM (#43394906)
I got seriously terrified by reading a PKD SF story at 15 about the few surviving humans hiding from war drones still hunting people long after the war had ended.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by stevenwoo on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:18PM (#43395094)
Second Variety, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety I've commented this before but it is closer to Terminator than the Harlan Ellison story IMO.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @11:23AM (#43400542)
Yeah, that was the one. Really burned itself into my mind.

The movie was OK, but you can only get shocked once.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by stevenwoo on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:49PM (#43402405)
Similar but reverse, I felt unfortunate to have read the novelette after watching Terminator because part way in the story I thought - this is almost all of the AI/self replicating autonomous robot points of the Terminator movie just without the time travel. The movie addition of time travel adds a bit of hope to an otherwise totally bleak story resolution.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by rstuart4133 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:26PM (#43407713)
Haven't read the book, but I did see "Screamers". Wikipedia says: "Future Imperfect: Philip K. Dick at the Movies, writes that the film is more faithful than most other adaptations".

I can't comment on whether that's true, but the movie still haunts me. Odd, since as Wikipedia says "it received a mixed critical reception and failed at the box office". There was nothing mixed about my reception of it.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:40PM (#43405484)
It's pretty wild that PKD imagined AI controlled combat drones in 1953, and 70 years we'll soon have them.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by falcor84 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:12AM (#43395992)
I haven't read that one, but it reminds me of Black Mirror's "Metalhead", which absolutely terrified me.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by yownie on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:35AM (#43396352)
The movie Screamers (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114367/) is based off it, decent sci-fi.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:00PM (#43405050)
draws from the same well, intellectually. terrifying stuff, that BM episode is, too.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by femto on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:39PM (#43395219)
> On the other hand if communication is possible that puts a leash on this dynamic

I'm a bit more pessimistic than that. I think the driver for autonomy will be that the speed at which things happen on the battlefield. People being attacked with automated weapons might not be able to make response related decisions fast enough. The automation will be in place to enable a rapid response. It will become an arms race involving speed of attack and response. It will be the military equivalent of high-frequency trading, involving things like swarms and directed energy weapons.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ethbr1 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:13AM (#43395687)
The phrase you're looking for is OODA loop, popularized in the 80s.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategi...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dataviz1000 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @03:04AM (#43396472)
> Boyd’s Law of Iteration: speed of iteration beats quality of iteration [0]

[0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/boyds-law-of-iteration/

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ethbr1 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:34AM (#43399944)
Also, Patton's classic 'a good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week'
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by genewitch on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:54AM (#43398860)
I personally won't worry until microwave ovens are regulated. I'm still sore that I didn't publish a decade ago.

c.f. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6XdcWToy2c

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by thfuran on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:21AM (#43399137)
What?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by proaralyst on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @06:41AM (#43397817)
Ukraine's drones are already partly automated because of the jamming environment: they can visually lock the drone onto a target from up to 10km away.[0][1] They're also using drones that trail a fibre optic over several kilometres to avoid jamming.[2]

[0] https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2025/03/12/... [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/ukraines-future-vision-and-cur... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/11/07/ukrain...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:50AM (#43398803)
Dang what does a drone carriable several kilometer fiber spool look like?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pjc50 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:29AM (#43399225)
The lower canister in the last of the three links, https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/11/07/ukrain...

Difficult to judge scale, maybe the size of a drinks can or food can? Fiber is pretty thin.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bprater on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:50AM (#43399394)
Half a can of soda. The main electronics controller visible in the photo is likely 20x20 or 30x30mm, the standard for FPV style drones.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by j245 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:23AM (#43399171)
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by temp0826 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:41AM (#43399311)
I was pretty shocked to find out that wire-guided missiles were(/are?) a thing. This seems easier than that.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:50AM (#43399389)
Pretty sure they were in the thousand feet range, not multiple kilometers…
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:52AM (#43399410)
(Welp… 3 km range… though to me wire that long seems like it’d be easier than optical cable back in the 70s)
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by mrguyorama on Wednesday March 19, 2025 @01:51PM (#43415216)
Wire guided is still the primary means of guiding torpedos from submarines, because it gives you an unjammable, un-interceptible, consistent communication interface, and in torpedoes the wire spools out for tens of kilometers.

If you want something really cool, look up old fashioned TV guidance. We built weapons that guided based a TV signal, and edge detection in that signal. In 1958.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @04:59PM (#43405033)
basically like a cheapo SACLOS missle, i.e. the TOW missile, which have been using that (fiber) approach for decades now.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by lupusreal on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:29PM (#43401337)
> already partly automated because of the jamming environment: they can visually lock the drone onto a target from up to 10km away

This capability is basically a reinvention of the walleye television bomb, which locked onto targets using edge detection on a signal from an internal television camera. 1960s technology.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by j-krieger on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @06:49AM (#43397855)
> Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities

They are not obvious to me. Care to explain?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:17AM (#43398504)
"People with blue and yellow patches are the enemy. I won't be able to communicate with you after you leave the forward base, but you need to navigate about 1 mile southwest then kill the people you find with a blue and yellow patch for as long as you can."

Then the quadcopter/Atlas/Spot/a Terminator/a tank driven by AI starts rolling across the landscape, while humans flagged as suspicious by Google because we lack sufficient tracking data in our browsers fill out reCaptcha images that say "Select all images that contain [soldiers] in this set."

Nearby, a scared local child distracts themselves from the distant horrors by drawing a picture of the sun in the sky with their crayons.

Some time later, the robot is able to transmit back a few bytes of telemetry to base, which publishes a press release that describes the number of enemies slain.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by throwpoaster on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:46AM (#43398763)
This is an example of the lack of connectivity, not the horror of too much.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ahazred8ta on Thursday March 20, 2025 @08:05PM (#43430487)
Obligatory xkcd: click on all the photos that show places you would run for shelter during a robot uprising https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2228:_Machine_Lea...
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by mab122 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:29AM (#43398618)
> Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities.

This sounds like you would also be in favor of backdoored encryption. I disagree. It's a tool / improvement like any other, how you use it makes it scary. BTW this is nothing new, it's just packaged nicely and (I assume) massively improved technology. DIY and open source solutions were possible in 2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA (static ones tho)

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by cameldrv on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:25PM (#43393817)
This is something the U.S. military has been working on for some time. I know of at least one project that's very advanced: https://www.ga-asi.com/multi-mission-payloads/lac12-pod
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by nine_k on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:37PM (#43393951)
Laser light can be dispersed or bent by atmosphere and whatever is suspended in it, like smoke or drizzle. Also, it needs precise targeting.

I can assume that laser links work wonderfully in outer space.

On land or sea, I can imagine using tactical smoke generators to disrupt laser links and visual navigation, giving an advantage to to systems that use e.g. microwaves for "vision", and radio channels for communication.

Also, why are you afraid of this development?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by m463 on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:39PM (#43393966)
Wait until military people put the receiver on their chest.

Then all the military dramas will flip from "sniper acquired target" to "communication with friendlies reestablished"

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by HPsquared on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:40PM (#43393974)
Sounds like a nice way to do IFF. Optical transponder. Only responds on a valid challenge received.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by fc417fc802 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:49AM (#43395871)
> Only responds on a valid challenge received.

Perhaps I misunderstand but that sounds like a scary failure mode.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by yieldcrv on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:07PM (#43394673)
traders have done this across cities for a long time
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by eptcyka on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:10AM (#43396227)
What specifically are you worried about? Better comms will always help people, be it to flourish more in peace or more efficiently killing one another. Most inventions in the 20th century either came from the military or ended up being used by the military.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by gherkinnn on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @04:51AM (#43396990)
At the same time, fibre-optic drones have being successfully fielded by Russia and now increasingly by Ukraine. Immune to jamming with a minimum range of 10km.

There is no way these technologies won't be at least trialled for mil use, not when electronic warfare is employed to this degree.

https://thedefensepost.com/2025/01/08/ukraine-fiber-optic-dr...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by looofooo0 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @04:59AM (#43397053)
There is also some very recent advances to laser communication, which explains the increased interest: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41377-023-01201-7
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bozhark on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @04:54AM (#43397008)
Line of sight is not immune to jamming, in fact it’s susceptible to more.

Physically.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pyinstallwoes on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:17AM (#43397196)
Given any tech, assume the military already has it. In fact, assume any tech that is public is approved by military for public use.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by baq on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:50AM (#43397428)
Why afraid? It's obvious it'll be used, nothing to be afraid, more like expect it to. Mount a base station on an AWACS and you've got the whole theatre covered. Clouds are an issue, obviously.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by mtud on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:10AM (#43399013)
The U.S. Naval Research Lab (NRL) has been deploying this tech - free space optics (FSO) - for about a decade.

https://www.doncio.navy.mil/chips/ArticleDetails.aspx?ID=555...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by tootie on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:25AM (#43399191)
Hasn't this been possible with microwaves for a long time? I remember site-to-site microwave Internet between tall buildings being used commercially in the 1990s
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by FuriouslyAdrift on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:40PM (#43401477)
Militaries have been using point to point laser or microwave for things for decades. They've also used coiled fiber optics (and still do) for missles, etc.

It's really easy to blast an area with high power disruptive radiation (EFI, RFI, laser, etc.) to deny comms, though.