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Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by krisoft on Monday March 17, 2025 @07:13PM (#43393723)
> Line of sight free space optics can be immune to many many forms of jamming.

I’m a bit of two minds about this. Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities.

But the lack of it is what drives and will drive militaries around the world to put more and more autonomy into weapons. It doesn’t matter what kind of treaties we write on paper to prohibit technologies. During a war if your drones/loitering munition are less effective than those of your enemies because your control signals are jammed you will give in and make your weapons find their target without that control signal. That leads to an arm race of ever more sophisticated autonomous weapons. That is scarry for many reasons, and probably a worse outcome for all of us.

On the other hand if communication is possible that puts a leash on this dynamic and ensurers that a human mind can remain in the loop. So… maybe being better at jamming resistant communication is actually better for humankind?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Monday March 17, 2025 @09:41PM (#43394906)
I got seriously terrified by reading a PKD SF story at 15 about the few surviving humans hiding from war drones still hunting people long after the war had ended.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by stevenwoo on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:18PM (#43395094)
Second Variety, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety I've commented this before but it is closer to Terminator than the Harlan Ellison story IMO.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @11:23AM (#43400542)
Yeah, that was the one. Really burned itself into my mind.

The movie was OK, but you can only get shocked once.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by stevenwoo on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:49PM (#43402405)
Similar but reverse, I felt unfortunate to have read the novelette after watching Terminator because part way in the story I thought - this is almost all of the AI/self replicating autonomous robot points of the Terminator movie just without the time travel. The movie addition of time travel adds a bit of hope to an otherwise totally bleak story resolution.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by rstuart4133 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:26PM (#43407713)
Haven't read the book, but I did see "Screamers". Wikipedia says: "Future Imperfect: Philip K. Dick at the Movies, writes that the film is more faithful than most other adaptations".

I can't comment on whether that's true, but the movie still haunts me. Odd, since as Wikipedia says "it received a mixed critical reception and failed at the box office". There was nothing mixed about my reception of it.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by BurningFrog on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:40PM (#43405484)
It's pretty wild that PKD imagined AI controlled combat drones in 1953, and 70 years we'll soon have them.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by falcor84 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @01:12AM (#43395992)
I haven't read that one, but it reminds me of Black Mirror's "Metalhead", which absolutely terrified me.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by yownie on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @02:35AM (#43396352)
The movie Screamers (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114367/) is based off it, decent sci-fi.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @05:00PM (#43405050)
draws from the same well, intellectually. terrifying stuff, that BM episode is, too.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by femto on Monday March 17, 2025 @10:39PM (#43395219)
> On the other hand if communication is possible that puts a leash on this dynamic

I'm a bit more pessimistic than that. I think the driver for autonomy will be that the speed at which things happen on the battlefield. People being attacked with automated weapons might not be able to make response related decisions fast enough. The automation will be in place to enable a rapid response. It will become an arms race involving speed of attack and response. It will be the military equivalent of high-frequency trading, involving things like swarms and directed energy weapons.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ethbr1 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:13AM (#43395687)
The phrase you're looking for is OODA loop, popularized in the 80s.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategi...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dataviz1000 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @03:04AM (#43396472)
> Boyd’s Law of Iteration: speed of iteration beats quality of iteration [0]

[0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/boyds-law-of-iteration/

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ethbr1 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @10:34AM (#43399944)
Also, Patton's classic 'a good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week'
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by genewitch on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:54AM (#43398860)
I personally won't worry until microwave ovens are regulated. I'm still sore that I didn't publish a decade ago.

c.f. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6XdcWToy2c

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by thfuran on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:21AM (#43399137)
What?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by proaralyst on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @06:41AM (#43397817)
Ukraine's drones are already partly automated because of the jamming environment: they can visually lock the drone onto a target from up to 10km away.[0][1] They're also using drones that trail a fibre optic over several kilometres to avoid jamming.[2]

[0] https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2025/03/12/... [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/ukraines-future-vision-and-cur... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/11/07/ukrain...

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:50AM (#43398803)
Dang what does a drone carriable several kilometer fiber spool look like?
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by pjc50 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:29AM (#43399225)
The lower canister in the last of the three links, https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/11/07/ukrain...

Difficult to judge scale, maybe the size of a drinks can or food can? Fiber is pretty thin.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by bprater on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:50AM (#43399394)
Half a can of soda. The main electronics controller visible in the photo is likely 20x20 or 30x30mm, the standard for FPV style drones.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by j245 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:23AM (#43399171)
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by temp0826 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:41AM (#43399311)
I was pretty shocked to find out that wire-guided missiles were(/are?) a thing. This seems easier than that.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:50AM (#43399389)
Pretty sure they were in the thousand feet range, not multiple kilometers…
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by dwighttk on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @09:52AM (#43399410)
(Welp… 3 km range… though to me wire that long seems like it’d be easier than optical cable back in the 70s)
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by mrguyorama on Wednesday March 19, 2025 @01:51PM (#43415216)
Wire guided is still the primary means of guiding torpedos from submarines, because it gives you an unjammable, un-interceptible, consistent communication interface, and in torpedoes the wire spools out for tens of kilometers.

If you want something really cool, look up old fashioned TV guidance. We built weapons that guided based a TV signal, and edge detection in that signal. In 1958.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by red-iron-pine on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @04:59PM (#43405033)
basically like a cheapo SACLOS missle, i.e. the TOW missile, which have been using that (fiber) approach for decades now.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by lupusreal on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @12:29PM (#43401337)
> already partly automated because of the jamming environment: they can visually lock the drone onto a target from up to 10km away

This capability is basically a reinvention of the walleye television bomb, which locked onto targets using edge detection on a signal from an internal television camera. 1960s technology.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by j-krieger on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @06:49AM (#43397855)
> Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities

They are not obvious to me. Care to explain?

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:17AM (#43398504)
"People with blue and yellow patches are the enemy. I won't be able to communicate with you after you leave the forward base, but you need to navigate about 1 mile southwest then kill the people you find with a blue and yellow patch for as long as you can."

Then the quadcopter/Atlas/Spot/a Terminator/a tank driven by AI starts rolling across the landscape, while humans flagged as suspicious by Google because we lack sufficient tracking data in our browsers fill out reCaptcha images that say "Select all images that contain [soldiers] in this set."

Nearby, a scared local child distracts themselves from the distant horrors by drawing a picture of the sun in the sky with their crayons.

Some time later, the robot is able to transmit back a few bytes of telemetry to base, which publishes a press release that describes the number of enemies slain.

Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by throwpoaster on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:46AM (#43398763)
This is an example of the lack of connectivity, not the horror of too much.
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by ahazred8ta on Thursday March 20, 2025 @08:05PM (#43430487)
Obligatory xkcd: click on all the photos that show places you would run for shelter during a robot uprising https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2228:_Machine_Lea...
Re:Alphabet spins out Taara – Internet over lasers by mab122 on Tuesday March 18, 2025 @08:29AM (#43398618)
> Obviously jamming resistant high bandwidth communication enables some scarry possibilities.

This sounds like you would also be in favor of backdoored encryption. I disagree. It's a tool / improvement like any other, how you use it makes it scary. BTW this is nothing new, it's just packaged nicely and (I assume) massively improved technology. DIY and open source solutions were possible in 2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA (static ones tho)