News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:15AM (#32148438)
Of course not. Every government is going to look out for themselves. Following your reasoning, look at China. They have their own playbook for operating within China, and it is quite restrictive. They make it harder for foreign entities to do business within China.

From a geopolitical viewpoint this makes complete sense. You don't want your rival to have a backdoor into influencing/manipulating/discovering how people in your nation are behaving, especially when you consider how much data about sensitive information might be getting onto tiktok, like videos made by military service members on bases, videos showing gaps/issues/etc in infrastructure, or at ports and other locations.

As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by blacklion on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:49AM (#32149428)
> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player

Are you sure? Several months ago I've woke up to learn, that my country start to kill civilians of other country with bombs, missiles and shelling, to become "top player". And, what is even worse, many of my fellow citizens support it.

Now I'm trying to leave this country for some other, which don't have ambitions to be top-player but don't kill civilians and don't attack malls and hospitals.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by scrollaway on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:06AM (#32149531)
Good luck from Belgium. Reach out if you need help; I’ve assisted in the expatriation of people like you and wish to keep doing so.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by go_elmo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:38AM (#32149725)
Youll enjoy europe then, scandinavia among others is surely on top of the us in every term apart from business revenue and the army.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:44AM (#32151315)
And opportunities, and size of homes, and cost of living
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by go_elmo on Friday July 22, 2022 @05:02PM (#32197073)
Opportunities to get shot, cross drug addicts, not be able to abort, lose your home because of health care costs
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:40AM (#32150162)
Всё будет хорошо скоро - мир меняется быстро, и есть возможность работать в любом месте ты хочешь.

Счастливо тебе, и если тебе надо помочь, послай мне dm, не знаю что могу делать, но могу стараться помогать.

Прости за мой плохой русский, меня научали мальчики когда я жил в Украине на обмене в средней школе.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by 4ggr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:53AM (#32150255)
If others wonder what this text says -

All will be well soon - the world is changing fast, and there are opportunities to work anywhere you want.

So long, and if you need help, send me a dm, I don't know what I can do, but I can try to help.

Sorry about my bad Russian, I was taught by the boys when I lived in Ukraine on a high school exchange.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:59AM (#32150306)
Sorry if other languages aren’t permissible. I can delete it if I need to.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by 4ggr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:20AM (#32150463)
I personally don't care and the rules don't forbid it. I wondered what you wrote, translated it online and thought I'd post it here to save others a few clicks :)

Avec la technologie actuelle, nous devrions pouvoir parler dans la langue de notre choix sans problème.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by formerkrogemp on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:16AM (#32152730)
> Avec la technologie actuelle, nous devrions pouvoir parler dans la langue de notre choix sans problème.

Well said.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by honkdaddy on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:12AM (#32150396)
I don't think it's against the rules at all; we had a thread a couple weeks ago which ended up being mostly in German. We native speakers enjoy the privilege of reading English nearly every where we go online, it should be no skin off our back to pop open Google Translate every once in a while.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by dang on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:31PM (#32158847)
An occasional comment in another language is fine but HN is an English-language site, so people shouldn't be having entire conversations in other languages.

I wrote a bit about this the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32131878

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by knighthack on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:44AM (#32167406)
As a speaker of multiple languages, I disagree. There's no possibility of HN turning into a non-English language site just because a few threads are not in English; HN will always be first and foremost an English language site (and it's too long set in English for it to be anything but), and it's actually quite nice to be reminded of the existence of other conversations by other language speakers rather than only English. I and many others may not be able to participate so directly in them, but there's always Google Translate.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Saturday July 23, 2022 @05:48AM (#32201843)
Hi, Norwegian here, so English is my second language. Sorry no. If there are other-language comments, I just skip them. The reason is UX and time. If you're too lazy to run your other-language comment through Google Trans or similar, then you'll just end up having fewer readers. Meanwhile you just end up annoying those who want to fluently read the discussions without having to stop and run things through a translator every other post. This makes other-language posts bad for HN's business. I mean consider if I just switched to my own language for no reason at all. Haha, da må du kjøre greia gjennom Google Trans eller lignende, og fordi jeg skriver dialekt så er det likevel ikke sikkert at alt blir oversatt riktig lol. Actually the translation for that last sentence came out surprisingly well, but it's not like you'd know anyway.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by narag on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:23AM (#32151916)
I'm not a native speaker, but I understand English better than German or Russian. Sometimes it makes sense to write something in other languages, sometimes it doesn't. It should be a matter of common sense and politeness more than about the rules.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by subpixel on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:06AM (#32150895)
Link? I want to test my rusty German comprehension
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by stevenjgarner on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:24AM (#32151083)
72 101 108 108 111 32 119 111 114 108 100
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by belter on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:25AM (#32152874)
Above means "Hello world"....
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by stevenjgarner on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:21PM (#32153975)
I remember going to a computer club talk by Woz where a significant portion (certainly the important parts) of the conversation were all in 6502 assembler. I was so lost, and at the same time inspired.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hiidrew on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:26AM (#32151975)
Love this framing
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by nindalf on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:52AM (#32150244)
Interestingly, HN guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) say nothing about a comment needing to be in English.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by lancesells on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:49AM (#32152319)
For that I am glad. Let the community determine the languages being spoken.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:47AM (#32150212)
> Now I'm trying to leave this country for some other, which don't have ambitions to be top-player but don't kill civilians and don't attack malls and hospitals.

Good luck man, there aren't many such countries. I live in slovenia, we're like tiny, point a finger at putin and meanwhile have soldiers in syria.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throw0101a on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:16AM (#32149984)
>> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player

> Are you sure?

Would you rather have someone else / some other country (other than the US) be the hegemon? If so, who? And are they willing to do it?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:41AM (#32150174)
Perhaps it would be better if nobody was the hegemon eh?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ericmay on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:46AM (#32150695)
Loosely speaking, probably not right now. A lot of countries avoid war because they are worried about the potential response from the United States. With an isolationist-focused US that isn't the dominant military power (in order for the US to not be the dominant power it'll have to undertake more isolationist tendencies like reducing military spending) there's nothing to fear from invading your neighbor.

But this is just an examination of practical reality. Ideally we wouldn't have a hegemon. Ideally maybe we wouldn't have countries either.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:53AM (#32151447)
Is that possible?

The wildly different allocation of resources and population (on a country border basis) suggests some country will always have the means to be hegemonic (especially if other contenders all decide not to be).

Which in practice means there will always be a hegemony.

If the US ceded its role tomorrow, China would step into it. If China ceded it the day after, Russia or the EU would step into it. (I'm skipping over India and Japan, as both seem to have cultural aversions to strongly projecting power overseas)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:30AM (#32151143)
multipolar worlds have not worked well in the past.

As an American, I would love for the EU to get more unified and take the reins, but in the mean time, a US hegemon is required for global stability

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:59AM (#32151538)
>"US hegemon is required for global stability"

This is laughable. The US initiated way too many wars and other offensive / disruptive actions. If you call this stability then I have a bridge to sell. The only stability it provides is it's own. Well maybe some to the allies.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:18AM (#32151839)
The US Navy ensures that global shipping routes stay open and safe, the US economy provides the globe with advanced technological research and products, and the US's natural resources allow for it to export tons of commodities including food and energy.

During pax americana, we've seen massive increases in quality of life around the world. Do you think the world is going to be more stable as the US retreats and other players fill the power vacuum and we have to deal with the rising threat of climate change?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:17AM (#32152738)
I think the world will be more stable when there are few major players around with not a single one having complete control / dominance. This will insure competition and cooperation between our "masters" and will keep them on their toes.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throw0101a on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:38PM (#32154269)
> I think the world will be more stable when there are few major players around with not a single one having complete control / dominance.

Until one thinks they can get an edge over another one by jumping them:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_wars

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_history_by_c...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_history_by_p...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:41PM (#32154351)
Major players going to war with each other means mutually assured destruction. I do not think they will.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:13PM (#32154863)
Yes but proxy wars are going to be brutal.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:49PM (#32155395)
I do not want to argue too much here. Here is my point of view - I believe that a single country controlling the world will end up with dictatorship on a world scale. It will not prevent wars either. If instead we have few majors they might actually get to their senses and establish some workable order.

You have your own take on a subject and we do not have to agree

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _-david-_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:18PM (#32153935)
When there are multiple major players conflicts between them often occur.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:44PM (#32154394)
I appreciate your desire for the world to be ruled by the US. I do not think the rest of the world will agree. And if you enforce it using military means you are no better then the rest. Are you American by any chance?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _-david-_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:05PM (#32154758)
I think if the choice is China or America, the majority of the world would choose America. America is less hostile to other countries than China.

Do you think the world would rather have China in charge?

I assume you are going to claim that we can either have no major power or that the EU could be that major power. I highly doubt either of those could occur.

I believe some wars can be just and as such enforcing things through the military can be just. The idea that military use has to be bad is ridiculous.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:11PM (#32154827)
Replying here since reply to your last post is not available.

>"Do you think the world would rather have China in charge?"

I prefer the world "ruled" by few major entities / blocks. No need to be either US or China alone.

>"I believe some wars can be just and as such enforcing things through the military can be just."

Like bombing the country that refuses to trade in certain currency?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _-david-_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:17PM (#32156583)
>Replying here since reply to your last post is not available.

Typically when that happens I have to click the time posted on a post and then I have the option to reply. Not sure what causes that.

>I prefer the world "ruled" by few major entities / blocks. No need to be either US or China alone.

I don't think that is possible.

Do you have any historical examples where this has happened? Please don't bring up a time when there were multiple major powers but they were so far away they couldn't reach the other, assuming they even knew the other existed.

If you do not have any examples of this occurring, why do you think it would work in the present?

>Like bombing the country that refuses to trade in certain currency?

I am not suggesting that the US has only done good and just things. Only that the US is better than China.

China is currently taking over Hong Kong (despite having a 50 year agreement for autonomy starting in 1997), attempting to take land from India, trying to dam a river that provides water to India, is consistently threatening Taiwan, etc. China does the same crap. And all of that is within the last few years. If you want to go back further we can.

I would also note several of the US invasions were not in fact US invasion but NATO invasions. This likely means one of those blocks of country you support to be a world power were involved with these invasions.

Let's talk about internal affairs. China has a terrible record and potentially holds the record for causing the most deaths of its own citizens. Obviously they don't care about the people. What about freedom? Do Chinese citizens have more freedom than US citizens? Why would China treat people who are not its own citizens better than the citizens?

The US is better for the world and the people under its control than China.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:08PM (#32159638)
>"The US is better for the world and the people under its control than China"

Once again you are pushing a choice that should not be there in a first place. I do not want to choose between either. Period. If you let any country run free and control the others it will devolve to a dictator. So I prefer to have the US, Europe, China, BRICS and whatever else is coming.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _-david-_ on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:03PM (#32167727)
I will ask you again:

Do you have any historical examples where this has happened? Please don't bring up a time when there were multiple major powers but they were so far away they couldn't reach the other, assuming they even knew the other existed.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Thursday July 21, 2022 @10:52AM (#32180092)
Unless one's blind it is happening right now
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _-david-_ on Thursday July 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#32181649)
I believe it is temporary. China is massively build up their military and are consistently threatening their neighbors. I believe it is just a matter of time until war occurs.

Also, you are advocating for more than 2 blocks. As far as I can tell there are only two super powers right now.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:53PM (#32183288)
>"I believe it is temporary."

You can believe whatever you want. We have totally different point of view on subject and do not have to agree.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by wholien on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:03PM (#32153664)
a multipolar world means more instability and wars, though. When you say it will "insure competition", that means conflict for sure.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:57PM (#32183341)
Conflict does not have to be military. I do not think the US looking forward to attack Russia or China for example.

Non military conflicts could be better than being poodle under the threat of war which will happen if the world is ran by a single country

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:41AM (#32150168)
No top player.

And many top players.

MAD, as insane as it may sound, actually works. Everyone being fearful of massive retaliatory strikes keeps everyone in line. You get all sorts of bad behavior when nations have no fear of massive retaliatory strikes.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:50AM (#32150228)
The world map has been mostly frozen the last few decades precisely because USA is the global hegemon and world police.

Regional powers (which is what we would devolve to) are demonstrating exactly what the world would look like without America running the show: conquest and genocide in Ukraine, saber rattling in the south china sea, genocide of the Kurds.

We don't have an interest in solving for all the world's ills, and we are the source of many.

But the world has been less stable and more dangerous in the past.

What you are espousing is a luxury belief.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:42AM (#32151292)
If you think the world is stable as a result of the US, you should think again. It is exactly the contrary. The US itself is involved in wars since basically its foundation. The reason you say this is because you probably live in the US or one of its rich close alies. Everyone else will tell you that life under US hegemony means constant wars, coups, and political instability.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:56AM (#32151498)
Could you give some examples? The US has certainly abused its power (notoriously, in the 60s and 70s at the height of the Cold War), but "constant" appears to be stretching historical fact to fit a narrative.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:13AM (#32151746)
Are you forgetting that the US has been actively involved in non-stop wars around the world for the last 20 years? And before these wars started, it was doing "special operations" in eastern Europe, parts of Asia and Africa? And in Latin America it never really stoped its coups, military dictatorships and the such, especially in central America. And then of course there was the "cold" war and all the crimes in South Asia...
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by snovv_crash on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:51AM (#32152350)
Look at the hundred years before that. Everyone was fighting, all the time, not just one country with roughly one skirmish (by historical standards) at any single point.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:39PM (#32154289)
You are all missing the point.

War is a constant.

It was in the past.

It is a constant today.

And it will be in the future.

All nations are, at heart, "evil" in this regard. Essentially, nations are just scaled up street gangs with more destructive weapons.

The only proven method of keeping these street gangs from getting too far out of hand, of keeping all our war at the level of low intensity conflict, is MAD. Nations behave only at the barrel of a gun. To argue that America is "evil" is as irrelevant as it is to argue that America is "good".

For instance, I know that all nations can be said to be "evil" at root, and "good" at root. Here's the thing though, do you think it matters to me if China is "evil" and "good"? Of course not, they're just a different street gang. The US has a responsibility to humanity to keep them in line. Should it matter to China that the US street gang is "evil" and "good"? No. They have a responsibility to humanity to keep the US in line.

In the age of weapons of mass destruction, only mutually assured destruction has ensured these street gangs don't come into conflict. Relying on sunshine and rainbows and unicorns that crap out skittles is nonsense. This is not a children's game of "good guys-bad guys". There are no good guys or bad guys. Only nations, (street gangs), pursuing interests. They are kept in line only at the barrel of a gun. Take that gun away and they will run rampant.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#32154873)
I mostly agree with you, except I don't believe that MAD is a sufficient deterrent, or that low level conflict is unlikely to evolve into large scale war.

The best way, in my mind to minimize conflict is through a global monopoly on violence, one street gang to rule them all

This is what the last 30 years have been

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:56PM (#32155501)
This is what the last 30 years have been

Only they haven't.

The reason the US and Russia haven't run rampant the last 30 years is because the US and Russia can blow each other away. So Russia satisfies itself with Georgia and now Ukraine. And the US satisfies itself with those nations in the MidEast region. Remove Russia, and the US would have been all over the yard. Remove the US, and Russia would have been all over the yard.

And now with the rise of China, mankind is even safer. Not only that, but more of mankind have begun to enjoy the benefits of safety. The US and Russia were perfectly willing to fight a proxy war in Korea 70 years ago. They wouldn't dare do that today. Why? The Chinese presence in any MAD calculations.

Today Africa is much safer, it is developing much faster. A large part of the reason for that is the presence of China. Now instead of proxy wars, the great powers compete to see who can deliver Africa the most undersea bandwidth for instance. This is a much better situation for Africans than the situation that existed when only the US and Russia were superpowers. And this situation exists because of MAD. It proves that an armed society is a polite society.

The US, China and Russia are all fulfilling their responsibility to keep the peace by maintaining lethal arsenals of weapons of mass destruction so that they are each confident in their own ability to destroy the others. And that is good for all of us "little people" in the world. Whether we are American, Chinese or Russian. (And even good for us if we are Korean, African, or from South America.)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:23PM (#32158173)
I agree. The result of N. Korea acquiring nuclear weapons was the cessation of the idea of direct war against the Korean regime. I believe if Iran already had nukes we wouldn't be talking about the possibility of war there, either.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:10PM (#32160058)
The difficult calculus with Iran is trying to decide if they're actually pious enough to immolate themselves to take out Israel. Or whether a group could come to power who might be.

North Korea is insane in its own way, but hereditary personality cults do have a history of acting in the interest of self-preservation.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @02:01PM (#32155576)
Russia specifically developed their "de-escalation" policy of tactical nuclear weapons use under MAD assumptions.

Basically, betting that there were scenarios where the US wouldn't risk escalation to nuclear war in response to a calibrated Russian tactical nuclear strike in a third party country, thus allowing Russian nuclear effects to nullify superior western precision weapons without consequence.

https://thebulletin.org/2022/03/russian-military-doctrine-ca...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:20PM (#32158142)
> superior western precision weapons

At this point there is no support for the idea that US weapons have superior precision. The Russian campaign is showing the opposite.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _kbh_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:41PM (#32161132)
Russian MLRS’s certainly fire rockets that have a much lower precision then modern US systems (HIMARS/M270).

Here’s a good video showing the difference.

https://mobile.twitter.com/revishvilig/status/15402647613292...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:56PM (#32159965)
O_o

A) NATO's air campaign in the Kosovo War (1999) certainly scared the shit out of Russia.

B) That Russia is currently bombarding Ukrainian cities with repurposed surface to air missiles doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in their ability to produce sufficient quantities of precision missiles for even a moderate scale conflict.

C) The majority of Ukrainian platforms at this point still aren't Western, and thus incapable of firing NATO precision ordinance.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throw0101a on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:40PM (#32154313)
> If you think the world is stable as a result of the US, you should think again.

"Stable" in some kind of Platonic absolute sense, or "more stable that things would have otherwise been"?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by tuxie_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:13AM (#32150404)
It's sad but not surprising that you think that the US did not promote, finance, or execute dictatorships and all kinds of destabilizing tactics against democratically elected governments for the sole reason of not agreeing with their policies. They even sent agents to my country to teach the military how to torture civilians.

The only difference is that they were careful to not do it directly, or do it in secret. Exactly the same way they are doing in Ukraine now, where they avoid giving the weapons directly to Ukraine, but instead they use the well exercised muscle of influence.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by zaphar on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:55AM (#32150785)
Ukraine is a terrible example. Russia started that, not Ukraine or the US. Giving weapons and funding it would have been completely absent without Russian aggression.

Promoting a better way for countries to adopt, partnering with them in economic activity and education, and helping them to defend themselves when neighbors try to use aggression to oppose that partnership is a much better mechanism for bettering the world than outright war and conquering other nations.

Does the US do shady stuff that bites them later? Yes. Is the world overall better with the US as one of the biggest out there for now? Also yes. Both things can be true.

By all means shine a light on, and oppose the shady stuff but don't make the mistake of thinking that the world doesn't need a strong entity who can both promote and also defend better ways to govern.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:18AM (#32151020)
Yeah, we do a bunch of fucked up shit, like fueling the civil war in Yemen, the banana wars, and much, much more.

We're less extractive than the alternative, and the US having an effective monopoly on violence has been a stabilizing force.

Europeans really don't deserve a voice in this whole conversation given that they rely entirely on the US for protection. Germany's decision to build Nord Stream 2 demonstrates how detached they are from realpolitik.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mbg721 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:23AM (#32150483)
There are plenty of regional powers that aren't particularly violent or unstable; the traditional concern--regardless of whether it's true--isn't that the US itself would devolve into chaos, it's that by suddenly ceasing to be able to project force in other countries, it would leave power vacuums.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:19AM (#32150454)
>what the world would look like without America running the show: conquest and genocide in Ukraine, saber rattling in the south china sea, genocide of the Kurds.

Meanwhile with America running the show: entire regions - South America and Middle East - largely destroyed, with tens of millions of victims.

America isn’t the “world police”, they are just the main bully.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:53AM (#32151441)
How did the US destroy South America? And please don’t talk about military dictatorship that happened decades ago .-.

Middle East has also been invaded by Europe and Russia

China has been running concentration camps on middle eastern (for now the ones within their borders)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by the_only_law on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:54AM (#32151461)
Ah yes, if it happened in the past it had no relvance today.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:04AM (#32151599)
The strongest argument for the US destroying South America, aside from the obvious propping up of strong men, is probably training and supporting right-wing militias to combat communism.

The effect of their existence as a power base then cascading into politics, etc.

That said, most of South America's recent woes have generally been economic (Guatamala, Venezuela), and the rise of Chavez (and the US not directly acting against his movement for decades) undercuts the "US is responsible for what happens in South America" position.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by tehsauce on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:43AM (#32149753)
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Best of luck
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by brimstedt on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:02AM (#32150324)
Easy to say, I know, but people like you should not leave.

You should stay and make a change.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by SXX on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:36AM (#32151206)
How is he suppose to make a change? Go to prison? Is your country actively provide asylum for non-celebrities Russian political immigrants and their families?

When Putin captured all the power in the country, rigged the elections, killed journalists no one cared at all. US, EU, UK, etc - no reaction at all. War with Georgia - no reaction.

When Russia actually started this war 8 years ago and annexed Crimea there been really weak reaction and after everyone just did business as usual. EU even sold Kremlin equipment to fight protesters as well as military weapons on condition they will only be used "inside the country".

When Russian opposition leader Navalny was poisoned again no real sanctions were introduced. Now US, EU and UK expect people to go on streets and protest.

PS: I am from Russia and I immigrated to Turkey on 25th of February and there is nothing fun about going into unplanned political immigration. I dont try to remove all responsibility from myself or someone else, but even I as software engineer have very limited capacity to do political activity. Since I have a job and my family to feed.

Now from abroad I help my friends from Ukraine when I can and I publicly share my political statementa that will land me to prison if I ever come back. But sorry I'm not going to destroy my life for the cause.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by negus on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:06AM (#32150350)
Can you propose some specific actions?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by formerly_proven on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:31AM (#32150562)
> When the war began, the population of Russia had become divided between those who supported this war, those who did not even care, and those who opposed to the war. I'll speak about first two categories later, so now's about the last one (so-called sensible people).

> When the war began, some sensible Russian people had stated that they were ashamed to be a Russians. Others had stated that they were not responsible for Putin's actions, because he was always a usurper and they were always against him. I think the both sides are wrong. On the one side, it is foolish to be ashamed of your nationality, just as to be proud of it, because the origin of a person does not depend on his will. Only your actions can be a sources of your pride or shame. On the other side, unlike the legal responsibility that may be personal only, moral responsibility may be both personal and collective. Personal responsibility is a responsibility for own acts that constitute the objective aspect of a crime. Collective responsibility is incurred when a persons have not done all measures within their power to avoid the situation in which the crime is committed on behalf of society of which these persons are a part.

> Just some examples. Anna Politkovskaya and Boris Nemtsov are not responsible for this war, because they resisted Putin's regime, fought for Russian civil society, and, as a result, gave their lives. Alexei Navalny is alive but he survived an assassination attempt, was imprisoned and is still fighting Putin's regime, so he is not responsible for this war. Yuri Nesterenko is not responsible for this war too, because he distanced himself from Russian society in advance, stating in 2010 that Russia was always absolute and pure evil growing out of mentality of Russians, and he had for ever left Russia and was granted asylum in USA.

> Quite simply, if you want to avoid the collective responsibility you should stake your life on the line fighting for your society and become a hero or sever all ties with your society in advance and become an outcast.

> As for me personally, I have not severed all ties with Russian society and I'm alive and even not jailed. Therefore, I share collective responsibility for all what is going on now.

> My beliefs have evolved, and there are some things seemed right earlier but not seem right now. I was constant in one thing – in categorical opposition to Putin's regime. I always believed that the expression of discontent is not enough, because words don't change the world. I carried out actions using all tools available to me. I was a lawyer (even good, in opinion of some people) and tried to uphold the law, rights and freedoms, not just as a representative of a party to the proceedings – for money, but also on my own behalf – for an idea. Fight for an idea has brought nothing but problems; however, I knew what I was about. I wasn't naive man, I saw dictatorship, a priori incompatible with justice, was being established in Russia, but at that time I felt obliged to use all available legal arrangements. However, in 2020, after the amendments to the Russian Constitution was approved, I realized that I finally had enough. The country where the law was replaced by schizophrenic delusion of psychotic führer, really doesn't need lawyers, and, under these circumstances, I considered it shameful to continue to pretend that well-written legal document has any meaning. I saw that elections, mass protests, petitions, legal proceedings didn't work. I saw that attempts to change the situation through a violence against government structures (see this) did not work too, because it didn't resonate with society. I don't know what I should do now to change the situation. Anyway I realize that all things what I did earlier were inefficient - I haven't prevented the transformation my country into fascist dictatorship. And so, again, I share collective responsibility for all what is going on now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:K8M8S8

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:54AM (#32151468)
>"Collective responsibility is incurred when a persons have not done all measures within their power to avoid the situation in which the crime is committed on behalf of society of which these persons are a part."

Cut the crap. We are all part of a single society - people of the earth. Follow your logic we should be doing nothing else but trying to stop the world acting the way it does. The atrocities are everywhere. I would not be able to sleep and function at all if I've felt that "collective" responsibility. This is not how humans work.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by blitz_skull on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:09AM (#32149942)
This comment seems in bad faith. I think it’s pretty clear this conversation wasn’t about killing civilians so the comment about “whatever necessary” probably wasn’t intended to include violations of the Geneva convention. Just saying.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bigDinosaur on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:43AM (#32150181)
'Whatever it needs' is fairly unambiguous language and including violence in that is not a particularly unpopular viewpoint in recent history.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by blitz_skull on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:57AM (#32150290)
“Whatever” is by definition ambiguous. It might include violence, sure, but when the comment specifically mentioned data and the actual content at hand several times, it can be pretty safely concluded that it doesn’t include violence.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Kaze404 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:26AM (#32150515)
I think it’s pretty safe to say that “whatever it needs” at the very least includes things the country is already doing, and violence is definitely in that list. Both internally and externally.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by virgildotcodes on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:13AM (#32150399)
I mean, we have a number of examples of governments using this data to do anything from harassing to imprisoning or even assassinating dissidents. So even saying "just" access to data is what you're defending doesn't really address the fact that data is often used for oppressive and violent ends.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by stevenjgarner on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:35AM (#32151198)
Personally I find it rewarding how the accuracy of language matters here on HN. Initially when someone voted down one of my comments I was all butt-hurt. Then I got to realizing how justified the down-vote was as I was being lazy with my use of language - I was not actually saying what I really meant. Slowly it helped me think first then write what I actually meant. Still not perfect, but so much more intentional. After all, many of us here on HN are coders of one sort or another, where the accuracy of (computer) language is all too important. It should matter no less how accurately we talk with one another?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:12AM (#32149966)
It’s not clear considering that the US has been engaging in various military conflicts of dubious legitimacy to keep its status for many years.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ncphil on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:24PM (#32155021)
At least they "think" that they're maintaining their status. Check back at mid-century when things _really_ start to fall apart and see where the US and those who control it are.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by olalonde on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:37AM (#32148974)
First, this ignores that the USA benefits tremendously from trading with other countries, most of all with China. If this mindset was applied universally, the USA (and the world) would be worse off. It also ignores that treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it.

Second, it's not necessarily in one's best interest to live in a "top dog" country. There are plenty of happy and prosperous people living outside the USA. The USA ranks 26th for median wealth. To give another example, even if China took the top dog spot, the average US citizen would still be better off than the average Chinese citizen.

Thirdly, I don't think the US remaining top dog is a realistic objective in the long term. In my opinion, it would be smarter to lead by example knowing that your successor will be judged by the standard you set.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:05AM (#32149169)
> The USA ranks 26th for median wealth

Wealth is also a function of age - older people tend to have more - and that ranking is not normalized by such extraneous factors.

The US is number 2 by median income, and number 1 for median disposable income, both of which are pretty important, especially to younger people that want cash flow to enjoy life.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by dgb23 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:05AM (#32149911)
Number 1 for disposable income sounds off. Are daycare, tuitions, healthcare, public transport, rent/mortgages etc. factored in?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:32AM (#32151163)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

not sure how accurate wikipedia is here, but I've seen this claim elsewhere

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by dgb23 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:16AM (#32152708)
So there is a difference between disposable and discretionary income:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_and_discretionary_i...

Apparently what I meant above is discretionary income, which would include all fundamental bills/payments such as healthcare etc. Disposable income does not include those, it only includes income plus direct payments from the government.

What would interest me is discretionary income, which includes healthcare, mortgages etc. plus education, public transport, daycare, energy and I'm possibly forgetting some fundamental things.

"Disposable" is very much misleading here. If you have 1000$ "disposable" income but you still have to pay for or cannot afford all of the mentioned things then you are in worse shape than someone who has 500$ "disposable" income but can lean on public infrastructure and subsidies for those things. The difference can be quite massive.

The reason I'm specifically suspicious of the US here is that public infrastructure seems to be quite a bit behind and fundamental things like healthcare is substantially more expensive than in some of the most developed countries.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by quantumwannabe on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:20AM (#32152797)
The numbers on the GP's page include the value of government benefits. If you exclude the European social benefits, their median disposable income is even lower.

>The following table represents data from OECD's "median disposable income per person" metric, which includes all forms of income as well as taxes and transfers in kind from governments for benefits such as healthcare and education and is equivalised by dividing by the square root of household size. This metric, in addition to using a median rather than a mean, uses "data calculated according to the new OECD terms of reference"; compared to previous terms of reference, these "include a more detailed breakdown of current transfers received and paid by households as well as a revised definition of household income, including the value of goods produced for own consumption as an element of self-employed income." As OECD displays median disposable incomes in each country's respective currency, the values were converted here using the World Bank's PPP conversion factors, accounting for each country's cost of living in the year that the disposable median income was recorded. Unless noted otherwise, all data refers to 2019. Data are in United States dollars at current prices and current purchasing power parity for private consumption for the reference year.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:48AM (#32151372)
All these statistics suffer from the inequality in the US. I guess that if you take total disposable income the number 1 is correct. But if you go look at the reality, it is a minority that controls that total disposable income, while most of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and increasingly don't have money even to buy food.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:11AM (#32151721)
That's why I cited median values - so your complaint does not apply, since by mathematical fact a tiny minority cannot change the median appreciably.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:10PM (#32153807)
People don't seem to understand that median is not a measure that is much better than mean, especially in the case of high inequality. For example, if I take all the money from the 40% poorer population and distribute it to the 40% richer population, the median is still the same. If you don't believe, just compute the mean and median of these two sequences:

[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]

[0,0,0,0,5,6,11,11,11,11]

Another example that I know fully well is Brazil: the mean is 8,560 BRL and the median is 8,220 BRL for monthly salaries, that is, very close. But these monthly salaries are known to vary widely from 2,170 BRL (USD 417) to 38,200 BRL (USD 7349), so hardly anyone is really making 8220 or close to that.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:46PM (#32155343)
>People don't seem to understand that median is not a measure that is much better than mean, especially in the case of high inequality.

Yes, they do. I am a PhD mathematician with decades of work using these tools. I am quite clear on the meanings and shortcoming of all sorts of indicators. I am also aware how real world data trends instead of cooked up examples that don't match reality.

Median is a common value used by economists precisely because it more likely shows what a person makes as opposed to the mean, especially in cases of high inequality.

> If you don't believe

Yes, you can make up all sorts of nonsense. Not a single country follows the distributions you made up.

>Another example that I know fully well is Brazil:

You conclusion does not at all follow from your claim. Or from the actual data.

> so hardly anyone is really making [the median] or close to that

Well, by definition, over half of people make the median or more. Is that hardly anyone?

If you look at the data [1] (income by decile in Brazil), besides the 50% making median income or higher, another 30% of the people make within 30% of median. That leaves 20% of the people making under 70% of the median income.

What is your definition of "hardly anyone"?

Look at the data. Clearly median is much more accurate than mean for explaining how much people make, as this example showed.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1251075/average-monthly-...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @02:51PM (#32156210)
The two examples show exactly the problem of the median: it is not that different from the mean in many situation when we talk about salaries and incomes. Now, if you start using the percentiles as you're doing here, then you are looking deeper into the data and your results get more accurate and reflective of reality, which just proves my point.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:12PM (#32157295)
>The two examples show exactly the problem of the median: it is not that different from the mean in many situation when we talk about salaries and incomes

???

Did you compute them? do you know how?

The Brazil data I just posted has median around 1383, mean of 2308.36, which is 65% larger.

An interesting test: compute with details the median and mean of the data I just posted. I already gave you the answers. I think you don't understand these terms.

That you don't like the outcome of the most two commonly used indicators is not the fault of the indicators - it's the result of you wanting to put things in the data that are not there.

Your claim about Brazil having "hardly anyone", which I showed was nonsense, shows exactly what you're trying to do - put things in data that simply are not there (and in the case of your claim, are mathematically invalid no matter the income distribution).

>Now, if you start using the percentiles as you're doing here, then you are looking deeper into the data

Percentiles have the exact same graph as dollars, or pesos, or anything you desire.

% = exact$ / total $.

So they have the exact same graph, merely a different label. Do you understand this? The % of total income versus income shows nothing different, there is no "deeper into the data" or "more accurate and reflective of reality" for this.

It's simply scaling ALL the numbers by a constant. No one changes place. No income compared to another changes in ratio. There is no subtle nuance pulled out of anywhere.

>which just proves my point.

Is your point that you don't know what any of these terms mean? Then yes, you proved your point. Mean, median, percent, ratio, decile, all the terms related to income - you have screwed them all up beyond reason.

Don't bother replying until you answer the questions I poste last time:

Do you admit 50% of people in Brazil make median income or more? What amount of people did you mean by "hardly anyone"?

Also answer: is the graph of income by % the same geometric shape as income by $, or yen, or peso, or any currency you care to pick, thereby giving no "looking deeper into the data"?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:18PM (#32158106)
> Do you admit 50% of people in Brazil make median income or more?

You're pretending to not understand what I said. The figure for median income of 8K is very different from what most people make in Brazil, because a lot of people will make less than that, and a lot make more than that. So, the median has little value, because there is just a small group that makes close to that figure compared to the other groups that make more or less. It is a society with large inequality that is polarized on the two sides, instead of concentrating on the middle. My point is that this measure is more useful for societies that have more equality, such as a few countries in Europe. For the US, the median is less and less useful to get a clear picture.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:23AM (#32166180)
>You're pretending to not understand what I said. The figure for median income of 8K is very different from what most people make in Brazil, because a lot of people will make less than that, and a lot make more than that

I see you've moved from "hardly any" to "a lot". Nice goal post move. I bet if you look at the actual data enough you might get to what the data shows.

The majority of people, for every country for which there is data, are close to the median income. End of story. You so far have posted so many simple math errors that it's hard to know where you got your understanding of these things.

> It is a society with large inequality that is polarized on the two sides, instead of concentrating on the middle.

There is no such country. Don't believe me? You can check this yourself:

[1] has all the data to check. Select the datasets showing income share. Select them, pick years, say 2016-2021. Download the CSV. There are 114 countries in the dataset for which all 5 quintiles of income are available for recent years.

For each compute the median. Then look at how close the middle 60% of the people are to the median.

If you really want to see that distributions are not what you believe, graph every single one. If you need tools, jupyterlab using python, pandas, and matplotlib make this task pretty easy.

In EVERY single one you will find the majority of people are decently close to the median. I just checked. Do it yourself so you stop believing all this mystical non-existent income distribution where people are not majority near the median.

I know you're convinced there are income distributions like those you made up, but there simply are not. It is empirical fact.

So, if you want to continue to claim what you are - do what I told you to do, pick the country you think best supports your claim, and post the actual data.

Until then you are simply wrong.

This is why economists, even those working in inequality, start with the median income when discussing income. It is the best point indicator of what the majority of people in a society earn.

[1] https://databank.worldbank.org/reports.aspx

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by wandernotlost on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:03AM (#32151581)
The US is way down the list at 120 for income equality, worse than most of the "developed world". That median hides a lot in a country of over 320 million.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/gini-index-coef...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:05AM (#32151613)
The US also has just about the richest poor in the world - so if reducing inequality means making the poor demonstrably poorer, is that a good solution?

Last I checked, poverty line in the US is at the 85th percentile in world income.

And most importantly, most of that inequality and poverty levels are what are called pre-tax-transfer: they do not account the value given the poor and lower incomes via benefits, which lowers a lot of that inequality (and makes our poor even richer than most of the planet).

For fun, pick a country that you think is better for lower income people, and let's look into it :)

Inequality is relative. Absolute income means a significant amount, even more so to the poor.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by milchek on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:17AM (#32149603)
Out of curiosity, where did you get these numbers from? I’m not from the US, but what I do read and see on the internet is that people in the US also have a lot of debt (education, medical, and of course credit) I’m surprised that even for median disposable the US is number 1. But then again, maybe it’s a case of the internet being drowned out by a vocal minority?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Noumenon72 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:53AM (#32149809)
Rich people have more debt than poor people because they have more ability to repay. The only way debt could truly signify one country is worse off than another is if the situation were unstable (people accumulating debt in a short-term crisis and they will not be able to repay).
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Bromeo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:36AM (#32150133)
I was also surprised, but it seems to be true. Wikipedia lists the median disposable income after adjusting for local prices (PPP), and USA is first on that list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by unilynx on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:39AM (#32151246)
Building up debt seems a good way to increase disposable income, at least in the short run.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by olalonde on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:45AM (#32151335)
That metric probably doesn't factor in cost of living, cost of education, cost of healthcare, etc. The US isn't particularly young. But regardless, I didn't mean that the US was not a good place to live. It does extremely well on most metrics. My point was that there are many countries, including ones that are tiny in comparison (definitely not "top dog"), that enjoy comparable standards of living. The US could retain its high standards of living without being the "top dog".
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:10AM (#32151699)
>That metric probably doesn't factor in cost of living, cost of education, cost of healthcare, etc.

Ito does, it's PPP adjusted. Just look it up instead of projecting flaws to obtain a result you desire.

>My point was that there are many countries, including ones that are tiny in comparison (definitely not "top dog"), that enjoy a comparable standards of living.

I agree completely. All the top countries would be good places to live, with tradeoffs here and there.

But for most of the world, the US is a terrific alternative to where they are, at least if one wants to raise their standard of living.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by olalonde on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:09AM (#32152591)
The US does indeed do better than most of the world. I just don't think it's fair to credit its success to its status as a "top dog" or superpower. In my opinion, the vast majority of the credit goes elsewhere, e.g. its (largely) free enterprise system, capacity to attract foreign talent, top universities, culture, etc.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by themitigating on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:16AM (#32149985)
Why would you normalize for age?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ChrisLomont on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:17AM (#32151830)
Because old people tend to have more wealth since they had a lifetime to accumulate. This places with older people tend to be richer, but that does not necessarily translate to what happens to an average person in a society.

For example, in the US the median network for an 69 year old (right around retirement) is over 33 times as much as an 18 year old [1], with values in between spread as expected. So a society with significantly more old people (such as Japan) would have higher median wealth but not necessarily more income (for example, US pays more than Japan on average [2], but we're younger).

So, if you move to Japan from the US assuming you'll end up richer, you may be making a mistake because you made that choice based on comparing things incorrectly.

This is why it matters.

[1] https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/

[2] https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/japan/usa?sc=XE...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by BlargMcLarg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:25AM (#32150056)
Because that wealth isn't useful to individuals who are far away from accessing it, and that access / wealth can still change as they approach the age of access. Additionally, the idea of "start low end high" is being questioned by many individuals who would rather have a more flat curve while starting higher initially.

GP even mentioned the reason in their post.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mattgperry on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:35AM (#32149362)
Personally I think it's better to "do by example" with other open western democracies. And then when dealing with China etc rather than letting them roughshod over your financial and data economies because of principles or whatever, enforce the same rules upon them as they put upon you. Then there's an actual incentive and mechanism by which trade can open up in a fair manner. Our (speaking broadly about the west) current approach to China is madness.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by lazyeye on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:23AM (#32149636)
Ive never understood why the concept of reciprocity is so obvious yet never discussed. China blocks your apps, you block theirs.

I guess you'd have to be an idiot like Trump to even suggest such a thing.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by layer8 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:13AM (#32149972)
“The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.”
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by zmgsabst on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:28AM (#32150079)
Reciprocity is so fundamental to nature that people can’t stop doing it:

Most of the studies about “people are irrational” are times psychologists fail to realize that people are acting on an iterated (rather than single round) game — and enforcing reciprocity through their “irrational” acts.

We know at an instinctive level that reciprocity is necessary in game theory — eg, Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by aesch on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:51PM (#32154521)
Reciprocity is necessary but one of the best strategies for iterated prisoner's dilemma is tit-for-tat or "equivalent retaliation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat

You always start out by cooperating but if someone defects on you, you defect on them.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mnw21cam on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:37AM (#32152160)
There are situations where it is entirely rational and advantageous to make people think you are irrational.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by elashri on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:15AM (#32150996)
But the law acts sometimes a deter factor. Because you know you will lose your eye if you damage someone else (at least on purpose).
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by layer8 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:29AM (#32152036)
It leads to escalation because people (or nations) disagree about when the balance is restored, due to loss aversion (subjectively feeling more intensity from a loss than from an objectively equivalent win), among other things. That leads to perpetual eye for an eye for an eye for an eye, and to a tendency to increase rather than decrease the reciprocity.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by lazyeye on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:57PM (#32159058)
Maybe in some situations its better to risk escalation than be complacent and submissive? There are millions of examples in life where this is the case.

Your argument is so general as to be almost meaningless. It can be used to justify not responding to almost anything.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by lazyeye on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:27AM (#32150073)
Lol...taking the high moral ground in this situation is naive in the extreme.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:33AM (#32151177)
The US is in direct competition with China. Why let someone play by rules that are more advantageous to them if you dont have to?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by lazyeye on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:35PM (#32160254)
To understand how this situation has come about have a read of "Red-Handed" by Peter Schweizer.

The Chinese "elite capture" program is well-documented. They intentionally ensnare govt & business elites (and family members) in extremely lucrative deals with China to ensure they remain pro-China's interests. And there are some big names in there (Bidens, Pelosi, and McConnell etc).

The media doesnt talk about this corruption as they all have movie studios and want to sell their movies into China.

Its why there may be occasional discussion of the problem (like here) but for some inexplicable reason, simple and obvious steps are never taken.

The political will simply isn't there due to elite capture IMO.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by robertlagrant on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:53AM (#32149452)
> First, this ignores that the USA benefits tremendously from trading with other countries, most of all with China. If this mindset was applied universally, the USA (and the world) would be worse off.

This is true, but it only works if everyone does it. If one country is the main one that safeguards trade, releases costly scientific research (and open source codebases) for nothing and plays as well as it can, but others don't (and even look down on the safeguarding country for spending so much on defence instead of bread/circuses) then it takes a massive force of goodwill on the part of that one country to keep doing it.

(I am not a US citizen/resident, to pre-empt the standard ad hominem :)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:32AM (#32149684)
> the average US citizen would still be better off than the average Chinese citizen

By what metrics? As an example, longevity is slightly higher in China than in US (77.30 years vs 77), it is GROWING in China while decreasing in US, or china has a transportation system that is orders of magnitude better than the US one. Ever heard of the high speed train system and how quickly was it built?

Median income alone isn't enough to judge the quality of life of a country. I'd rather be poorer but live longer and in a country that works also for non-millionaires, but you can take more money with the lower longevity if you prefer.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by refurb on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:56AM (#32150280)
You realize vast swaths of China’s population are pretty much rural farmers living of less than $5,000 per year right?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:19AM (#32150455)
The poverty rate in US is ~14%, that's tens of millions of Americans living in poverty. Comparing incomes directly doesn't help, how much can $5k buy you in China vs how much can the poverty level income buy you in US?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by thematrixturtle on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:53AM (#32151444)
The Per capita income of the United States is 5.78 and 3.61 times higher than that of China in nominal and PPP terms, respectively.

So the answer is that even in purchasing power parity terms, the average American is 4x richer.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:16AM (#32163241)
Except that in the US it just takes some health issue to put you in debt for years/life. Or that to exist in the US you are required to buy a car and so on, since it has a third world public transportation system.

The pont being that you can still have somewhat higher life standards with less purchasing power but a stronger social state.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by refurb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:10AM (#32164047)
Except if you’re one of the 60% rural farmers who have access to only the most basic medical care and limited local public transit.

Not everyone lives in Shanghai or Beijing you know.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @05:00AM (#32235922)
Like not everyone lives in Los Angeles or Washington you know. There's cities like Detroit, there's cities without drinkable water, there's countless trailer parks.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by refurb on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:49AM (#32150722)
You're not arguing that poverty in the US is comparable to poverty in China are you?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:01AM (#32150846)
You're not bombing me with uninteresting rethorical questions are you?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Consultant32452 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:31AM (#32150565)
Okay, let's assume there's total economic equality between Americans and Chinese.

In China if you're the wrong religion they put your men in prison camps and assign a rapist to sleep in bed with your women and indoctrinate them into the communist party.

If you are in prison, China will murder you and sell your organs.

In China the labor conditions are so bad they have to install "suicide nets" in factories because so many people try to jump out of windows or off roofs to kill themselves.

America has MANY warts, but there's really no comparison.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pastacacioepepe on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:49AM (#32150723)
It's pointless to get into a competition for who's worst. I disagree at least partially on each one of your points and could reply with something equally bad or worse that's happening right now in the US, but I won't as we're talking about economics, not unsourced genocide claims.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:00AM (#32151546)
China is rich North Korea. Even if China were much richer than the US, it would be better to live in the US.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:58PM (#32157881)
>China is rich North Korea

And US is Russia with better PR? :-D

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roberttod on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:53AM (#32149098)
Your first argument sounds like appeasement, didn't work so well in WW2. Sounds like burying your head in the sand hoping no one will do anything bad.

I think the parent post means top dog in military and power sense, not welfare of citizens which is all well and good until another nation is trying to undermine your core values.

> Your successor will be judged by the standard you set

What successor are we thinking of here? Is that China? India? Russia? These are all very scary regimes.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roenxi on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:30AM (#32149328)
The story of appeasement was basically that the Nazis kept invading places, country after country, until they tried to take on the USSR and got transformed into paste (the US getting involved being a major factor). It was really quite breathtaking in hindsight because they wouldn't stop and obviously didn't intend to stop, ever.

gp's argument has no parallel to appeasement.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roberttod on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:51PM (#32157796)
> treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it.

That's what I was referring to. Not appeasement exactly but seems like similar logic.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roenxi on Thursday July 21, 2022 @05:36AM (#32177340)
That logic is nothing like appeasement. Or if it is then appeasement is a great strategy that we should all be using daily at all levels of societal organisation.

Making enemies of people who are not enemies is one of the stupidest moves imaginable. It is hard to overstate how mistaken that sort of mistake would be.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Santosh83 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:03AM (#32149512)
Yes indeed. Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries, whether for freedom, WMD or some other crap excuse. One of them is actually a functioning democracy. On the other hand a citizen of a country that has invaded almost a dozen sovereign nations, conducted almost an equal number of proxy wars and even used nuclear weapons twice, thinks we are scary. And lumps Russia, China and India all into one ill defined category of "scary regimes"...

All this ignoring for the moment the general Western enterprise of erstwhile colonialism and current economic neocolonialism that makes the destruction wrought upon developing nations by direct war/attacks pale in comparison.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ravel-bar-foo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:36AM (#32149706)
> Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries

Limiting ourselves to the currently existing states, India has annexed Hyderabad, Junagardh, Dadra, and Nagar Haveli, while China has invaded India and Vietnam, and is presently annexing the South China Sea. This doesn't excuse the US actions in Iraq, but it does show that they are less unique than you claim.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:31AM (#32150557)
Most of those were merged into India, not invaded. The ones that were invaded resulted in minimal losses, in the order of hundreds. It also happened 60 years ago.

Now compare this to Afghanistan.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by sgjohnson on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:43AM (#32153221)
> Now compare this to Afghanistan.

The same Afghanistan that was invaded by the Soviet Union?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:01PM (#32154698)
We are talking about India and China, not Soviet Union.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by plonk on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:36AM (#32149709)
> Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries

If you consider Taiwan a country, that's technically true but misleading. China would have invaded long ago if the US weren't capable or (claiming to be) willing to defend it.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:26AM (#32150518)
[citation needed]. US claims that’s true, but everyone who remembers Iraq knows US loves a good lie. China, on the other hand, explicitly declares they won’t invade. China also doesn’t have much to gain by invading, and everything to lose.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by thematrixturtle on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:55AM (#32151483)
Could you point us to China saying that? AFAIK China's policy is precisely the opposite: they've repeatedly made it very clear they will use military force if Taiwan ever proclaims independence.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:29PM (#32156725)
No - they made it clear that they will use military force if US invades Taiwan. They also made it very clear that they want peaceful solution, because their economy doesn’t depend on waging wars.

Feel free to prove otherwise; note that Chinese statements are quite often misquoted.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by thematrixturtle on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:37PM (#32160277)
“If anyone dares to split Taiwan from China, the Chinese army will definitely not hesitate to start a war no matter the cost,” Defence Minister Wei Fenghe said during a meeting with Lloyd Austin on Friday.

“The PLA [People’s Liberation Army] would have no choice but to fight … and crush any attempt of Taiwan independence, safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/10/china-tells-us-it-w...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:08AM (#32164035)
If anyone dares, not if Taiwan dares. Like I said, this is about third party involvement.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:06AM (#32151635)
sorry but you sound like a wumao
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:55PM (#32157849)
And you don’t find it weird that any argument that doesn’t match current US policy looks wumao to you?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roberttod on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:24PM (#32158179)
Perhaps not really fair to lump India in with China and Russia.

My biggest concern is domestic policy, given that being "top dog" would probably imply a general cultural and political movement towards whichever regime wins.

USA has done awful things, and nowadays seems to have a very uncertain future but values such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion are important to humanity and happiness imo and they still stand in the US despite all the craziness.

China and Russia shouldn't need any explanation in that respect, I can point to many sources. India's BJP is almost openly persecuting Muslims and doctoring history to be more Hindu.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by themitigating on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:15AM (#32149982)
"As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player."

The country or its people? This seems like a very selfish sentiment. Shouldn't we want everyone to prosper, no matter where they are from? There are countless who may not be able to afford to emigrate to the US

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by rapnie on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:25AM (#32150059)
Wonder if GP would also support a repressive regime to remain 'among top dogs' in case democracy were toppled in own country (which is not unthinkable).
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by zmgsabst on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:25AM (#32150052)
You can want to be the best and want everyone to succeed.

You accidentally revealed your own zero-sum thinking in associating “top player” with putting other people down.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:54AM (#32150265)
> This seems like a very selfish sentiment.

Just show's how well they've integrated into American society.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:24AM (#32150039)
Life is largely zero-sum.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:44AM (#32150192)
This is a weird thought. Nearly none of my wife is zero sum.

Who loses out if I buy you a beer? Or if my wife and I love each other? Or if people are nice to others?

Like seriously - if I treat someone else with respect and dignity am I required to shit on someone else? Of course not.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:29AM (#32150544)
Zero sum doesn’t mean there is a loser to every transaction. It just means that the net total change is zero. You buy a friend a beer, and you get a beers worth of camaraderie.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:33AM (#32150584)
What remains constant when I give my son a hug? Or I say, “thank you?”

The zero-sum game is life stuff is nonsense.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by echelon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:52AM (#32150747)
When you eat food, something had to die for that. It was a transfer of biochemical energy from that creature to you.

Even if it was a vegetarian meal, it got transported to you and dumped CO2 into the atmosphere. The truck probably hit bugs and maybe ran over some small wildlife.

If you didn't exist, there would be slightly less demand. If 300 million of you didn't exist, there would be a whole lot less demand. The world would be noticeably different.

Everything is energy expenditure and reallocation. Even hugging your son expends ATP that could have been used elsewhere. Hug him a million times and you will be very tired.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't love your son. I'm saying that the world, at the most fundamental level, revolves around the availability of energy and resources. All of these things in the micro add up in the macro. And even if you aren't concerned about it, your government likely is.

Every single choice has some quantum of opportunity cost and will play out in butterfly effect fashion.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by diogenes_of_ak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:27AM (#32152003)
I think this is a stretch here, you’re saying “entropy is real, thus the universe is zero sum.”

Hell, we don’t even know if the energy budget for the universe is a constant - we just haven’t observed the opposite yet.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by echelon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:21PM (#32153986)
In terms of the energy you want to consume in a form factor you can utilize - food, coal if you want electricity today, plastics in tour phone, Amazon shipping, etc. - it's very much not constant.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kergonath on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:01AM (#32150320)
It is not. When I go shopping I give them a bill and I get something to eat. Both parties are better off after that transaction.

Similarly, if I am good at making stuff but terrible at growing stuff, by being in a community I can survive despite an utter lack of agricultural abilities and produce stuff that the farmers would not know how to make. Again, not zero sum.

You could argue that this is civilisation and unnatural. But nature is full of symbionts, not only predator/prey dynamics. “Life is a zero-sum game” sounds like something a social Darwinist would say to justify their pre-existing beliefs. It is in some instances, but it also isn’t in quite a lot of cases. It comes from a very incomplete understanding of life and ecosystems in general.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by retzkek on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:03AM (#32152498)
> Both parties are better off after that transaction.

What about the externalities of that transaction?

* If meat, what was killed to produce it? If veg, what was removed from the ground (and how will it be replaced)?

* Who was exploited in the production?

* What damage did you cause while traveling to the store?

* What damage was done while getting the goods/supplies to the store?

* What infrastructure was required to facilitate the transaction? What damage and opportunity costs did that inflict?

The economist would hand-wave all that away as being priced in by the "efficient" economy. Yet even the tiniest inefficiency (say, un/under-accounted damage to the environment caused by burning petroleum to power the vehicles involved) compounds over billions of such transactions every day over decades into massive debts that humanity must ultimately account for.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kergonath on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:27PM (#32155059)
> What about the externalities of that transaction?

You’re entirely right, though for now I am indeed going to wave my hands and argue that it was a first-order simplification, and that externalities do not turn it into a zero-sum game :)

In the grand scheme of things, yes, lack of foresight is going to bite us in the backside.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:28AM (#32150539)
I’m not sure you know what 0 sum is. Zero sum doesn’t mean you can’t exchange money for goods and services.

> When I go shopping I give them a bill and I get something to eat. Both parties are better off after that transaction.

Yes, you go shopping and exchange N dollars for N dollars worth of goods. The net change is 0. That’s why it’s zero sum. Of course, life isn’t truly 0 sum. Otherwise we’d have no total economic growth, which is clearly false. However, how those economic gains are distributed probably is 0 sum.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kergonath on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:22AM (#32151062)
> I’m not sure you know what 0 sum is.

“Zero-sum game is a mathematical representation in game theory and economic theory of a situation which involves two sides, where the result is an advantage for one side and an equivalent loss for the other”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game

> Zero sum doesn’t mean you can’t exchange money for goods and services.

Zero-sum means that when I win, the other party loses. It means that there cannot be a voluntary exchange, because to agree about an exchange both parties need to see an upside.

> Yes, you go shopping and exchange N dollars for N dollars worth of goods. The net change is 0.

That is not what it means, though. In any case, I am better off after the exchange because now I have something to eat. The merchant is better off as well because now they can buy an iPhone or something. We are both better off at the end, and nobody has to lose. A zero-sum game in this instance might be the farmer who was pressured to sell €10 cheaper so that the merchant can take these €10 as margin. There was a net transfer from one party to the other with no other upside. But it is far from the only type of situation in life.

The initial assertion was “life is a zero-sum game”. Not by a long shot.

> However, how those economic gains are distributed probably is 0 sum.

Again, that is not what it means. Game theory does not need the concept of currency.

Besides, even assuming that it were the case, the fact that the amount of most currencies in existence just keeps increasing is a proof that it does not work like that. Someone, somewhere has to generate that money, therefore there are net emitters.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#32154882)
> Besides, even assuming that it were the case, the fact that the amount of most currencies in existence just keeps increasing is a proof that it does not work like that. Someone, somewhere has to generate that money, therefore there are net emitters.

Money gets created from banks lending money from their deposits. This makes sense even in a zero-sum world.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:27AM (#32151114)
Yes, zero sum means a gain for one is a loss for another. But you’re not gaining or losing when you buy something. The seller isn’t gaining or losing either. You’re both trading like for like.

Again, zero sum does not imply like for like trades are impossible.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by zeroimpl on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:46AM (#32151341)
You are arguing purely on price but not considering other factors. To the person who bought the beer, the deemed value is probably more than they paid for it, and to the seller the beer was a liability due to having a limited shelf life and occupying shelf space. Thus there was a gain for both parties.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:52AM (#32151439)
The basis of the capitalist system is that price is set based off of worth to the sellers and buyers. Yes, I am arguing purely on price, because the price takes into account many different factors like the liability of holding stock and the utility of drinking with friends.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:21AM (#32151884)
>>> The basis of the capitalist system is that price is set based off of worth to the sellers and buyers. Yes, I am arguing purely on price, because the price takes into account many different factors like the liability of holding stock and the utility of drinking with friends.

Pricing isn’t perfect. It is typically the same for all. If I hadn’t been drinking water for a whole day, I would probably buy it anywhere I could and pay whatever the price. If I really need a medicine to live, I would probably pay whatever the price as long as I can afford it. And there are more examples of this

So, if something prices at 5 dollars, it can be worth more than 5 dollars to the seller and / or the buyer

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:55PM (#32155479)
So if pricing was perfect the world would be zero sum?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by KptMarchewa on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:32AM (#32152084)
It's extremely not. Cooperation generally benefits everyone, and hostility can decrease value for everyone besides few criminals on top.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:06PM (#32153728)
Benefiting from cooperation doesn’t mean something is or is not zero sum. Take war for example. I can team up with others to form an army and conqueror distant lands. By cooperating, everyone in the army benefits more than they could individually, but the source of those benefits comes from the zero-sum expense of others.

The only source (I can think of) of positive sum benefits is innovation. I can, for example, take iron ore, learn how to smelt steel, and use steel to get more iron ore. Smelting iron is still zero-sum, but learning how to smelt iron is what increases the size of the pie.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by KptMarchewa on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:31AM (#32162977)
Model war as hostility between nations or fractions. The fact that this fraction can be internally consistent does not mean that war represents cooperation.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by atwood22 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:06PM (#32167768)
I feel like if you need to redefine cooperation then your argument is a bit of a stretch.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by tuxie_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:01AM (#32148752)
Do you understand that your own government has even more power over you than a foreign one? It's in your best interest that no government collects this kind of data about you.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Aeolun on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:18AM (#32149995)
The country that you reside in has the most power over you simply by virtue of having an active police force and/or military. No need for any data collection whatsoever.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by d0mine on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:54AM (#32150778)
People had their life ruined for a tweet from a decade ago. Now imagine your whole life is tweeted minute by minute. Even if the current government won't hang you, it doesn't mean the next one won't do it for the things that are legal and completely normal today.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hjkl0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:10AM (#32149215)
But don’t forget that you also have much more power over your government than a foreign one.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ComodoHacker on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:15AM (#32149244)
Depends on country and government, TBH.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by jen20 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:09AM (#32148794)
The principle here isn’t about what is in your interest…
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Grimburger on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:02AM (#32148757)
> I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player

Good for you, but try imagine hearing this from a Chinese national.

"Whatever it needs" to do...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:12AM (#32148819)
Its exactly in line with what I said. End of the day, we're all on teams whether or not you like it.

And every single country on this planet has baggage. I have people in my family who are living who remember what it feels like to be considered sub-human by British imperialists as they allowed famines. On the grand scheme of things, if we add up the sins and good deeds, the USA has done more to improve the lives of people who are here than other places. It is one of the major reasons my family and I immigrated here. Is it perfect? No. But it is a place where a bunch of different types of people attempt to build something together. Gridlock sucks, sometimes it feels pretty awful, but just speaking personally for myself there's nowhere else in the world where someone like me (with my skin color, religious preferences, etc.) would be able to go as far, or further.

For all its faults, the USA has

- elected an African American president twice

- fought itself and destroyed its own people and cities over slavery

- helped stop 2 world wars

- most of the top companies and talent

- created a sense of world stability where people for the most part chill the f out when they see and want $USD

And it has also caused some problems along the way, I'm sure you can name many of them. But again, in 2022, when I do a simple calculation of where I (with my own baggage and attributes) would most prosper, I can't think of another country. I have been to Japan, loved it there, but it isn't the melting pot that America is. Again these are just my opinions, as someone who immigrated to the USA and is proud to call themselves a US citizen.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by whyagain1885 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:47AM (#32149053)
> elected an African American president twice

This is a bit of a fallacy. The institutions/administration from top-to-bottom is important. For example, Scandinavia never had a black/brown head of state but still the police would not treat you badly like it happens in US. Yes, I have lived there.

Another example, India had head of state from all different religions but does not mean all is fine and clean.

The institutions are important - not the person.

PS: In principle, you as US citizen want your country to top dog. All fine. At the end if every country thinks they themselves want to unilaterally be top - conflicts happen.

At some point one needs to think universally - and establish a level.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arvinsim on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:17AM (#32148850)
Sounds like a case of "I had mine so you all can go f*ck yourselves"
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:23AM (#32148891)
That's not at all what I'm saying but ok. Don't worry, I vote for education reform/strength each time, its something I think is lacking here in some areas.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:57AM (#32149123)
Lacking? That's putting it mildly. In a lot of poor areas - or areas that are populated mostly by minorities - education is just poor. As in, so poor that there are issues transferring college credits other places in the world.

Realistically, you have it backwards. In some areas, the education is fine. In many - probably the majority - it simply isn't and you'll be indebted for the rest of your life unless you are really lucky. We (Americans) pay teachers poorly and treat a number of students like criminals while punishing those same students in ways that they cannot get the same education as their peers. And this is after we've failed to make sure children have food and housing so that they can put effort towards learning.

"Lacking in some areas"... yeah. With a generous definition of some.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by JCharante on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:43AM (#32149405)
> On the grand scheme of things, if we add up the sins and good deeds, the USA has done more to improve the lives of people who are here than other places.

Interestingly enough, this is the same pro CCP argument but applied to the US.

I will say that the melting pot is true and that the US is one of the most immigration friendly places I've been to. (from a cultural side, not from a paperwork side). In other places you can be there for 20 years and never be considered a true citizen while in the US people would consider you a true American.

[dead]
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by strangegecko on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#32149089)
> Who cares? Is this an American thing to always brag something about race, or how much "non-racist we are"? Nobody gives a sh* here.

As another European who lives in Asia, I don't understand this European love of blanket ranting against Americans. Yes, the US still has a racism problem. In fact, every country in the world has racism problems.

That doesn't make the topic of who can get elected irrelevant. Can you imagine ANY kind of foreigner getting elected into government in China? Or even in, say, Germany? These are different degrees of cultural openness.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mejutoco on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:11AM (#32149221)
> Can you imagine ANY kind of foreigner getting elected into government in China

Obama was/is african-american, not a foreigner

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by strangegecko on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:16AM (#32151804)
Sorry, foreigner was a clumsy choice here, and I chose it because in many Asian countries it's quasi synonymous. People of different origin are always foreigners to the local population, whether they're permanent residents or citizens or not. Maybe I should have said "someone who isn't part of the majority ethnically".
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by plonk on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:40AM (#32149734)
That's true but a black Chinese citizen probably won't have a chance for a long time either.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by christophilus on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:31AM (#32149339)
US presidents cannot be foreigners. It’s written into the highest law of the land.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by DFHippie on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:59AM (#32150307)
This is true, but the hatred Obama faced generally revolved around a belief that he was effectively foreign if a legal citizen and, moreover, a citizen by birth. He wasn't a "real American" -- these were the words used by Sarah Palin. And generally conservatives in the US regard non-conservatives as less American than themselves. The reverse is not the case. Bernie and AOC don't suggest Trump isn't American.

I'm curious how universal this is. The fascist regimes of the mid 20th century all demonized a large segment of their own population and put them outside the protection of the state, or rather, targeted them as enemies of the state and the "true" citizens. How does Marine Le Pen speak of the left-leaning French? Japan is a particularly ethnically uniform nation. Does the Right in Japan regard the Left as non-Japanese? If so, does the Left reciprocate, or does it regard the Right as Japanese but wrong?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by least on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:53AM (#32150252)
> EUropean here.

> Who cares? Is this an American thing to always brag something about race, or how much "non-racist we are"?

It matters because it's unprecedented in the United States, which is far more diverse than any other country in the world by a long shot. Think about all the racial tension that exists in most European countries from some sizable "outsider" populations. Roma in most of Europe. Polish in England. Turks in Germany. The United States completely eclipses all of that because we have accept more refugees and immigration than any other country in the world and we have the largest immigrant population in the world.

> Nobody gives a sh* here.

Probably not if you are part of the roughly 90 percent of people in any given state in Europe that happen to be the right race.

> In my opinion, US is still racist AF.

Yes, which is why seeing a black president be elected is remarkable.

> And it can mean racist against all kinds of people, even against white people. But you don't want to hear that ;-P ;-P

Racism is a shared tradition amongst all people and ironically it does not discriminate.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:27AM (#32152006)
>United States, which is far more diverse than any other country in the world

Here’s one fundamental problems with many Americans: they know nothing about outside world.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by least on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:55AM (#32153502)
Name a more ethnically/racially diverse country.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:59PM (#32154659)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

Literally half of all the worlds countries is more diverse.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by least on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @02:10PM (#32155719)
The methodology used in this list is deeply flawed. It depends on US Census Bureau data which does not make distinctions between subgroups of ethnicities, despite them being culturally and racially distinct from each other. Indians (which could be broken down into further subgroups), Afghani (which could be further broken down into Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras, etc.), Japanese and Laotians are not the same people but they'd all be classified as Asian. This does not paint an accurate picture of the incredible diversity that exists in the United States. In contrast, Uganda, which was ranked the highest on this list, has much more granular data available.

I'd urge you to pause your ignorant, inflammatory, and xenophobic takes for a moment to reflect on whether or not they're even true.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:08PM (#32158000)
But of course you don’t have any data to support it, how surprising.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by least on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:15PM (#32158688)
The United States Census Bureau's official population counts, as I've said, use very broad groups to categorize ethnicities which is not reflective of just how many groups of people live in the United States. Korea has an idea of how many Koreans are living in the United States currently [1] and you can probably type just about any sort of ethnicity, nationality, or race, and find some estimates or information about their presence in the United States. The Census Bureau does perform (unofficial) surveys that can give you a glimpse of the demographics in the US [2] [3] as well.

We have the largest population of immigrants in the world [4] and the nation is comprised almost entirely of non-indigenous people. The fact that the US is incredibly diverse is not controversial to anyone that is even modestly informed.

[1] https://www.mofa.go.kr/www/wpge/m_21509/contents.do

[2] https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2000/dec/phc-t-43.html

[3] https://archive.ph/20200212212204/http://factfinder.census.g...

[4] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:01PM (#32159993)
>We have the largest population of immigrants in the world

Until you realize that metric would only be meaningful per capita, which again proves you’re talking rubbish:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by least on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:06AM (#32162844)
> Until you realize that metric would only be meaningful per capita

Why would this metric only be meaningful per capita?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by evgen on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:53AM (#32149449)
> Is this an American thing to always brag something about race, or how much "non-racist we are"? Nobody gives a sh* here.

Sure, you have no racial problems of your own to deal with... (http://www.romea.cz/en/news/czech/harvard-survey-over-15-yea...) There is an old saying about people in glass houses that you may want to consider. You may also wish to stop kidding yourself when raising the question of whether or not you are on your knees servicing American interests; if you did not see yourself in such a position then it would probably be unnecessary for you to act with such childish hostility.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Aeolun on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:21AM (#32150015)
> if you did not see yourself in such a position then it would probably be unnecessary for you to act with such childish hostility

I think OP is aware of this? The US is better to be beholden to than Russia or China, but ideally the EU would be the union it claims to be instead of a bunch of bickering city-states.

I resent that too. I think the US is objectively a worse country, but somehow, everything useful to the world happens there. I’m just sad that such an exploitative way of living is what apparently drives progress.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:02AM (#32149152)
Historically speaking (for millenia), Europeans obliterated my people in the past, enslaved each other and most of the world, and stole so much to build your wealth.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:26AM (#32150511)
> EUropean here.

This is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Europe raped the rest of the world for nearly 500 years: the British Raj, the Belgian Congo, the Opium wars, the race for Africa, Apartheid are but a few examples.

Europe created modern chatel slavery.

Europe started the WWI and WWII.

Europe birthed Nazism and Communism.

Many of the problems we currently face are the result of European meddling: from the Sykes-Picot agreement, to Iran, to African civil wars.

The US has been a far more benign superpower than (collectively) Europe ever was.

UPDATE:

Even racism (scientific racism) is a European invention, mainly to justify why it was good for Europeans to subjugate the rest of the world.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by pier25 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:37AM (#32152153)
The world was very different back then.

If the US had been a super power in the 17th or 18th century you can be certain they would have colonized other countries as well.

Regarding WWI and WWII, Europe has never had the homogeneous culture of big states like the US. Again, wars have been the norm for most of humanity. The current peaceful era is really an anomaly.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:38PM (#32154271)
The difference is that Europe stopped doing most of this a century ago, and US didn’t.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:08PM (#32154794)
Europe stopped doing most of this a century ago, mainly because they couldn’t anymore.

It is like the bully who broke both legs and then goes around on crutches and tells everyone how great he is in that he doesn’t beat people up anymore.

Do you think the UK would have given up India if it were not for the devastation of two world wars?

Look at how France fought to keep its colonies in Algeria and Vietnam?

Look at how Germany bullies countries like Greece and Italy and cozies (up until very recently) to Putin.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:52PM (#32158462)
Yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that Europe doesn’t do that anymore. The fact the past vices went unpunished doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.
[dead]
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by random-human on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:57AM (#32150802)
The British brought over, sold, and legalized slavery in the 13 colonies (and other North American locations), long before the USA was even a thing. The USA slave problem was started by Europeans.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by peoplefromibiza on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:37AM (#32153097)
> The USA slave problem was started by Europeans.

You mean Dutch and British, right?

Not all Europeans are equal

- In 959, Doge Pietro Candiano IV emitted a decree stipulating that no Venetian citizen could lend money to a Greek slave trader, and no Venetian ship would be permitted to transport slaves in Greece. The ban on slave transport was later extended "Ultra Polam" or beyond the Venetian outpost of Pola

- In 1435 Pope Eugene IV condemned slavery, of other Christians, in Sicut Dudum; furthermore, he explicitly forbade the enslavement of the Guanches.

- On 22 December 1741, Pope Benedict XIV promulgated the papal bull "Immensa Pastorum Principis" against the enslavement of the indigenous peoples of the Americas and other countries

Long before the USA was a thing (and Italy for that matter)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by random-human on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:04PM (#32153677)
And also the Spanish and French. When discussing 16th-18th century North America, encompassing the slave trade as being started by Europeans is not inaccurate.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:30AM (#32148929)
We can nitpick til the end of time, and I agree with you on those points. Like I said in my comment, nobody is perfect. Hell my own people were used as slaves for the longest times and called "sub humans".

We can do this for so many countries, I mean some of them literally murdered millions of people in camps (Germany, USSR, China), some of them were so corrupt their entire nations failed (Sri Lanka, African nations with people like Mugabe, etc.), while others were quiet and complacent in the conquest and rape of the world (most European countries) and now tell others from a high horse.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:50PM (#32154497)
I love how USA isn’t on the list, despite the two millions of people imprisoned in US camps, which is some 25% of worlds total prison population. Not to mention ongoing prison slavery which is reportedly critical to economy in some states.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by RektBoy on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:49AM (#32149070)
Thanks, I'm saving your post for some American tourists visiting my city. Good material for pub conversation. Ahahaha
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by PhantomBKB on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:54AM (#32149110)
Considering how many shootings happen in the US and so many victims being little children in schools, I find it odd that you think it's a great place to prosper when being shot at is a real life threat esp. for those who can't even protect themselves.

As an outsider, to me the American society doesn't seem like a sustainable one. And it corroborates the fact that so many Americans are emigrating out of America.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by danenania on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:25AM (#32149644)
While any school shooting is a tragedy (and imo we do clearly need stronger gun control in the US), they are extremely rare statistically.

https://www.city-journal.org/school-shootings-horrific-but-s...

“the annual odds that an American child will die in a mass shooting at school are nearly 10 million to 1, about the odds of being killed by lightning or of dying in an earthquake”

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by PhantomBKB on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:41AM (#32150171)
There's clearly a strong opposition against gun control in US, so the fact that the media is downplaying the shootouts by comparing it to natural disasters is not surprising.

But keep in mind, while Americans find it to be a commonality, it's rare to see news like this in other parts of the world: "...but students don’t need the active-shooter drills now conducted in over 95 percent of the nation’s schools..."

Active shooter drills? In schools? You folk live in a first world country but act like you are living in an active warzone

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by danenania on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:37AM (#32151212)
Reporting the actual data is not "downplaying". And the notion that the US media downplays school shootings is about as wrong as you could possibly be. Have you ever watched US news? School shootings get 24/7 coverage for weeks.

"Active shooter drills? In schools? You folk live in a first world country but act like you are living in an active warzone"

These things happen due to the same kind of fear mongering and statistical illiteracy you demonstrate in your comments. School shootings are horrible, but extremely rare. It would, of course, be better if we didn't have them, just like it would be better if we didn't have earthquakes, electrical storms, plane crashes, etc. but it's not rational to make life choices based on 1 in 10 million events.

You're also wrong about support for gun control. A majority of the US population supports stronger gun control. Unfortunately, in our political system, that's not sufficient to make it happen.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by PhantomBKB on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:20AM (#32151873)
Well, idk about you, but I hear of at least one school shooting in the US every week. Statistically, the numbers might not be much, but it sure caused 95% of schools to enforce active shooter drills, no?

> A majority of the US population supports stronger gun control. Unfortunately, in our political system, that's not sufficient to make it happen.

Isn't US a democracy? If majority of the population supports stronger gun control, it should be easy to pass.

Anyway, I don't mean to put you on the defensive. I understand that you love your country.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by danenania on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:45AM (#32152257)
That's because the media is sensationalist and uses fear mongering to drive up engagement and revenue.

Also, it's a big country. When you have a population of hundreds of millions, a lot of things that are extremely unlikely to ever impact an individual citizen will nonetheless happen on a regular basis somewhere in the country.

"Isn't US a democracy? If majority of the population supports stronger gun control, it should be easy to pass."

If only it were that simple.

"Anyway, I don't mean to put you on the defensive. I understand that you love your country."

I love some things and hate other things. I just think the discussion should be based on facts rather than emotion and hyperbole.

I agree that school shootings are a problem here and would like to see stronger gun control as much as anyone, but it isn't helpful to exaggerate the (very low) level of danger kids face in school.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by PhantomBKB on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:19AM (#32152772)
Fair enough.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by cscurmudgeon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:38AM (#32148982)
They have been hearing it for decades. They are more draconian in dealing with foreign entities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by peoplefromibiza on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:10AM (#32148804)
> "Whatever it needs" to do...

Like, for example, retake control of Taiwan.

https://eurasiantimes.com/perturbed-by-2nd-incursion-china-w...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:08AM (#32149540)
Whatever it needs to do becomes different based on how your country is governed.

China has unelected* leaders that at least in theory holds only Communist ideals.

While flawed, in a republic at least you get to vote for your leaders, and thus choose what ideals you like the best.

Of course republicanism or democracy does not preclude a country from committing horrible acts, but they are cleaned up much sooner, and those who are responsible for it are thrown out of office (and sometimes even into jail). Not so in authoritarian countries like China.

* You can technically vote in China, but due to its authoritarian nature only one party is allowed and you're expected to uphold the party line.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _emacsomancer_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:00AM (#32149866)
The US also runs on an authoritarian single party system, it's just that with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:56AM (#32176560)
No it doesn't. Except for cancel culture (which isn't state run btw), you can say and think almost whatever you like in the USA so long as it isn't prejudiced or harassing. You are also not punished for starting other parties in the USA, since it's completely legal. Thus there are alternatives to the Democrats and Republicans. The First Past the Post system just means that that it's extremely unlikely that alternatives will ever challenge the biggest two. Other than that the American system is decidedly liberal and free.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _emacsomancer_ on Thursday July 21, 2022 @03:19AM (#32176676)
"Other than in [any way that matters materially] the American system is decidedly liberal and free."
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Thursday July 21, 2022 @04:49AM (#32177097)
Can you please expand upon how the American political system isn't free in any way that matters materially?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _emacsomancer_ on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:36AM (#32178141)
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Thursday July 21, 2022 @10:08AM (#32179593)
What has that got to do with the political system in the USA? You have every opportunity of changing how American prisons are organized by participating in the political system. Nobody will jail you for having an opinion about it, or campaigning for prison reform, or hell, even legal reforms in general. Not so in China. If you criticize the state there, you do indeed risk jail, if you don't just suddenly vanish. The main difference here is that the USA has a largely liberal system, while China has an authoritarian one. Good luck surviving (!) in China if you have a strong political opinion about any issue pertaining to their state or their leadership. One of the main differences between the American and the Chinese system is that scrutiny and criticism is welcomed as a means of making things better in the USA, while it is punished in the People's Republic.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _emacsomancer_ on Thursday July 21, 2022 @10:51AM (#32180077)
> You have every opportunity of changing how American prisons are organized by participating in the political system.

How so? Both parties are all in on the prison-industrial scam. Likewise for healthcare, etc. I agree that the US has a largely 'liberal' system, in the classical sense of 'liberal'. I.e. capital trumps human beings.

And you ignore the fact that the US imprisons a much higher percentage of its population than other countries. Part and parcel of the authoritarianism (which is only increasing).

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Thursday July 21, 2022 @11:47AM (#32180786)
Welcome to democracy! As a minority opinion you will naturally not be able to force the majority to accept yours. If you did, that would be authoritarian and evil... You're still allowed to voice that opinion, however (within very liberal limits). For instance you can involve yourself more directly within the parties and run for various political positions, write petitions, become a member of pressure or lobby groups, arrange demonstrations, and many other things. Hell, you can even pointlessly troll discussions here on YT with political straw man arguments! And because you live in The Land of the Free nobody will jail you for it! This is why the American system is liberal and the Chinese system is not. But good luck on making prison reform in the USA. God knows they need it!

Edit: To answer your claim that:

> “(...) the US imprisons a much higher percentage of its population than other countries. Part and parcel of the authoritarianism.”

No, it's not. Every guilty prisoner in the USA had a public trial with a lawyer before they were sent to jail. In other words they had due process which is the mark of a liberal democracy. On the other hand due process is constantly broken in authoritarian regimes. A great example is, again, China, where you can be "vanished" just for having the wrong opinion, if you're not simply sent to a re-education camp that is for all intents and purposes a modern style of concentration camp.

Before you even try, can the USA be accused of the same thing? Why yes, because it imprisons enemy combatants which are then subjected to cruel an unusual treatment, for instance at Guantanamo Bay (which is amazingly still open for business). But crucially the USA does not do this to American citizens, so while they act horribly authoritarian towards external enemies, they do not act authoritarian against their own citizens, not even towards domestic political opponents.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by akho on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:12AM (#32149965)
In the US, you are expected to uphold the line that brings you donors. That makes leftist parties non-viable. That’s not such a big difference from the Chinese situation as you’d think, except in direction.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FreqSep on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:26AM (#32151102)
What makes leftist parties unviable is the majority of the population disapproving of socialism.

People online vastly overestimate the actual effect of money on political results, naturally disregarding all the donations made to candidates that lose and ignoring races where the lesser funded candidates win.

If Americans wanted a leftist government, they’d vote for it, simple as that. And yet even in the most left leaning states and cities in the nation , leftist principles have failed to gain much electoral ground.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by kebman on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:31AM (#32152993)
This is correct and supported by statistical findings within Political Science.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roca on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:36AM (#32150129)
The CCP:

-- Put a million Uighurs in camps

-- Persecutes followers of pretty much all religions --- Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Falun Gong, etc

-- Flat-out censors anything that offends them in the slightest

-- Puts whoever they want into detention with no kind of due process, from small-time activists to billionaires

-- Harvests the organs of (not previously dead) prisoners

-- Had drones peering into apartment windows during the latest COVID lockdown, broadcasting the literal message "control your soul's desire for freedom"

-- and of course is an autocracy in which Xi Jinping has absolute power

The USA is far from perfect but one thing we learned from Trump in 2016 and Bloomberg in 2020 is that money isn't everything in American politics. The parties do have major differences and bad actors can be held accountable.

I'm not American, but this equivalence that some people like to draw between the governments of China and the USA drives me crazy.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by akho on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:00AM (#32150839)
I was speaking strictly about access of differing view / value systems to the voting ballot, not judging the systems a whole. China sucks more.

(Though viewing China as a full autocracy with absolute power of a single individual is extremely simplistic)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by roca on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:18PM (#32160991)
Political representation of different view/value systems is much better in the USA than in China.

> (Though viewing China as a full autocracy with absolute power of a single individual is extremely simplistic)

It's overly simplistic, but less "overly" than it was 10 years ago.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:54AM (#32148710)
Well in that case I hope you don't moan when the EU places heavy restrictions on the data harvesting that American companies do.

I get the paranoia around China, I honestly do. I'm not at all unsupportive of the Chinese regime either. But this "one rule for us another for them" principle really needs to stop.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Cederfjard on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:59AM (#32148738)
Why should it stop, as long as nations continue to pose threats to each other and their populations? I support both the US and the EU putting these restrictions in place (until such a time when everyone can be trusted, if ever).
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:07AM (#32148781)
Because it's a cyclic argument that only leads to hostilities. Of course I'm not advocating that if we stop collecting data everyone will suddenly play nice. But that doesn't mean it isn't extraordinarily hypocritical to moan about China and the EU placing restrictions on US companies (as is a frequent gripe on HN) while simultaneously placing restrictions on China and EU firms too.

We need to learn to find a saner middle ground if we're ever to advance as a species.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by DangitBobby on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:54AM (#32152392)
I see very few (zero?) people groaning about data restrictions set by the EU.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:54AM (#32153469)
That doesn't mean it hasn't happened on threads you haven't seen. Anecdotally I've seen it happen a lot. Which, uncoincidentally, is also the reason why I mentioned it.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by DangitBobby on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:42PM (#32158365)
I thought you were saying it's a popular or majority opinion, which I don't believe to be the case. Otherwise, why would it be relevant?

Edit: I guess we can just see if any research has been done. If you trust this source, Americans seem to support (60% supporting versus 10% against) GDPR style data regulations [1].

1. https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/americans-say-br...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:07AM (#32162846)
That's not the same as saying they support the EU's regulations. Just that they'd support America imposing regulations. The issue being discussed here isn't whether people are in favour of privacy but whether they're in favour of international governments imposing restrictions on the way their home-grown corporations operate.

I appreciate from a high level the two questions overlap in this specific case study. However it's the framing of the question which really matters here, not the practical overlap.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by saiya-jin on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:30AM (#32148930)
Well first of all with this approach you will lose a lot of friends like EU (and australia, new zealand, south africa and gazillion more allies). US is not such trusty ally as it thinks it is already (ie all the spying on top european leaders, and thats just tip of iceberg).

US needs friends just like everybody else, alone it can project only so much influence. You don't keep friends by screwing them over continuously and having an untrustworthy upper hand over you all the time. And once we're not friends anymore, china may be an attractive alternative, whether you like it or not.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Cederfjard on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:06AM (#32149524)
I'm in Europe, so I'm writing this as someone who likes our governments protecting people from American (and Chinese) companies. Very happy to be a big happy family again if things improve.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by biohacker85 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:18AM (#32148860)
The companies themselves may moan but I don't think everyday Americans really care what the EU does.

> But this "one rule for us another for them" principle really needs to stop. Why would any nation treat foreign companies equal to their own? I don't see the problem especially when its from an adversary or a nation who's companies are an extension of their government.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:28AM (#32148921)
> The companies themselves may moan but I don't think everyday Americans really care what the EU does.

I was talking about the commentary I see on HN. I don't think everyday Americans care what China does either, let alone the EU.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by analognoise on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:37AM (#32148969)
It's about maintaining geopolitical advantage, not playground fairness.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by hnlmorg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:57AM (#32153536)
You say that but geopolitics rarely feels like it's ascended from playground maturity.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by cloutchaser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:06AM (#32149184)
>I get the paranoia around China, I honestly do. I'm not at all unsupportive of the Chinese regime either. But this "one rule for us another for them" principle really needs to stop.

Because they don't operate under the same rules. Tiktok isn't some free market startup at this point. Their CEO is ex Xiami and clearly a party member. I would bet a lot of money the CCP is putting unlimited resources into spreading Tiktok and harvesting data, plus manipulating sentiment of tiktok users.

This is NOT what US based companies do. They don't have government resources, and they sell ads. And the US government doesn't give a shit if snapchat or whoever else destroys facebook. They are not going to bail them out, or help them.

So it's not the same, it's not a fair fight, and in the background what the data is used for is probably completely different.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by rpastuszak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:51AM (#32150239)
> As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog. I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol, so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player.

The interests of your government might not necessarily be aligned with yours.

Likely, their personal gains or the interests of lobbyists would come first and not necessarily align with borders/the colour of your passport cover. If you wanna stay "top dog", perhaps think it through a bit more and think a bit broader.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by peoplefromibiza on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:01AM (#32148754)
> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player

I would argue that admitting that the only way to convince Chinese apps to not track American users is to ban them (mostly because it's eating their own dog food with TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps) doesn't sound much top dog, more like small dog barking at the big one.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bakugo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:09AM (#32149203)
> TikTok that's nowadays much more popular than America's own spying apps

America's spying "apps" aren't "apps", they're called operating systems and firmwares.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by peoplefromibiza on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:32AM (#32149345)
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:28AM (#32150078)
It seems to be your idea, that America is prosperous despite freedom, and that we must carefully dole out the freedom lest we lose our edge.

I believe that America was founded on the idea that we could be great because we are free, and that giving our people the opportunity to thrive and be productive will only, in the long run, make our prosperity that much greater.

It's been said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. You would interpret this, I think, to mean that we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends. But I see it as a statement that, even when it seems contradictory, investing in the people rather than the power over them will lead to a greater nation even when that seems counterintuitive.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FreqSep on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:29AM (#32151119)
> we should toss out the Bill of Rights anytime it seems inconvenient to our short-term ends

We already do this. You have the right to bear arms - just not nuclear ones.

America has always had to place reasonable restrictions on rights to ensure the public good.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Baloo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:35AM (#32149703)
>I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog

World is being destroyed because of this kind of view point. We need more collaboration, not 'me first'.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by netheril96 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:45AM (#32149413)
As a Chinese, I feel sad that China succeeds in exporting its idea of restriction to the world.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by programmer_dude on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:42AM (#32151298)
No need to be. It's all good as long as the restrictions are just quid pro quo.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by DrScientist on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:57AM (#32151512)
> so I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player.

Speaking as a friend - this attitude is becoming an existential problem for the US abroad. More and more countries are wondering if it's the US that's the problem.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mehdix on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:19AM (#32149614)
Only if the top-dog analogy would have worked in long term. More than often, citizens of wanna-be/wanna-remain top-dog countries find themselves in terrible position as soon as their interests mildly conflicts with those of their nation states and they suddenly become pray to the top-dog itself. One area where you can see this in action is secure communication. When it comes to secure private communications for citizens, suddenly all nation-states, left and right want to excert unlimited control over it and they are united in fight against encryption.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by dang on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:32PM (#32158852)
We detached this flamewar subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32148302.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by FpUser on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:43AM (#32151310)
>"I want USA to do whatever it needs to be the top player"

How far are you willing to go? Do you give a shit about people being killed so that your country stays rich and "on top"?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by desireco42 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:19AM (#32151855)
Haha, true, I didn't immigrate here to end up in 3rd world country as well, but the Internet is very important and for it to work, it has to apply the same rules for everyone.

Facebook and Google have a NSA servers that get all the traffic even before they reach them and have complete access into their info, then you can't complain when Chinese do the same, after all, they are admiring USA and copying what we are doing.

If we want Chinese to do better, we need to do better, they will follow.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by madeofpalk on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:16AM (#32149592)
What about the Canadians, Australians, or Dutch? Should they require App Stores to ban Facebook for giving data to foreign (US) governments?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by elif on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:33AM (#32150112)
It's easy to believe that until the top dog is on top of you

It is your data they are collecting, not some other dog's.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:38AM (#32148980)
>As for me, I'm an American and it is in my best interests that USA stays top dog.

What do you mean by USA though? It's not a monolithic object and has plenty of rivals too. Also if USA is top dog, it may get freedom to do whatever it wants to you, be careful about what you want. When was the last time absolute power produced good results?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by viraptor on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:30AM (#32150091)
Also, power changes hands over time. As we've seen recently, where suddenly period trackers with any server side storage are an actual liability and an extremely dangerous idea.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by sneak on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:01AM (#32149146)
Censorship always "makes sense" "from a geopolitical standpoint".

It never makes sense from a human rights standpoint.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Razengan on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:41AM (#32150173)
> I didn't immigrate here to downgrade lol

You can still upgrade, you know.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by andruby on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:36AM (#32148967)
> You don't want your rival to have a backdoor into influencing/manipulating/discovering how people in your nation are behaving

And yet, Russia heavily used Facebook to influence/manipulate American behaviour during the election.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by washadjeffmad on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:45AM (#32150687)
Do you distinguish between private companies that are homed in Russian and the Russian government?

If not, do you distinguish between companies that are homed in the US and the US government?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by andruby on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:13PM (#32153843)
I do distinguish between both. How does that relates to my comment?
[dead]
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by puszczyk on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:04AM (#32148766)
Seriously, you equate banning TikTok to being a racist or an antisemite?
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by manuelmoreale on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:25AM (#32148901)
I think they’re equating the mindset of “my group of people who happens to have this nationality has to be top dog” with “my group of people who happens to have this skin color has to be top dog”

This is not really about tik tok but more about the broader stance expressed by the comment they’re replying to.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arvinsim on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:18AM (#32148863)
Banning Tiktok would have serious geopolitical consequences.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by JCharante on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:46AM (#32149417)
Just apply the same rules to them as they do to us and require them to store US data on US servers and give the government the encryption keys.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:27AM (#32148525)
Which takes me at why we have to be rivals (we people in countries), because government are rivals and monopolize trading and resources for themselves? It is very stupid that we passively accept those rules and let them drag us like that into things of this nature.

I am really (I am european) pissed off by the fact that someone decided we needed a war with Ukraine when we do not have anything for/against Russia or Ukraine in principle and they start to make pressure to all private business, etc. to make them do what these people want us to do. Literally in Spain I saw even bad press for people selling clothes (Mango) or yoghurts (Danone) just because they kept selling those products to normal Russian people. So govts can sell/send weapons to Ukraine with our taxes and without our permission at the same time they encourage and point to private company doing regular business so that they stop selling there? Seriously?

I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone. If I am not selling intelligence for spying or weapons, what is wrong? I really do not get it.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by klodolph on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:46AM (#32148658)
> I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone.

The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war. Europe learned some very rough lessons in the 20th century and earlier, leading up to the formation of the EU and before that the formation of the UN. These institutions and other institutions were created by people with memories of large-scale war fresh in their minds.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:59AM (#32148742)
> The reason that systems of economic sanctions exist is to provide alternatives to war

I am not talking about this. I am talking about the fact that it is an oligarchy who chooses whether we go to war or not. I do not think most spanish think that Spain should be involved in a war that is at the other side of Europe where either of those country did anything to us. This is what I mean.

These wars respond to oligarchies interests, not to normal citizens interests.

I do not know if you get my point. Maybe there are real problems in Ukraine, well there are. But how is that really a reason to involve Spain? Why? Diplomacy, yes, sending weapons no. What if Russia decides we are in a black list later? Were we able to make a choice? Bc this involves our security and our economy and affects normal citizens.

So there is necessarily someone interested in this that is not normal, average people like me.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by klodolph on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:14AM (#32148837)
This is how governments behaved in 1930, and bad things happened.

If we are going to make mistakes, I hope we make new mistakes, instead of making the same mistakes from 100 years ago.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by checkyoursudo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:49AM (#32149071)
I hate to be the one to tell you ...
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:03AM (#32148764)
Your beef is with Vladimir Putin, not some nameless "oligarchy." As was pointed out to you, Europe has learned some hard lessons about the consequences of appeasement. The mistakes made in the 1930s must not be repeated with Russia today.

If you find this truth to be offensive, tragic, or overly inconvenient, well... so do all who live to see such times, as the guy with the long gray beard said.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by moomoo11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:39AM (#32148607)
I mean I get your sentiment on one hand. On the other hand, I have people in my family who knew what life is like under European (British) imperialism and being considered sub-human.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by XorNot on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:39AM (#32148608)
> I really do not accept that, I want to have friends from wherever, go with whoever and do business with whom I deem appropriate without asking permission to anyone.

Ask yourself what Ukranian citizens would answer to that question.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:06AM (#32148773)
I am not talking about that. I agree with you about that. I have a good Ukranian friend also, even I visited his home some months back (in Spain). The topic is why everyone gets involved in things that are far and foreign to them.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by XorNot on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:56PM (#32160429)
You are arguing that a Ukranian invasion means you should get to continue doing business with Russia freely because how could it affect you?

You are arguing you should continue to help fund the war, the weapons, the rapes and murders by Russian forces while they invade Ukraine.

You might have dressed it up in pretty prose, but your position is "guess a little genocide is just something we have to live with".

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Monday July 25, 2022 @03:36AM (#32221557)
I mean there are people who know totally normal russian and ukranian citizens like you and I and no government is entitled to put is in a war and after that choose who we can do business with. Russia, Ukraine or whatever country is not a block of people you must be against. It is formed by each of its individuals. If you do not want to do business with them bc you consider it harmful, that is ok. But you cannot force everyone else under your vision. Why should you? With which right you go to make pressure to private business that are just selling clothes or milk-derived products?

To me it makes no sense, honestly.

[dead]
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:04AM (#32148765)
I am not for or against russians or ukranians. Think whatever but in a war you are going to see many disgusting things from both sides. It is like that.

I declare myself neutral and the last thing I wanted is my country to be involved in this stuff (and others).

Of course, at the same time I think that Russian invasion was stupid and a mistake. This is a power game and nothing else. I just want to live normal, not to get into unnecessary trouble. Diplomacy would have been better. And if diplomacy does not work, I do not know why Spain should be further involved. I can understand that countries close such as Latvia, Finland, Poland, etc. take a non-neutral position on this. But Spain? Seriously...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by jen20 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:13AM (#32148828)
> I am not for or against russians

Assuming you are actually German (based on your username), you really shouldn’t require a particularly deep history lesson to understand why Russia is a problem. Jesus fuck man, the brick line runs through the center of your own capital city.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by narag on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:23AM (#32149294)
Assuming you are actually German...

Germán is a name, equivalent to Germain, Armand or Herman.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:44PM (#32155302)
Thanks. :) Not from Germany in fact.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by jacquesm on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:13AM (#32148830)
> I declare myself neutral

Until it is your ass that's on the line I guess?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by germandiago on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:45PM (#32155323)
Actually I know what you mean, but on the other side of things, thinking that getting involved in absolutely every conflict is a good idea... I do not know, I do not see it as a good solution honestly.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by RektBoy on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:47AM (#32149051)
If you're Neutral, than you are enemy. Nice. Looks like you didn't learn a thing. GermanSS. (Yes this is a reference to Waffen-SS, if you forgot.)