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Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:41AM (#32150168)
No top player.

And many top players.

MAD, as insane as it may sound, actually works. Everyone being fearful of massive retaliatory strikes keeps everyone in line. You get all sorts of bad behavior when nations have no fear of massive retaliatory strikes.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:50AM (#32150228)
The world map has been mostly frozen the last few decades precisely because USA is the global hegemon and world police.

Regional powers (which is what we would devolve to) are demonstrating exactly what the world would look like without America running the show: conquest and genocide in Ukraine, saber rattling in the south china sea, genocide of the Kurds.

We don't have an interest in solving for all the world's ills, and we are the source of many.

But the world has been less stable and more dangerous in the past.

What you are espousing is a luxury belief.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:42AM (#32151292)
If you think the world is stable as a result of the US, you should think again. It is exactly the contrary. The US itself is involved in wars since basically its foundation. The reason you say this is because you probably live in the US or one of its rich close alies. Everyone else will tell you that life under US hegemony means constant wars, coups, and political instability.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:56AM (#32151498)
Could you give some examples? The US has certainly abused its power (notoriously, in the 60s and 70s at the height of the Cold War), but "constant" appears to be stretching historical fact to fit a narrative.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:13AM (#32151746)
Are you forgetting that the US has been actively involved in non-stop wars around the world for the last 20 years? And before these wars started, it was doing "special operations" in eastern Europe, parts of Asia and Africa? And in Latin America it never really stoped its coups, military dictatorships and the such, especially in central America. And then of course there was the "cold" war and all the crimes in South Asia...
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by snovv_crash on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:51AM (#32152350)
Look at the hundred years before that. Everyone was fighting, all the time, not just one country with roughly one skirmish (by historical standards) at any single point.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:39PM (#32154289)
You are all missing the point.

War is a constant.

It was in the past.

It is a constant today.

And it will be in the future.

All nations are, at heart, "evil" in this regard. Essentially, nations are just scaled up street gangs with more destructive weapons.

The only proven method of keeping these street gangs from getting too far out of hand, of keeping all our war at the level of low intensity conflict, is MAD. Nations behave only at the barrel of a gun. To argue that America is "evil" is as irrelevant as it is to argue that America is "good".

For instance, I know that all nations can be said to be "evil" at root, and "good" at root. Here's the thing though, do you think it matters to me if China is "evil" and "good"? Of course not, they're just a different street gang. The US has a responsibility to humanity to keep them in line. Should it matter to China that the US street gang is "evil" and "good"? No. They have a responsibility to humanity to keep the US in line.

In the age of weapons of mass destruction, only mutually assured destruction has ensured these street gangs don't come into conflict. Relying on sunshine and rainbows and unicorns that crap out skittles is nonsense. This is not a children's game of "good guys-bad guys". There are no good guys or bad guys. Only nations, (street gangs), pursuing interests. They are kept in line only at the barrel of a gun. Take that gun away and they will run rampant.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#32154873)
I mostly agree with you, except I don't believe that MAD is a sufficient deterrent, or that low level conflict is unlikely to evolve into large scale war.

The best way, in my mind to minimize conflict is through a global monopoly on violence, one street gang to rule them all

This is what the last 30 years have been

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:56PM (#32155501)
This is what the last 30 years have been

Only they haven't.

The reason the US and Russia haven't run rampant the last 30 years is because the US and Russia can blow each other away. So Russia satisfies itself with Georgia and now Ukraine. And the US satisfies itself with those nations in the MidEast region. Remove Russia, and the US would have been all over the yard. Remove the US, and Russia would have been all over the yard.

And now with the rise of China, mankind is even safer. Not only that, but more of mankind have begun to enjoy the benefits of safety. The US and Russia were perfectly willing to fight a proxy war in Korea 70 years ago. They wouldn't dare do that today. Why? The Chinese presence in any MAD calculations.

Today Africa is much safer, it is developing much faster. A large part of the reason for that is the presence of China. Now instead of proxy wars, the great powers compete to see who can deliver Africa the most undersea bandwidth for instance. This is a much better situation for Africans than the situation that existed when only the US and Russia were superpowers. And this situation exists because of MAD. It proves that an armed society is a polite society.

The US, China and Russia are all fulfilling their responsibility to keep the peace by maintaining lethal arsenals of weapons of mass destruction so that they are each confident in their own ability to destroy the others. And that is good for all of us "little people" in the world. Whether we are American, Chinese or Russian. (And even good for us if we are Korean, African, or from South America.)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:23PM (#32158173)
I agree. The result of N. Korea acquiring nuclear weapons was the cessation of the idea of direct war against the Korean regime. I believe if Iran already had nukes we wouldn't be talking about the possibility of war there, either.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:10PM (#32160058)
The difficult calculus with Iran is trying to decide if they're actually pious enough to immolate themselves to take out Israel. Or whether a group could come to power who might be.

North Korea is insane in its own way, but hereditary personality cults do have a history of acting in the interest of self-preservation.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @02:01PM (#32155576)
Russia specifically developed their "de-escalation" policy of tactical nuclear weapons use under MAD assumptions.

Basically, betting that there were scenarios where the US wouldn't risk escalation to nuclear war in response to a calibrated Russian tactical nuclear strike in a third party country, thus allowing Russian nuclear effects to nullify superior western precision weapons without consequence.

https://thebulletin.org/2022/03/russian-military-doctrine-ca...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by coliveira on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:20PM (#32158142)
> superior western precision weapons

At this point there is no support for the idea that US weapons have superior precision. The Russian campaign is showing the opposite.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by _kbh_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:41PM (#32161132)
Russian MLRS’s certainly fire rockets that have a much lower precision then modern US systems (HIMARS/M270).

Here’s a good video showing the difference.

https://mobile.twitter.com/revishvilig/status/15402647613292...

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:56PM (#32159965)
O_o

A) NATO's air campaign in the Kosovo War (1999) certainly scared the shit out of Russia.

B) That Russia is currently bombarding Ukrainian cities with repurposed surface to air missiles doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in their ability to produce sufficient quantities of precision missiles for even a moderate scale conflict.

C) The majority of Ukrainian platforms at this point still aren't Western, and thus incapable of firing NATO precision ordinance.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by throw0101a on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:40PM (#32154313)
> If you think the world is stable as a result of the US, you should think again.

"Stable" in some kind of Platonic absolute sense, or "more stable that things would have otherwise been"?

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by tuxie_ on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:13AM (#32150404)
It's sad but not surprising that you think that the US did not promote, finance, or execute dictatorships and all kinds of destabilizing tactics against democratically elected governments for the sole reason of not agreeing with their policies. They even sent agents to my country to teach the military how to torture civilians.

The only difference is that they were careful to not do it directly, or do it in secret. Exactly the same way they are doing in Ukraine now, where they avoid giving the weapons directly to Ukraine, but instead they use the well exercised muscle of influence.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by zaphar on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:55AM (#32150785)
Ukraine is a terrible example. Russia started that, not Ukraine or the US. Giving weapons and funding it would have been completely absent without Russian aggression.

Promoting a better way for countries to adopt, partnering with them in economic activity and education, and helping them to defend themselves when neighbors try to use aggression to oppose that partnership is a much better mechanism for bettering the world than outright war and conquering other nations.

Does the US do shady stuff that bites them later? Yes. Is the world overall better with the US as one of the biggest out there for now? Also yes. Both things can be true.

By all means shine a light on, and oppose the shady stuff but don't make the mistake of thinking that the world doesn't need a strong entity who can both promote and also defend better ways to govern.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by Msw242 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:18AM (#32151020)
Yeah, we do a bunch of fucked up shit, like fueling the civil war in Yemen, the banana wars, and much, much more.

We're less extractive than the alternative, and the US having an effective monopoly on violence has been a stabilizing force.

Europeans really don't deserve a voice in this whole conversation given that they rely entirely on the US for protection. Germany's decision to build Nord Stream 2 demonstrates how detached they are from realpolitik.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by mbg721 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:23AM (#32150483)
There are plenty of regional powers that aren't particularly violent or unstable; the traditional concern--regardless of whether it's true--isn't that the US itself would devolve into chaos, it's that by suddenly ceasing to be able to project force in other countries, it would leave power vacuums.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by trasz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:19AM (#32150454)
>what the world would look like without America running the show: conquest and genocide in Ukraine, saber rattling in the south china sea, genocide of the Kurds.

Meanwhile with America running the show: entire regions - South America and Middle East - largely destroyed, with tens of millions of victims.

America isn’t the “world police”, they are just the main bully.

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by arroz on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:53AM (#32151441)
How did the US destroy South America? And please don’t talk about military dictatorship that happened decades ago .-.

Middle East has also been invaded by Europe and Russia

China has been running concentration camps on middle eastern (for now the ones within their borders)

Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by the_only_law on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:54AM (#32151461)
Ah yes, if it happened in the past it had no relvance today.
Re:FCC: TikTok is unacceptable security risk and should be r... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:04AM (#32151599)
The strongest argument for the US destroying South America, aside from the obvious propping up of strong men, is probably training and supporting right-wing militias to combat communism.

The effect of their existence as a power base then cascading into politics, etc.

That said, most of South America's recent woes have generally been economic (Guatamala, Venezuela), and the rise of Chavez (and the US not directly acting against his movement for decades) undercuts the "US is responsible for what happens in South America" position.