Former Model S owner here. Tesla quality, for the prices they charge, is insulting. I had a Model S for 3 years, put about 20K miles on it (which means I wasn’t a “heavy” driver by any means) and it was rattling, had massive panel gaps in the body, and all kinds of little bits just starting to fall apart. The charger door wouldn’t stay closed and eventually broke due to coming open on the highway so many times. After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it.

Then there’s the service. I got an indicator on the massive screen telling me that the radiator needed service. I called the Service center and was told by two different people, “that’s not possible because our cars don’t have radiators.” I said, “look, I’m not the technician here, you are; but, I am reading you the message that the car has on the screen.” Finally got someone who acknowledged that, yes, Tesla’s do have radiators and I brought it in. When I picked it up, the Air Conditioning didn’t work. In the middle of Summer. I called them and told them and they told me there were no openings for service for 6 weeks. After arguing with the service manager for 20 minutes on the phone, he agreed to have me come in the next day and, sure enough, they’d forgotten to reconnect it when they were working on it.

Was it the worst car I’ve ever owned? Honestly, it might have been. When I factor in that it cost over $90K, it’s definitely the worst car purchase I’ve ever made.

> After just 20K miles, the car honestly felt like a car feels after you put 150K miles on it.

I put over 200k on my 2013 Corolla, and that car still felt new except for a plastic pin that broke the first week on the rear driver quarter panel. I was on a road trip with my wife from Houston to Vegas and heard a flapping while on the highway, I pulled off and saw the panel was loose, I pulled off at the next town, got some super glue from a pharmacy and a stick from the side of the road, and that held solid until I traded it in for $2500 off a Chevy Trax this year (we moved to Upstate NY a few years ago, and we now need the AWD).

I’ve been a Toyota fan for a long time. I’m not a super rich guy so it fits my style for having some reliable and affordable.

I’ve been tempted for Tesla many times. Sure being green is cool but the complexity of engineering puts me off.

Electric cars have less moving parts. They should be more reliable and well built than a gas guzzler but I couldn’t say that for Tesla. Too many bells and whistles for my need.

Comma.ai satisfies my hands off highway autonomous needs for <$1000 on my 3 year old RAV4 hybrid.

Just great value for money.

<3 cheap Toyotas. One time, I bought a ridiculously small 20-year-old Toyota "Truck" (that was the model name) for $5k and drove it coast-to-coast across the US, in the winter, twice, through parks and forests, with what turned out to be a far-too-heavy motorcycle on the back.

The only things that went wrong were a speeding ticket and an exploded tire after 5000 miles. In hindsight it was a stupid trip to take - the people at the tire shop in Arizona were split between laughing and looking very concernced - but that little truck kept my self-sabotage from turning into a disaster and made the whole thing a fun experience.

I had completely unrealistic expectations about what a car should be able to do, and it lived up to them. Even after the 200,000 miles that usually marks the end of a car's life.

In general, if you want to find reliable cars, look at the old models that you still see on the road. Those are the ones that'll last awhile on the cheap. I still see plenty of Toyotas, Hondas, and Chevies from the '80s puttering around, and it warms the cockles of my heart whenever I do. I get the feeling I would have had the same experience with an old S-10 or Ranger. I wish modern pickups came in smaller sizes...

For what it's worth, I have an almost identical experience. Build quality is not good, and every service-center visit leaves you feeling like they are stuffing the service centers with way more issues than the people there can handle. Even with all this, the drive feel of my MS is insane and the screen/app are lightyears ahead. I honestly enjoy driving again, even pre-pandemic with crazy traffic. Their offering is so good it outweighs the crappy support. If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately.

Side-note: service at Tesla used to be golden. When they first started, they all knew they were pricy cars and everyone expected some growing pains leading to QC issues. It was great - they would loan you a top-model performance tesla while your car was in the shop (great up-sell!!!), they were doing far more of their "mobile service" (super handy, they drive to you and fix the car where you are), and you would get one agent that called you almost daily with an update.

As they have expanded more towards mass market they have gone the way of google - trying to automate humans out of the loop. It's basically a miracle to talk to a human at a service center now, everything is "schedule it in-app where you get 200 characters to explain your issue, we send over an estimate, you can't call to discuss it either approve or don't, drop your car, use our SMS platform for 100% of communications because email might "violate your privacy" (read: leave a data trail), handle the fact that different agents get your SMS at different times and some have no idea what the history is, handle that agents now "have to reply to all messages before they leave" and you're getting hurried "here's my panicked update" messages at 11:30 at night.

I personally feel they missed an opportunity to offer "luxury service lanes" for folks buying the luxury line when they went mass market.

I rented a BMW (not a luxury model, the cheapest automatic available from Sixt in Denmark), and the experience was much better than any car I've driven before. The touch screen worked fine, and having a big map on the center console and a small map on the panel behind the steering wheel was really impressive to me. Adaptive cruise control, lane assist, and proximity warnings made driving much less stressful than it used to be.

But I also have owned a car in 12 years, have only rented 4 cars in that time, and borrowed a parent's car occasionally when visiting them, so I don't really know if BMW's work is really ahead of many others or if they're more standard features you see in all cars.

How much of that BMW will still be working after five years?

Personal anecdote: I'm still driving the 2011 BMW 335i that I bought in 2014. It now has 265,000+ miles.

The key with owning a BMW is to do all of the maintenance yourself. That brings the cost of ownership back down to planet Earth.

I've replaced the water pump twice, high pressure fuel pump once, and the radiator. Plus a few odds and ends.

If I had paid the dealer for this work, I'd be totally in the hole.

One thing I will give BMW is that they know how to design a chassis. The car has all of the original suspension components and the steering is still as tight as the day I got it. No clunking, no rattles, no bouncing, etc.

Did BMW learn a lot from the nine production years where their chassis cracked so badly that the wheel supports reliably tore away from the rear subframe? Or the control arms bearings that would disintegrate every 50k? The rear differential bushings and the GUIBO flex disc that both require regular replacement to prevent the car destroying itself?

Not to mention the little stuff, like the window regulators and sunroof self-destructing, the ignition tumbler corroding and disabling the car's internal bus so the lights freaked out, or the headlight mountings disintegrating.

As the owner of an E46 that I purchased used at 100k and now sits defunct at 155k I'm baffled by your comment. I'd fix everything on that car and four unrelated things would break the next month. "Preventive maintenance" wasn't oil changes and brake pads... it consisted of half-replacing major systems at regular intervals.

Maybe they just got their shit together on the newer models, but yeesh.

The E46 is pretty easy to work on, and the subframe thing they fixed for free (after some lengthy lawsuits). I took mine to 200k and never really had any big problems, just the usual stuff (DISA, water pump, oil filter housing leaks, a/c relay, one window regulator). I think the 325 might have had it worse though.

Or you could instead own a Toyota/Lexus that needs basically nothing except oil over 200k miles. Mine have been indestructible.

Everything. Why do you think it would not?

from what i understand they are somewhat notorious for being fickle / needing lots of maintenance. which is certainly the experience my father has had with his, haha. still loves it, though.

BMWs have taken a big leap forward in reliability since the E36 and E46.

Dang, this sounds like taking literally everything I hate about "the future", and doubling down on it. I just had a bad experience with a dealership where I thought my thorough explanation (including error codes) was sufficient to narrow down the issue, but they completely ignored anything I said and did their own thing, which ended up solving exactly nothing. I ended up getting the diagnostic fee waived and have now taken the vehicle to an independent shop, where I can speak 1:1 to the owner and actually have my input listened to and respected.

Speaking of hating the future, the all-digital, gigantic touchscreen interfaces terrify me.

I have a 2011 F150 lariat trim truck, and it is not only swanky on the inside, but isn't phased at all by hauling timber, logs or back woods dirt trails that smaller vehicles get stuck in.

One of my favorite features, though, is that there is NO touchscreen. Every control is a physical button or knob, and I can use any of them from touch and muscle memory alone.

I fully expect the truck to survive another 200k miles or so, but dread the day I have to get something newer.

> I can use any of them from touch and muscle memory alone

Also with gloves. Large parts of the planet may appreciate that.

Ha, I can't believe I forgot to mention that, especially with our winters. I guess I am even less prepared for the future than I thought :(

I regularly haul pipes, skis, boards, furniture, or other long and awkward objects that would destroy a touchscreen, or at least render it unusable for the journey.

Physical buttons are so much more durable.

It's very hard to destroy screen with protection, and it's super easy to destroy some tiny manual control e.g. anything related to air conditioning, tesla interior is minimalistic, no even air plastic fins, so if you have that stuff inside, model Y or 3 is the best choice for you :)

"Cracked button" really doesn't seem like a realistic issue. And they really don't fall off easily. You're free to have your preferences but the reality is still that most physical buttons are incomparably more durable than a touchscreen, especially a large one, especially if it still happens to be a consumer grade laptop screen. Simplicity has its benefits.

And if/when the buttons crack/fall-off there's a very good chance that you can fix it there and then with a drop of super-glue. Try that with fancy touchscreen...

I am sympathetic to your point; glasses can be very durable nowadays.

In this scenario, though, I would be most concerned with scratching the screen. That, And replacing a broken knob is surely cheaper than a gigantic touch screen should it be actually damaged.

You're joking, right? I'm not convinced any Tesla vehicle is a good choice for anyone, after seeing this album earlier: https://www.flickr.com/photos/136377865@N05/sets/72157658490...

That was scary to look at. The worrying part is they all look like new cars, many of them with low mileage. This doesn't look safe for anyone on the road.

Same boat. Trading in my fancy Chrysler Pacifica minivan for a Toyota Sequoia with physical AC knobs. Right now I have to wait for a computer to boot up, and then click to accept the terms and conditions. Every. Time.

I got a 2020 Pacifica - I don’t need to use the touchscreen to perform any essential tasks. The AC has physical buttons and a knob. I typically just ignore the screen when I drive and there’s “screen off” physical button.

Does your AC start instantly when you turn on the car? Mine doesn't.

On a hot day I actually start the car remotely and it automatically starts the AC a few minutes before I get into the car. Mine is a hybrid so I can do this even when it’s in my garage.

This is why I love Subaru. Their new cars have a touch screen, but it's mainly for display and advanced settings. Every important control (audio, lights, climate control, etc.) is analog

Not the 2020 outback. So disappointed as was looking to upgrade to a 2020 but the touchscreen everything made me leave it behind. Got an ascent instead because they had a deal.

Mazda is the only company doing it right these days.

Seconded. Just bought a Mazda 6 and one of the reasons was a sensible, buttons-first infotainment system. There's a knob in the center console that I can use to control everything. Besides that, the seat warmer/cooler, the AC, all the basic stuff is controlled by buttons.

But the kicker is that the infotainment system has a touchscreen, but the touch functionality is _disabled_ if the car is moving, because they think it's a hazard to have a person operate it while driving.

It also takes around 4-5 button taps to do things like turn off the heated seats. In most cars you can do that without having to take your eyes of the road

The AC controls are moved to the touchscreen in the new Outback.

You can turn off hitting with voice command in Tesla :)

Oh lord, the only UI with worse discoverability than a complex touchscreen has to be voice commands.

Not to mention it kinda ruins listening to a good song or the climax of an audio book if you have to suddenly yell out "SET AIR TO SEVENTY DEGREES"...

Yes, agreed 100%. I firmly that believe touch screens in cars are a safety hazard.

I think we're going to collectively realize that putting touch screens on everything is a mistake. It prevents you from being able to use an interface unless it has your attention / you are looking at it.

I agree that anything you are expected to need to adjust while driving should have a physical knob, button, or switch. That doesn't preclude you from having a touch screen to do other things though.

All the screens in cars I've tried have made me want to hammer a screwdriver through them because their software was so terrible.

Except for one: The Tesla screen. I'd still prefer no screen at all, but Tesla seems to hire software engineers who understand that human factors are a thing, and who seem to have an actual degree in computer science.

Mazda is lightyears ahead. Screen, yes. Touch, no.

Ha ha I totally feel that. Especially for a high-ticket item, give me a human to talk to!!

I can't stand it when support is crippled by "policy" - half the time I think they can't either.

Seems that these sorts of "policies" & practices strongly contradict Musk's semi-famous directives about crossing company boundaries to get things done, not respecting the chain of command [0,1]

This forces everyone into the same malfunctioning funnel, and it doesn't appear to work for the employees either.

Tons of respect for Musk's accomplishments, but I hope it doesn't go the way of Google which is famous for nonexistent customer support...

[0] "Anyone at Tesla can and should email/talk to anyone else according to what they think is the fastest way to solve a problem for the benefit of the whole company. You can talk to your manager's manager without his permission, you can talk directly to a VP in another dept, you can talk to me, you can talk to anyone without anyone else's permission. Moreover, you should consider yourself obligated to do so until the right thing happens. "

[1] https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/this-email-from-elon-musk-...

> If some other car company would step up to the plate and try to complete with similar tech but offering higher reliability, I would go for a test drive immediately.

VW's commitment to the electric market with ID3 and ID4 is a big deal, given that the success of their Golf/Touareg platforms. VW/Audi fit and finish are second to none, along with their size and ability to compete at the entry-level price point.

Also, something like a renault zoe is selling like hot cakes because it is a relative cheap and small car.

Also, it's a really simple car aswell (which is great in my opinion).

thanks for the pointer

My experience with service center has been exactly the same.

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad

I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment.

> - Tesla's false promises on Autopilot and Full Self Driving is a disgrace. They are at-least 20 years away from anything resembling close to L4, but still somehow siphon $8k from buyers with a false promise

Yeah, at this point it's almost Kickstarter-esque (for better, and worse).

> I think I've seen people advertising, literally, "Ship your brand new Tesla to me, and I'll get the body work/alignment perfect and ship it on to you" services. Not sure how real, or valid, but something of an indictment.

Hah! This kind of service exists for top-tier saxophones. Spend $6,000 or whatever for a Selmer Paris horn, then take it to a technician to "set up" the springs, pads, etc.

Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC.

> Nevertheless it is pretty sad when GM is knocking out junk with better body/panel QC.

You would think they'd have learned something about manufacturing mass market automobiles in 100 years of business...

The challenge with GM is to get them to care about a quality issue when there is otherwise $2 to be pocketed. Like, it's not that GM doesn't know how. The funny thing is to compare a vehicle where nobody would even expect GM to think about caring--maybe a Traverse or a Terrain (not a Corvette!)--and even that is better than Tesla's panel fit.

My hypothesis (not being an industrial engineer) is that most inputs to panel fit are more capital & process (one-time) than operational (per-car) expenses.

If GM developed a tight-tolerance process & machinery for the Corvette, it's probably a wash (capital cost vs standardization of process) to just apply it to their other lines, albeit relaxing the specs to increase yield.

I'm not saying GM has been innovating continuously, but my experience with long-lived processes is that instantaneous improvement is far harder than continual improvement (iterating fixes), due to the specific variables and lagging feedback in play.

Except for a few niche lines, GM forgot how to build quality cars in the 1970s. Quality hasn't been part of their DNA for a long, long time.

They optimized for profit. That's what post-1970s capitalist companies do.

Decrease quality, retain enough customers, make more profit.

>Hah! This kind of service exists for top-tier saxophones.

It's the same for TVs. Spend 2000€ for an OLED TV, then 300€ to have it calibrated.

Last I saw, the FSD suite did contain enough autonomy and safety features that it was the leading electronic safety packages on the market. Have other automakers caught up yet?

Not sure where you saw this, but it's a very small minority view among people who have a broad knowledge of ADASes.

Pretty much everyone's current car is the "best car they have ever driven" because cars get nicer with time and people generally get richer and able to afford nicer ones as they get older.

Whoah. Not my experience at all, and I suspect not a lot of other people’s experience either.

This is only true if you prioritize car ownership. I have a crappy car that isn’t fun to drive, and I’m happy with that.

But is it better than your previous car?

There are plenty of reasons one would switch from a car that they love driving to a car that is less enjoyable to drive, but still acceptable.

For example, switching from an expensive Audi car with fantastic handling to a mid-range Mazda diesel because it's much cheaper to run. Or because you live in a city and decide that you want a smaller car for easier parking.

Or because you want to switch to an EV, and can't afford a Tesla. I'm sure a Nissan Leaf is a lot less enjoyable to drive than many similarly priced ICE cars.

I've been considering the EV jump.

I know it'll be a downgrade from my current car, but my wife can't help but to stare longly at the empty HOV lane during rush hour.

In a more realistic and practical way, an EV will end up being the "faster" car after all.

Maybe? Depends.

But it is laughably far from the “best car [I] have ever driven" - which was the quote I was responding to, and which is the basis for the parents’ argument.

Most people I know make compromises as they get older due to having kids and needing space, or for the sake of safety, or because they overspent and were shy about making that mistake twice.

Out of the people I know, most say the best car they ever drove was usually something incredibly engaging and fun, but unreliable and terribly unsafe by modern standards.

My dad's 70, and my entire lifetime he's never shut up about how great the little british sports cars he drove in his 20s were. Most exciting car he's owned by a long-shot in my lifetime was a Saab 9-2 Aero.

I reckon there's two peaks, one when you're young and dumb enough to just go for what you want, and again when you're old and rich enough to buy what you want again. Between that everyone's hauling around kids or just trying to save money.

There might be a different envelope for people with company cars. My dad taught at a university, and drove a Fiesta, then went to work at IBM and had an Audi A4, then retired, and now drives a nondescript Honda with a cracked bumper.

Yeah I mean I used to drive a Mustang and got unsolicited compliments all the time. It was a fun car to drive. I have an Accord now. Its fine. its reliable. Its lacking a 1000 watt stereo and wont push me back into the seats, and while I do wax it as well, I dont get the pride of polishing something beautiful.

I wouldn't really call it better, just... different.

As long as you got it on your own Accord it's fine.

That only holds for people who never rent a car (or only rent cars as good as or worse than the car they own) and never drive a friend's car (or have friends with worse cars).

I don't think that encompasses "pretty much everyone".

Generally, i'd agree with you except my current experience...

I borrowed a 2019 Tesla 3 last summer from a friend while he was out of the country. Really fun, and I overall really enjoyed the electronics on it.

Afterward I had my finger over the buy button to order a Tesla, but after finding out that in my state, the insurance for someone with an entirely clean driving record in their 30's was still around $400/month, making the total cost including loan nearly $1000/month. I just didn't need that type of expense in my life right now, given I work from home (I made this decision Oct 2019, and in retrospect, wow how right I was).

This spring, I bought a 2005 Porsche Boxster instead for $15k. What a car! It's not as fast as the Tesla, but is way more fun to drive, turns more heads, and has held up significantly better than I can imagine a Tesla holding up. It doesn't have auto driving, but even on a 13 hours road trip you want to drive it the entire time. More comfortable in every regard, with a much better suspension too!

Yep, buy interesting used cars - they're a much better deal, especially if you can take the time to wait for a good deal rather than needing to buy a car right now...

Umm, I had an X5 and a Hyundai Sonata before that. Was definitely not the best car I have driven

That covers roughly how many decades of cars and redesigns of each of those models?

i don't pretend that the plural of anecdote is data, but i briefly owned an aston martin db9 convertible (my dream car), and a tesla model s p90dl. after a few weeks of every day waking up, looking at two sets of keys, and picking the tesla, i decided to sell the aston.

oops not that anyone cares but i realize my comment might be misleading. i owned the aston for years, and loved that car more than anything, but once i bought the tesla i owned both for a few weeks, then decided to sell the aston because the tesla was so superior (for me).

new, shiny

While I’ve enjoyed my own time with an Aston (likewise my Alfa 4C), they fail on many of the same quality and reliability axes that Tesla do. So I’m not sure your experience is that different from OP.

Unless you’re the type of person who test-drives cars you can’t afford, just for the experience of it; and then ends up buying something cheaper that is, by comparison, full of compromises.

They call that joy riding.

My brother worked at a car dealership a few years ago. He'd sometimes have people driving some 20+ year old economy car asking to test drive a Nissan GT-R. When he told them they would have to run a credit check before even doing the test drive, the customers changed their mind.

Did he perhaps lose a couple possibly genuine sales? Maybe, but likely not.

Heck, I wanted to create an appointment to test drive a Subaru BRZ and I had to put down a $500 deposit to "reserve the car so they don't sell it before then", which would have been 100% refundable if I chose not to buy the car. I did end up buying the car, but they never charged a deposit at all. My brother said that they probably never even actually recorded my credit card number anywhere, and the supposed requirement for a deposit exists purely to eliminate joy riders.

What? My 2004 Toyota Tundra remained the best vehicle for me, until my Tesla.

I also miss my 1974 Datsun 240z. What a cool car that was.

Not even close. "Best" has lots of dimensions, though: It depends on what you mean, and that changes which car is "best" quite a bit:

Fastest: The one I own now, a Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 (the one with the 350HP supercharged AMG motor.) Yeah, a Chrysler sports car is weird. Other than raw power/speed (and styling, which I love, but is admittedly polarizing), it's not the best car I've owned, but it's very good in most ways, fun to drive, and suits me. I like it enough that this is my second one, after the first got totalled a few years ago. Impossible to nap in at a rest area on a road trip, though.

Coolest: I owned a Ferrari Dino 308gt4 for 25 years, and it was my daily driver for nearly 10 years. Italian cars are an illness, but a fun one. Unless you're rich (I'm not) you need to be able to wrench most maintenance and repairs yourself, and need a good non-dealer mechanic to pick up what you can't. Not really that fast, but everyone thinks it is. Traded a year-old RX-7 and $1500 for it in 1988. If you're willing to put up with poor build quality, go buy an old Italian car - it'll be way cooler than a Tesla.

Most fun: Fiat X1/9. Tiny little targa that really is a baby Ferrari - owning this car first saved me tons by recognizing many Ferrari parts were identical to Fiat parts with the decimal point moved over. (e.g.: identical thermostat: $8 Fiat part, $80 Ferrari part!) Proof a car doesn't have to be fast to be fun, but I eventually added a stroker crank and big-valve heads with dual Webers anyway. Bought for $1500 when I was in college and taught me enough about Italian cars to make buying the Ferrari possible.

Best at speed: '91 Alfa Romeo 164S - the big 4-door sedan. The S is not just a badge - probably a third of the car is different. That's fine until you needed parts shipped from Italy b/c they didn't stock them in the US. Wonderful car, though. Definitely the best-looking motor I've owned, with all those polished aluminum intake runners like a nest of metal snakes on top. The first time I drove it on the Houston Tollway, it felt like I was going about 80, but my eyes disagreed - I looked down at the speedo and saw 120!). Really nice family road trip car.

Most reliable: Chrysler again - 1992 Le Baron 4-door with the beautiful jewel-like Mitsubishi 3.0 V-6. Picked it up as a reliable solid car for my wife when our second was born (killer deal, $2500 under book), and it was without question the most reliable car we've ever owned. It wasn't exciting, but was such a good car that we wound up keeping it for many years longer than we'd planned. We put about 130K on the car with pretty much nothing but brakes and oil changes.

Best quirky car: '87 Merkur Xr4Ti. Bought new for my wife. Fun, roomy (absolutely amazing what will fit in the hatch with the seats folded down), quick, comfortable. Would have kept this one much longer if a boneheaded mechanic hadn't zapped the electrical system. Ain't nobody got time for electrical demons!

Most disappointing: Oldsmobile Aurora. Beautiful car, wonderful motor. Really heavy though, and despite handling pretty well, it couldn't hide that weight. Seats looked nice, but were impossible to get comfortable in. Mileage was barely better than the Ferrari. Had minor electrical demons from near-new. Wanted to like it a lot more, but didn't keep it too long.

Best all-around: Strange to be typing this, but 2007 Chrysler Pacifica (crossover, not the newer minivan). Bought new for my wife at only $2000 more than a good used one, but with a much-improved engine, nicer options, and an unlimited powertrain warranty, which was a good thing, as it ate transmissions every 2-3 years. Without question the best thought-out car we've ever owned. It does everything, and does it well. Surprisingly quick with the big 4.0 V6, roomy (originally planned to get a trailer hitch to help kids move back and forth to college, but never needed it, since everything fits inside), comfortable (the best roadtrip car ever!), stable at speed (will cruise all day at 100-120 mph (not really that fast on many Texas highways), amazing brakes, and freakishly good gas mileage (36 @ 80mph with the first transmission, 30-32 with later ones). You don't expect it, but it's really nice to drive. Other than the transmission problems (actually caused by motor mount failures), the car was dead reliable. Sadly totalled by a Jeep-driving "wench with a winch" rear-ending us at a stoplight.

So yeah, we've had some weird cars, but quirky can be fun. Counting the kids' cars, we've also had a Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Isuzu, Ford, Hyundai, Saturn (probably worst overall), and Plymouth/Mitsubishi, but although almost all of them were good, most aren't really standouts for the "best" list. (Though the Maxima, RX-7 Turbo , and Conquest come close.)

Maybe we'll pick up an off-lease Stelvio Quadrifoglio or Trackhawk in a few years, who knows? More likely one of those than a Tesla...

> Oldsmobile Aurora. Beautiful car

I knew these types of cars must appeal to some people but i've never "met" anyone who likes\loves the design

Good point.

> - Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven. It is awesome, and I would recommend anyone in a heartbeat

I feel like this car has been hyped up so much that once I had the chance to drive it I was massively disappointed.

Honestly, it depends on what other cars you have already driven. Many people who buy model 3 don’t come from higher priced luxury cars. Model 3 is better than bmw 3 series in driving, but not as good as their m3

A Model 3 SR+ with the towing hook costs 50.000 EUR in Austria (where I live). For that money I can buy a lot of other car.

Yeah, I only got it because I have 2.5 hrs of commute and I was getting frustrated driving into the sun both ways in stop and go traffic

How did a Tesla fix that?

Autopilot. Just Stay in your lane, and forget about break/accelerator dance. It may extend your commute by 5 or 10 minutes, but man, it is a massive help. Other cars have some limited capabilities like this, but they don't seem to drive the car with the same confidence, IMO. Tesla's version drives through curves with ease, and for the most part, i only leave a finger on the steering, just in case.

Interestingly Tesla’s autopilot is quite bad at stop and go traffic here because it does not know how to drive in a mandatory emergency corridor here. So you’re left with cruise control.

Berlin factory will cut the prices :)

How would, say, the base model 3 compare against a 2 year old base model C or E class? Or the same 2 yeah old Lexus Es350 or Volvo S90? All sitting comfortably in the base model 3's $30k price range. I've heard the driving experience is definitely better but I have serious doubts that the quality or fit and finish would match.

It doesn’t measure up if you want Luxury or ride comfort. OTOH it excels in commuter traffic and leaving everyone else in the rear view mirror at the lights ;)

Really? Because my wife’s Model Y is way more fun to drive than my BMW M3.

I wouldn't describe the model Y as fun to drive. It's comfortable and spacious but it's nowhere near a sportscar.

You should compare it to a BMW X6 or 6 GT, both of which are also not sportscars but still on the sporty end of the SUV like spectrum.

If you want to compare a fun to drive Tesla with a BMW I would take the Model S and the M5, both are large comfortable saloons designed to be fast.

I envy your wife then ;)

You're almost certainly not the target demographic for an M3.

Bwahahah. Well, at least this example of gatekeeping can't hold a candle to Porsche drivers.

I mean, it's not gatekeeping, I'm not saying you can't enjoy it. But the M3 is meant for people that want performance, handling, and mechanical experience.

If you enjoy the Model Y more than the M3, then you prefer it to a car that has much higher cornering performance, much higher acceleration from the 0-60 all the way to 155mph, and of course the M3 is a much rawer experience.

If you don't, that's fine, it's just that the M3 wasn't made for you.

Model y performance and especially model 3 performance is faster then M3 that’s why bmw sales are crashing, they lost the performance mojo

The Model Y performance is 0.2 seconds faster to 60, and slower in every single other performance metric, as well as has pretty low range. I wouldn't call it faster than the M3, unless all you care about it is pulls in a straight line, which is indicative of not really being the target market for an M3.

As for the Model 3 performance, I agree.

Same. The car was good but not that good. The autopilot was useless with all the dangerous phantom breaking.

If you think owning one is a nightmare, try working on them. I work on large truck engines for a living, but know a small shop about 35 miles down the road that claims to be an "authorized" Tesla service center...one of the few in the midwest.

while other automotive manufacturers have robust supply chains and networks, tesla doesnt. most of your parts (bearings, panels, drivetrain) all come from California and only from the factory. It means they can save a ton of money by foregoing a traditional network but in return, repair shops are often on the hook for weeks or months of outstanding invoices waiting for parts, and have to gingerly explain to customers why their new model X will take 4 weeks to get the window fixed.

This isnt to say Tesla uses a ton of custom parts! chargers and electronics are all rebranded (or stock) webasto. parts for the brakes are Ensco or industry-standard (mexican) forged parts. you can work on these yourself but god in heaven help you if Tesla finds out you didnt go through them. In some cases parts for the car are significantly better in the aftermarket. You can improve steering and handling significantly if you eschew Elons pet rebranded control arms.

From what Ive heard, be very careful with the giant television in the center console. repair parts (if youre not from the golden coast) can take months, installation or replacement is a bear, and the controller for the unit has to be shipped back to Tesla before they will even send a new one.

Remember how much trouble Tesla had getting the Model 3 production line going. They were operating out of a tent next to the plant at one point. Of course they have build quality problems.

Musk's solution to Tesla being unable to make "Full Self Driving" work is to redefine "Full Self Driving" as a slightly better driver assistance system and blame regulators.[1]

[1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121787_tesla-full-self...

In light of:

> Tesla's build quality is quite bad

> Model 3 is the BEST car I have ever driven

I feel compelled to ask, what else have you driven?

The model 3 is among the best driving cars. It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box.

Tesla cars also have far more trunk space and highest in class safety ratings. They also have an 'appealing' design which includes the titular panoramic roof.

Now the car is unpolished across the board. Be that manufacturing, interior materials or general care for UX. But those things matter far more to enthusiasts. Your average family owner cares more about all of Tesla's positives.

If Tesla can provide good customer service and aftermarket support, (which it has historically been terrible at) then I can see the other shortcomings not being deal breakers at all.

Now my dream car will stay the Mazda 3 2021. But, I am a certain type of weird.

> Now the car is unpolished across the board. Be that manufacturing, interior materials or general care for UX. But those things matter far more to enthusiasts. Your average family owner cares more about all of Tesla's positives.

This actually seems kind of backwards to me? Car enthusiasts -- at least the way I think of "car enthusiast" -- are the ones who prioritize acceleration, speed and handling to a point where they're forgiving, at least to a point, of other flaws. Tesla also has a lot of tech enthusiast appeal, of course, and their best target market is right at the center of that Venn diagram.

However, I'd think "average family owners" are the kinds of folks who are way more likely to think that if they spent $60,000+ on a new car, that car should be as close to problem-free, and even maintenance-free, as realistically possible. They're not prioritizing for under 4-second 0–60 speeds. I mean, they'll also love the high safety ratings and trunk space, but if the car gets a reputation for reliability problems, they're going to remember there's a Volvo dealer next door.

Tesla's problems generally aren't much about reliability, they're stuff like panel gaps and bad paint, which are in the enthusiast realm. The OP here is really an extreme example.

> is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground,

I think you meant "it has a low center of gravity and so sticks to the ground". It's that, not pure weight - otherwise trucks would dominate F1 circuits.

In the early days of auto racing there were maximum weight limits--it was thought that more weight -> bigger engine -> faster car. Of course now things are just the opposite, to the point that race winners hope to collect enough loose bits of rubber ("marbles") to their super-sticky tires from the track during the victory lap to avoid penalty...

Collecting rubber isn’t about adding weight. The teams want to mask the exact tyre wear amount/patterns, which they do by covering the surface with scraps.

<edit> Actually this seems less clear cut than I thought. I'd heard from David Coulthard's commentary that the reason for picking up was to cover the wear from other teams' eyes. A quick search suggests many people believe it's to do with weight. The weight explanation seems odd, since if the officials think the tyres are masking the true weight of the car, they can demand a different set are used for the weigh-in, but I can't find an authorative source either way.

So it may be to do with weight, or it may be to do with hiding tyre wear. </edit>

Yep. I most certainly did.

I got a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering and worked a full-time job building cars for a bit, and I still wrote down a line that sounds as stupid as it does.

But damn, I did not expect that line to draw as much attention as it did down the thread. Such is life.

When compared to dimensionally similar (but certainly not similarly priced!) sedans, the Model 3 ranks well but doesn't really have more cargo space.

Dimensions are in cubic feet.

BMW 330: 17

Kia Forte: 15.3

Honda Civic (sedan): 15.1

Telsa Model 3: 15.0 (combined front and rear trunk)

Hyundai Elantra: 14.4

Volkswagen Jetta: 14.1

Mercedes CLA-250: 13.1

Toyota Corolla: 13.1

Audi A3: 12.3

Subaru WRX: 12

No doubt Tesla vehicles have amazing crash ratings, they've really put together some structurally sound vehicles.

I am genuinely surprised.

I could've sweared the Model 3 was a bigger than that.

> It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground, and they provide smooth power across all speed ranges, due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box.

What about handling in corners, etc., ride comfort? Genuinely curious. I have driven a (2016?) Model S a few times, and wasn't hugely impressed with the handling (beyond as you same, the very valid straight line acceleration and linear-ish power curve), compared to my Audi, or Jaguar.

The model 3 handles way better than the Model S, except for (probably) the not yet released model S Plaid (due next year).

The new 2020 model S handles a lot better than the older models, but is still quite big and boaty compared to the model 3, at least assuming that you want a "drivers car".

That said, I love driving my model S, it's quite comfortable, and rock solid for "normal" driving.

Model 3 is more nimble than the S. But it also feels cheaper and less solid. Depends on what you like.

i have a model 3 performance and the suspension tune that came from the factory is worse than any performance car i have driven—rear seat passengers actually complain if you do more than highway cruising or drive somewhere with perfect asphalt. i am used to suspensions being stiff, but this one just bounces. tesla considers it within spec.

that said, the feeling behind the wheel is completely addicting. i cannot go back to noninstantaneous peak torque. this is pretty lizard brain of me, performance is more than acceleration, but pinning your head against the seat is a ton of fun and when i purchased the c8 hadn’t come out so there wasn’t another 3 second to 60 option in this price bracket.

agree with everything upthread about build quality issues, UX is not great, hope you don’t live somewhere that it rains hard because the fastest setting on the wipers is way too slow, etc etc. still fun as hell.

>What about handling in corners, etc., ride comfort

Drives a lot like a higher end mercedes, E-class/CLS feel. Smooth, powerful, good handling but not a tight suspension. My previous BMWs had better handling with better suspensions. Still, when comparing the Model 3 to similar ICE vehicles, the Tesla was hands down a better buy in my opinion.

Its a joy in the corners. The batteries have all the weight, and that weight is at the center of the car, and you get a car that spins like a top(when you want to). My last accord (2015) had better ride quality. I was honestly very impressed with autopilot(works for commuter traffic very well) and handling..

> is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground

That's... that's not how cars work.

(I get that you're trying to be funny. That's OK.)

Nevertheless: He means that electric cars have a "low center of gravity" which matters immensely in collision scenarios.

See this short video of a Model X in a capsizing test: https://twitter.com/ValaAfshar/status/1310623334367989761?s=...

"Low CoG" and "Heavy" are not at all the same thing, and frankly I've known plenty of people in meatspace who genuinely thought "moar heavy === better grip", so I may be over-sensitive to this particular falsehood.

The model 3 performance is great at straight line but stock suspension isn’t fun to around tight corners. The way it rebounds on road imperfection at highspeed is not confident inspiring. The mass also resists willingness to turn in. Unless I manhandle it I always run wide around corner.

You always run wide unless you manhandle it? Are you talking about city driving or track racing??

I had a 2008 Mazda 3, and that car was amazing. Cheap and absolutely a blast to drive, particularly if you shifted gears yourself.

I'm sure that many reading this comment will scoff. However, that car was living proof of one of my favorite truisms when it comes to driving cars in everyday traffic:

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."

That Mazda was not powerful by any means, but it rode low and handled like a sports car. Fun to toss around.

> The model 3 is among the best driving cars. It accelerates very fast, is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground....

This is nonsensical. Nobody ever said "How do we make this drive better? I know! Let's make it heavier!"

More mass makes acceleration worse, cornering dynamics worse, ride quality worse and braking worse. There are literally no upsides.

It's very good at certain things, but let's step outside of the reality distortion field for a moment...

This. The extra mass is done about as well as it can be because it's all at the bottom of a car but jerk the wheel left and right it becomes instantly obvious that it's not a light car.

>ride quality worse

I think you are wrong here, in this exact point. More mass in the car frame makes ride quality better: you can have more weight in wheels (unsuspended mass) or more responsive suspension.

More mass means more inertia, which means you get more body roll and heave. To counter this, you need to compromise on your suspension design (essentially make it stiffer) to stop the thing flopping about.

There is some nuance here though: more mass does potentially give you options in lowering the centre of gravity which can certainly help. Putting the batteries in the lowest point is a smart design move from this point of view.

In general, I'm not saying you can't make a heavy car have a good ride quality, I'm saying you can make it ride well in spite of the extra mass it has to deal with. Adding more mass doesn't magically let you have a better ride quality.

> This is nonsensical. Nobody ever said "How do we make this drive better? I know! Let's make it heavier!"

It's not well phrased, but it is better for the vehicle, if the mass is the same, just closer to the ground. Center of mass is lower down.

Electric cars have this due to the big heavy "sled" of batteries at the bottom of the vehicle.

> is incredibly heavy and so sticks to the ground

This is the first time I've ever heard people saying "heavy" as a pro. Any car is heavy in a sense of staying firmly on the ground. The rest is steering, suspension, and rubber; a tiny cheap Fiesta ST on good tires and dry tarmac handles like it's on rails. It'll go around a corner much more eagerly though, being about 60% lighter than a model 3.

Not quite. Low center of gravity is key.

"In addition to its near 50/50 weight distribution, Model 3 was also designed with an extremely low polar moment of inertia, which means that its heaviest components are located closer to the car’s center of gravity.

Even though Model 3 has no engine, its performance is similar to what’s described as a “mid-engine car” due to its centered battery pack (the heaviest component of the car) and the fact that Model 3’s rear motor is placed slightly in front of the rear axle rather than behind it.

Not only does this architecture add to the overall agility and handling of the car, it also improves the capability of stability control by minimizing rotational kinetic energy."

Source: https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury...

This also has some safety benefits such as low rollover risk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L24xzJkCGdk

I think that Tesla's PR department is not a right source for judgement.

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/95pv46ue63rt - Tesla Model 3 Performance does not win big over BMW M3.

Well, considering the Model 3 Performance starts at $50k and the M3 at $70k, winning at all is impressive. I agree with the OP, there are a lot of problems with the Model 3, but most serious automotive journalists have concluded it drives incredibly well.

BMW did not get over $2 billion in subsidies from government. That may explain price difference.

You're arguments, are erroneous and are so out of topic.

Let's do a bit of fact checking on this false narrative. Having worked in government. Most if not all financial transactions records are public record and can easily be traced.

The only known grant(call it subsidy if you want) that Tesla got from the government is a loan from the Department of Energy.

"In January 2010, the Department of Energy issued a $465 million loan to Tesla Motors" Source: https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla

The loan was to buy the old Toyata/GM NUMMI plant. That single plant now hires thousands of workers and produce thousands of electric vehicles a month. That DOE loan was PAID off 10 years early PLUS interest. Therefore, the American taxpayers made money and cemented the U.S. as a leader in EV market share.

Source:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-doe/electric-carmak...

Can you provide the rest of the $1.5B you're claiming? I can already predict you will link the Business Insider and L.A. Times articles. Both of which are inaccurate. They also did not provide sources where they got those numbers from.

Before you mention the tax breaks for the Giga Factory in Nevada. This has been a common thing for states to do. So that they can entice companies to build infrastructure. Because that can end up bringing in tax revenue in the long run. BMW have gotten hundreds of millions as well in just South Carolina alone. So that point is moot:

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/25-years-ago-bmw-opened-shop...

https://www.dw.com/en/mexican-subsidies-for-bmw-under-fire/a...

Perhaps from this: 200k cars sold * $7500 tax credit (+ the cars sold during the phase out, perhaps another 100k maybe at an average of $2500)

Such credits are intended to go completely to consumers, but as many government programs have unintended consequences, or perhaps unadvertised effects, the producer just charges more for the item because they know the consumer is willing to spend more knowing they'll get the tax credit, only if they buy that item. Tesla even factored the credit into the price they showed on their website, which many complained was false advertising as it was very possible not to have $7500 in tax liability, but the vast majority did.

It became obvious that Tesla captured a substantial portion of the credit when they lowered the prices every time the tax credit dropped, meeting the people who "lost out" on the credit half way. They had quite a bit of room in their margins to attract new buyers with lower prices. Maybe not $1.5B of margin from the credits, but definitely not $0.

Bad spin. He claims the price is lower because of the “subsidies”. Which is opposite of what you’re implying.

Not only that your logic is flawed, the math also doesn’t check out. Why? Not everyone who were the first 200k early adopters got the credit. Because you would have to owed the tax liability. Hence it’s called a tax credit and not refund.

Moreover, if we use the logic you’re claiming. Then BMW has benefited from it too! Since they sell the i3 EV. Same with other manufacturers that offer BEVs. Like Chevy, Nissan, Audi and Jaguar etc.

When it comes to track times and races. A win is a win. That is an absolute fact.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgxie8/electri...

It's also funny how you claim it's PR. When it's actually physics at work when it comes to low center of gravity.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/centre_of_gravity.html

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age11-14/Mechanics/Statics/te...

The quote about "exceptional ride due to lower center of gravity and essentially middle engine design" was taken from Tesla PR in the comment I've replied to.

The 0-100km/h times for M3 and Model 3 is 3.9 and 3.2 seconds respectively and, essentially, 20%. The difference in peak torque (helps in acceleration out of corners) is smaller, 550 N/m and 639 N/m, about 11%. Power (helps at high speed) difference also less - 317kW and 340kW, yet Tesla win here too. Model 3 is even slightly wider (2cm, about 1% wider), which should help in track too. And after all that, a whopping 0.1s of win.

Tesla borked their very first Roadster, despite the fact that they had to provide only drivetrain to it and everything else was done by Lotus. The analysis above suggests that they are still do not get driving as opposed to drag racing.

> "exceptional ride due to lower center of gravity and essentially middle engine design"

That is a factual statement! Let me ask you this. Have you driven a decent mid-engine sports car like a Porsche 718 Boxster and a Tesla Model 3 performance? I have. They both handle quite well.

>The 0-100km/h times for M3 and Model 3 is 3.9 and 3.2 seconds respectively and, essentially, 20%. The difference in peak torque (helps in acceleration out of corners) is smaller, 550 N/m and 639 N/m, about 11%. Power (helps at high speed) difference also less - 317kW and 340kW, yet Tesla win here too. Model 3 is even slightly wider (2cm, about 1% wider), which should help in track too. And after all that, a whopping 0.1s of win.

Facts are facts, you can't spin it to suit your narrative. The Model 3 won while being heavier and costing significantly less is impressive. That was also prior to track mode being released and the new high performance package.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXyEgl9rFN4

> Tesla borked their very first Roadster, despite the fact that they had to provide only drivetrain to it and everything else was done by Lotus.

Do you have a background in automotive engineering? Elon Musk and the Tesla engineers said on many occasions, that the original Roadster only had about 20% original parts after they were done with the conversion. They also said that it would have been easier to start from scratch had they known the amount of hard work that had to be done.

> The analysis above suggests that they are still do not get driving as opposed to drag racing.

Terrible analysis. Randy Pobst (look him up) who is well respected in racing would tell you otherwise: https://youtu.be/aywleQX5lyA?t=202

Unplugged Performance Street Tuned Model 3 Beats McLaren F1 - Time Attack at Tsukuba Circuit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2dustv6utY

Tesla Model 3 prevails with two hill climb victories after Pikes Peak crash

https://thedriven.io/2020/09/01/tesla-model-3-prevails-with-...

Tesla Model 3 Performance Tire Rack Hot Lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgCf4aos0ZY

Randy Pobst Pikes Peak Hill Climb 2020 (Unplugged Performance Tesla Run)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvZMwiwnLVg

Pikes Peak Unplugged Performance Tesla Day 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q23I3BywBAA

Heavy is the wrong way to describe it. What the Model 3 has is a very low center of gravity and low moment of inertia due to the low and centered battery pack.

> due to torque being provided directly at the wheels and the lack of a gear box.

All Tesla's have gearboxes[1], sometimes to the surprise of the owner when they learn they need their transmission oil changed after thinking they've been driving a car that doesn't need any oil.

[1]: https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1051911793373638661

There is rumor(leaked video) of an AWD speed 3 coming. Both my wife and I like the 3.

I’ve owned:

Honda Accord

Honda Fit

Toyota Camry

BMW X3

BMW X6

Model 3

The driving experience is very nice, but I think my next car is going to be either a Porsche Taycan or another BMW SUV but I do like electric cars. I love not going to a gas station to fill up every week.

I don’t think I will get another Tesla. I think most electric cars will drive similar to the Tesla in 2 years, and what I’m looking for is a more solid, luxurious feel to the interior. The Model 3 interior feels very cheap and plastic vs BMW that feels nice. I hate the all-screen experience of the Model 3. The X6 was probably the best driving experience I’ve had and I miss it. I also miss knowing I can get in the X6 and drive anywhere in North America without thinking too deeply about it. I would have driven my family to Canada for a few months during the pandemic but we didn’t have a car that would reliably take us that distance from SF.

Oh man, I had two BMWs before the Tesla. I still have PTSD from them. I remember that my X3 map was obsolete the day I bought the car and they offered CD based upgrades for $$. I found iDrive to be a terrible experience, where mundane things like entering an address was a nightmare. Also, the steering feel had been neutered down significantly.

+1 on the steering feel. I owned 2008 328i RWD and steering feel... well, it felt 100% mechanical and heavy. Not for everyone, but I loved it and I'm glad I had a chance to drive the last good 'pure' 3 series.

The maps are terrible. I used my phone. I prefer Apple CarPlay over anything that any car manufacturer has. And even that isn’t great but it’s usable.

I thought the border was and is still closed to drive across unless you are on essential business or are Canadian returning home?

Apparently you can fly though?

I have driven a ton of cars. I used to be a consultant so I would rent a car every week. And because of my status at Hertz would often get upgraded. I once managed to rent a Jaguar F10. I also owned two BMWs, VW, Honda etc

I have test drove the S,3,X and while the power was pretty neat, the build quality is a deal breaker for me after having both MB & Porsche. I am waiting for them to get that sorted out before I buy one. We have 2 Porsches now which are fantastic. I am committed to not buying another gas powered car at this point so I am looking forward to the other manufactures catching up with Tesla on their BEV offerings.

As a history - old 1960s Mustang, 1990s Dodge, 1990s Pontiac, 2000s MB ML AMG, 2000s Ford(s), 1990s Jaguar, 2000s Suzuki, 2000s Honda(s) (I loved the Element. Great car with small kids - if they made a new one I would buy it!), 2010s MB C-Class, 2010s Porsche(s). Hum. I am missing something...oh well.

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad

You can blame today's rushed run-fast-break-things work culture that push engineers and line workers to their limits. Especially true of what I know from people that work/have worked at Tesla.

I still love and very much support what Elon is doing with SpaceX, but Tesla seems to be this weird company with one foot in amazing and another foot in disaster. It's like the worst best car company at the same time.

I have heard many, many Tesla owners complain about build quality, but others say it's fine. It appears to be hit or miss, which is typical for a poorly optimized manufacturing process. Some cars come off the line in good shape and others have ridiculous problems or bad panel alignment, etc. Tesla's support is also apparently a fucking disaster, which is a common pattern with Silicon Valley companies... even large and cash-flush ones like Apple and Google. SV does not do support or customer service after the purchase.

Elon's behavior on Twitter is nuts and makes me concerned about him. His COVID nonsense is the worst so far. Hopefully he holds it together long enough for Starship to be fully operational before he completely loses his mind.

Model Y owner, totally agree, quality is I would say ok in my case. I'm New Yorker, and the way people drive here, it's like they're not even close , don't spent those $8k. For me that package partially was cool for smart summon, but I need real efforts even to pull my car out of home driveway which is narrow yeah, but totally doable by human, nothing hard...

Can you tell us what you love about the Model 3 that makes up for all the bad?

it'm not OP but i can tell you what i love about my model s. (coming from an aston martin db7 convertible).

it's the quickest car i've ever driven, by far. instant acceleration.

it's better than the day i bought it. my car has learned to do a lot of things through software updates. my aston had a nav system that was obsolete the day i bought it (new), and criminally dinosaur-land by the time i sold it.

hands-down best nav system of any car i've ever been in, and that's something you use with every drive.

hands-down best infotainment system. i have tunein, podcasts, radio, bluetooth, all on a giant screen that makes it super easy to pick entertainment while driving.

autopilot rocks, especially on highways. driving from florida to boston and back within a week was really no big deal. no way i could have done that in any of my previous cars without being exhausted.

it's surprisingly large for a car that's so stupidly quick. it fits five adults, plus a giant trunk in the back and a small trunk in the front. 0-60 faster than you want or need.

convenience is off the charts. you get to the destination and you just leave the car. it takes car of turning itself off, turning off the lights, and locking the doors. every time i rent a car now i am reminded just how many "things" you have to do each time you enter/exit. easier to not have to think about it.

it's got remote control. i can set the climate, make the car move, or trigger my garage door to open all from my phone. i can also track it when i park it via valet.

speaking of valet, it has valet mode, so when i drop it off the car's acceleration and top speed is limited, and the glovebox and frunk can't be opened.

i never have to stop at a gas station because it charges at home. so i always have a full "tank". it's surprising how awesome this is.

the list goes on... it's just a really phenomenal car.

Navigation and entertainment are moot points IMO. Practically every care has android auto/carplay these days.

True but they do not integrate with the car like the build in navigation.

The only place you see the instructions are on the phone itself or the display of the car. The build in shows the next instructions within the cockpit & HUD.

It has no access to the wheels, and in tunnels the GPS will simply not work where as the build in sort of does.

The build in depends way less on healthy Internet access (yes there are parts of Europe that I drive though with cripple G2 at best).

Mind you, I SWEAR by Google maps for driving (in Europe) since it is so current and predicts / reroutes better then anything else I've ever used.

Paying major money for updates of the build in also is a real pain.

not really. a big part of the experience is the 17" monitor

I think last two points are contradictory because Tesla optimised interior design for self driving - they skipped out on driver instruments in your direct FOV or a windshield HUD - electric car market is still kind of new but the newcomers seem promising - TBH if an electric car fit my lifestyle I'd be looking at Jaguar iPace over Tesla model Y.

The ipace competes with the model x, not with the model y.

I feel like model S and X are outdated at this point and AFAIK Elon said they don't plan to refresh them so I wouldn't even consider those if buying new.

They added a lot of things in 2020 , including newer batteries etc , model s 2021 plaid will be the fastest production car on this planet :) until roadster will be released

20 years? lol ill take that bet

I wonder what capabilities they have versus what they turn on for the general public due to regulation and safety. I would imagine that to release FSD in the wild will require an insanely high factor of safety.

Let’s do it. I am going on 5 yrs of autopilot ownership. It still phantom brakes on freeways today as it did 5 years back. Forget about the major edge cases

You’re guessing more than 20 years or less?

much less

How much less do you want to bet on? Also how much do you want to bet?

I'd put $100 that a tesla will be able to take you from start to destination without help in no more than six years, and I think I'm being conservative.

>from start to destination without help

You might want to narrow this down by location.

Take a 10 mile trip in Menlo Park (which they once called "urban" in a video) is different than a 10 mile trip in Manhattan... in February

I was going to say the same thing. GP and I could design the bet with assumptions like "most of the US" and "good weather" but that's riddled with issues from a contractual standpoint.

So how about it has to take GP from his home to a destination 100+ miles away, the car has to park itself in a legal spot, and it must reverse at least once during the trip? And I'd like to see it done at least 3x, including once when it's not perfect weather (could be foggy, moderate rain, light snow - whatever).

With conditions as you've described I would still happily bet $100 that no later than 9:00am EST Oct 9 2026, a Tesla available to ordinary consumers will be able to perform the task with no driver intervention.

Buy TSLA instead.

I’ll take that bet. We’ll come in 20 years to this comment :).

Are you taking the over or the under?

I drove a 1999 Mitsubishi Montero Sport, 2004 Volvo XC90 and a 2017 Prius Prime.

Family had a variety of Honda and Toyota sedans I tried.

Would have to agree that Model 3 is by far the best car I have driven. I wouldn’t trade it for any other car in the world, except maybe a Model Y.

So you drove a BEV and liked it, and it happened to be a Tesla.

> - Tesla's build quality is quite bad

I'd rather get the kinks out upfront whereas owning an aging bmw (or most german cars really), you get hammered on maintenance and unexpected repairs.

Let’s see how maintenance and unexpected repairs work out for “aging” Tesla’s.

I don’t know what I would trust more - a 10 year old Tesla, or a 10 year old BMW

Given the simplicity of electric cars I feel like the Tesla would be in a pretty good spot.

But Tesla's continuous improvement means parts aren't tied to model years and are often already hard to track down. They're not going to be made by third parties given the lack of scale.

I'm foreseeing small faults totalling otherwise perfectly good cars later on in the current generation.

If Tesla ramps up like they're claiming though, this problem will sort itself out.

Lol. “Continuous improvement” is a great euphemism.

I don't know anything about cars, but do those old BMWs have software that requires maintenance? Tesla likely will.

At some point they can just freeze the upgrades like Apple does and just provide maintenance.

A bit of a pain to be supporting some LTS versions, but not that big relative to the billions in sales you're supporting with it.

Presumably they'll end of life the car at some point and repair will shift to third party shops. Do they have access to the internals of the car?

Lets see, had to recently replace the radiator reservoir, the alternator, and had an oil leak in my 10yo 328i. These parts don't exist in a Tesla.

Should be interesting to see what does breakdown though.

But does your bmw have a leaky door, sunroof, trunk, or lights?

What about a charger? Or random electrical errors?

I don’t buy the “less maintenance” part. Maybe stuff breaks less often but if it breaks, you’re screwed.

Anyway we’ll see. I’d gladly be proven wrong.

Also, there are other brands. I think everyone agrees EVs will eventually be more reliable, Tesla is just a worst case scenario with their “high volume” “beta release” (model S)

>But does your bmw have a leaky door, sunroof, trunk, or lights?

Yeah my '97 actually did have a leaky back windshield after the stripping got old enough. The lights fill with water on my father's '02.

Are you joking asking me if an old BMW has electrical problems? If you've never owned one the answer is yes.

Your ‘97? That’s 23 years old...

My 98 BMW 316i never had issues

EVs have far fewer parts than ICE vehicles - transmission radically simpler, no radiator, exhaust, etc etc - I would take a 10 year old Tesla over a BMW any day.

ICE vehicles don't have a battery that costs $15k to replace after 15 years though

Batteries get cheaper over time. Getting a replacement will be less expensive than getting a new car.

modern performance bmws (which compete w/teslas) do not last 15 years. nothing even close. not even half that.

Are you saying, eg, a BMW M3 wouldn't last for 7.5 years? Sounds like you've drank some strong Tesla koolaid.

nope, i used to own an m5. here's a letter i sent to BMW years ago.

To whom it may concern,

I purchased an E39 M5 in 2000, which at the time was the absolute pinnacle of automotive achievement. No other car came close to the blend of utility, luxury, performance and driving ex- perience. I was thrilled.

After a few years of ownership, I began to be troubled by the frequency with which I had to visit the repair shop. It seemed that every few months something else had gone wrong, and needed to be repaired, or more often, replaced. All of the repairs have been done at an authorized BMW repair center, with only one exception when my passenger seat broke; BMW wanted over six hundred dollars for a repair that someone else did for me for $50.

Dino Belotti, my Service Representative, has been nothing short of fantastic. He made every visit as painless as possible. The problem is, there were far too many visits. I’m sure he’s got a special file in his drawer with my name on it that is significantly thicker than any other in his drawer. Or then again, maybe they are all that thick. One wonders.

As you can see, the list is quite extensive. Too extensive. In fact, despite only driving my M5 about once per month in the last year, the pace of repairs has not slowed down. The last straw was this past weekend, when I drove my M5 for the first time since getting it back from the repair shop the week prior, and it started to rain. Wouldn’t you know, but the wipers fail to function. So for that round trip to the shop I had exactly zero trouble-free drives in my car.

This is what I have had to replace on this car since I bought it new in 2000: * passenger-side mirror (twice) * interior rear-view mirror * clutch (erroneously blamed for noise when I had an engine problem) * flywheel (erroneously blamed for noise when I had an engine problem) * brake rotors * right rear taillight assembly (connectors had corroded/fused) * right rear taillight assembly again (connectors had corroded/fused) * navigation system including head unit * stereo amplifier * center console (twice -- once damaged during another service) * hazard lights switch * front cup holders (filmsy plastic that's a joke... I never use them and they still broke!) * passenger front seat (as noted, this lone repair was done at a non-authorized BMW service center) - the motor (yes, the entire motor. a $17,000 part) * the battery * front passenger-side blinker assembly * driver's side interior door trim * front spoiler * on-board computer * O2 sensor * parking brake * air-conditioning unit * air-conditioning unit again * central locking feature (keys needed to be replaced and reprogrammed) * two replacement windshields (one developed a crack randomly, the other due to impact) - transmission universal joint * gas tank cover actuator * passenger side rear-view mirror (third time) * front spoiler undercarriage panels * coin tray cover * shifter knob (just fell apart) * rubber moulding around the windshield * ABS brake pump (a $3,000 part) * brake bushings * final stage resistor (not sure what this is) * paint on the wheels peeled off, looking absolutely embarrassing. Had them repainted. That de- veloped spider cracks. Had them repainted again. I don’t know whose decision it was to paint wheels. Bad choice. * windshield wipers no longer work * BMW logo just peeled off the front of the car. The irony of this last defect is not lost on me.

With only a mid-level understanding of how cars work, I have to think long and hard about what parts of the car I bought that I haven’t had to pay to replace. The above list reflects only what I could remember at the time of writing this letter. I’m sure there are many more repairs not listed here, but on file at Vista BMW.

I am a huge fan of BMW, and when I bought the M5 for me and the X5 for my wife, I sincerely hoped that we would stay within the BMW family for a long time. I wanted my M5 to be a car that my son could drive some day. I love it that much. But given this track record, it is unfortunately a car I can no longer afford to keep, nor can I in good conscious recommend that anyone I care for buy a BMW.

My repair history has changed me from a fan of BMWs, to someone who cautions others about buying them. I do not know what, if anything, can bring me back into the BMW family, but I thought someone at the highest level of BMW should know of my experience.

A BMW straight six with a manual transmission can be expected to last 300K miles, and if you choose the right one (some models are notoriously bad), the maintenance isn't even that bad. Electronics are damn expensive to fix in any car, though, which is one of the best reasons to prefer older cars with less of that error-prone stuff. German cars have crappier electronics than others, for some reason. (It's no longer even possible to build really reliable electronics in the age of ROHS lead-free solder.)

Bull.

There are plenty driving old BMWs.

My 15 year old Volvo suv with V8 runs fine. No leaks either

And yet, most of the troublesome parts on my diesel car aren’t related to the engine or transmssion.

It’s mainly electrics and the front suspension.

That’s not much of a comparison — BMWs aren’t known to age well.

Compare it to a Honda at 200k miles or 10 years.

Are Telsas known to age well? I can't imagine long term build quality is lowly correlated with short term build quality. But the electric drive train is a major complicating factor.

It is a mixed bag. Early model S cars are only 8-9 years old right now. Still pretty young to determine true long term reliability. Tesla also kept the reputation decent early on by offering warranty repairs on pretty much everything. I've heard it is not uncommon when looking at an 2012 model S to have reports of 10+ door handle replacements. The real test will come at the EOL time for batteries. If it is similar to hybrids, that comes at ~15 years. I imagine in ~2027 virtually all original model S cars will be in junk yards/salvage auctions when they are totaled by a dead battery.

There’s no parts supply or third party sources of most components, so I’d guess that you’ll have cars off the road for stupid part failures before the drivetrain is caput.

Yep , Tesla’s aging is quite good any gas car after 100k miles don’t drive like a new car. Tesla 100k is totally fine .

Last time I looked, Tesla's were pretty hard to get repaired purely because of part shortages.

I'd rather have none of the above.

-Proud Toyota Corolla 2006 owner with 0 maintenance issues.

Mostly agree with you, and I’m on my second Tesla too. Even on a bad day I’d much rather be driving my X than anything else.

2019 Model 3 owner and 100% agree on points 1, 3, and 4. About Elon, he's had some bad takes on Covid, but other than that he really is driving humanity forward.

How can a car have "quite bad" build quality and yet be "the BEST car you have ever driven"?

Have you not driven any other cars?

Just because it’s electric (feels really nice to drive), the range is good, and there’s a lot of storage space.

Also, some other cars at the same price range have weird feature omissions like no rear seat-warmers or no automatic wipers, etc.

But yes it’s clearly not as well put together as other cars. I don’t see how these are mutually exclusive.

What about a Volvo S60? I think the S60 is much nicer than a Model 3, and it’s similarly priced depending on what country you’re in

I mean, I used to have a Mercedes AMG before my current one, and it was simultaniously the worst and the best car I have ever owned. The worst because it was uncomfortable and built like a horse cart, everything in this brand new, very expensive mercedes creaked, rattled and squeaked. I've been back to the garage so many times for "minor" fixes just to make the car usable I nearly ended up hating it after the first year, then kind of ended up learning to live it and started enjoying it more. Which brings me to the other side - I loved the way it drove, it was like the extension of my mind and my body, it was like glued to the road and like a rocket if you wanted it to be.

So yeah, I totally 100% get how you can simultaneously love and hate a car, especially if it's an expensive one.

Out of curiosity, a Mercedes AMG... what? C? E? G? SL? S?

GLA45. Which yes, is nothing more than a fancy A class, so some excuses I've heard were "well, it's a 'cheap' AMG, what were you expecting". I don't know what was I expecting, maybe only that a £55k car won't have crappy plastics everywhere that creak every time you go over any bump.

Having said that - I've spent enough time on AMG forums to know that the same problem exists even if you buy a C63 or E63, the build quality of the interior just isn't great(while the mechanical engineering arguably is, those cars are very reliable when it comes to the actual mechanical bits)

Well, it is a cheap AMG... :-P

But yeah, that's a weird segment that car is in. It's expensive, because the engine is expensive, but at the same time you're getting the exact same interior and fit-and-finish as the non-AMG versions of that class, which means an AMG S-class is very nice, while an AMG A-class is just not very nice at all. So yeah, your experience sounds exactly like what I would expect out of that specific model, and by just looking at the price tag, it's not very intuitive that that's what you're gonna get.

Build quality is not the be-all, end-all of measurements in deciding the “best” car. This is a really common viewpoint among Tesla owners. We have our gripes, but those gripes are overshadowed by other things like the infotainment, acceleration, software, etc.

Also matters what build quality people are referring to. I know there have been plenty of people complaining online. Now a roof flies off of a Model Y and that’s terrible. But I’m not sure why all the other recalls don’t get as much coverage and this Model Y. I mean Volvo just had a recall for the Polestar for a problem that would cause total power loss. I understand Tesla is the hotness to hate and love.

I mean we're talking about a car that literally has the risk of its roof blowing off. How can that NOT be the end-all-be-all?

Model 3 != Model Y

And other cars have had worse defects, (SUV rollovers, wiring fires, etc)

I guess people talk about build quality but my two year old Model 3 hasn’t had any issues. I will only buy electric cars from this point on after having the Model 3. How quick it is and I also happen to love the touchscreen and UI. Also no oil changes is fantastic. I’ve only rotated tires. My Audi maintenance costs just kept rising and rising.

It’s odd people compare the Model 3 to a wide range of cars when it seems more apt to compare it to ICE cars like Audi A4 and BMW 3 Series. I think it’s superior to those cars, I don’t miss the amount of buttons they all have (buttons I personally never use). And I feel like all car interiors have started to get very cheap.

You just take it to the dealer under warranty and sort out enough of the problems, I assume.

My 98 Pontiac Bonneville drives better than a Model 3.

Just curious: could you define better?

Regarding Autopilot, friends who are Tesla owners treat the Full Service Driving option as a way to get early access to new technology and fund its development. I do wish the false promises were not made at all, but I also think at this point people know what they're signing up for. Looking at how it performs (example: https://youtu.be/ZcW7nzmm79E), I would say they have the best implementation out there.