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Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dalbasal on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:41PM (#17426116)
Apple maps is an odd sort of problem for apple to have taken on.

First, it's Google head on. This is exactly the stuff where Google is very hard to beat. For Apple, it's a little outside their strengths. Too fiddly. Every damned place in the world has their own little public transport issues, data sources. Apple are more of a clever solution with the right compromises bunch than a "slog our way through 10 million random issues until a pattern emerges" bunch.

I like the moxy, but there's always going to be an "are we the new Bing?" cloud hanging over projects like this, unless and until they "win." All that said, I'm glad there is something out there that isn't google.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by cwp on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:55PM (#17428150)
Agreed, but... they've already "won". Winning doesn't mean driving Google Maps out of existence, it just means being good enough that Google can't squeeze concessions out of Apple by threatening to yank GMaps.

A few years ago Apple disclosed that Apple Maps has 75% marketshare on iOS. [1] Mission accomplished.

[1] https://apnews.com/df90458e58564f19b4b7c8510f9baa67/apple-ma...

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Andrex on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:12PM (#17428238)
Where in the linked article does it say Apple Maps has 75% marketshare?

Assuming that number is accurate, as Apple Maps is preinstalled on iPhones it means 25% of users went out of their way to manually remove it. Mission far from accomplished (and hence Apple's efforts in the OP to rebuild Maps' dataset entirely in-house.)

I'm also curious what the active usage numbers are versus Google Maps on iOS.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by cwp on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:11PM (#17428551)
Eighth paragraph. "Apple says its mapping service is now used more than three times as often as its next leading competitor on iPhones and iPads"

Ok, maybe slightly less than 75%, because Waze exists. But again, crushing Google Maps is not the goal. Keeping people on iOS is the goal.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by TaylorAlexander on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:04AM (#17429419)
I also haven’t figured out how to get links I click on in my phone to open in Google Maps, so I accidentally open Apple Maps all the time.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mimimihaha on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:37PM (#17431763)
I would uninstall Apple maps entirely from my phone if i could but then there’d be no way to open up dropped pins from my messages. I always feel like the user is grabbed by the balls when it comes to device manufactures trying to force you to give them your data rather than hand it over to someone else, just because they know the user can’t do anything about it really.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by wutbrodo on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:26AM (#17434675)
> I always feel like the user is grabbed by the balls when it comes to device manufactures trying to force you to give them your data rather than hand it over to someone else, just because they know the user can’t do anything about it really.

This isn't a manufacturer problem, it's an Apple problem. Lack of choice is baked into their design, which is uncontroversial among both proponents and detractors; the former would (reasonably) say that there are tradeoffs that are the other side of the coin to constraining the user so heavily.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by tigershark on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:17AM (#17429726)
Once you could open it in google maps from Apple maps, now they removed this ability. I wish I could use google maps as a default and get rid of that useless Apple maps.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jehlakj on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:59PM (#17431572)
And if only gmail would open up safari by default without asking me every single time. And yes, I only use safari on my iPhone because it’s either just safari or safari AND chrome.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by linkregister on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:47PM (#17437465)
Firefox is reasonably performant on iOS.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bald on Saturday June 30, 2018 @06:59AM (#17430356)
Wow, isn't that the same kind of behavior/pattern that made MS target of the antitrust charges in the end of the 90s, back then with IE being the default browser?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:32AM (#17430644)
No, they had trouble because of they way they forced PC manufactures to ship IE instead of Netscape.

Also, they had practical monopoly. Apple doesn't

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sincerely on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:46AM (#17429519)
I don’t think theres a way to set Google maps as the default :(
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by ASalazarMX on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:40PM (#17428691)
That's some Bilbo Baggins phrasing. It's telling if no hard numbers were divulged.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by MikeTheGreat on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:08AM (#17429423)
Can I ask what you mean by "Bilbo Baggins phrasing"?

I agree with your point, and think I can guess what that phrase means, but I'm not quite remembering why Bilbo Baggins would be associated with being intentionally vague about something :)

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by belriosity on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:18AM (#17429454)
The line he uses at his going away party is somewhat related, “I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

I'm not sure if it's what OP meant though.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mistermann on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:51PM (#17431530)
I've always assumed that was a veiled insult, but never thought about it long enough to tell.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jrochkind1 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:32PM (#17437737)
I always assumed it was too, but now that I actually try to parse it... I think maybe it's not? But all who heard it probably assumed it was too? I think Bilbo probably meant the to be confused about whether it was or not, with plausible deniability, haha.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jrochkind1 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:09AM (#17429575)
Ha, i'm adding "Bilbo Baggins phrasing" to my repertoire.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dx034 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:06AM (#17430087)
That probably includes embedded maps in apps. They default to apple maps and this will make up a lot of usage. Direct map usage is probably more skewed towards Google Maps.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by evan_ on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:22PM (#17428303)
> Apple says its mapping service is now used more than three times as often as its next leading competitor on iPhones and iPads, with more than 5 billion map-related requests each week
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jschmitz28 on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:30PM (#17428857)
I wonder whether this includes all of the times where I tap an address link from Messages, Apple Maps opens as the default (which you cannot change[1]), I realize the horror of what I've done, and then I copy/paste the address explicitly into Google Maps. Count one map-related request for each!

[1]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/228904

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by 6nf on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:19PM (#17429303)
Yea I bet if you measure by in-app hours instead of frequency, Google Maps would come out on top even though it's not installed out of the box, and even though all map actions on an iPhone will invoke Apple Maps by default.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by LoSboccacc on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:08AM (#17429707)
siri search may also hit "apple mapping services" - the phrasing is a swamp of marketspeak
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by endianswap on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:47PM (#17428434)
That means 75% is an upper bound, right? It's only 75% if Google had the only other maps product, and even they have two popular ones (Maps and Waze) that are likely to be installed.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Retric on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:44AM (#17430681)
No, it's more than so it could also be 79%. But, I don't think it's clear if they count Google as the competitor or each app separately.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by myrandomcomment on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:32PM (#17429195)
I use my phone with car play for nav, so Apple maps. Directions and time estimates are better then google. Finding near by stuff, google wins. To the other posters point, since I am a car play user, Apple won as far as that goes.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by telcodud on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:39AM (#17429506)
Google Maps, Waze, and other third-party apps are finally coming to CarPlay: https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-carplay-ios-12-will-fina...
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sildur on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:22PM (#17428302)
Google Maps is also preinstalled on most android phones.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by corobo on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:12PM (#17428236)
If maps is installed on phones as part of the default install doesn't that mean that 25% of people go out of their way to remove or replace it?

It says nothing about the users that have no use for maps and just counts them anyway

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by another-one-off on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:25PM (#17428841)
It says nothing about anything, really. There may be specific jurisdictions where Apple maps or Google maps falls over because that is an area they happen to have some bad data for - we can't really tell.

Strategically, Apple maps is in a good spot for Apple - Google's offering isn't the major choice of users for a piece of critical functionality.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dflock on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:17PM (#17429148)
Apple maps is installed by default on iOS AND is the default mapping app when you tap an address - and you CAN'T change that default on iOS. Given that, their usage numbers aren't as impressive as all that.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by debt on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:50PM (#17428914)
Seems odd to just blindly accept whatever numbers Apple provides about the usage of its own apps. Isn’t it going to be inherently at best a little biased? I guess there’s really no possible way to independently verify these numbers anyway.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by macintux on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:16PM (#17426411)
I'll quote my reply from a similar comment...

What choice do they have? Maps, location data, and the services they enable are critical to mobile devices today, and will only get more so with AR and devices without screens.

“Everybody but Google” isn’t good enough judging by the current state of affairs, and Google doesn’t play by the same privacy rules as Apple, so they seem to have few options.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by untog on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:45PM (#17426658)
They could sponsor OpenStreetMaps and dedicate resources to it, donate satellite imagery etc. They'd get a lot of great data in return.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by madeofpalk on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:07PM (#17429117)
Fun fact: they do! https://github.com/osmlab/appledata

e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2018-May/0...

> * I work for Apple’s Maps team. We are interested in doing some fixes and improvements to inland water features in Australia on OSM, such as adding and improving geometry of polygons for lakes and wide rivers, fixing broken relations, and correcting alignment issues for inland features when they meet the coast.*

> Atlas [1], a tool Apple created for querying, visualizing, and storing OpenStreetMap data.

> Data Improvement Projects [2] being worked on by the Apple Data Team.

> Building Footprint Data [3] that Apple is sharing.

[1]: https://github.com/osmlab/atlas

[2]: https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues

[3]: https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/blob/master/BUILDINGS.md

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by macintux on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:53PM (#17426746)
OSM is orders of magnitude worse than Apple's current data set in my area, and I doubt that's unusual.

So the question for Apple is why tie themselves to a 3rd party platform? If they're going to go to this massive level of effort to generate the best data set they can achieve, they'll want to control the full stack for quality and predictability.

They could feed the OSM-relevant data they create to the platform, but that means a lot more work to create and maintain the integration tools and manage the workflow, along with potentially reduced revenues if they make OSM too good.

I doubt they'll care about any threat from OSM, but I doubt they'd see the overall effort as a good business investment. This isn't as straightforward as open sourcing some software.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Doctor_Fegg on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:49PM (#17427762)
> OSM is orders of magnitude worse than Apple's current data set in my area, and I doubt that's unusual.

As ever, define "worse" and "my area".

OSM is consistently worse worldwide (compared to Google, TomTom and Here) for geocoding. OSM is consistently worse for lane guidance. OSM is generally worse than Google worldwide for commercial POIs (shops, restaurants etc.), but on a par with TomTom and Here, and this is very location-dependent.

OSM is better worldwide, by several orders of magnitude, for pedestrian and bicycle mapping. OSM is generally better for non-commercial POIs. OSM is very often better in all aspects (save geocoding) in rural locations, particularly in Europe.

If you're an American motorist then Google is your best map right now. If you're a European cyclist then OSM is really the only game in town. It's not a black-and-white issue.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by yetanother1980 on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:28PM (#17429327)
I was about to respond to the GP asking for details because where I am and as mainly a pedestrian and cyclist OSM is really the only decent solution (unless you like walking 30minutes in a large circle rather than 5).
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by rubyn00bie on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:52PM (#17427777)
I think Apple sponsoring and improving OSM would actually be the smartest and best way out of this debacle.

I think a perfect example of Apple doing this is: Webkit. Webkit gets back a lot from Apple (though I'm sure there's plenty of room to be miffed at Apple for being slow sometimes, but it still doesn't disprove the point) and it's a core part of their user-facing applications.

Personally, I'd like to see them just open source what they have and let the world enjoy. Either approach would certainly remove the death grip Google has on mapping solutions right now.

Edit: update for grammar and clarity fixes.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by krick on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:01PM (#17428759)
> Apple sponsoring and improving OSM would actually be the smartest and best way out of this debacle

I like to be thinking that, but being aware of me liking that thought, I'm asking myself: would I actually do so being some Apple executive? And I'm not sure I would. I do think that being community-supported is really, really great, and OSM has a pretty good community too. I'm a big opensource proponent, so it's easy for me to say, but I also think having their maps (software and data) free (as in GNU, yeah) wouldn't harm Apple, given the map is not their unique product they are selling. And being a native supporter of something that could be wikipedia for maps would be huge. So, yeah… yay OSM?

But, with all that said: IMO, OSM is a huge organizational mess. Giving them money & satellites, and then just expecting it will all "solve itself out" isn't really something I would do being responsible for Apple Maps. For starters, it's not like all OSM community members automatically become Apple employees, you're basically donating to somebody over whom you won't have any leverage. What's more important, it's not clear what it the goal of the donation, what OSM is expected to do with that? And how it will serve Apple? Their priorities seem to be quite off, OSM doesn't give a shit about any "product" whatsoever, they are just guys passionate about collecting all sorts of geo-data into databases nobody ever uses (at least, as far as OSM is concerned, they are the database: they don't make apps). And it's even questinable if such way of collecting data is the way to go in the age of imaging satellites, widely accepted spyware on every phone, ML and "big data".

And it's not like this is cheap, any way it would be done. And, no offense, but "partnering" with OSM wouldn't be exactly partnering. OSM doesn't have managers, engineers or cartographers any better than Apple can hire, all they have is community, which wouldn't even be OSM community anymore, if Apple rolls out a better (and more accessible) open geo-spatial DB than OSM has. Which, I believe, they are capable of.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:45PM (#17429368)
Couldn’t they just fork OSM? If OSM wants to merge, go for it. Otherwise we have a new opensource map project. Not sure why we care if the original project lives or dies.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by krick on Saturday June 30, 2018 @06:14AM (#17430242)
I guess they could. But since they have to do everything themselves anyway, why bother? I'm not sure about the legal aspect, but even so, I'm pretty sure Apple can use OSM's data in one way or another would they need to (in fact, article states that they did use it in the earlier versions of the map). And since they are making the map on their own, nothing forces them to open-source the DB right now: should they decide that it will be beneficial they can do it any time in the future. And should they decide it isn't: they just don't.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by rmc on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:04AM (#17430900)
Yes they could. The OSM licence requires a share-alike, so OSM would be able to use anything Apple add, but all that's required is a database dump. It would be up to the OSM community to "merge" it back in if they wanted.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by kccqzy on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:20PM (#17428999)
WebKit is Apple's project. It doesn't make sense to say WebKit gets back a lot because it's their own project. It's forked from KHTML, but hey nowadays even Konqueror uses WebKit.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by _emacsomancer_ on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:53PM (#17429394)
And, given Apple's business model, which is selling hardware, one would think they could really afford to give back a bit more to open source.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by senthilnayagam on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:58AM (#17429548)
OSM has some architectural baggage which is holding it down. until it is solved it can't compete with google maps ever.

also Apple need to bring alternate satellite image providers like ISRO, SpaceX

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by pythonaut_16 on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:27PM (#17427058)
I think it's kinda like Google working with Android as an open source project. Google makes money on Android primarily by using Android as a means of delivering the Google ecosystem. They don't care that it's open source because they don't make money by selling it.

Apple could do the same thing with maps. Support a robust open mapping initiative to make sure their primary business (selling iPhones and other devices) has a solid platform for emerging technologies like AR. Making sure they have a solid maps offering supports the Apple (aka iPhone) ecosystem.

Also similarly to Google, they can still push plenty of proprietary things on top of the open parts of the initiative.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by borgel on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:52PM (#17427323)
Plus it seems like this would weaken Google's partial stranglehold on the market is a side effect.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by oblio on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:08PM (#17427455)
Commoditize your complement.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mikejarema on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:31PM (#17428000)
I like that line, is it yours or does it have some further history/examples behind it?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mkl on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:58PM (#17428167)
It's been around for a while. Here it is talked about by Joel Spolsky in 2002: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/

Gwern's article about it was recently discussed here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047348

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by gxs on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:36PM (#17427663)
This is a great idea. I hope someone at Apple is reading.

Makes perfect sense, they don't need to make money on it, just an alternative to google.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by saturn_vk on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:14PM (#17426943)
You could fix your spotty coverage yourself. The areas I've been at had exceptional detail.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:46PM (#17427247)
Yeah, I’ve nothing better to do than roam around fixing maps. It’s not like I have a daily job or anything. /s

It the same argument when someone talks about an issue with an open source software. The response is, “The source code is available, go fix it yourself.” It doesn’t work that way for anything but trivial issues.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by yardie on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:27PM (#17427594)
I’ve made minimal corrections in OSM. It is nothing like working on code. If you can draw a line, point and click then even you can make difference.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Animats on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:52PM (#17428128)
I've fixed a few things in Open Street Map. But, for example, the city line for Redwood City CA at its western edge is totally bogus. That needs to be fixed by automatic reference to some authoritative source, like the USGS database.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by rickycook on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:50PM (#17429076)
i think there was an article a while ago about the OSM community not liking the idea of bots and automation, and how it’s a big problem for people “graffitiing” the maps because it’s manual effort to reset
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by maxerickson on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:06AM (#17430905)
It's not so much vandalism that is the issue, it's that rampant automatic edits can end up removing meaning from the data (by smoothing out meaningful differences and the like) or if they aren't careful enough, create a giant mess.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by rmc on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:00AM (#17430885)
With code you need to be able to programme. For OSM you just need to know something about an area. Do you know what the name of that street is? That there's an italian restaurant on that corner? What the house number of that building is? etc etc
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by 394549 on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:59PM (#17427400)
> Yeah, I’ve nothing better to do than roam around fixing maps. It’s not like I have a daily job or anything. /s

No one said it has to be your job or passion. I've fixed a couple of areas in OSM, but I've probably spent no more than a few hours working on it in total.

> It the same argument when someone talks about an issue with an open source software. The response is, “The source code is available, go fix it yourself.” It doesn’t work that way for anything but trivial issues.

Fixing a map for a locale you're familiar with is orders of magnitude easier than fixing a bug in an unfamiliar codebase potentially built with unfamiliar technology. That's assuming you know how to code in the first place.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:08PM (#17427456)
> No one said it has to be your job or passion. I've fixed a couple of areas in OSM, but I've probably spent not more than a few hours working on it in total.

That doesn’t work unless everyone else is doing it. And for that to work, everyone should be using it in the first place. It’s a catch 22 problem. To be fair, it is possible that people do this where you live - which may be a reason why it is usable there, but I have not found that to be the case at the places I have visited.

Perhaps it is not as complicated as fixing a software bug, but the idea is same - the data is available publically, go fix it.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by 394549 on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:08PM (#17427885)
> That doesn’t work unless everyone else is doing it. And for that to work, everyone should be using it in the first place. It’s a catch 22 problem.

If that were actually true, Wikipedia would be no more than four stub articles written by Jimmy Wales.

The real barrier is people looking at a volunteer project and asking themselves "how can I take from this what I want?" rather than "how can I contribute to this, even in a small way?"

No one says anyone has to take on the herculean task of totally fixing all the problems they see in their area. But if you spend a little time fixing something, it will get better and perhaps even attain a high enough quality to satisfy you.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JimDabell on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:09AM (#17429709)
The most likely time for somebody to notice a problem is a) when they are on the move, and b) when it's a location unfamiliar to them. These are terrible circumstances to expect somebody to stop what they are doing and edit a map.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by adrianN on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:53AM (#17429818)
OSM is great for walking and cycling because pedestrians and cyclist are flexible enough to make small detours to map missing paths. In cities it's usually good enough if your destination is in the right spot, you can navigate by walking generally in the right direction. Finding potential shortcuts and getting to map terra incognita is just an added bonus.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Twisell on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:49AM (#17429806)
And while I really like OSM I must say Apple got it right. The "report an issue" interface on iOS Map is easy to use on the go and requests are actually assigned to people who fix the map. I’ve signaled a few mistake and they all have been corrected.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by macintux on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:11PM (#17427478)
It's not as complicated as fixing a software bug, but it's not trivial for the first-time user either.

Create an account, figure out how to navigate the interface, figure out what rules apply to your update, apply update, get reprimanded because you followed the explicit rule for "I'm not quite sure what to do with this".

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Ultimatt on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:11AM (#17430102)
__sr__ you're aware open source actually works. Largely because a tonne of people have entirely the opposite attitude to you for social tasks? Unless you haven't noticed Wikipedia exists... I worked on that long before it was mainstream or generally useful.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by specialist on Saturday June 30, 2018 @09:19AM (#17430785)
One of my besties is the OSM guru & evangelist (day job) and Ingress fanatic (that annoying friend).

He tried to dream up some notions to gamify improving OSM's data. While their current data quality trends are remarkable, better is better, right? (I don't have the gumption to find & link their conf proceedings slidedeck right now, sorry.)

I have interest and experience with GIS, location-based stuff, games. So we tried to brain storm some game ideas.

Sadly, we got nothing.

But I'm confident someone will divine a MineCraft-esque smash hit game. Something simple, fun, engaging, cultural, that with 20/20 hindsight will leave a lot of people facepalming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingress_(video_game)

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by ambicapter on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:47AM (#17429652)
"The problem with open source software is that you have to fix it yourself". Unreal.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by macintux on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:22PM (#17427013)
I spent some time starting to do so, but the gaps are cavernous, and I decided I had I other priorities.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by hrktb on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:04PM (#17428193)
For me the issue is more that they don’t seem to be able to pull it off.

Sure if they could have a super high quality dataset they build themselves it would be stupid to share it, but they don’t have that data, and I wouldn’t bet on them to have it even putting all their weight in the effort.

There is also the issue of motivation for the user to give feedback. If I do it in Google Maps I know it will benefit most users. In OSM it’s a pure gift to the community. Apple Maps ? it’s less clearcut.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by untog on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:42PM (#17428406)
The key part in what you said is "my area". There are a great many areas in which Apple Maps is fantastic - usually well-populated cities or surrounding areas in the US.

The reason to partner with OSM would be to cover the other 99% of landmass. It's very, very difficult to scale an operation like that otherwise.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by reaperducer on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:49PM (#17427289)
They could sponsor OpenStreetMaps and dedicate resources to it

According to the article, OpenStreetMaps was one of the data sources that Apple used and decided wasn't up to snuff.

The article doesn't specify what the problems were with OSM, or if there were any problems unique to OSM, but one of Apple's priorities is rapid map updates, which is something that can be accomplished faster if it's in-house.

In addition, Apple intends to update its new maps in real-time (new road opens and 100 iPhone users drive on it, it magically appears on the map). I don't think that's possible with OSM.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Doctor_Fegg on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:42PM (#17427701)
Apple has a team right now working on OSM: https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues

The article just strikes me as plain wrong in this regard. Yes, of course Apple isn't going to use OSM in the Bay Area, but it's a big world out there.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by maxerickson on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:55PM (#17427806)
There's no technical limitation whatsoever in the way of using OSM as a primary data source and also doing things like using phone telemetry to add roads to your local display map.

It'd likely be necessary to make that data available under the same license OSM is under, but that'd be it.

The way people use OSM, they grab a dump of the data and then load it into a database or whatever (probably processing it into a convenient schema) and then build maps from that database. So it's pretty easy to have more than 1 source contributing to the map you are displaying.

For updates, edits to OSM are available minute by minute, so if your data ingestion is up to it you don't have to put up with the stale data:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm/diffs#Minutel...

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by alex_duf on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:25PM (#17427578)
That's absolutely possible on osm, in fact new roads are often on OSM before they reach Google maps
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by StudentStuff on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:36PM (#17427665)
Google Maps gets really bad in rural areas, I was shocked on a recent trip in Washington state at how bad their maps are. They seemed to have half the businesses in town on the map, but the roads were inaccurate, missing, and sometimes just plain wrong.

OSM comparatively was of much higher caliber, which was surprising.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by isostatic on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:30PM (#17428341)
My estate is 3 years old. Google has no mention. Apple is incorrect. Openstreetmap is accurate since the day each road was opened up.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by simonh on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:31PM (#17427105)
That would massively benefit OSM, and if OSM became Apple Maps/Google Maps calibre resource it would also benefit other OSM users including potentially Apple's competitors, but how would it benefit Apple?

Bear in mind if malicious entries got into OSM and made their way into Apple's data, guess who eats the smelly sandwitch for that?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by toasterlovin on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:53PM (#17429392)
Yeah, but they’re actually collecting all this new data for autonomous vehicles. Improvements to their maps app is just a freebee. For autonomous cars, mapping data this detailed is probably a several billion dollar competitive advantage that they don’t want to give away for free.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by heed on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:57PM (#17428936)
Apple already contributes to and works with OSM data.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by rdlecler1 on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:46PM (#17427730)
Agree, Apple should just commoditized maps with a big open source initiative to take the leverage/power away from Google. They just need a highly functional solution for their platform.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by briandear on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:25PM (#17427576)
Why would Apple want to base their business on their he competency of OpenStreetMaps. As a shareholder, I would find that alarming; as a user, Apple Maps is far better as it is right now.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bla2 on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:34PM (#17427133)
The usual play is "when behind, join up with others and promote openness". That's what Google and Microsoft are doing vs AWS in cloud, its what browsers did during IE 6.0's reign, it's what Apple did with it's OS kernel, and so on.

It admittedly doesn't seem like a great fit for current Apple.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by StephenMelon on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:23PM (#17428611)
The two future directions that Apple are heading in are AR (augmented reality) and AS (autonomous systems). Mapping is more than key to both of those domain. It’s a complete no-brainer for Apple.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dalbasal on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:47PM (#17426676)
Well...

Maps, location data, and the services they enable were available on Apple devices before this project. They outsourced to Google, like everyone else. I can see how that's a strategically concerning position, especially considering that they are in a two-horse race against Google, but... you are going to have some uncomfortable dependencies in this business regardless. I mean chips are important.. nevermind.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by simonh on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:39PM (#17427168)
Are you aware of why Apple left the Google deal?

Google was withholding the latest features from the Apple version, including vector map data and turn by turn directions. There's also indications Google wanted access to user location data in return for some of these features, something Apple was not willing to compromise on.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dzhiurgis on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:56PM (#17428155)
But giving away most of these features would mean Apple has to host Google's data, something Google wouldn't compromise either.

Sure Google could've promised that they wouldn't collect which tile a phone requested by specific user agent, but that would be silly.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by simonh on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:13PM (#17428252)
I don't understand why Apple would need to host Google data. That's not how Google Maps on iOS works now, and it is fully featured.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dzhiurgis on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:24AM (#17430127)
It uses privileged API's
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by divbzero on Saturday June 30, 2018 @03:24AM (#17429872)
> AR

This is absolutely it. Maps, location data, and point clouds will power ARKit on the phone and perhaps in glasses.

Apple’s mobile UX has always relied on vertical integration, from custom-built A* chips all the way up to iCloud-powered software. Similarly, mastering underlying AR technologies will give Apple maximal control over its AR user experience.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by tibbon on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:43PM (#17426633)
> What choice do they have?

Perhaps this would be too risky, but they could license it from Google?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by macintux on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:46PM (#17426668)
They did, originally, but Google reportedly wasn't willing to give them everything they wanted without sharing more user data in return.

This seems better for consumers in the long run: better to have two maps apps on the device, both attempting to be comprehensive and accurate.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by puzzle on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:46PM (#17427241)
Originally, they couldn't license the actual data, either, because at least the road network wasn't Google's to license. It came from TeleAtlas (after Nokia had bought NavTeq), Zenrin for Japan and a few more. Things were tricky like that before the Ground Truth project (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsbLEtS0uls) covered enough of the planet.

When Google launched navigation on Android, it lost money in countries not covered by Ground Truth, which I think was everywhere outside the US. That's because TeleAtlas and co. charged N times as much when the same data was used for real time directions.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by IBM on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:50PM (#17426715)
That's what the relationship was before Google withheld turn by turn directions and wanted more data than Apple was willing to give [1]:

>But multiple sources familiar with Apple’s thinking say the company felt it had no choice but to replace Google Maps with its own, because of a disagreement over a key feature: Voice-guided turn-by-turn driving directions.

>Spoken turn-by-turn navigation has been a free service offered through Google’s Android mobile OS for a few years now. But it was never part of the deal that brought Google’s Maps to iOS. And sources say Apple very much wanted it to be. Requiring iPhone users to look directly at handsets for directions and manually move through each step — while Android users enjoyed native voice-guided instructions — put Apple at a clear disadvantage in the mobile space. And having chosen Google as its original mapping partner, the iPhone maker was now in a position where an archrival was calling the shots on functionality important to the iOS maps feature set.

>And this caused Apple — which typically enjoys very tight control over its products — no end of philosophical discomfort, sources say. Apple pushed Google hard to provide the data it needed to bring voice-guided navigation to iOS. But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.

>And if there were terms under which it might have agreed to do so, Apple wasn’t offering them. Sources tell AllThingsD that Google, for example, wanted more say in the iOS maps feature set. It wasn’t happy simply providing back-end data. It asked for in-app branding. Apple declined. It suggested adding Google Latitude. Again, Apple declined. And these became major points of contention between the two companies, whose relationship was already deteriorating for a variety of other reasons, including Apple’s concern that Google was gathering too much user data from the app.

I think it was a major strategic mistake on Google's part. But this was the heyday of Andy Rubin, and during that era Google was letting the tail wag the dog in trying to differentiate Android. They've since come to their senses and Android is back to being what it was always designed to be, a vessel for Google's services that actually make money. But that forced Apple to enter this business when they otherwise wouldn't have and now it will serve as a core technology from autonomous cars to AR. And since they're already sinking the capital and doing the grunt work to make Maps from scratch, they might as well earn some incremental revenue from it [2].

[1] http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...

[2] https://developer.apple.com/maps/mapkitjs/

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by puzzle on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:43PM (#17427218)
Apple never got data in the original deal, either. They just proxied tiles and search requests.

That story is cool, but it's missing at least an additional plot twist that "people familiar with Google's thinking" cautiously chose not to mention. I doubt the Apple side would bring it up. Hopefully in ten years someone will write a memoir about those crazy days.

I disagree that this was a major strategic mistake for Google; they had no other realistic choice. A bit of that was informed by the experience with the built-in Maps AND Youtube apps written in Cupertino. The article talks about features and data, but there are other realities to contend with. Of course, Apple had its hands tied by earlier events and choices, too. Things were already on a collision course by the time the negotiations started.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:49PM (#17429241)
> That story is cool, but it's missing at least an additional plot twist that "people familiar with Google's thinking" cautiously chose not to mention. I doubt the Apple side would bring it up. Hopefully in ten years someone will write a memoir about those crazy days.

This sounds definitive. Is it a conjecture, or do you know something that you're not mentioning (or possibly it is widely known and just I don't know it …)?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sievebrain on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:10AM (#17430560)
I worked at Google on maps during those times. There was a lot going on that isn't public and some bad behaviour by Apple, Jobs very much saw Apple as the dominant partner and didn't treat the maps guys well at all. It was a very difficult relationship in which Apple was unwilling to compromise or negotiate, not even to get what they wanted.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by puzzle on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:04AM (#17430899)
Like the other poster, I was at Google during those days, but I do not want to say too much. I never dealt with Apple myself, but I knew people who did, for both Maps and YouTube. None of them were particularly delighted.

The All Things D article is nice when it comes to drama and gossip, but omits details behind words such as "there were a number of issues". Those twists might be mundane or boring for a good story, but made the divorce even more inevitable. The relationship was doomed to fail.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Saturday June 30, 2018 @03:27PM (#17432332)
Thank you for the clarification.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by megablast on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:28PM (#17428848)
They would be fools to be beholden to another company for something so important.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by creyes on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:46PM (#17426666)
Make a trade maybe? Google already pays Apple a significant amount to be the default search engine
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by kevin_thibedeau on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:50PM (#17426195)
Google is doing a great job of making their mobile app a PITA to use. I just want to see a map, not a persistent screen filling list that refuses to be dismissed. If Apple were smart they would make it cross platform and strengthen their data collection with Android users.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by pkulak on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:53PM (#17426741)
If Apple made a map that labeled every street on the map at a certain zoom level, I'd switch today. I think I'm the only one who wants to use a map, to, ya know, see what the streets are. Maybe I'm old?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by zapdrive on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:04PM (#17426856)
No you are not odd. Often, it's frustrating when trying to read a street name on Google maps, especially in a dense area like a downtown. Google prefers to display business names over street names. And when there are lots of businesses in an area, you won't be able to see a street name until you absolutely zoom all the way in.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by nikanj on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:20PM (#17427539)
This is my #1 pet peeve on Google maps. It's the non-determinism that really gets me. Maybe zooming in will get me a street name? Maybe zooming out will? Maybe if I followed the road in that direction? How about this direction? How about if I follow it a few blocks, then zoom out?

Getting a good dose of impotent rage just thinking about it.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by SiVal on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:46PM (#17427736)
Well now you've gotten me all bothered, too. And if I do manage to find the street name but can't quite read it because the font is too small, I zoom in and the road expands but the font doesn't. No matter how I zoom or pan, it offers either 1) too small, or 2) oops, I disappeared again.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dahauns on Saturday June 30, 2018 @06:39AM (#17430308)
What's even more infuriating in such a case: even many businesses are missing until you zoom way in. On desktop, I've resorted to use gmaps with 50-60% browser zoom to get it to show a bigger part of the map at full zoom while still having full symbol density. It's crazy.

(The most ironic part is the pop-up "You should increase browser zoom level to get a better Google Maps experience!". No, Google, not really.)

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by lukifer on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:18PM (#17426975)
Thank you. This drives me crazy as well. (Related: roads that have both names and highway numbers, but the map shows one and not the other, regardless of zoom level.)
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Sylos on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:52PM (#17429249)
I mean, there's other map providers as well. OpenStreetMap is generally good with providing lots of map detail (whereas they are not good as a Google at providing the sort of in-depth information like opening times or that this shop has been rated 5/5 by the owner, their mother and their alt account).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/

Popular app that uses OpenStreetMap-data: https://osmand.net/

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by smelendez on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:02PM (#17427846)
I also find it frustrating you can't tap on a place while you're in "directions" mode. If you're going somewhere and want to see if some place on the way is open, you have to exit directions, tap the place and then request directions again!
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by megablast on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:28PM (#17428852)
Oh, you want to know the name of that major street? Too bad.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by gondo on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:00AM (#17429554)
not that it is the best (or even good) solution, but you can drop a pin on the map to see the address including the street name
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by toddmorey on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:40PM (#17426604)
Google Maps always nags me to login to improve my experience. I hate that; hate the idea of one more entity collecting info on my daily patterns and travels.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by ehsankia on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:38PM (#17428035)
It's annoying that notifications are on by default, but just as with any other app, you can either mute all notifications or go in and disable specific types with pretty high granularity.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by myrandomcomment on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:38PM (#17429213)
To sorta the same point, I use the YouTube app on my iPad and I am logged in because I to see my subscribed channels. Now google has asked me to sign up for YouTube Red like 1000s times now in the app. You would thing after the 999 no they would understand yet....
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by throw7 on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:26PM (#17428635)
Google maps is also very weak/nonexistent with planning a specific route, saving it, and using it. It's possible to plan a route with the web version, but there is no way to save it so it's usable past that. Sending it to mobile google maps and it recalculates everything.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by atomical on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:07PM (#17426330)
I do cross country drives and love PIP on Android. I also like how I can schedule a stop at a gas station or grocery store based on how it impacts my route.

The only complaint I have about maps is that it doesn't seem to know where I'm going next. Nine times out of ten the place I'm navigating to is the same place I navigated to from the same spot yesterday.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dmix on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:28PM (#17426523)
Google Maps lets you save common routes (plus detects ones you haven't yet) and pull them up quickly... like a daily commute route. Which powers the 'warning your drive to x is 10min delayed with traffic accident' stuff on Google Assistant.

The problem is that while Google Maps is very popular, it's not easy to find and use these features. I just came across is accidentally one day. Or it's possible Google asked me if I wanted to save if when it detected I do it often. It's been a while so my memory is a bit hazy on the original workflow I took.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:00PM (#17429264)
> The problem is that while Google Maps is very popular, it's not easy to find and use these features.

While talking about hard-to-find-and-use features: sometimes, when I try to get directions, Google offers to download them for me for offline use.

This is frustrating because it only happens sometimes, but I want it almost all the time. There's a relatively easy way to download offline directions for a specific region, but I can't find a way to download offline directions for a specific route (including, presumably, a small fuzz of nearby information—I don't know what it downloads when it offers, since I find this hard to reproduce). Just downloading all the regions involved is impractical for, e.g., cross-country drives.

Do you know how to download offline directions for an arbitrary route, when Google doesn't prompt me to do so?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by kenjackson on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:18PM (#17426973)
Also Google will use your calendar to populate the list of destinations -- I think.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by atomical on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:59PM (#17431865)
Why am I in charge of managing this in the age of AI? That's my complaint.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:08PM (#17426341)
Just tap the map... Quite easy to use Google Maps by scrolling around the map.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by techer on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:13PM (#17426389)
Admittedly I live in a very densely populated place, but now everything is hidden until you hit the correct 'zoom zone' - I still use it of course but it's less usable and far, far more bloated...
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:19PM (#17426441)
I too live in a densely populated place and easily see the full map. Do you have a screenshot? Here's what it looks like when I open, if I tap on the map it goes to full map (no search bar, no buttons on the bottom).

https://imgur.com/a/5tfuz2p

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by zapdrive on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:07PM (#17426880)
What's the name of the street between Pine and Union. Seems to be an important street. But no, Google would rather display the Chipotle rather than the street name. If I'm looking for Chipotle, I'll fucking type it out in the search box. Don't display me random businesses, just show me the damn Street name!
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by crashedsnow on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:43PM (#17428883)
It's not trying to hide the street necessarily, it's recognizing that it can't display the street AND the business name because the text would either overlap or be too cluttered to read. Not being able to prioritize street names over place names, or not being able to switch off place names entirely would be a valid criticism, but I suspect there's an attempt to make the "default" experience the best balance without requiring that people tweak a wall of knobs and levers. It's not going to please everyone, but that may not be a realistic goal anyway
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by octorian on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:05PM (#17427446)
And if you're looking for the name of the 3 other businesses in the same building as the Chipotle, good luck! You might have to zoom in another 400%, and get lucky.

Now what if you're trying to casually browse the map to get an idea of what's around you? Have fun!

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:11PM (#17427473)
If you're looking for a specific business you would type it in the search box... By default it highlights places I often go, popular places, landmarks, etc. Highlighting a lunch place at lunch time makes a ton of sense to me.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by donarb on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:49PM (#17427290)
Every Seatteite should know the names of the downtown streets with this mnemonic - “JJesus CChrist MMade SSeattle UUnder PProtest”

From south to north the streets are:

James John Cherry Columbia Madison Marion Spring Seneca University Union Pike Pine

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by snowwrestler on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:39PM (#17428044)
If I already knew how to get around, I wouldn't have opened a mapping app.

"You should already know all the streets" is not what I would call a scalable approach to labeling maps.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sprashanth on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:19PM (#17427944)
Jefferson, James, Cherry, Columbia, Marion, Madison, University, Union, Pike, Pine. IIRC. The rest of the sequence seems correct.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by megablast on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:52PM (#17428920)
What a ridiculous thing to say. I guess they only make for locals who know the area.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Cd00d on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:03PM (#17427861)
Neither you nor the street pay Google as much as Chipotle does - maybe that's part of the issue?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:04PM (#17428195)
I have been to that Chipotle a bunch of times and have searched for it multiple times (to get its hours), it makes sense to highlight it on my map. I just compared on the web version with logged in vs Incognito tab and Chipotle is only highlighted in the logged in version (along with other places I like). The public version sticks to larger POIs (hotels, museums, venues, etc).
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:13PM (#17426934)
Why would you need to see the name of the street? You're much more likely to pull open a map to go somewhere instead of learning about street names in your own neighborhood. If I want to see every street labeled I can just zoom in, but 99% of the time I just want to go somewhere.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by freehunter on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:28PM (#17427063)
Here's a use case: I was in NYC the other day, and GPS doesn't really work on the sidewalks in Manhattan. I was trying to find the Empire State Building, but I couldn't see it from where I was. I knew I was in the right vicinity, but the GPS kept hopping from block to block and I had no idea.

I had to look at the street signs and compare to the map on my phone to determine where I was and where I needed to go.

"Why do you need to see the name of the street" is a really odd question to me.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mitchty on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:24PM (#17427570)
Exactly, not showing street names presumes gps works and that its self evident where to go.

I don't get why a MAP, won't show street names. Its maddening when you have street signs and have to look around to figure out what street you're on in the application.

I'll just say Google is great at making AI and A/B testing away things that are useful and needed in a pinch.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mrep on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:07PM (#17429281)
GPS signals bounce off skyscrapers so it doesn't work so well in any city. But hopefully the AR they showed at IO will solve that problem: https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/08/maps-walking-navigation-is...

If not, the current strategy I use is to google map search a business I see and the street name and that usually works.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by reaperducer on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:02PM (#17427421)
Why would you need to see the name of the street?

And this is the heart of the Google philosophy: Second-guessing the user, rather than delivering what the user asked for. A map is a tool, not a guessing game.

You're much more likely to pull open a map to go somewhere instead of learning about street names in your own neighborhood.

If I'm in my own neighborhood, I'm probably not using a map. If I'm somewhere new, I pull out the map. Maps 101.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:17PM (#17427514)
> And this is the heart of the Google philosophy: Second-guessing the user, rather than delivering what the user asked for. A map is a tool, not a guessing game.

Well this user is happy, I don't want a digital copy of a paper map. I love the dynamic aspects of Google Maps and hope they continue to evolve new ways of showing me what I want before I do anything.

> If I'm somewhere new, I pull out the map. Maps 101.

And still I ask why would you want to know that the street is named Pike? When I'm somewhere new I don't care what any of the streets are named, I care about what is on those streets. Street names matter for turn by turn navigation, but just browsing around are useless to me. Seattle could change the name of every street tomorrow without warning and it wouldn't change where I want to go for lunch.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by reaperducer on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:16PM (#17427930)
Sounds like you've never been given an address. Or know of any famous streets. Or have never been curious about the world around you.

From your example -- If I'm in Seattle and I see "Pike Street" I might wonder if the city's #1 tourist attraction, the Pike Place Market is nearby.

Or I could just let Google decide what's best for me like a good, compliant income bag.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by GuB-42 on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:11PM (#17428547)
Addresses are meant to be searched, something that Google Maps is surprisingly bad at, at least in France... Paper maps need street names, because that's how you search but that's not the case when there is a computer helping you.

As for places of interest, I've seen an article that blew my mind. By analyzing business concentration, they are able to deduce the interesting parts of a city (they are shown in a different color on the map). And it works. Famous streets tend to show brightly, and even if you don't know the name, you know there is something there.

Of course it doesn't mean that street names are uninteresting, but on a map, choices have to be made. And tbh, when we have all these powerful tools, street names are, I think, secondary. It is not that I think Google choices are the absolute best, just that what works best on paper may not be the best for computers.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:14PM (#17428255)
If I'm navigating to an address I would put it in the search box... Who in their right mind would decide to hunt around the map to find a specific address? Pike Place Market was one of the few things highlighted on the screenshot I posted so that seems like a strange example.

Obviously we use the product differently, but I'm not using Google Maps to study for The Knowledge exam. I am looking for POIs which is what Google emphasizes, streets are just part of getting there (and are then emphasized when you're in navigation mode).

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by reaperducer on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:21PM (#17428298)
Who in their right mind would decide to hunt around the map to find a specific address?

Anyone who's been given a wrong location or directions by Google Maps. Repeatedly.

Like when Google Maps tells me repeatedly to drive my car through the lobby of a hotel to get from Point A to Point B.

There's plenty of examples of Google Maps screwing up royally and people needing to use Google Maps as an actual map. Just Goog... oh... right.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by tgb on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:13PM (#17427485)
No the street labels don't even always show on maximum zoom. Yes I want the street name even if I'm going to the Chipotle they display because it's easy to know that I'm walking to Main Street then turn left versus checking my phone every block to see if I'm there yet.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by anderskev on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:26PM (#17429179)
Exactly what I was going to add. Also if your battery is low, it's much better (for me, at least) to just memorize a few turns and then shut down the app. I don't need my phone pinging GPS constantly while it's in my pocket, and especially when exploring a new city, that's exactly where it should be if you want to take in the neighborhood while you get to your destination.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:51PM (#17429247)
> Why would you need to see the name of the street? You're much more likely to pull open a map to go somewhere instead of learning about street names in your own neighborhood. If I want to see every street labeled I can just zoom in, but 99% of the time I just want to go somewhere.

Your comment literally seems to say "Why would you do this thing, since I don't?". Surely that reasoning is just as specious as (say) asking why someone would want a vegetarian restaurant, since you eat meat?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mulmen on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:43PM (#17428413)
There's a huge amount of construction in Seattle right now. The streets around my office are constantly closing and opening on different days. Sometimes it is easier to just look at a map of the neighborhood and navigate from that. If Google wants the app to be used for navigation only they should have called it Google Navigation.

I like riding my motorcycle around and exploring the city. I may not have a specific destination in mind or want to take the most efficient route. being able to quickly pull up a map of my location mapped to signage in the real world is indispensable.

Naming streets is the entire point of a street map. It literally maps names to streets.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dragonwriter on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:46PM (#17428427)
> Naming streets is the entire point of a street map

No, it's not. Showing where streets go is important independent of naming; street maps exist for places with unnamed streets (and include the unnamed streets), which would not be the case if mapping names to streets (or vice versa) were the entire point.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mulmen on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:51PM (#17428452)
Ok fine, it's only a very valuable feature.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mrep on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:53PM (#17429253)
But aren't streets just a way to get to a places and therefore places are more important than street names?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by redial on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:47AM (#17429654)
No. When I visit friends I go to 1432 Union St. not to Walmart. I wouldn't even know how to tell the taxi driver where I want to go if not by the address.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by drag0nballz on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:13PM (#17426935)
I think he's talking about when you are in turn by turn directions you can get into a mode where there is no way to get out. You need to throw away the app to get out.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by jonknee on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:17PM (#17426967)
How do you do that? I've navigated at least 50k miles with Google Maps and have never encountered this once.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by biztos on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:49PM (#17426183)
I always understood it as avoiding a complete dependency on Google, since (some form of) Maps is a must-have feature for any modern smartphone. After the Schmidt/Android thing I think the Apple leadership basically assumed Google would screw them over sooner or later if they could.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by s3r3nity on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:53PM (#17426212)
This.

So many folks (myself included) rely on our phones for GPS & navigation, and having the UX for that be monopolized by one player is leaving a huge use case for your phone in the hands of your biggest competitor.

I think Apple has the opportunity to make a very unique & compelling experience, with their deep integration with the OS that they don't offer to outside developers. Though we'll see if they can actually execute.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by amelius on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:55PM (#17426231)
> and having the UX for that be monopolized by one player is leaving a huge use case for your phone in the hands of your biggest competitor.

This makes me wonder: where is "Apple search"?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by swaroop on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:00PM (#17426260)
It's called Siri and Spotlight :)

For example, see Safari Suggestions - https://imgur.com/a/uyd20c6

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by amelius on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:17PM (#17426422)
That would be true if Siri and Spotlight were the main entry-point for users to start a web search, and I doubt that.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mattnewton on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:24PM (#17427037)
It’s already a common user behavior to type your query right into the address bar, and that’s where this is in Safari. Spotlight is just the (confusing imo) branding
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:03PM (#17429272)
> Spotlight is just the (confusing imo) branding

Wait, isn't Spotlight the name for Apple's local search (and maybe it's now used for whatever kind of unified search iOS likes to do?), whereas Safari's feature of treating things entered into the address bar that don't look like URLs as search queries is just a common redirection feature (analogous to the Firefox Awesomebar/Omnibar/whatever it's called now) that has nothing in particular to do with Spotlight?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by saagarjha on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:06PM (#17426876)
For many Safari users, it is the the main entry-point for searches.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by JadeNB on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:01PM (#17429266)
Doesn't your screenshot show that these Safari Suggestions are powered by Google?
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by s3r3nity on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:18PM (#17426436)
Search in general is _hard._ But vertical specific searches & use cases can be tackled by different apps.

I would argue that my pushing for more prolific relationships with developers, you sort of chip away at this competitive threat with more specific, vertical-oriented searching experiences.

Example: I'm searching for restaurants nearby, I _could_ open Google, or I could leverage the Yelp/OpenTables of the app store.

Same thing for travel - flights, hotels, etc. all have apps that could, in theory, better serve the user than the catch-all "Google Search" app.

Maps is a slightly different beast; it's almost as ubiquitous as the "Phone" app itself .

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by _ph_ on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:04PM (#17426298)
There are other big search engines beyond Google. And currently Google pays Apple quite a bit of money to stay the main search engine on Safari.

But I would be very suprised, if Apple had not a team working on search algorithms, so they could start a search engine of their own, if the need is there.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by scarface74 on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:18PM (#17426429)
Apple wouldn't do search to go head on with Google. Apple's search would be very specific to the domains that it cares about businesses for Maps, music, movies, etc.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by john_minsk on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:56PM (#17427371)
And yet, any search on Apple devices is super weak
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by scarface74 on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:11PM (#17427477)
Siri search works well enough within the domains that it does directly -- restaurants (integrated with Yelp), locations, movies, movies, tv shows, sports, etc.

Anything it can't do directly it punts to Bing.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by ajross on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:22PM (#17426469)
> After the Schmidt/Android thing I think the Apple leadership basically assumed Google would screw them over sooner or later if they could.

That's a level of moralizing that isn't really appropriate for analyzing decisions like this. It's equally true, and for essentially the same reasons, that Android as a whole exists because the Google leadership basically assumed Apple would screw them over sooner or later if they could.

Businesses compete, basically. It's a good thing and the efficiencies that result make us all wealthier. It's only "screwing someone over" in the myopic eyes of the internet fan boi.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by redial on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:49AM (#17429658)
> t's equally true, and for essentially the same reasons, that Android as a whole exists because the Google leadership basically assumed Apple would screw them over sooner or later if they could.

That is the whole reason. Same with Chrome.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by r00fus on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:55PM (#17429089)
> Apple leadership basically assumed Google would screw them over sooner or later if they could.

This should be the default assumption for any relationship - doubly so when corporations or big $$ is involved. That's why we have legal paperwork even for inter-family agreements - your Mom & Pop may love you now but in 20y when dementia sets it, that may be out the window (or Mom dies, Pop remarries and Step-Mom hates your guts, etc etc).

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by scarface74 on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:16PM (#17426414)
Apple doesn't have to "win". Apple just needs to have something good enough for them to tightly integrate into their other services. Bing's purpose for Microsoft is both to be a revenue generator and to not be dependent on Google for search. Apple's only motivation for Maps is not to be dependent on Google for Maps and for integration into iOS.

Every time someone doesn't use Google Maps, Google loses ad revenue. If people don't use Apple's maps, Apple has lost nothing but a few bragging rights.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by lern_too_spel on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:45PM (#17426650)
If people don't use the app, it gets worse for other users of the app (network effects for traffic, corrections, etc.), which means fewer people use the app, and so on. Ultimately, if the quality of the app is bad, Apple remains dependant on others for mapping services.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by smpetrey on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:37PM (#17427156)
This right here.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by munificent on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:29PM (#17427080)
Maps is to Apple as G+ was to Google. Apple doesn't want to do it, they have to do it. They're afraid that without that category of data (in this case location, in G+'s case social versus Facebook), their overall product line won't be able to compete.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by tinus_hn on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:22PM (#17427954)
When Apple started working on Maps Google was the only game in town and they were certainly using that advantage. They set the terms for using peoples location, both for location awareness using Wi-Fi access points and for live traffic tracking. Also the good features were Android only (vector maps, navigation).

Shortly after Apple Maps was introduced Google suddenly came through with these features but they lost access to peoples location and being the default app for locations on iOS.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by cpuguy83 on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:15PM (#17428567)
Keep in mind before Apple maps, Google maps did not exist on iOS for turn-by-turn nav... once Apple released maps Google quickly followed suite with adding turn-by-turn nav to Google maps for iOS.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by amazingman on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:36PM (#17427667)
At this point maps are a platform hygiene factor. If you're going to be Apple, you can't rely on Google or any other 3rd party vendor for what is seen by users as a basic feature.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by yellowapple on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:41PM (#17427695)
I think part of the issue among users is that "rely[ing] on Google" was (and probably still is) a perfectly acceptable approach that already worked reasonably well until Apple inexplicably replaced it with Maps.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sjwright on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:22PM (#17429162)
Their reasons for replacing it were entirely explicable. Go look it up.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by cageface on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:15PM (#17428564)
Maps is more than streets and driving directions too. Increasingly I use Google Maps to find & post reviews of local restaurants and cafes and to find interesting new places to go when I'm traveling. Google Maps is in a completely different class for this kind of thing than Apple Maps. Lately it even links to relevant web articles about the best places to visit in a local area. All Apple Maps has to offer here is a sort of half baked integration with Foursquare and TripAdvisor.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by briandear on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:23PM (#17427565)
At least Apple doesn’t market to me based on places I visit. Tim Cook cares deeply about this, the folks at Google — privacy is contrary to their business model. “Security” is important at Google, but privacy definitely isn’t.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by GeekyBear on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:45AM (#17435576)
It's a classic Apple privacy protection move.

Apple wants to allow users to make map data requests anonymously using a random identifier that changes frequently.

Google wants to link the device requesting map data to a particular user account.

Google was playing hardball and refusing to provide turn by turn directions (as they did on Android) unless Apple stopped protecting their user's privacy.

Rather than give in, Apple decided to roll their own mapping service.

It's all about the difference between how the two companies make money. Google chooses to monetize their users' data. For instance, using their location data to tell it's advertising customers that a user has entered a store that sells their product. More recently, they have started buying credit card purchase data from third party data brokers so they can go farther and inform an advertiser that someone who saw their ad ended up buying the product advertised.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-...

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by drakenot on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:43PM (#17428414)
This was not the point of creating Maps at all. It was to be able to approach the negotiating table with Google over maps from a more favorable position. Google was making certain demands to add turn-by-turn directions to the original maps app that Apple didn’t want to concede to.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by DavideNL on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:34PM (#17426564)
> This is exactly the stuff where Google is very hard to beat

... because Google/Android abuses peoples privacy by following them everywhere, which gives them an advantage/much more data.

"Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off" : https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location...

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bitmapbrother on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:55PM (#17426769)
If your going to talk about abusing people's privacy then perhaps you should also mention how Apple abuses the privacy of their Chinese users by allowing the Chinese Government to have unfettered access to all of their cloud data.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by zapita on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:15PM (#17426955)
That's such an apples-to-oranges comparison...

There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data.

Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy.

This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by petee on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:30PM (#17427091)
> There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data.

Apple could absolutely leave China if they really cared about privacy; the backlash against the govt would be huge - your argument "but if we're not abusing your privacy, someone else might instead!" just backs the claim that Apple is doing it by choice, and their own free will. Both are doing it for money.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:42PM (#17427209)
There will be no “backlash” against the government. China is not a typical democracy.

And do you really want a corporation to have the ability to hold a nation state hostage? What’s next? Allow us to sell our stuff without taxes, or we’ll shut shop and let you handle the outcry? Allow us to circumvent <insert a corporate unfriendly law here> or we’ll let you have it?

For better or worse, a corporation can’t be allowed to dictate the policies of a nation state. Yes, it is sad that the Chinese don’t get the same privacy rights as citizens of other countries, but that is a problem with the law of the land, not any company.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bitmapbrother on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:33PM (#17427642)
Actually, there is something Apple can do. They can start by not offering iCloud services in China. Sure, it would be an inconvenience for many, but at least they would be protecting the privacy of their users by not sharing their data with the government.

>Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy.

There is also no pressure on Apple to violate their users privacy. But, they do it because China represents a large percentage of their revenue growth. If it were not for their cooperation with the Chinese government their stock would tank. China is one of their largest markets, if not the largest, so of course privacy was always going to take a back seat.

>This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often.

Probably because of Apple's hypocrisy on privacy and human rights. It's absolutely disgusting to listen Tim Cook preach about human rights and privacy, with every interview he does, considering their business practices in China.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by gurkendoktor on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:06PM (#17427874)
> They can start by not offering iCloud services in China.

Even better, they could only offer end-to-end encrypted services in China so that the datacenter operators can't track more than the ISPs already can.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:09PM (#17427891)
At the same time, there is no pressure on users to use iCloud. Or even buy Apple devices. Apple doesn’t have a monopoly in any segment.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by sharcerer on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:16PM (#17431957)
China was a big market for Google. But they pulled out for censorship/privacy reasons, letting go of billions of $.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:32PM (#17427118)
That is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard. Apple (or any other company) can’t refuse the law of the land. Had they refused, the Chinese government would simply have told them to pack their bags. Someone else would have replaced Apple and the users would still be in the same position.

Apple can go against prevalent business practices, other companies etc, but they can’t go against the law. And they shouldn’t even try! Do you really want a corporation having enough power to go against the law? If you live in a country where someone (including the government) can legally force you to forego your privacy, there is literally nothing you can do - except try and get the laws changed - something you may not have the power to do - even in a democracy.

The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to. If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop. The sole reason other Apple can resist other countries’ governments is because no one has passed laws similar to China yet. There are people who resist the passage of such laws - something that is not the case with China. Apple (or any corporation) is not going to war with a nation state over the rights of the said nation state.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bitmapbrother on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:20PM (#17427535)
Your defense of Apple's cooperation with the Chinese government is repugnant. Apple could have easily decided not to open data centers in China if they really valued the privacy of their Chinese users. Tim Cook said that privacy is a human right. Apparently, Tim Cook doesn't believe Chinese citizens deserve privacy because they happily hand over all of their data to the Chinese government. It's quite clear that that the additional revenue generated by the Chinese App store and iCloud services far exceeds the human rights of their users.

>The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to.

No, the difference between Apple and Google is that Google decided to leave China rather than cooperate with the government.

>If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop.

Shut shop? You mean like how Google shut shop?

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:44PM (#17427716)
I am not defending Apple. My point is that no corporation an (or should) is above the law. If the law is problematic, it should be fixed. But no one can be allowed to go against it.

Let’s say Apple leaves China. So what next? Do you have any contingencies outlined where the people of China get their rights?

And by the way, it’s not about Cook. Decisions like these are made by the board with shareholders’ agreement. I recommend you learn how things work before you go bashing.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by mitchty on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:32PM (#17427641)
They did, and they're back in China now.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/30/google-is-quietly-formulat...

There is a simple fact here you seem to be ignoring. If you want to do business in China, you follow Chinese laws.

If you have issues with China's human rights, you should encourage your local government to take up that issue. Your post reads like a bunch of raw emotion and statements like "Tim Cook doesn't believe" that which are just impossible for anyone BUT Tim Cook to know. Relying upon supposition of what you think a person thinks, and extending that to a company to arrive at a conclusion of: money > human rights is... pretty sad as arguments go.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bitmapbrother on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:42PM (#17427702)
I must have missed the part where Google is letting state run Chinese companies run their data centers and sharing the data with the Chinese government. When that happens then Apple and Google will be on equal footing when it comes to China.

>If you have issues with China's human rights, you should encourage your local government to take up that issue. Your post reads like a bunch of raw emotion and statements like "Tim Cook doesn't believe" that which are just impossible for anyone BUT Tim Cook to know. Relying upon supposition of what you think a person thinks, and extending that to a company to arrive at a conclusion of: money > human rights is... pretty sad as arguments go.

What's really sad is that Apple's revenue from China is far too lucrative for Tim Cook to really care about human rights and privacy. Tim Cook knows he'd probably be ousted as CEO if he ever tried to exit China.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by __sr__ on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:52PM (#17427784)
> I must have missed the part where Google is letting state run Chinese companies run their data centers and sharing the data with the Chinese government. When that happens then Apple and Google will be on equal footing when it comes to China.

Are you suggesting Google is being allowed to store Chinese citizens’ data on servers outside China? If the servers are within Chinese territory, it doesn’t matter who is hosting them - they are subject to the same laws.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by bitmapbrother on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:05PM (#17428513)
I thought it was pretty clear. Google has no data centers in China which means they don't subject their users to unfettered government searches of their data.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by IBM on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:34PM (#17427657)
Google has been trying for years to get back into China and they have no problems acquiescing to whatever the Chinese government requires to do so [1].

[1] https://twitter.com/amir/status/1009899502512115712

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by dageshi on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:56PM (#17426237)
I think you've nailed this on the head. I can't help but feel the whole "random huge messiness" of maps data must drive Apple to distraction, they're dealing with something that they can't control when their entire ethos is about fine tuning products to the nth degree...

I really don't think Apple is either capable or comfortable with dealing with the kind of messiness maps data represents vs google, who is essentially an expert on wrangling such data.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by toasterlovin on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:03AM (#17429415)
I think you underestimate Apple as an engineering organization. They have repeatedly pulled off stunning technical achievements in widely disparate domains.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by ChuckMcM on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:40PM (#17428055)
Apple makes phones, what are phones used for? Messaging, phone calls, maps, and cameras. Everything else is noise.

Of those four things, which has the most potential to monetize? Maps.

People look for restaurants, for gas, for hotels, for rentals, for real estate, Etc. All of those things are being offered by a vendor who would love to know when you're looking and would love to be able to put their pitch in front of you when you are.

Maps is to phones what the browser window is to laptops.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by eksemplar on Saturday June 30, 2018 @04:51AM (#17430049)
I wonder why Apple hasn’t adopted and expanded open street maps, it’s frankly of google quality and it’s open.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by fareesh on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:08PM (#17426338)
This is my #1 complaint about the product as well - it would be really nice if they let you dismiss or collapse the list.
Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by Karishma1234 on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:21PM (#17429003)
I routinely come across people who claim they are using google maps when they don't even have it installed on their phone. They call apple maps => google maps.

For majority of those people Apple maps works good enough and for other there is always Google maps. Apple does not have to beat Google maps out of existence, that is not the Apple's objective. Their objective is to make sure they are not dependant on Google for maps. It is easy to build that kind of product.

Re:Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up by pokemongoaway on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:09AM (#17430913)
But rewriting from scratch will be a good test to see if software engineering really is in as much if a better state in 2018 as people assume.