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Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by pkoird on Saturday February 03, 2024 @02:59PM (#39244156)
> Since then, the number of severe crashes has climbed. It is hard to say exactly why.

The article mentions some of the reasons but the one I find personally annoying the most are white LED headlights. What in the absolute seven hells is wrong with every manufacturers these days? White light may give you extra vision but it blinds everyone else. Eventually, everyone starts using it and then no one will be able to see properly at night anymore. Truly, a tragedy of the commons. A swift intervention at the Federal level seems like a must.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by blacksmith_tb on Saturday February 03, 2024 @03:13PM (#39244269)
I see quite a few searing LED headlights that don't blind me because they're angled low enough, I think the biggest problem (so to speak) is when they're on towering pickups and SUVs. I suspect there's no good way to angle the beams on those to allow their drivers to see the road without also frying the retinas of normal-sized vehicles, cyclists, and pedestrians. There also seem to be quite a few iffy aftermarket LEDs, which apparently don't always allow for much fine-tuning when they replace halogens.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by selimthegrim on Saturday February 03, 2024 @04:23PM (#39244889)
There was a big NYTimes article about this a few weeks ago, and somebody in the comments complain that the bright white LED headlights were ruining the proximity sensors on their Volvo and they couldn’t install optical filters without voiding the warranty. To me this seemed weird cause I thought those things worked on IR. I’m wondering if there’s some sort of CV solution to this? I don’t see how narrow color temperature of LEDs would affect IR sensors, etc.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by yial on Saturday February 03, 2024 @04:54PM (#39245143)
Leds can output 275nm-950nm.

IR is between 780nm-1mm.

These aren’t exact numbers.

Probably something in that overlap was damaging them somehow. Or it might be something totally different and the person had misdiagnosed.

What I’m uncertain of, is if the led is intended to produce a certain color (white, blue) how much it would be emitting on the IT spectrum.

Example: https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/us/semiconductor/knowled...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Mountain_Skies on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:04PM (#39245224)
LEDs are often straight swapped into housings designed for halogen bulbs. Doesn't matter if it's a tiny sports car or a huge F350 truck, replacing bulbs this way to going to throw light where it shouldn't be. For vehicles with headlights higher up from the road, they're more likely to end up shining in the eyes of other drivers, but it's still a problem of wrong bulb, wrong housing. Larger vehicles can have LEDs that have a beam pattern that casts light the appropriate area but this usually means a whole new headlight assembly instead of a bulb swap and even then, many of the aftermarket products aren't designed with property beam patterns in mind.

While there are guides available on adjusting headlights, they can only help so much when there's a bad combination of LED bulb, halogen housing, and high headlight height. Merely angling the housing downwards won't solve the problem of improper equipment combinations. Wish places like AutoZone offered free or inexpensive a beam pattern analysis service like they do with checking batteries and error codes. Lots of people don't even know their bulb swap is causing problems for others.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by reisse on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:51PM (#39245581)
Wait, are you saying aftermarket LEDs are road legal in US, no strings attached?

Throughout Europe it's either straight prohibited to retrofit LEDs in place of halogen bulbs, or it requires special certification where beam patterns are checked.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by acdha on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:10PM (#39246097)
Theoretically things like that are supposed to be restricted to code but in practice it seems like enforcement ended a couple of decades ago. In the 90s, I knew guys who got tickets for having window tinting which was too dark or off-brand headlights but those are incredibly common now, and it appears that DMVs stopped checking for them at inspections and the police ignore it unless they’re looking for an excuse to search the car. If you’re a white guy in a vehicle which doesn’t radiate poverty, you’re probably more likely to get hit by lightning than stopped.

The policy is probably the de facto assumption that driving is a right: the United States has been rebuilt around the need to drive everywhere and the entire system tends to implicitly assume that anything which would impede someone from driving is unconscionable unless you get to the point of a serious collision or fatality.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kube-system on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:40PM (#39246290)
> DMVs stopped checking for them at inspections

The vast majority of states don't even have safety inspections, and some have recently discontinued them.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by acdha on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:17PM (#39246543)
Yeah, it’s just wild to me that anyone can say that’s how you save money. Each serious accident costs more than a couple of full-time DMV employees.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by bandyaboot on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:38PM (#39247668)
This is the collective genius of everyone driving around looking at their phones. The government realizes that worrying about vehicles’ mechanical state is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by acdha on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:37AM (#39250086)
I mean, we’re a big country, we can do both. There’s also a strong correlation between people who are unsafe in one dimension making bad choices in others so things which are easy to enforce would be useful for re-establishing the idea that use of public roads is governed by laws.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kube-system on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:33PM (#39246635)
It's not for the government to save money, it's to make transportation affordable for poor people. Some of the states that require inspections do it for almost free, because they delegate the task to private mechanics to do, and they charge for it.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by acdha on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:43AM (#39250128)
It’s been explicitly billed as a cost savings in a few places I’ve lived (nothing is easier for a politician than bashing the DMV without mentioning that the parts voters don’t like are ensured by your legislative decisions) but if access to the poor is essential, driving is already so heavily subsidized that we could have some kind of assistance program. Most of the people benefiting from lax enforcement are not poor - those luxury trucks and tricked out cars are a middle-class hobby - and the resulting injuries aren’t free to treat.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kube-system on Monday February 05, 2024 @12:37AM (#39257715)
Ehh, I feel like if I go to a poor neighborhood and I see a lot more minor inspection issues than I see lifted trucks in suburban areas. Rust perforation, bulbs out, bald tires, worn bushings, bad shocks, missing panels, etc.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by maxrecursion on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:09AM (#39250741)
"The policy is probably the de facto assumption that driving is a right: the United States has been rebuilt around the need to drive everywhere and the entire system tends to implicitly assume that anything which would impede someone from driving is unconscionable unless you get to the point of a serious collision or fatality."

They take away driver licenses all the time in the US though. DUIs being the most notable, but even getting enough tickets can result in losing your license, or having it suspended. I know at least a dozen people who lost their license at some point.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tpmoney on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:41PM (#39245906)
To the best of my knowledge there are no DOT legal LED bulb retrofits. There are some entire housing units but not swapping just the bulb. Whether or not your local law enforcement / inspection scheme checks for this or not is another matter
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wizardforhire on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:26PM (#39245832)
For things to be illegal the laws have to be enforced…

Sadly this is not the case with headlights and most of things in the US… unless youre a minority, then you cant even walk down the street without being worried.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by toast0 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:32PM (#39247645)
Auto repair stores sell a lot of 'offroad use only' equipment that people use on the roads. There's no effective enforcement for proper headlights. You're unlikely to be stopped because your lights are too bright or pourly aimed. Many (most?) states don't do a periodic safety inspection, and if they did, you could swap in stock headlamps for the day and then back to your super bright things.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by reisse on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:00AM (#39249566)
> you could swap in stock headlamps for the day and then back to your super bright things.

That's why it is penalized by driving license cancellation in some countries. And people do get stopped for too bright headlights, because it's so easy to notice and check.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Grazester on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:29PM (#39245411)
This is especially an issue with non projector housings.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by queuebert on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:52PM (#39245587)
And most people who lift their trucks don't angle the headlights to downward compensate.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lebean on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:07PM (#39245693)
However, the lift is done to compensate for something else.
[dead]
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by anigbrowl on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:13PM (#39246110)
Troll somewhere else.
[dead]
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tom_ on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:45PM (#39246321)
Shouldn't drink and post.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ethanbond on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:03PM (#39246449)
Fella is having a sad night :’(
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sgammon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:35AM (#39249118)
why can’t Hckrnews have a laugh react
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by treflop on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:00PM (#39246795)
It’s because headlamp housings are really expensive at like $500-$2,000 for mostly plastic.

So someone just trying to make it easier to see at night cheaps out and spends a fraction for a LED bulb replacement for a few hundies, tops.

You can buy brighter halogens but they burn out much faster.

I personally suggest everyone save up for the housing and do it proper if you’re gonna do anything. At least try replacing your current halogens first because they do dim over time.

Plus halogens melt snow with all that waste heat :)

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by charles_f on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:08AM (#39262670)
> when they're on towering pickups and SUVs. I suspect there's no good way to angle the beams on those to allow their drivers to see the road

This is one of the main reason why I hate trucks. Their "I will walk on your face" makes their high mounted lights right at the level of my normal-sized car's rear view mirrors. When approached from the rear, this is blinding enough that I can't tell the difference between a truck and someone with full beams on. Same goes when crossing them. If it's raining or foggy, those new white lights are outright dangerous.

I'm wondering if they could simply mount them lower so that it's at a normal size car.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by shiroiuma on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @11:10PM (#39284395)
>I'm wondering if they could simply mount them lower so that it's at a normal size car.

They certainly could, but they're not going to because that's not the look that truck buyers want. They want to look and be intimidating.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by starttoaster on Saturday February 03, 2024 @04:46PM (#39245076)
Probably makes things worse but I've taken to shining my high beams back at those blinding white LED headlights. I need something to act as a photonic barrier just so I don't drive myself off the road some nights; there aren't too many street lights in my area so my eyes will be conditioned for relative darkness and then all of the sudden somebody comes barreling around a curve with their 6000 lumen tactical blinder headlights. My headlights are just old halogens so I barely stand a chance. I doubt my high beams even pierce through their LED headlights, to be honest. Those things need a dimmer switch.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by anon373839 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:49PM (#39245569)
Passing other cars with headlights has always been uncomfortable if you look at them. Trucks especially, if you’re in a car.

The trick is to briefly direct your gaze toward the right edge of your lane rather than the center, while you pass. You won’t be blinded that way.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by bandyaboot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:48AM (#39248190)
> I need something to act as a photonic barrier just so I don't drive myself off the road some nights

> I doubt my high beams even pierce through their LED headlights, to be honest.

I don’t think this is how light works.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by starttoaster on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:46PM (#39254265)
Pretty sure it is, but maybe you can tell me how I'm wrong. It's by these very principles that people into tactical guns would choose a tactical flashlight for their weapon. The higher the lumens, and more focused the beam, the less likely an assailant's tactical light will shine through yours. It's maybe not using some physics verbiage correctly, but it is basically how light works in practice.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by charles_f on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:20AM (#39262867)
This is an experiment simple enough that you can do at your place to observe that this is wrong.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by starttoaster on Monday February 05, 2024 @03:02PM (#39266318)
I would highly suggest you conduct the same experiment at home, as you said it's quite easy to put together the test environment. Though you can also just google "photonic barrier" and read about it without the experiment. Again, maybe I'm not using proper word choices for things, so someone with a stronger physics background looking at my words through a pedantic lens might find issues with them, which is fair. But basically, if someone shines a light at you, and you shine a light back at them, you are blinded if they hold a significantly stronger light source. You are not blinded if you are holding a significantly stronger light source. And there's an array of in-between states depending on the exact light output of each. This phenomena is referred to as a "photonic barrier." Please show a scientific study or anything that refutes this, because looking around, I find nothing. A large group of people with actual experience running these experiments all had the same observation about photonic barriers, and you just saying "do the experiment at home" doesn't negate them or their observations at all. But perhaps you're on the verge of a break through if you know something we all don't. And I'll go so far as to say that it's possible that you do, but so far my observations have been the same as theirs. In my opinion, that puts the onus on you, not me, to make your case.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by charles_f on Monday February 05, 2024 @06:49PM (#39268825)
Photonic barrier doesn't seem to be a widely standardized or accepted term. The closest to what you're referring to seems to be something to attenuate effect of light on night vision equipment.

But back on topic: light cannot block light. First result on google. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/456409/can-a-lig.... Though I'll concede you a point in that, if their pupils are contracted more because they're using a brighter source, then the impact of your beam on them will be lower than theirs on you. That being said, I'd wager to say that the difference would probably be marginal, given that we're talking about light reflected at night (which would leave you with a pretty big dilation in both LED and halogen) vs. looking directly at a light source.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ironmagma on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:00PM (#39245184)
It's baffling even the police don't care enough to enforce this.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by paulmd on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:10PM (#39246500)
I’ve had police cruisers (Escalade/SUV) high-beam me from the oncoming lane and blind me for the last 50 feet because they didn’t like my (factory stock) low beams. It’s that normalized of a thing / that little of an issue here.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Mountain_Skies on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:12PM (#39245285)
They need equipment that makes objective measurements. Noise tickets and tint tickets are rarely issued anymore due to the social context of those most likely to attract such tickets. Police must use noise meters deployed at a standard distance from the source to issue tickets. That a vehicle's exhaust or radio is annoying isn't enough in the current environment. Same for tint, where a piece of equipment is required to determine a vehicle's light passthrough on its tinted windows. All of this equipment exists and most police have access to it but few want to bother with the hassle and the current social context even with objective measures. Headlights are just another one of these issues where being proactive creates too many troubles. They let the insurance companies fight it out in court over if an accident was caused by improper equipment.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by FirmwareBurner on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:07PM (#39246481)
>but few want to bother with the hassle and the current social context even with objective measures

Did I just read what I think I read?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by jkestner on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:03PM (#39246446)
You can’t measure brightness objectively? You are right, though, about “social context”. If glaring headlights becomes a black-coded thing, the problem will get solved.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ironmagma on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:05PM (#39246465)
Did we read the same comment? The one I read posits that those are the problems that don’t get solved.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by jkestner on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:25PM (#39256279)
I was being flippant. Of course, I know that if superbright headlamps were identified as belonging to another "social context", that wouldn't solve the problem. It'd just lead to selective enforcement, the "right" people being let off with a warning, etc.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ironmagma on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:18PM (#39256565)
Again, is that what you see is happening with tinted windows and loud cars? We must live on different planets because the only thing I see happening with that is a whole lot of nothing. People just drive with tinted windows and loud cars, nothing happens, and the annoying/harmful circumstances of this just continue indefinitely.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by jkestner on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:13PM (#39279879)
True, because it's a characteristic of the privileged now. We both seem to agree that these laws are poorly enforced, but I'm saying that a bunch of these laws, whether headlights or tints, are not for safety but a pretext to stop people who weren't in a privileged class.

The whole point of the annual inspection the state makes me get is shit like window tints, and that's where it should be checked. I don't have a ready solution for aftermarket headlights (especially as I support right to repair), but a start would be regulating what the manufacturers do so it's not a safety issue by default.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ironmagma on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:54PM (#39280442)
In what way is it a characteristic of the privileged to use incorrectly aimed white/blue headlights, or to drive a loud car? There would be some small amount of argument for having tinted windows but in general fixing those things (removing them) costs money, not the other way around.

The problem is too far gone at this point to stop it via random stops. That would have been a good thing to do about 6 years ago. At this point the only solution is recalls and manufacturer regulation.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ironmagma on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:30PM (#39246231)
The last part of your argument makes no sense. Even from a cynical view, it makes no sense for the police to condone something that inhibits their own operations by blinding them with light.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kjkjadksj on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:44PM (#39246705)
The police don’t enforce any traffic laws outside small town speedtrap, USA.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tmnvix on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:14PM (#39245304)
I mentioned this in another thread, but why can't we regulate headlight height? Why do SUVs and pickups trucks have to have headlights that are higher than buses and real trucks?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by MVissers on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:38PM (#39247013)
You could- That’s the case in Europe. But ‘Murica = Freedom so no interest to regulate.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by LanceH on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:46PM (#39247051)
Headlights are regulated between 24 and 54 inches in Texas.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by LeifCarrotson on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:13AM (#39249925)
54 inches is taller than the peak of the roof on a lot of small cars, to say nothing of the trunk lid.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by financypants on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:25PM (#39245392)
Yeah, the brightness needs to be regulated. We’re all going to go night blind at this rate.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by queuebert on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:52PM (#39245596)
Is it legal to mount parabolic mirrors on the front of your car?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:29PM (#39245417)
The good news is that its now legal for the US to have LED Matrix headlights. The new Model 3 has this (among others). You get the brightness of the headlights but it blocks only the area where oncoming cars can see it.

Also, for what you said to make sense you have to do better than speculating that brighter headlights allowing people to see further is outweighed by them causing glare for oncoming drivers. It's entirely possible this is a good safety tradeoff.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tmnvix on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:43PM (#39245523)
That does sound like an improvement.

Still, from a very cursory bit of reading it seems that these are designed to detect other vehicle headlights only. How about pedestrians and cyclists (or even motorcyclists)? I'm really not convinced that these sorts of technical solutions are the best way to address the problem (in the same way that forward and reverse cameras - while helpful - aren't a proper solution to good old fashioned line of sight).

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:49PM (#39245567)
The only way to block line of sight is to erect a wall in the middle of the road so I'm not sure what you want. Pointing the lights is a tradeoff between seeing in front of you and shining the light on other people who are in front of you.

There's no reason matrix headlights can't block light for any reason, the Teslas and other ADAS systems see bikers and pedestrians so I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ivirshup on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:09AM (#39248981)
From their demonstration videos, I don’t think Tesla has proven particularly adept at detecting pedestrians.

And I don’t know that they’ve shown this for pedestrians on the pedestrian path, at distance, at night.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by buffington on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:08AM (#39247789)
Tesla's can "see" humans, cyclists, cars, etc, independent of the headlights.

It's possible that this awareness is what's used as input for the matrix headlights. Either entirely, or in coordination with detecting oncoming headlights.

I'm confused about your mention of technical solutions. What would a non-technical solution look like?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattlondon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:23AM (#39247832)
I don't think it is that smart - matrix headlamps have been around for ages in "dumb" (albeit luxury) cars for years and years in europe
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ta1243 on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:07AM (#39258932)
And they are awful, a significant number do not detect my (old) car, let alone pedestrians, cyclists and horses
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tmnvix on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:57AM (#39248224)
> What would a non-technical solution look like?

Something like ensuring that headlights are lower. I'm not against technical improvements, but I think that simple, less error-prone improvements should be given higher priority.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:44PM (#39254247)
If the headlights can see you, you can see the headlights.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by CaptainMarvel on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:34PM (#39245447)
What about oncoming cyclists?

Pedestrians?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:50PM (#39245575)
Lazy response. No reason that can't happen too. I don't know which systems support that. Research it and report back!
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by twobitshifter on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:57PM (#39245989)
pedestrians and bikes need to be seen so they need to have light shine on them
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:29PM (#39256971)
that was my first thought too.

It's a whole different ballgame having a pedestrian blinded vs having a driver blinded. I'm not saying it's good for a pedestrian, but we have to consider the inherent risk of that vs t hem not being seen at all because the light gives no opportunity to reflect off of them.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by CaptainMarvel on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:58PM (#39246782)
I’ve researched it and I’m reporting back.

The answer is that the technology is advertised as not dazzling oncoming drivers only.

Further, the little explanation of the technology I could find stated it worked by detecting headlights and taillights of cars.

The remaining area will be lit with modern high-intensity beam.

Thus, I conclude that the pedestrians and cyclists will be blinded.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:26PM (#39247252)
What do you suggest we do? Make the headlights dimmer? The current regulations seem to allow between 500-3000 candelas.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by antiframe on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:05AM (#39248261)
I suggest we make headlights be no higher off the ground than 2' and adjusted downwards. If your vehicle is so tall that your lights are under the grill, that's on you. People don't need to be blinded by bright white lights at eye level.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by hunter2_ on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:56AM (#39247977)
I haven't done a whole lot of research, but this [0] says

> matrix headlights, consist of numerous small LED elements and mirrors that can control a light beam in complex ways. This allows the lights to be more precisely aimed, illuminating what the driver needs to see without blinding other motorists, pedestrians, or cyclists.

[0] https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1135084_us-finally-allow...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ta1243 on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:09AM (#39258946)
> Thus, I conclude that the pedestrians and cyclists will be blinded.

That matches my lived experience in the UK. Not that every driver will dip for pedestrians, but matrix ones certainly don't

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by willcipriano on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:29AM (#39248602)
People playing with pogo sticks in the road?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kjkjadksj on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:43PM (#39246695)
I have used automatic highbeams in a toyota and they don’t work. They will think a sign reflected by the headlights is another car and will cut out. Just what you need to happen when you see that deer warning sign on a dark road…
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wilg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:26PM (#39247254)
I'm not talking about automatic highbeams.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kjkjadksj on Tuesday February 13, 2024 @09:32AM (#39357932)
But if they block for oncoming cars then they probably have the same or similar detector systems as the toyota unit I demoed.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by globular-toast on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:53AM (#39249218)
They don't work. All the time I see what looks like flashing as the "clever" automatic headlight tries to work out if I'm there or not. Countless times I've had someone driving behind and hogging the lane to the right of mine and have their full beams shining through my mirrors. Moving into the same lane in front of them causes their headlights to dip, but I shouldn't have to do this (especially because being in that lane is against the highway code).
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Scubabear68 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:31PM (#39245423)
We live in a very rural area, and the most annoying thing is huge pickup trucks with giant light arrays over the cab or on the grill, especially the ones that just look like a wall of light. The blinding effect is tremendous, and it is doubly dangerous in our area because the deer population have exploded. I don’t know if these are legal or the cops just don’t care, either way people use them with impunity.

I think the use case is supposed to be hunting and camping, but these assholes seem to no blinding everyone around them!

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lobsterthief on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:51PM (#39245583)
Sounds like you need to install an even brighter one and turn yours on to remind them what it’s like
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by dboreham on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:41PM (#39246679)
Photon pressure sufficient to curtail their forward progress..
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by undersuit on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:21PM (#39246915)
Fuck it, show em what a Kubelblitz black hole can do to their chrome bumper.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by meyum33 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:02PM (#39246816)
I’ve always thought that we should have a reverse matrix LED headlight: it directs flashing high beam only to incoming cars with flood lights or high beam, while leaving those driving properly unaffected.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by rcyeh on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:33PM (#39246979)
We can do this passively with corner cubes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by r721 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:29AM (#39250032)
This reminded me of a news story:

>A small city in New Zealand plagued by “siren battles” – cars decked out in loudspeakers commonly used in emergency warning systems and often blaring Céline Dion hits – is calling on authorities to step in and end the noise.

>The battles are part of a New Zealand subculture where music enthusiasts cover their cars in up to dozens of industrial speakers, loudhailers and sirens, then compete to have the loudest and clearest sounds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/porirua-siren-...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lukan on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:10AM (#39250305)
"The battles are part of a New Zealand subculture where music enthusiasts cover their cars in up to dozens of industrial speakers, loudhailers and sirens, then compete to have the loudest and clearest sounds."

Those people ain't "music enthusiasts", they are "noise enthusiasts". Music enthusiasts do not intentionally destroy their ears or those of others.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mikhailfranco on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:19AM (#39262845)
No, no, not Céline Dion!

Is that what the US military dished out to Noriega in the Panama invasion? No wonder he surrendered! It was alleged to be 'heavy metal', but is there acoustic evidence? I bet Celine would've got faster results.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by michaelcampbell on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:57AM (#39250652)
Because the people who compensate for ??? by buying a humongous mall-crawler truck will totally understand and be sympathetic when having their outrageous "lookit me" type behavior reflected back at them.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by XorNot on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:32PM (#39245863)
AFAIK they're illegal on public roads. So is using fog lights unless there's actually fog.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sublinear on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:36PM (#39246652)
This is a tricky one to research.

From what I can tell (in the USA) it's not necessarily illegal to drive with the fog lights on at all times. The main requirement for all headlights anywhere is that they're positioned and aimed correctly.

Specific states or regions may technically have restrictions, but it seems pointless to enforce if it's a stock vehicle that meets the requirements. High beams are way worse than the typical fog lights. I don't think most people should have to worry about their fog lights unless they're aftermarket.

Reminds me of those signs that say "no engine braking". They're specifically referring to jake brakes on commercial vehicles, not dropping a gear on a normal car or truck.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mc32 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:51PM (#39247385)
If you're going down a long incline, trucks should use jake brakes. It sucks being behind truckers who only use brakes and the thing overheats so much you can smell it --they're the truckers who end up on the runaway ramps.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Zak on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:59AM (#39250237)
I think your comment is attracting downvotes because unmuffled engine brakes are loud, and those signs are usually placed when people live near the road and find the noise obnoxious. I think it doesn't apply to trucks where the compression brake has a muffler.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by justin66 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:41PM (#39246680)
High beams are infinitely more damaging to another driver's vision than fog lamps.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lttlrck on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:07PM (#39246839)
Fogs lamps are worse for the person using them than oncoming traffic. This is due to the way the light is focused. It's directed downwards to avoid the light reflecting straight back into your eyes off the fog or snow. This is what makes them different. However it affects your ability to see far even if you have your high beams on.

I remember reading about this in an article written by a rally driver in ADAC magazine maybe 20 years ago now.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by justin66 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:20PM (#39246911)
If we're talking about our own vision rather than another driver's, yes, fog lamps might detract a bit from our night vision. The truth is, if you're using them in an actual fog, your distance vision is fucked anyway, and it's your regular headlights (which do not power off when the fog lamps are on) which are doing the damage to your night vision, since they're focused at eye level and reflecting back. The fog lamps aren't a big worry in that regard.

> I remember reading about this in an article written by a rally driver in ADAC magazine maybe 20 years ago now.

I've seen those arrays of fog lamps installed on rally cars, and I'm not sure what they're about but they're a pretty different paradigm than anything that comes installed by the factory on a passenger car.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:17PM (#39247204)
Re: rally car lighting

They're not the same light pattern as fog lights (well, not all of them). Some are "pencil" beams that reach far, some are closer to fog beams for close-in. Coverage is the name of the game.

They need them because the goal is to be driving as fast as possible, so you need as much light as you can get onto and down the road.

The reason they're on pods on the hood is because they're removable. They only put them on when needed, because they're very expensive and you don't want them getting damaged when not in use.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by justin66 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:24PM (#39247244)
Ah, this makes sense. I've heard about the phenomenon of drivers of regular (not rally) cars driving so fast that they outrun the range of the headlights, such that even with perfect reaction time they are not able to stop or react to something on the road ahead. Simply increasing the brightness of factory high-beams must only get you so far.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mydogmuppet on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:39PM (#39257031)
Rally car lighting systems have more in common with aircraft lights. The landing lights on a 757 are standard GE units with 600w, 28v, bulbs, costing $50, that produce 750k candle power. Narrow beam. As bright as the sun. Wider beamed taxi and runway turnoff lights still use 450w.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by justin66 on Monday February 05, 2024 @12:16AM (#39257608)
[delayed]
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by jerrysievert on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:15PM (#39246883)
I use my (factory installed) fog lights only when the conditions are bad enough that I need a downward facing light to be able to see the lanes or obstructions. mine turn off if I turn on high beams, which do not have the very close reflections. they make a significant difference in specific circumstances. why I see some people drive with them on under all conditions, I will never know.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by anonymouskimmer on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:36PM (#39246997)
I discovered the fog lights on my new-to-me vehicle recently and use the lower ones (the upper ones are burned out and need replacing) at night to illuminate the near road better and make it easier to see and avoid holes in the road.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by dboreham on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:42PM (#39246686)
USA is a country of "freedom" where the cops pretty much never, ever enforce such rules, if they do exist.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by jerrysievert on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:12PM (#39246865)
it seems to depend on state - some are no more than 4 headlights at a time, where fog lights would be main headlights plus fog lights, as opposed to main headlights plus brights.

most laws appear to be based on direction and aim.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tyingq on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:28AM (#39250934)
Many cars have both daytime running lights and fog lights in the same enclosure. And depending on settings (auto vs manual, etc), the DRLs might stay on at night. And cars vary a lot in configuration. It would take a lot for the police to accurately recognize and ticket people with fog lights on when there's no fog.
[dead]
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by robertlagrant on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:10PM (#39246093)
> Go back to the city

Why do you think they're from the city?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by importantbrian on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:28PM (#39247264)
That's wild. I wonder if you just have a couple of jerks in your area. I grew up in a rural area and my parents still live out there, and I cannot ever remember someone driving on the road with their light bars on. I used to have one on my jeep. Anyone who has them knows they're being a jerk if they're driving with it on the road.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Scubabear68 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:31PM (#39247284)
Judging by this behavior, some others I won’t go into, and local Facebook wars, we have a significant concentration of jerks without a doubt.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by davkan on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:53AM (#39247965)
In the Rockies you see loads of vehicles with light bars. Never see them lit up on the road. Maybe it comes down to local policing? Cops around here aren’t likely to appreciate non-locals driving with lights on. Could just be culture though.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by JohnFen on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:25AM (#39262932)
> Cops around here aren’t likely to appreciate non-locals driving with lights on.

I hope they equally don't appreciate it when locals do the same.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by davkan on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:42AM (#39263197)
I don’t think the locals are likely to do it. Good way to get everyone in town to know you for being a tool.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by JohnFen on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:51AM (#39263328)
That's a better set of locals than the ones around here, then!
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by davkan on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:54AM (#39263378)
Probably in that way alone!
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by bogota on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:56AM (#39247974)
I would like to think so but i saw the same crap driving through the middle of a Denver on I70 recently. I almost had to pull over it was so bright I couldn’t see but no one did anything as I have become accustomed to.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by rco8786 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:14AM (#39249644)
It's super common in the south nowadays. I grew up similarly, and had light bars on my trucks/all my friends did/etc. But we weren't driving around town with them on.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by nyjah on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:08AM (#39247787)
I was gonna mention the exact same thing. Wild times in big trucks. Their wheels and mirrors all stick out to the edge of the lane too.

I find the sales listings on these trucks hilarious tho. They are the ultimate custom McMansions, listed with extremely high premiums for all the custom work, that essentially never sell. If you are in the north a great description to add is “Texas truck” or really any state south of where you are. They also commonly have well over 200k miles. It’s a crazy phenomena.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by forgetfreeman on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:33AM (#39250474)
The funny part is you can punch these truck owners right in the daddy issues just by pulling up next to them in a base model truck with actual dirt in the wheel wells and a ladder rack on. Using a truck to do actual work > aftermarket pageantry and they damn well know it.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:55AM (#39251918)
Meh. I know blue collar mexicans who save up and get trucks like that because they like it. Some people just like it.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by nyjah on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:17PM (#39252156)
Forgetfreeman isn’t talking about the blue collar Mexicans…

I will say tho, the base model trucks and just about any trucks aren’t made for work anymore. The boxes are like 6ft long as opposed to 10. The tow power on base models isn’t great. Work vehicles today are becoming more and more those vans. Not saying work trucks are obsolete, just they aren’t what they used to be.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by forgetfreeman on Monday February 05, 2024 @02:23AM (#39258275)
You aren't wrong. Those of us with work to do will be significantly better off when fashion moves on to some other type of vehicle.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by CraigJPerry on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:17AM (#39249022)
Light bar money for on road use is misguided money - there isn’t a light solution that can beat night vision systems.

You get an infrared camera and on the screen a coloured bounding box is drawn over each identified pedestrian or animal etc. Green no threat, red sounds an audible alarm so you don’t need to drive looking at the screen to get benefit of it.

It sees things that just cannot be seen by projecting a light source from near you, no matter how bright.

EDIT: see from 2:25 in https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqCDjxYFVc

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by paulgerhardt on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:05AM (#39249593)
Unlike sending engines for cryptographic cyphers across nation state lines, night vision is absolutely one of those things ITAR cares about. And the number of loops holes and exemptions Audi had to apply for made the project financially unprofitable to the point of moving to always on high beam DLP style headlights.

Retrofitting one system in my car which had the option code was a yak shave.

Most automotive systems get by this by limiting night vision to 8fps(!). Similar to how GPS was limited to 100m accuracy in the first civilian models.

What blows my mind is one can get Chinese models off Taobao with 60fps for 1/10th the price of US products like FLIR.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by vigilans on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:14AM (#39249640)
That last part would indicate that the restrictions are utterly moronic if one were to reason. At the very least they need to be relaxed so technology that's readily available to end consumers worldwide isn't restricted.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by paulgerhardt on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:32AM (#39249736)
Yes and no.

A benefit of those same restrictions means TSMC is building foundries in the US for a change.

GaAs sensors are awesome. Combine those chips with ML optimized compute on a silicon interposer and drone warfare gets a hockey stick in adoption.

As civilians we get functional self driving cars via trickle down.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Zak on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:48AM (#39250159)
ITAR isn't, or shouldn't be about economic protectionism; it's for restricting the flow of weapons of war.

If the US government wants to encourage domestic chip production, it has other ways to incentivize that.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by vigilans on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:58PM (#39254944)
ITAR blocks export, not import. It has nothing to do with TSMC building fabs here. $50B in incentives might have something to do with that.

And like sister comment says, ITAR is not about industrial or economic policy. It’s about maintaining a qualitative edge in weaponry. How is there a qualitative edge when you can buy the restricted components freely from China?

Just noticed the other comment on GP saying they’re restricted through a different list (EAR). It serves the same purpose so I’m leaving my response as is.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by fragmede on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:55PM (#39253734)
https://youtu.be/UAeJHAFjwPM

There are three types of night vision, and the consumer grade active illumination stuff using infrared light is covered by EAR (Department of Commerce’s Export Administration Regulations) instead of ITAR (which is still significant, but less strict). Which doesn't detract from your point, which is that night vision is hamstrung by regulations. With all the advances in technology, the consumer grade stuff should really be more accessible because it would save lives if drivers could see better in the dark.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by michaelcampbell on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:55AM (#39250639)
Just FYI you can embed a timestamp in youtube url's. For your example, note the end of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=kQqCDjxYFVc&t=2m...
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by carlmr on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:15AM (#39262765)
That's amazing, if they could project this on a HUD you'd have solved the problem basically.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mycall on Monday February 05, 2024 @07:23PM (#39269136)
> You get an infrared camera and on the screen a coloured bounding box is drawn over each identified pedestrian or animal etc.

This might be a good use for that new transparent TV technology.. Infared HUD in 4K.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by m463 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:13AM (#39249637)
The main issue with huge pickups is that the headlights are so high compared to other cars that aiming them down is less useful than cars.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by michaelcampbell on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:54AM (#39250623)
> cops just don’t care

ding ding ding. Not much revenue there, and it's not protecting rich people's wealth, so...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by reggybbq11 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:58AM (#39251255)
I’m sure more funding will solve the issue
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by nozzlegear on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:01PM (#39251978)
I was blinded to the point of nearly driving off the road by one of these over the holidays here in rural Iowa. It’s the first time I’ve ever encountered someone actually using the light bar at night while driving 60mph down the road. To say that I couldn’t see anything at all is an understatement. I tried to keep my eyes on the road, look down and to the right to avoid the lights, but the closer it got the more my field of view it took up. I genuinely thought he was going to hit us because I couldn’t tell where the truck was at or where my car was at, it was like a train coming down a tunnel.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by UniverseHacker on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:37PM (#39253582)
Those are for navigating 4x4 trails in the dark, and are illegal to use on public roads. Where I live many vehicles have them, but I have never once seen them used on a public road.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by HumblyTossed on Saturday February 03, 2024 @05:52PM (#39245592)
What I hate most are the misaligned retro fits. But honestly I completely agree with you.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by SoftTalker on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:43PM (#39246697)
The retrofits (probably completely unapproved chinese-made garbage purchased on Amazon) are awful, but the stock LED lighting on newer cars is too bright as well. Even if it's normally directed down, if you're approaching a car as it crests a hill you'll get a dazzling blinding flash. Older halogen headlights don't do this.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kube-system on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:53PM (#39246755)
Some places also require that bright headlights are auto-leveling to mitigate this. But many headlights in the US are fixed, and don't move.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by loceng on Saturday February 03, 2024 @06:39PM (#39245894)
More car crashes, more broken lights - more sales for white head lights! Profit!
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lumost on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:05PM (#39246055)
In the early-2010s I was driving a budget car from 1995 (a ford escort). When white LEDs became the norm, I’d often be in the situation of trying to drive into the shadow cast by my car from the headlights of the other car.

I’m still shocked that regulations haven’t put lower limits on headlight brightness.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mcculley on Saturday February 03, 2024 @07:48PM (#39246354)
> Since then, the number of severe crashes has climbed. It is hard to say exactly why.

I (unfortunately) have been doing a lot of driving on highways at night during the last four years. There is a noticeable trend in people watching video while driving. It is really obvious at night. This has obvious outcomes.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by kurthr on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:46PM (#39246716)
Exactly, even a Tesla doesn't drive worse than a driver on social media.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Yhippa on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:52PM (#39247388)
I was sitting at a stoplight and looked over at the car next door and saw there was some video playing on the dashboard in front of the instrument cluster. I thought it was one of those completely digital dashboards that was doing some kind of animation, but the dude just propped his cell phone in front of it and was watching some kind of content.

At least he was stopped. I've seen people watching Netflix on their phones on a mount or something while driving. Unbelievable.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wheaties on Saturday February 03, 2024 @08:09PM (#39246493)
This is a regulatory issue. There are far better lighting used in EU and from the same auto manufacturers. They have pushed for these in the US but the regulations are slow.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by LanceH on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:52PM (#39247070)
Right now, emergency vehicles seem to be in some competition to get the most and brightest lights on them. It's near impossible to see while driving past them.

And yes, you should be driving past them slowly, but with everyone slowing down at once, that presents its own problem of trying to avoid slow downs and merges while being blinded by the emergency vehicles.

Or being blinded by them in a parking lot.

Lately, I've noticed a few turning from flashing into solid light, which is somewhat better.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by drc500free on Saturday February 03, 2024 @09:57PM (#39247101)
I worked in the industry recently, with most leading carriers on how they generate LTVs for potential customers from expected frequency, severity, and lifetime.

During COVID shutdowns, there was a massive drop in frequency (obviously, hardly anyone was driving) but a significant uptick in severity. This was attributed to higher speeds with emptier roads.

After re-opening, frequency is significantly higher per driver than before. So is severity. Everyone I talked to in the industry was convinced this was due to loss of skill during shutdown as well as people driving much more aggressively. This is on top of the serious increase in parts due to supply chain issues.

I find it strange that this isn't discussed in the article when it's a pretty widely-held belief in the industry.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by hx8 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:10PM (#39247498)
As in outsider of the auto industry this sounds like a classic blame-the-customer attitude that exists in many industries. The auto industry attributes the increase of severity and frequency of auto accidents to an external party so they share zero liability.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by noirbot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:45AM (#39247929)
That doesn't seem like it follows though. Most people are driving the same car they were driving in 2019. It's not like the auto industry went and changed everyone's cars and repaved the roads or something. If this was some long term trend, then sure, easier to see how you could explain it with changes in headlights or ride height or some other factor of how cars are designed.

A dramatic increase in amount and severity of accidents after a major world-impacting event like the pandemic seems like exactly the sort of thing that would make sense to be some change in the way people drive. This isn't "Oh, the users just hate the new Slack design. What idiots." For 90+ percent of the US, nothing has changed about the cars or roads in the last 4 years any more than the 4 years before that, and yet the outcomes of driving have changed.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Kalium on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:02AM (#39247997)
How do you imagine the auto insurance industry is driving this change in customer behavior and outcomes? I cannot imagine any way in which it's the fault of the insurers, but I know that this is merely a failure of my imagination.

Bear in mind that the auto insurance industry is quite distinct from the auto manufacturing industry.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by whimsicalism on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:41AM (#39248408)
I doubt the auto industry is to blame for increases in crashes, which seems to be the implication of your comment.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wodenokoto on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:06AM (#39248725)
Fair point, but how did cars change during the pandemic?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ImPostingOnHN on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:07AM (#39250725)
Due to electrification, I imagine the average weight of a new car is increasing, which causes more damage. Previously non-severe crashes becomes severe crashes.

Due to increasingly pedestrian-unfriendly designs, like "grr I'm a bad boy" grills on trucks, crashes becomes more damaging to what they crash into. More, previously non-severe crashes becomes severe crashes.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wodenokoto on Monday February 05, 2024 @02:42AM (#39258368)
I'm not sure I'm convinced that consumers came out of the pandemic with a large change in car types.

The purported timeline is: Pandemic hits, people stop driving, incidents falls drastically. Pandemic stops, people starts driving again, but incidents and severity increase drastically compared to pre pandemic.

The companies are saying internally "people forgot how to drive properly", which granted, sounds weird. But it also sounds weird that people upgraded their cars, while not driving them, or that there was a huge spike in car sales as people upgraded post pandemic.

Sales data doesn't suggest that consumers went out and changed their fleet [1]

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ImPostingOnHN on Monday February 05, 2024 @09:04AM (#39261293)
>I'm not sure I'm convinced that consumers came out of the pandemic with a large change in car types.

Well, first of all it doesn't need to be what any person is convinced is "large", it just needs to be nonzero. Second of all, it's not about customers, it's about manufacturers. As your own data indicates[0], a nonzero number of people replaced their car during that time period, just like in every other time period. If more people choose electric than did decades ago, there will be more electric cars than decades ago. And there are[1]! Electrification is increasing, therefore weight is increasing, therefore crash severity is increasing.

So the timeline is, each year, more and more people are buying electric cars, and it looks like severity increased, too. Do we have data on people's ability to drive over time? Maybe, but I haven't seen it, so that's what seems unconvincing so far. We definitely have data on vehicle weight over time, though.

[0]: "Sales data doesn't suggest that consumers went out and changed their fleet" – by my viewing of the data, it shows that a lot of consumers, in fact, went out and bought a car during that period. Millions did, tens of millions even, and it only takes a single car difference to affect the population average.

[1]: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-12/charging-into-the-fut...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:15PM (#39247194)
I dont know. I only drive once every three months or so. and every once in a while Ill go on a huge roadtrip across the country. I have never noticed any loss in driving skill.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lostlogin on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:19PM (#39247213)
Assuming you are talking about a loss in your own skills, isn’t this exactly what the OP is describing? If people perceived a change in their own abilities, the problem would likely not exist.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by darkerside on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:26PM (#39247257)
This, and perhaps parent's driving skill has just been poor for a very long time now. No drop, just sitting at the bottom.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Melting_Harps on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:44PM (#39247691)
> This, and perhaps parent's driving skill has just been poor for a very long time now. No drop, just sitting at the bottom.

I'm not trying to be mean, but the adage in poker of spotting the fool at the table here applies. And as a person who rides bicycles, motorcycles as well as drives cars, and has driven in the EU with much stricter driving requirements I'd say there has been a massive drop in aptitude over all.

So much so that I just want to live a life that allows me to be car-free now. EVs are nice, but having everything I want within walking distance is much more preferable.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by fransje26 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:16AM (#39248770)
> EVs are nice, but having everything I want within walking distance is much more preferable.

Come back to Europe.. ;-)

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:25PM (#39256950)
that's not been my experience, maybe you just live amongst morons?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:26AM (#39249716)
Its a car. You turn the wheel and press the two buttons.

I've beaten spelunky 1, and 2. Im also sporty and coordinated. I know what good motor skills look and feel like, and what being bad at something feels like.

If there is a suspicion of skill loss in the population, i dont know why so many people in this thread would blindly accept that. We should all put our good boy skeptic scientist hats on.

Are the changes in chrash severity and frequency even for all types of people? Doubtful. In what age ranges and occupations are the biggest changes in.

"People crash more now because sudden population wide skill loss" doesnt even pass the basic sanity test. Im gonna need some evidence.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sokoloff on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:02AM (#39249863)
> Its a car. You turn the wheel and press the two buttons.

Given that summary, I'm not surprised that you cannot detect any degradation in your driving skill during a period of not practicing.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by noirbot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:41AM (#39251066)
I don't think it's degradation any more than my skills at golf or basketball degrade in the 6 months between times I play either of them. I'm the baseline level of good enough that I'm competent, but I definitely don't have the skills of someone who practices either daily.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:42AM (#39251758)
Right, and you dont have to be a pro stunt driver to make it to work every day without dying. I honestly dont know what hes getting at.

Actually I think most people are significantly safer driving in a way that completely removes opportunity for skill expression. Waiting for other drivers, going normal speeds, not doing something else while driving, etc. Driving should be pretty unskillfull and boring if safe.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sokoloff on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:09PM (#39252712)
> definitely don't have the skills of someone who practices either daily

And that is exactly the premise of one proposed mechanism by which serious accident rates (and insured losses) may have increased during a period when a great many people who previously practiced something daily then did not do so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39247101

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:26PM (#39256604)
We get the concept, theres just no given evidence and it doesnt pass the smell test. I havent ridden a bike in years i bet im exactly as "skilled" as the last time i was on it. Driving is just not a skill you get worse at if you dont do it for two years. Ive done it, and felt no difference.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:24PM (#39256945)
> I havent ridden a bike in years i bet im exactly as "skilled" as the last time i was on it.

I doubt that but the question is whether or not you're competent enough to ride a bike and how quickly can you get back to that level of skill.

We all know the answer is that it wouldn't take long at all, it's literally why the phrase "just like riding a bike" exists.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:10PM (#39257210)
What do you mean you doubt that. Thats obnoxious. this is simply a fact. Ive got a bike downstairs I could go ride it, one handed, no handed, pop a wheelie just like 15 years ago. My dad is in his fifties and i bet the same applies for him but hed complain about his wrists.

If the skill level takes ten seconds to reachieve I dont really consider that skill loss. Same for driving. Americans spend an insane amount of time driving, tens of thousands of hours from a young age. This is just not a skill that obviously weakens in any meaningful way if you dont do it for a year.

I need hard evidence, not just your unreasonable contrarianism.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by noirbot on Monday February 05, 2024 @12:20AM (#39257627)
I mean, maybe you're just better at it, but I was a competitive mountain biker 10+ years ago and the last time I tried to ride a bike a couple years ago, if I'd taken my hands off the handlebars I probably would have crashed in seconds.

We're all just asserting anecdotes here about how easy/hard things are. I tend to agree that the act of driving a car isn't so hard that people forgot how to physically drive over the pandemic. What I think is the much more likely thing that changed is the habits of awareness of other drivers. The instincts of which corners have low visibility or your general sense of how fast people drive on various roads. Driving is ultimately a social activity in some way. Most people who get in accidents aren't just failing to "hit the right button" on their car, they're trying to drive well and avoid something unexpected.

It seems entirely reasonable to me that some number of people kept driving daily during the pandemic on mostly empty roads with mostly absent rules enforcement and picked up some bad habits. Maybe that's speeding, or running red lights, or being on their phone while driving because there's less risk of running into another car. Then as people who didn't do that started driving again, their memories from 6-18 months before didn't match the current driving culture any more. Different people adapted in different ways, but the bounds of what's "normal" has changed somewhat.

I don't think I'm worse at physically driving now, but I have definitely been surprised by drivers running red lights or being overly deferential to cross traffic a fair bit in the last couple years. I've adapted, but I'm definitely driving with a different mindset now than I used to.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Monday February 05, 2024 @03:45AM (#39258766)
could be phone use, could be drugs, we dont know but i guess im wrong while skeptically agnostic about the given assumed cause of the issue despite lack of evidence. How about aliens. How about ghosts. I think ghosts have been crashing peoples cars.

What that sounds implausable to you? Seems unlikely huh? You require hard evidence?

How dare you disagree with me im a pro ghost watcher for ten years.

Not convinced? Sounds ridiculous. Exactly. Youre not gonna convince me people lose driving skill over a year. You can speculate to infinity. We need real evidence. If you dont have it, weve got nothing.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:35AM (#39259152)
only the young are arrogant enough to think they can go years without practicing a skill and never lose any edge.

I don't really care what you claim, it's not true.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by wegfawefgawefg on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:50AM (#39251856)
Thats vague and comes off condescending, and also just doesnt make any sense. Care to elaborate?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by noirbot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:47AM (#39247938)
Isn't that just reflecting that you have the exact amount of skill of someone who drives every 3 months? What OP is talking about is people who likely drove for an hour or more every day suddenly barely driving more than a couple times a week for a year or more, and are now back to driving daily. That's completely different from just not driving much all the time.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by qup on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:58AM (#39247981)
I've noticed truck drivers in particular have gotten much worse. They used to be overall very good. For the last 5 years or so, noticeably worse.

Everyone else was already bad.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by musicale on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:46AM (#39248432)
I'd like to see slow trucks drive in the right lane rather than the left lane, and I'd like them to stay within the lane lines whenever possible rather than randomly drifting across them.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by TeMPOraL on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:03AM (#39248713)
Stupid question, but to this day I can't get the idea of overtaking. Any given stretch of the road has a speed limit. That limit is well below the maximum capability of almost any car on the road. From the POV of traffic regulations, you'd expect drivers on either lane to drive at that limit. What is, then, the point of overtaking? The cars are swapping places back and forth, but otherwise are (supposed to be) moving at the same speed. Is it a way for some to work around speed limits (by always overtaking forward, never being overtaken), or just a pointless dance to keep drivers from being bored and falling asleep behind the wheel?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mjevans on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:49AM (#39249191)
Drivers are supposed to keep right (outside/slower lanes) except to pass. That's the law in WA state and probably in most parts of the country. As far as I know it's also the law in other countries too; offhand on the Autobon.

In theory, the lanes further left should be at about the speed limit and the lanes to the right could be for slower long haul or dangerous loads driving, such as large and heavy trucks which might have a lower speed limit on some sections of road. In practice, please keep right except to pass and don't cause a traffic hazard trying to enforce slowness upon speeders with a rolling roadblock.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tomp on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:51AM (#39249204)
Yeah one wishes it would actually work like that.

Unfortunately there’s many drivers that drive below the (already low) speed limits.

Add to that curvy road and it becomes much worse (you can drive much closer to the limit by accelerating and braking dynamically).

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Geisterde on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:18AM (#39249665)
I would conceed that keeping drivers awake is understated, though, the speed limits are too slow for modern cars. I comfortably do 15 mph over (freeway driving when road conditions support, I dont speed on surface streets), and id do 20-25 if it didnt move the penalty to jailtime.

I do this to save time, it cuts ~25% from my commute. My only recommendations are that slow traffic keep right (which is still me, traffic moves fast here), and be mindful of the flow of traffic. The most dangerous aspect of speeding is the speed limit, some people are inclined to follow the speed limit whatever it is, and become a serious hazzard when people are trying to cut through traffic at twice (or faster) that speed.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by CorrectHorseBat on Monday February 05, 2024 @06:04AM (#39259798)
Where do you live that speed limits are only 45mph on freeways?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Geisterde on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:10AM (#39262701)
Speed limits are 55, sorry, sometimes I have a case of shiftwork brain. Northern virginia, if you watch those "idiots in cars videos" then youve seen these roads.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by noirbot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:38AM (#39251046)
Overtaking doesn't happen as much on long haul stretches of highway, in accordance with what you'd assume. Mostly it's either passing a truck that's going under the limit, or because a truck is slower going up an incline. Once you're in a more occupied area though, a lot of overtaking is people going at the speed limit passing local traffic that's merging on/off the highway at lower speeds.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by blitzar on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:00AM (#39248482)
80% of drivers think they are safer than the average driver
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by giantrobot on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:54PM (#39247728)
Just anecdata, it really seems like drivers are significantly worse after COVID than before. Not just on main roads but on side streets and parking lots. I can't say if it's due to driving less during shutdowns or a confluence of other issues but people seem to drive shockingly worse.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ikr678 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:46AM (#39248178)
Smartphone use. App use while driving, wearing airpods and the like, more vehicles with monitors, more integration between phone apps and car entertainment systems to fiddle around with?

I have defintely seen private drivers watching tiktok on the highway, and ride share drivers either trying to manage jobs across multiple smartphones, or spending their shift in a discord/group call with some friends.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Root_Denied on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:38AM (#39248637)
It's this plus a distinct lack of enforcement.

I've driven in 3 major cities over the last decade (LA, SF, Seattle) and in all of them the local police departments have been ignoring a lot of traffic infractions that they would have pulled people over for before. The shift seemed to happen after there was that "Defund the Police" call and the BLM protests.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mschuster91 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:10AM (#39249908)
> The shift seemed to happen after there was that "Defund the Police" call and the BLM protests.

No surprise there, it's not the first time police unions have decided to just not enforce any laws at all to get politicians to do what they want.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by zzleeper on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:11AM (#39250761)
As much as I would want, I wouldn't place all the blame on the police. Just here in Virginia, we are struggling with:

https://www.moheblegal.com/blog/2021/08/new-va-law-prohibits...

> In March 2021, a new Virginia law went into effect that prohibits law enforcement officers from making traffic stops for certain minor offenses.

This law prohibits police from stopping you if you are e.g. missing a taillight or a brake light, which for me feels insane.

There are similar things in DC/MD as far as I can recall

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by reggybbq11 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:56AM (#39251235)
They had to stop cops from pulling people over for minor infractions because cops couldn’t stop themselves from killing people at traffic stops over things like broken tail lights.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by AuryGlenz on Monday February 05, 2024 @02:35AM (#39258327)
The same thing happened in Minneapolis, along with this:

‘The City Attorney’s Office will stop prosecuting tickets for driving after suspension when the only basis for the suspension was a failure to pay fines or fees and there was no accident or other egregious driving behavior that would impact public safety.’”

As someone who only drives in Minneapolis every few months the change that happened around 2020 was ridiculous. I regularly saw cars doing well over 100 in the city when I had never seen that before.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by LorenPechtel on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:25PM (#39267416)
Disagree. BLM caused the politicians to throw the police under the bus before it was determined if they were actually in the wrong or not. Of course the police are going to be more interested in avoiding possible incidents and less interested in going after trouble.

BLM got what it "wanted"--there's a definite drop in police shootings where they were active. But it was a cat's paw result: The increase in criminal black deaths was far greater than the decrease in police black deaths.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by nothercastle on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:51AM (#39251180)
Yeah Seattle I see so many people driving without plates now. Lack of enforcement is a real issue. They are simply not enough police as they all quit after the Riots
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by giantrobot on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:57PM (#39255395)
> Smartphone use. App use while driving, wearing airpods and the like, more vehicles with monitors, more integration between phone apps and car entertainment systems to fiddle around with?

These are all likely factors which is why I can't just claim everyone forgot how to drive during COVID shutdowns. At the same time the shocking incompetence I've seen (anecdata) the past year or two haven't seemed to involve people fiddling with distractions but just being hyper aggressive shitheads.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by musicale on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:43AM (#39248416)
I just wish that vehicles - especially large ones - would stay within the lane lines unless they are actively changing lanes.

I've also noticed many cars with tinted windshields and front seat windows, which probably reduces visibility.

I understand why they might do it though given the blinding LED headlights. ;-)

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by dageshi on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:58AM (#39248697)
Is this present in other countries? You would expect it to be so if it's partially the result of lockdowns as plenty of other countries had those.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by 331c8c71 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:59AM (#39249250)
I don't feel there has been a difference where I live in Europe.

And my personal experience is that the driving culture in the US (east coast) is more aggressive to start with (except, maybe, sparsely populated remote areas).

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Melting_Harps on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:39PM (#39247672)
> This is on top of the serious increase in parts due to supply chain issues.

I understand you work in the insurance Industry, but I worked in the auto Industry before and after COVID and just went through 2 total loss claims with my insurance and handled a lot of these third party warranty policies for my customers and think I have a more nuanced perspective than your own as mine is multi-dimensional.

I can tell you that while it's true people may be driving more aggressively, not after but during COVID as police weren't pulling people as frequently due to fear of contamination coupled with emptier streets, but the real reason claims are being declared a total loss (resulting in higher costs) is exactly because of the disruption in the supply chain and the shortage of parts kept in inventory for even 5 year old vehicles.

After dieselgate, Mitsubishi US was absorbed by Nissan US, who has been undergoing a great deal of pain since the ousting of Carlos Ghosn who left it in economic shambles with bad financing policies that resulted in lots of cost cuts during and many more after the Renault feud. Trying to get parts for a 2017 Mitsubishi after 2020 in the US was futile as the two dealerships merged together.

It was often the case that you were better off purchasing parts from Hyundai for shared platforms as getting them from Japan were difficult if not impossible as they had severe COVID restrictions and the plants stopped and the catalogs/inventory seemingly vanished in a matter of months during the first year of COVID.

I have had many battles with submitting adjusted insurance claims for service/parts that made me think the burden of a owning an imperfect new car was best solved by selling it back to the dealership at the inflated offer they were paying back then and getting a 'good enough' used car from us or elsewhere given how much time was being wasted dealing with these policies. One customer I inherited had a 3 year old VW CC was using our loaner for over 6 months waiting for an ECU and a harness which was covered by parts and labour by VW, and this was in 2023!

My Italian motorcycle was broken into and it's main wiring loom was ripped apart in the process, and declared a total loss: the cost to repair and replace was projected to be about $1500, which is reasonable but the problem there was over a 2 year waiting list and it was unlikely to ever be found since the part was made by Ducati before it was absorbed by VW Audi Group and was impossible to be found in even the HQ in Bologna according to owners because demand for it was low as it was known to be a defective part and best to solve by swapping out with parts from more widely available Suzuki models but meant changing everything from the stator onward to work reliably which easily tripled the initial estimate. Add to the fact that this bike had low sales figures outside of Italy and I took the settlement offer and gave up on ever owning one again.

The same thing happened to my much less rare Japanese motorcycle, which was much older and less expensive but the same thing occurred: deemed fixable but no parts can be found so is declared a total loss.

My insurance rates just went up by 25% 2 months ago, despite them not having gone up during these two events (over 6 months ago and months after my policy renewal) or even after 2 tickets several years back as I have an otherwise clean record and I'm beyond the risk age.

The response given to me by my insurer was that 'everything is going up' and that servicing my policy was naturally also subject to a price increase but was not a direct result of the aforementioned reasons which makes me think that in fact no... insurance in the US is not too cheap but incredibly convoluted and subject to arbitrary price increases.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by drc500free on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:36PM (#39252373)
> I understand you work in the insurance Industry, but I worked in the auto Industry before and after COVID and just went through 2 total loss claims with my insurance and handled a lot of these third party warranty policies for my customers and think I have a more nuanced perspective than your own as mine is multi-dimensional.

I'm a dilettante who passes through industries for a few years at a time, so I have no doubt your perspective is more nuanced! I may have understated how much impact that supply chain issues are, I'm going through a similar issue.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by pyuser583 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:24AM (#39248339)
This is purely anecdotal, but driver quality seemed to go down during the BLM protests of 2020. Kind of like the “f** the police” was being applied to traffic enforcement.

Do you know if the timing was significant? Did anything significant happen with driving stats happen in June of 2020?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by buro9 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:59AM (#39248480)
A global pandemic and less driving? I'm not sure why you'd need to pick out BLM in any way here
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by pyuser583 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:13PM (#39253922)
Because, in my purely anecdotal experience, drivers got much much worse in early June of 2020.

Not April 2020. Not July 2020. June (and very late May) of 2020.

Part of the issue was that lots of roads were blocked. Both protestors and police were blocking roads. Large portions of downtown were shut down. Bus services were mostly canceled. And the police were very very stretched thin.

So there are reasons other than “attitude” why these protests might be affecting traffic.

But it was shocking how bad drivers got so quickly. It didn’t seem gradual.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by npunt on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:10AM (#39248746)
Huge missing variable is cognitive impairment from covid. It may affect up to ~20-30% of people several months after getting it [1][2][3], but whatever the exact rate, it's an amount that is orders of magnitude more than the accident rate.

"The most frequent symptoms seem to affect memory, attention, and concentration" [4].

We generally suck at assessing our level of impairment (see drunk drivers), so if we're used to driving a certain way and no longer have the capacity to do so safely, eventually something's going to happen to some of us.

Given the magnitude of ongoing covid infections and the still very low per capita accident rate, this could be the single best explanation of an uptick in accidents. It's not a surprise it's overlooked though, as statistically we don't really track cognitive abilities except in education contexts and individually we tend to downplay or ignore any changes in how we think. Cognition is largely invisible as a measure.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/upshot/long-covid-disabil... or https://archive.ph/RnBZ2

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8715665/

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8798975/

[4] https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-075387

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by LorenPechtel on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:28PM (#39267467)
I hadn't thought of that aspect but I strongly suspect this is the cause.

If a change happens gradually you're not going to notice it until there's some glaring indication of it. And you often won't notice that things haven't returned to baseline when you know there was a deviation. (Observation: Long Covid is more common amongst athletes. Really? Or are they actually measuring a baseline and seeing they aren't what they used to be?)

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:05AM (#39249882)
It seems fairly silly to think that Covid really changed how people drive. You didn’t drive for a month and you just forgot, and then in the intervening three years did not relearn it? That isn’t how humans work. I don’t doubt you that it is widely believed, it just doesn’t make sense.

More likely is that due to distracted driver growth since the advent of smart phones, we’re all just getting a little worse every year, so every year is a new high watermark.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by phil21 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:52AM (#39250603)
> It seems fairly silly to think that Covid really changed how people drive.

As someone who has driven before, during, and after I think it's silly to think Covid didn't change how people drive. It's a night and day difference from 2019 to 2023 (first year of "back to normal") that cannot be explained by a gradual shift of people becoming more immersed in technology.

The attitudes in society towards law and order and what is acceptable day to day have massively shifted. Enforcement (at least where I am from) seems to be nonexistent too - and I think COVID laid that fact bare. People realized no one is actually watching or caring about what they do. Why not drive 55mph on the shoulder to get around that traffic jam if you know there are zero social or legal ramifications?

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:23AM (#39251564)
I was driving quite a long time before Covid, and I drive about 50,000 miles a year. I’ve noticed a long, slow decrease in how well people drive, but I don’t think it has changed any more dramatically in the last three years. if you took the trendline prior to 2020 and drew it to 2023, it would get you to pretty much where we are today in terms of accidents and fatalities. They had already started increasing again before Covid.

And in any case, the plural of anecdote is not data. there’s just really no data to support the idea that everybody not driving for a month, and then driving less for a year or two, has made people worse at driving.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by drc500free on Sunday February 04, 2024 @12:42PM (#39252437)
I wish I could find it, but I read a study recently about participation in the social contract that used a question like "would you run a rural red light with no one around?" as their metric. A lot more people say yes now than before 2020.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:20PM (#39256920)
> As someone who has driven before, during, and after I think it's silly to think Covid didn't change how people drive.

Unless you're arguing that Covid had ramifications for everyone's brain, there's no reason to think that's anything but superstition.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Edman274 on Monday February 05, 2024 @12:22AM (#39257636)
> Unless you're arguing that Covid had ramifications for everyone's brain

"Covid" can refer to either the worldwide pandemic, or the specific disease. "Covid", the event which was a world wide pandemic, did affect everyone's brain. You know how? Because that's where memories are stored. Memories are stored in the brain, and memories influence belief systems which affect behavior. What people remember, and what they have now learned, is that they can get away with a lot more illegal shit while driving than they are used to, and what they have learned through experience (which are formed through memory) is that people are super aggressive when driving after the worldwide pandemic, which causes them to change their behavior too.

> no reason to think that's anything but superstition.

Pretty ballsy to say that hard data of drivers getting more reckless (which is furnished in the article you're replying to) is superstition.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Monday February 05, 2024 @04:37AM (#39259161)
> Pretty ballsy to say that hard data of drivers getting more reckless (which is furnished in the article you're replying to) is superstition.

thankfully, that's not what I said.

What I said is that this idea that everyone forgot how to drive is stupid and superstitious.

blowing smoke up ones ass used to be a medical treatment until we learned differently.

Something may be going on but it sure as shit isn't that people forgot how to drive.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ffgjgf1 on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:06AM (#39262649)
> had ramifications for everyone's brain, there's no reason to think that's anything but superstition.

Or people began driving differently when the roads were empty (even if less frequently) and continued doing that even the amount of traffic increased significantly

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by nothercastle on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:47AM (#39251141)
Covid revealed a lot of things. Essential workers discovered they were disposable. That the rich would lock them into their jobs and out of public parks and spaces to protect themselves. Then to add insult to injury prices on all basic goods went up 30% so yeah poor people are angry and they are driving like they got nothing to loose. There is basically no hope of owning a house for anyone in the bottom 70% who doesn’t own one by now either.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by patmorgan23 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:03AM (#39251311)
It was much more than a month my friend. Shutdowns started in March 2020, traffic in my metro area didn't return to pre-pandemic levels until at least mid 2021.

People who had to still had to drive through the pandemic could have gotten used to driving faster on emptier roads, and therefore are more frustrated and aggressive with the traffic/slowdowns today.

Or maybe it's because the population of drivers has shifted, there's still a lot of people working from home (either full time or part of the week)

Or maybe lowering of social empathy we've seen since the pandemic has bleed over into drivers' attitudes (people are notably more rude/less considerate in public)

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:26AM (#39251590)
I don’t believe people get significantly worse at driving after not driving for a month. I have gone on one month vacations where I did not drive, then I came back and gotten my car, and I don’t think I was any worse off, and even if I was, I was right back to where I started Very quickly.

I don’t think half as much for a year would make me any worse either. The average American is 40 years old and has been driving for 25 years. The average American who drives is even older. It’s hard to imagine them cutting their commute in half for a couple years. Will make them any worse than they had been before.

In instances, like this, there is neither nor logic, just subjective feeling, you can be pretty sure it is incorrect

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by michael1999 on Monday February 05, 2024 @01:53PM (#39265267)
Locally, I saw a marked difference in a small part of the population.

Roughly a quarter of drivers are maniacs, and drive until there is another car actually impeding their progress, or the get a ticket. Over covid, the empty roads taught these drivers to expect that that can drive 50 in a 30. Now that the traffic is back, these morons are still trying to drive 50 in a 30, and weaving around stopped or turning traffic to do it.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ipython on Saturday February 03, 2024 @10:43PM (#39247343)
IMO at night the white LED lights aren't the problem; the people who insist on driving everywhere with their high beams on all the time are. Maybe it's just me but it seems that more people than ever are driving with their brights on - and those people are by and large driving vehicles with halogen lights.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by BobbyTables2 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:16PM (#39247539)
I’ve also noticed this consistently in recent years.

Literally cannot drive 10 minutes without encountering a vehicle with high beams on (can tell by the location, not brightness alone). I’m talking about busy urban areas, not the boonies.

This happens far more often than cars with no headlights (which used to be more common).

At first I thought this was some sort of signal for drugs/etc. Of course that makes little sense…

However, in reality it’s probably worse than that…

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sokoloff on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:25AM (#39248587)
I’ve noticed a fair number of these cases where you can tell one of their low beams is burned out. “I can’t see with my half a low beam, and rather than fixing it, I’ll just turn on my high beams. There, I fixed it.”
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by globular-toast on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:58AM (#39249242)
Welcome to the generation of drivers that have never switched their headlights on or off ever. They'll drive in inclement weather with no lights because it's still bright enough to not trigger the dusk sensor. They'll sit on the side of their road with headlights shining fully for no reason. They basically don't know the lights are there. Why would they? Never used the road outside of a car. Never known any different.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by doctorwho42 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:18AM (#39274386)
I think some of those people just don't have their headlights adjusted properly.

I have noticed that in the last 5 years more and more people just don't know that your headlights are supposed to be pointed downward and not straight ahead.

This becomes more obvious when you look at bikes, the amount of bikes I have seen with their blinding LEDs pointed straight ahead 'because they want to be seen by cars" is insane. They don't understand that you don't need to be directly in the beam to see a light source.

What I thought was common knowledge seems to have been disappeared

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by thedougd on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:27PM (#39284101)
Yes! And I’ve noticed it tends to be the older cars with ‘low’ temperature lights.

I have two theories:

1- They are trying to compensate for their hazed, plastic headlight enclosures. Unfortunately not only are the high beams brighter, they point up.

2- It’s a stick it to the people with newer cars and their obnoxiously bright lights mentality.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by lokar on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:12PM (#39247514)
I really doubt that is the issue. As always, the main factors are speed, weight (of the vehicle) and intoxication.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by tcmart14 on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:14PM (#39247524)
I hate driving around at night because of that. Feels like everyone in town has them and I am just constantly driving blind because of them.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by AmVess on Saturday February 03, 2024 @11:56PM (#39247740)
Car accidents are going up in part because some police departments simply do not have the budget to do traffic enforcement. I lived in a big city, and the police didn't have the manpower to fight crime and traffic enforcement. As a result, fatal car crashes were very common.

LED lights aren't a problem if they are adjusted properly.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sokoloff on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:27AM (#39248594)
OEM LED lights aren’t a problem. Retrofit LED headlamp bulbs are a problem regardless of adjustment, IME.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by RankingMember on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:47AM (#39248182)
Agreed, and also: vehicle size itself. As vehicles get bigger, people feel less safe sharing the road with them in their sub-compacts, so now they buy crossovers, which themselves grow with every generation. It becomes an arms race in which the environment and anyone not trying to get around not in a big metal box is the inevitable loser.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by polski-g on Sunday February 04, 2024 @01:53AM (#39248206)
The reason is that cops dramatically reduced the amount of traffic enforcement they engaged in ( https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448?t=7... ). Turns out they don't want to risk a murder charge for $65k/year; I don't blame them, I wouldn't do it for $1m. Less traffic cops = more traffic crime.

Both of the dramatic increases of car accidents from the past decade coincided with BLM events: Ferguson and Floyd. See figure 1 - https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sgammon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @05:44AM (#39249162)
Correlation is not causation… ? In what manner does BLM protests affect traffic on a mass scale
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by polski-g on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:02AM (#39250254)
The protests are a red herring. It's the cops not wanting to be charged with murder so they just make less traffic stops.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by sgammon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @02:41PM (#39253612)
I don’t think they were afraid of being charged with murder in the first place. Qualified immunity for police is quite strongly backed.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by slimrec77 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:01PM (#39253796)
Yea I don't know about BLM protests but cops have vanished from enforcing traffic laws where I am.

I would say someone blows a red light at least 50% of the time at a red light.

There might just not be enough cops now though demographically. That would be my guess. The same way there aren't enough nurses.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by 8organicbits on Sunday February 04, 2024 @06:43AM (#39249498)
I think this can be addressed by using speed cameras instead of chase cars to enforce speed limits. Tint and lights can be covered by periodic vehicle inspection. These are fairly common elsewhere, but the US chooses cops that give chase.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:01AM (#39249857)
There’s no real evidence that that enforcement leads to lower accident rates. Most people simply drive at whatever speed they think is safe and the ones who think that’s a faster speed find the tickets worth it.

This happened at the same time screen's got distracting, so any correlation is likely coincidence.

Similarly the United States once introduced a maximum highway speed that lowered highway speeds everywhere. Fatality rates went down, but it turned out to be unrelated, Similarly the United States once introduced a maximum highway speed that lowered highway speeds everywhere. Accident rates went down, they just happened to do it at the same time legislators were responding to the unsafe at any speed era. They lifted the maximum speed, speeds went up, and rates of accidents and fatalities kept going down.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by polski-g on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:06AM (#39250284)
There is a strong positive effect that more enforcement of traffic laws reduces traffic accidents: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/effect-high-visibility-e...
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Sunday February 04, 2024 @04:20PM (#39254605)
While interesting, that is not correlating traffic laws with reduction of accidents generally, it is saying that using short term bursts of “ highly visible enforcement” does. that’s well and good and I suppose perhaps that has been curtailed also due to police staffing shortages, I don’t know that there is any evidence that the pre-pandemic background level of enforcement really had much effect.

And from what I understand the level of accidents we are seeing now is basically on trend with what you would have expected if you just followed the trendline forward from 2019, even if the pandemic never happened.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:31PM (#39256987)
yeah, because all this enforcement is somehow happening stealthily. All these cops pulling people over but flipping on their ninja switch so no one sees them.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mattmaroon on Monday February 05, 2024 @09:16AM (#39261419)
No, but generally they do it so infrequently that you bake it into the cost of driving if you’re a frequent speeder. For many years I just considered it a cost of driving, but if I knew a lot of cops were enforcing in one area (like when I got 3 speeding tickets in under 24 hours in the same stretch of road) I’d slow down there.

There are known places where cops pull people over a lot and you’ll see people go from 15 over to driving the speed limit there, then accelerate right after.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by optymizer on Sunday February 04, 2024 @06:39AM (#39249479)
Truly ridiculous. When one of these cars is behind me, I get a shadow _in front_ of my car, that's how bright their lights are (my headlights are clean).
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Geisterde on Sunday February 04, 2024 @06:59AM (#39249560)
Its truly a tragedy that your eyes must be plagued by such a thing, a tragedy of the commons at that, its such an issue that I have never heard anyone complain about it before you.

Of course, this isnt a problem in countries that dont have such asinine rules around headlights, where an actual modern headlight can identify cars/pedestrians and selectively not cast light directly at them.

You are probably right though, forget about how these noble regulations have kept us in the automotive stone age, we have a big stick so lets use it! Its not like the government is going to get out there and fix the roads anyways, all they seem interested in is stealing money.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by everdrive on Sunday February 04, 2024 @08:05AM (#39249877)
Some people have suggested fighting back against this with SOLAS tape. Does anyone know the legality of a measure like this?
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by michaelcampbell on Sunday February 04, 2024 @09:53AM (#39250610)
The more light tends to the blue end of the spectrum, the more it scatters in atmosphere. There's a reason the old timey fog lights were yellow/orange.

And yes, I feel the same as you do.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by xnx on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:20AM (#39250844)
Add overly bright lights to the list of unenforced laws in the US along with speeding, excess noise (e.g. modified exhaust), and pollution (e.g. "rolling coal").
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by datavirtue on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:32AM (#39250983)
They are also signal driven and cause migraines/seizures.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by bick_nyers on Sunday February 04, 2024 @11:06AM (#39251353)
Honestly it can be so bad I fantisize about putting a mirror in my rear windshield.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ta1243 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @03:28PM (#39254084)
This is a global thing, and it's started to receive more attention in the UK [0]

One thing I find blinding is those "auto-dip/intelligent" full beams which people don't dip. They simply don't work as well, but people don't bother dipping.

I accidentality forgot to dip the lights in my 2005 yellowish micra the other day past going past some traffic. In times past I'd be flashed, but I wasn't. So I carried on. Not a single flash over 12 miles. To me that suggests that normal car lights is about the same level as full beam lights from 20 years ago.

[0] https://news.sky.com/story/headlight-glare-is-getting-worse-...

[1] https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/driving/2024-01/modern-car...

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by mx_03 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @07:38PM (#39256065)
>Eventually, everyone starts using it and then no one will be able to see properly at night anymore

That will be the only solution, truly.

We should all install these annoying headlights so they get banned

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by 3asdf123 on Sunday February 04, 2024 @10:31PM (#39256984)
I and people started noticing this like 7 years ago, glad that people start complaining it now. It's a combination of more aggressive lighting, bright LED, and taller vehicles.

Looking directly in my mirror now feels like a hazard rather than helpful.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by JohnFen on Monday February 05, 2024 @11:22AM (#39262898)
> the one I find personally annoying the most are white LED headlights

Those are the worst. Actually, I take that back. There was a trend a number of years ago of people putting in these super-bright headlamps that were usually tinted purple/blue. Those were the worst -- cars using them were basically telling oncoming traffic "I hate you and hope you die". But, at least in my state, they were made illegal.

But those superbright LED headlamps come pretty close.

Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by ztetranz on Monday February 05, 2024 @01:43PM (#39265087)
Even with normal lights, many Americans don't seem to know or care about dipping headlights when appropriate. At least that's my observation as a kiwi been here for about 23 years. I get that some (many?) modern cars are supposed to do it automatically so maybe that's mine or my car's age talking but even 20 years ago I seldom saw anyone actively dip their lights when approaching on a mostly empty road.
Re:Why car insurance in America is too cheap by Sylamore on Monday February 05, 2024 @02:13PM (#39265589)
Yeah, it's a problem but it's made worse by the fact that on a lot of cars there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between high or low beam in terms of brightness to oncoming traffic. I've seen cars dip their lights, but if you blinked you would have missed the difference. I used to be proactive about dipping my lights when I knew there was oncoming traffic but I learned that if I did that, the oncoming driver almost never dipped their high beams so now I make sure that they have a clear view of my lights before I dip them and it has significantly increased the reciprocation because I guess it signals to them that I did indeed dip my lights.

OTOH, I get flashed by other drivers often when I don't have my high beams on and I don't have after market lights. Ironically, it seems to happen less when I drive the car with the brightest lights (Land Rover LR3 HSE) because it seems to shape the beam best to keep the light out of the opposing lane. It happens the most when I drive my 2005 Mustang which by far IMO has the poorest road illumination of any vehicle I have access to drive.