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Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Justsignedup on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:12PM (#37667150)
The worst part here is: He spent months researching 500 medical papers to even realize this was a problem. No way in hell will a single defense lawyer get someone to be able to research enough to figure this out. As stated, how many people are in jail or lost their kids due to something that didn't actually happen. And how many people don't know that a minor bump in the head for a baby could be life threatening, but we just mark it as SIDS. And even worse, no medical doctor will go this hard trying to figure out how to defend a person they believe murdered a baby.

It is the perfect combination of crap.

Cyrille Rossant may save a lot of lives, in both parents and children, if this becomes common knowledge.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bombcar on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:22PM (#37667267)
I’ve heard credible rumors that SIDS is the “parent accidentally killed their child but we won’t tell them that” polite fiction.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by crazygringo on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:41PM (#37667472)
This article is entirely about debunking rumors and looking at actual scientific evidence to correct people's misconceptions -- misconceptions among doctors and law enforcement that have ruined people's lives.

So please don't bring "rumors" into a discussion here. That's exactly the kind of harmful behavior the article is trying to fight against.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by ncallaway on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:37PM (#37667432)
Who have you heard these rumors from?

How did you determine them to be credible?

My assumption is that any citation to a rumor should be totally dismissed if these questions can’t be answered.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:42PM (#37667482)
It seems to me that this rumor is just an alternate framing of the original commenter's assertion that "a minor bump in the head for a baby could be life threatening, but we just mark it as SIDS". I think it's fair to be skeptical of both, but it's worth reflecting on how the same factual assertions can come across as either "science-informed speculation" or "crazy unsubstantiated rumor" depending on how you say them.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bombcar on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:55PM (#37667603)
Exactly. And imagine you’re a doctor, and you have a dead child in front of you, crying parents, and a form to fill out. No possible way of filling out the form brings the child back to life, and one way makes it as easy as possible for everyone, and another results in potentially up to jail time.

Now do this repeatedly during your long and illustrious career.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sarchertech on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:20PM (#37668474)
My wife is a pediatric ER doctor. That’s not how that works. If suspected SIDS case/unexplained death comes in, it would be handed over to the child abuse team and the medical examiner would determine cause of death. The medical examiner is detached from crying parents.

What you’re talking about would require a lot more than just one well meaning doctor.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by ncallaway on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:07PM (#37667752)
> or "crazy unsubstantiated rumor" depending on how you say them.

“How it was said” was literally presented as unsubstantiated rumor. It’s not worth reflecting that when someone says “I heard a rumor that X…” it sounds like an unsubstantiated rumor. It’s just the basic structure of English language.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:11PM (#37667801)
What's worth reflecting on is that "a minor bump in the head for a baby could be life threatening, but we just mark it as SIDS" does not sound like a crazy rumor, even when it's stated with no further backing in response to an article which didn't say anything about SIDS.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by slashdev on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:43PM (#37667485)
Don’t say horrible things like that unless you can really back them up. Think of how a grief stricken parent might feel after reading that.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by colechristensen on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:25PM (#37667952)
SIDS most likely does not exist. "Unknown cause of death" should be preferred.[1] If you review the literature, there has been a definite increase in pushback against "SIDS" instead trying to assign causes of death with known mechanisms. I can't find a great reference but there is one out there that proposes with evidence that the most prevalent actual cause of death labeled "SIDS" is accidental suffocation.

It is so emotionally charged though that there is and has been great hesitation to assign this cause of death because of the emotional effect on the parents.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10571752/

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:16PM (#37668434)
One of my children had a serious problem right after birth with breathing (central apnea). He'd stop breathing suddenly while sleeping. If this had happened at home he likely would not have made it, but the hospital was very alert to it and after two weeks with many such episodes it suddenly clicked and then it never happened again.

If we had taken him home without knowing about the condition I'm pretty sure a 'SIDS' cause of death would have been one of the possible outcomes regardless of the actual cause (which would have been very hard to determine after the fact).

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by slashdev on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:35PM (#37679141)
Thank god the hospital caught it!
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:26PM (#37679943)
They were really caught out by it themselves if not for an unrelated issue they would have sent us home. So luck played a huge part here. That's also two weeks that aged me a couple of years. But compared to what I saw some of the other parents there deal with we were the lucky ones in more ways than one.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:44PM (#37667498)
That's the whole point here, isn't it: that 'what you've heard' isn't credible at all. There is no 'polite fiction' here, what there is is people looking for culprits when there are none. Does that meant that all such cases are accidents? No, because we know for a fact that some people really do hurt infants for whatever reason. But the evidence is apparently such that a large fraction of the cases that were thought to be criminal in actuality were not. So don't go on rumors or polite fictions when lives are at stake. Do the legwork before ruining people's lives.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:53PM (#37667580)
trully unbelievable, i lose faith in thr justice system day by day
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by parl_match on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:31PM (#37668000)
The justice system does the best it can with the information it has. It is far from perfect. It makes horrible mistakes all the time. The problem, of course, is improving it without knock-on effects making it worse.

There are huge swaths of people doing the work required to make it better, every day. It's not as easy as turning a dial from "bad" to "good"

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by yieldcrv on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:34PM (#37668035)
and none as effective as this one person

too many cooks in the kitchen

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by razeh on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:43PM (#37668121)
No. When it comes to evaluating forensic evidence lawyers are, by training, too process oriented to solve the problems. Ask a prosecutor what the error rate is for fingerprints or DNA evidence and you’ll get a blank stare. They don’t even try to measure it.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by zamadatix on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:26PM (#37669113)
You're telling me no defense lawyer thinks about arguing the evidence is unreliable or are you just saying the prosecution throws everything they can find at their side of the case? The former seems extremely hard to believe (lest you're about to become the greatest defense lawmaker of all time due to wisdom shared in a short HN comment) and the latter seems to be evidence of the system working both well and as designed, not evidence it's badly faulty.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by TedDoesntTalk on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:42PM (#37669247)
> latter seems to be evidence of the system working both well and as designed

Prosecutors in America have one goal: close the case. At any cost, close the case. They are not interested in justice. They are not interested in finding the one who actually committed the crime. They are interested in closing the case. If that is “working as designed”, then we need to change the design.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bluGill on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:58PM (#37669378)
Sure, but the accused should have a lawyer who is screaming about anything that is unreliable.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:05AM (#37674088)
Have you seen the caseloads of public defenders?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by razeh on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:22PM (#37684430)
There’s no practical way for a defense lawyer to find out what the error rate is for, say, a state lab. Occasionally organizations can do this, for example the innocence project figured out that the FBI’s hair analysis was bogus for decades (https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-testimony-on-mic...).
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by zamadatix on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:05AM (#37675691)
And the opposite is true of the defense. The result is a 3rd party gets to hear all of the evidence either side could come up with and weight the outcome based on all of that instead of 2 interested parties trying to figure it out themselves.

There are of course ways to improve the legal system, more equal access to quality representation is my preferred improvement regardless of system, but you can't just look at one element of the system in isolation and declare the whole concept bad. That's "The CPU produces waste heat so we need to remove it completely" type logic where you find one thing that sounds unambiguously bad and ignore that it could be a symptom of great net positive function of that thing. Doesn't mean it's perfect either, just means it needs more than a shallow dismissal.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by paiute on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:08AM (#37669977)
A lot of doctors are process oriented as well. Which is fine most of the time. But I was similarly disturbed when a specialist had zero clue what the approx half life of one of the primary drugs they use was. There was a situation that didn’t fit the book and i just looked it up for them on the spot. They didn’t like me.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sneak on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:55PM (#37668233)
If the current functioning is it doing "the best it can", the whole thing should be burnt to the ground.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by OmarShehata on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:41PM (#37668686)
> A system that does not incarcerate anyone for any reason would be much preferable

surely you don't actually believe that? I don't think the result of this is just 0 false positives. The result of that is a lot more crime, and a lot more injustice.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sneak on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:45PM (#37668717)
I think you (as is very common) vastly overestimate the effect of the threat of incarceration on crime.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by iteria on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:28PM (#37669130)
I think incarceration is very bad at deterring future crimes, but it very good at delaying them. Someone in jail for 10 years is at the very least not going to commit a crime for 10 years. There is some merit to that until we have a better system.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by 10u152 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:24PM (#37669077)
Forget the threat. Serial muggers/armed robbers/thugs need to be off the street. This "nobody should be in prison" rhetoric is painfully naïve. Wait till you've had elderly/defenseless parents or friends violently mugged and beaten, you'll change your tune.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dylan604 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:19PM (#37668461)
to be replaced with what? i'm all for making changes that are an improvement, but just burning it to the ground for the sake of it with no end game is not an improvement
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sneak on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:38PM (#37668660)
A system that does not incarcerate anyone for any reason would be much preferable to the atrocities that are the current criminal justice systems in most of the global west (and especially of course the United States).
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:52PM (#37668790)
Interesting and unusual perspective - we have the one person in this thread who supports wildly expanding the death penalty.

Unless the person above is, of course, an anarchist who has no answer for what to do about Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Phillip Garrido, or Brian Mitchell. I would say that as imperfect and heavily flawed as our system is, "Perfect is the enemy of good."

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:43PM (#37669764)
> what to do about Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Phillip Garrido, or Brian Mitchell

Nothing. Those people are one-in-a-million anomalies. If it weren't for the media hype surrounding them, their impact on society would be comparable to the impact of deaths from lightning strikes. What do we do about people being struck by lightning? Nothing.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by singleshot_ on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:36AM (#37670209)
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Filligree on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:18AM (#37670048)
That’s nuts. Even if you were correct about that, and I’m not admitting any such thing, it isn’t how people work. If the state doesn’t provide justice, then the mob will.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:24AM (#37670105)
"Justice" is an incredibly malleable idea that is largely shaped by what people are told. Until very, very recently, nobody gave a fuck about serial killers, or even knew they existed. If the hype stopped, there wouldn't be any mobs to worry about.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by gjsman-1000 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:27AM (#37675154)
Define recently. There is plenty of historical hysteria around them. Ever heard of Jack the Ripper?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by tumult on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:16AM (#37670031)
That's not true. We have things in place to protect people and objects from lightning strikes. For example, lightning protection systems on tall buildings.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:26AM (#37670127)
Those protect the building, not individual people. Nobody carries around mobile lightning rods, even though they were invented centuries ago.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by tumult on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:33AM (#37670177)
It protects the people in the building. Likewise, arresting a serial killer protects anyone they would have killed next.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by epivosism on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:45AM (#37670272)
Have you thought about moving to Somalia?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:38PM (#37668657)
At this point, I would not be surprised if having two judges per case, randomly selected from the community, from parents who have successfully had at least three children leave the nest while still remaining on speaking terms, was a more reliable method of justice.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dylan604 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:17PM (#37669012)
isn't an even number of judges ripe for uselessness?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by goles on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:06AM (#37670419)
If you burnt to the ground everything doing the best it can probably 75% of the public and every instution would spontaneously combust.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:51PM (#37668783)
There are also huge swaths of people actively trying to make it worse, that's what the FBI did (does?) for years when it knowingly pushed junk forensics.

Or what basically every prosecution does, when it knows that the science behind some things isn't airtight but still presents it in the best possible light to get a conviction.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by TedDoesntTalk on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:43PM (#37669266)
> junk forensics

Fiber analysis (e.g. carpets)

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by marcus_holmes on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:57PM (#37668831)
It's not a justice system, it's a Law and Order system: It's not designed to deliver justice, it's designed to resolve disputes relatively cheaply, while allowing for spending more money to get better results.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Waterluvian on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:06PM (#37668348)
Nothing shook my faith in the medical system more than having kids.

Holy cow is modern medicine still as smugly wrong as it’s always been. Every generation laughs at all the stupid stuff the previous generations believed, and then acts so confident that they’ve got it right this time.

And as a result you get unworthy nurses making moms feel intense shame for not “trying hard enough” to somehow magically produce milk.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by froggertoaster on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:18PM (#37668457)
After 5 kids in 10 years, you come to realize that the standards aren't agreed upon, and best practices/recommendations change YEAR TO YEAR without fail.

Breastfeeding is one of the worst things hoisted upon mothers who are told "you must try no matter what" - seemingly ignoring the mental and physical health of the mother and the father all the while.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by autoexec on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:09PM (#37668951)
There are a lot of really good benefits to breastfeeding but it's not going to work for everybody or in every situation. I wouldn't fault a doctor for recommending it, but they shouldn't make someone feel bad if it isn't working out.

I want recommendations and best practices to change as our understanding of things improve though. The alternative would mean that either no more research is being done, or doctors are just ignoring anything they didn't learn while in school.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bcrosby95 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:23PM (#37669065)
Our doctor was fine with it. The nurse called formula poison.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by froggertoaster on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:25PM (#37694454)
> The nurse called formula poison. An absolutely gross and ridiculous position.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by cycomanic on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:05PM (#37669426)
My partner is a GP who has been doing early childhood screening. One thing she learnt after doing a special training is that advice on proper breastfeeding is very difficult to find. She found that with many mothers that had problems, some small adjustments could often make a huge difference (often causing a kind of hallelujah moment for the mothers). The issue is much of the advice given at the hospital is wrong or insufficient.

The training the she did is the possums program from Australia, if somebody wants to look it up I think some resources are available for free.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by anon291 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:15PM (#37669527)
Completely agree. Half the lactation consultants have never breastfed themselves. The advice my wife got from the nurses versus what she got from her own mother and my grandmother were completely at odds. Both of those women told her to just keep doing it and to ignore the nurses while the professionals were single mindedly focused on a few days of weight loss. The milk came in (as all the older women expected) and my daughter breastfed for many years after.

Really the advice given is simply ridiculous. I honestly think most men who's children have nursed can give better advice than the lactation consultants. One that always makes me roll my eyes is the idea that a breastfed child should eat for a few minutes and then be full for an hour or two. That is simply... Not how it works. Babies like eating and being with mom. Breastfeeding mothers should expect to be with their newborn all the time. We are lucky to know many breastfeeding mothers and I don't know any family where the baby is satiated after ten minutes. And yet... The professionals are convinced this is how it works

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:12PM (#37668401)
My sister wouldn't sleep. The doctor constantly gave the "sigh, you're an idiot, you just do X and Y and they sleep" talk to my mother because nothing came up on their screening, even though my mother almost wanted to scream that something was clearly wrong and abnormal. Turns out, different doctor, serious vitamin deficiency.

And medical incompetence by staff, not doctors, is also awful. My brother hated reading. He got glasses, still hated reading, my mother wondered why he could be so disobedient in that regard. They said, well, the prescription is right, he can clearly see fine. Turns out two years later that the lenses were installed on opposite sides. Right lens on left eye, left lens on right eye. A simple mistake, but the consequences...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by maximus-decimus on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:32PM (#37669171)
I do find it bizarre they don't verify you can see with your actual glasses.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by hackernewds on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:52PM (#37669330)
How would one have tested it instead?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by analog31 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:16PM (#37669537)
They can verify the prescription. Also in principle they could use the same machine that finds the prescription, to verify that your net correction is zero with your glasses on.

I once proved that my wife got the wrong prescription by just holding her old and new glasses up at arms length and seeing that things looked way different through them. The glasses place agreed.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by maximus-decimus on Thursday September 28, 2023 @09:26AM (#37689299)
Ask you to read letters again... with your actual new glasses on so you can verify how good you can see.

When you get a car engine rebuilt, do they just diagnose, replace parts and then never start the engine themselves to verify it actually works?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by SOLAR_FIELDS on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:13PM (#37669512)
It’s especially a problem with women and minorities. Doctors just don’t believe them. I’m neither of those and I had to convince my doctor that I had Lyme disease. I had the bullseye right where the tick had bit me. It was clearly Lyme disease. He assumed it couldn’t be because it took 8 weeks for the bullseye to show up (it’s usually a matter of days in America). He did not know that European Lyme disease takes much longer for the bullseye to appear. He at least had the tact to call me later and apologize after he did more research
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by mberning on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:02PM (#37668874)
Same experience. The medical system is a reflection of pop parenting culture or vice versa. Everyone was so gung ho on breastfeeding, but when the milk didn’t come in and our son wasn’t interested in a dry breast the only advice given was “keep trying”. Then the shock and surprise when baby is losing weight. We had to demand formula, which was given grudgingly, and left the hospital a day later. If we have another we will do breast plus formula from the get go.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jt2190 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:28PM (#37669143)
> We had to demand formula

I don’t understand. You can’t just go to the store and buy infant formula?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by msteffen on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:53PM (#37669338)
In the US (not sure about other countries), new parents often stay at the hospital where the baby was delivered for a few days after the birth. During this time, the hospital often provides them all their food and childcare supplies: diapers, swaddles, diaper cream, wipes, etc. To get formula, you have to ask the hospital for it, but if your nurse doesn’t want to give it to you because they think you should try harder at breastfeeding, you get stuck. You could sneak out and buy some, but you’re pretty exhausted, and your partner is still stuck with a screaming, hungry baby until you’re back.

(I realize after writing this out that being at the mercy of your hospital sounds draconian, but it can be really really great if you have a good nurse or midwife. They teach you how to bathe and swaddle the baby, how to nurse, how to rock them to sleep, etc. All skills you’ll need once you leave)

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Huggernaut on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:05AM (#37670772)
In the Netherlands, for the 8 days after you give birth, someone comes to your house for some number of hours per day (in our case 8) to teach you these things, maybe do some tidying and cooking but most importantly, take the baby so you can sleep! This is called kraamzorg.

It also has some similar pitfalls, as they are not necessarily specialists and it's still hard to disagree or do something else even if in your own home in the face of the supposed expert.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jimbob45 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:54PM (#37669347)
It’s not that easy to just know how parenting is going to work the first time around. You can be lactating prior to delivery and then dry up for no reason. Even worse, your baby can decide not to latch or be tongue-tied. If your husband isn’t on hand to run to the store from the hospital, things can get challenging.

We had to worry about my wife dying because they wouldn’t suggest a C-section and we didn’t think to ask for one (her induction didn’t take for several days). We’re quite confident they’d have let her die before suggesting one. Thankfully, we thought better in time.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bluGill on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:56PM (#37669362)
Not so easy when you are in a hospital recovering from birth. They generally won't allow things from offsight into the hospital either, so even if you (dad) goes to get some you have to get it in without getting caught.

The other side is nursing is hard, and so it is easy to cheat and use formula when you could with a little effort nurse the baby just fine. (Nursing is generally slightly better for the baby, but the difference is tiny. Nursing is generally a lot better for the wallet though)

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:55PM (#37669882)
> The medical system is a reflection of pop parenting culture

Indeed. And not just in relation to parenting. The average doctor is constantly trying to emulate TV doctors, just like the average police detective is influenced by what they see on CSI, and every archaeologist wants to be Indiana Jones or Lara Croft. It would be hilarious, if it didn't have such disastrous consequences for regular people every day.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:01AM (#37670380)
Huh? Doctors don't base their decisions on House episodes. Not even ER episodes.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:59AM (#37670737)
No, but they base their behavior and expectations on such shows. Life imitates art.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by LAC-Tech on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:09PM (#37668954)
Older nurses are the best. They've seen it all.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by doublespanner on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:36PM (#37669710)
The worst encounters I have had with nurses have been with older ones filtering information and using out of date practices because they think they have seen it all and now know best.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by routerl on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:19PM (#37669033)
> Every generation laughs at all the stupid stuff the previous generations believed, and then acts so confident that they’ve got it right this time.

Voltaire (1694-1778) wrote a satirical account of a medieval university's oral examination on medicine: the examiner asks why morphine puts people to sleep, and the student confidently replies that morphine has a "dormative essence". This is a bit like saying that things with an essence of gravity fall towards the earth, whereas things with an essence of levity float towards the sky. The examiner proudly accepts that answer and bestows upon the student the title of doctor.

This was very funny to anyone educated in the time Voltaire was writing, since they would have known that morphine puts people to sleep because... it has round molecules with no sharp edges...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by thaumasiotes on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:06PM (#37669435)
> Voltaire (1694-1778) wrote a satirical account of a medieval university's oral examination on medicine: the examiner asks why morphine puts people to sleep, and the student confidently replies that morphine has a "dormative essence".

It was Molière (<1622 - 1673), who wrote a play that featured an apothecary (explaining the functioning of opium to laymen), but no examinations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imaginary_Invalid

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:07AM (#37670426)
I used to enjoy this blog written by a person who hated US medical school:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch...

People will probably find it offensive but it does explain a lot about why the stuff being taught is almost always not questioned.

This post in particular:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101211180021/http://www.medsch...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:34PM (#37669186)
> unworthy nurses making moms feel intense shame for not “trying hard enough” to somehow magically produce milk.

Stay away from mommy blogs/forums. Those are the most toxic cesspools I've ever witnessed. Things are changing, some of the newer ones are not nearly as bad, but man the judgement is super real.

Nurses are one thing, but personally, the worst is family members who think they know better and don't understand the data and that times have changed.

FORMULA IS PERFECTLY FINE.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by hackernewds on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:51PM (#37669329)
What are some good mom blogs?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by astura on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:44PM (#37682448)
Not a "mom blog," but covers pregnancy and childbirth from a scientific viewpoint plus some parenting topics - The Skeptical OB - https://www.skepticalob.com/ the author was a practicing obstetrician, professor at Harvard Medical School, and mom of 4.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by laurent_du on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:11AM (#37669992)
Maternal milk is better than formula in every possible way and there is a perfect scientific consensus around this. Formula is the least worst substitute to maternal milk but going around and screaming that formula is perfectly fine, as if it was as good (or even better!) than maternal milk is denying some very well-established piece of science for likely ideological reasons.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by cperciva on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:30AM (#37670160)
Milk is better than formula, but formula is better than starvation.

There are way too many instances of infants "failing to thrive" because their mothers are bullied into relying on breast milk which they simply aren't producing enough of.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by xyzzyz on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:48AM (#37670290)
> Maternal milk is better than formula in every possible way and there is a perfect scientific consensus around this.

I have not seen result like this obtained in a randomized, controlled trial, and it is almost certainly false as stated: you're almost certainly exaggerating for effect, but doing that in scientific context is bad intellectual hygiene.

All results of this sort that I have seen have been purely correlational, and as such suffer from selection bias. This might be true, but the evidence is far from conclusive, and if such consensus exists among medical professionals, it only shows how susceptible they are to groupthink and parroting the stuff they heard from the cathedra.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by cbsks on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:15AM (#37670474)
It’s like saying that you should only eat organic food. Sure, there is lots of science backing it up, but that’s besides the point. It’s not always possible or easy for everyone to get organic food. Any food is better than no food.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:22AM (#37670888)
And this is what I'm talking about - Clearly, you've never been a mother who can't produce milk for her child.

I've been there with my wife and I'm only the husband.

Everything you say is true, but by saying this and in this manner, you lack empathy. You sound just like the mommy blogs and their followers that I'm speaking against who spout facts with no room for life's situations. My wife sincerely believed she was less of a mother because of people like this.

I say it again: Formula is _perfectly_ fine. Use it a little or as a total replacement. You're not a lesser mother/parent for it.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by boredhedgehog on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:46AM (#37671442)
When you say more empathy is required, do you mean the same thing should be phrased differently, or do you mean it should not be said at all?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:55AM (#37672886)
Probably something that says while breast milk is ideal, formula is a great alternative if it's not available.

Acknowledging that formula is a safe alternative and that you don't need to stress.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by CrHn3 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:24AM (#37670098)
Formula is adequate as far as macronutrients go, but it lacks sugars present (at varying levels-about 20% of the population are FUT2 non-secretors and cannot produce the α1,2-fucosyltransferase enzyme that is used to make human milk oligosaccharides), stem cells and bacteria present in breast milk. Women in the US are often deficient in the strain that can metabolize the human milk oligosaccharides, b. infantis, and it's not clear afaik to what extent bacteria gets passed vertically in breastmilk. The microRNA present in breastmilk can modulate gene expression, but the extent and effects are unclear.

B. infantis and human milk oligosaccharides create a feedback loop that encourages the formation of a robust immune system during a critical period [1]. Some formulas contain b. infantis, and some contain 2'FL, the HMO present in breastmilk. The most robust strain is EVC001, which has been shown to be present at a year after 21 days of supplementation. In an observational study, it reduced the diagnosis of necrotizing enterocolitis in very low birth rate infants by 73% [2].

I wish this was common knowledge, but most formulas do not contain these (often they contain other pre and probiotics) and babies are missing out on the specific sugars and bacteria that we know impact the development of the immune system.

1. https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00660-7 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35032555/

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:29AM (#37670930)
At least this one doesn't sound as bad as the other post, but it's still in the same vein - you've never been a mother who can't produce milk for her child.

I've been as the husband there are all your facts don't allow for people's situations.

Formula is perfectly fine.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by CrHn3 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:53AM (#37675508)
> you've never been a mother who can't produce milk for her child

That's your assumption.

You're missing the point, which is that you can supplement formula with both 2'FL and b. infantis and get immune system outcomes that are more similar to those that occur while breastfeeding [1]. The fact that milk typically faciliates a cascade of changes that lay the foundation for a healthy immune system is not at odds with formula feeding. Formula is adequate macronutrition, but if we cannot be honest about the ways in which it is not on par with breastmilk, we will never close the gaps.

1. https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2023/05/18/Abbott-s...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:48AM (#37676436)
> That's your assumption.

Oh do correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to hear your personal experience. Anyway...

How can you close the gaps when the mother isn't producing milk?

I'm actually confused because you keep telling me it's better, with links and everything, but... It's simply non existent for a lot of mothers. Non producing or a bad latch is enough to put a newborn baby at risk after one week.

It's like you don't believe it's possible.

That's why you're just like the mommy blogs. "You must feed 'em breast milk. It's soooooo important"

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by CrHn3 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:13PM (#37677833)
I've breastfed multiple children with ups and downs of it being easy and hard, suffered through the struggle of learning to do it the first time as postpartum mother after major surgery, through teething, latch issues, biting, pure physical exhaustion, and the transition of going back to work that leads to decreased supply. I've watched close friends that have struggled with production with underweight, premature babies pump like crazy and feel stressed out trying to get their supply up but ultimately transition to formula on the advice of doctors. My own anxiety around combination feeding and not feeling like I had a clear understanding of differences in the microbiome with a surgical birth or formula use lead to me reading everything I could find to gain a better understanding of the differences in outcomes for exclusive breastfeeding, combination and formula feeding.

We can close the gaps by subsidizing Evivo's EVC001 b. infantis and making it a standard that every formula contains 2'FL. Individuals can choose these formulas and purchase b. infantis already. If we were to make it so that all babies, not just NICU babies at hospitals aware of the research, get these two things, public health outcomes (especially those related to autoimmune conditions) should be better than if we continue allowing formula that is not as analogous with breastmilk. We can have better lactation support that is current and evidence based (such as that from ABM contributor Katrina Mitchell https://physicianguidetobreastfeeding.org).

Another reason mom blogs are toxic is because people read past others points when issues are really emotionally charged for them. Really sorry your wife struggled. Formula is fine, but there are reasons breastmilk is pushed, especially since milk is supply and demand and it's hard to identify those with true low supply and those whose bodies just haven't ramped up production yet. Hopefully as a model of immune system response and the impact of b. infantis and HMOs gains more awareness, there will be less pressure since we are assured babies are getting many of the same benefits.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by irjustin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:35PM (#37683028)
Apologies and Thanks for sharing your story.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jvanderbot on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:19AM (#37670057)
Our twins were put into my wife's arms, and we were wheeled into a room to stay for 48 hrs, being woken up every 2 hours by a nurse, which would wake up our kids, making the whole thing a living nightmare. I have no idea how I drove home.

They had no care for my wife's ability to heal, rest, or anything, just subjecting us to the worst kind of institutionalized checklist torture. The medical system cares for nothing other than preventing lawsuits and providing a place for doctors to do their 1 hr of work on their 18 patients a day.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by anon291 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:09PM (#37669466)
The justice system is doing what the doctors tell them. Broadly speaking If a medical professional testifies that this is the only way, what qualifications does a DA have to question him? Medicine is a profession; thus the professional body ought to be addressing this and, if the guidance changes, be advocating and lobbying to Congress that people start being released.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:47PM (#37669810)
> If a medical professional testifies that this is the only way, what qualifications does a DA have to question him?

Questioning witnesses is literally the DA's job. That doesn't magically stop being the case just because the witness is an expert. The DA is indeed qualified for this. You could even say it's one of the main reasons the DA exists.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by anon291 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:56PM (#37669891)
Got it. So the DA is supposed to not only be an expert in the law, but enough of an expert in medicine such that he can flaunt widely acknowledged medical standards while cross-examining expert witnesses on why they're wrong.

The author of this post admitted that it took him countless hours to discover that medicine basically has this issue wrong and only after being particularly motivated to do so. If the DA has so much medical expertise that they know better than the doctors, then what exactly is he doing being a DA?

The idea that the main purpose of the DA is to know better than doctors is ludicrous.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:11AM (#37669991)
The DA's job is to question the credibility of witnesses. If credentials conferred credibility, it wouldn't be possible to ever convict an expert of anything.

So to be plain: No, DA's don't (and aren't supposed to) just take experts by their word. They ask clarifying questions, and often bring additional experts offering contradicting testimony.

Do you seriously think courts operate by "the doctor said so, case closed"? We wouldn't need courts if that were the case.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by anon291 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:23AM (#37670095)
So the defense attorney (since it wouldn't be the da anyway) is going to convince the jury that not just the witness but the entire medical profession is suspect because of its heretofore unanimous belief that shaken baby syndrome is the only explanation of these phenomenon.

> Do you seriously think courts operate by "the doctor said so, case closed"? We wouldn't need courts if that were the case.

For certain things.. yes. If a doctor tells a jury that these injuries could only be sustained via shaking trauma, most juries will believe them over a rogue doctor or a non doctor. Doctors have some of the highest trust ratings of all professions. Attorneys have some of the lowest. That means convincing the jury the doctors are wrong.

The blame should lay at the feet of the medical professional bodies.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:05AM (#37669948)
> It is the perfect combination of crap.

I think that's being way too charitable.

In a world where people are incarcerated on a scale unprecedented in all of human history, and where prosecutorial success is measured by number of scalps taken, the assumption that this is plain malice designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom makes much more sense than it all being just a big pile of incompetence and misunderstandings.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by WA on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:32AM (#37670586)
Source? Incarceration rate seems to be going down in western countries: https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/07/1096042
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:57AM (#37670723)
The scale of incarceration is still unprecedented. A reduction by 27 percent doesn't change that. Imprisonment was an extremely rare phenomenon for much of history (as was police, for that matter). Today's incarceration rates would have to be reduced by 99+% in order to reach pre-modern levels, where large cities often had only a handful of cells in total, and rural areas had none at all.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lm28469 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:00AM (#37670747)
> Imprisonment was an extremely rare phenomenon for much of history (as was police, for that matter).

And crimes weren't solved, people not prosecuted, criminals not punished

For much of history life didn't even exist, that's not an argument for or against anything

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by watwut on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:15AM (#37670836)
Murder clearance rates went DOWN last decades in USA. Less of major crime is solved.

Plus majority of it never went through tria, because trial is just too much risk. So, there are not all that many actual checks and balances

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lm28469 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:08AM (#37672079)
That's a multi faceted problem. Murder rates also were halves since the 80s in the US, it's not necessarily the same type of criminality

In other countries the clearance rates are as high as ever. The US is an exception in many aspects in the West, closer to third world countries depending on what metric you look at

> overall, findings showed that the clearance rate in Finland and Switzerland in the years of analysis was very high, in some years of the analysis even reaching 100 percent. Internationally, these rates are extraordinary high, even in comparison with other European countries such as Italy (67 percent and, later, 78 percent) , Estonia (80 percent), England & Wales (85 percent) and France (80 percent)

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/14773708187648...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bbarnett on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:01AM (#37672017)
Mob justice existed too. And execution for minor crime, with king's justice.

Modern western police forces, with all their foibles, are far, far, far better than mob justice.

Are people even aware of history, and how absolutely bloody it was, with an immense lack of personal rights?

Fixing what's broken now is good. Trying to pretend it is worse than what was before, is absolutely absurd and laughable.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by the_af on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:18AM (#37674234)
It's not so clear cut. At least admit that a lot of thought has been given to this, none the least by Foucalt's famous essay on this topic, Discipline and Punish.

Foucalt has his critics, but it's not immediately obvious that the massive incarceration problem in some Western nations is better than public execution at the whim of monarchs. And some forms of torture, Foucalt argued, have changed from the theatrical and public to the more subdued torture of everyday lives of prison inmates.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:39AM (#37674511)
[delayed]
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by verinus on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:06AM (#37670783)
well, you were beaten or killed for a lot of crimes- some only perceived.

So, one may perceive incarceration as an improvement.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by moffkalast on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:39AM (#37672380)
To be fair, for much of history there weren't enough resources for everyone, much less for keeping people fed for free in a prison for decades. For serious crimes you just got executed as soon as possible.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by saalweachter on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:11AM (#37673508)
We also no longer have exile as a punishment.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by yawpitch on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:58AM (#37670732)
Their source could be your source, which you seem to be very seriously misreading.

> As the global population grew 21 per cent, between 2000 and 2019, the number of prisoners worldwide jumped by more than 25 per cent, according to the UNODC data.

So, worldwide trend is upward.

> While Northern America, Sub-Saharan Africa and Eastern Europe have experienced a long-term decrease in imprisonment rates of up to 27 per cent, other regions and countries, such as Latin America, Australia and New Zealand, have seen up to 68 per cent growth over the last two decades, the study revealed.

So apparently your definition of “western countries” includes sub-Saharan Africa but excludes most of Europe and all of Australia and New Zealand?

Overall your own source supports their point and contradicts your own.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by seszett on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:29AM (#37672282)
> So apparently your definition of “western countries” includes sub-Saharan Africa but excludes most of Europe and all of Australia and New Zealand?

To be honest the text you are quoting doesn't talk about Western Europe at all, and I think if you exclude Western Europe, then "Northern America + Eastern Europe" is most of what remains of "western countries". Australia and New Zealand, while part of western countries, are so small that they are basically insignificant for statistics.

The data in the source[0], though, says the number of prisoners in Europe as a whole (as well as Northern America) has decreased (Figures 10, 12, and 13) confirming what GP said. Eastern Europe is quoted specifically because the decrease has been much more important (basically, the numbers are becoming similar to Western Europe).

There's no question that the trend in the West has been a decrease in incarceration rate, with Australia and New Zealand clear outliers.

[0]https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics...

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by yawpitch on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:49AM (#37673862)
If you exclude Western Europe and simply ignore Australia and New Zealand you’ve abandoned any reasonable conception of “the West” altogether.

Regardless, cherry-picking even such an incredibly gerrymandered “West” ignores the entire point of the source: the human population in prison has risen faster than the human population itself… pointing to minor improvements in the world’s largest prison state and what remains of the ex-Soviet gulag system states while ignoring considerably larger regressions in, for example, a nation colonized specifically to be a prison does nothing to contradict that fact.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by seszett on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:01AM (#37674013)
The data (linked in my comment) shows that incarceration rates have decreased in all of Europe as well as all of Northern America and increased in Australia and New Zealand.

If you consider "the West" to be (as is commonly admitted) Europe, Northern America, Australia and New Zealand (with maybe Japan included) then incarceration rates have decreased in the West. Even if they have increased in minor countries (AU + NZ).

You're getting stuck on a sentence of the summary that talks about a subset of the data, but I'm not sure why. I also have no idea what you mean about a "nation colonized to be a prison", but honestly this looks to me as if you're just trying to push some idea without vocalizing it, which is a bit off-putting. If you're talking about the US, then yes it does have a much higher incarceration rate than anywhere else in the West, but it's a clear exception within the West and it is still decreasing.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by NotSuspicious on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:07AM (#37670785)
Unfortunate. It frankly needs to go up in Western countries to get to half-decent crime rates.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lm28469 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:57AM (#37670724)
> the assumption that this is plain malice designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom makes much more sense

That's a lot of work, a lot of malice, a lot of hate, from a lot of people, for a very meagre result.

If that's how you view your government you must live a really painful existence

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by heavyset_go on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:05AM (#37670779)
It's just people "doing their jobs" and trying to get ahead.

That's the banality of evil.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by samtho on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:01AM (#37672021)
Lest we forget the very systems enabling this behavior of banal evil were created and maintained by perhaps the most evil of them all.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by smolder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:41AM (#37672388)
The word "lest" has a meaning that does not make sense in the way you've used it.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by smolder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:18AM (#37672664)
The word "lest" is meant to come after something else. It means "for fear that" or "or else" or something similar. So it's not clear what you're trying to say. I don't know what "very systems" built by "the most evil" you mean either. Is it supposed to be obvious what you're referring to?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Clubber on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:28AM (#37673125)
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by smolder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:51AM (#37674659)
Oh, okay.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by smolder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:36PM (#37680085)
I clicked the link and remain confused. The poem does have in common the term "lest we forget", but apparently nothing else. It's also used in a grammatically correct way in the poem, but not in your post, since it's not following anything.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by p-e-w on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:04AM (#37670765)
> for a very meagre result

Power is not a meagre result. For those people who live by it, it is the ultimate goal, and they will use any means to obtain and expand it, no matter the cost to others.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by akoboldfrying on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:16AM (#37670850)
>designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom

"The state" doesn't benefit in any way from locking people up. In fact, it costs them money (both directly and in lost taxes from the lost salaries and wages of those incarcerated).

An argument could be made that prosecutors benefit from higher incarceration rates through the incentives you described. And an argument could definitely be made that private corporations paying well-below-market rates for prison labour benefit.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by tikhonj on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:27AM (#37670920)
Politicians benefit from locking people up because it gives them an easily measurable way to look "tough on crime".
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by akoboldfrying on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:48PM (#37682494)
Good point.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by NoZebra120vClip on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:34AM (#37671798)
I hate to break it to you, but the prison system has been the premiere, essential job-creation program for these United States ever since Appomattox 1865.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/captive-labor-exploit...

We got 800,000 or so right now. Fight unemployment? Lock more people up.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by JTbane on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:14AM (#37675832)
Yep and there are some specific product that rely heavily on prison labor- license plates come to mind.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Clubber on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:24AM (#37673087)
Also, keep in mind, it costs the taxpayers money, not the people running the criminal justice system. They're motivated by climbing the ladder and scorekeeping.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by SamPatt on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:20AM (#37674265)
You think states don't benefit from spending more money? They're just like other organizations who try to expand their budgets year over year.

Except they can force people to pay them more, all they need is plausible justification (like combating crime, or terrorists, or drugs, or viruses, or whatever the current societal scare happens to be about).

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by helsinkiandrew on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:36AM (#37670977)
> the assumption that this is plain malice designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom makes much more sense.

Of course it makes much more sense that there was a massive conspiracy across the medical, legal, prison industry, and press to put more people in prison. Rather than some doctors and legal professionals assuming SIDs was a simple explanation for a not very well understood medical phenomenon probably with many causes.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bondarchuk on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:39AM (#37670993)
>Of course it makes much more sense that there was a massive conspiracy across the medical, legal, prison industry, and press to put more people in prison.

Not like it hasn't happened before. And you're overestimating the required massiveness of the conspiracy IMO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bbarnett on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:58AM (#37671992)
In a world where people are incarcerated on a scale unprecedented in all of human history,

This is only true, because prior to these times, people were killed instead. Or beaten to within an inch of their lives. Local "justice", lynching, mob action, used to be far, far more common.

And of course, many people used to be worked to death. Or sold into slavery. Or die from horrid conditions in jail. Or forced into the foreign legion.

While I agree that something may be wrong in the US, there are many regions in the world where the above still happens.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by the_af on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:22AM (#37674294)
> This is only true, because prior to these times, people were killed instead. Or beaten to within an inch of their lives. Local "justice", lynching, mob action, used to be far, far more common.

Hm, sounds like an assertion that ought to be checked by a historian, possibly ACoUP's blog? (Yes, the one who writes about Rome, he is sometimes featured in HN). He specializes in demolishing misconceptions people/Hollywood have about history.

For example, many historians have been writing, recently, about how medieval society was far less brutish and cruel than portrayed in pop culture. There were laws, rights the monarch gave their subjects, culture, etc. Lots of what we "know" about the middle ages from Hollywood is simply wrong.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:41AM (#37674539)
Lots of what we "know" about from Hollywood is simply wrong :)
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by NordSteve on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:42AM (#37674551)
If you're interested in how criminal punishment changed from medieval times, Medieval Crime Museum is outstanding. https://www.germany.travel/en/cities-culture/medieval-crime-...
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by circlefavshape on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:06AM (#37672059)
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by suckitsam on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:01AM (#37674785)
"Sufficiently advanced ignorance/apathy is indistinguishable from malice"
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dang on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:49PM (#37678369)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37667150.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by singleshot_ on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:26AM (#37670114)
> No way in hell will a single defense lawyer get someone to be able to research enough to figure this out.

Why would we have to? We can just hire M. Rossant.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rossant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:53AM (#37671072)
I wish, unfortunately I'm not a criminal defense lawyer nor a medical doctor! And I don't intend to be one anytime soon. ;)

I think the most productive thing I can at least try to do is to raise awareness among lawyers, doctors, and all professionals involved. No one has the time to dig into it as much as I did, but perhaps I can organize and present our current knowledge as clearly as possible. The book is one little step in this direction.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by singleshot_ on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:54AM (#37674679)
First: I'm very sad about your son and also about your experiences afterward.

If you have the requisite "knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education" you can testify as an expert. No need to be a lawyer, don't need to be a doctor.

You gave yourself that knowledge and your knowledge exceeds that of the typical "they shook the baby" expert. I'd go with you any day.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rossant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:19AM (#37675925)
I had no idea that was possible. Thank you.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rainbowzootsuit on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:47PM (#37679357)
It seems highly likely that you and your co authors are the some of the most expert people on the planet about this subject.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:47AM (#37670664)
Similar case in Denmark/Romania where a baby was taken from his romanian parents because of the shaken baby syndrome, parents spent time in jail, but the hemorage continued over time so they had to concede it wasn't the shaken baby syndromd.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Muromec on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:40AM (#37670997)
Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by woof on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:50AM (#37671041)
Seems like the bias is on your part… Which is ironic, given the articles content….

Or do you have _evidence_?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Muromec on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:59AM (#37671125)
No, I don't have any bias, it's everybody else having biases. To be sure, I just checked how many times before I was biased (it's zero times), so I can't be now.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by fishnchips on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:23AM (#37672234)
The username kinda suggests an Eastern European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Muromets) so I read the post as a personal opinion that the bias exists.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by coldtea on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:38AM (#37672367)
Not everything comes with evidence, nor is everything a court case. If you have experienced racism again and again though, you can often tell when you see it, or you can quite safely deduce it in a case or wrong treatment, even without hard proof.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by jauzj on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:13AM (#37672630)
Racism? I didn't know Romanians and Danes were of different races.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by TRiG_Ireland on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:45AM (#37672824)
Well, now you've learned something.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by achenet on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:16AM (#37673034)
If you happen to get a bit into the whole Nazi classification of races (don't, you almost certainly have something better to learn), you'll find that they made a distinction between Germanic "Aryan" types and Slavs.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by krapp on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:30AM (#37673144)
>Conflating racial prejudice with cultural prejudice is a cheap trick.

Race is culture. There is no scientific or biological basis for the racial classifications we use. That whole framework was invented by European slave traders and imperialists to justify white supremacist ideology. At one point, Irish and Italian immigrants to the US weren't considered white. Whether Jews are white or not depends on one's opinion of them (they tend to become less white the more paranoid people become of them.) Greeks wouldn't be considered white by many people yet many white people also hold up ancient Greece as the bedrock of "white culture," which as a concept doesn't even really make sense. "Asian" defines half the human population, so broad as to be nearly useless. "Black" is a whole can of worms. None of it is scientific or objective, all of it is a social construct.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by coldtea on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:30AM (#37673145)
>Racism? I didn't know Romanians and Danes were of different races.

Now you do. In the ideology of racism (from the 19th century to the Nazis and beyond) not only Romanians and Danes are of different races, but also Nordic/Germanic/Anglosaxon are of different race to Italians, Bulgarians, Greeks, and so on, including of course the Irish. With a long history of those (and more) not considerd "white" in the US, and being persecuted by the KKK and others.

>Conflating racial prejudice with cultural prejudice is a cheap trick.

Yes, god forbid we condemn prejudice as racial when in fact it's just prejudice because of their "inferior" culture.

Of course, though, those two go hand-in-hand historically. For example, according to Nazi racism, Jews had a "damaging influence" on German culture, they promoted various forms of decadence and so on. And of course every modern racist would say they don't hate blacks as a race, just black culture and crime and so on.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:31AM (#37674410)
And yet they are wrong, so clearly evidence was needed.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by WarOnPrivacy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:09PM (#37677773)
> If you have experienced racism again and again though, you can often tell when you see it, or you can quite safely deduce it in a case or wrong treatment, even without hard proof.

There may be some overlap between systemic racial mistreatment and child abuse - however the nuances seem to set them far apart. I believe conflating the two makes it harder to get the full measure of each.

It's not that they can't be compared. It's that they ought to be fully considered in isolation first.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Matticus_Rex on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:58AM (#37674749)
Wait, are there Europeans who don't acknowledge that this bias exists? In my experience with European colleagues and those who've traveled a lot there it's so universally-acknowledged that this would surprise me.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:58AM (#37671114)
It could be, but communication issues could also be at play, plus overeager doctors/social workers. In Romania they go at great lengths not to pull children out of family environments, in Denmark and other more developed countries it could be the opposite.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by mike_hock on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:33AM (#37672759)
Implying ripping children out of their families willy-nilly is "more developed."
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by haswell on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:47AM (#37673287)
Development past a certain point is not universally a good thing.

The term is used to describe the stages a country has been through, and there’s plenty of evidence that as countries develop further, the nature of those developments may or may not be beneficial.

Brexit, online safety and other forms of “progress” come to mind.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:28AM (#37674372)
Late stage capitalism.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:48AM (#37673297)
Its tongue in cheek. Germany is developed, but you will get arrested if you try to homeschool your children.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by wincy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:28AM (#37674362)
It’s very important your children be taught whatever it is the government wants them to be taught! Which went very well for Germany in the 1930s…
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Chris2048 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:41PM (#37678244)
b/c it's seen as a basic right, and issue of equality to have access to the same level of state education. The concept of "your" children is something of the problem.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:04PM (#37678633)
It could be a problem, but usually isn’t.

The (darkly) funny thing in the case of Germany is that this lack of diversity in education has created a generation with the fertility rate of South Korea (ie dying).

In this case, the state creating a monoculture that results in the ‘destruction’ of the existing state goes to show why evolution values diversity far more than monocultures.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Chris2048 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:14PM (#37684757)
> this lack of diversity in [German] education

any evidence of that?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by madaxe_again on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:50AM (#37673871)
In a lot of sci-fi, the most “developed” civilisations have their children raised by robots in crèches.

I don’t think it was supposed to be aspirational.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bluGill on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:52AM (#37673894)
Not ripping children from actually abusive families is more developed. There are many cases of abuses families who need to lose their children, and in some those families still have children. There are other cases where good families lose their children.

Note that I carefully did not say anything about what abuse is. Unfortunately there is no agreement and I don't want to get into that debate (it is well worth having, but it would change the direction I'm trying to go here).

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:37AM (#37674485)
There are debatable issues, and clear cut issues -- not providing basic care or medical care is quite clear cut.

Homeschooling is debatable, if the children are evaluated to be equal to their regular schooled peers, I don't think the child should be taken out of the family environment, but should be subject to further wellness checks by social workers.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by WarOnPrivacy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:01PM (#37677646)
> There are many cases of abuses families who need to lose their children, and in some those families still have children.

A challenge is where the ripped-off children wind up, a foster home system with it's own abuse issues.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:34AM (#37674442)
I'm not implying anything other than the fact in Romania social workers KNOW it's very, very likely the child will fare worse fate in an orphanage or foster care, EVEN in cases that would be considered abuse in the West.

Given a more developed country, I'd presume there are more people willing to adopt/do foster care for the right reasons and the social workers can regularly check upon the welfare of the child, thus there can be legitimate reasons to lower the threshold of taking a child out of a family setting vs a less developed country.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Matticus_Rex on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:57AM (#37674722)
That's not at all the implication.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by pyrale on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:36AM (#37674465)
> in Denmark and other more developed countries it could be the opposite.

Did you mean: richer?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:45AM (#37674587)
I mean more developed, because a country like Saudi Arabia is rich but not developed imho, and there could be countries that are develope -- i.e. they have good education, infrastructure, medical care, human rights, clean environment etc etc and not that rich.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by winter_blue on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:56AM (#37674708)
> like Saudi Arabia is rich but not developed imho

> good education, infrastructure, medical care, human rights, clean environment

I don't know for sure (never been to Saudi Arabia), but I'm guessing they check off all the boxes except for human rights[1]. (About a clean environment--I imagine they'd be as clean as Abu Dhabi or Dubai (the UAE) which were a lot cleaner imo or on par with Western cities.

I guess this is a matter of subjective matter, but is _human rights_ a dimension a country has to have in order to be considered developed?

If human rights is indeed a dimension that needs to be satisfied, would that mean that the brutal treatment of black and brown minorities in the US by the police would make the U.S. a country that's not developed?

Also, Western European countries also have a track record that has historically surpassed world records for brutality. For example, Belgium[1] was chopping off the hands of African tribal people they had forced into labor (effectively enslaved), Germany murdered 6 million innocent Jewish people[2] and had a habit murdering people even before the Nazis in its colonies as well[3], the British were responsible for numerous famines in India as well as famine in Ireland as well as other atrocities[4], the French committed atrocities[5], so did the Netherlands and the Dutch with the East India Company[6], and Spain and Portugal (along with England and others) were highly culpable in the murder of millions of Native Americans[7].

Did these actions, at least temporarily, render these Western European countries as "not developed" countries?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_S...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

[4] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atroci...

[5] https://newlinesmag.com/newsletter/the-dark-legacy-of-french...

[6] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Indigenous_peoples

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by winter_blue on Monday October 02, 2023 @06:26PM (#37745274)
Sorry, I know this is an old thread, but I feel a bit like I need to share my thoughts on this matter.

> like Saudi Arabia is rich but not developed imho > good education, infrastructure, medical care, human rights, clean environment

Saudi Arabia's record on human rights is truly horrible (for example, recently they've started murdering refugees[0]), but the idea of whether a country is "developed" seems to be highly subjective, imho. I don't know for sure (never been to Saudi Arabia), but I'm guessing they check off all the boxes except for human rights[1]. (About a clean environment--I imagine they'd be as clean as Abu Dhabi or Dubai (the UAE) which were a lot cleaner imo or on par with Western cities. I guess this is a matter of subjective matter, but is human rights a dimension a country has to have in order to be considered developed? If human rights is indeed a dimension that needs to be satisfied, would that mean that the brutal treatment of black and brown minorities in the US by the police would make the U.S. a country that's not developed?

I'm asking this since Western European countries also have a track record that has historically surpassed world records for brutality. For example, Belgium[1] was chopping off the hands of African tribal people they had forced into labor (effectively enslaved), Germany murdered 6 million innocent Jewish people[2] and had a habit murdering people even before the Nazis in its colonies as well[3], the British were responsible for numerous famines in India as well as famine in Ireland as well as other atrocities[4], the French committed atrocities[5], so did the Netherlands and the Dutch with the East India Company[6], and Spain and Portugal (along with England and others) were highly culpable in the murder of millions of Native Americans[7].

Did these actions, at least temporarily, render these Western European countries as "not developed" countries?

[0][a] https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/21/saudi-arabia-mass-killin...

[0][b] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/26/world/middleeast/saudi-ki...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_S...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

[4] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atroci...

[5] https://newlinesmag.com/newsletter/the-dark-legacy-of-french...

[6] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Indigenous_peoples

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by RektBoy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:37AM (#37671823)
It also because north Europe has one of the most toxic social services in the world, kidnapping kids 24/7. That's basically their job.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by andybak on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:34AM (#37672325)
Whatever core truth you're trying to express, wording it in this way isn't helpful.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:29AM (#37674388)
No.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lawlessone on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:27PM (#37678032)
Seen complaints/protests like this in my country. Then the adult children of the lady leading these protests spoke out against her and pointed out she was just doing it to get a house and embezzling a load of GoFundMe money.

This wasn't SBS though, she just kept adopting out her kids to devote more time to her drug habits.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by NoZebra120vClip on Sunday October 08, 2023 @11:01PM (#37816510)
This is a difficult question I've been pondering between the UK/USA.

Who has more authority over their children and in which domains?

Medical providers, can they ruin kids' lives in various ways? It's easy to manipulate worried parents.

Schools, do teachers have authority over their classroom, how much? Can they override parents, for example when rescuing them from anti-LGBT?

Nobody trusts churches anymore, so that's not really a problem.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by the_af on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:01AM (#37674006)
> Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.

Honest question, trying to parse your statement (and bear in mind I don't live in Europe, so I'm surely missing the obvious): do you mean that in Denmark there is a bias against Eastern Europeans, such as Romanians?

Edit: excellent, got a downvote for asking an honest question and clarifying why I wrote it. Is this an example of the fine discourse we are supposed to have here? This is an honest question, I'm neither European nor a native English speaker and I have difficulty parsing the sentence I quoted. How on earth does this warrant downvotes?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by verteu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:48AM (#37674616)
Yes, that's what GP meant.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by thefounder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:55AM (#37674694)
Domestic violence is still common in Eastern Europe(i.e Romania) so go figure why there is a bias against Eastern Europeans.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by benregenspan on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:12PM (#37676866)
Domestic violence is higher where poverty rates are higher. (I am not saying that poverty is the sole determinant, but it closely correlates). You will find pockets of higher domestic violence throughout the US. I don't think you can rationalize bias like this, people with ethnic prejudice will look for any apparent fact pattern to support their preconceived bias.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:55AM (#37674702)
I could not say I ever experienced it, but I have school-aged relatives that moved to Germany and received all sorts of crap from their peers explicitly for being romanians. Not a race thing because they're whiter than most germans( blonde, white, blue eyes).
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by thatfrenchguy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:57AM (#37674732)
It’s not just in Denmark, most Europeans have a negative bias towards Romanian immigrants (mostly because they’re too ignorant to even know Romanians are not Roma).
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Strom on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:07PM (#37679662)
> because they’re too ignorant to even know Romanians are not Roma

I don't think the term Roma has a bad association, because in my experience nobody but the most woke even know it. That is the PC term. People I've encountered just use gypsy or their local equivalent.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by semanticist on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:17AM (#37675888)
For your edit: 'honest questions' (which are in fact anything but: the person asking has no interest in the answer, and the question itself is often leading) are a common disruptive tactic used by people (normally pushing extreme right-wing ideologies) to derail a conversation.

I'm sure that you're not doing that here, but unfortunately people with genuinely honest questions have become collateral damage caused by disingenuous actors, especially among people with itchy downvote-trigger-fingers.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by the_af on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:34PM (#37677231)
Yeah, I figured, which is why my original question clarified I'm not from Europe (so no vested interest) and that I might be genuinely missing the obvious answer. Which is why I was surprised by the drive-by downvote.

Thankfully people have responded and now I both understand the sentence and they why!

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Chris2048 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:37PM (#37678197)
this "are a common tactic" gets a bit old, good way to gatekeep certain topics.

If the same "tactic" is used, why not come up with a good counter? A point stands whether it's being asked disingenuously or not.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Macha on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:59AM (#37676654)
Yes. Romanians probably get the worst of it from the association with Roma in general who are generally discriminated against, but there is generally a base level of anti eastern-european discrimination among western Europe (and especially the UK). Not that all or most western Europeans do this, but it's a significant enough minority that does that it's unavoidable.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by red_admiral on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:21AM (#37674279)
There is a skin condition called Mongolian (Blue) Spot (wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot ) that doctors can mistake for an infant being beaten or otherwise abused. It has led to a lot of cases of false accusations and children being forcibly removed from their parents who were then charged with child abuse.

According to Wikipedia, as to the distribution of this condition,

> The birthmark is prevalent among East, South, Southeast, North and Central Asian peoples, Indigenous Oceanians (chiefly Micronesians and Polynesians), certain populations in Africa, Amerindians, non-European Latin Americans and Caribbeans of mixed-race descent.

So you can see how, in a Western European nation, even if no-one is being biased in the sense of "hating foreigners", the false accusations would cluster in "non-indigenous" populations, for want of a better word (I originally had "immigrants" then realised that isn't the correct split I'm looking for.). Personally I believe there is no defense for doctors, courts and social workers not knowing about this and checking for it before making any accusations.

This doesn't seem to apply to Romanians / Eastern Europeans specifically, unless they have partly Asian ancestry, but it does show that there are conditions that can be mistaken for abuse that appear in some cultures more than others.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bitxbitxbitcoin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:59AM (#37675592)
Damn that hits home. I’ve got a blue spot birthmark that was seen at elementary school which then led to child services showing up at home. This happened in the US and everyone involved was “non Indigenous.”
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by red_admiral on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:34PM (#37677238)
Sorry to hear that happened to you - and I realise that "indigenous" in the U.S. means the opposite to some of Europe, sorry!

I'm guessing if some kind of Commanche social worker turned up to look at a case of blue spot, they'd go "Yeah that's a birthmark, about half our children have it, our nation even has legends about it. Have a nice day!".

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dang on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:48PM (#37678352)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37670664.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by cornholio on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:19AM (#37671254)
The trouble is: shaken baby syndrome is real and well documented. Because the crime is so abhorrent, people strongly want to believe the diagnostic tools to be much more sensitive and accurate than they really seem to be.

It's the classic "N guilty men" problem, aka Blackstone's ratio: if you risk putting one innocent person in jail, how many guilty people you need to catch to make it morally justifiable? 5, 10? 100?

You have to pick a number, or else no kind of criminal justice can exist.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:46AM (#37671432)
In the article it clearly states that shaking does not cause the hemorrhage that's currently considered "shaken baby syndrome". It literally says there aren't documented cases where the shaking was captured on tape/testified and the symptoms present at the same time.

It's more likely that a fall (or being thrown) would cause the symptoms.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by hoseja on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:03AM (#37671567)
I read it as no cases where shaking caused ONLY the retinal/subdural haemorrhage, without any other trauma.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rossant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:31AM (#37671781)
That's indeed what I said, but I was cautious. I'd have to dig into the latest literature to be sure, but I don't remember seeing even 1 case where shaking with no impact was independently witnessed or videotaped, and was shown to cause retinal/subdural haemorrhage, with or without any other form of trauma.

In any case, these situations are extremely rare, much more than those involving any kind of head impact.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by robbiep on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:26AM (#37673107)
You need to work on your comprehension
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dang on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:57PM (#37678504)
Please don't cross into personal attack. You can make your substantive points without that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Justsignedup on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:10PM (#37676838)
The better way to think of what you said is:

If toyota cars unintentionally accelerate and kill people, but sometimes people mistakenly accelerate and kill people. If I am driving a toyota and accelerate and kill a person, if 100% of all cops/investigators believe the first case doesn't exist, and the second case is the only possible answer, I will be thrown in jail without a second thought; my life is destroyed, and it wasn't even my fault.

But more than that, we don't even know what the ratios are, is it 90% / 10%? is it 10% / 90%? is it 50/50? Because everyone believes it is 0%/100% we can't make the "N guilty men" decision at all, so we need a hard stop, evidence, and re-start.

I know you were downvoted, but I think your thoughts are exactly the problem I am trying to point out. So thank you for commenting on it.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by tokai on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:34AM (#37672761)
Even if the kids hemorrhaging continued, it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by raducu on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:39AM (#37674508)
I did not know this detail, I know the Danish state offered apologies, the charges were dropped and the child was returned to the parents.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by tokai on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:49AM (#37674638)
Yeah, nobody know the exact parts of the case. As its semi-secret (to protect the child and parents I guess). While the parents were cleared, this case is definitely not appropriate to this discussion as it was definitely not only hemorrhaging that started it. If a hospital gets a toddler with fractures on their skull, society should damn well figure out how it got them and stop it from happening again.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by grog454 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:33PM (#37679111)
> If a hospital gets a toddler with fractures on their skull, society should damn well figure out how it got them and stop it from happening again.

What a leap (the kind the article is calling out by the way). Do you really think all causes for toddler skull fractures are a societal problem?

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by ameister14 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:38PM (#37680965)
I do.

If a child has a serious injury the circumstances should be examined, as it should be quite rare for children to have serious injuries.

That's why places have Child Death and Serious Injury Review Committees.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by michaelmrose on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:24AM (#37685996)
So in order to form an informed opinion we have to figure out the relative costs and benefits of various options. Lets start by examining assumptions. Here we have

Fractures among children: incidence and impact on daily activities

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/194

wherein we discover that kids 0-12 break bones at an incidence of 128 per 10,000. Over 12 years that's more like 1536 or about 15% of kids if injuries were evenly distributed, although they probably aren't. Still in the right ballpark.

So serious injuries among kids are incredibly common.

If we launch investigations and get it right 95% of the time we will none the less fuck up millions of kids lives. We would probably be better off selectively investigating when there is at least some reason to believe something is afoot instead of every injury.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by ameister14 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:14AM (#37687976)
First things first - 85% of the fractures you're talking about are arm and leg fractures. Skull fractures, which was what I was talking about, are a significantly smaller number.

But yes, we should investigate why the child broke their arm. Does that need to be an in-depth investigation? Not usually. But it's important to understand why these things happen; that's where the data for the study you cited comes from.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by aidenn0 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:46PM (#37680227)
As a toddler, my daughter fell out of her bed from a height of less than 18 inches and broke her collar-bone. It seems plausible to me that if she had landed on her head rather than her shoulder, she could have fractured her skull. I'm not sure that society needs to be in the business of preventing all falls from such a small height!
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by paradox242 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:15PM (#37680635)
I fully understand where you are coming from, but have you had a toddler?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by WarOnPrivacy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:20PM (#37677938)
> it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.

Just to defuse this a bit. My #4 used to collect skull fractures. He'd slip away in a nanosecond and would be 50' above us two heartbeats later. We put him in a padded helmet for a year or so. It stayed on sometimes.

As an adult he can still disappear in an empty room.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by nelox on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:51AM (#37671053)
Try that in a court which doesn’t recognise the reliability of evidence provided by an “expert” witness.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:12AM (#37673512)
>> how many people are in jail or lost their kids due to something that didn't actually happen.

Thousands upon thousands. By some estimates upwards of 10% of incarcerated individuals. The situation is just accepted. The general consensus is always that locking up too many people is better than than too few. It is on defense attorneys to check on the system.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lqet on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:29AM (#37673660)
Are you saying that 10% of incarcerated individuals are innocent (which I do not find an unrealistic number), or are you saying that 10% of incarcerated individuals are wrongly in prison for crimes against their children?
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:36AM (#37675284)
10% of people are innocent of the crimes for which they have been convicted. Whole innocence is another thing. But yes, there are a huge number of people wrongfully convicted. Things like DNA evidence is showing us that a great many mistakes are made. For those crimes convicted without things like DNA evidence, one must presume an equal rate of wrongful convictions. Courts are not FAA crash investigations, or any other sort of investigation. They are not about truth. They are about rights and laws. There is no right to a truthful outcome, only a lawful one.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by lqet on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:04AM (#37675671)
I agree, but I think OP referred to crimes involving violence against their own children.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rossant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:16AM (#37675870)
Yes. I suggest everyone to look into the fantastic work done by the Innocence Project [1] and the Innocence Network [2].

Also, the Innocence Files is a must-watch on Netflix [3].

[1] https://innocenceproject.org/

[2] https://innocencenetwork.org/

[3] https://www.netflix.com/title/80214563

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by Dah00n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:33AM (#37674436)
Not everywhere is the US.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dcow on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:46AM (#37674598)
This isn’t even true for the US. In the US we believe it’s better to let a criminal run free than deprive an innocent of their liberty.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by kmkemp on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:20AM (#37675058)
That seems to be the sentiment based on our founding origins or if you talk to an individual, but the fact is that we imprison more people per capita than anyone else. It's hard for me to believe that all of the criminals just live in the USA.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by nemo44x on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:11PM (#37676840)
About 70% of convicts in prison are there for violent offenses and should be there. The remaining 30% is mainly drug and property crimes.

Now it’s important to understand what is meant when people reference incarceration numbers. A lot of these are people awaiting trial on charges they will be found guilty of but receive minimal sentences via plea bargaining. Another large portion are illegal immigrants that are awaiting processing for either integration or deportation.

So if you erase those 2 groups it’s mainly violent people. There’s an abundance of violent people in the USA compared to Western Europe and certainly Asia I’d say.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by MacsHeadroom on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:06AM (#37674864)
"It is better to let 100 criminals go free than to imprison 1 innocent man." — Benjamin Franklin
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:39AM (#37675311)
A quote I have never heard from anyone running to be a DA, judge, sheriff, magistrate, or any other participant beyond defense attorneys. Such sayings do not reflect reality.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by rossant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:17AM (#37675893)
I've seen police officers say the exact opposite: "It's better to imprison 100 innocent people than risking letting 1 criminal go free and harm children".

Sigh.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by bell-cot on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:53AM (#37674668)
> In the US we believe...

Sadly, that varies enormously with the social status and wealth of the accused.

Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by eecc on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:38AM (#37674488)
Imagine when it’s not just locking up, but spills over to state homicide: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/24/texas-death-ro...
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by dang on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:51PM (#37678398)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37667150.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by eitally on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:56AM (#37673950)
The ironic thing here is that these sorts of innocuous bumps and minor traumas regularly lead to severe medical complications and deaths in older children & adults, too. The only difference here is that babies & toddlers are too young to be able to verbalize and advocate for themselves in ways that most adults recognize & respect.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by emodendroket on Thursday September 28, 2023 @01:01AM (#37685407)
Since having a kid and reading a lot I've been bothered by how clearly a lot of what is labeled as "SIDS" is pretty clearly accidental suffocation. The conclusion is impossible to escape when you begin reading about measures that have "reduced SIDS." Yet I also wonder if continuing to observe this social fiction is just a way of keeping overzealous prosecutors and other crusaders from locking up and treating as depraved murderers grieving families for accidental deaths.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by stdbrouw on Thursday September 28, 2023 @06:42AM (#37687722)
Not an expert but it seems to me you'd be making the same kind of error that the article denounces: attaching equal value to direct evidence on the one hand and inference to the best explanation on the other. If a physician does not observe tell-tale signs of suffocation in an infant, then it is not their role to say "Well, statistically speaking, or logically speaking, pretty good chance it's accidental suffocation isn't it? I'll jot this down as Accidental Suffocation Syndrome" or alternatively "I know in my heart that this is accidental suffocation but let's just call it SIDS for the benefit of the parents" but rather they should simply conclude "there's not enough evidence, therefore this death remains unexplained".
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by emodendroket on Thursday September 28, 2023 @10:41AM (#37690222)
Some measures that reportedly reduce “SIDS” include assembling the crib properly and not putting soft objects that could smother the baby in the crib. Risk factors include lower parental educational attainment. You tell me if I’m being unreasonable attributing a death from the crib collapsing to suffocation and not a mysterious, poorly understood disease.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by stdbrouw on Thursday September 28, 2023 @01:16PM (#37692684)
I mean, I don't mind, you can attribute whatever to whatever and yeah, a crib full of plush toys doesn't seem like such a smart idea... but the question is what a doctor should do, how we want them to behave in the face of limited evidence.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by emodendroket on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:06PM (#37693330)
SIDS is intended as a diagnosis of last resort but is often used with little digging so it's not really any different than the case this article discusses, except with the opposite result. I never demanded that doctors start doing something different but I think it's pretty obvious we're just collectively leaving some stones unturned here.
Re:A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trau... by emodendroket on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:56AM (#37691460)
These do bolster my point but it becomes more striking in resources intended for parents where one minute they’re telling you the mechanism of SIDS is poorly understood and the next they’re giving you advice that is clearly about removing suffocation risks from the sleeping environment. Though there is similarly strange advice about “preventing shaken baby syndrome” which turns out to be just anger management tips. I guess the sensitive nature of the topic makes frank discussion difficult.