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Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericbarrett on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:05AM (#31607676)
A couple of days ago somebody posted this Reddit thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/v2lpdw/e...

"Tesla expanded massively during Covid, as of now half of the dev team(including me) don’t have parking space or desk. It’s physically impossible for everyone to return to office.

"Should I ignore the email, or should I drive to the office and sit under the stairs?"

Commenters' general feeling was that it was a soft layoff, and some speculated that it might amount to constructive dismissal.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by PheonixPharts on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:33AM (#31608838)
I'm suspecting that we'll see forced return to office as a way to implement layoffs without as much bad PR. Stock will go up since costs will drop, but management will be able to say that is more an issue with return to office rather than a company failing. "We're doing great, it's just that some employees don't share our commitment and focus on doing things well, and making our mission a priority."

There has been a sudden uptick in return to office talk (despite plenty of reporting that covid is actually much worse than people realize now). Other people on HN have mentioned it and all of a sudden the leadership at my office, who were always extremely pro-remote work have suddenly started making mention of how valuable in-face communication is.

So the feeling of a "soft layoff" might be the intended effect.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericmay on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:50AM (#31609081)
The main issue with that approach is that you basically also lay off all of your good workers who prefer remote. Maybe it's worth the cost for employers. Idk. We're remote-first and hiring. Looking forward to chatting with these employees once companies try and implement their in-office policies.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by PheonixPharts on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:08AM (#31609341)
Been through a couple of layoffs at a variety of different companies through out my career and personally managed to dodge the bullet each time (so this isn't a sour grapes type response). It is very important to recognize: who gets laid off has nothing to do with whether or not they are a "good worker".

The "good worker" narrative is there to justify management's decisions and reduce survivor's guilt, but you'll see when layoffs come amazing talent and mediocre talent are equally removed. Management has zero problem laying off incredible people en masse.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericmay on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:14AM (#31609428)
Yes but in this case we're talking about returning to the office, which doesn't have the exact same dynamics.

In the case of the return to office dynamic, you're specifically filtering out high-quality workers who also prefer to be remote, and the results are retention of all low/medium quality workers regardless of remote/office preference, and high quality workers who don't mind or have some reason that keeps them in the office. You don't filter out low-quality workers whatsoever because they'll at least go to the office to keep their job assuming they don't have options (or else they'd be higher quality workers or maybe they just leave the work force).

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Beldin on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:38PM (#31610595)
> you're specifically filtering out...

...everyone for whom a full return to the office is a breaking point. You assume that correlates with capability of the employeeto perform their job well.

That does seem reasonable, but it remains just that: an assumption. And you know the thing about assumptions : they make a donkey out of U and MPTIONS.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Shaanie on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:46PM (#31610683)
No, he's assuming that low performers would have a harder time finding a new job with equal or better pay. Which may or may not be true.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Beldin on Saturday June 04, 2022 @02:15AM (#31617541)
Why would they be looking for a new job if this wasn't a breaking point or final straw for them?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericmay on Saturday June 04, 2022 @09:17AM (#31619958)
They wouldn't be, which is why I believe this forced return to office action just filters out high-performers who wish to remain remote and it retains almost all of the low/medium skill workers and almost all of the high-skill no preference or work in office preferred high skill workers.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sillysaurusx on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:31AM (#31609698)
As a fly on the wall, I think you both agree! Both of your points are very good and aren’t mutually exclusive at all. Quite the opposite.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by XorNot on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:56AM (#31610072)
Keep in mind though that Elon can just say this, even send the memo... Then fire who he wants anyway, keep whoever is still remote and kept and pitch to the market that this "realignment" has made the company stronger by sucking right up to the expectations of your average distrustful exec.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Robotbeat on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:37PM (#31612051)
How true is the claim that a hybrid WFH/in-person setup is worse than either pure WFH or pure in-person? I’ve seen many claim that it causes a cultural disconnect. I’ve wanted to defend the hybrid scenario, and yet I’ve also seen many problems with communication in a hybrid setup.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericmay on Saturday June 04, 2022 @09:19AM (#31619981)
Personally, I think all three are equal. Each have merits and pros and cons. What we should do is leave people to decide what arrangement works best for them. Though companies can also decide what they think works best for their organization, in which case employees may have to leave or join new organizations depending on their work preferences or their options.

All this to say here in response that I'm increasingly irritated at the, what's the right word? Polarization? Radicalization? Politicization? Of work options and how those options are creating new tribes and battlegrounds.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by hedora on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:53AM (#31609122)
Here's the covid sewage data for Silicon Valley:

https://covid19.sccgov.org/dashboard-wastewater

A week or so ago, it didn't look too bad. It is indeed much worse than I realized right now.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by notabee on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:08AM (#31609332)
I think the parent poster might also be talking about consequences, such as this gem that the CDC dropped recently. 20% of the working age adult population possibly having new onset long term health effects. Oops! (And that's not even getting into things like whether certain chopped up viral fragments might be seeding protein tangles and thus Alzheimer's or Parkinson's.)

>These findings translate to one in five COVID-19 survivors aged 18–64 years, and one in four survivors aged ≥65 years experiencing an incident condition that might be attributable to previous COVID-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7121e1.htm

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by AuryGlenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:58AM (#31610119)
Eh, this limitation mentioned in the study seems pretty huge to me:

> Finally, the study only assessed conditions thought to be attributable to COVID-19 or post-COVID illness, which might have biased RRs away from the null. For example, clinicians might have been more likely to document possible post-COVID conditions among case-patients. In addition, because several conditions examined are also risk factors for moderate to severe COVID-19, it is possible that case-patients were more likely to have had an existing condition that was not documented in their EHR during the year preceding their COVID-19 diagnosis, resulting in overestimated risk for this group.

It also seems very possible that people with COVID diagnoses would be more likely to be on edge about their health / long COVID type symptoms. It also would have been nice if they differentiated things that can actually be tested for vs. things that can’t.

I’m not saying there isn’t an effect. I had bad cases of COVID twice. The first time I didn’t have any apparent effects afterwards other than my sense of taste taking a while to come back. After the second time - Delta - I definitely had some after effects.

We just need to be careful about claiming how many people get them. People are placeboing themselves into actually having symptoms (or thinking they do), and it’s hard to design studies to get around that.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by notabee on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:57PM (#31610805)
For sure, that overall number could vary a lot, and this really needs further breakdown that distinguishes between more minor, annoying effects versus fairly life altering ones (like new diabetes or significant kidney damage). There was another one about breakthrough outcomes that did distinguish a difference in risk reduction for various severe and non-severe post-acute effects (the TL;DR being, vaccine breakthroughs are less severe but still far from harmless):

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1529477481127759872.html

Many of these are amenable to direct observation though. Research has already had many objective findings such as lung fibrosis, kidney function damage, abnormal liver function tests, shrunken brain matter (UK biobank study), etc. So the overall number might be debateable, but this is almost certainly going to have a significant impact on the number of healthy workers, not to mention the personal tragedies behind those statistics.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by marcosdumay on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:53AM (#31610029)
Risk is the product of probability and severity. The OP is talking about severity being corrected upwards, while the GP is talking about probability increasing too.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by marcosdumay on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:52AM (#31610003)
The data from my country looks like if there was a new immunity-escaping variant that causes even less grave symptoms than omicron. It's... well, it's not "good", I guess "validating" is the word here... so, it's "validating" to see other places following the same trend.

Here hospitalization and deaths are not following the infection curve at all. They are still following the end of the earlier omicron curve.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dan_quixote on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:37PM (#31610581)
Anecdata: Everyone I know with kids in elementary school is reporting major outbreaks at school for the first time in the era of Covid. This includes my family. The transmissibility (specifically among kids) appears to be significantly higher than before. And the symptoms fortunately appear to be light for everyone I know who's caught it recently.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lupire on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:08AM (#31609335)
Meh. Wastewater has everything in it, but not things aren't checked for. Covid is now too broad a term that includes far less dangerous variants.

You need to draw a line between Covid and colds, or else count colds like Covid.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by anarticle on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:26AM (#31609611)
Biochemist here: the test for wastewater is quantitative PCR, which is specific to COVID. It's not COVID and "other viruses".

Here's the protocol: https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/surveillance/wastewater-sur...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by AareyBaba on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:18PM (#31613744)
The data matches a spike in actual cases. See https://covid19.sccgov.org/dashboard-cases-and-deaths
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ryanbrunner on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:11PM (#31612418)
For all intents and purposes, right now COVID in a particular area is either going to be 100% a single variant, or a variant in the process of outcompeting another variant. There hasn't been a situation where there's been equilibrium between multiple variants that I'm aware of.

Also, there is no common variant of COVID that is anywhere near as mild any virus we call "common cold". In the best case (Omicron for a young, boosted individual) it's comparable with influenza in terms of severity.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by loceng on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:22PM (#31610440)
Elon has in the past talked about a growth-pruning cycle, so this is likely part of that - planned to some degree.

I imagine, too, if there are "100x engineers" (or whatever their role is) there may be compromise otherwise that's not generally applied; I would however think that someone who's that production - unless it's somehow a mostly solo role - would necessarily need to be on-site to utilize whatever resources necessary.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by rzz3 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:03PM (#31610187)
But at this point everyone knows. It’s already become mainstream business news. If other companies try this, the market will absolutely know they’re lying, and additionally lack the transparency and morality to actually admit they need to do layoffs.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by scarab92 on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:20PM (#31615855)
I'm not convinced this is a case of "soft layoffs". You'll save on severence costs, but those costs are so small compared to the cost of having no control over who decides to leave.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by WinstonSmith84 on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:19AM (#31609498)
this might be a good excuse for companies under-performing but others doing (rather) well, will be (are) able to save a lot of costs (office spaces is #2 expenditure for software companies). And then the added possibility to recruit talent worldwide (and paying those in developing countries a fraction of resources in US / EU :-) )
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by yashap on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:34AM (#31608852)
I know a lawyer who works exclusively in the tech space, who’s dealt with Musk companies a number of times. He said they use the slimiest tactics he’s ever seen, are constantly acting in bad faith. Would not surprise me one bit if this was an attempt to get people to quit so he could avoid paying severance.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by iancmceachern on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:18PM (#31612490)
I know automation, engineering consulting firms, etc. who have done business w/ Tesla and I have heard thr same types of stories. Often they (Tesla) just burn through relationships, many companies choose to not do business with them a second time.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kderbyma on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:18PM (#31614994)
Musk seems like that's his entire personality. Burn bridges - buy new ones....
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by moonchrome on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:01AM (#31608407)
>half of the dev team(including me) don’t have parking space

Isn't your Tesla supposed to be robotaxi, driving around autonomously while you work ? Why do you need parking spaces ?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by cianmm on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:22AM (#31609538)
Wouldn't it be fantastic if the solution to this problem ended up being public transit and bikes?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by martin8412 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:37PM (#31610587)
Why do you think Elon Musk hates work from home so much? He's in business of selling cars. People need less cars or no car at all if they don't have to commute.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by wonderwonder on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:11PM (#31610984)
The fact that its not a great situation aside, the concept of an engineer making ~300k plus a year having to setup a little office Harry Potter style on the floor under the stairs is pretty funny in a "its so egregious its funny" way. Imagine hiring people, paying them a ton of money and then saying everyone has to come into the office due to the CEO's arrogance but having zero infrastructure setup to handle these people. So millionaires (not that any income level should have to endure this) are working under the stairs or in the lobby to appease the God King. Its pretty bad and pretty amusing too.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by say_it_as_it_is on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:47AM (#31608218)
Obviously, people who value their jobs show up earlier to claim a parking space and a desk. Coffee is for closers.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by almost_usual on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:55AM (#31608317)
Might as well live at work.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ctvo on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:03AM (#31608427)
points at head can't lose your desk to someone else if you never leave it.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ProAm on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:14AM (#31608562)
Google has entered the chat with onsite laundry and free food.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by commandlinefan on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:42AM (#31608961)
The e-mail did say "minimum" of 40 hours - emphasis on the "minimum" part.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by hedora on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:03AM (#31609276)
Didn't say you had to be awake. Could sleep under your desk, then WFH.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by rascul on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:22AM (#31608677)
Follow Elon's example. He knows what's best.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-reportedly-sleeping...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by grogenaut on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:37AM (#31608899)
Maybe Elon read https://www.richardkmorgan.com/writing/market-forces/ and thought it was a good time to implement capitalism 2.0. He's got the cars, the engineers, open roads in Texas, and the vision, he can make it happen!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lupire on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:10AM (#31609366)
Texas is too liberal, but he also has the giant drill to build Hyperloops under Galt's Gulch.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by is0tope on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:41AM (#31608951)
Like the Market Forces plug :)
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by rdl on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:25AM (#31609590)
That is one of my favorite sci fi novels!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by gamblor956 on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:53PM (#31612875)
Commenters' general feeling was that it was a soft layoff, and some speculated that it might amount to constructive dismissal.

Another instance of Tesla violating labor laws, this time to get out of paying unemployment....

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by elif on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:44PM (#31612120)
if they desire sympathy for being forced to sit under stairs, maybe they should first be forced to sit under stairs before offering self-serving excuses.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by jonnycomputer on Sunday June 05, 2022 @02:01PM (#31633356)
ooohkay Elon.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by diogenescynic on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:20AM (#31608654)
>constructive dismissal

TIL and now that I know the term, I think I've had several employers use similar tactics.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Seriomino on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:52AM (#31609107)
Smart right?

Should be enough time to evaluate whom to keep and not offending anyone directly by stating economic issues

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Uehreka on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:23AM (#31609566)
Well, except for the part where there are news articles with him talking about doing a layoff because the economy is super bad. But maybe Tesla’s workers have drank the “all journalism is clickbait” kool-aid and don’t read the news. In which case this becomes smart again.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Seriomino on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:57PM (#31614193)
Yes that what I meant. Using it as an excuse
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Karawebnetwork on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:16AM (#31608607)
This reminds me of Musk's recent comments about "political attacks against him in the coming days".

It has since been learned that he had been reached by Business Insider to comment about the sexual abuse case beforehand. He already knew that an article against him was coming so he framed the narrative before it even reached the public.

I would not be surprised this was the same here. Tell everyone "Leave if you don't like it or we will fire you" when you very well know that 10% of the workforce will need to be dismissed.

This is pure speculations but would not be surprising at all. I cannot imagine that the company's management is unable to do the math on number of employees vs. number of workstations.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ethanbond on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:19AM (#31608635)
Yeah, since the BI story – and in particular his attempt to frontrun it and turn his personal legal troubles into a culture war battleground – I think we can assume pretty slimy tactics from Musk.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by deelowe on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:48AM (#31609043)
I started assuming this after Musk called that cave exploration expert in Thailand a pedophile.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by karmakurtisaani on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:58AM (#31610114)
After that comment I decided never to buy a Tesla if I can afford one. Good car, scumbag CEO.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by TremendousJudge on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:05PM (#31610214)
Haven't the alternatives caught up to them, anyway? Most of the EV coverage I see nowadays is for cars made by traditional manufacturers, and are always saying that they match teslas (or are big improvements, such as the f150 lightning)
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:55PM (#31610787)
I'm really hoping someone creates a viable alternative to the Roadster 2.0
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by olyjohn on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:41PM (#31611393)
There's plenty of alternative vaporware cars out there that will also never hit production.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:25PM (#31612565)
I'm not convinced it's vaporware. Behind schedule? Absolutely. But Elon has always been shitty about time estimates.

Same with Cybertruck and the Semi. They will come out eventually. It might be another 2-4 years, but they will happen.

I even think full self driving will eventually be achieved. It might be another 10 years, but we'll get there.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sylens on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:12PM (#31611771)
Yup, this was my jumping off point as well
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by YinglingLight on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:35AM (#31609745)
When was this?

There is a big difference between Elon Musk pre and post-March 2018. For reasons that would take weeks to explain.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by mdasen on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:05PM (#31610212)
It looks like it was July 15, 2018.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/elon-musk-calls-diver-who-helpe...

If there's a big difference pre/post-March 2018, it would be nice if you could point people in a direction.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by tristanMatthias on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:04PM (#31610199)
Curious, what’s the TLDR on this? Or some resources to learn more?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by deelowe on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#31641925)
Some kids got trapped in a cave in Thailand. Elon said Tesla would build a small submarine to get them out. A local cave expert who was advising the Thai government on how to handle the rescue operation said the Tesla idea was a pipedream and suggested a more practical solution. He called the Tesla proposal a "PR Stunt." Elon got upset and started bad mouthing the guy on twitter, eventually calling him a pedophile. Elon's rationale seemed to be that because the guy was an older, white male living in Thailand, he must be into pedophilia... The guy sued for defamation and Elon ended up winning because his defense argued Elon didn't really mean it. I'm serious...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50695593

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by stickfigure on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:50AM (#31609965)
Of all the things to complain about Musk, this seems like the weakest. Some dude started a twitter fight with Musk and got called a "pedo guy" in response. Sounds like a South African response to me. I'm guessing you've never spent time with Australians, they call everyone cunts. Who cares?

Potty mouth is not a mortal sin.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kentm on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:16PM (#31610366)
Maybe you missed the part where Musk hired a private investigator to prove that the guy was a pedophile. The investigator lied about the evidence, and Musk did no due diligence but directed his PR team to leak those lies to the media, and then threw a hissy fit when the media didn't reprint those lies uncritically.

The whole "pedo guy is just a generic insult" is a laughable lie that Musk tried to float in court. The evidence is that Musk tried to ruin a guy because he had the audacity to call out his publicity stunt when directly asked during an interview. You need to stop defending Musk on this because what he did was incredibly dick-headed and vindictive.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by stickfigure on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:29PM (#31610506)
The investigator lying about evidence is news to me, but hiring an investigator when someone sues you seems perfectly fair game? I mean, if you sued me over something frivolous and I had the resources for it, I'd tear your life apart too. Exchanging insults on twitter is one thing, filing lawsuits is something completely different.

Nobody comes across looking pretty here, sure. But it's a real struggle to care one way or another about it. Sounds like that's exactly what the jury thought.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kentm on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:47PM (#31610702)
Musk hired the investigator before the diver sued. The diver sued because Musk basically said "No it wasn't just an insult, I really believe he's a pedophile and I have evidence" to multiple parties. Musk tried to ruin a guys life because he said that Musk's submarine was a publicity stunt. In no way, shape, or form are what they did equivalent and you have a serious moral deficiency if you think they are. Its incredible to me that anyone would try to draw a moral equivalency here.

> Nobody comes across looking pretty here, sure. But it's a real struggle to care one way or another about it. Sounds like that's exactly what the jury thought.

The jury found for Musk because Musk didn't name the guy in his tweets. Thats why the diver lost. I don't think you can extrapolate from that verdict to "actually they were both equally bad."

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by the_only_law on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:54AM (#31610049)
> I'm guessing you've never spent time with Australians, they call everyone cunts. Who cares?

Being called a cunt by some jackass Australian and being called a pedophile by a wealthy influential individual are probably going to have wildly different effects on your life and how people see you. being a cunt alone is not a serious offense that ruins the lives of everyone involved.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sdfhdhjdw3 on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:03PM (#31610891)
> Of all the things to complain about Musk, this seems like the weakest.

I would argue it's the strongest.

"Pedo" is one of those accusations that sticks around associated with your name, often even when it's false.

Knowing that, Elon Musk, one of the best known people on the planet at this stage, called this to a real person. This can ruin a person's life. Did he have any evidence, even circumstantial? Nope. Did he have a reason for this attack? Only that he felt slighted.

So Elon Musk is ok with potentially ruining someone's life if he even as much as feels slighted.

I think even is the strongest hint of what his character is like. And character is, you could argue, the most important predictor of future behavior. I took this hint of character at face value, and after that I've never been surprised when I've since heard accusations of fraud or sexual harassment. No surprise whatsoever.

So if your reaction to this is Elon Must has potty mouth, you're either breathtakingly stupid or dishonest.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daniel-cussen on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:51AM (#31609091)
Hey after all that activity on Twitter you gotta give him leeway at some point, just like a cop who's been in a thousand conflicts gets a pass when things go wrong, there has to be a margin of error.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Broken_Hippo on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:57AM (#31609186)
I'm hoping this was sarcasm.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daniel-cussen on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:15PM (#31613722)
Like you're in any position to chide me?

It's a common South African insult, in fact I've heard classmates say it to one another in early high school for dating girls in late middle school. It's a word, people sometimes say it. There's a context. It wasn't a formal accusation. One in thousands of comments, you actually expect perfection from Musk and police?

Let me tell you as someone who has pulled off exactly that in 28 conflicts, as if they were 28 chess matches, I haven't fucked up this whole time. It's fucking impossible in the long term. Narrowest odds imaginable. That's not fucking up at all, much harder than merely winning 28 times in a row, which is already staggering. You have to let us fuck up sometimes, let it go. Someday I'll fuck up. Especially due to manipulation eg a racketeer as a last resort, when arrest was imminent, angled his back to get injured by police, in order to get a lighter sentence by countering the guilt of crime with an accusation of police brutality (SFPD police didn't fall for it, not even close).

The bad guys want us to fuck up, it's not easy to foil them every single time. Saying this is possible implies strict inferiority on the part of the bad guys.

And if you expect perfection from the police, you ought to tell them that next time you call them to come vindicate you. So they know you might yourself accuse them of brutalizing your victimizer.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by heavyset_go on Saturday June 04, 2022 @02:51AM (#31617709)
Musk called the hero that helped save children's lives a pedophile on three separate occasions in front of his audience of millions. This wasn't a one-time mistake, it was a deliberate public smear campaign against the man.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dragon-hn on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:24PM (#31614433)
Respectfully, what in the world are you talking about?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daniel-cussen on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:20PM (#31615013)
Elon Musk spoke in public. I interceded in crimes. Police fight crime.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

-- Theodore Roosevelt

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Broken_Hippo on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:48AM (#31619249)
Like you're in any position to chide me?

Obviously.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by res0nat0r on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:05PM (#31610222)
Also the 20% drop of $TSLA since he announced his idiotic bid for Twitter and the potential fallout from that I'm sure is related.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by belter on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:34AM (#31608860)
Slimy tactics?

From the person that said one of his companies can fix Spinal and Brain injuries?: https://youtu.be/cgyFL5Hzy-s?t=1312

Surely...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dharmaturtle on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:01AM (#31609246)
Meh. The youtuber criticizes Musk's statement "This is something we could fix" by saying "He does not say 'This is something we _might_ be able to fix.'"

Seconds later, the youtuber goes on to criticize Musk's disclaimer of "I'm not saying this is going to solve everything... it's something that _might_ be helpful."

You just can't win with these "skeptics".

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by haspok on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:09AM (#31609352)
Another golden Musk gem: "I am very confident that...".

The guy doesn't say anything, yet he makes everyone believe he did. Genius. The best salesperson in the world for sure.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by belter on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:29PM (#31610514)
You missed the part where Elon Musk says it will take a few years before then can do a "brain memory upload".

So they will be content of spending the first decade "just" fixing spine and brain injuries: https://youtu.be/cgyFL5Hzy-s?t=1116

Then Elon Musk says he will solve Schizophrenia, Depression and Morbid Obesity: https://youtu.be/cgyFL5Hzy-s?t=1137

Yes,...really what is with the skeptics? Can't the recognize a genius when they see one?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dharmaturtle on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:48PM (#31611494)
Oh god I demonstrate how the timestamped quote is incorrect and now I've attracted the attention of the Musk anti-fans.

Let me be clear: Musk is human. He has positive and negative qualities. His Thailand pedo comments were, to put it bluntly, fucking retarded. His autopilot timeline was wildly optimistic. His behavior on Twitter is infantile.

And yet this is not carte blanche to twist his words into something unrecognizable. You can't just criticize someone for not being nuanced, then criticize their disclaimer that happens seconds later. That's intellectually dishonest. At that point I stopped listening because it is clear (to me) that the youtuber has an agenda to push.

As to your comments, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is it incorrect to believe that brain implants may lead to solutions to these problems?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by belter on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:56PM (#31611597)
Guy says he will provide a brain implant to upload human memories to a computer and says he CAN fix a whole range of brain and spine damage, plus diseases that are not even caused by brain injury, and you focus on the disclaimer that will not be "right away"?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dharmaturtle on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:59PM (#31612931)
You continue to not say anything concrete.

Lots of technologists speak about the potential of technology/industry/science. Roasting Musk for dreaming big is the best you can come up with? Especially given the other material he gives you?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:22AM (#31609549)
The BI story thing is only a slimy tactic if you assume the sexual assault accusation to be true. If Elon knows its false and a tactic to paint him in a specific light, how could he be blamed for getting out in front of the narrative? Should he just let people say reputationally-damaging things about him, without intervening in any way?

I think we've seen recently with the Amber Heard case that it's better to let these things shake out in court first.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ethanbond on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:26AM (#31609623)
Strongly disagree. I'm completely ambivalent as to whether the accusation is true or not – I have literally no idea and probably never will. Elon didn't come out and say, "hey there are accusations coming about an issue that was settled long ago outside of court, I maintain position X."

He said, "I am switching to the Republican party, expect political hit pieces."

He has turned his legal issue into a Republican vs Democrat issue. That's slimy regardless of the veracity of the allegations.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FireBeyond on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:11PM (#31610987)
He didn't even switch.

For years, he's donated to both political parties (as most of the ultra rich do). But for years, for every million dollars he's donated to the GOP, he's only donated just over 100,000 to the Democrats.

The only thing "liberal" about Musk is his attitude to weed (well, for himself, not his employees). Anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-trans, etc., etc.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:29AM (#31609675)
Again, in order to think it's slimy, you have to make assumptions about what is true. In the instance you just described, you still have to assume that the "hit piece" isn't because he was starting to lean more Republican. I don't think we know why the accusation re-surfaced, do we?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by plorkyeran on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:00PM (#31610139)
The claim that he was a Democrat but is now starting to lean more Republican is itself a blatant lie based on his historical political donations.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:07PM (#31610247)
Sometimes people support the candidate that happens to protect their interests more, and the color of their party doesn't really mean a lot.

Am I imagining that Trump and Elon were portrayed in the media as having a good relationship? Wouldn't you consider that leaning more Republican, especially considering Trump's radioactivity?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FireBeyond on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:14PM (#31611018)
Musk is openly anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-worker protection, anti-trans. Not remotely liberal.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by WoahNoun on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:42AM (#31609838)
Most people don't change their political ideology based on sexual assault accusations. Even if they were false, why would that cause someone to join a party with a radically different view of society than their previous party?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by jacquesm on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:00PM (#31610143)
The best explanation that I've seen so far is that he was a Democrat only because it boosted Tesla's sales.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FireBeyond on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:13PM (#31611012)
He's been massively donating more to the GOP than the Democrats since before Trump. About the only thing that espouses a liberal viewpoint is his view on legalization of weed (but don't smoke it if you work for his companies, unless you're him).
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:47AM (#31609918)
>Most people don't change their political ideology based on sexual assault accusations

That's not the ordering of events I'm suggesting. People have commented over time how Elon has been "moving right" for some time now. I'm suggesting it's possible that the accusation re-surfaced in response to how his political alignment shifting overall. Him saying he's "switching parties" is a soundbite for the last 5 years of his politics.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by abnry on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:01PM (#31610147)
The problem is that media organizations _do_ write hit pieces for political/agenda-driven reasons.

A certain side of the political aside has been unhappy about Musk trying to acquire Twitter. We've already seen how the media treats the views of this group of people. A certain supreme court nominee hearing comes to mind. It really, really isn't a stretch to think they'd attempt similar things to Musk.

That is, if the allegation is actually false. If it is true, it is another matter. Musk isn't as pure as the wind-driven snow. But these sorts of things have to be based on evidence. The actual story was second hand information and the fact of a settlement doesn't prove guilt.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by flutas on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:55AM (#31609154)
> I think we can assume pretty slimy tactics from Musk.

I personally think we can assume slimy tactics from everyone involved.

Did Musk do what he was accused of? Knowing his attitude most likely.

Did someone also have very large shorts opened on Tesla right before the story dropped, to expire a day later? Yep.

https://twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/152743945535046860...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lupire on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:06AM (#31609314)
Not everyone, but yes a convicted securities fraudster (Henry Blodget) runs a news site that has now published two sexual harassment stories about two different companies, on two different dates (respectively), that both had unusually large shorts expiring.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by numair on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:24AM (#31609568)
The Elon / TSLA fanboys need to update their conspiracy theory. Blodget doesn’t even own BI, which everyone knows.

I think Elon himself helped to spread this conspiracy, when he would be fully aware it’s complete BS. This demonstrates to me that he is willing to engage in the dangerous game of pushing fake news on his blind followers to get them to go after his enemies, even if it makes no sense. These are the exact sort of people who should not have any power, because they’ll happily abuse it to cause societal harm.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/sep/29/axel-springer-...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by flutas on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:20PM (#31610421)
> Blodget doesn’t even own BI

Nobody I saw claimed he owns BI. He's a cofounder and the current CEO though and therefore does run BI. Just had to call you out on that for spreading a falsehood by trying to twist someone else's words while trying to make a claim about "fake news".

But I also never said it was him either, someone else did. I have no clue who it is and don't even want to get into a guessing game of it. It could be Elon himself for all we know. I was just pointing out that someone knew and opened the short.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by numair on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:27PM (#31610492)
Blodget kept the title but Axel Springer ultimately determines what does or doesn’t happen. If you think Blodget is abusing his position to further a personal vendetta or short-selling agenda, you should contact Axel Springer and blow the whistle!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FireBeyond on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:16PM (#31611054)
Naked short selling is farcical. But short positions are perfectly valid and the "oh the shorts, the shorts!" martyrdom is tired. People are allowed to think your company is overvalued.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by throwawaybobby on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:59AM (#31609213)
That someone could be him, since he knew the story was going to break and tank the stock.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lupire on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:07AM (#31609321)
This has happened at least twice, and the first time didn't involve Elon/Tesla, but did also involve Business Insider.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by huijzer on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:38AM (#31609785)
I'm starting to wonder more and more whether Musk has forgotten to think about the individuals negatively affected by his actions. I wouldn't be surprised if he really cares about humanity and wants to save the world by going to Mars, but I'm not so sure though whether the end justifies the means.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FiberBundle on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:41AM (#31609833)
I don't think he displays any altruistic behaviour if you observe any of his actions.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:23PM (#31610446)
All of his actions seem to be congruent with his vision IMO.

One has to separate feelings about Elon from objective reality. Seems like a difficult thing to do for most comments here.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by 1270018080 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:22PM (#31610441)
I don't think it's possible to be altruistic and be a billionaire. That part of your brain has to be dysfunctional in order to amass infinite money while exploiting everyone around you.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Saturday June 04, 2022 @12:33AM (#31617008)
People voluntarily bought the Tesla cars, shareholders voluntarily bought the shares. That's Elon's wealth. He didn't steal it from anyone else.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by 1270018080 on Saturday June 04, 2022 @10:14PM (#31627274)
He didn't steal, he exploited. Think about how 1 person at a company can be worth $100+ billion, and the other 100k employees are worth less than that combined. Can you imagine that there systemic exploitation there? Every day he lives and consciously decides to hoard that wealth. Just because it happened legally doesn't mean it's not evil/exploitation.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:15AM (#31631719)
He made many millionaires at Tesla. This is absolutely abhorrent mischaracterization of any billionaire, let alone Elon Musk. Wealth is not stolen from anyone, it is created from providing value to millions of people.

No one is exploiting anyone. It is at-will employment. Provides a living wage to thousands of employees to raise their families.

If wealth was stolen, then we'd not have any growth in GDP. 90% people lived in poverty in the 19th century. Capitalism improved lives of millions of people. Every single person is better off today than in 18th century.

You simply cannot become a billionaire without providing value to millions. Exceptions are inheritance and crony capitalists (often in bed with Gov).

Sergey Brin is rightfully a billionaire. He made the world better and so did pretty much any billionaire. I feel like media has been feeding people "Billionaire bad, socialism good" and people have stopped thinking for themselves.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by RC_ITR on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:49AM (#31609939)
There’s a whole bunch of videos out there about “if you really care about humanity having new places to go, focus on Antarctica first since it’s here, has abundant fresh water, an atmosphere, and isn’t particularly colder than mars”

He’s Always been a sci go nerd who backsolves his narrative.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Tehchops on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:59AM (#31609208)
Despite the zealous beliefs of the visionary, thought-leader techbro space that Musk's every move was to drive civilization forward in some kind of libertarian, technocrat utopia, it seems very clear at this point every one of these moves was absolutely a self-serving narrative shield around incredibly typical corporate/rich-person bad behavior.

Oh but who could have seen this coming except oh wait everyone.

The schadenfreude has been hilarious. Twitter has been blessedly devoid of the kind of chest-thumping he typically elicits and it has been glorious.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:12PM (#31610321)
The divide here about Elon is much deeper than I anticipated.

It’s crazy how one sided HN is. Seems entirely subjective and political. If one were to read the comments here, the only conclusion would be that Elon is the force of evil and a reincarnation of satan.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by 1270018080 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:26PM (#31610475)
Is there a grand conspiracy plotting against him to discredit him? Or are his own actions doing the damage?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:15PM (#31611042)
To me it seems like there are 3 things at play.

1) Political incongruency.

2) Character flaws.

3) Actions and actual impact.

These 3 things mix together in a toxic cocktail of hate (or love) depending on which side of the table you’re on. The sides of the table are primarily determined by 1) and the 2) and 3) are glued together to fit the narrative.

I am expecting more from HN tbh.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Tehchops on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:36PM (#31611318)
> I am expecting more from HN tbh.

In a previous comment you(an HN user!) framed all comments or discussion that might portray EM in a negative light as painting him as:

> "...the force of evil and a reincarnation of satan."

A pitch-perfect example of a straw-man argument, and now you're claiming the level of discourse is not up to your standards?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:41PM (#31611400)
It was an intentional hyperbole to thrust a point across if you didn’t read between the lines. I thought it was obvious. I could improve in my message though.

I do expect more from HN than vitriol of this sorts.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Karawebnetwork on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:29PM (#31613876)
It is strange to use charged words such as "crazy", "evil" and "satan" in a comment and then complain of vitriol on the forum.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Saturday June 04, 2022 @12:30AM (#31616996)
I've been around here long enough to realize that when discussions are leaning one way, I become extremely skeptical of the situation. Not going to address your ad-hominem slant, but I hope you can empathize with where my skepticism comes from. This forum tends to usually have a great discussion between opposing viewpoints, except here.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Tehchops on Sunday June 05, 2022 @09:13PM (#31636435)
Where was the ad-hominem slant? More straw-men and an appeal to authority! I'm convinced you're playing logical fallacy bingo at this point.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Tehchops on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:12PM (#31610998)
> the only conclusion would be that Elon is the force of evil and a reincarnation of satan.

Speaking of one sided... I'd argue there are many more nuanced conclusions you could derive.

I'm sure there have been comments towards him that are ad-hominem accusations of "evil", but in general and this thread specifically I think it's his virtue signaling around "free-speech" and "innovation" rightfully being called out for what they are; self-serving and quite vanilla capitalist maneuvering.

Setting up straw-man arguments like you've done is the same kind of defensive, fallacious reasoning his aforementioned zealous followers engage in.

Like Rick & Morty and Jesus, the worst thing about Elon tends to be his fans.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by UmbertoNoEco on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:26AM (#31609612)
This is of course, correct, but it is something not exclusive to Elon Musk, you just have to read the stream of accolades some of the darlings of this site receive here when they are just your run of the mill capitalists with all the usual interests and biases.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ditonal on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:41AM (#31609830)
Yep. You’d think Patrick Collison of Stripe invented the internet based on the praise he receives here rather than the reality that he made a PayPal clone with some custom branding options.

Brian Chesky directly ripped off a popular free product called CouchSurfing then said “ok same thing but I get to be a billionaire, local housing markets lose long term rentals in exchange for teenage keg parties, and I get to buy virtue signaling billboards all over SF cause I get to be rich AND morally superior.”

Then after we lionize those guys we can make fun of the Musk fan club.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by systemvoltage on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:22PM (#31610439)
I feel like you could have said a lot of this with less words. But, exposing Elon seems to be the focus of your comment. Non-sequitur after non-sequitur.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Karawebnetwork on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:42PM (#31611414)
Please rewrite my comment in your own words without losing any information.

English is my second language and I am curious on how you would achieve this.

From my point of view it is as barebone as it can be with 125 words, 7 sentences and 4 paragraphs.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lubesGordi on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:32AM (#31609702)
Shocking how much credibility some random reddit comment can get.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by 99_00 on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:11AM (#31609381)
You show up to work, go to your manager and tell them you have no where to park and nowhere to work. Ask them.what you should do. If they tell you to go home and check back you go home and phone them every day asking if there is space for you and if you can come back to the office.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by that_guy_iain on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:06AM (#31607683)
They can and will buy desks.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kenferry on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:13AM (#31607751)
When people say “no desk” what they mean is “no space in the building to allocate a desk”.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kochindustries on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:18AM (#31607814)
This is Tesla, office workers will soon find themselves working in a tent.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lr on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:31AM (#31607989)
Why not WFT: Work From (a) Tesla? Of course, it would have to be, "at the office," (read, parking lot) otherwise the worker would get fired.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sitkack on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:37AM (#31608082)
And since the Teslas are self driving, they can just roam the public roads while people work, an endless TS (Tesla Stream) cycling between two superchargers.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by johannes1234321 on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:55AM (#31608316)
You mean they can ride through the office building, pass the managers desk, who can check the work.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sitkack on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:00AM (#31608395)
Have a Manager Booth halfway between the two charging stations for checkins, in addition to video calls. Biobreaks (exercise, waste removal, nutrition ingestion) can happen during charging if the Teslas remain unmodified.

I just realized that the Tesla could eject the worker a couple miles before the charging station, calculating the workout and charge duration so that the employee would have to run at the correct rate to retrieve their car before it was done charging. The vehicle could self clean while empty on the way to the charging station.

I can't think of any downsides to this.

Exciting times for the future of work!

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by greesil on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:46AM (#31609027)
We wondered how the open office plan could get worse. Now, we wonder no more!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sitkack on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:00AM (#31609227)
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by lupire on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:13AM (#31609404)
Why isn't the manager station at the charging station?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by somehnacct3757 on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:37PM (#31611335)
I fully expected to see this in SF eventually. Wifi equipped buses set up like coffee shops that drive around SF all day. Cheaper than commercial real estate, at the time. I'm sure COVID has changed the calculus considerably.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by iancmceachern on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:20PM (#31612508)
They do this with billboards. It's somehow cost effective to have a big truck that is nothing but a rolling billboard drive around the city all day. By definition that means that it's cheaper or somehow better than a fixed billboard on real estate.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by daniel-cussen on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:54AM (#31609129)
That actually is a really good idea, they'll figure out problems real quick that way. Very very good idea.

EDIT: If your job in Tesla is on the line proposing working out of a Tesla is your best bet to save it.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by steeleyespan on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:50AM (#31608266)
I remember when we were going to have FSD in 1 year, 10 years ago.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Victerius on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:35AM (#31608046)
Tbh I wouldn't mind "working" out of a tent for a few weeks if the "office" was located in a natural area and the whole affair was more of a company-sponsored camping "workation" where half the day was spent doing outdoor activities.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by duped on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:42AM (#31608133)
What if the tent was in a parking lot in Fremont during fire season
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by frumper on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:07AM (#31608473)
I hear Austin is lovely this time of year.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by katbyte on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:28AM (#31609657)
I’m kitting out my truck with solar and batteries now that starlink has roaming and rv pricing so I can literally drive up mountains and camp by glacier lakes while working.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dlsa on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:41AM (#31608946)
Musk should dig a pit. A pit. An office in a pit. In the the ground. In a pit. Pit office. Office pit. Yes. In a pit.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by glonq on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:59AM (#31610125)
HR: "Remember when we said that working at Tesla was intense? Well it's actually in tents"
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by micromacrofoot on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:31AM (#31607988)
they'll buy big cafeteria-style tables and eliminate individual desks
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dylan604 on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:13AM (#31608546)
The ones that fold up to stack against the walls when the cafeteria needs to be used as the theater? The ones with the built in round, blue plastic seats? If not, you're thinking too nice.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by that_guy_iain on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:16AM (#31607799)
When people say "no space in the building to allocate a desk” they mean "No space to neatly put a desk." Companies have often shown repeatedly they can force desks into rooms when needed.

Anyways, they can and will buy office space to put the desks when needed.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sillysaurusx on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:20AM (#31607842)
Lol. I can confirm that a motivated company can Tetris a lot more desks into a room than you’d expect. My first job… ah, memories.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by raisedbyninjas on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:04AM (#31608441)
LAN parties have been fitting a surprising number of people onto 8' folding tables for decades.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by bbarnett on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:23AM (#31608692)
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by NovemberWhiskey on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:42AM (#31608964)
OTOH LAN parties do not generally persist long enough to need to worry about fire codes etc.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by olyjohn on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:48PM (#31611487)
I don't know how we didn't trip all the breakers. Running a crapload of CRTs, and multiple 500+ watt power supplies on one circuit?! Plus 2 projectors? I wonder how hot that breaker panel got lol.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by turtledove on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:20AM (#31607847)
Putting someone in a hallway might technically meet the requirement of having a desk, but not the spirit of having a desk.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by saalweachter on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:26AM (#31607916)
And while I know everyone is into breaking regulations, both fire codes (for density and exit corridors) and OSHA (for number of employees per toilet) limit the number of desks in an office.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by mc32 on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:36AM (#31608061)
Enter: Open plan offices!

I love how now they are justifiably out of fashion when just a few years ago only staid companies had cubicles or offices!

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by mission_failed on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:45AM (#31608188)
A wild COVID variant has appeared!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kennywinker on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:50AM (#31609078)
Don’t be silly, covid is over. Pay no attention to the 3,250 people hospitalized per day, or the 280 deaths, behind the curtain!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by NoGravitas on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:09AM (#31609350)
Disruption!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Symmetry on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:39AM (#31608100)
And am I the only person who has been in a startup going through a "two people per desk" period when growing rapidly?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by alasdair_ on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:14AM (#31609426)
For a time, the Niantic office in Bellevue was a tiny room with four desks and five people. The manager would sit on a swivel chair in the middle and try to work on a laptop on his knee.

Later we upgraded to a room with twelve people in it where you had to ask at least two other people to stand up and move their chairs out of the way if you needed to get up for any reason.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by UnpossibleJim on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:22AM (#31608671)
Are we considering Tesla a startup now?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by aeyes on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:14AM (#31608563)
Sounds like a luxury still, I got to the "elbows touching" stage. You couldn't put a hand between my screen and the screens of my coworkers. For quiet time I'd go to the kitchen table...

Summer was a challenge because the A/C couldn't keep up at all.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by _jal on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:06AM (#31608463)
Nope.

And the desks were doors on sawhorses.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by wonderwonder on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:46AM (#31609021)
I had to walk uphill both ways to my desk. With my smaller co-workers on my back.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by bbarnett on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:29AM (#31608778)
I wish! Our desks were made out of tinfoil and old ramen boxes.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by hvs on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:04AM (#31609291)
Luxury. We used less senior employees as desks.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by FireBeyond on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:53PM (#31611554)
Tesla, the 15 year old "startup".
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by cainxinth on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:38AM (#31608084)
I once spent a summer internship working at desk and computer they put in the nook next to soda and chip vending machines. Got to say hi to everyone at snack time.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by hdjjhhvvhga on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:48AM (#31608225)
Oh man I'd definitely buy large headphones and a baseball cap with a huuuge bill!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by more_corn on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:41AM (#31608949)
The Fremont factory has like a square mile of unused space. Not defending or apologizing, but they can find the room. That being said it’s not uncommon for Elon to declare shit that’s totally unreasonable and impossible and then leave it to other people to and something work.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by zht on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:28AM (#31607938)
what about occupancy/fire code limits?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by cduzz on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:10AM (#31608523)
Fire codes and occupancy limits are set by how many people can evacuate the building in a set amount of time. I worked at a place in an antique building and they had to limit how many classrooms were allowed in the building because they had to stay under these limits. Also, yearly, there were fire drills where they'd verify they could get everyone out.

So in tesla's case, they'd just fire all the people who leave their desks in a fire?

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dymk on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:34AM (#31608036)
Elon will plead to the fire marshal to arrest only him, and force his workers to come in anyways
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dylan604 on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:11AM (#31608529)
As if Musk would fall on his own sword let alone anyone else's. To much wasted time to be able to poke fun of Bezos or make some other bone headed tweet.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by dymk on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:52PM (#31613470)
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by photochemsyn on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:59AM (#31608381)
Parking space? Ride your bike or take public transport, individual cars are not the best option. Electric buses and trains and bikes (for moving people) and electric trucks (for moving goods) are really where the future is going to be.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by yashap on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:45AM (#31609007)
Tesla’s HQ is on the outskirts of Palo Alto, pre-pandemic most employees commuted in from San Francisco or San Jose. It’s a 3-4 hr bike ride each way from SF, or a 1.5-2 hr bike ride each way from SJ. Not exactly practical. Public transit isn’t great in the area either.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by 8ytecoder on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:15AM (#31609438)
Not to mention Palo Alto is extremely anti-density and housing. No choice but to live in San Jose or SF and commute.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by bigbillheck on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:58AM (#31610117)
You can take bikes on Caltrain, the Palo Alto stop appears to be 4-5 miles away from the station.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by tnel77 on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:08AM (#31608486)
That’s neat, but the USA has garbage public transport. Many towns just have none. I think it’s unreasonable to expect people to use a resource that just isn’t there in most cases.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by halJordan on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:14AM (#31608585)
Yeah Fremont California, Austin Texas. Terribly famous for being cities of hundreds of thousands and having no public transport. It'd actually be funny if you were joking.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by jeffbee on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:17PM (#31610390)
The Tesla factory has a BART station and a mainline rail station, so that's good. But the Tesla office is way out in the middle of nowhere.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3500+Deer+Creek+Rd,+Palo+A...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by danans on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:12PM (#31610312)
The Bay Area's public transit is only good compared to places with no public transit. It's far from comprehensive and the intermodal coordination is pretty non-existent. It's only good if your start and destination are on the same mode of transit.

I don't know about Austin, but with Fremont's public transit, it would take at least 40 minutes to get from the Fremont BART station to the Tesla factory on public transit. That doesn't count the time needed on BART from someplace with a lower COL (Fremont itself is a $$ place to live). For that, add at least another 1/2 hour (for nearest lower COL in Castro Valley or San Leandro). So, it wouldn't be unheard of to have an hour+ commute to Tesla Fremont on public transit.

Large and wealthy Bay Area employers like Tesla therefore run private shuttles for employees for this reason (a practice started in the current era by Genentech way back in the early 00s I think, and later Google popularized it among tech co's)

Maybe Austin has world class public transit, though I kind of doubt it.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by jeffbee on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:19PM (#31610407)
Why would anyone use Fremont BART when Warm Springs BART almost abuts the Tesla factory?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by danans on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:39PM (#31610616)
Fair, but it's still 27 minutes from there to the factory on public transit, so not quite "abuts". I know you can take the company shuttle, but the point is that the public transit system isn't very practical end to end.

I actually would give Tesla a bit of a pass on this since it is a factory purchased from GM/Toyota and it inherently needs lots of space, so you can't expect a train station at the factory gate.

Tech campuses like the Googleplex, the Apple spaceship donut, Oracle HQ on the edge of a marsh are where the failings of the public transit system are most apparent.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by jeffbee on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:10PM (#31613050)
There's a footbridge from the BART station to the Tesla site. I don't know why someone would waste their time trying to take public transit from the station to Tesla. It's 1-2km depending on which side of their gigantic facility a person needs to reach.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by photochemsyn on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:14AM (#31608569)
The fact that the USA hasn't invested in the necessary infrastructure doesn't change the conclusion that efficient public transport systems (see Europe, see China) have huge benefits relative to a system that relies almost entirely on individual vehicles.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ethanbond on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:21AM (#31608664)
No, it doesn't change any of that, but it does make your suggestion pretty much completely useless in this particular instance. I agree it's totally wrong and self-defeating, but it is also the reality.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kory on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:36AM (#31608881)
I live near a rapid bus line in Seattle. One stop is a block away from my house, and the other stop is 2 blocks from the office.

The traffic to the office is always awful, so a pleasant ride to the office, skipping traffic via dedicated bus lanes on the route, without needing to drive, sounds great to me in principle. I WANT to like this. I WANT to use this. But, there are several problems with it in practice.

For me, the bus is still significantly slower than driving because of all of the stops, even though it skips car traffic. For my wife, who needs to walk 10 blocks from the bus stop to her office, it's even slower.

My wife and I both get motion sick, especially if I don't get a forward facing seat.

Other people riding the bus smoke drugs, don't clean themselves & smell awful, scream loudly & incoherently, etc.

On the 10 block walk from the stop to her office, my wife saw homeless folks fighting, some screaming, and other smoking fentanyl. As a small woman, she did not feel safe, and informed me she wouldn't be taking the bus again. With our car, she can drive directly to the secured parking garage in her office, no safety risk.

We're going to stick to the safety, security, and speed of the car, thanks. It's not the lack of infrastructure, public transit is just a much worse experience.

None of this will get better, our transit agency doesn't even have the guts to reduce fare evasion via real enforcement because of the wacky political climate here.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/sound-transit-fare-...

Find a way to make public transit clean & safe and we'd probably ignore the other negatives listed above. Unfortunately, the political climate in the US in areas with adequate public transit makes that impossible.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by blackguardx on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:29AM (#31609668)
Is fare evasion related to bus safety?

On a different note, I rode Sound Transit buses to Redmond every day pre-pandemic and it was a pretty good experience. The seats were really nice and some even reclined! I think it is a bit slower than driving but I would rather sit on a bus for an extra 10 minutes reading a book than be driving in soul crushing traffic.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kory on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:39AM (#31609794)
It's not really the fare evasion itself that is the problem (though it does allow people to use transit as a homeless shelter).

Fare evasion is a symptom; the real issue is it being politically unviable to have a police force actively riding buses and light rail.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by InfoSecErik on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:14PM (#31610349)
The rapid bus lines had that reputation back when I lived there (particularly the one going down 3rd) and I rarely used it for that reason. My time on other bus lines plus the light rail were a lot more pleasant.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by olyjohn on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:57PM (#31611606)
Oh you think it was bad then... You should see 3rd ave now.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by wutbrodo on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:21AM (#31608667)
You're having a conversation with a person you're imagining.

Nobody is disagreeing that systems built around transit/biking/etc are better than car-oriented ones. They're saying that an individual in the latter system may still need to drive. In case you've forgotten, your original comment was in response to a specific individual, suggesting that he didn't need to drive.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by photochemsyn on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:37AM (#31608898)
Google "man walks to work" for heartwarming tales about the kindness of strangers in dystopian Third World America. White-collar workers now get to experience the blue-collar reality that neoliberalism created. Fun times for all, and remember, shared suffering builds community consciousness. Let's all eat cake together!
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by wutbrodo on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:53AM (#31609124)
Got it, you're just completely detached from reality and don't actually understand anything people are saying to you on the thread. Take care
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by wonderwonder on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:50AM (#31609074)
Sure... Or they could just drive their cars.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kube-system on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:06AM (#31609305)
We’ve built so much sprawl that it’s difficult to make an efficient transport system that makes the types of trips that people now want to make.

Everyone chooses where to put homes and workplaces with transportation in mind.

In the UK people who commute by rail commute an average of 235 miles per year. [0]

I’ve had commutes of 150 miles per day. (Or 30,000+ miles per year) although that’s on the high end of what Americans might do.

The typical commute for people in my last office job was 30-50 miles per day. About 10,000 miles per year. About 1-2% of the people in our office lived in the same town as the office. This is in a top-50 metropolitan area of the US.

[0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/466097/average-distance-...

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:24PM (#31611161)
> We’ve built so much sprawl that it’s difficult to make an efficient transport system that makes the types of trips that people now want to make.

Yeah, the American desire to have a large grassy lawn surrounding their house means density is far too low to make public transit viable.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by quantumwannabe on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:49AM (#31609947)
If they commute 235 miles per year then they don’t need a train at all because that is a commute of around half a mile each way per day which is easily walkable. That number is so ridiculously low I suspect the source is wrong.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kube-system on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:43PM (#31610646)
Maybe so. A government source says:

> Even though average miles travelled for commuting purposes has declined to 799 miles travelled per person in 2020, a decrease of 37% compared to 2019 (1,276 miles travelled per person) and an overall decrease of 43% compared to 2002 (1,400 miles travelled per person)

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-sur...

So, still close to an order of magnitude less than my anecdotal data. The bottom line is that the US definitely has a lot of sprawl.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by bnt on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:24AM (#31608709)
Do you have any idea of the SIZE of some States and distances between HOMES, not just towns? Public transport is not feasible in some places, as are not bikes. Am I supposed to bike 30 miles for a gallon of milk? How do I bring it back?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by arinlen on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:33AM (#31609715)
> Do you have any idea of the SIZE of some States and distances between HOMES, not just towns?

Is that even a serious argument?

Public transportation networks are designed to serve urban areas, with specific solutions catered to specific combinations of travel distance and throughput.

Hand-waiving by pointing out isolated individuals live in isolated areas means nothing. Mass transportation is designed to serve the masses, not hermits who chose to live far from urban centers.

Meanwhile, all those person's filling in those two-digit-lane highways live somewhere, and if they can pack a highway they certainly can be served by a suburban railway service.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kube-system on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:08PM (#31610256)
It's not just hermits that live far from urban centers in the US. The US is famous for sprawling contiguous suburbs.

Subway systems work well when people commute from the edges of a city to an urban center. Throw US suburbs into the mix, and you get some strange complications, like:

* suburbs that from adjacent cities that sprawl together -- the residents there may commute to different cities

* suburban office parks -- this makes it difficult to effectively meet people's needs with an affordable hub-and-spoke model, because large numbers of people commute not to the urban center, but between adjacent suburbs

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by arinlen on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:11PM (#31611752)
> It's not just hermits that live far from urban centers in the US. The US is famous for sprawling contiguous suburbs.

Sprawling suburbs can be, and often are, served by public transportation. The critical factor affecting the US approach to public transportation, which is purely ideological, is the neoliberal belief that public transportation services are only worth considering if they are provided by private corporations and only if they are profitable right from the start.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the world these services are either public or public-private partnerships, and subsidized with clear externalities in mind. For example, if I recall correctly the Tokyo subway network is operated by a few private companies which profit not by the direct exploration of their railway lines but from real estate investments coordinated by the expansion of their railway lines.

Consequently, we have european capitals which coordinate urban planning (i.e., where suburban sprawls can and cannot be built) with coverage of their public transportation services, including investing in extensions of subway lines to deserted places where medium- and high-density housing projects have been approved.

> Subway systems work well when people from the edges of a city to an urban center.

Subway is not a good example in discussions over public transportation in urban sprawls. The main purpose of subway networks is to enhance mobility within a urban area. Consequently, typically you see subway networks with subway stops at 500-800 meters and travel speeds of around 50km/h, which just happens to be slightly better than traveling by car. Park-and-ride stops are only another aspect of the main goal of eliminating car traffic within the city.

The standard strategy to serve urban sprawls with public transportation is to cover them with bus routes which feed into a high-throughput mass transport systems such as commuter rail or bus rapid transit, also serving as park-and-ride stations.

> suburban office parks -- this makes it difficult to effectively meet people's needs with an affordable hub-and-spoke model, because large numbers of people commute not to the urban center, but between adjacent suburbs

This is not true. I happen to have worked for a company located in a suburban office park which wasn't served very well by public transportation, but the office park itself organized bus services from one of the city's multimodal hub to the office park.

Also, this is so common and mundane that I know for a fact that even some Ikea stores in europe located in industrial districts offer free bus services connecting public transport hubs to them.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by kube-system on Friday June 03, 2022 @03:54PM (#31612885)
I'm not really saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that, comparatively, this puts the US at a huge disadvantage. It requires a larger investment per rider, and when you're done, you still have a metro area that was specifically designed to be convenient for drivers that your transport system must compete with.

I worked a job for several years where I could have taken either bus or light rail to work. I still chose to drive because I already had a car, my car had more privacy, I didn’t have to go outside in the weather, and I had more autonomy.

For public transit to compete, it has to be someone’s best option. Being usable is not good enough to cause people to switch.

Yes, you could build it all anyway, and that’s probably the only long-term solution. But it’s not politically popular. If not for budgetary reasons, then because people don’t want construction interfering with their drive.

In the end, I feel like we’re better off just concentrating on public transit in the neighborhoods that want to use it.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by the_only_law on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:15PM (#31611803)
> Sprawling suburbs can be, and often are, served by public transportation.

Very ineffective though, very limited hours, akward stops where you have to walking stretches with the sun beating down on you and the annoying unsettling noise of cars rushing past you on a main road, worst case the particular place they’re at doesn’t have sidewalk for a good stretch and they have to hug the grass line to stay out of the road and out of peoples yards.

I’ve lived in several small cities/large towns with primarily suburban areas, as well as highly sprawled MSAs and this describes any suburban bus system I’ve seen.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by TulliusCicero on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:26AM (#31609622)
Bikes are not feasible because of intentional urban design decisions, not because of inherent values of American geography.

Needing to travel 30 miles for a grocery store applies to only a tiny, tiny minority of Americans here.

edit: some data to back up my point: https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2019/june/us-shoppers-a...

> When the ERS researchers looked at rural food store access, they found that the median distance to the nearest and the third-nearest food store was 3.1 miles and 6.1 miles, respectively.

6 miles is pretty far to go by bike each way, no doubt, though 3 miles isn't too bad, especially if you use an ebike, and those are steadily becoming more affordable. That would be in the range of 10-15 minutes each way.

That said, the bigger problem right now is having decent bike infrastructure to actually get there, rather than the distance.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by ericmay on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:02AM (#31609270)
> Am I supposed to bike 30 miles for a gallon of milk? How do I bring it back?

Live closer? How do people in Germany get a gallon of milk? Or Japan?

How is it that every country in the world is able to do this except us?

Ultimately physics will win here and we're going to run out of cheap gasoline and fossil fuels and you're going to wish you could walk a couple blocks to a neighborhood grocery store. Milk is going to be $7/gallon and gas is going to be $7/gallon and you're going to effectively pay $15 or more to drive to the store 30 miles away and buy that gallon of milk. The whole reason you're were previously able to live 30 miles away from a place to buy milk is because we've had cheap, subsidized fossil fuels. This is going away. There's no amount of oil we can drill for that will change this reality over the long term. No political party can "fix" this. Republicans can't open enough pipelines. It doesn't matter anyway. If you choose to live 30 miles away from the nearest house or grocery store, you also will incur the associated costs of doing that. Townships and other entities aren't going to be able to afford to repair roads. They don't have the money unless they raise taxes by a lot. Better get ready for that too.

Public transit isn't feasible in many places, nor are bikes. Why is that? It's because we've decided to make sure that this is the case and we've spread out towns and cities, and used zoning to make sure that there are no stores within walking distance of the suburbs just so we can keep wasting money building new roads and buying new cars. It's a hidden tax going straight to shareholders of construction companies, automobile manufacturers, and government officials who green light all highway and road projects with your tax money even when we could just change a few things and reap huge savings. It's mind-blowing every time I see these comments. "How am I supposed to do this? See it doesn't work? Well yea because you've decided to make it not work and then tried it and you're like "oh the thing I made not work doesn't work! See??".

Nobody is interested in "taking your car" and nobody is interested in forcing you to live in a place that looks like Hong Kong. What many people are interested in though is building in sensible ways that include cheaper and more effective transit options, like walking, biking, light rail, and possibly busses. 90% of your day-to-day needs should be within a distance that you don't need a car for. Everything else is incorrect and just won't work in the long-term for most people.

Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by sixothree on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:29AM (#31608770)
Public transport changes that.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by gotstad on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:23AM (#31608698)
Yes, that would be a nice future. But how do I get to the office, now?
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by emptyfile on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:25AM (#31608738)
LOL he literally works for a company that makes expensive electric cars and markets that as the future.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by Broken_Hippo on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:02AM (#31609255)
I've lived very few places with public transport, and often what was in place was poor. Winter exists and biking infrastructure simply doesn't exist in ways meaningful enough to ride a bike, if you are lucky enough to live close enough to do that.
Re:Tesla to Cut 10% of Jobs by PLenz on Friday June 03, 2022 @10:14AM (#31608586)
Musk hates public transit