You just described a country club, right down to the innate classism and exclusivity rules.
Similarly historically it wasn’t just elitist hangouts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_men's_club
No women to blame there. What is the cause of the male loneliness epidemic then?
I say this as a former dude who has spent the vast, vast, vast majority of my life as a man, socializing with men and not-men, in public. I have never had a single issue.
I have seen this ever since the moment me and my friends hit puberty in high school, to this very day. When a group of men is hanging out they are more relaxed. The moment a woman is in the space the vibe changes
I cannot be the only person who has noticed this
A lot of people baulk at this sort of arrangement/tolerance - but I bet it's quite common.
Like I've had so many discussions (in mixed company and male!) and like, I've talked about wanting to bang women, I've flirted with female friends to their faces in groups, the key is I'm not a fucking creep about it so either they express interest or they express disinterest and I don't take the latter as a personal affront, I'm just like, yeah that's cool, no worries, anyway... and we carry on. I've compared notes on what I like in women with lesbians. I've gotten tips on sex from women for the women I do date. I've joked and laughed with other women about how bad some guys are at sex. These conversations exist, you just need to not be a fucking weirdo and not be strutting around trying to bang everything in sight, and when rejected, completely lose interest and bail if you want to have them.
Its frustrating and tiring experience for all men, thus the need to vent out somewhere else where these dynamics dont play out semi constantly.
I am pretty sure women see it similarly in reverse although details in dynamics are very different.
5 dudes chilling is a different dynamic than 3 guys 2 girls. People who keep insisting it's about some weird need for men to be offensive don't seem to have ever observed basic gender dynamics.(not saying you are, other responders)
I haven't observed this sort of thing happening in decades.
That being said it just comes more subtle as people get older or alternatively remove themselves from the dating pool.
This whole sub thread is devoling into some weird incel like comment section though.
As for bjj, the scenario of the instructor dating a female student and breaking up the gym in the ensuing fallout is a well-deserved trope by now. There are women at my gym and you can make it work if everyone’s bending over backwards to be professional, but it’s obviously Different.
I trained at a gym where that scenario happened, people were already leaving because the teacher was an ass in general, played favorites with the male students and created at cliquey environment.
There really isn't anything women can't handle in front of men. Thinking you have some dark thing that cant be said in front of women or that you need to change how you behave is odd and exclusive to you.
Whether or not this proposal is a good idea is not even the point: the point is that it was considered plausible, and hence that not even coastal progressives actually think it desirable to treat men and women equally.
I'm not making any claims about what anyone can or can't handle. I'm simply observing that just about every mixed group ends up adopting female norms of communication. I'm not even saying that's necessarily a bad thing for a mixed group, I think it's to some extent natural and healthy in social settings. In fact taboos that proscribe the ways men may speak in the presence of women are also quite common cross-culturally. But the fact that there is a difference remains.
Like I'm being a bit of a contrarian dick here but at the same time, men are putting these strange rules and requirements on their own selves. If you lose the ability to be a normal person whenever, and I can't stress this enough, one in two living humans is present: I don't think that's a society issue. I think that's a you issue.
That depends on what "normal" is, and I don't think you or I get to define it.
I mostly hang out in mixed-gender groups, but I absolutely have seen the difference in vibe others in this thread have noted, when I'm hanging out with a group of just other men. Especially when compared to a mixed group that has both single men and single women.
> men are putting these strange rules and requirements on their own selves
I wouldn't call it a "rule" so much as a "phenomenon". It just seems to kinda happen. Not always, and not in every mixed-gender group, but it does happen. I don't think anyone is making up or following any kind of "rules", and I can't control group dynamics or behavior on my own.
> I don't think that's a society issue. I think that's a you issue.
I think this discussion would be more productive without thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks.
It's not ad hominem because you feel attacked. Ad hominem would be calling you a dickhead and then not engaging at all with the topic of the discussion, and I didn't do that. My point is that any man's inability to socialize with men in the presence of women in such a way that isn't offensive to them is... weird? Very weird. And is probably a solid contributing factor to the loneliness epidemic which the thread is about.
> That depends on what "normal" is, and I don't think you or I get to define it.
It's wild that people keep going to this line of argument despite the fact that the purpose of these "men's only" socialization spaces is ostensibly so men can be "normal" with one another, which no one has yet defined either, but props to you, you've at least tried.
> I mostly hang out in mixed-gender groups, but I absolutely have seen the difference in vibe others in this thread have noted, when I'm hanging out with a group of just other men. Especially when compared to a mixed group that has both single men and single women.
And it seems to be what you're pointing at is what I would call peacocking. Men see pretty women they want to date (or just bang) and they turn into ogres, trying to one up and bully one another to demonstrate social status. The problem is the vast majority of women think this is stupid as fuck, and men who are not seeking such relations at that time for whichever reason you might put it down for also find it cringe and annoying. Because it is.
And I suspect that same reason is why most men are dancing around discussing it in any great detail, because I too have witnessed it, but if I came into this thread saying "yeah a lot of men become insufferable morons in the presence of pretty girls and it's cringe as shit," I've gotten even more down-votes than I already have. And, more to the point, I don't think the solution to that is men's only spaces. I think the solution to that is men need to stop having it signaled to them that behaving in this way is acceptable. We are not animals in nature, we are social, intelligent beings capable of empathy.
Who are you to speak for “the vast majority of women”?
This is the only thing you've said that I agree with
> If you lose the ability to be a normal person
What is normal for a group of men is different than what is normal for the same group of men when a woman is present
It's not rocket science here.
And why gender, but not race?
* Single men don't feel compelled to be horndogs and show off and compete.
* Married men are tired of always doing everything with their wives.
* Possible gay interest?
* Something about model trains, apparently women ruin model trains?
This is impossible in spaces where women are also present.
This says a lot about that person, that they can't imagine men socializing any other way. I think they're making excuses for their own bad behavior.
However, and this may shock you, I also love hanging out in non mixed groups. And they are not the same.
A mixed group works different socially than a male only group.
That's not because the men are socially incompetent. It's because it's a fundamentally different social situation. Even when everyone is an elite socializer.
I'm afraid you may be the one who needs to learn more about socializing.
A bit heteronormative, don't you think?
Personally it's not for me, I'm a heterosexual male but I get on far better with women and find men's spaces intimidating.
And on top of that, I've heard some gay men complain about straight women in their spaces. That's just another example of this phenomenon.
The US marine corps noticed this and it was a huge point of contention (kind of still is).
> offensive to others
Sound like you have issues. It's a club. They meet up to play board games. Maybe you could start a club of people who are offended by everything.
They can, and thats not the point of having men’s groups and men’s spacing. This only reveals your assumptions and biases.
If one has never spent any time in all male spaces or has and thinks that men are defective women, like the average male therapist or counsellor this may not be obvious.
In the US by the 8th grade, 48 percent of girls receive a mix of A and B grades compared to 31 percent of boys. More tellingly, Boys account for 71 percent of all school suspensions. The gap remains through high school and in college, with females representing nearly 60 percent of all college graduates.
“If you treat girls as the gold standards and boys as defective girls, that’s going to be demoralizing,” Thompson says. “What do elementary and junior high girls always say about boys their age? ‘You are so immature.’ If that’s the norm, then this system is just rigged against the boys.”
There's a wonderful bit in a 2013 Time article which illustrates that this predominant viewpoint is often indelibly coded on the (majority female) teaching staff, to the grave detriment of the male students:
https://ideas.time.com/2013/10/28/what-schools-can-do-to-hel...
//Peg Tyre’s The Trouble With Boys illustrates the point. She tells the story of a third-grader in Southern California named Justin who loved Star Wars, pirates, wars and weapons. An alarmed teacher summoned his parents to school to discuss a picture the 8-year-old had drawn of a sword fight — which included several decapitated heads. The teacher expressed “concern” about Justin’s “values.” The father, astonished by the teacher’s repugnance for a typical boy drawing, wondered if his son could ever win the approval of someone who had so little sympathy for the child’s imagination. ... If boys are constantly subject to disapproval for their interests and enthusiasms, they are likely to become disengaged and lag further behind//
I don't know that "girls" remains the gold standard so much as girls are more able to conform to broader behavioral expectations. This is not to say teenage girls are immune from hormonal-driven behavior issues, but it manifests in different ways. I have a 13-yo daughter and let me tell you it's no walk in the park. But it's absolutely not a surprise to me that boys account for the majority of problematic behavior.
If societal expectations are things like: kindness, respect, agreeableness, calmness, paying attention, not talking back, not fighting, and so on... and girls tend to conform to these while boys tend not to, that doesn't necessarily indicate a conspiracy against boys.
Plenty of full explanations in this thread.
There needs to be some place men can just spend time with other men. Yes, it’s a problem if those men only places become important to business or politics such that it disadvantages women, but there’s got to be something else instead, then.
Women should also have places where they can be together without men.
And there should be a majority of places where men and women can spend time equally.
This is literally anytime, anywhere though. Do just not meet up with their friends? You can go to dinner, get drinks, go hiking, play sports, bike, ski, sunbathe, play videogames and many more things in single-sex groups without raising an eyebrow. The real classic for men of a certain persuasion from a western cultural POV is golf right?
I think there's some strange cultural hangup I'm missing where the entire place needs to be single-sex.
What friends?
What you described is unrelated. Yes, people can and do go out and do stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen%27s_clubs_in...
Male-only country clubs also exist although are slightly more controversial and less common, such as Burning Tree, Garden City, Butler National, Augusta National (until the last ~10 years), Pine Valley (until the last few years).
The unfortunate reality for most of us is that these places are among the most desirable and hardest clubs to be accepted to in the world - and we probably wouldn't get in.
They're expensive to run, so they often target a wealthier demographic who can pay.
Em. Nearly all clubs on that page that I checked are open to women or no longer exist.
Several appear to be women-only social clubs, placed on the page by mistake.
They can run into trouble when they allow the public to use their facilities, or grant membership so freely that they start to seem like they aren't really private.
For an example of gender discrimination at private golf clubs:
https://www.golflink.com/lifestyle/no-women-past-rock-chicag... lists Old Elm, Bob O'Link, Butler National, and Black Sheep Golf Club as four Chicago area male-only golf clubs.
> Perhaps no club makes its restriction more apparent than Black Sheep. At the end of the club’s lengthy driveway sits a large rock and the internal slogan amongst members is, “No Women Past the Rock.”
https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2013806-black-sheep-golf-cl... has a comment from last year verifying that gender restriction. I have not verified the others.
Like a bar, but you know that if they're there, they know a few people and aren't crazy.
when i first moved back to the city from overseas, noisebridge was an awesome third place to hang out and hack on stuff while meeting regulars.
I mean, I am a decent person, but somehow I ended up with a key that worked for the the building and the 2nd floor of the old Mission location of Noisebridge by my second or third visit, despite never having been a member or paying dues etc. I got it from someone else who had also gotten it from someone else if I remember correctly. Only members were supposed to have keys, I think? I wasn't shy about the fact I wasn't one, but I didn't flash the key around either. Hopefully they have tightened up on that if it's a recurring issue.
Stuff like getting the key was just part of the scene in SF that you could randomly encounter, like the time I was working security for the American Psychiatric Association trade show at the Moscone Center and the Church of Scientology protested against the conference right outside, then a flash mob counter-protest of anons in Guy Fawkes masks appeared. SF is just weird like that for some people I guess. Maybe it's just me?
It was a huge issue. Noisebridge has had to do a "reboot" three times now, 2014, 2017, and 2024. The whole place was closed for some time, everything was cleaned out, and members were re-authorized.
High school kids go there to work on class projects together, just like I did at the library when I was a teenager.
Not only is a great show that touches on relationships and loneliness and modern alienation with a touch of magical realism and esoterica and alchemy but it focuses on a fraternal (in name only, women are members) order that your grandfather might have been a member of but have disappeared due to rising individualism, rising rents and displacement.
But there's no reason we couldn't start building them again. Not high end exclusive clubs like Soho House but just a place with books and a reasonable membership fee and a bar with cheap drinks for added revenue and occasional "open to the public" events.
There could be ones for software devs, ones focused on philosophy or great literature, ones for musicians or artists.
I've run the back-of-a-napkin numbers and even in expensive cities it doesn't seem impossible if your goal is to just break even and foster a community.
Where? I searched and didn't see any where free.
Worth the $6.99 for AMC though.
Sadly I discovered first hand why membership is declining (this lodge was a magnet for socially inept conspiracy theorists).
I live in a big city where every member ends up knowing other member (male or female) even if your own Lodge is restricted to one sex. It's a lot of fun and I do believe it could be beneficial for a lot of incels.
Only way I can see it working is if the government pays for social spaces. An extension of the library system but more focused on events and socialising rather than being a quiet space for reading.
The government effectively does financially support social clubs by exempting them from taxes: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/...
Actively providing money to clubs would be a tough sell. Grant writing is hard, grant reviewing and auditing is expensive, and there could be a PR nightmare if the government provided money to an "immoral" club or didn't provide money to certain classes of clubs.
Also, do check out the interactive map at the Huell Howser Archive, if you haven’t seen it [^0].
They're really exclusive and they always have been. You and I would not get in, not now and not in the Victorian days. Even 'new money' is usually not ok. You really have to have gone to the right school and have the right family.
The latest incarnation was "Men in Sheds" which eventually got the traditional treatment - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o
Golf, generally, is pretty expensive. It's like minimum $50 for an outing, you need equipment, correct clothes, etc. Some places require membership, often priced intentionally exclusively. It's pretty natural for something exclusionary to get a negative cultural bias.
Oh, and it is a terrible resource hog. You can't fit many people on a golf course at any given time without disrupting gameplay, and all that grass requires a lot of water and maintenance.
> any reason to spend a couple hours outside with my friends sounds amazing
This is, of course, available in many forms that don't involve hitting balls with sticks, but also there are many varieties of ball+stick that satisfy this.
Golfing is an artificial competitive activity that exists in an artificial and manicured version of nature. There is nothing wrong with it if you like the activity, but you can just go for a hike or stroll in a park if you want to be with friends outside.
But I bet a social club that rigorously enforced the rules of Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood would be more popular than anything goes.
Nazis can fuck right off!
We also threw open to the public art shows and parties with drink sponsorships and everything.
What's better than a church environment? A "city gates" environment.
I am not part of the church any longer, a properly run co-working space, not one that tried to emulate soul less corporate America, gives space for the wealthy tech bro and the poor artist to have multi round interaction that both build trust and provide implicit (and sometimes explicit) accountability. Most of us operate in environments where, outside of family and work there is nothing of value to lose, and churches and other places that exhibit ideological ratchet effects aren't great.
The city gates, that's really the best place to be, we far outpunched our startup weight in the city we were in because we built trust more than anything.
I come from a missionary family that has probably planted more churches by number than any other group, one family far outstripping many mission agencies. That experience and family knowledge was absolutely critical to making what we did work.
But in the U.S. I don't think anyone is interested in funding a 3rd places startup, it's sad that the same people who will talk about the power of 100 true fans don't get the power of 100 people in true community and the way that opens up thousands of paths for people to try things they otherwise wouldn't be able to.
Sports clubs are full of friends you can make. I'm close with alot of guys that I train with.
Try tennis, or lifting, or running, or golf. Do NOT go to DnD meetups and other low effort stuff. Exertion is what forms bonds.
Schultz envisioned Starbucks as a “third place” between home and work, fostering community and connection.
https://mulcahyconsultants.com/2023/12/14/howard-schultz-and...
https://apnews.com/article/starbucks-racism-philadelphia-man...
At least you can/could play cards, converse with your fellows or some randoms.
CAMRA's definition includes "Is open to the public without membership or residency" and a bunch more that amount to "does not necessarily serve food" to distinguish from restaurants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen%27s_clubs_in...
NYC and London are both having a bit of a renaissance of new clubs being founded, although most of them are coed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kkryT4nOwA - Michigan Automotive Relic Society
Me and my brother would go there after school to play some board games or dungeons and dragons during the weekends.
- Freemasons
- Odd Fellows
- Fraternal Order of Eagles
- Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks
- Loyal Order of Moose