Agreed, and the point I'm overall driving at is is that perceived need, desire, whatever you'd call it is a core structural reason for the male loneliness epidemic.

Like I've had so many discussions (in mixed company and male!) and like, I've talked about wanting to bang women, I've flirted with female friends to their faces in groups, the key is I'm not a fucking creep about it so either they express interest or they express disinterest and I don't take the latter as a personal affront, I'm just like, yeah that's cool, no worries, anyway... and we carry on. I've compared notes on what I like in women with lesbians. I've gotten tips on sex from women for the women I do date. I've joked and laughed with other women about how bad some guys are at sex. These conversations exist, you just need to not be a fucking weirdo and not be strutting around trying to bang everything in sight, and when rejected, completely lose interest and bail if you want to have them.

You couldnt be more wrong in your guessing. The answer lies in games all women play with both men and women constantly, never being truly honest with words, expecting men to pick up meaning between lines, predict their emotions and so on and on. We have enough shit in our lives already, no need to add more.

Its frustrating and tiring experience for all men, thus the need to vent out somewhere else where these dynamics dont play out semi constantly.

I am pretty sure women see it similarly in reverse although details in dynamics are very different.

As a man I don't recognize that game playing as something all women do. It's just not something I've experienced in my relationships platonic or otherwise with women. Maybe it's a Europe vs. America thing (edit: from your other comments, you seem to be in Europe so not that) or something personal to you and your experience but it sounds very 'incel-adjacent'.

Yep, there's always a strong element of "what opinions, motherfucker" goose comic in these discussions. And we always end up at "tell me you're an incel without telling me you're an incel"