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Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by rmason on Saturday February 08, 2025 @04:22PM (#42986316)
I used to live in a small town in Michigan which had city provided power using a dam. It was inexpensive and highly reliable. But every couple of years the big power company in the state would try and get the city to sell them the utility.

After I moved a city council for whatever reason ended up selling. As a result the cost of electricity immediately doubled and power outages occurred regularly due to reduced maintenance. I don't know what they spent the money on that they received but it was a very poor decision that I have to believe they regret.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by pclmulqdq on Saturday February 08, 2025 @07:44PM (#42987501)
It sounds like your city was overprovisioned in terms of how much electricity they could supply, and you had the benefit of the cheapest power around (hydroelectric power is very cheap), so when you got plugged into the wider network that the power company was servicing, you got screwed. There's a good chance that power for neighboring towns got cheaper and/or more reliable after the deal given what happened with your power.

The town must have either been in huge financial trouble or on a privatization kick.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by sidewndr46 on Saturday February 08, 2025 @07:52PM (#42987537)
its extremely unlikely that a town in Michigan was not connected to the Eastern grid
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by pclmulqdq on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:32PM (#42992051)
Whether they were connected and whether they were selling the power are two different questions.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by s1mplicissimus on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:20AM (#42988666)
Your conclusion is a false dichotomy. A third option is that shareholders of the private company fattened up their profit margins.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by maxerickson on Sunday February 09, 2025 @09:30AM (#42990901)
One potential reason I can come up with is the dam aging and becoming a liability.

The town may also have been putting other revenues towards the electric utility (so losing money on the service and billing).

It was probably just a mistake though.

My town charges about $0.11 per kwh, with a fixed monthly service fee making the effective rate for a small user closer to $0.20.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by TheCraiggers on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:36PM (#42992073)
I think you're spot on. Damn failures are on the rise, and usually it's due to the simple fact that maintenance is expensive and everything has a shelf life. A lot of these dams were built during the same time period and the cost to replace / maintain the aging infrastructure is tough for small communities to swallow. And they're all coming due at roughly the same time.

Selling to a larger company who hopefully has the capital to fix them seems like a bargain when compared to the cost of replacing a hydro dam (or even replacing it with a non-electric generating dam).

Of course, that does come at a cost, and it's probably spread across all rate payers.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by tmnvix on Saturday February 08, 2025 @05:03PM (#42986576)
Perhaps I'm too cynical, but somehow I doubt that those with decision making power that were in favour of selling at the time regret much.

Our modern political economy is almost entirely focused on ensuring that everything that can be sold to private entities (read, the market) is. In this ideology the sale would be viewed as a success regardless of any practical downsides.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Ekaros on Saturday February 08, 2025 @05:07PM (#42986609)
I think this is just the end-stage failures of social democracies. Fund the things now, even if it means selling anything that can generate slight profits in long term. Or provide basic services at reasonable rates. Eventually everything is sold and out sourced, money has been wasted on buying votes and the debt is maxed out. Then the system will fail...
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by dartos on Saturday February 08, 2025 @07:07PM (#42987311)
Selling almost any state function to a private entity is almost the opposite of what social democrats want to do…

I think you mean neoliberal democracies.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by treyd on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:30PM (#42987125)
It's the end state of neoliberal policies. That's the ideological tendency that actually has the obsession with markets and strangling government capacity to do anything other than be a spigot for tax dollars. Scandinavian social democracies aren't perfect but they don't suffer from these entirely predictable problems to nearly the same degree.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by animal_spirits on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:57PM (#42987248)
I think one problem is that most people confuse private ownership with "the market". Just because a utility company is owned and operated by a private entity does not mean it is influenced by market forces. Utilities fall under a natural or technological monopoly. Due to space constraints it is not desirable or efficient to have multiple companies run pipes, cables, or other infrastructure alongside each other to compete. There are no competitive forces; there is no market. Publicly run institutions or privately run+ publicly regulated institutions better serve the needs of the people in these conditions.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by forgetfreeman on Saturday February 08, 2025 @09:52PM (#42988050)
I think a related thing that many people get confused by is the idea that market forces even exist. It's very rare these days to find industry segments where participants actively compete on quality or price. The whole idea is a holdover from how business was done 40 years ago.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by _DeadFred_ on Saturday February 08, 2025 @10:15PM (#42988143)
And with today's investors just buying funds/picking some 'group' on the 401k website, they aren't investing in a company, counting on receiving dividends from the company for the rest of their lives, and therefore forcing the company to be healthy. Instead they are counting on the stock going up short term, something totally different than buying and holding for dividends. And they just keep putting money into the generic pools of XYZ stock fund, again not a specific stock that they then hold accountable for anything. In fact they can't even punish a specific company by selling it's stock, only an entire ETF or 401 fund that the company is buried in.

And then there's dark pools. Trading isn't even done on the market anymore.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by maest on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:50PM (#42993200)
> And then there's dark pools.

This is such a non-sequitor, it undermines your entire post.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by dgoldstein0 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:51AM (#42988986)
market forces do exist. But it varies highly from industry to industry and product category to category.

Food: - restaurants definitely compete with each other, mostly in each local area - and within that, different slices of the restaurant business more directly compete, e.g. fast food is more competing with each other than fine dining. - BUT: we have a huge problem with a lack of competition in the supply chain driving prices up for everyone, at least in the US. - Groceries are similarly impacted by supply chain monopolies

Smartphones: high end smartphones are a oligopoly: - Apple vs Samsung vs HTC and several other tech companies producing phones; Apple definitely commands quite a bit of a premium, as do some of the nicer Android phones. But on the whole, the companies really are fighting to one-up each other with better features, battery life, etc. - quality is improving, even if the price is over-charging vs the ideal competitive market. Low end phones are even more fiercely competitive

Other electronic categories seem to show decent market dynamics; headphones, earbuds, usb peripherals, keyboards, etc. all seem very commoditized; there certainly are brands that try to command a bit of a premium based on reputation / marketing, but the cheap options are often good enough and definitely have a very competitive market. Big electronics like GPUs and gaming consoles though I think it's easier to start considering market distortions due to more monopoly power.

Of course there are no shortage of monopolistic practices out there, e.g. for utilities, collusion on rent, online retail (Amazon), textbook prices, medical care & pharmaceuticals, and even more mundane things like frozen potatoes and chicken.

---

The thing that bothers me most with the simplistic view that "the market will do it better" is that the whole premise of market forces giving the most efficient price assumes that (a) a commodity is being traded by (b) a large number of buyers and sellers, none of whom have any significant share of the market. Many markets either (a) aren't trading a commodity (e.g. iPhones and Android phones aren't interchangeable so Apple can command a premium price) or (b) have consolidated buying or selling to the point that they don't have the large number of independent buyers or sellers necessary to have the price be set by market dynamics rather than the monopolist or monopsonist. And the people promoting "let the market fix it" either are too dumb to realize that, or more likely are letting their rich friends make a quick buck or want to score political points by promoting smaller government.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by animal_spirits on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:35AM (#42989152)
Market forces do exist. I'm not sure why you think they do not. You are plain incorrect to claim that it is the exception for industries to compete on quality and price, at least in the U.S.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by forgetfreeman on Sunday February 09, 2025 @10:19PM (#42996570)
How certain are you of your position? There are 3 major mobile telecoms in the country. Their service plans and coverage are roughly comparable. There are a handful of parent corporations that own fast food franchises in the country. Their product offerings and price points are roughly the same and all opportunistically raised prices after supply side disruptions from the pandemic were largely resolved. Most consumer appliances (regardless of brand) are assembled from parts made in the same factory. Similar features, similar life expectancy, similar price. Same with packaged food brands, clothing, furniture, building materials, this list is basically endless, and a product of a few decades of unchecked corporate mergers and acquisitions and the steady march of private equity into just about every market niche in existence.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by darreninthenet on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:47AM (#42988970)
Depends how you do it... in the UK we have the underlying infrastructure government owned and we choose who to buy our electricity and gas from.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by philjohn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:52AM (#42989411)
For electric and gas that works as it's all just accounting. Energy company A buys futures for has and electricity and it all gets provided via the grid.

For trains it's much harder - yes, there are two providers on the WCML, but they're not equal (one runs faster trains) and as such there's zero real competition.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by darreninthenet on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:44AM (#42990057)
Is the slower train cheaper? If so, isn't that a competitive market choice?
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by anticensor on Sunday February 09, 2025 @11:24AM (#42991622)
The slow train has more stations to stop at, hence there is not a real choice for rural people.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:45PM (#42992588)
These things are a choice though. The natural monopoly isn't the trains, it's the tracks. And it's not maintenance of the tracks, it's ownership of them.

So you have the government own the tracks, contract with a private company to maintain them. Then anyone can use the tracks, like anyone can use the roads. Private companies offer train service to the public. All they need is rolling stock and they can start selling tickets. You then get a market that looks like airlines, i.e. entering the market is a moderate investment (millions; buy rolling stock/planes) rather than needing billions to build the network itself. More popular routes get more suppliers, which turns into more frequent service. There is plenty of competition because rolling stock is mobile and can easily be reassigned according to customer demand.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by lukegb on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @04:53AM (#43010877)
Open access rail operators are not permitted to compete with franchisees (on the same routes/proposition) - there's a test that is applied before granting a license to ensure that the services will be "not primarily abstractive" - that is, that the operator will generate new revenue rather than simply taking away from the franchisee.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Empact on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:33PM (#42992055)
Services subject to natural monopolies are good candidates for being run cooperatively, by / on behalf of the market participants, so that there is not the incentive to extract rents via market power. Government-run may be practical from e.g. a fundraising perspective, but these services could be run wholly privately as co-ops.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:27PM (#42993003)
In theory having the government run it should have the same effect. In practice what happens is that voters don't separately elect the utility's board and then the mayor gets elected on the basis of some school or tax issues and allows the government-run utility to become wasteful or corrupt.

What could be interesting is to have the local government found a co-op, i.e. they issue a bond to do the build-out and then hand the network to a co-op in exchange for a contract to pay the debt, essentially giving the co-op the backing of the government's credit rating for the initial build-out. Then the co-op board gets separately elected by its customers so they're directly accountable to the customers for any shenanigans.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by BehindBlueEyes on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @11:23AM (#43026863)
Easier said than done these days. We had a coop managing out drinking water with local government support. Being a coop excluded them from grants and eventually the board burnt out and gave up. Local government now operates the thing - you'd think they'd be accountable to voters but they can only get grant money with strings attached. They can repair a few pipes only if they install chlorination that no one wants and will add more maintenance costs because of pressure from health and safety - the provider must guarantee water is safe at the end point so boiling water, which everyone does here, is no longer acceptable apparently. There isn't a big enough population that increasing the cost of water would make a difference.

All that to say, voters here do care about utilities, and the coop solution worked for about 25 years iirc but it can't work in today's "one solution fits all" regulatory context anymore, at least where i live. Things are far from that simple in practice.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by jopsen on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:36PM (#42987151)
Sure, they do we're just not as far along the curve!

That said, who is to say the trend isn't reversible some day.

Also let's not forget the selling to private operators does provide benefits, not always, it's not the magic fix we pretend it is.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by wisty on Saturday February 08, 2025 @07:28PM (#42987424)
Neoliberalism fails because of what economists call "the theory of the second best". Neoliberalism fundamentally assumes that the best practical system is as close as possible to an ideal free market, but it's not, due to local minima (often ones we've already found!) often being better.

The best system is a free market, if possible. But the second best system may not be close to the best system, it may be a local minima that is very different.

A classic example is that small companies and no unions is theoretically best, but monopoly unions vs monopoly companies is the second best (since there's no single monopoly, so they negotiate something close to the theoretical ideal).

Free markets are best, but if the government is going to heavily subsidise and regulate the power companies (as they are natural monoplolies, so they either get regulated or they abuse their position) then maybe it's best to just cut out the middle man.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mindslight on Saturday February 08, 2025 @09:40PM (#42987997)
You're still assuming that free markets will find the global optimum, which is equivalent to asserting P=NP and shrouding it in no true Scotsman.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Arrath on Sunday February 09, 2025 @08:25AM (#42990521)
Isn't part of the problem assuming that there is a single global optimum?

It seems there are at least two, such as in the case of utilities: best services or best profits for the shareholders. Again in the case of utilities we see time and again that these are mutually exclusive optimums as a privatized utility makes cuts to investment, build out, maintenance, customer service, or other aspects of the business in the goals of increasing profits, to the detriment of the quality of their service.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mindslight on Sunday February 09, 2025 @11:58AM (#42991840)
Yes, although usually when people are making these arguments they're imagining optimization across different entities and through time (relative to foreseeable events / probabilities). It then becomes much easier to write off conflicting higher-level subjective goals as not being actually valued in some imagined universal sense. The fallacy is rejecting the stickiness of human-made structure, even though that structure is all around us.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hgomersall on Sunday February 09, 2025 @08:52AM (#42990688)
It's hard to argue that as a society we should construct systems that have any goal that isn't optimising (in this example) services. If that aligns with maximising profits for shareholders, then great, if not then the system is not working as it needs to. IMO it's never really about free markets per se, but about competition. If the market is not delivering effective competition, then it should be made to do so. Competition is what aligns shareholder interest with customer interest.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by forgetfreeman on Saturday February 08, 2025 @09:56PM (#42988062)
I think it's very important to define who's being optimally served when declaring a market ideology "best". Free markets are demonstrably better at servicing capital, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't equate to optimum outcomes for the proletariat (why isn't there a better word for this, I can just see the redbaiting coming from a mile away).
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by walthamstow on Saturday February 08, 2025 @10:15PM (#42988144)
FDR's VP Henry Wallace used the term 'the common man' which I always liked.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:00PM (#42993306)
> Free markets are demonstrably better at servicing capital

This premise is highly questionable. Certainly for competitive markets it's entirely false. Uncompetitive markets suffer largely the same failure mode as government bureaucracies, but it's not even clear that this is actually worse, because government bureaucracies are susceptible to not only charging bloated service fees for mediocre service, they can also be captured into diverting tax dollars to private cronies. Just because the government owns the real estate doesn't mean it's manufacturing its own trucks and networking equipment and copy machines, but as soon as it isn't, it's buying that stuff from the market and you need a competitive market or you're still screwed.

So what it comes down to is, you need a competitive market.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by forgetfreeman on Sunday February 09, 2025 @10:10PM (#42996527)
If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP. Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the US. Clear that bar and all that's left is justifying private equity eating everything from fast food franchises to the healthcare system.

Apologists love to complain that <insert problematic market outcome> isn't the product of a true market but that dog doesn't hunt. We have the economic system we have. We call it capitalism. It produces the above mentioned (and countless other) excerable outcomes. No excuses.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Monday February 10, 2025 @12:25AM (#42997209)
> If you find that premise highly questionable produce a cogent explanation for why real wages have been flat as a fucking strap for the last 40 years despite massive gains to GDP.

Cost disease induced by regulatory capture and a massive housing shortage induced by zoning regulations.

> Once you've cleared that hurdle your next task is justifying the current massively skewed (and worsening) income distribution in the US.

Poverty traps created by social assistance programs that put overlapping benefits phase outs on the lower middle class, causing them to incur oppressively high de facto marginal tax rates that in some cases exceed 100% of marginal income.

> Clear that bar and all that's left is justifying private equity eating everything from fast food franchises to the healthcare system.

This is regulatory capture again. Captured markets consolidate and then corporate raiders notice that the incumbents have a monopoly but aren't screwing their customers quite as hard as a monopolist can do. The underlying cause is government regulations insulating the incumbents from competition; private equity are the maggots that come to eat the corpse once the market is already dead.

Notice how there was "capitalism" in the 1950s but lower levels of corporate raiders or income inequality etc. So then you might wonder what has changed between then and now, and an interesting proxy is the number of pages in the US Code and Code of Federal Regulations.

> We have the economic system we have. We call it capitalism.

If you judge an economic system by what people call it, we called the thing that happened in 20th century Russia "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" and the thing that happened in WWII Germany "National Socialism" and by this logic we shouldn't attempt anything called "Socialism" ever again.

But if socialism is the thing where you put the government in charge of the economy and capitalism is the thing where you limit the government from interfering with the market then socialism is the thing we've actually tried. How are you going to put e.g. the US healthcare system on "free markets" when it's the most regulated market in the US?

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by forgetfreeman on Monday February 10, 2025 @02:51AM (#42997860)
> Cost disease induced by regulatory capture and a massive housing shortage induced by zoning regulations.

Ish. While regulatory capture is at the heart of most of the truly ass outcomes attributable to capitalism it's comical that an attempt would be made to assert less government oversight would in some way be beneficial. What, are we pretending the last several decades of blissfully ignored potential anti-trust cases, questionable mergers, etc. aren't the direct result of captured legislators being told to just sit on their hands?

Incidentally the "housing crisis" has nothing to do with zoning. Offshoring manufacturing and permitting AG conglomerates to bankrupt the majority of family farmers has resulted in rural communities being stripped of economic opportunities which caused a flood of economic refugees into high cost residential markets. Proof: pundits screech about a lack of affordable housing when ~8 million units sit unoccupied, many outright abandoned. In Other News: when zoning changes are made to permit the kind of multi-story mixed use structures that are hyped as a solution to the housing crisis what happens is they get built, the local market gets an influx of condos that nobody who lives in the area can afford and nearby housing increases in cost (a net reduction in affordable housing), literally the exact opposite of the effects advertised.

> How are you going to put e.g. the US healthcare system on "free markets" when it's the most regulated market in the US?

Most regulated...the what now? Private equity firms and healthcare megaconglomerates (oh I'm looking at you Duke Health) that are sweeping up private practices and hospitals all over the country. Without exception this leads to measurable decline in quality of care, and is the leading cause of rural hospital closure nationwide. This phenomenon is also driving up the cost of performing clinical trials as these outfits are savvy enough to intentionally target practices that perform trials. The resulting increase in fees to run a clinical trial are so steep they trigger fraud warnings in industry benchmarking software. Anyway, given we're the only industrialized nation who's healthcare system isn't entirely controlled by the government this claim seems pretty rich. One of several ironies here being freeish marketish healthcare produces some of the worst healthcare outcomes of any industrialized nation, at four times the cost. Wheee.

Put another way yeah the government is culpable only in the sense they decided to not actually govern, thus letting The Market run rampant.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @01:02PM (#43015947)
> What, are we pretending the last several decades of blissfully ignored potential anti-trust cases, questionable mergers, etc. aren't the direct result of captured legislators being told to just sit on their hands?

Regulatory capture isn't just industry capturing the government so they can avoid regulations. They capture the government so they can control the regulations, and then use them to exclude competitors by increasing regulatory barriers to entry.

It's pretty hard to sustain a monopoly in a market with low barriers to entry because the entry cost is lower than the prevailing prices, and new entrants don't sell to the monopolist unless they're offered more than they could make from staying in the market, which is in turn more than the cost of entry. So entering the market stays profitable because you either make money by selling to customers or you make money by getting acquired. But the monopolist doesn't actually have an unlimited supply of money for acquisitions, so new competitors keep popping up until they run out of cash and then one of them sticks, or one of them is e.g. a co-op that isn't interested in selling.

To prevent this the monopolist needs the market to have higher barriers to entry. One way of doing this is to become so vertically integrated that new entrants would have to reproduce the entire supply chain to enter the market, and this is the case where you actually need antitrust enforcement, but it also isn't the common case. And it's hard for anyone to get a vertically integrated monopoly to begin with without the common case, because it's hard to monopolize the vertical before you have a monopoly in the original market.

The common case is the monopolist gets the government to pass laws making it more expensive to enter the market until new entrants are deterred.

> Offshoring manufacturing and permitting AG conglomerates to bankrupt the majority of family farmers has resulted in rural communities being stripped of economic opportunities which caused a flood of economic refugees into high cost residential markets. Proof: pundits screech about a lack of affordable housing when ~8 million units sit unoccupied, many outright abandoned.

This is just "demand is not always in the same place as it was before", it's only a problem if you constrain supply from increasing in the places where the demand has moved. This is the same reason you can have unoccupied units and a shortage at the same time, when the units aren't in the same location as the demand. The vacancy rate in e.g. Manhattan is at record lows.

Also, the shortage is by significantly more than 8 million units.

> when zoning changes are made to permit the kind of multi-story mixed use structures that are hyped as a solution to the housing crisis what happens is they get built, the local market gets an influx of condos that nobody who lives in the area can afford and nearby housing increases in cost (a net reduction in affordable housing), literally the exact opposite of the effects advertised.

This is the "induced demand" theory, which is rubbish. There is more demand for higher density areas than there is supply, so the price is high. If you increase the density of an area, you satisfy some of the demand, not only by creating that housing but by increasing the density of that area, which makes it more attractive because it can now sustain more local shops etc., so more people also want to move into the directly adjacent existing housing.

This does decrease the cost of housing, it's just that the housing that becomes more affordable isn't the housing directly adjacent to the new housing. It's in the place people left in order to move there.

What's happening is essentially this: Suppose you have areas with density levels 1, 2 and 3. Level 3 is the most dense, most desirable and most expensive. You increase the density of a level 2 area so it becomes a level 3 area by building more housing. The price of all three density levels goes down across the region, because there are now more level 3 areas available, so you don't have to bid as high to live in one, and some people move from level 1 and 2 areas to the new level 3 area, which makes more supply available there too. But that specific neighborhood used to be level 2 and is now level 3, so it, unlike the region as a whole, can increase in price, because the new level 3 price might still be more expensive than the old level 2 price.

And even that can be solved by building enough level 3 housing across the region so that the cost of level 3 housing falls below the previous cost of level 2 housing, but for that you have to build even more.

> This phenomenon is also driving up the cost of performing clinical trials as these outfits are savvy enough to intentionally target practices that perform trials. The resulting increase in fees to run a clinical trial are so steep they trigger fraud warnings in industry benchmarking software.

To take one example, the US requires separate clinical trials from the ones already done in Europe. There is no legitimate reason to even be doing them a second time, the European ones should be accepted for approval for sale in the US, but they're not. Because the incumbents like it that way, because it reduces competition and they own the regulators.

Another solid example is the entire concept of certificate of need laws. It's quite possibly the most naked example of anti-competition legislation in existence.

> Anyway, given we're the only industrialized nation who's healthcare system isn't entirely controlled by the government this claim seems pretty rich.

There are several industrialized countries with private healthcare systems that are all more efficient than the US system. The US system is notoriously corrupt and inefficient because the incumbents use regulation to inhibit competition.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hgomersall on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:48AM (#42989195)
It fails fundamentally because the underlying economic theory is built on a sink hole and constructed from cheese. There's pretty much no relation between the models that espouse neoliberal policies and reality, except those bits that were too egregious to ignore so were patched in as afterthoughts.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:37PM (#42993081)
> A classic example is that small companies and no unions is theoretically best, but monopoly unions vs monopoly companies is the second best (since there's no single monopoly, so they negotiate something close to the theoretical ideal).

This is a pretty bad example because monopoly unions vs. monopoly companies is extraordinarily bad to the point of being a plausible worst case scenario. The company is then free to run roughshod over its customers and suppliers and use its resources to capture the government and the union not only does nothing to prevent this but actually encourages it because then they can extract more of the monopoly rents for themselves. Then the normal tendency for the public to demand antitrust enforcement when met with an abusive monopolist is blunted by the union's support for the monopoly and prevents the monopoly from being toppled.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by SoftTalker on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:45PM (#42987193)
They’ve really only existed since the end of WWII and were rescued from that war by the U S so not really enough time to judge.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by wesselbindt on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:19AM (#42989961)
I can't speak for the parent post of course, but what I think they might mean is this: social democracy eventually devolves into neoliberalism (or worse), which, as you rightly point out, is geared towards making life much, much worse for the many to the benefit of a shrinking few.

To see some examples of this, look at the arguably social democratic Keynesian US from the fifties, and where they're at now. Similarly for the United Kingdom. Labour used to fight for social democratic policies, and since the advent of "New Labour" (Thatcher's greatest victory), they're essentially a right wing party. For a much more harrowing example, look at Allende in Chile and the US sponsored coup by Pinochet.

In general what you see is that the social democratic status of a state is an unstable one. Roughly speaking, the people who would benefit from neoliberal policies happen to have a lot of money with which they can and do influence politics. There's campaign funds, lobbying, but much more importantly owning the media[1]. Propaganda is incredibly powerful (we are not immune), and it has been used successfully time and again to get people to vote against their own interests, such as abolishing social democratic practices.

[1] In the case of Chile, and for example Indonesia, the mechanism is much more violent, but the principle the same. Capital is spent to successfully influence politics in favor of capital.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ksec on Saturday February 08, 2025 @09:49PM (#42988034)
>In this ideology the sale would be viewed as a success regardless of any practical downsides.

In other places on earth, selling public utility requires the company to operate at similar or better level of services previously provided while retaining the cost. And those deals are mostly regulated, penalties when not meeting them.

And it used to be, may be in rare cases the people in Government making those deals actually knows what they are getting out of it, so the contract are all well written.

Now it seems they are selling because 1. They dont have money. 2. They are running it poorly. 3. They are bribed or have incentives to sell it. All with no caring of how the people they serve were getting any good value out of it.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Saturday February 08, 2025 @11:46PM (#42988525)
I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times.

Our railroads paid a nice 300m in divident every year then corona came, people were told to stay home. You can guess who had to pay for the lack of travelers.

The most silly are ISP's. The prices in each country depend on how much people can pay and what you get for it is rng

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by philjohn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:49AM (#42989388)
Privatize the profit, socialise the losses.

The one privatisation I believe the UK got right was British Telecom.

We now have a strongly regulated infrastructure side called OpenReach - the price they can charge for last mile connectivity is limited, and as such we have a load of different ISP's which either compete on tech and service (AAISP, Zen) or cost (PlusNet et al).

And then a proliferation of alternative last mile providers has also occurred - I now have the option of 900/100 FTTP from OpenReach based suppliers, 1130/104 DOCSIS from Virgin Media and 900/900 FTTP from CityFibre based suppliers.

I'm paying £40 a month for the latter.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ksec on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:45AM (#42989849)
It is one of those rare cases where Government actually knows where the monopoly could get into and formed OpenReach. Probably worth a submission on its own [1] but UK is slowly and surely getting all the FTTP roll out.

Hopefully there will be enough push to get 1Gbps Connection to every home rather than settled on 30Mbps.

[1] EXCLUSIVE: January 2025 update on broadband availability across the UK, nations and regions

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/10528-exclusive-january-...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by rsynnott on Sunday February 09, 2025 @08:47AM (#42990649)
This is partly because the _early_ days of private BT were so bad that they really had to regulate, hard. Openreach didn’t come into existence for more than 20 years after the privatisation of BT, and it happened because the state required it to happen.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:33PM (#42992487)
> I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times.

You can straightforwardly privatize things that can't be allowed to fail. Power generation is a decent example: If you have a hundred independent generating companies that all sell into a live auction market, they have to compete with each other which keeps prices down and the market as a whole remains reliable because there are many independent suppliers using different generation methods and if any one of them experiences a failure you can immediately switch to the others. The market has the incentive to be able to supply even during grid stress because the price will go up then, so suppliers with reserve capacity make back their costs for keeping it in reserve.

The problem comes when there is corruption. Instead of having a competitive market, the contract is assigned to cronies, or a lack of antitrust enforcement allows the market to consolidate until the suppliers are a cartel. Then, since competition is thing that gives privatization its advantage, the lack of competition causes the public to get screwed.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by tofflos on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:43PM (#42993138)
There can't be a competitive market. The entity that operates the grid has a monopoly on all customers in the area. So I would say entities that govern grids fall in a can't-be-allowed-to-fail-category while entities that govern generators do not (unless they buy enough generators in a region to effectively become a monopoly).
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:05PM (#42994559)
If you had a monopoly generating company and it failed then the power goes out even if the grid is up. It's just as important as the grid, but it's amenable to competition.

"Operating" the grid isn't the natural monopoly either. The natural monopoly is actually the physical space beneath the grid, i.e. the roads. If a storm knocks down a pole or some transmission lines need to be upgraded you could put out bids to any number of companies to come and do the work. If customers want to buy power from a generator, the grid is used to deliver it, but that doesn't mean the grid operator has to be an intermediary between the supplier and the customer instead of a vendor of the supplier paid to deliver power. It's not even obvious that they should be paying per kWh instead of funding distribution through taxes in the same way as the roads, since a well-functioning grid should never exceed peak capacity but using otherwise-idle transmission capacity has no variable cost.

And then what's the natural monopoly? Just physical ownership of the infrastructure, and some accountants to predict when demand is about to outstrip supply and bids should be put out to expand capacity.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:18PM (#43008916)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I didn't get to bid in an auction. Providers bid until they had enough then the price was fixed based on the most expensive source.

We also designated a windy chunk of government land next to my city to private wind energy. Besides land it needed a bit of subsidee to spin them up.

Big turbines happened that provide enough power to run the city.

Not that the city didn't have the money to do it themselves. Its dwellers could also easily afford it. That's just not how things work around here.

Mysterious actors blew up some pipeline some place in the north and the highest bit went up dramatically.

It didn't fail, people just couldn't pay their bills anymore.

The market was very good at increasing profit when demand was larger than supply.

One could imagine worse circumstances with a larger effect.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:20PM (#43015425)
> The market was very good at increasing profit when demand was larger than supply.

That's what it's supposed to do. Then in the absence of regulatory barriers to entry, new suppliers enter the market to capture those profits, until the profits aren't so big anymore because there are more suppliers.

One of the things that messes people up here is that they want consistency but don't want to pay for it. You have a competitive market which is providing low prices until there is a supply disruption. Then prices are temporarily high. If you wanted to you could have bought insurance or futures etc. so that you would always pay a consistent price, but then you'd be paying a higher price than the market on the days when supply is good so that you could pay a lower price when supply is low. People then complain about that too, but those are your options; if you pick the "don't buy insurance" one then you're exposed to events, but you should be the one who gets to choose.

And maybe if you're poor you don't want the insurance, what you want is to have the lower price most of the time and cut back your usage when the price is high. But either way, that should be something you get to decide instead of something somebody decides for you.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @08:37PM (#43031824)
Yes, markets are suppose to kick you when you are down.

My gut says it is like needing for example a car. You could rent or lease or you could buy one in cash on on credit. Each choice makes sense to someone. If it is to be a collective choice/deal it should be cheaper and I see no reason why it can't offer the same options. We have this weird tendency to shove all collective arrangements in governments boots where we know the outcome will be something stupid, turn into something ridiculous or both.

I really want to see gov processes strictly defined. Then we can have the government set up entirely independent bodies that strictly follow their charter. Ideally it pays no taxes, no one works there, no one owns it. I might even like blockchain for this purpose. We want 1234 new lease contracts for 2026, any company may bid, customers press accept. The one most accepted gets to provide the [proverbial] cars.

It seems doable.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by specialist on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @11:47AM (#43027102)
> You can straightforwardly privatize things that can't be allowed to fail.

What are some examples of successfully privatized utilities?

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by account42 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @04:57AM (#43010899)
Where are those mythical other places?
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by cscurmudgeon on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:51AM (#42989206)
Don’t blame this on the market. A true market won’t have a heavy handed regulator in bed with a govt approved monopoly.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by LtWorf on Sunday February 09, 2025 @11:09AM (#42991507)
A true market doesn't exist.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by DrillShopper on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:29PM (#42993614)
> A true market won’t have a heavy handed regulator in bed with a govt approved monopoly.

So the only way to have a true market is to count on the opposite of human greed.

Well hopefully that works out.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by fransje26 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:50PM (#42993830)
> but somehow I doubt that those with decision making power that were in favour of selling at the time regret much.

They possibly even managed to buy a luxury car in the years that followed. Or went on holiday more often. Or somehow unexpectedly landed a nice and cush job at said energy company.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by johngladtj on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:34PM (#42987143)
That's not how the power grid works
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ericmay on Saturday February 08, 2025 @06:35PM (#42987149)
How does it work in relation to the person you replied to? Genuinely asking.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mattmaroon on Sunday February 09, 2025 @08:41AM (#42990616)
Power companies in almost all cases don't supply power directly to homes. They supply it to the grid, and the grid supplies to homes. In states that are de-regulated, you pick your power company, you don't pick the servicer, and both charge you a fee. You pay one fee to the generator, one to the grid operator. (It may be rolled into one bill, but it could be going two separate places). The generator must sell to the grid power equal to what it sells.

I'd guess what happened is this small town generated power and let its people buy it at a reduced rate. GP just didn't get into that level of detail.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by massysett on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:41PM (#42992110)
Excellent explanation of all this:

https://youtu.be/sH1PVVJuBtE?si=EK4-rmq4CUxw0ttU

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hansvm on Saturday February 08, 2025 @10:17PM (#42988156)
I've lived in a few dozen cities (most very, very rural) in the US, and The Bay has, by far, the worst electricity out of any of them. We have longer outages as a planned practice than I'd have from ice storms knocking down half the forest or waves partially flooding the town.

As an outside observer, the fact that PG&E can lie to the state and request money for maintenance, subsequently sending that money to shareholders, looks like a likely candidate for many of the problems.

It's especially annoying that it's the lowest quality power while it's working (compared to a pure sine signal), has the highest count of days with some power blip, the highest number of full days without power each year, it's 2.5x more expensive than anywhere else I've lived, and they don't even have snow or ice or the same levels of wind and rain as the other places with better power. Plus they're servicing more people per square mile. It ought to be more efficient.

Maybe CA really is special somehow, but it looks like ordinary corruption.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by krallja on Saturday February 08, 2025 @10:58PM (#42988326)
Californians blame it all on Enron, but that can't be the only reason, right?
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by zmgsabst on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:49AM (#42988770)
The Enron scandal was 24 years ago, which is a generation ago — almost two.

I’d guess the problem is more endemic to their political system.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by cinntaile on Sunday February 09, 2025 @04:55AM (#42989663)
20-30 years is 1 generation.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ahoef on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:16AM (#42989751)
There are genetic generations and cultural generations. I think they mean the cultural generations.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mschuster91 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:15AM (#42989950)
The thing is, large scandals can have an aftereffect that lasts for decades.

Berlin for example had a massive bank collapse in 2001 under the Conservative government that ended up placing the state of Berlin into billions of euros worth of debt and financial risk. The succeeding SD/Left/Green triplet coalitions had to fire-sell off many state-held assets like the water utility (that ended up a disaster on its own [2]) and especially a huge amount of residential real estate, which is now contributing to the insane rent explosions in Berlin.

To this day, Berlin hasn't recovered from all the penny-pinching of the last decades.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_Bankenskandal

[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_Wasserbetriebe#Streit...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by bigfudge on Sunday February 09, 2025 @11:42AM (#42991729)
This sounds like the state of the entire UK
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by graemep on Monday February 10, 2025 @04:25AM (#42998455)
Much worse. I am really sick of British people (those who have not lived abroad or had really experience of other countries) thinking the UK is uniquely bad. Its in fact better than than most places in most ways. Why do you think people want to immigrate here (including lots of highly skilled people who can pick where they live, and lots of people from other rich countries)? Why do you think so many of us with dual nationality who can just go somewhere else as a right live (ship our stuff and get on plane, whenever we like) here?

We have not had anything on the scale of what the GP describes of a city going billions into debt - even Birmingham is orders of magnitude less bad.

The government sold assets, but not at fire sale prices. I do not think selling utilities was a great idea, but its not as bad as either what GP describes, nor the "small town in Michigan" example at the top of this thread (when did you last experience a blackout in the UK?).

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by DrillShopper on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:25PM (#42993566)
And then they killed the nuke plants for coal because they're scared little babies.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mschuster91 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:27PM (#42993592)
Nuke had no future in Germany. The plants haven't had security maintenance in many years because it all was relaxed due to the pending shutdown, the plants were many decades old, we don't have a place to store spent fuel (unlike Americans who have ample desert space where no one is ever gonna be bothered), new fuel comes to a shocking amount from Russia, constructing new plants takes >>10 years and many billions of euros.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by DrillShopper on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:32PM (#42993647)
The nukes not having a future in Germany is completely down to the Green Party and their pathological obsession with killing nuclear power.

They organized and succeeded.

Where was the opposition? Is the entire German environmental movement beholden to the Green Party?

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by mschuster91 on Monday February 10, 2025 @02:53AM (#42997878)
Germans never really liked nuclear power from the start, all NPPs drew massive local opposition that was by far not just the back-then new Green Party.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by DrillShopper on Monday February 10, 2025 @05:27PM (#43006109)
Is the term for NIMBY in German the same as it is in English?
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by eliaspro on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @02:54PM (#43017544)
The final decision to shutdown the nuclear plants happened under a conservative CDU-led government.

And even it they don't seem to have memory now of doing so, I applaud them for this specific decision back then.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by viernullvier on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:22PM (#42995177)
There have never been any grid-scale nuclear power plants in the state of Berlin. I don't see how this statement relates to the prior discussion in any way other than vague geographic proximity.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by theGnuMe on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:33PM (#42992054)
The deep Texas freeze was the same thing.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by a123b456c on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:00PM (#42993317)
Don't forget SDG&E/Sempra. San Diego locals hate them with a passion. It is crazy that an area with such abundant solar generation and environmental concerns should have such expensive power.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by tekknik on Monday February 10, 2025 @02:02PM (#43003860)
Some areas served by SDG&E have community owned power generation and SDG&E handles delivery. The price SDG&E charges for delivery is usually 30% more than generation costs.

Power bills increased after switching to community generated power.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by taneq on Sunday February 09, 2025 @07:23PM (#42995583)
You guys are getting full days without power? That’s disappointing. I’m in Australia and since moving a decade ago to a suburb with underground power, I think we’ve had maybe three or four outages that lasted long enough to notice, and all were fixed within a few hours.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by nasmorn on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @10:52AM (#43014268)
I frequently visit a farm in Austria on the very end of a rural transmission line that can be cut during storms by tree fall almost every year. I don’t think they have ever been without power for a full day. In Vienna if average something like 8min a year
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by gnopgnip on Saturday February 08, 2025 @11:22PM (#42988429)
Alameda had municipal internet. In the 2009 financial collapse the city was facing bankruptcy and sold off the internet and cable to comcast. The alternatives weren’t great, the cost of borrowing at the time was high and cutting services is unpopular. The residents benefited from having the infrastructure either way. And this let the city keep municipal power, around half the cost of pg&e.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by szundi on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:06AM (#42989049)
These politicians are smart enough and can see through the first layer of obvious. They wanted to win the next election and this had nothing to do with that, but the money they could spend on shiny bullshit. Or they just got consulting jobs after losing it, nah, who cares. Was it theirs or what.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hiAndrewQuinn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @04:01AM (#42989441)
I always like to put numbers to things. To put some numbers to this, the average residential rates for electricity in modern-day MI is around ~$0.20 per kWh. Louisiana appears to be one of the cheapest states in this regard, averaging around $0.12 per kWh.

As a selfish comparison point, the average residential rate for Finland, an EU country known for its recent nuclear developments (great!), is ~$0.25 per kWh, about 25% higher. France, well known for its pro-nuke approach, seems to average ~$0.28 per kWh, or about 40% higher. Germany, which has... Not done so, is around $0.40 per kWh, or about twice as high. Even Iceland, famed for its "almost free" geothermal power, seems to average $0.16-0.18 kWh for an ordinary residential connection - one must assume aluminum plants, etc can cut much better deals with the geothermal plants, through strategies like close colocation, of course.

These are very important factors to keep in mind, even if the absolute numbers seem small. Expensive electricity makes everything else more expensive as well. It touches every facet of our lives in a way not even food does. And making electricity cheaper probably benefits human welfare en masse in a huge way. It's a shame power management doesn't seem to be very attractive to recent EE grads like myself since it pays much worse and requires much more credentialing to break into compared to, say, WordPress development.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Gare on Sunday February 09, 2025 @04:37AM (#42989576)
> These are very important factors to keep in mind, even if the absolute numbers seem small. Expensive electricity makes everything else more expensive as well. It touches every facet of our lives in a way not even food does.

It has to be noted that in most EU countries electricity for business is quite cheaper than for households.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hiAndrewQuinn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @04:58AM (#42989674)
Correct, but this doesn't create as much of a wedge as you might suspect. It's also true in the US that commercial electricity tends to be 20-50% cheaper than the home delivered stuff. In the EU the additional tax burden means the difference is usually closer to 40-70%. Ironically, in this way, you could describe the EU as being far more business-friendly than the United States (by dint of being much more consumer-hostile, but hey).

Making the fundamental power generation cheaper is probably still the best lever a private actor can push.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by wreckdropibex on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:29AM (#42989788)
> the average residential rate for Finland, an EU country known for its recent nuclear developments (great!), is ~$0.25 per kWh, about 25% higher

Huh? More like 11-17c/kWh.

- Average spot price for 2024 was less than 6c/kwh https://www.nodesk.fi/sahkon-keskihinta-2024/

- Transmission costs are around 2-6c/kwh https://sahkokuningas.fi/sahkon-siirtohinta/

- Taxes bit less than 3c/kWh

Even if you add all those up, you only get max 15c/kWh.

As of today, you can get 2 year fixed price for less than 8c/kWh, even with that it only adds up to 17c/kWh, with most expensive transmission costs, taxes rounded up and energy price rounded up.

Nuclear energy has contributed to the cheap price, but so has wind power https://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/te/bfe4f5f4-0329-4cfe-989...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by hiAndrewQuinn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:00AM (#42989898)
https://countryeconomy.com/energy-and-environment/electricit... is where I'm pulling most of my data from, which itself seems to be using Eurostat as a source.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by korhojoa on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:41PM (#42992553)
Maybe this is a "including everything" proce, i.e. transmission, connection fees, etc.

I currently pay a flat ~8c/kWh. I could save by using spot price electricity but as I don't use much, this keeps the monthly cost predictable.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by andy_ppp on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:19AM (#42989962)
You can extrapolate this to why governments all over the world are effectively bankrupt, if you have no assets and instead rent them back from the rich it's extremely difficult to balance your books and the tax burden will go up forever. No amount of cost cutting will restore all public assets being owned by someone else and rented back at ever increasing costs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II1GOhoNpms

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by threeseed on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:32AM (#42990006)
In that video Brexit was not mentioned once.

Even though the UK will be £311bn worse off by 2035 because of it [1].

A decision that can't be blamed on the rich but instead is owned by the ordinary voter. Who then demands the same quality of life they had previously with the same taxation levels. It's delusional thinking and unfortunately no one has the political capital nor guts to correct them on it.

And it's a very different story here in Australia where none of what you/Gary said is true. The state governments are under financial strain because of huge investments in public transport infrastructure owned by the people.

[1] https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-new-report-suggests-uk-311...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by andy_ppp on Sunday February 09, 2025 @07:07AM (#42990162)
So several problems with infrastructure - the developers always underquote and then once there are overruns the government is locked in and doesn't want to bankrupt the companies making these public infrastructure projects otherwise nobody would ever build anything. Additionally borrowing for infrastructure is often done through public/private partnerships which ends up with private companies owning the infrastructure and payments being made by the government for all sort of things in addition to rent i.e. changing a lightbulb costs £2000 etc. Government tend to get all the downside and the rich (who own the debt and the companies involved in building these projects) tend to see all the upside, look at the utility and train companies in the UK for example, and hospitals under PFI.

The money for these projects is provided by the wealthy through the purchase of government bonds.

Brexit is a problem sure, nobody denies that, but QE of around £1tn since COVID, most of which ended up with the richest (see asset price increases and cash holdings and world stock markets at all time record levels) is even more of a problem as it makes normal people and tax income relatively even smaller so borrowing and taxes need to be increased. And of course we don't tax the people whose assets have gone up enormously until they sell those assets. Quite often rich people borrow money against those assets instead of realising a capital gains tax event or various other loopholes.

I don't know too much about the specific case of transport infrastructure in Australia, but if the government owned them outright without attached debts clearly they would be assets rather than liabilities.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Chris2048 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @11:02AM (#42991466)
Who "demand[ed] the same quality of life they had"?
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by DrillShopper on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:30PM (#42993627)
The majority of Brits who voted for this on the promise that the UK would be richer and better instead of poorer and even more bigoted/fascist.

We can argue about the reasoning behind that, but that seems to be what most Brits who voted for Brexit wanted

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Der_Einzige on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:39PM (#42992097)
The only governments which are not "bankrupt" are shitholes like Russia (and they only did it to prevent sanctions from harming their economy).

A healthy debt to GDP ratio (like what the USA has) is integral for a growing economy. Choke on it Austrians.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by HPsquared on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:13PM (#42992843)
There's also Norway, China etc, countries with productive SOEs. Those governments have debt but also significant assets.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by venkat223 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @06:26AM (#42989989)
In USA after 1 year of trump regime most of the cities will become ghost cities so all can be taken up by trump as projects of reality and he can make money along with elon musk this is the post truth realism
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Affric on Sunday February 09, 2025 @07:02AM (#42990132)
> “the tax payers are being ripped off as asset owners because once the debt incurred to pay for the energy system is cleared they just give out cheap electricity and don’t seek profit. It is more efficient to sell, reinvest, and then let some massive rent seeker over charge you for something you once owned”

The economists who argue for this, only slightly paraphrased.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by crazygringo on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:08PM (#42991898)
I have never heard a serious argument that it is more efficient to sell and reinvest from a finance perspective.

The argument is generally that private companies are more productive than public services due to productivity improvements that are forced via competition. There's no such forcing function for a government-provided service, enabling (potential) waste and bloat, depending on governmental competence and oversight.

The correct counter-argument is that there needs to be competition for that to happen. If you have only one electric utility for customers to choose from, the argument is totally invalidated.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by Affric on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:23PM (#42994691)
Here’s [1] a report from the early days of electricity privatisation in NSW. In all honesty it’s been about a decade since I have read it closely but I would say it’s fairly serious and it does like efficiency as a metric.

Underproductive though is certainly simpler but my understanding is that it was inefficient because the asset owner charging an equilibrium price should in theory lead to higher overall production (obviously lack of competition hurts this).

[1] https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/researchpapers/Documents/e...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ivell on Sunday February 09, 2025 @07:29AM (#42990263)
Coming from cities in a 3rd world country that had government owned utilities, I would say my experience is the opposite. Usually the government is underfunded, the employees have no motivation and often are not even available to work thanks to their guaranteed jobs. Rampant theft of power and government have no interest to curb it due to vote banks. Unpaid dues by the government to energy producing companies resulting in bankruptcy of those companies. Political parties giving out free power and water to capture votes.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ugh123 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @12:49PM (#42992156)
>but it was a very poor decision that I have to believe they regret

Unfortunately, I'm sure the folks that signed that deal were long gone before the problems started setting in

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by jt2190 on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:19PM (#42992919)
Why can’t you tell us the name of the town?