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Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ksec on Saturday February 08, 2025 @09:49PM (#42988034)
>In this ideology the sale would be viewed as a success regardless of any practical downsides.

In other places on earth, selling public utility requires the company to operate at similar or better level of services previously provided while retaining the cost. And those deals are mostly regulated, penalties when not meeting them.

And it used to be, may be in rare cases the people in Government making those deals actually knows what they are getting out of it, so the contract are all well written.

Now it seems they are selling because 1. They dont have money. 2. They are running it poorly. 3. They are bribed or have incentives to sell it. All with no caring of how the people they serve were getting any good value out of it.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Saturday February 08, 2025 @11:46PM (#42988525)
I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times.

Our railroads paid a nice 300m in divident every year then corona came, people were told to stay home. You can guess who had to pay for the lack of travelers.

The most silly are ISP's. The prices in each country depend on how much people can pay and what you get for it is rng

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by philjohn on Sunday February 09, 2025 @03:49AM (#42989388)
Privatize the profit, socialise the losses.

The one privatisation I believe the UK got right was British Telecom.

We now have a strongly regulated infrastructure side called OpenReach - the price they can charge for last mile connectivity is limited, and as such we have a load of different ISP's which either compete on tech and service (AAISP, Zen) or cost (PlusNet et al).

And then a proliferation of alternative last mile providers has also occurred - I now have the option of 900/100 FTTP from OpenReach based suppliers, 1130/104 DOCSIS from Virgin Media and 900/900 FTTP from CityFibre based suppliers.

I'm paying £40 a month for the latter.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by ksec on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:45AM (#42989849)
It is one of those rare cases where Government actually knows where the monopoly could get into and formed OpenReach. Probably worth a submission on its own [1] but UK is slowly and surely getting all the FTTP roll out.

Hopefully there will be enough push to get 1Gbps Connection to every home rather than settled on 30Mbps.

[1] EXCLUSIVE: January 2025 update on broadband availability across the UK, nations and regions

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/10528-exclusive-january-...

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by rsynnott on Sunday February 09, 2025 @08:47AM (#42990649)
This is partly because the _early_ days of private BT were so bad that they really had to regulate, hard. Openreach didn’t come into existence for more than 20 years after the privatisation of BT, and it happened because the state required it to happen.
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @01:33PM (#42992487)
> I would argue that if something may not fail you can only pretend to privatize. You only privatize the profit during the good times.

You can straightforwardly privatize things that can't be allowed to fail. Power generation is a decent example: If you have a hundred independent generating companies that all sell into a live auction market, they have to compete with each other which keeps prices down and the market as a whole remains reliable because there are many independent suppliers using different generation methods and if any one of them experiences a failure you can immediately switch to the others. The market has the incentive to be able to supply even during grid stress because the price will go up then, so suppliers with reserve capacity make back their costs for keeping it in reserve.

The problem comes when there is corruption. Instead of having a competitive market, the contract is assigned to cronies, or a lack of antitrust enforcement allows the market to consolidate until the suppliers are a cartel. Then, since competition is thing that gives privatization its advantage, the lack of competition causes the public to get screwed.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by tofflos on Sunday February 09, 2025 @02:43PM (#42993138)
There can't be a competitive market. The entity that operates the grid has a monopoly on all customers in the area. So I would say entities that govern grids fall in a can't-be-allowed-to-fail-category while entities that govern generators do not (unless they buy enough generators in a region to effectively become a monopoly).
Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Sunday February 09, 2025 @05:05PM (#42994559)
If you had a monopoly generating company and it failed then the power goes out even if the grid is up. It's just as important as the grid, but it's amenable to competition.

"Operating" the grid isn't the natural monopoly either. The natural monopoly is actually the physical space beneath the grid, i.e. the roads. If a storm knocks down a pole or some transmission lines need to be upgraded you could put out bids to any number of companies to come and do the work. If customers want to buy power from a generator, the grid is used to deliver it, but that doesn't mean the grid operator has to be an intermediary between the supplier and the customer instead of a vendor of the supplier paid to deliver power. It's not even obvious that they should be paying per kWh instead of funding distribution through taxes in the same way as the roads, since a well-functioning grid should never exceed peak capacity but using otherwise-idle transmission capacity has no variable cost.

And then what's the natural monopoly? Just physical ownership of the infrastructure, and some accountants to predict when demand is about to outstrip supply and bids should be put out to expand capacity.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:18PM (#43008916)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I didn't get to bid in an auction. Providers bid until they had enough then the price was fixed based on the most expensive source.

We also designated a windy chunk of government land next to my city to private wind energy. Besides land it needed a bit of subsidee to spin them up.

Big turbines happened that provide enough power to run the city.

Not that the city didn't have the money to do it themselves. Its dwellers could also easily afford it. That's just not how things work around here.

Mysterious actors blew up some pipeline some place in the north and the highest bit went up dramatically.

It didn't fail, people just couldn't pay their bills anymore.

The market was very good at increasing profit when demand was larger than supply.

One could imagine worse circumstances with a larger effect.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:20PM (#43015425)
> The market was very good at increasing profit when demand was larger than supply.

That's what it's supposed to do. Then in the absence of regulatory barriers to entry, new suppliers enter the market to capture those profits, until the profits aren't so big anymore because there are more suppliers.

One of the things that messes people up here is that they want consistency but don't want to pay for it. You have a competitive market which is providing low prices until there is a supply disruption. Then prices are temporarily high. If you wanted to you could have bought insurance or futures etc. so that you would always pay a consistent price, but then you'd be paying a higher price than the market on the days when supply is good so that you could pay a lower price when supply is low. People then complain about that too, but those are your options; if you pick the "don't buy insurance" one then you're exposed to events, but you should be the one who gets to choose.

And maybe if you're poor you don't want the insurance, what you want is to have the lower price most of the time and cut back your usage when the price is high. But either way, that should be something you get to decide instead of something somebody decides for you.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by econ on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @08:37PM (#43031824)
Yes, markets are suppose to kick you when you are down.

My gut says it is like needing for example a car. You could rent or lease or you could buy one in cash on on credit. Each choice makes sense to someone. If it is to be a collective choice/deal it should be cheaper and I see no reason why it can't offer the same options. We have this weird tendency to shove all collective arrangements in governments boots where we know the outcome will be something stupid, turn into something ridiculous or both.

I really want to see gov processes strictly defined. Then we can have the government set up entirely independent bodies that strictly follow their charter. Ideally it pays no taxes, no one works there, no one owns it. I might even like blockchain for this purpose. We want 1234 new lease contracts for 2026, any company may bid, customers press accept. The one most accepted gets to provide the [proverbial] cars.

It seems doable.

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by specialist on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @11:47AM (#43027102)
> You can straightforwardly privatize things that can't be allowed to fail.

What are some examples of successfully privatized utilities?

Re:Northern California Cities Should Undercut PG&E Now by account42 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @04:57AM (#43010899)
Where are those mythical other places?