Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
Like for like compared to the same model with an ICE drivetrain? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all EVs are heavy. Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg.
Volskwagen ID.3 is 1740kg which I suppose is heavy, but a Diesel Golf 8 is nearly 1500kg, so the weight difference isn't that massive. And something like a Nissan Qashqai is 1700kg in a diesel, so if you swapped that for a new ID.3 you haven't bought a heavier car at all.
Compared to 997kg in en ICE version.
I do imagine that the thin tires they put on BMW i3s would last less. But for most people getting an EV now I can’t see how increased tire wear would be a practical problem.
And I do drive dynamically, let’s say. It’s just too fun not too.
Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank.
The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it.
I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
That means - total energy independence. I can get a solar roof and no longer need "the government" ie, a bunch of criminals, to "help" me.
Strangely this is never on the news. Ever. Go figure.
Possible but it would be highly inconvenient and people wouldn't like the consequences. At the very least we need referendums on all the big contentious issues.
The petroleum industry did just fine without government funding the building of gas stations. It took over 10 years from the introduction of the model T until gasoline outsold kerosene in this country. Not the best metric to compare against, just saying that these things take time.
The mainstreaming of EVs is coming. It's just taking more time than early adopters would like. Part of the problem is that many early adopters assumed that their EVs we're shiny and perfect like their Apple products, etc. So there's frustration that things aren't as glossy and simple as they'd like.
The market is working correctly. Demand for EVs isn't there. Give it time. Maybe a decade or two. And most cars will be EVs.
Is this because you actively want cars to be less efficient/more expensive/more cumborsome to use and maintain?
Which is a valid viewpoint, but your comment could be read as suggesting that this is somehow greener or cheaper tor simpler than BEVs, which it isn't.
For example, I'm assuming that the "better public transport" you envision is electric, and battery electric wherever that makes sense (which is in quite a lot of places, even trams with overhead lines in busy cities can benefit from batteries).
I'm still waiting to hear how the government plans to solve this or incentivize private investment for this setup to work. Because yeah, if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car, unless you literally have a Tesla and live right next to a supercharger(I know one person with that setup and it works fine for them, it's literally one 20 minute stop a week and they get enough charge to last them a week).
>>Most of my miles are done on long journeys.
Funnily enough, for that use case you should be ok-ish, as most motorway stops in the UK are now equipped with rapid chargers, so if you're just driving up and down the country you should be able to just charge when you stop for a break, and with modern EVs easily doing 200+ miles per charge this really shouldn't be an issue.
The other thing is - you are an outlier if most of your driving is done on long journeys. Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. If that's your setup, then EVs(and PHEVs to a large extent) are just a no brainer.
I assume that to be true in most places, however, one has to consider that even those people occasionally make long distance travels.
What happens if for whatever emergency I have drive 500 mi across the state, keep an ICE just in case? Hit the hay to wait for my car to recharge?
Uhm, you either rent a car locally if that's an option, or in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge and then do the other 250 miles. It would end up being marginally slower than in a normal car.
Also depends on the emergency, right - at 500 miles that's at least 10 hours of driving, it can't be that urgent. If someone is literally dying you'd get there faster in a normal car, I suppose - but somehow I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
>I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
>in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge
I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
> Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
No, it is not unreasonable or rare to do two long-distance trips a year. But what holds true for an emergency that requires you to drive 800km holds also true for a leisure or business trip where you can plan a little more beforehand.
> I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Of course not. You are looking at charging times for plugging in an extension cord from a household outlet (which in Europe is 220V AC at 16A, therefore ~3500W). It's like saying that refueling your 30t truck with a garden hose is taking really long. Well, duh!
The fast chargers you find on highways are usually DC chargers with varying specifications. IIRC, the smallest DC chargers you can find (at least in mainland Europe) are 500V at 125A, so ~62000W. These load your average car battery in less than an hour, IFF your car can do it (not all new ones can, so watch out). Really high-performance EV like Porsche Taycan or Tesla S can charge much faster, if the DC charger allows it. There are modells that go up to 240kW, which would charge a recent Tesla S with 100kWh battery in less than 30 minutes from empty to 100%.
This is goal post shifting, you said "emergencies". Vacation trips aren't emergencies. Tens of millions of us rent cars anyway for such trips since they involve flying.
>I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Did you seriously just use 2.3kW emergency home wall plug as your number for a stop vs 77-400 kW DC chargers (which are what are actually found at stops)? Or even a proper 7-22kW home charger? The very first hits I saw on Google for charging an iD.3 [0, 1] both showed the correct range of options, and other cars (including Teslas) are capable of handling more power. I'm curious how you arrived at the idea that owners were all accepting 1-2 days for each charge of an EV.
----
0: https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/volkswagen/2020/id-3
1: https://evbox.com/en/electric-cars/volkswagen/volkswagen-id3
https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/...
I didn't look at what editions of the Leaf support DC charging, but it's safe to expect that new electric cars will almost all support it, and that it will get easier (in the sense of finding and paying for it).
Personally I can't imagine an emergency where I need to travel 500 miles as fast as possible but I suppose I'd either fly, take a train, or rent an ICE car. I personally wouldn't invest in a dedicated emergency car because that would cost far more than the other three options.
One scenario I could imagine is an evacuation for wildfires or hurricanes, but often there is plenty of warning with those events. Having one gas car topped off during hurricane season is probably good safety if you live on the Gulf coast.
In the short term very thin flat cables are being tested. But this assumes you can park opposite your house.
Councils are happy to lease pavements to providers but it's not a lucrative proposition right now for 95% of UK streets, it's also victim to a negative feedback mechanism where home owners won't buy EVs because charging is hard which creates low demand
Councils can't solve it without investment, most likely it will solve itself when the majority of high income charging locations have been constructed. Most charging companies are operating on long-term investments leveraging debt. It's going to take years to solve, and that's without worrying about the grid infrastructure
I can go 290 miles at £0.016/mile when charging at home. At the (expensive) motorway services it's then £0.15/mile to rapid-charge. The unleaded at that services is £1.60/l so at 42 mpg (guess) it's about £0.17/mile. The EV version of my car is more expensive than petrol but it's not 2x. A petrol car is more expensive to run and fuel (in the UK, at least).
Is that from solar? Or some tariff granting 6p/kWH delivered?
As far as I know, the distribution has for a very, very long time been managed by a private, regulated monopoly utility.
> fixed charge
I pay the same fixed (daily) standing charge regardless of how much electricity I use. This is normal here. To include it in the calculations makes no sense.
I asked, because if I chose Octopus supply, my energy supply price per kWh would vary according to the supplier but the price per kWh for distribution would not. (And Octopus would naturally only quote the price that they are charging for the part of the total picture that they're involved with.)
It will take some time to be more widespread, but I think this and small 7kW stations here and there (like the ones from Source London) charging will be the technical solution.
As for how this will be incentives, I don't expect to see much until ICE are banned. 65% to 75% of households in the UK have off-street parking, that's more than enough for charging providers to get established and have different types of cost effective chargers. Once ICE are banned, then there will probably be incentives to cover dead zones. Unfortunately, that's usually how it goes and people living there are usually getting things last, like for broadband, 5G.
Pick a random terraced road in Bristol [1] or Birmingham [2] or London [3] or Norwich [4] and you'll find terraced house residents are not yet living without cars.
If our nation's goals require such people to live without cars, I would say we're a long way off - and we're not particularly moving in that direction either. Hell, the current government's plan for the next election is essentially the opposite.
[1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/JUVD3xy4qRuP78VP8 [2] https://maps.app.goo.gl/CGfDGEibG3zQij8MA [3] https://maps.app.goo.gl/TXZYFuuQC3aQiam56 [4] https://maps.app.goo.gl/srs27pyGuzobhp1V9
Not always a thing. Plenty of "dense" neighbourhoods have less-than-ideal transport systems. Few of even the most dense run 24/7 bus/train service. Not everyone works a 9-5 job near a bus station. Im in a dense area, in an apparment building beside the largest hospital. Bus service doesn't start until 6am, meaning it isnt an option for my work. Nearest passenger train is hundreds of miles away.
A modern minivan can get myself, 3 passengers and all their luggage from the bay area to LA without even stopping for gas. In the event that we start without a full tank, the gas stop in middle adds 150 seconds to the trip.
This simply isn't possible yet with an EV. I expect it will maybe happen someday, but not yet.
As for putting the most miles on long trips: Say I drive 10 miles a day to work and back, and I drive to LA only once a month. Hey presto, most of my driving miles are on the rare but long journey.
To me, an EV is a no-brainer, in fact I was test driving the Mercedes EV just yesterday. The only thing stopping me from getting one is that my ten-year-old car is still fine. Definitely not getting a new ICE, though.
I don't know where you got this number from - a new 7.2kW charger is £400, and I'm sure you can get it cheaper if you buy several hundred of them. They are hardly expensive devices now. Yes there's the cost of installation too - but 10k is an extremely unreasonable number.
Furthermore, if I did want to include such stops, why would I want to confine myself to the dingy dirty corner of some backwater Walmart parking lot?
With my high range ice car I can stop anywhere along the scenic way for as long or as short as I want.
You know that this is only a temporary condition, right?
>>why would I want to confine myself to the dingy dirty corner of some backwater Walmart parking lot?
I don't know, why would you? Are those the only charging options you have?
>>With my high range ice car I can stop anywhere along the scenic way for as long or as short as I want.
You can do that in an electric car too.
Most busy corridors like sf-LA have the well known charge stations full and backed up making the delay multiple times longer.
The point about stopping wherever is that my stops won't have to be near any out of the way chargers. Of course an EV can stop wherever, but it also requires a pilgramage to somewhere I never wanted to go.
Don't do it and health problems could quickly appear. Like back pain, herniated discs, at the very least. Not to mention the risk of drowsiness induced car accidents.
I don'l like to refuel in a busy gas station either, but stopping and stretching is recommended.
That's less than 15 minutes a month at a gas station. Still beats the pants off the 20 minutes each way for the ev on the long trip.
And let's say we do make bathroom stops (kids or whatever); why should the needs of the car dictate when and for how long we stop?
When I was a kid my dad would threaten to leave us behind if we took over 10 minutes dragging out a bathroom stop. I don't see any reason to tolerate a car that takes twice that long to recharge.
On a recent trip I did pull over for a bathroom stop at a gas station. The prices were too high (understandable, only option for many miles) so I didn't buy any gas. In and out, no time lost.
At no time do I want to park in the back of an economically depressed store to sit in my car for 20 minutes watching a crack head defecate in the next parking stall over. If I have time to stop, I want to stop at scenic overlooks and the like.
Look, all I'm saying is when EV charging (or battery swap, or whatever) gets to the turn around time of a gas station I'll be all over it.
Unless I'm dehydrated, no, I generally have to piss more often than every 6 hours, and it's unreasonable to ask a passenger to hold it that long unless they specifically say that can.
Perhaps mandated 50% charging places in every supermarket carpark?
I have a friend in this situation. He charges it at other places, although the council are apparently going to dig a small trench in the pavement (free of charge) to allow him to run a charging cable from his house to the car without disrupting foot traffic.
But that's still contingent on being able to park right outside his house, which is a rare luxury.
Supercharging in itself is easy enough too.
My EV has a big battery (given) but im charging publicly for nearly 2 years but my company already plans charging stations next year and other locations of my company already have them.
BP just order $100m of Tesla chargers.
QuickTrip (gas stations) around me have 2+ chargers.
Gas stations will need to have chargers to stay in business (and electrification will impact their business); With 5% electrification, gas stations have already lost ~5% of their business, if they can recoup 2% from people without high speed charging at home or for road trips, they can make up in margins (especially as a 20 min charge up is more likely to get a user in store than a 5 minute fill up)
Grocery chains, working locations, state parks, county parks have been incentivized to put chargers. So have local shopping centers.
But the majority of use cases at this point is - EVs are way better. City driving, less than 100 miles per day, which is what most people do in most countries, charge at home, etc.
I suspect people overestimate the frequency in which they drive 250 miles a day.
No.
The nice thing about fuel cars is you almost never need to think about range beyond the refueling visit to a gas station once every week or two. If you're going on an extended road trip, you know you could skip a dozen gas stations and still be fine.
I drove an EV before alongside a fuel car, and I constantly considered whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day or journey. The constant mental load, light as it was, is something I don't have to deal with driving fuel cars. Having ease of mind is priceless.
Maybe it has more to do with how much you need to drive each day?
If you’re putting in triple digits of miles every day, then you have a very different set of constraints compared to someone commuting up to 40 miles a day, which is the United States average.
OTOH, if the EV is at home, it's plugged in and is always sitting at 80% full. No load.
If that's your frequency of gas fillups, and you have a garage charger, the same is true for an EV. (If you lived in an apartment where you couldn't plug in regularly, perhaps not.)
So there I was, constantly considering whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day. It's a worry I can do without, and so batteries will need to see exponential improvements before I'll consider one over a good old fuel tank and an engine.
They might be saying "In an ideal world I'd drive a gas car, but the electric car is good enough where I'd rather not pay double." I don't think the person I was responding to was saying they "sucked", just that they had drawbacks.
California: 423970 km²
If anyone knows about it, I'd be interested to explore this further.
My understanding is that in some parts of Canada it's common to plug your currently petrol/diesel car into an electricity socket overnight to provide a low-level of heating (otherwise the car would be impossible to start in the morning) - is this level of heating insufficient for an EV?
Alternatively how much electricity would be wasted spending some power to keep batteries at a warm enough temperature to prevent performance degradation when charging? Are we talking a few percent or a double/tripling of power costs?
The problem is that driving EVs in the cold costs a lot more energy. I've got a Ford Mustang Mach E for about 2.5 years now. In the winter the range that Ford claims drops by about 30 to 35%. That is a lot of range that goes missing just because the temp drops below 5 degrees Celsius.
Luckily I'm the perfect EV candidate: my daily commute is less than 50% of the total range so I can drive 2 days to the office if needed. And I can charge both at home and at the office.
The main problem that I see is that people cannot charge at home. If you are dependent on fast chargers by the side of the road you are going to have a hard time. The downtime for fast-chargers is enormous: my personal guess would be that they do not reach the 90% uptime. Which is bizar problem to have because a fast-charger and remote monitoring of the charger condition should be a solved problem by now.
> The problem is that driving EVs in the cold costs a lot more energy. I've got a Ford Mustang Mach E
The Mach E delivers heat in the most inefficient way possible: resistive heat[0]. Modern EVs from other manufacturers use heat pumps, which are much more efficient. There's still some drop in winter range (like gas cars), but it's nowhere near 35% anymore.[1]
Ford's system is also Rube Goldberg[2]: they use a water-based PTC heater to warm a small isolated coolant loop (complete with its own separate reservoir!), and then run a pump to send it through a liquid-to-air heater core. Obviously done for commonality with an ICE heater core, but the unnecessary weight and complexity shows the compromises to shoehorn an electric drivetrain into a ICE (or even "flex") platform.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ejq7z4H6g&t=449
[1] https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-much-range-a-t...
If we look at the total energy consumption for driving in cold conditions, then moving the vehicle along the road needs in the ballpark a similar amount of energy as what is required to heat up the interior of the car to a reasonable temperature and keep it there - cars aren't (and probably can't be) as insulated as houses, so they need quite a lot of energy to stay so much warmer than the outside.
In an ICE, most that heating is done from waste heat of the engine. In an EV, that comes directly out of your range.
I don't think there is a car in production where the heating is coming not from the engine.
Of course there are some cars which do have a resistive heating, but which are those?
> heat pumping through AC
Uhm, the compressor runs from the engine so while the heat is not from it, it's still directly relies on availability of running engine.
Also don't forget that seat heaters are also resistive and most cars in cold climates have them.
I know it (or more like my bum) too damn well, though I didn't think about them in this case.
> small diesels like VW Polo
Makes sense, though as I understood, it's strictly auxiliary till the engine is heated aaaand maybe some additional heating at the parking lot with the engine turned off, though I would wary of this usage, it would drain even the extended battery fast.
Overall it's not quite what I had in my mind (think of space heaters), though yes, there are some parts which can operate independently from the engine, though it's not a primary function for them.
Thanks for the hint.
Kind of. Block heaters help warm the engine coolant which warms engine and the oil, making it less viscous and help it flow properly so that the battery doesn't need to work as hard to crank the engine. They're typically only 400w to 600w draw.
Modern full synthetic oil and a well maintained AGM battery makes it less necessary, it's just a little less wear on the engine overall over the long term. Most folks though don't spring for either since they're a bit more expensive then mineral oil and flooded lead acid batteries.
Skimming the Tesla forums, some said to estimate a drop in range of almost 1/3 in this extreme heat?
A lot of city infra just isn't set up for at-home charging in older cities, and it's a non-trivial retrofit.
Kia, Hyundai (same company I think) are well situated. As are BMW, Mercedes, and obviously Tesla.
But... Toyota? Nowhere to be seen, has some also-ran EVs in production. The old American carmakers - absent. VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing.
The biggest carmakers in the world have a vested interest in keeping EVs off the market for as long as possible.
Ford F-150 electric Lightning truck has production issues, but it exists. Same with the Cadillac LYRIQ. VW's ID.4 is also all-electric.
Tesla and the gigafactory has a head start on the critical component - batteries - but the rest of the industry has started to wake up.
Well I think they're the third EV manufacturer in the world for 2023. BYD is first (I guess mostly in China), Tesla second and Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat and some American brands I think) fourth.
Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes (didn't even know they made EVs but apparently they do) Toyota and the other brands I'm reading about in these comments are all much further down the charts, so I'm not sure what to think.
Maybe the American market is so different that most commenters here have a warped view of the actual EV market in the rest of the world
Total deliveries in 2022 (incomplete obviously, there are many other manufacturers): Toyota (10,483,024, including Daihatsu), Volkswagen Group (8,262,776), Stellantis (4,488,269), Hyundai (3,944,579), BMW (2,399,630), Mercedes (2,043,900), Tesla (1,313,851).
What do you mean?? There are loads of ID.3 and .4 about here.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/electric...
At €45k you're far from "basic" imho. Not so long ago you were into the premium car category at that price in Europe. In 2010 you could buy a new bmw 335i for that price... or in 2012 two new basic (for real this time) peugeot 308
Not sure about Europe but after the US tax credit on EVs our Niro cost about the same as say an Accord.
I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.
Marketshare growth is excellent.
Car manufacturers and government regulators bet the farm on mass EV adoption.
Current EVs and EV infrastructure haven't solved the range anxiety/charging issue yet. Suburban US, where most people own a garage, is an outlier.
Waiting 10-15 years for prolific street-level infrastructure to be built out doesn't solve the fact that there are unsold EVs on dealer lots today.
Of course, there are plenty of use cases where range anxiety simply isn't relevant. Ditto why marketshare is still growing and will likely continue to grow.
The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW.
I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars.
There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber.
American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all.
Situation report complete.
I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit.
$30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability.
For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
Even the shittiest EV you can get from Dacia is above most people budget, it does o-60mph in like 20 seconds and can't go faster than ~75mph
But alas, now people get into debt for TVs and smartphones, so what do I know, I must be a boomer!
Aside from low rates though I agree that there's not much point in getting a loan if you're able to comfortabely buy the car with cash, although many/most car buyers don't have that kind of financial flexibility.
There's literally nowhere I can legally drive at 75mph. I'm glad EVs are being more sensible about top speeds. My 40 minute daily commute has a top speed of 70mph and an average of just under 20! That's the reality of urban speed limits and heavy traffic where something like the Dacia might fit well. But I agree, it is under-powered and won't be a fun drive carrying even one person, let alone carrying five. The next generation should be more interesting.
I would buy an EV, I love those things. But between fitting a charger in the garage and getting a reasonably priced 2nd hand EV I would have to expend like $20+k. Which is much MUCH more than what I would save up in fuel through its lifespan. Not really happening unless I get some help from the government to purchase an EV and my town hall puts up some chargers near.
You solution is ideal and I don’t think you should change a thing. I’d love to see more personal car sharing, both electric and gas. Electric cars with a range over 200 is a big waste of battery that should go towards something else, like a bicycle.
Even my old car is the equivalent of 50 electric bicycles.
> ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities.
> an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable.
Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
It's not a species-ending threat (at least, to humans). That said, the realistic outlook for global warming is bad enough.
EV is a technology in transition. It will get there. It's getting there. It's not "there" yet for every use case.
Why? A large part isn't because of the technology, it's about population density. The countries that pollute the most also happen to have sub-par public transportation networks. Range anxiety isn't an issue when the default option for most people is light rail.
The solution is likely going to come down to: 1. Urban planning. Car friendly zoning, building codes, minimum parking requirements, and other regulations are starting be reversed in the US. It's already happened across most of the EU.
2. Switch to low emissions electricity generation. Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop.
3. EV adoption. My point above wasn't an argument against EVs as a technology, but a statement of fact that - as a technology in transition - it's not superior for all major use cases. This should change over the next couple of decades.
> Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop.
is not true, at least not regionally. In Massachusetts, for example, power is 20% of emissions while transportation is 37%.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-clean-energy...
What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc.
An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case.
The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips.
We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
it'll be parked on the street
Just open google maps, satellite view, and look into any major European city. Given the known ~70% urbanisation of the EU, it seems feasible. From my own, anecdotal experience, I would say way more than most cars are parked outside. Most of the times a block away. Some annoying times, much farther.
45-55% in most countries (France seems like an outlier), but even that is above 20%.
I'd guesstimate that the cars parked "american style" (in a private garage or on the driveway of the house) in Europe is < 10%. You really need to live in a small town or a village to find these setups.
I can see a lot of articles / comments on various portals where the authors are explaining how easy is to use EVs - you charge it in your own garage over night and then drive to office or to do groceries. I can't overstate how unusual use-case it is.
Most people where I live (Switzerland) would never consider using a car to get to work. We walk / cycle / take a bus, tram or train. Same with groceries. The cars are on the street, you use it maybe once every week or two, to go skiing, move something large or go for a longer trip. Average yearly distance per car is ~13'000 km (~8'000 miles). Using an EV is really a huge huge hassle.
Most car buyers have a different mindset. Your rationale doesn't resonate with them.
A good amount of them actually enjoy what you described as "garbage". They don't hear "loud" noises, they hear a pleasant sound.
But these people clinging to ICE because... so many bad reasons. Basically manufacturing consent.
Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
You mean traditional American automakers? I can see a few compelling electric cars from European manufacturers.
And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-(
I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner.
They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
That's... A lot of money for a car.
We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price.
If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs.
Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof).
So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :).
edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k.
Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853...
Background, FWIW :)
* We have a Honda Odyssey as the primary family vehicle for ourselves and our kids. It's a very nice, very practical, very large car. As a family car travelling with kids, we love it! You do feel a little ridiculous if you're driving somewhere as a lone driver though. Did I mention it's big?? :-)
* I work from home and my wife had a hybrid job so we got away with Minivan as the primary car, occasionally supported by my 20yo Subaru WRX
* However, our occasional second car is increasingly a rustbucket, as as my wife needs to go to work physically more, the 20yo WRX (manual gear etc) is less and less a viable option for us
* We bought a used car this summer, safetied, from people we are kinda-sorta connected through our network, and ended up being completely fleeced. After several mechanics review ended up writing off the entire car. Between that and other people's experiences and long searches, we are completely soured on used car market right now, at least here in Ontario, in terms of prices and reliability. It's insane.
* We need a cheap basic car for work commute and situations when we need to do two things at once. We are still paying monthly financing on the Oddyssey so our budget is limited. We don't necessarily need it to last forever but we need it to be basic and largely reliable and comfortable for next 5-8 years.
* We looked at Mitsubishi Mirage, which is currently the cheapest new car in Canada, but it had too many tradeoffs
* Kia Rio LX+ is the second cheapest car in Canada but is a significant step up. It drives fine, looks fine, comfortable, visibility is good (shockingly a rarity these days), roomy enough (I'm 189cm / 6'2"), has A/C and Carplay/Android Auto etc. Honestly not missing ANYthing I need for a basic, practical car.
* Massive bonus: great, great control scheme. I love the control scheme of Hyundai & Kia last few years. Reasonable buttons in reasonable places, reasonably well found without looking for them. SO MANY modern cars sacrifice usability for some perceived fashion/looks, and it's a massive turn off. Kia's controls are like a Nikon DSLR - sure they're somewhat "old fashioned", but they're based on all the usability lessons learned we have at our disposal. It works and works well. Thus endeth the sermon :->
* FWIW, In Canada at least, the availability of cars I personally like is dwindling. Manufacturers are doubling down on the large SUVs (ugh!), and subcompact hatchbacks (Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta etc) are completely disappearing. I understand it's even the last year for the Kia Rio, and I can't seem to find regular Golf/Rabbit (only GTI/R) either.
Depending on if your Hyundai 5-door is the Accent or Elantra GT, you might find the current Rio a very natural replacement :)
The other car we looked at is the Subaru Impreza or RS; that's the car we would've liked to get, especially given my old WRX, but given our usage patterns, paying $10k more was not a good value for us at this time.
Hope that helps!
After that’s rebates and “est. gas savings of $3,000 over 3 years”. So that’s $31,490. About 25% more than 25k.
Misleading on price does a disservice to potential buyers.
I included sales tax. Without that it's still $30,630, but I don't think it's fair to include government subsidies but exclude government taxes when determining the effective cost of the car.
Here's the breakdown:
Vehicle Price $38,990
Destination Fee 1,390
Order Fee 250
Sales Tax 3,555
Federal Tax Credit (7,500)
Calif Tax Credit (2,000)
Utility Rebate (500)
—————————
$34,185https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relev...
Prices range $53k - $65k CAD (prior to any fees / taxes etc), which would make the cheapest one 38k, in line with price you indicated.
Our incentive though is "up to $5k CAD" which is up to ~3,600USD rebate.
The model 3 is a great handling car - closest compare is a 2012ish BMW 335xi. It’s heavier and you can feel it in turns, but you can feel the low center of gravity, and the grip/acceleration curve compensates it out. For street use the tires grip and the car overall overpowers its weight. The suspension is good, really reminding me of the BMW. Note suspension is tuned like a BMW with surprisingly similar dampening but overall is not as mature as the 335xi was - on super bumpy roads the tires will stay in contact with the ground but you will feel the difference. The model 3 not going to be close to a Miata, but in its size class it’s a great time. I would totally buy one, and almost did; it always puts a smile on my face.
The model Y is not nearly as maneuverable, but the low center of gravity really helps in turns. It’s better than I expected from a CUV/SUV. Not in the same league as the model 3.
Tesla is really good about test drives - I’d highly recommend it. Even if you never buy one, it’s a solid experience.
Model 3, NIO, BYD, and to some extent VW and even the i3 or Zoe have much nicer handling. Their low center of gravity and perfect 50/50 weight distribution should actually give you more grip and stability than the equivalent gas burner.
The original post did not specify the EV they spoke about, and I disagreed with generic comment that "ICE drives like shit, EV drives awesome!".
This is not to claim EVs don't exist that handle well! "Sporty EVs exist" can be taken as a given I think. But so do ICE! :)
It has not been my personal experience that moderately priced EV (not "cheap EVs", as such a thing doesn't exist here in Canada), are particularly well handling for their class, for all the other pros and cons that they may have.
FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios.
Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius.
If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
We are in the era where the super cars I grew up with are handily lapped by a honda accord. Driving has never been better than right now.
Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars.
>than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today
I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes.
These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up.
Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.
An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
It's a shame that they're not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.