News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by crazygringo on Monday June 12, 2023 @12:10PM (#36295837)
This is just bananas to me that a browser would perform "super resolution" at all, much less by default.

Couldn't this wreak havoc on doing things like viewing medical images, inserting false detail that isn't there?

As well as on text in images, e.g. inventing a cleanly readable but hallucinated license plate number on a car, or financial figure, where the original is blurry?

Not only does this seem like a terribly dangerous idea, but I'm shocked that a legal review at Microsoft would ever have approved this in the first place.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by donmcronald on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:09PM (#36297006)
It’s crazy. I used Edge when it first switched to Chromium because it was a nice, clean Chrome alternative with working sync. Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

This “feature” is insane and it makes me concerned about what Windows might be doing in the background.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by IgorPartola on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:24PM (#36297312)
Reminder that MS owns GitHub, LinkedIn, and Mojang.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hospitalJail on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:48PM (#36297839)
>Mojang

The real danger. (almost unironically though)

I can switch OS, Office is almost obsolete with google + free stuff, their browser/software is terrible and never used, Github(yikes, well, git works..), LinkedIn(and nothing of value was lost).

So we really are at the whim of M$ when it comes to Github and Minecraft. Scary. But hey, I used to be obsessed with Nintendo games, and now people have Zelda clones so I don't need to pay games that are graded on the Nintendo Curve.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by edgyquant on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:12PM (#36298266)
There are no “Zelda clones” of compatible quality and intrigue.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by ProfessorLayton on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:47PM (#36298933)
Exactly. Nintendo spent many years developing a sequel to Breath of the Wild, when they certainly could've gone for a cheap cash grab, and instead released an extremely high quality followup to a beloved game.

Not only that, but they delayed release for a year to fix bugs and polish TotK [1]. They deliberately missed the holiday '22 window for this! No one else seems to care about their games as much as Nintendo in terms of product quality.

[1] https://www.gamingbible.com/news/tears-of-kingdom-delayed-fo...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Cloudef on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:39PM (#36303002)
Isnt ToTK just a BOTW DLC?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by NovaDudely on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:55AM (#36306061)
ToTK makes BotW look like like an early developer build. While the base of the map is the same, they expanded it WAY beyond anything reasonable for an expansion pack. They have an below ground map that is the same size as the rest of hyrule and it is basically done just as a bonus to the rest of the title.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Cloudef on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @06:51AM (#36308263)
The depths is just inverted version of the same overworld height map, copy-pasted enemies and reused items from BOTW. It's simply yet another collectahon with bunch of puzzle shrines with physics sandbox. Not zelda game in my book. At least it did not copy paste the same boss with different skin 3 times this time however.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by ycombobreaker on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:52AM (#36310245)
The use of "just" here is classic underestimation of complexity or investment required. Technologists everywhere face this negative language from customers and other laypeople, and I expect many readers understand from first hand experience how insulting it feels. Please don't "share" that negativity with other creative arts.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by mikae1 on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:55PM (#36297966)
Could you name some Zelda clones?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pxc on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:42PM (#36298851)
The best ones it feels like an insult to call clones, but Tunic is a very good one that comes to mind.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by blix on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:39PM (#36299756)
There is a little more to the series at this point than the 30 years old Link to the Past.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pxc on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:06PM (#36300177)
That game is still great. Show some respect!

More seriously, Tunic also draws upon newer Zelda titles as well as games outside the series. In addition, many 2D Zelda games have come out since the time of the SNES, not even counting re-releases like the recent remake of Link's Awakening.

Tunic doesn't just evoke Zelda aesthetically as a substitute for developing its own aesthetic! It's a loving homage to a series that absolutely materially inspired the core gameplay, too.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by blix on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:31PM (#36301464)
The cynic in me wants to argue that all post-SNES 2D Zelda games are in fact remakes of LttP :) I mean that as a good thing.

I haven't had a chance to really play Tunic yet, but I just get the feeling that calling it a Zelda clone is unfairly reductive to both. If Tunic and Okami are both Zelda clones, but not clones of each other, something needs reevaulation.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dmonitor on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:36PM (#36299700)
Tunic is nothing like Zelda, except that both characters wear green and swing a sword. It's really good in its own way, though.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pxc on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:02PM (#36300116)
It's a lot like the 2D titles, with elements added from the 3D ones, like the targeting system, stamina meter, and controls for raising the shield (not a thing in many 2D Zeldas). Plus, of course, it also introduces its own elements and gameplay elements from other series.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pie420 on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:01PM (#36300096)
Genshin Impact is basically a better version of BotW
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Shared404 on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:18PM (#36300378)
And is also Gacha is it not?

I'll take an up front cost any day over content gating/gambling/fomo.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by abeyer on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:27PM (#36303932)
But the lack of PvP or other strong competitive elements makes it still fun to play free as long as you're in it for the game & story and not for the collecting and minimaxing.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pie420 on Monday June 19, 2023 @12:43PM (#36393164)
It is, but you can play the 60 hour main story for free. I was surprised by how non-gatcha it was after hearing how bad it was.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by theduder99 on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:11PM (#36301189)
fenix rising is better than botw
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by jwitthuhn on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:07PM (#36301932)
Not terribly recent, but Darksiders from 2010 is pretty good. Haven't seen anything else really comparable.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hoten on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:15AM (#36306204)
Not a clone, but Zelda Classic is a custom game engine with about a thousand fan games created in it.

https://hoten.cc/blog/porting-zelda-classic-to-the-web/

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by 20after4 on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @05:35AM (#36307737)
https://veloren.net - not exactly a clone but it's pretty awesome (and free software)

"Veloren is a multiplayer voxel RPG written in Rust. It is inspired by games such as Cube World, Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft."

"Veloren is fully open-source, licensed under GPL 3. It uses original graphics, musics and other assets created by its community. Being contributor-driven, its development community and user community is one and the same: developers, players, artists and musicians come together to develop the game. "

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by highwaylights on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:18PM (#36298384)
> Zelda clones so I don’t don’t need to pay games that are graded on the Nintendo Curve.

Huh?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by fragmede on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:55PM (#36300962)
Corrected:

> Zelda clones so I don’t need to play games that are graded on the Nintendo Curve.

hospitalJail is saying there are similar games out there, and that they don't need to play games from Nintendo that are unfairly rated well just because they're from Nintendo, despite a former obsession with Nintendo.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by highwaylights on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:10PM (#36313354)
Ah, understand now.

If we’re querying review bias it becomes inherently subjective so probably not much point in discussing it beyond that even if I disagree.

I’m unsure of anyone producing games of a quality and polish level that rivals Nintendo, but that’s subjective too.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hospitalJail on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:41PM (#36314853)
>I’m unsure of anyone producing games of a quality and polish level that rivals Nintendo, but that’s subjective too.

like sub 20 FPS, empty worlds, 5 enemies with different skins(okay, factually there were 11 enemies, meanwhile MM had over 70 enemies), same story as the last 30 years, annoying combat mechanics, grindy crafting(food) mechanics.

But IGN said it was the greatest game of all time 10/10 and never mentioned a single issue. That is what happens when we grade on the Nintendo curve.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by 4BynHmBFUxBD on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:17PM (#36299438)
>Office is almost obsolete with google + free stuff

Google is also a privacy nightmare tho...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by MathMonkeyMan on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @03:15AM (#36322537)
I use LibreOffice. I'm the only person I know who does, but it works great. People are incensed when I send them ods files. "You expect me to install a program on my computer to view this file?" "No, you can use any spreadsheet program." "I don't want to do that. Why don't you just use Google sheets?"
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by marisnom on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:46PM (#36299844)
Minetest is surprisingly good it's a minecraft clone but also a sort of game engine like roblox but FOSS. It even has lots of mods, gamemodes, texturepacks, and servers to try out
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by indymike on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:56PM (#36304578)
> when it comes to Github

If MS did something super sketchy with Github, I suspect there would be an almost cambrian explosion of new tools to do with Github does.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by NovaDudely on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:59AM (#36306083)
It would be wise of them not to go against those that know how to build alternatives. Never under estimate the stubbornness of a programmer wronged.

Look at Richard Stallman, disliked proprietary software so much he spent his life fighting it even building large parts of an OS! Messing with Github would be like creating 100,000 Stallmans - and I don't think anyone wants that. ;)

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @04:44AM (#36323168)
GitHub as a tool is easily replaceable. GitHub as a platform where you can easily interact with countless projects is not. MS would have to really fuck up to negate the network effects.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by scrollaway on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:42PM (#36297723)
LinkedIn could never be trusted anyway :)

But I think all these different divisions just act radically different within microsoft. What is absolutely certain is that the Windows team cannot be trusted, as they have shown repeatedly.

GitHub has not broken my trust in them yet. I'm sure one day it'll happen; statistically it's more likely than not. But what's the point in pre-empting it, exactly?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by arcanemachiner on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:04PM (#36299231)
> But what's the point in pre-empting it, exactly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:43PM (#36302384)
Yep, LinkedIn was always bad. But I don't trust GitHub or Mojang to any greater degree. They're all Microsoft, and will burn you sooner or later.

> GitHub has not broken my trust in them yet.

I abandoned GitHub as soon as MS bought it, but I think my choice was a good one. If I hadn't, then I would have felt betrayed by the copilot stuff.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by zmmmmm on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:00PM (#36302578)
to layer on top of those: half the modern developer ecosystem via VSCode.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by EMM_386 on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:24PM (#36303909)
> half the modern developer ecosystem via VSCode

Granted, there is a reason it got to that place.

It's pretty good. Otherwise it wouldn't have the userbase it has.

How that was pulled off in Electron is insane to me.

They took HTML, JS (well, TS) and CSS and sprinkled in some WASM (I think?) and you get that?

The result of essentially a "web app" is impressive, gotta give 'em that. And they started on it 12 years ago.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Melting_Harps on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:26PM (#36297361)
> Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

Today?

Where were you when it's 'free' OS' was 'phoning home' or during it's behemoth days in the 90s-2000s when it forced the most pro-business Government (US) to essentially break it up when it was using it's monoploitic practices too far for even them?

I have to use Teams and just logically assume all of what was said or talked about exists on some server somewhere for the employer, LEO or intelengence agencies to retrieve; if Snowden has taught us anything is that M$ is the darling child of the Intelligence agencies in the US for a reason.

Using M$ outside of a (forced) work environment is literately like asking to be tracked, monitored of your own accord. Nothing they do should be presumed to be secure until proven a length to be otherwise. It's very likely why it's so bloated and runs terribly, they are optimizing no for UX but for it's real business model: spying.

Sadly, and with only a slight tinge of despondence: I've given up on preaching about FOSS to the masses, but with stuff like this it's like asking why people sign up for death cults, it alwasy ends in: Humans just being Humans.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by silverbax88 on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:43PM (#36297741)
I've been railing about all the spying Microsoft Teams is doing across corporate networks for the last year or so, to nothing but shrugs, 'I'm sure Microsoft isn't using our business data' or similar responses. People never learn.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pxc on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:48PM (#36298959)
We use Teams at work. We also use almost everything else Microsoft sells, which is probably the only reason we use Teams.

I suspect that the kind of company that uses Teams is just not very interested in critically evaluating Microsoft or competitors (relative to companies that are evaluating specific Microsoft products as one-offs). They're already bought into an ecosystem whose main strength as a collection of mediocre (or worse) software is that it is integrated with all the other mediocre software in the collection. If they don't 'trust Microsoft', where does that leave them? So they 'trust Microsoft', and that's the end of that.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by autoexec on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:18PM (#36299445)
Never mind teams, imagine what kind of data Office gives them. Every email, every word doc, and every excel document created by nearly every company on the globe much provide insane levels of insight into what a those companies are doing.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by silverbax88 on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:32PM (#36299648)
Teams takes all that data, plus all the conversations about it, including audio, IMs, web browsing, etc and creates reports tying it all together. Teams is the 'one ring to rule them all' that allows it to all be coordinated in context. It takes all of data that Microsoft can gather from other apps and weaponizes it into a competitive advantage against its own customers.

For example, if Bob at ABC Company is working on an MS Word doc, yes, Microsoft can steal that data. But it's worse when Teams is on a corporate network, because maybe Bob has a Teams meeting, pulls up the Word doc, discusses it with coworkers Sarah and Bill, and now Teams tracks the doc, the conversation, who was in the conversation and what the conversation was about. It tracks the email conversation that follows. All of this is proprietary information. Teams has handed Microsoft the internal working projects, context, thoughts and strategy of ABC Company.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by johnnykree on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:32PM (#36297517)
Please don’t give up praying about FOSS to the masses. It was a post like this that convinced me to try Linux Arch. I will never look back. I didn’t boot into my Windows drive for more than a month now. I just keep a bare installation for online games that don’t run on Linux. For now.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by intelVISA on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:37PM (#36297614)
It's a noble cause, congrats on freedom.

If you feel adventurous you can eventually transcend dual boot to a VFIO setup that helps to keep your bare metal protected from Windows entirely.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by highwaylights on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:23PM (#36298490)
It’s unfortunate, but there’s not really a FOSS alternative for a general purpose personal-use OS that comes close to Windows.

It completely owns that market. There’s macOS and iOS I guess, but they’re not generally available to install on third party equipment.

Linux, sadly, is just not at all a consumer OS and never became one. The security model alone is an unfixable disaster (and many have tried over the years).

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by belter on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:42PM (#36298850)
> The security model alone is an unfixable disaster (and many have tried over the years)

Surely you are talking about Windows... :-)

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by vorticalbox on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:03PM (#36300131)
Linux isn't any better. Take any Debian based os download a .deb and double click it.

It's executable by default, opens up in something like Eddie and just asks for a password.

Nothing about Linux is really more secure than windows other than the fact it is a small target.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by SR2Z on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:17PM (#36301275)
Knowing the root password for a machine is meant to grant you full control over that machine...

You literally just described an .exe or .msi.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by belter on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:29PM (#36301434)
You are aware that users are not privileged by default in Linux? While historically in Windows...at least until UAC and Windows 2008...

Not sure what the example proves. The simple fact you can compile your kernel, have a strong model with Linux SE, it's just another ballpark.

Besides the fundamental aspect that Microsoft are telemetry kleptomaniacs, one OS assumes the user machine does not belong to the user, and Microsoft knows better. Linux assumes it's your machine and nobody else.

You can have your own hardened and lighter Linux kernel, with less surface exposure, while with Windows you start with whatever version version of Cortana Microsoft would like to push that week on it's users...Plus all the other unnecessary components that create an almost infinite opportunity of attack vectors.

Naturally for Linux, the open source code, makes for a more transparent process, even if I don't subscribe to the idea that more eyes on the code, correlates directly to higher safety.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by ivlad on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:41PM (#36303026)
.deb is not executable. It’s an “ar” archive (see https://manpages.debian.org/buster/dpkg-dev/deb.5.en.html for more details) containing a few other archives - for files and metadata.

The fact that deb extension is associated with an application (I don’t know what Eddie is) does not make deb executable. It’s like Winzip opening a zip archive on double click in Windows: yes, the file is opened, but no untrusted code has been run (assuming, Winzip is installed already and is considered trusted).

Linux is more secure because it has a much smaller attach surface. Even from the kernel interaction perspective, the number of syscalls in Linux is much smaller than in Windows, they are in a way more primitive and easier to audit. But the biggest distinguisher is lack of DCE (or MS) RPC - in Windows it’s ubiquitous, available both locally and sometimes over the network with various ways to access it (named pipes over SMB, DCE over TCP/IP, even over NetBEUI, over HTTP in some cases) which makes it hard to secure (Windows firewall is very complex as a result). Finally, Windows Carrie’s enormous amount of legacy and Microsoft is not interested in fixing it (they would rather push you to “cloud”).

Combination of code complexity and large attack surface makes Windows less secure that competition (although Pottering seems to be working on fixing it).

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Aleklart on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:40PM (#36316868)
It is like self extracting winzip archive, because of maintainer scripts.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by efreak on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @11:59PM (#36336219)
Self extracting archives don't require scripts or other functionality to work. They have a decompressor built-in. This is why they're _self_-extracting and not just archives.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by highwaylights on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @12:32PM (#36328435)
- notarization, code signing and revocation

- sandboxing

- root of trust hardware encryption

None of the above can be enforced at a distribution level, and where these features are opt-in they’re significantly underdeveloped relative to Windows/macOS/ChromeOS as no-one is using them in significant numbers.

I’m not even sure you could find any amount of FOSS advocates to even get on board with notarization let alone get it implemented.

You could maybe enforce protected folders at the distribution level but I don’t know if anyone could really trust a feature like that if it wasn’t implemented in the kernel directly.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by jodrellblank on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:21PM (#36299493)
> is that M$

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22/m

21 years ago: "It is difficult enough already to engage Gabriel in a discussion of security or Digital Rights Management, and spelling Microsoft M-dollar sign is probably the best way I can think of to get your mail deleted. He might even have a rule that does it now, I haven't asked. When Ross Anderson penned his now famous Palladium FAQ, which reads somewhere between a toaster manual and grim speculative fiction, you will note that he never deploys the dollar sign, because he would like to be taken seriously."

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:25AM (#36323434)
People can come up with whatever reasons to ignore others that they want. That doesn't make those reasons reasonable, it just makes those people ignorant.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by unethical_ban on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:26PM (#36297349)
Vivaldi is my browser of choice due to sync, and because Firefox as much as I love it does not perform well when scrolling on mobile.

Of course, Firefox has sync as well.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by johnnykree on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:35PM (#36297577)
Firefox is my favorite browser. Not because I like it more than other browsers. But I think it is very important that there is not just a single browser engine on the market. Chromium has too much market share. And although it is open source google dictated what features get in. We shouldn’t trust one company with that much power.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by basq on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:35PM (#36298705)
I've been using FF more lately because it has a functioning ad block. Mobile web has become borderline unusable with the amount of ads that get shoved in your face. It's not enough to take up 90% of the screen, it has to pop up autoplay videos with audio over that last 10%.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dmvdoug on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:57PM (#36301807)
Preach. Using my iPhone, I clicked on an HN link to Tom’s Hardware earlier today. Readable text occupied less than 1/4 of the screen. Everything else was taken by various banners, modals, etc. I tried to scroll down a little. It jumped back to the top of the page every time I tried, then started reloading itself. So, in sum, I read one(ish?) paragraph of a post before giving up.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kbenson on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:34PM (#36298686)
I don't have problems scrolling in Firefox mobile that I've noticed, and I don't run flagship phones (I'm running a few years old Galaxy A51). I do run uBlock on Firefox Mobile though, which I'm sure helps immensely, so maybe that's the main difference.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dhimes on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:54PM (#36299071)
I have no problems with FF mobile on iPhone.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by sangriafria on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:10PM (#36299333)
Any browser on iOS is forced to use the Safari rendering engine. Firefox on Android is very different to iOS
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pmontra on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:34PM (#36302269)
Yeah but I don't have any problem with Firefox on Android. I'm typing this on a Samsung A40.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by midoridensha on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @03:21AM (#36306751)
That's an Apple problem. The solution is simple: don't use Apple.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by unethical_ban on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:36PM (#36299702)
I have a late model samsung and browsing a news site like NYTimes works better with Vivaldi than with FF. FF seems to stutter if I scroll quickly, as if getting "snagged". Maybe Vivaldi is preloading resource vs. FF trying to load stuff realtime while scrolling? I'm taking a wild guess.

It was annoying enough for me to make the switch.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by I_am_uncreative on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:08PM (#36301946)
Firefox has sync, but it's opt-in, not opt out. You have to login.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by computerfriend on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:53PM (#36304566)
Vivaldi is non-free closed source software.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by worrycue on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:59PM (#36298037)
I just had the Edge Desktop Search Bar show up on my desktop. It just appeared from nowhere. Didn't even know when it was "installed".

MS is getting really pushy. They probably see the GPT stuff as their ticket to beating Google in search so they are pushing it as hard as they can to get as many users as they can.

I just click "turn off". I don't trust LLMs - all their knowledge is learned from the unreliable internet then you add hallucinations on top of that.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by burnte on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:36PM (#36298726)
I got a laptop in from a user the other day, that shocked the hell out of me, that floating search bar thing. MS is downright creepy the way they slip things in.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by netsharc on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:52PM (#36300925)
With remote work it always fascinates me to see how many people leave the weather (& news) bar displayed next to the tray on the taskbar, this is something that came with a Windows 10 update. People really don't change defaults...

I was wondering if I could make a fake one, just add an appropriate icon and change its label to say something like 6000°C Nuclear Holocaust

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by LoganDark on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:43PM (#36302377)
> I was wondering if I could make a fake one, just add an appropriate icon and change its label to say something like 6000°C Nuclear Holocaust

Dude, if you ever make this, post it to HN. I'd install that on my computer in a heartbeat.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by 20after4 on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @05:19AM (#36307629)
And this is why windows is plagued with malware.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by LoganDark on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @05:39AM (#36307772)
not really.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by josephg on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:11PM (#36303281)
They make it very difficult to uninstall that crap. I set up a new windows 11 machine the other day. And then did the obligatory removal of the weather/news, cortana, and 15 other pieces of crap I don’t need or want. While I was doing that it was downloading updates and once the updates were installed, the weather/news thing was back.

The stories on there are so bad. Like, borderline conspiracy thinking / conservative media gossip rag stuff. I can’t believe Microsoft puts their company name behind the content that shows up. (Though I’m in Australia. Maybe the people in charge of that content have no idea how bad it is here).

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by andrensairr on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:25PM (#36303394)
I'm in Australia too, and just assumed that stuff was the norm for the US.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:22PM (#36312529)
It's the norm in certain subcultures in the US, but it would be incorrect to say it's the norm in the US as a whole.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by EMM_386 on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:18PM (#36303856)
> With remote work it always fascinates me to see how many people leave the weather (& news) bar displayed next to the tray on the taskbar

I leave it there and I've been a SWE for over 20 years.

I just like seeing what the temperture is at the moment. So I know how to dress if I was dare to go outside.

The news being part of it though, on HOVER, is a nightmare. They need to stop that ASAP.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by agret on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:46PM (#36304074)
Just have to right click the task bar and change the news settings to 'reduce updates' & turn off open on hover.

Turning on 'reduce updates' just has the taskbar display the weather and not change to some random stock ticker of a company you don't care about or whatever other item of interest they feel like showing.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by NovaDudely on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:13PM (#36304700)
Defaults are incredibly powerful. For us on here, we expect to have control and to be able to manipulate these things. For most people a computer is just an appliance like a washing machine. Accept it as it comes!
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by II2II on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:38PM (#36304890)
While I appreciate the ability to configure software, I also believe that software that requires too much configuration is poorly suited for my needs and will replace it with something better suited to my needs. There is an incredible number of options out there. We do not have to put up with the nonsense that overbearing businesses subject us to.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:25PM (#36312608)
> There is an incredible number of options out there. We do not have to put up with the nonsense that overbearing businesses subject us to.

How true that is depends on the type of software. Web browsers, for instance, don't have an incredible number of meaningfully different options. I can no longer find one that sufficiently meets my needs at all.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by heavyset_go on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:37AM (#36305388)
Those widgets randomly come back after updates for me, along with ads in the start menu, even if you spent time removing them.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hutzlibu on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:15AM (#36306206)
"People really don't change defaults..."

Because they are scared of breaking things.

Also, most people actually do change defaults: style and theme.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by midasuni on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:59AM (#36306560)
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hutzlibu on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @08:37AM (#36309350)
Your links talk only about technical standards. But have you ever looked at a normal persons phone/desktop?

They are usually quite colorful and this is not the standard.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by AJ007 on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:00PM (#36299179)
I saw that pop up on one of my parent's computers. The hardware is old enough that it didn't want to install Windows 11, but Microsoft still managed to push that shit. Within an hour I wiped the drive of Windows.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by ocbyc on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:56AM (#36305553)
You have multiple parents or they have multiple computers?

What did you replace Windows with?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hutzlibu on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:18AM (#36306228)
"What did you replace Windows with?"

Haiku probably ... s/

The only real alternative option with most hardware is linux. And when the use case is browsing the internet and you are there to help them unstuck a broken update, things should be fine.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by froggit on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @03:51AM (#36322807)
Grammatically, the location of the apostrophe makes parent singular. However, it seems weird if I think of it that way, likely because pronunciation as a whole is the same regardless of parent being singular or plural. Computers is plural regardless. This really doesn't effect me ib any way, but somehow seeing someone else want to know makes me want to know.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by petepete on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:46AM (#36307421)
Similar happened to my parents years ago. Windows 7, working perfectly. My mum kept seeing a popup asking "do you want to upgrade to Windows 10?" and every time (for months) clicked close.

Then, they changed the button layout and put a "install" button where the close button was, and she installed it without realising. Some bits of hardware weren't supported in Windows 10 and I had to go around and mess around with drivers, which I failed at.

So, she's been on Fedora since. Considering all she did on Windows was light browsing in Firefox and many hours of Pysol, she barely even noticed the switch.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by joseph_b on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:14PM (#36300304)
My parents used the search to find documents on the local system. Now it defaults to searching the interent. Event more insane is now the 'close' button location has a button that opens your search in the Edge browser, where my parents still try searching for local documents. Getting lost ... so many levels deep.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by juve1996 on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:25PM (#36302867)
Just happened to me this week, same thing. Out of nowhere. It also auto-signed me into Edge, when I never did it before in my life. It really is getting ridiculous now.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dboreham on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:59AM (#36306570)
It takes a good hour to turn off their default ad-laden, adhd-inducing home page. And then they turn it back on a few weeks later.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by mihaaly on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:08PM (#36298203)
Above the privacy concerns that MS captures your data that they can have their hands on quick and loose and the way they please their terrible record of ruining long living basic functions is a second reson not to go for laptops with Windows, not trusting it for reliabile functionality and handling any private data of mine. Having a completely isolated separate computer for company data on Windows that belongs to the company - they seem to feel easy about handing over all confidential data to them to store and manage, so I do not need to worry there.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bboygravity on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:35PM (#36298711)
Lol, explain this to the average European/global business.

They pay for "the service" to upload their trade secrets and literally everything to Microsft / the USA. OneDrive, SharePoint, Outlook, Teams, etc etc.

And then boast about their high level of "security". The naivity is unbelievable.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by tester756 on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:12PM (#36301207)
Is this naivety if they *trust* MS?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dizhn on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:24PM (#36301370)
But but they have a privacy policy. (Same people lose it when you even mention a similar service from Russia or China)
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by nottorp on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:37PM (#36298743)
> Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

You weren't around when they were threatening linux with patents and forcing OEMs to not deliver PCs without a Microsoft operating system preinstalled then?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kernal on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:48PM (#36298957)
Not only PC's. They tried to eliminate as many Android OEM's as possible by threating and launching patent litigation against them unless they paid up. The amount they demanded from each device was so ridiculous that you would have thought it was a payment to license the Android OS itself. Thugs will always be thugs.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by robertlagrant on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:04PM (#36300145)
Well, I remember they had the FAT patent, which each Android device needed. Was it more than that?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kernal on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:17PM (#36300351)
>The disclosure by MOFCOM on April 8, 2014 is a direct result of Microsoft’s acquisition of Nokia’s mobile handset unit as that deal required approval by the Anti-Monopoly Bureau of MOFCOM. The disclosed lists were part of the antitrust review.

>Of the two lists of Microsoft patents disclosed by MOFCOM2, one was a list of 310 patents which included 73 "standard-essential” patents (SEPs) for smartphones; 127 patents which are “implemented in Android”; and 110 “nonstandard-essential” patents and applications (non-SEPs). This list is referred to as Annex “B” by Microsoft.3 The second list is identical to the non-SEP set minus one issued patent, U.S. Patent No.7,111,039. This list is referred to as Annex “A”.

https://www.m-cam.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/patently_ob...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by robertlagrant on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:49PM (#36300873)
> With this disclosure, China may be attempting to counteract Microsoft’s chokehold on the smartphone market

This is a very strange statement!

But thanks - appreciate the link. Not sure how the "media player in the taskbar" got in there, but that's patents for you.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kernal on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:58PM (#36302543)
At the time Microsoft was strong-arming every Android OEM into paying royalty payments or else. Samsung paid more than a billion dollars to Microsoft in royalty payments for those questionable patents. I'd call that a chokehold.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-29505439

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by r00fus on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:49PM (#36298978)
See that’s on-brand with the cutthroat ruthless billG company. So not ideal, but not surprising either.

This is anti-customer and needlessly fraught with legal implications.

Of course it seems aligned with their hallucinations-enabled OpenAI investment.

How much of this is just attempts to feed GPT4?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by zokier on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:08PM (#36300201)
> See that’s on-brand with the cutthroat ruthless billG company

Tangential, but this made me reflect on how "good"/"nice" Ballmer, and Ballmer-era MS, was in a very relative sense. This is slightly startling considering how my mental image of either Ballmer or MS is not great. But now looking back it does feel like relentless anti-competitiveness lessened a bit during that era, and lot of good stuff happened then. Windows 7 probably will go down in history as the pinnacle of traditional desktop Windows, MS giving up on IE gave room for Firefox and (unfortunately also) Chrome, lot of previously proprietary stuff got documented and published (SMB and Office formats comes to mind), and there were some nice product developments.

In contrast Gates era Microsoft was very much characterized by strong-arm tactics and throwing their weight around. And now Nadella era feels very aggressive again, pushing the company forwards no matter what; in some ways maybe less vindictive and direct than Gates, but still definitely not nice.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by jacquesm on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:18PM (#36302072)
Ballmer was as bad as Gates (and seemed completely unhinged at times to boot), Nadella only looks good next to Ballmer but has done plenty of stuff that should have never ever happened.

All of them were present at MS when they pulled their 'millions of lines of code' bullshit in an attempt to kill Linux and harm FOSS.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by midoridensha on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:12AM (#36305193)
As a long-time Linux user, the Nadella era looks far better. Back in the earlier eras, MS was my clear and present enemy: they did a lot of stuff to me, personally, to make my life hard because I didn't want to use their software, and tried to force me to be their customer with various tactics.

These days, that's all gone. I don't feel any pressure to use Windows, and I don't see MS doing various legal shenanigans to try to destroy Linux. I'm able to do what I want and not worry about MS much at all. It's very different from the earlier eras that way.

Instead, the difference these days seems to be that MS is the enemy of its own customers (or should I say "users"?). If you use Windows, MS will make your life hard with all this built-in malware and advertising. But if you're like me and you simply don't use Windows, you never see this stuff, except when people complain about it on forums like this, or if you have the misfortune of having to deal with a relative's PC.

Personally, I like this new era much better. I'm able to easily opt out of MS's shenanigans by simply installing Linux. When other people gripe and complain about that stuff, it falls on deaf ears here. ("but but but... I need to play $game on my PC!!!") I feel the same way as when sports fans complain about how much they're getting raped by the media companies so they can follow their favorite team.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Animats on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:48AM (#36306460)
That's a good point. Almost everything you need to do works on Linux now.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Aleklart on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @04:30PM (#36316643)
It is probably extend era
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Dalewyn on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:25PM (#36302156)
Lot of people like to troll Ballmer for his "Developers! Developers! Developers!" act, but then again you can't really get any better than being developer centric and by consequence enthusiast, power users, and professional centric.

By contrast, Gates was "Embrace! Extend! Extinguish!" and Nadella is "Data! Data! Data!"

I miss Ballmer.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:40PM (#36302340)
I don't. All three of them were/are terrible. They just each have their own personality about it.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by 5e92cb50239222b on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:08AM (#36306152)
And yet under Nadella Windows is way more developer-centric than it ever was under previous leadership.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @11:55AM (#36312124)
But under Nadella, Microsoft is far more contemptuous of users than it ever was before.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pinewurst on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:29PM (#36302207)
I see the Nadella era rather as the triumph of PM culture, adapted/stolen from the seemingly more competitive Google and Facebook. It's all about demonstrating increased "engagement" and the ubiquitous A/B testing because new product deltas get you promoted. It's never about maintaining 'old' stuff or providing real value - only gimmicks to catch the eye of your half-wit leadership.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by midvar on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:39PM (#36304030)
If you're referring to Program Management and not Project Management... Microsoft actually created the "PM" role and popularized it.

"The PM role is unique to Microsoft and was actually created in response to developing software that is more usable and at the same time pushes the state of the art of technology. So when we talk about PM at Microsoft, we're talking from a perspective of creating and evolving the role over the lifetime of the PC industry."

https://web.eecs.umich.edu/~xwangsd/courses/w23/readings/PM%...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Nemo_bis on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:57PM (#36301005)
Also, Microsoft nowadays is very much in the business of mass surveillance. This "feature" prepares the ground for a future with client-side scanning and upload filters running all your "local" data and "private" communications through [PhotoDNA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA) and other spyware.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by NovaDudely on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:34PM (#36304859)
* GETS UP FROM CHAIR * Alright back to DOS it is...
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Tanoc on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:29AM (#36306307)
I wouldn't actually mind going back to DOS, like FreeDOS. Or even Windows 2000, with some updates for SSE, AVX, and other instructions. Operating systems have been getting in the way of the software that runs on top of them for over twenty years now and it's annoyingly become the norm.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by version_five on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:05PM (#36301913)
I use Microsoft products for business (though I'm trying to phase them out). I don't care that much about their competitive practices (from a business perspective) and there's even the upside of a pretty uniform productivity software/ file format ecosystem that makes communication easier.

Committing corporate espionage, which is what their software does now, on the other hand, makes me not want to use them at all. I have agreements with customers about protecting their data, how can I use software that steals everything I put into it and sends it to MS? This is a much bigger deal. (Although I agree you could argue their earlier anticompetitive practices gave them the monopoly that allows them to run their current criminal spying empire unchecked)

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by zmgsabst on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:56PM (#36303683)
You also cultured them into not respecting you:

Since you didn’t expect respect or decency before, their management culture doesn’t value that, and accordingly doesn’t treat you with it now.

After all, if you tolerated poor treatment before, why wouldn’t you now?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hutzlibu on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:22AM (#36306260)
Where did he tolerated poor treatment before?

Microsoft was always bad to competition, but not really to customers. (backward compatibility till eternity)

That changed a lot. Tracking and ads build into the OS? No thank you.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by belter on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:38PM (#36298754)
Install Office, use an App that tracks bandwidth use, uploads and downloads, PER app, and be amazed with how many MB/s of data Office sends to Microsoft.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dunham on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:27PM (#36299576)
Yeah, I switched to the web version of outlook when I noticed (via little snitch) that the desktop app was sending 100's of MB upstream. No idea why it'd need to send much of anything in that direction.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by trelane on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:37PM (#36299708)
> switched to the web version of outloo

I don't understand what you believe this gained you.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dizhn on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:24PM (#36301382)
It would decrease their bandwidth use, especially uploads. Much more efficient.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dunham on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:27PM (#36301408)
I think I was mainly upset that it was using a bunch of upstream bandwidth (if I remember right, it kept going while idle), possibly also didn't like the disk space that it was using for caching. Nothing important. Arguably a web application is more secure, since it can't read my disk, but that wasn't my concern.

At this point, I prefer the UI of the web app (I tried switching back), and since it is a PWA, it behaves like a normal application.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by RoyGBivCap on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:03PM (#36303742)
A web app can only do what the browser can do. A native app? All bets are off.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by CatWChainsaw on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:41PM (#36298821)
Rather naive to ignore Embrace/Extend/Extinguish, the dark patterns used to push Win10, the online account hassles, the practically buying-up of OpenAI...
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by zelifcam on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:01PM (#36299192)
> Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

Umm. Should someone tell them?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by fknorangesite on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:14PM (#36301231)
> Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

> This “feature” is insane and it makes me concerned about what Windows might be doing in the background.

Today? We've had almost forty years of being taught that Microsoft can't be trusted about what they're doing in the background.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by zeruch on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:54PM (#36301760)
"Microsoft can’t be trusted."

Never could be.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Dalewyn on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:21PM (#36302119)
>Today it’s obvious Microsoft can’t be trusted.

I trust Microsoft far more than I trust Google.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:49PM (#36302443)
I trust them both to exactly the same degree.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pkulak on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:11PM (#36303280)
What's crazy is that people are still surprised every. single. time. Microsoft does something like this. It's been 30 years, folks.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by NovaDudely on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:51AM (#36306021)
More like 40 years now! I have said ti for a very long time, Microsoft didn't innovate in technology, it innovated in sleazy business practices disguised as technology.

It is difficult to find some of the more awful practices nowadays but I was always amazed at just how far they would go, and a little impressed by the thinking, to undermine all opposition.

Microsoft is like an Alpaca, if they start getting friendly towards you, it means they are about to attack!

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by TowerTall on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @03:10AM (#36306646)
I was also an edge user until a few month ago. I have Lenovo X1 Yoga that has had severe overheating problems since I bought it a year ago. Lenovo has been very helpful but unable to resolve the issue. They have changed the mainboard twice.

Then I switch to brave instead of edge and now I don't have overheating issue anymore. When I start edge it won't take many minutes before the laptop gets burning hot.

I guess the bloat has exceeded what the highest spec'd, top of the line, Lenovo laptop can handle.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by leokennis on Monday June 12, 2023 @12:53PM (#36296663)
Reminds me of the issue where Xerox machines would replace some 9’s on your scanned documents with 0’s due to over enthusiastic compression.

https://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013/0802_xerox-workcentres...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by xingped on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:18PM (#36297191)
Holy cow, the implications of that story were terrifying! I can't believe it took 8yrs for someone to notice!
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by KennyBlanken on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:36PM (#36301528)
It's absolutely astounding that they weren't sued into the ground for that. Contracts, medications, engineering drawings, chemical formulae...
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by adhvaryu on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:04PM (#36301890)
Wow, I can't believe they shipped the product knowing this could happen and thought that putting 2 warnings in the software guidebook (who reads that?) would suffice. Maybe they only added that in to avoid getting sued.

Also, reading the timeline was great.

> March 2015 The German Federal Office for Safety in Information Technology bans JBIG2 from being used for archival purposes.

Wonder if any other governments took notice as well.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by oynqr on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:16AM (#36305219)
I hope they didn't ban lossless JBIG2.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:29AM (#36323470)
Wouldn't be an unreasonable thing to do to prevent accidental use of lossy JBIG2. There are better lossless compression formats anyway.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by gtwomd on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:34PM (#36297545)
Only a matter of time until Ryan Gosling shows up in someone's X Ray[0]

[0] https://petapixel.com/2020/08/17/gigapixel-ai-accidentally-a...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by LeifCarrotson on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:41PM (#36299770)
Or before the images accompanying a comparison article between a Samsung Scene Optimizer moonshot and $4,800 Sony astrophotography rig become completely incomprehensible:

https://www.inverse.com/input/reviews/is-samsung-galaxy-s21-...

https://www.samsungmobilepress.com/feature-stories/how-samsu...

Don't want to bring too many Reddit memes over, but if the browser enhances the images on both sides of the comparison, and corporate wants you to identify the differences... what can you say but "they're the same picture"?

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by KennyBlanken on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:44PM (#36301619)
Just to be clear, Samsung was caught using basic pattern matching to detect the camera being pointed at the moon, triggering wholescale substitution with the image from the $4.5k camera. A redditor blurred an image of the moon, took a photo of the blurry image on their screen, and got the high-res image.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/23637401/samsung-fake-moo...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by f1shy on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:47PM (#36297806)
>> inventing a cleanly readable but hallucinated license plate number on a car, or financial figure,

This has already happened with copiers, which because of a bug in a compression algorithm, would randomly change figures when copying

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Drunk_Engineer on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:06PM (#36296937)
Sending medical images to Microsoft seems like a major HIPAA violation.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by brookst on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:42PM (#36297727)
It's sending URL's, and it's not clear if it is also sending cookies or other auth info. I would think / hope that any images covered by HIPAA would not be leakable by URL alone.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by partiallypro on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:07PM (#36299288)
Yeah, since it's sending the URLs, Microsoft couldn't get to the actual images in question because they'd in a private network, behind a login, etc. If the images are hosting on a public domain or IP, that is not on Microsoft.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Drunk_Engineer on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:39PM (#36299747)
Under HIPAA, any scrap of "individually identifiable health information" that can be used to connect online data with a patient cannot be sent to a third party without consent.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by sebosp on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:38PM (#36302317)
Just curious, how are images protected by login:password? The only way I know is htacess, which isn't really an easily scalable/usable feature... Many years ago, maybe 10 when I used Facebook I recall you could share a picture location with anybody regardless of login (i.e. Right click, copy image location, send over whatever), so the URL wouldn't be guessable or possible to predict, and the protection would be that you would get access to such url only when logged. I think in this context, the private network idea would only work if you are on vpn and you share urls that are only accesible vía vpn, is this a common setup for medical images? Is this expected? I wouldn't mind having a key or an image descrambler/decrypting/token but can't say the same about my grandma, my mother, my brother, my nephews...
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by tredre3 on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:19PM (#36304311)
Images are like any other web asset and can be protected either by the web server (htpasswd) or the application's logic.

I think you've been brainwashed by modern storage services (S3) where the URL is essentially always public and out of your control. It's trivial to password protect an image when it's on your server. I would assume any medical provider would protect their images by checking the session and not serve them via AWS.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by trompetenaccoun on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:55PM (#36305038)
You're right, although I would not assume anything when it comes to privacy, there are so many examples where companies did not follow best practice.

We need to move away from this model where others are in control of our private data to one where it's owned and controlled by us, giving access to service providers as needed.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by gloosx on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:25AM (#36305800)
Generally, no-one hosts public content on the S3. It is simply really expensive when it comes to outbound traffic. The content is usually cached and served by CDN, where you have full control over authentication and cross-origin rules.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bilalq on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:17PM (#36299434)
I don't know HIPAA specifics off-hand, but I would not be the least bit surprised if ephemeral pre-signed urls get generated for sharing HIPAA protected assets based on cookies/auth. If the URL is live for a time window and doesn't insta-expire on refresh, then it's conceivable that data gets leaked here.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by KennyBlanken on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:48PM (#36301678)
HIPAA requires "reasonable" measures. Hilariously, you can't chuck a drive full of plain text PII into a dumpster in the back of your building...

...unless there's a fence around it.

A lot of the nonsense around shredding hard drives is just the drive industry convincing people that they need to destroy perfectly good devices.

Unless you're facing state-level actors a simple zero-out or pipe from /dev/random will suffice. Or with a lot of modern drives where the data on the platter is encrypted by default, just send the "secure erase" command, causing the drive to roll over the controller's private key.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Dalewyn on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:14PM (#36302024)
>A lot of the nonsense around shredding hard drives is just the drive industry convincing people that they need to destroy perfectly good devices.

Unless you're willing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that each and every such hard drive does not in any shape or form contain sensitive information and pay hefty fines and jail time when you inevitably fail, the only nonsense here is you. It has been proven time and time again that data once written can be and will be recovered.

Any storage media that contains or contained sensitive information must be physically destroyed. That is the only surefire, foolproof way that we currently know of to securely and permanently delete sensitive information.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by KennyBlanken on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:25PM (#36303392)
> Unless you're willing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that each and every such hard drive does not in any shape or form contain sensitive information

I'm not sure which part of "HIPAA says you can take an UNENCRYPTED hard drive and toss it in a dumpster provided it has a fence around it" you didn't understand.

> Any storage media that contains or contained sensitive information must be physically destroyed.

Not for federal data:

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/specialpublications/nist.s...

Not for classified defense department data:

https://www.dami.army.pentagon.mil/site/IndustSec/docs/DoD%2...

...and as previously mentioned: not for PII healthcare data.

The bit about "you can only be SURE if you destroy it" is pure hard drive manufacturer nonsense.

Find me a single case where someone has recovered data from a non-solid state (hybrid or otherwise) drive or tape that has undergone a SMART secure erase or NIST / DoD compliant wipe.

In decades, I have never heard of such an incident.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by what-the-grump on Monday June 12, 2023 @10:12PM (#36304256)
Simple, I read a paper that vaccines cause autism... Now prove to me that you are not an elephant.

Now lets get purely logical. There is a non-zero chance of risk, and the best risk avoidance strategy is to not take the risk in the first place, so shred the drive.

So lets make a software, that would secure erase the drive and try to recover the data, and prove that you are not actually an elephant. But why?

Make a lot of money instead? Make a hard drive with a secure erase feature, and yes I know, but like put a spin on it, maybe a button, or better yet, you secure erase the drive backed by an industry grade non-recoverability warranty for a cheap $10/yr./drive subscription access to our secure erase service. We come to you next day, give a certificate and everything, you can put it in your HIPAA folder and show it to your risk committee.

Your market? Health care, gov, and problems that solely exist in between the keyboard and the screen.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Rediscover on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:35AM (#36310019)
Trivia: At the old AT&T (not at&t, the (mostly) mobile/cell company), it was standard to degausse the drive then drill through the middle of the radius and park a bolt there.

Bonus points if You had a spot welder to secure a nut to the bolt.

Fun times.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by abeyer on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:37PM (#36304012)
But given that our hardware is largely cheap and disposable, it's almost always cheaper to throw another device or 1000 on top of the shredder pile than it is to pay a tech to make sure every one of them has been zeroed.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by flangola7 on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:35PM (#36299678)
Hopefully no identifying info in the URL!
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Rapzid on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:53PM (#36300928)
If you put an image in a Google doc it will be accessible by the URL regardless of if you are logged in or not. Perhaps not in every case, but in the basic case I have tested this has been true.

Sharing the URL is equivalent to sharing the image in these cases.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by circuit10 on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:25PM (#36301391)
Discord is the same
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Terr_ on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:12PM (#36303285)
Even if the payload is inaccessible, consider the implications of leaking an URL like:

medical-intranet.example.com/uploads/secure_link/adc83b19e793491b1c6ea0fd8b46cd9f32e592fc/john_doe_1987-04-23_chlamydia_1.jpg

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dhx on Monday June 12, 2023 @11:43PM (#36304938)
And what prevents a distributed denial of service attack or fuzzing using Microsoft's infrastructure? If you were to trick many users into visiting a site with 1000 variants of:

  <img src="https://siteunderattack.com/api/computationally-expensive-function/?image=cute_bunnies_####.jpg"/>
or

  <img src="https://siteunderattack.com/api/function123/?name=Robert'); DROP TABLE students;--&image=cute_bunnies_####.jpg"/>
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kevincox on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @06:56AM (#36308302)
This is really no different than having the client do the request without the Microsoft proxy.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Melting_Harps on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:38PM (#36297648)
> Sending medical images to Microsoft seems like a major HIPAA violation.

Without sounding to condescending: Bro... this entire Industry still relies on using fax or snailmail for records. Using slow, leaky, non-private/seure channels for sensitive information is not as much of a concern to this field than one thinks if you've been in the belly of the beast.

Ask anyone who has spent anytime doing IT work at a hospital, or better yet a disgruntled nurse who works the counter after a 12 hour shift.

You ever try requesting an MRI in the US?

After needing several during COVID and being turned a way and having lots of time on my hands I've actually learned a hack to get it the same week (or in my case the same day recently) now that we're out of the pandemic because I knew who to press for a physical paper trail and get it submitted (via fax) and have it approved by all parties: it cost me a day off of work, and tons of leg work on the phone but it was done and I literately didn't care so long as it was done and prove my method was sound. I got it done after business hours, too!

I'm starting to think that the issue with it being so archaic is not because a better solution doesn't exist, but because it's made this way in order for them to justify the long delays in procedures and increase membership duration on their policies and they use things like HIPPA and other acts to justify the lengthy process and obscene amounts of money needed to be able to modify the way things are done, which is why software people just move on and the same mediocrity continues to the detriment of us all.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by voldacar on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:44PM (#36297762)
What specifically did you do to get an MRI quickly? Your personal doctor didn't want to give you one? Or the hospital/MRI place didn't want to give you one?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by f1shy on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:50PM (#36297877)
Waaaaait! In the US also the FAX is still a thing?! Seriously?! I have heard terrible stories from Germany and Japan, but did not know that also the US…
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by kube-system on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:14PM (#36301233)
The US has a zillion healthcare providers. Some are so huge and well resourced that they literally have $100 million+ digital record systems. Some are so tiny that it's one doctor operating out of an old house with pen and paper. A fax machine is the least common denominator.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by intelVISA on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:04PM (#36301893)
That fax is probably much more secure than the $100m system too...
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by JohnFen on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:54PM (#36302502)
> In the US also the FAX is still a thing?! Seriously?!

Yep. My current employer, as well as the two prior to this one, all have and use fax machines despite being tech companies. Not because they want to, but because so many other companies out there still require it.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by greedo on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:48PM (#36303084)
I work for an insurance company that for a long time didn't trust digital signatures. So we accepted docs from our agents via fax. They were there four decades ago, and they're still there (of course they're fax servers). They'll probably be there when I retire.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hospitalJail on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:52PM (#36297918)
Try talking to healthcare workers too. They think there is some magic about faxes.

>They are so fast(no they arent, something can be ahead of them)

>They are safe compared to email(literally anyone can walk by the fax and take it)

>They are faster than a phone call, because doctors don't pick up the phone. (What...)

You can mention the US government has ultra high security communication that uses the internet, you can mention the value of finance information, you can talk about the secrets your billion dollar company sends over email/web. But noooo, patient information is too sensitive and urgent to be sent over email/web....

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bombcar on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:51PM (#36299016)
To be fair to them, how many fax breaches have you heard about compared to email/website breaches?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hospitalJail on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:19PM (#36299467)
I know 3 people off the top of my head that have gotten in trouble for looking up people's health information because it was physically stored on premises.

All 3 still work in the medical field to this day, one of them is a doctor...

I imagine this is a huge issue in the medical field.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bombcar on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:39PM (#36299740)
Oh, definitely. Anyone in the medical field who says they've never gossiped about people's health issues is either a saint or bending the truth a bit.

But that's vastly different (though perhaps more invasive) than massive breaches like these: https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/cybersecurity-hacking-he...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by hospitalJail on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:06PM (#36300173)
On the bright side, at least you know if you are affected!

When an employee snoops, you will never know.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bombcar on Monday June 12, 2023 @07:36PM (#36302977)
But if you DID find out about the employee snooping you’d have a good chance at getting more than $5 and credit monitoring.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:47AM (#36323568)
You only know for the breaches that are a) detected and b) not shoved under the rug.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by SkyPuncher on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:34AM (#36305365)
Fax is still a magical thing in healthcare specifically because of how easy it is to use under HIPAA.

HIPAA has all of these crazy rules for anything digital, but the second you switch to good ol’ telephony the rules all become “there’s no rule because hacking a telephony system would be a federal crime.” I’m not joking. Telephony is considered a “mere conduit” while the internet is not.

It really is stupid. HIPAA has all of these controls, but phones are just fair game.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @06:04AM (#36323671)
It would be great if the US also considered internet to be a mere conduit and went after those messing with it. The we wouldn't need to break backwards compat for entirely static public content and waster energy in forcing everything under TLS.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by msla on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:22PM (#36298462)
Don't worry: If this all breaks, the fines levied on Microsoft won't be anywhere near their profits.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by RoyGBivCap on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:06PM (#36303773)
Maybe. Maybe not. I used to work in health insurance. HIPAA protected information is "Personally identifying information" (name, email, etc) plus a medical diagnosis, treatment, or cost of treatment.

It might be PII. It might be sensitive. But if it's not both of those, it's not HIPAA protected.

If you think about medical textbooks where there are pictures of patients and their maladies, but they are not identified this makes sense why both are required. Otherwise educating new doctors would be impossible.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by lynx23 on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:35PM (#36297554)
OCR in images is becoming the norm. It was a big relief on social media for blind and visually impaired people. Asking for manually created image descriptions and/or transcribed text was too much to ask from the social web. So ML found one of its first public use cases. Composite image description and OCR. And yes, the quality is bad. But nobody really cared about this, esp. not those offering the feature. Holy heartlessness basically says "it is for free, so be happy that we gave it away. If it fails, that is not our fault."
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Shared404 on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:46PM (#36300821)
> Asking for manually created image descriptions and/or transcribed text was too much to ask from the social web.

Mastodon at least has had a better culture about this in my experience. Possibly worth investigating, and it may have degraded over the last mass migrations.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by lynx23 on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:47AM (#36305470)
I should take a look at Mastodon one day. However, all of this talk of having to maintain your own instance and my very bad experience when looking at Google Plus (the most inaccessible social network ever put out by a large corporation) kind of myke me weary I am wasting my time. Besides, I mostly use FB as an event calendar. As long as someone doesn't mirror all the events announced in my area, I will likely not use it on a regular basis.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by mouse_ on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:10PM (#36297039)
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by dmvdoug on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:48PM (#36301680)
It’s hilarious that the prosecutor’s name there was Binger.

MICROSOFT!

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by Finnucane on Monday June 12, 2023 @12:30PM (#36296206)
Indeed, this sounds like a bad idea not just for the user but for the image host as well. If I post a picture, I post it the way I want it to be seen. I don't want the browser to arbitrarily reinterpret it.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by lynx23 on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:48PM (#36297841)
Well, that reminds me of autocorrection in web input fields, turned on automatically. Especially great if there is no proper language detection. You type a message into a text field, and Edge corrects every second word because you are typing in your native langauge, how dare you?! This is totally something I'd enable by default, because, you know, what is there except US and UK? Nah, nothing noteworthy... Ah, the joy. Internationalisation, no surprise its written i18n, it reflects the care and fucks given... Or Apple... I t took them 3 major iOS releases to have umlauts pronounced properly with their speech synth. Umlauts?! Who the fuck needs those?!
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by lesuorac on Monday June 12, 2023 @01:24PM (#36297334)
> e.g. inventing a cleanly readable but hallucinated license plate number on a car, or financial figure, where the original is blurry?

You can use enhanced images in trials.

In general, Courts rely on expert witnesses so if you can get one that says X method is applicable and used in that field then it's a go. It then becomes the other side's job to find an expert witness to say X actually has these flaws and is untrustable. i.e. the Court is not bothered by confidence intervals; if your profession makes decisions by flipping coins its admissible in court. The Court only cares if somebody is willing to certify it as true.

http://www.curtisreevestrial.com/files/1187.pdf

https://www.jonathanhak.com/2018/02/17/image-clarification-n...

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by russdill on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:01PM (#36303198)
Super resolution algorithms are not image enhancement.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by lesuorac on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @09:38AM (#36310069)
> [1]: Super-resolution imaging (SR) is a class of techniques that enhance (increase) the resolution of an imaging system.

It looks pretty clear to me that a Super Resolution Algorithm enhances images (aka Image Enhancement).

Although I think you missed the point of my post. As long as you can get an expert witness to certify the accurate you can use a technique in court.

Somebody else [2] linked the Rittenhouse case as an example as to this being disallowed but that's not what the Rittenhouse case shows. The Prosecution wanted to use pinch-to-zoom; the defense challenged that zooming wouldn't be an accurate representative; the Judge asked the Prosecution if/how they knew that zooming would be an accurate representation; the Prosecution admitted they had no idea how pinch-to-zoom works; the Judge (very reasonable) didn't allow an unknown method to be used in court. The lack of an expert witness to explain how Zooming wouldn't've changed the image was the problem.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-resolution_imaging

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36297039

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by russdill on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @11:50AM (#36312053)
You linked to an actual imaging technique called super-resolution imaging which is for imaging. It's a technique applied to the capture of an image, and cannot be applied to an already captured image.

Machine learning super resolution adds detail to image that does not exist, in the same way that image inpainting (or even outpainting) do.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/googl...

"It's important to note that the computed super-resolution image is not real. The added details—known as "hallucinations" in image processing jargon—are a best guess and nothing more."

If you go and research the literature on deep learning super resolution techniques, they also carefully use the term "hallucinate" as well.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.03749

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by AnonCoward42 on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:03PM (#36298113)
I think using some form of super resolution by default is not necessarily a bad idea given other upscaling techniques were deployed before and this is not so different. There are definitely scenarios where you want to avoid this, but these are few and far between.

Sending these images to Microsoft by default however is scummy.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pfffr on Monday June 12, 2023 @02:51PM (#36299001)
So anyone in the medical industry using microsift edge is violating HIPAA?
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by pfffr on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @12:34AM (#36305366)
Also, it seems like there may be some copyright implications as well? The more I think about this it really seems like Microsoft is opening itself to lots of liability issues with this policy.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by autoexec on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:28PM (#36299585)
I'm guessing they didn't put much thought into the "enhancement" aspect at all. They just needed some justification to collect lists of every image you view.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by TacticalCoder on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:13PM (#36300282)
> This is just bananas to me that a browser would perform "super resolution" at all, much less by default.

But it's really not the issue here.

They invented "super resolution" just as they could have used "ultra denoiser" or "elite acne spot remover" or whatever other bullshit term they think they could use to get away with to "explain" why they're sniffing pictures.

The goal is to send the images to Microsoft and nothing else.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by account42 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @05:33AM (#36323490)
All of these other "enhancements" would be just as unreasonable to apply to web images by default even if done entirely locally. Both the exfiltration and the non-standard rendering are issues here.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by jacquesm on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:16PM (#36302043)
> Couldn't this wreak havoc on doing things like viewing medical images

Regardless it would seem to me to be a HIPAA violation.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by raincole on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:25PM (#36303390)
I rememeber these was a video where a lawyer defended his defendant by line like: "when you zoom in the video, the algorithm makes up things so you can't use it as an evidence, your honor."

And he was mocked by the whole internet. Really showing how much an average person knows, isn't it.

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by heresie-dabord on Monday June 12, 2023 @08:44PM (#36303560)
Dear user, while you browse sites,

we browse your habits:

private data worth billions.

-- a privacy haiku

Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by bpiche on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @01:33AM (#36305853)
Same people who saw no legal problem with letting Tay/Zo into the wild. Or the Bing chatbot. All product launches that would have sunk any smaller company. They’re so big they believe they can just eat any legal challenge. Probably right too.
Re:Edge sends images you view online to Microsoft by quintussss on Tuesday June 13, 2023 @02:16AM (#36306212)
This reminds me of that one talk at a german hacker conference (CCC) about xerox printers inserting false numbers into scans