News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by gukov on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:08PM (#34131950)
The way I see it:

- Today's search engines will give you links to millions of documents

- ChatGPT, if asked correctly, will instead generate one perfect document based on millions of the documents

To me, that's a clear evolution of the search engine, especially with all the SEO & ad spam that's plaguing Google and others currently.

I wasn't ready to pay a monthly fee for an ad-free Google. I am ready to pay for something like ChatGPT.

Google has an issue on their hands and is probably working overtime to lobby the threat of ChatGPT away.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by WJW on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:21PM (#34132094)
What kills it for me (so far, perhaps they can fix it in the future) is that there is no way to know if you've actually asked ChatGPT correctly and it has given you a perfect document with the answer you seek, or if your question was slightly off and it has given a wrong answer, or even if your question was correct but it still confidently gives the wrong answer. It famously asserted numbers like 42 were prime early on, though that seems to have been fixed (although that may have been just through hardcoding).
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by RBerenguel on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:40PM (#34132245)
Or you have asked correctly (or not, that's hard to tell from the onset) and has given you a non-factual answer. For example, I asked ChatGPT for what would be the best introductory book for a subject (added some more conditions to make it pretty clear-cut). It recommended me a book that sounded reasonable in title, with existing authors in the field… but the book didn't exist, at all.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by boredemployee on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:59PM (#34132408)
Yes. It can even give name of research papers that never existed
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by sitkack on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:34PM (#34132694)
Research papers that probably should exist given the graph of knowledge that it has. I spent about 15 minutes searching for a non-existent paper (I knew this was probably the case when I started, by choice, by choice) and it turns out the title was a mashup of two other papers in the domain.

Same error a human might make if they read too many papers too quickly. Or went to a film festival and was asked to describe the plot(s) of the movies they watched.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by wombatpm on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:52PM (#34134713)
Or you could be getting Calvin’s dad kind of answers:

Calvin:how do they know the weight limit for a bridge?

Dad: they drive bigger and bigger trucks over it until it collapses, then they rebuild the bridge and put up the sign

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by krisoft on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:36PM (#34132214)
> It famously asserted numbers like 42 were prime early on

Oh it tried to convince me that four is not larger than one. :) It went like this:

At first I asked ChatGPT to summarise J.C. Owen’s contribution to geometric constraint solving. It gave me an answer which might be even correct. It sounded correct anyway. Then I have asked for a worked example of his method used on a toy geometric constraint system. It run into problems with that. Chiefly that the system is selected was under constrained.

When I asked about that it insisted that it is well constrained. It even volunteared the info that for a system to be well constrained it needs as many variables as constraint equations. Then it told me that the system it generated has 4 variables and 1 equation.

As a last question I asked if “Is four larger than 1?” and it resolved the seeming contradiction by telling me that in the context of geometric constraint solving four is not larger than one. One does learn a new thing every day. :)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by labster on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:38PM (#34132729)
In SQL, SELECT 'four' > 1; returns true as well.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dpkirchner on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:25PM (#34132128)
I wish ChatGPT would give you the score(s) of the results it returns, so you could understand how correct it "thinks" the response is. I wonder if those confidently wrong answers are also low scoring.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by permo-w on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:34PM (#34132200)
you could probably ask it
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dpkirchner on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:42PM (#34132260)
I'd considered that -- in some cases it says it's absolutely confident, like with basic arithmetic, and in others it says:

> Without more information, I cannot estimate the accuracy or reliability of these claims. It is important to note that there may be conflicting or inaccurate information available online, and it is always a good idea to verify information from multiple sources before accepting it as fact.

which seems pretty reasonable.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dragonwriter on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:23PM (#34133106)
You can ask it, and it may generate text with a score, but there is no particular reason that the score generated in the text would reflect any internal score it has.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by geoffreypoirier on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:47PM (#34132302)
I had a long requirements chat last night and did just that:

There are many self-hosted solutions that could potentially meet the requirements you have listed for your RSS aggregator and reader project. Here is a list of some popular options, ranked in order of their approximate percentage of compatibility with the features you have specified:

RSS Aggregator

| Percentage Score | URL |

| --- | --- |

| 90% | https://tt-rss.org/ |

| 85% | https://miniflux.app/ |

| 80% | https://newsboat.org/ |

| 75% | https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters |

| 70% | https://github.com/noahcoad/feeds |

| 65% | https://github.com/ssut/py-googlenews |

| 60% | https://git.gnome.org/browse/feedreader/ |

RSS Reader

| Percentage Score | URL |

| --- | --- |

| 90% | https://tt-rss.org/ |

| 85% | https://miniflux.app/ |

| 80% | https://newsboat.org/ |

| 75% | https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters |

| 70% | https://github.com/noahcoad/feeds |

| 65% | https://github.com/ssut/py-googlenews |

| 60% | https://git.gnome.org/browse/feedreader/ |

Please note that these percentages are approximate and are intended only as a rough guide. You may want to consider other factors such as the user interface, performance, security, and integration with other tools when choosing a solution for your project.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:05AM (#34136994)
These scores would mean nothing! At best it would score "how well does my answer fit to my model of the English language". At no point can the current architecture accurately grade "how correct is this answer in the context of the subject domain".
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by turmeric_root on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:41AM (#34138475)
The GPT-3 playground lets you view the probabilities of generated tokens. That's the closest thing to a confidence score you can get from a transformer model. But like the other person said, this isn't very meaningful.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by fragmede on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:19PM (#34132575)
To take your parenthetical further, I'm sure they'll get to that. It was only 5 years ago that searching Google for "how old is the Earth" said 6000 years because only the young Earth creationists put such a huge stake into SEO for their pages.

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/70mdfj/recently_go...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ycombobreaker on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:26PM (#34133129)
Google or any search engine provides links to relevant documents, whereas ChatGPT functions as a pure summary. Neither the search engine nor language model summary should be treated as authoritative, but at least a search engine cites its sources.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by layer8 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:23PM (#34132608)
It tried to convince me that one event can happen before another event even if the time of the event is after the time of the other event. It had a notion that events happen in some order, and that time is ordered, and that events are associated with times, but not that the two orders need to be consistent. And I wasn’t able to convince it otherwise.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:11AM (#34137029)
The way you describe your interaction is fundamentally flawed.

At no point was it trying to convince you of something.

At no point does it have any clue that "events occur in some order". Or that "time is ordered"...

At no point will you EVER be able to "convince it otherwise".

This is a language model. All it knows is that "in my training set, something said something akin to the two English words: 'ordered events'". It has no model of facts, deduction, or logic, as long as its results are a reasonable approximation of the English language as influenced by your prompt.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by layer8 on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:32PM (#34139740)
Yes, that‘s the conclusion I drew after a number of interactions. “It tried to convince me” was shorthand for that it persistently argued for that. I don’t attribute any actual agency to ChatGPT, of course.

The lack of self-reflection, of logical reasoning ability and associated memory is what makes ChatGPT useless for the use cases I’d actually find interesting.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by aqme28 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:51PM (#34134036)
This is a problem now, but I'm getting tired of these articles seeing a current limitation and acting as if that limitation will be the case forever. They'll iron out some wrinkles over time.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by anonytrary on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:01AM (#34136272)
1. Does Google inform you that you have asked a bad or unproductive question? 2. Does Google guarantee the links it provides you with contain high quality and relevant information? 3. Does Google ensure that the #1 link contains the correct answer?

I think we are forgetting that Google suffers from these problems too. A human who asks bad questions will continue to ask bad questions. AI should in general be trained to do what the human wants. If the human wants something stupid, that's on the human. Google also isn't guaranteed to find the right information you're looking for, especially if it is on an obscure topic or if the query is highly overloaded or being taken over by current trends.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:03AM (#34136979)
The crucial difference is that the Google search results page, by definition of it's function, cites every source.

GPT vomits up word soup. How should you expect to verify every factoid contained? As others have pointed out: if you ask GPT to cite its sources it will very happily, and authoritatively, spit back articles and authors that do not exist.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dilap on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:14PM (#34132019)
ChatGPT can give you websites, too, if you ask:

"What's a good social website for people of a technical bent"

It recommended: Reddit, Hacker News, Stack Exchange, Quora, LinkedIn, ResearchGate, GitHub

That's a pretty good list!

Tried the same search on Google, and the first result was some spammy site "15 top social networks," #1 being facebook. Not very useful.

I definitely think chatbots will replace many uses of search engines. It's already way more useful for lots of stuff for me.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by gukov on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:20PM (#34132079)
Another way to look at ChatGPT is it being a smart RSS reader. It's the way it discards all the WordPress layout junk giving you just the meat in a text format.

The biggest advantage Google currently has is their massive indexing ability. ChatGPT is oblivious to something that just happened (ie was posted) an hour ago, a day ago, heck, a month ago.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by williamtrask on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:19PM (#34132061)
It’s not that google can’t do this. It’s that the incentives prevent it. Chatbots may be worse because there’s a plausible way to only give you one answer and to really make it feel real.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by bg24 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:47PM (#34132812)
When the incentives are 70% of your revenue, very difficult to change track in 1-2 years.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by krisoft on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:25PM (#34132129)
Yeah, it is so obviously a usefull user interface pattern. The real question is if it can be made accurate.

I have asked chatGPT about my boss (a well published researcher) and it managed to summarise his work quite well, name the field he has worked in and even write about some of his previous projects. It also insisted on that he is already dead. Which made it very funny when I have shown it to him. :)

But funny doesn’t win one a trophy in information retrieval. Clearly it knows a lot about a lot of things, but the accuracy is hit and miss. Can this be fixed? Then this is the future. If it can’t, because this is a fundamental property of these systems then it won’t be a usefull replacement of search.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by williamtrask on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:46PM (#34133275)
I don't think accuracy matters as much as the ability to describe various opinions and attribute them to sources.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by forrest2 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:44PM (#34132276)
There is flywheel issue with generative search: content producers, information curators or outlets, etc need to get paid.

People are okay-ish with Google in part because it drives traffic and traffic can be profitable. Fancy features that snatch website content and show them in Google's result pages are already not appreciated by indexed websites.

If generative search becomes the dominant interface, we will eventually see severe public info stagnation until alternative business models can grow around it or avoid it altogether. I suspect we'll see more platforms like Spotify for X and a continued shift toward subscription platforms and youtube.

Of course, what's to stop the bots from watching all of Netflix, listening to every podcast, etc? It will be an interesting decade for law / regulation / licensing.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by notwokeno on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:12PM (#34132514)
People are going to continue to write books and documentation because AI don't replace those (new software won't be explained by AI so it needs documentation and AI hallucinates anyway so you still have to check it. Books are similar but more extreme.)

People will also continue to chat with each other in eg IRC because human connection is pleasant on a metaphysical level (AI cannot replace this) so you'll always have that as a data source.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:44PM (#34133648)
People will not write books and blogs if they can't pay the bills. If AI xant replace those, you will have no books and blogs. Thats how market works.

> People will also continue to chat with each other... so you'll always have that as a data source.

Your solution takes us back to before invention of the printing oress? the dark ages?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by stocknoob on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:18PM (#34133840)
People won’t just write encyclopedia articles for free, right?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by anticensor on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:26AM (#34134856)
Many Wikipedians write for free, indeed.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by notwokeno on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:06PM (#34133763)
Most good blogs are part of something else and don't exist for their own sake. If your theory about books were true than the web would have killed them. It turns out having a carefully reviewed hard copy of the information is valuable so people still buy them. I highly doubt AI will change that.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by EGreg on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:49PM (#34132322)
Why just public info stagnation? It will be dwarfed by believable content generated by swarms of internet bots.

Once a stable diffusion like open source GPT-3 appears, it will be used to create fake news all the time. Like imagine 70 different outlets all with relatively large clout on social networks suddenly announce that Elon Musk is running for president. Nevermind that he wasn’t born in the USA… somehow mysteriously none of them address it:

Yes it is here and it’s already being spread but that is just a tiny sliver of what will happen in the next 5 years: https://youtu.be/LSlv4AsChwg

Such stuff can be used to move markets, pump and dump assets and even start new wars!

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by forrest2 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:59PM (#34132414)
One could argue that what you're describing is one of those alternative business models. You don't care if someone comes to your page anymore for ads if the scraped page is the ad.

I'm sad about what I think the stable equilibrium looks like for internet vs AI, and I hope there are some platforms that are able to put in the good fight to keep the internet awesome.

The internet is such an amazing public good and has moved technology forward at such an insane pace. It'd be depressing to explain to my grandkids that you used to be able to learn anything on the internet without subscribing to the X platform or Y curated channel.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by brookst on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:22PM (#34132602)
What’s different about AI? People are cheap. Anyone who wants to do this can already do it just with mechanical Turk or just hiring writers in low income countries.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by doliveira on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:24PM (#34133108)
AI is orders of magnitude cheaper and faster, not to mention amoral.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by brookst on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:14AM (#34138225)
Disinformation is moral when created by people, because it costs more?

I’m new to this idea that something can be acceptable when done by people but unacceptable when automated. I don’t really see it.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by doliveira on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:35PM (#34140365)
Amoral, not immoral. I mean the AI won't make any moral judgement itself, and using it for whatever task doesn't carry additional moral implications other than those of the task itself, opposite to humans in which you have to care at least a little bit about what you're telling them to do.

About the task itself, it may be immoral by nature, and now it can be executed orders of magnitude faster and without the moral concerns concerting the workers themselves.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by im3w1l on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:17PM (#34134184)
If people consume content through AI assistant then it stands to reason that the content will be adapted for this mode of consumption. Content will be designed to have a certain effect on the AI assistant. Answer Engine Optimization. Articles full of likely prompt followed by desired answer.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by anothernewdude on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:53PM (#34132355)
I'll take the links many times over a generated document.

I can't buy from a storefront generated by ChatGPT. I can't cite a document written by ChatGPT, I can't trust news generated by ChatGPT, I can't comment on a forum generated by ChatGPT, I can't watch videos that ChatGPT describes, the recipes ChatGPT creates may not be possible to cook, and will probably still contain a fake life story before it.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by mrkramer on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:55PM (#34141756)
It seems like ChatGPT-like solution can supplement and assist the user in searching the Web not completely replace the search engine itself(at least not for now).
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:20PM (#34132583)
The problem with ChatGPT as a replacement for Google is that it was not designed to produce accurate facts, and it shows. This model cut its teeth writing articles about the discovery of unicorns in the Andes[0] for goodness sake! It's a language model, and a very impressive one at that, but language is used to express falsehoods and fiction just as regularly as it is used to express truth.

This doesn't mean that it can't produce accurate facts, most of the time it does! But when it does produce nonsense, it does it in exactly the same tone of authority, so if you don't already know the answer you may well walk away believing an AI hallucination.

And the trouble is it doesn't really matter if everyone here thinks "well, I would follow up each request with research to verify the answer", because most people won't! This is like the Google answer extracts, which fairly frequently mislead by extracting out-of-context quotes, except that there's no way to get the original context and there may in fact be no original context! This makes follow-up research much more complicated than with Google and therefore unlikely to happen. If ChatGPT replaces Google, the amount of nonsense on the internet will get even worse, which is something that until 2022 I never thought was possible.

[0] https://github.com/minimaxir/gpt-3-experiments/blob/master/e...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by MuffinFlavored on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:39PM (#34132745)
devils advocate, but Google wasn’t designed to make sure the links it aggregates at the top are accurate/isn’t just blog spam designed to cater to specialized SEO tricks
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:43PM (#34132784)
I agree that Google is terrible at its job and produces garbage most of the time. That's the only reason why an LLM chatbot is seen by anyone as a viable replacement.

But at the very least Google always gives you the source, which allows you to read it for yourself and judge its trustworthiness. No such option for ChatGPT.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tr3ntg on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:40PM (#34133237)
The highest placed links on Google are basically guaranteed to:

1) Not be the actual source of content 2) Not link to the original source

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:45AM (#34136181)
For most programming questions at least, the highest placed result links are StackOverflow answers related to your query (if any exist, of course). I would say this alone invalidates your "virtually guaranteed" claim.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dmix on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:13PM (#34133032)
> Google is terrible at its job and produces garbage most of the time

Are we using the same search engine? I use DuckDuckGo most of the time but Google is hardly terrible, even if it could be improved.

I find what I’m looking for in the top results 90-95% of the time. The other 5-10% also contains times where there simply isn’t a good link that solves what I’m looking for even after digging hard.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by imron on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:51PM (#34134035)
> Are we using the same search engine? I use DuckDuckGo most of the time

Then you are not using the same engine!

(I also use DDG and find its results superior to google).

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dmix on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:15PM (#34134170)
DDG is much more straight forward vs Google often tries too hard and fails.

It's like how Twitter's default feed changed to try to tell you what you wanted to see, while the old chronological feed was the content you originally asked to follow. The simpler feed was always better and less contentious for non-newbie/casual users.

Google is better at deciphering what you want, but DDG is straight up: here's the simplest results based on your query.

Maybe the solution is both? An evolution of the ML approach that Google uses (ala ChatGPT style mimicking a human) AND offering a tab, or box, or whatever interface, with 'simple' straightforward old-school search results. Until the former is better 99% of the time, they shouldn't abandon the latter.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by _huayra_ on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:47PM (#34133280)
I was pleased at first when I tried to use ChatGPT as a search engine. I asked something like "give me the top 5 blog posts to learn about C++ metaprogramming" and it actually spit out extremely plausible titles from top people (e.g. Dave Abrahams, Eric Niebler, Herb Sutter, etc), but when I said "no please give me the actual URLs", they were all 404.

If Microsoft somehow is able to implement the information synthesis (e.g. "give me an example of C++ metaprogramming, using Boost Hana") with actual indexed links from sources, that would probably be the one thing I'd see in the near-ish term that could upset the search engine balance of power.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by wanderingmind on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:42PM (#34133975)
ChatGPT gives me the urls when i asked a similar question for go programming. My guess is its an engineering integration in the nascent stages.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by imetatroll on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:02PM (#34133379)
I don't know if this is feasible or not, but having the chat bot also be able to respond with a subset of sources that it based its answer on would be a satisfying combination of both worlds I think.

I would be really curious to see how trying to learn a new subject via a chatbot that is able to also provide source material links would go.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dragonwriter on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:59PM (#34133718)
> I don’t know if this is feasible or not, but having the chat bot also be able to respond with a subset of sources that it based its answer on would be a satisfying combination of both worlds I think.

But an LLM doesn’t look at particular sources, find relevant ones, and write a response based on them, it is a mathematical summation of the way all of its sources look as sequences of text, and produces a response that based on that fits with its prompt. Identifying which sources most influence a response isn’t merely something that they don’t currently do, its information that, AFAIK, there is no plausible way to recover from the model.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by imetatroll on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:13AM (#34135744)
After I commented I did do a little bit of thinking about the little that I know about this subject and realized that it probably isn't feasible to extract that data. Thanks for the comment because... you are right as far as I know. It is a bit disappointing to realize this though.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by alisonatwork on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:21PM (#34133491)
I can't count the number of times I've clicked through to a link expecting to find more context than the excerpt on the search page and that content isn't there. Instead I get trapped in a sea of circular SEO spam that all promises to give me the answer I originally searched for but ends up leading me nowhere except to other article summaries with content I didn't even want to read about. Where's the source?

A good chunk of the remainder of the times I click through - especially on work-related stuff - it turns out the page is some kind of cribbed content from GitHub, StackOverflow and so forth, but mangled together and reskinned with different randomly-generated usernames making the "comments", so it seems like it's a different site, and you can only really tell by picking a specific sentence that appears unique and then manually searching for that same sentence on several different sites. No clear source there either.

Web search is broken, and it has been for several years now.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:43AM (#34136172)
> I can't count the number of times I've clicked through to a link expecting to find more context than the excerpt on the search page and that content isn't there.

Excellent: this quite quickly tells you that the search result was wrong. So you quickly got very relevant context and can tell at a glance that there is no source. You don't get any such context when GPT provides an invalid answer.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by jfoster on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:50PM (#34134026)
In the future, the source might be written by ChatGPT anyway.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by xiphias2 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:40PM (#34133622)
Actually it was designed for that, and it was top line OKR for a long time. Amit Signhal rewrote the search engine and was a great leader caring a lot about relevancy until he was kicked out for harassment (it was deserved as far as I know, but at the same time Google lost an amazing engineer).
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by aleeds on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:09PM (#34133786)
It is important to recontextuilize harassers. They are typically parasites on the organization, destroying others by stealing their work and eliminating others from the work force.

Undoubtedly he came off as clever, but being a harasser means that his achievements were outweighed by the benefits.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by post-it on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:28PM (#34133892)
It's dangerous to say

"he's a harasser => he must be a parasite on the organization"

because then you end up with

"he's provably an excellent worker and hugely productive => he can't be a harasser, you're mistaken/lying"

Some people are really smart and productive and a credit to their profession and also awful to women and/or minorities, and you'd never know if you didn't witness/experience it.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by gdy on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:54PM (#34145234)
"Some people are really smart and productive and a credit to their profession and also awful to women and/or minorities"

But if they are awful only to white straight males, they are ok?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by post-it on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:17PM (#34222327)
No
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by xiphias2 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:29PM (#34133896)
Recontextualizing harassment as stealing someone's work is not just inaccurate, it's degrading to harassment victims and not accepting that somebody can be a bad person in some situations (on offsite when he's drunk) and be an amazing engineer at the same time when he's sober at the workplace.

Harassment is harassment, stealing someone's work is stealing someone's work, let's keep changing the meaning of words to politicians.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by PhasmaFelis on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:41PM (#34134330)
I think it's a big mistake to assume that if someone is toxic, they must also be stupid/incompetent/generally useless, all evidence to the contrary. If nothing else, it will make you consistently underestimate some pretty dangerous people. It's important to know your enemy, especially their strengths.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by taskforcegemini on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @09:09AM (#34161093)
they aren't necessarily more or less competent, just don't mind also stealing credits from others to boost their ego, value, bank account or whatever
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by echelon on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:41PM (#34132766)
These are early days. Everything is going to move faster than you can keep up. You'll see head-turning headlines on a daily basis.

Next year will see AI begin to disrupt so many businesses you'd thought were absolutely impenetrable. I don't think anything is safe anymore.

By the end of the decade, I think even manufacturing and robotics will be automated. Everyone from McDonalds to Apple and Ford will feel the pressure.

I've got a mind-blowing demo coming out soon that will put even more fields on notice. And that's just my team. There are so many people working on AI-first products now. Incumbents will be overwhelmed and washed away.

(If ever there was a cue for a career change or opportunity to make a whole lot of money, it's this. Don't ignore this one! You're still early enough to take advantage.)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:45PM (#34132799)
I'm not questioning the AI revolution, I'm questioning the applicability of large generative language models to information retrieval. We need a different kind of model for that, not just a few tweaks here and there to this one.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by echelon on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:49PM (#34132832)
Given everything we've seen in the last year alone, I'd not gamble against that kind of model being just around the corner.

I can think up architectures I could draw on a napkin that could do this. Focused research teams will nail this.

It's coming.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:45AM (#34136877)
/r/iamverysmart
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by smiley1437 on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:08AM (#34134784)
>If ever there was a cue for a career change or opportunity to make a whole lot of money, it's this. Don't ignore this one! You're still early enough to take advantage.

Any suggestions on how to take advantage?

Dive into ML development?

Learn how to write prompts for AI engines?

Invest in AI companies? Sadly OpenAI is private, but Microsoft is a monetizing partner I guess (Copilot)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:48AM (#34136897)
I'd take a lot of this with a fairly large helping of salt. This poster obviously has a vested stake in this direction of technology working out.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by bulbosaur123 on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:42AM (#34136165)
> (If ever there was a cue for a career change or opportunity to make a whole lot of money, it's this. Don't ignore this one! You're still early enough to take advantage.)

Details?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by kosh2 on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:33AM (#34136453)
Well, there's one thing that humans are much better than robots for the forseeable future: Energy efficiency. Try building a robot that contains a general purpose AI and the motoric functions and sense as humans that runs on the energy of three meals.

Now of course humans want and need more than just 3 meals but still pretty good.

But if most of your work consist of interfacing with computers, you might be in trouble.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:25AM (#34137426)
Also, since humans aren’t slaves, they do their own maintenance. And they don’t do exactly what you ask, which is good (when they do it’s called “working to rule” and is a kind of strike).

It’s very rare for automation to cause unemployment to the point it possibly never happened.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by arcturus17 on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:17AM (#34137384)
> Next year will see AI begin to disrupt so many businesses you'd thought were absolutely impenetrable

Why, because of LLMs in particular? What is the ground-breaking research that will be fueling an AI revolution?

> There are so many people working on AI-first products now. Incumbents will be overwhelmed and washed away.

Incumbents like Google have been doing AI for ages. Microsoft has a very important investment in OpenAI

> By the end of the decade, I think even manufacturing and robotics will be automated. Everyone from McDonalds to Apple and Ford will feel the pressure.

McDonald's, Apple or Ford sell products, not manufacturing services. They will be delighted if manufacturing is automated.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by sillysaurusx on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:53PM (#34132883)
Neither was Wikipedia. But it works well enough.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:40PM (#34133617)
Wikipedia is designed to be as accurate as possible and is one of the few remaining website that produce value and content.

Please notice that in current setup of 'Internet capitalism' people that produce value and content earn nothing, and people that harvest that content for profit or engage in outright fraud make fortunes.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by solarkraft on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:14PM (#34133037)
I believe this to be a huge deal. In no time a huge part of the internet will be AI-generated and we will pollute our data set for research and training AI with things that are subtly or completely false at times and we won't be able to tell.

It's a lot like iRobot or other stories in which the robots will start to subtly misbehave, like a program you can't debug.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by cortesoft on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:33PM (#34133195)
How is this different than regular intelligence? We grow up trained on a polluted dataset, being taught things that are subtly or completely false, and we often struggle to tell which things we have learned are false.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:36PM (#34133596)
And what was the result of unchecked faulty learning on a corrupt dataset by natural intelligence?

Dark ages where millions died in pointless wars over who's imaginary diety is the true one. A third of europe dying of preventable plague. It took a rigorous system of citation and a publically funded system of education to crawl out of the drakness.

Should we try AI powred dark ages but with resource shortage and nuclear weapons?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by solarkraft on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:21PM (#34133856)
Once in a while somebody does some actual on-the-ground research and people are convinced to change their minds through evidence and reasoning. So far AI can't do that, it'll just parrot whatever it hears more often, (apparently) with some degree of randomness.

Maybe it'll learn to adopt a new view, but for now it won't be through actual reasoning.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:14AM (#34137368)
GPT has had up/downvotes for years. They were used to train ChatGPT. It’s not just “what’s the most likely answer”.

(The most likely answer is the letter “e”.)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by kosh2 on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:23AM (#34136393)
It is true but then again, we constantly ajust the trust in sources based on what works and what doesn't.

If I watch a youtube tutorial teaching me how to bake pizza and it comes out totally wrong and a watch another that produces exelent pizza, I disregard the first channel.

And there are many more ways where humans check the reputation of sources automatically.

GPT currently lacks this possibility.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by hasmanean on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:44PM (#34134679)
Well this is unfair because we haven’t given natural intelligence a chance yet.

What if we invented an algebraic notation for search indexing and allowed people to index and classify documents in their own way. Then a search engine could do something special with all that.

Human intelligence cannot progress without a notation to capture our thoughts in.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by fragmede on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:15AM (#34134808)
Are you aware of https://commoncrawl.org/ ?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Cypher on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:29PM (#34133155)
get the journals open source and add it as a module, although you'd have to strip out the unreproducible social science studies but that could be a good thing.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by solardev on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:49PM (#34133298)
What makes you think Google is good at finding facts?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lumost on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:07PM (#34133404)
Google links are notoriously inaccurate. Google was always great at finding relevant/clickable links- they never tried to direct you to factual links.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:31PM (#34133567)
> This is like the Google answer extracts, which fairly frequently mislead by extracting out-of-context quotes

My favourite Google extracts:

Q: Who invented Running

A: [random guy] invented running in 1865 when he tried to walk twice at the same time. It was an overnight success

Q: How much does a [model of a bycicle] weight?

A: 140 KG (Maximum weight of the rider)

Q: Define an english Person

A: A Cunt

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by thret on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:19PM (#34134200)
1/3 isn't bad.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by est on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:04PM (#34134113)
> The problem with ChatGPT as a replacement for Google is that it was not designed to produce accurate facts

But chat bots could be designed to do that, no?

Are there any siginificant technical barrier to prevent so?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:38AM (#34136149)
Yes: accruing a large and diverse enough training set where true and false facts are correctly labeled. The GPT models require enormous amounts of text to be trained on, so manually adding true/false labels to every part of every sentence is impossible (and automatically doing it would require exactly the AI we are trying to train).

A revolution in this area would require some entirely new training algorithm that can reach GPT-levels of fidelity while using magnitudes less training material. An even bigger GPT model trained on even more text is not going to do much in approaching a solution to this problem.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by darepublic on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:27PM (#34134242)
ChatGPT in its current form can't replace google but plausible to think in its next few incarnations it will get there. Why can't it have a mode where it returns more rigorous results, and includes some system of links as citation? It can include footnotes for various passages of it's answer to indicate ambiguity, varying levels of confidence, etc.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by enjoylife on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:59PM (#34134425)
This is the mental leap folks need to be making, the question is when will this type of configurably factual large language model be research benchmarked and productionized.

I have read many similar comments to the grandparent, all saying the same thing, “I tried it, and it turned up wrong facts” all the while they forgot that they were deeply engaged with the content it was producing. Just think of how much our attention is monetized already, money will be poring into this space from here on. It’s only a matter of time.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:43PM (#34134670)
My argument isn't that I tried it and it didn't work, my argument is that an LLM alone fundamentally cannot work for reliable information retrieval.

Producing hallucinations or not isn't just a setting you can tweak in the model. The entire function of GPT-3 is to guess the next word from the words that came before. It's a hallucination machine that has been trained on so much real-world data and has such a large parameter set that for commonly known and discussed information it does a remarkably good job at creating factual sentences. But as soon as you get out into territory that it doesn't have memorized, it will do the next best thing and produce credible-sounding new material that may or may not be complete nonsense. Again, this isn't a setting you can tune, it's just what a transformer does. It models human language, not all of human cognition.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:11AM (#34137354)
ChatGPT isn’t trained on next word prediction alone, it was trained on human feedback. The evaluation is next word search, but the model has evolved to give “correct” answers when evaluated that way. So it’s not just the most likely answer anymore.

Also, since we can watch the model evaluation and see all its weights, there’s research that shows you can determine if any answer is a “retrieval” of existing knowledge or a hallucination.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:09PM (#34134493)
For the same reason why it might produce a bogus answer: it's a language model, not a general AI. Prompt it for footnotes and it will generate footnotes for books that don't exist or that don't actually contain the citation. They'll match the form of a footnote, because that's what the model was trained to do, but the citations won't resolve.

For example, I asked who the first president of Argentina was. It gave the wrong name (Juan Manuel de Rosas) with a half-true bio. I then asked it for books where I can learn more about this person.

It produced five books. None of the book-author pairings were correct, though three of the books were real and four of the authors actually wrote books. Of the four authors that existed, three actually did write about Argentina's history, while one is a professor of Spanish and gender studies.

This is my point: ChatGPT was trained to produce text, not to produce facts. What I'm seeing here isn't just something that can be optimized away, it's fundamental to the model's design. It was basically told to produce text that looks like it could have been written on the internet. Its text is really convincing: when I saw the list of books I thought for a minute it had actually done it! But it's still just inventing text that reads well, because that's what its training was optimizing for.

It could be paired with a different system that searches for facts, but then it's just a friendly abstraction layer on top of Google or some other system, not a revolution in search.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by hasmanean on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:41PM (#34134659)
That makes sense. The only thing about gpt that impressed me was when I asked it to condense an answer into one sentence, it was able to do it.

Other than that it betrayed no understanding of the material. It rather resembled a high school kid who had read a few too many books and spouted platitudes about any and all subjects without being aware of what was really going on.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by bandrami on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:00AM (#34134754)
OTOH I could imagine a hybrid situation where the AI Bot searches Google for you and restates the millions of results Google gives it
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lolinder on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:15AM (#34134807)
I agree that a hybrid could work, although ChatGPT struggles to keep context with more than a dozen paragraphs, so I doubt it could summarize millions of results.

And in either case, you're not solving the problem that commenters here are trying to solve: Google's bad results will still affect your search, so ChatGPT will be fed largely by dubious blogspam.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by janalsncm on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:42AM (#34134948)
Even in a small number of paragraphs language models hallucinate. For example Barack Obama, it’s not hard for me to trick it into saying he was born in Chicago. He was not. But there’s a ton of text about Barack Obama in Chicago. Plus, Michelle was born there. When predicting the most likely next token for “Barack Obama was born in ______” there’s a lot of confounding text.

No, there’s a fundamental issue in that statistical language models don’t start with facts to form sentences, they form sentences based on previous tokens and statistical weights. The weights are not auditable or easily updatable.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by bandrami on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:31AM (#34135815)
And any kind of "tuning" of the weights to get better results is going to be so bespoke that you might as well just curate the response yourself
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:51AM (#34147524)
So LLM's are pretty much Mark V Shaney at heart, only with enough weights to get to the far side of Eliza?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by bandrami on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:32AM (#34135820)
Though for that matter a ChatGPT based product would be even more vulnerable to the same thing that made Google search suck: content sources gaming its process
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by SV_BubbleTime on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:13AM (#34134802)
This was my immediate thought as well. I don’t need millions of searches done, I need 20, then a language model to look through them and collect text that helps me find what I’m looking for.

The lucky thing for Google if they got it working, is they are half there already. As much as I despise Google, I have to admit GPT won’t be their death.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by mrkramer on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:43AM (#34137560)
Google already does this it is called Knowledge Graph[0].

[0] https://support.google.com/knowledgepanel/answer/9787176?hl=...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by amelius on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:11AM (#34137716)
> This is my point: ChatGPT was trained to produce text, not to produce facts.

That's only because it was trained on non-facts also.

But that holds for Google Search just as well ...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by lancesells on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:37AM (#34137895)
I think there's a difference in presentation.

Google Search gives you links to content that might have the answer (excluding their own box). You can see the differences between the authors of said content.

ChatGPT gives you content that looks like the answer. You can't see the authors of the generated content.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by amelius on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:49AM (#34137996)
Do you think that ChatGPT can't be trained to output links to sources?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by godelski on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:09PM (#34134494)
Because to make it focus on always producing accurate results (or rather a very low false positive rate) you need to dramatically change and tune the model. Which is much harder than what Google does because it means you'd also need to vet a lot of facts as well (by weighting certain sources, not individually). Or allowing it to search the internet (which also comes with other issues and if it is using Google to do that then it doesn't really kill Google). I do think Google's knowledge graph is more in line with what you're actually thinking. Lots of Google searches can be done without actually clicking links.

There's also the ethical question. For example, duckduckgo will show you stack overflow answers. Google could easily do this but they have already gotten flack for displaying answers and taking away clicks from sites, which means reduced ad revenue for the resource actually being used. We could make even stronger arguments about services like ChatGPT in their current form, let alone the one we're talking about.

If we think a bit further in the future there's another extension that might not be what we want. Suppose our model contains all current human knowledge and can accurately give you answers and even produce paragraphs at will. This kills off a lot of websites. Is this a good thing? Suppose we incorporate an image generator along similar lines and now we have text and image search. That's a huge centralization force. There are a lot of great benefits to this that I don't want to downplay, but we should also think about if this is actually what we want because there are downsides too.

I thought I should also add that I had an at length discussion of these LLMs being Stochastic Parrots (an how we know they are) in a thread from 2 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34113011

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by prox on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:17AM (#34135505)
What we want is not what we get unless it makes bank. Nobody (generalizing here) works to better humanity, they work to get money. if it aligns well that’s just shear luck. The world needs a lot more people who want see the world to succeed.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by godelski on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:23AM (#34135782)
I think this is a highly pessimistic view. While I know many that are profit motivated and I won't argue that this isn't the majority, I know many people that just want to pursue knowledge for the sake of knowledge. I'll tell you that personally my dream is to just be able to research and not worry about constraints like publishing (I'd rather open blog) or computational constraints (don't need a data center. A few dozen A100s is more than enough). There are a lot of people like me and a lot that would be like that if they didn't have financial constraints. Having this dream is a privilege and even I didn't have it when I was living paycheck to paycheck.

So I think if you want to see more people with my dream then push towards a post scarce world. We'll still have plenty of resource constraints, but it does change the game a lot. I think you'll see more artists as well. A new renaissance. But I fear the transitionary period might be quite difficult and disruptive. I do think such a future has a fairly good probability of happening within many of our lifetimes and almost guaranteed if we actively pushed for it (or solved adjacent problems like HLI).

So don't be so pessimistic. There's millions of people out there that are interested in pushing the bounds of human knowledge because that's what they want. I'd argue that physicists and mathematicians wouldn't exist if this weren't true. They get paid shit for extremely difficult work. We could say the same about many sciences. While not all of these people are in it for bettering humanity (just for pursuing knowledge) it often aligns and there is a decent portion who believe this is the point of science and our purpose, as humans, in life.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by prox on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:54PM (#34144908)
While I see what you are saying and there are people doing the good work, when I read of companies circumventing the Russian embargo knowing full well their stuff gets turned into weapons, and people without thought buying the cheapest shit from amazon and alibaba made in dire circumstances, I am not so sure, or at least, do not see enough awareness for a treshold changing outcome. Some play the economic game on a criminal level, and some profit without giving back and without scruples.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dragonwriter on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:19PM (#34134539)
> ChatGPT in its current form can’t replace google but plausible to think in its next few incarnations it will get there.

I don’t think it is.

> Why can’t it have a mode where it returns more rigorous results, and includes some system of links as citation?

Because it is a statistical text-generation model; connection of results to specific sources is fundamentally not part of the way it works, so it can’t just be asked to supply them. You’d need a fundamentally different approach to do that.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by singularity2001 on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:59AM (#34135414)
Contrary to all the naysayers I think a future version of GTP will be trained to evaluate its own certainty and express this verbally. Probably through an extra training channel.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by prox on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:14AM (#34135491)
It has no concept of certainty, unless it was embedded in the original data. What you are describing is an more general AI. This is a language model. I like to think of it of a cognitive intelligence: the ability to process input and compare it to a stunning array of trained data that will have many parallels to reality but has no concept of it.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by singularity2001 on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:13AM (#34136028)
It can be trained some form of trustfulness, and a measure of certainty is intrinsically part of the model (compare with image to text models etc "70% cheetah 10% dog")

In any case it can be trained to assert confidence via a side channel

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Nathanba on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:28PM (#34134254)
Google was not designed to give you accurate facts either, it was designed to calculate popularity of links based on backlinks and then show you the most referenced links first.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by joe_the_user on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:43PM (#34134342)
Absolutely this.

I just did a discussion with ChatGPT on intuitionistic logic and it gave answers that were subtly wrong in my understanding of the subject. I have an MA in math but I couldn't be sure whether my impression of its wrongness was correct until asked it for a reference and it gave a nonexistent book by Per Martin-Lof, "Intuitionistic Logic", along with a list of actual books by him. It's an impressive and scary bullshit generator at this point.

And if someone can find a reference to Intuitionistic Logic by Per Martin-Lof, Oxford University Press, 1982, well, I'm wrong. But I went through Wikipedia, Google, Worldcat and Google Books.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by elicksaur on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:13AM (#34134800)
No, you are probably right. It has no guardrails for generating a true citation. When you ask it for citations, its programming generates the form of citation. As the authors of the article discuss, it has no model of reality to understand that citations are not just a form of words and symbols put together.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by joe_the_user on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:54AM (#34135022)
Indeed and it gave several other actual citation with seemingly correct summaries.

And it's definitely less prone to obvious bs than just a few weeks ago. For a lot of general things, it gives a summary paragraph that's seems a distillation of standard information - the main problems seem to appear when these "scripts" lack consistency.

Edit: Once it "learns" to get citations right, you'll have to dig into those to see if it's right. It's easy to see that arms not looking good.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:26AM (#34136094)
> Once it "learns" to get citations right, you'll have to dig into those to see if it's right. It's easy to see that arms not looking good.

But that's fundamentally not possible for the model as is, not in the sense you would normally think of citations at least. If it were to give an honest answer on "why did you say that Obama was born in Chicago", the model would generate training set example with propositions like Obama was born in ____, ___ was born in Chicago, ____ was ____ in ____ and so on - because that is how it learns.

Instead, to generate what you would actually want as citations, it would have to have a way to look up the statement it just produced in a corpus of "citeable materials" and find the closest match, based on some entirely different ML model most likely (presumably something similar to Google's search algos).

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by vineyardmike on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:56AM (#34135399)
> As the authors of the article discuss, it has no model of reality to understand that citations are not just a form of words and symbols put together.

Which is the exact same issue that plagues it for the answer it’s generating a citation for.

I believe that it can be trained to improve this, and I believe it can be nearly solvable but I don’t believe it’s a solvable problem.

It can be trained to get facts mostly right using old-school academic tests and adversarial/supervised training, like an elementary school child. Today, it (supposedly?) punts math and some other logix to a separate function, and it just compiled the prompt. That can work for validating citations and “known facts” in many cases.

But again, it can’t “think” and understand when it returns something illogical (regardless of fact correctness).

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 317070 on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:40AM (#34135866)
The problem is mostly solved though. ChatGPT doesn't have the feature to cite its sources, but some other models do https://www.deepmind.com/blog/building-safer-dialogue-agents
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:22AM (#34136078)
I honestly doubt very much that a reinforcement learning based approach can scale to the breadth of facts that such a model would need to know about. Is there any reason that using a rewards-based approach to cover one set of facts would in any way generalize to a completely different area of expertise (say, rewards for true facts in mathematics generalizing to questions about literary criticism, or new world cultures), or would you have to include (manually curated) rewards for all areas?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dr_dshiv on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:11AM (#34135475)
It’s really good at showing what types of scientific books and papers should exist. GPT5 will just write them, so it isn’t lying.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by elicksaur on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:58AM (#34149208)
It has no concept of lying.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by dr_dshiv on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @07:56AM (#34160513)
GPT5 will.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by thordenmark on Sunday December 25, 2022 @10:48PM (#34134360)
It seems that at the current velocity of improvement it is only a matter of time - very near future - that those problems will be mostly worked out. ChatGPT already outperforms Google search in many ways. For example I was doing some research on Scandinavian history and found the results far superior on ChatGPT, while I had to sift through pages of junk on Google. I took the results with a grain of salt just like I would with Wikipedia and verified each point, and found it to be very accurate. With this I can cut my research time down from hours to minutes on a problem.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 55555 on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:26AM (#34134852)
1. Provide citations like you.com already does. 2. Add Trustrank/Trustflow into the training set
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by the_black_hand on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:42AM (#34134944)
RIP google. There's a joke that the best place to hide a murder is on page 2 of google search. The fact is GPT has at bare minimum parsed the top page of google and reasoned about the top results to give the best answer with as much context of why it reasoned so. GPT is basically a superset of google with added reasoning. I can't see it giving worse results than Google. Both will produce a bogus answer if you ask a bogus question, but GPT will never produce a bogus answer when google has the correct one.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by jchmrt on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:32AM (#34135825)
I think it's really problematic to use the word "reason" to describe what GPT does. As others have commented in this thread, GPT is a language model, which in no way reasons about anything it writes. It is simply writing whatever fits statistically to the prompt and context. Attributing reasoning or too much intelligence to this could prove quite dangerous.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:19AM (#34137395)
> As others have commented in this thread, GPT is a language model, which in no way reasons about anything it writes. It is simply writing whatever fits statistically to the prompt and context.

Those people are wrong; statistics are a kind of reasoning (intuition) and if you try it, it obviously does the other kinds of reasoning too. I have all kinds of answers from it that are logically coherent and can’t possibly have appeared on the internet already.

(Try asking it to write new SCP wiki entries.)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by jchmrt on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:17PM (#34141982)
Just because some of its answers are logically coherent due to it following statistical patterns, does not mean that the model is reasoning. Reasoning implies some type of discipline which prevents nonsensible arguments (even in uncommon situations).
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:25AM (#34148887)
No such thing as “is reasoning”, only “does reasoning”. Are you an unreasoning being if you make a math mistake?

You can see it “does” reasoning if you say “think step by step” after a question. It can attend over its steps then.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tsimionescu on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:34AM (#34136127)
> but GPT will never produce a bogus answer when google has the correct one.

What are you basing this assumption on? GPT can always generate a bogus answer, because its only notion of whether an answer is good or not is whether your prompt + that answer are statistically similar to text in its training corpus. The more text from the training corpus it resembles the better GPT will think the answer is. For more obscure topics, this means that the chances of it hallucinating based on similar sounding much more popular topics increases greatly.

This way of working also means that facts that appear more in the training corpus have a higher chance of being part of the model's outputs. For example, if the training corpus was not carefully curated to exclude vaccine conspiracy theories, there would be a good chance that the answer GPT gives to "autism is caused by ___" would be "vaccines", as this would likely be the most common answer in its training corpus. In contrast, Google's algorithms have more sophisticated biasing especially for these kinds of sensitive topics to ensure that more high-confidence sources are likelier to be top results, even if they are a minority of all the pages on the internet on that topic.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:22AM (#34137411)
> GPT can always generate a bogus answer, because its only notion of whether an answer is good or not is whether your prompt + that answer are statistically similar to text in its training corpus.

No, that is false. “Statistically similar” is doing a ton of work even for the original GPT model - as I said somewhere else, just printing the letter “e” is “statistically similar” to English text, if it can even be grammatically correct you should be surprised.

And it’s certainly not true for the last two generations (InstructGPT and ChatGPT) which weren’t trained with that objective at all but used human raters.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:52AM (#34136927)
This comment is based on such a large amount of BS. Reasoning over facts, as a concept, is completely divorced from the function of these GPT models.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by SillyUsername on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:24AM (#34135224)
I wasn't aware Google produces accurate facts. Cf. front page links to Wikipedia as an obvious counter.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by anonytrary on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:24AM (#34136086)
I don't think anyone who has played enough with ChatGPT is championing the notion that ChatGPT itself will replace Google. They are more so steel-manning the argument that Google might not be the best interface for search.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by creatonez on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:03AM (#34136982)
> This model cut its teeth writing articles about the discovery of unicorns in the Andes

This is a different model, called GPT-3, released in 2020. ChatGPT has the same number of neurons, but is trained with both human feedback and web data, rather than just web data like GPT-3.

What you're saying still holds up, though -- ChatGPT still hallucinates information.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by k__ on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:07AM (#34137009)
Isn't ChatGPT just a conversational interface for GPT-3?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by astrange on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:16AM (#34137378)
Yes, the human feedback model is called InstructGPT and has been the official “GPT-3” for some time now. ChatGPT is only somewhat more trained, but unlike the playground, it’s free and has a Markdown renderer.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by creatonez on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:12AM (#34215565)
No, it has different training, so entirely different neuron connection weights. They are very similar though.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by xbmcuser on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:38AM (#34137196)
Truthfully the internet is already full of crap a lot of it by design by different interest groups, countries spreading fud about other countries political parties doing the same for their opposition the web has become a cesspool. Majority of the people I personally assume at least 9 out 10 don't have capability or care to do the research to sift fact from fiction in the first place so this probably won't change anything. I have been trying to make it work for me and teach me some python scripting or creating regexes. If you question it correctly it outputs out something even if you might not be able to run the first time generally it works. I fed it 2 csv files/text asked it if it was possible to go convert 1 format to another got a python script that I was able to convert large number of files. Now scripting and programing might seem trivial to large parts of hackernews audience but it will be a huge change for people in general. From what I feel the AI keeps improving its answers is it being trained on the million of responses it get on the answers it gives.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by williamcotton on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:41AM (#34137210)
Search engines are not designed to produce accurate facts either.

Verification of facts requires direct experience through careful experimentation.

ChatGPT’s responses can either be verified or they are as unfalsifiable as any other confidently expounded conjecture found on your computer screen.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by epolanski on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:48AM (#34137584)
Chatgpt is is beta, we can safely assume the situation may change from now to 2024/2025.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Retric on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:53AM (#34137616)
Not at a fundamental level. Even if you exclusively trained one on some reasonably authoritative source like Wikipedia it would still happily tell you complete nonsense.

These models have no way to differentiate that elves are fictional while Indians actually exist.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by shaky-carrousel on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:55AM (#34137638)
Google was not designed to provide accurate results either, and it shows. I can find results to confirm every conspiracy theory I can think of. ChatGPT at least denies conspiracy theories.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by summerlight on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:11AM (#34137713)
In search results, you can at least evaluate how trustful the document is, based on various factors. This resembles how academia has evolved: you can dig into all the references, see the author's publication history and even their reputation. How would you do this with ChatGPT? We can't even verify the sources of its claim and it sometimes even makes up non-existent references in a very confident tone.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Valakas_ on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:40AM (#34147464)
I can't wait for a few years, when ChatGPT is replaced by something 10^x more powerful, and then comments like this look like nonsense of someone who lived in a past era just like we now similarly make fun of comments from people that made in past eras about how certain technologies, criticized in their current state without the ability of the person to look ahead. Even though the person you're replying to mentioned ChatGPT, ChatGPT is just the FIRST of many. Imagine somebody saying in 1803 "Car is unusable because you have to keep filling the coal, it's just not convenient, and a horse will always have a future."
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by accurrent on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:51PM (#34132852)
One of the use cases I have for google is just as a sort of fuzzy grep. This is often useful for finding solutions to obscure bug reports on open source projects. Similarly, I often use google to search for things like flights, reviews, business operating hours, weather and hotels. This is entirely diffrent from chatGPT. I think viewing both as competitors to each other is weird.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Julesman on Sunday December 25, 2022 @06:57PM (#34132912)
Entirely agree. I find this article a bit premature in it's confidence. And it seems to counter the one thing everyone who uses it is saying, which is that getting one best answer (which you can confirm as necessary) by software that has some sense of what your are asking for is just faster.

As in, it would be faster for me to look something up on GhatGPT and confirm it with a Google search than just starting with a google search.

And then how inevitable is an AI product from Google, et al?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by wolpoli on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:40PM (#34133236)
> Today's search engines will give you links to millions of documents

Today's search engines will give you 500 results per query.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by tmpburning on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:46PM (#34133276)
> I am ready to pay for something like ChatGPT.

they put too many restrictions on which answers ChatGPT is allowed to give though...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:50PM (#34133679)
Maybe they didnt want another nazi chatbot headline

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microsoft-shuts-down-ai-chatbot...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 22289d on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:50PM (#34133302)
> ChatGPT, if asked correctly, will instead generate one perfect document based on millions of the documents

Not yet. Today, ChatGPT is bad with facts. Don't rely on what it tells you.

But that appears to be the future. And it sounds great.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by scarface74 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @07:57PM (#34133350)
In my specific specialty - AWS - I asked it a lot of questions like I would at an interview and it answered the questions well enough that I would have passed a candidate who gave me the same answers.

I didn’t just ask definitions. I asked your standard compare and contrast, why would you use, is X and appropriate use of Y, etc.

It can also write Python code, modify existing code based on plain English sentences and do passable code reviews when I asked it “how would you improve this code” when I gave it a 200 line script I wrote.

Then I asked it to make the changes it suggested like unhardcode some values, add exception handling, test for existence of a property it was trying to access.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 22289d on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:20PM (#34133483)
That's awesome, it does seem to be quite good at writing code. But in that case, you can test for it's weaknesses by asking it anything recent. The models are only trained on data through X date. Ask it something after X and it wont have the data to answer you correctly. Like about some new framework or feature.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by scarface74 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:41PM (#34133628)
Hell I work at AWS in Professional Services and you could ask me anything recent to test my weaknesses. I can’t keep up with all of the announcements.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by 22289d on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:37PM (#34133937)
Google can though :)

The context here was comparing ChatGPT and Google.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by ClumsyPilot on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:47PM (#34133666)
I don't think people are out there producing fake theories for how to use AWS.

But if you try something medical, or god forbid political, it's dataset is not pure, it constains falsehood perpetuates by laymen, urban legends and outright fraud.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by scarface74 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:05PM (#34133755)
Can you give an example? In my limited experience, it refuses to answer anything political.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by heavyset_go on Sunday December 25, 2022 @08:24PM (#34133512)
> ChatGPT, if asked correctly, will instead generate one perfect document based on millions of the documents

This is the "self-driving cars will obviously be better than human drivers given that they're trained on millions of humans' driving behavior" of chatbots.

In my experience, this is a huge stretch and wishful thinking.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by jjcon on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:26AM (#34135236)
I mean, it happens in stages - I’m already using chatgpt for plenty of useful tasks that I would otherwise google (and then some). Similarly self driving cars are better than humans at plenty of specific things (collision detection/aversion for instance) but not a wholesale replacement of humans just yet obviously.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by heavyset_go on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:48AM (#34135902)
I was willing to give ChatGPT the benefit of the doubt after being initially impressed with its results, but I've also had it confidently tell me blatantly wrong information when the correct information is a Google search away at most or no human would confidently make such a mistake.

What makes it worse is that it spits out paragraphs confidently, where some of it might be right or close to right, but the rest might be subtly incorrect. Without domain knowledge, you might not pick up on it. Hell, you might even be convinced of the false information based on the arguments for it that the AI writes out.

At least with search engines you can cross reference multiple sources if you aren't confident in your ability to assess the first thing you read.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by kosh2 on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:10AM (#34136668)
Self-driving cars are much more difficult than one might think because the AI has to interface with the real world, something that humans have evolved for over millions of years.

Like others have said, worry more about every job that primarily interfaces with a computer.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by heavyset_go on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:04AM (#34136993)
Computers don't exist in a vacuum, what goes on in the computer is often determined by interfacing with the real world, reflecting real world intentions, observations, input, predictions, etc.

This generation of AI is great when the universe of values can be generalized. When the universe of values is literally the universe, it shows its limitations.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by NikolaNovak on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:04PM (#34133752)
Today I have zero confidence in chatGPT, OR my ability to evaluate and correct it's inaccuracies strictly from within its interface. I feel I can compensate for search engine and arrive at answer I seek within my confidence interval via search engine. It's a tool that can get me there.

That may change in the future. Based on my limited understanding on how chatgpt works,I don't see how though - it explicitly is not designed to evaluate or "understand".

So today I don't see it replacing search engine for me.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by eks391 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:25PM (#34134575)
> Today I have zero confidence in chatGPT, OR my ability to evaluate and correct it's inaccuracies strictly from within its interface.

Definitely not within chatgpt itself. I was using chatgpt recently for the first time and came to the conclusion to take its output with the weight of a trusted friend. I was asking questions on topics I had genuine curiousity about and that I didnt know the answer, and it led me to some information that I thought interesting, so I wanted to know more. Thats where I turned to my fav search engine and looked into, continuing my session with chatgpt to clear passages it spat. It steered me in a direction I didnt know existed, and I used the internet to verify the information and acquire me detail. Yesterday I tried out asking it for help on a coding project, and it introduced me to a helpful package I didnt know about, but the code it suggested using didnt actually work and was riddled with errors as I tried to use it in the way it suggested. I would have been blown away if it worked, so this was no big deal. I think I would have been faster just using stackexchange though.

> So today I don't see it replacing search engine for me.

I will continue to use the resources I already use to find respective authenticatable information, but I do think it is still useful for those things where I have no idea where to begin, so it can set me in a direction where resources already exist.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by machiaweliczny on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:25AM (#34139027)
For me it’s better than search engine. If promted correctly it can summarise and synthetise hours of work.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by destroy-2A on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:07PM (#34133764)
My favourite use for chatGPT is to ask it for cooking recipes, no more wading through soe sob story’s about how this tomato inspired them to write this article with 10000 ads.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by e40 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:02PM (#34134446)
> To me, that's a clear evolution of the search engine, especially with all the SEO & ad spam that's plaguing Google and others currently.

Clearly Google thinks so, too:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/technology/ai-chatgpt-goo...

The podcast Hard Fork discussed the idea of searching being enhanced with this tech in their first ChatGPT episode.

Microsoft invested $1B in OpenAI. (As Hard Fork said) will we all be using Bing in 5 years?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by paulcole on Sunday December 25, 2022 @11:05PM (#34134469)
I’m assuming models will be updated in near real-time to reflect searches with results that often change unexpectedly? Like what time my physician’s office is open on Christmas Day vs. tomorrow vs. Black Friday?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by andreyk on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:26AM (#34135234)
But that assumes search just involves document searching for retrieving information.

What about, I don't know, searching for a website with certain functionality/services?

What people really mean when they say LLMs will replace search is that it'll replace Quora/stack overflow/etc, which is clearly not the same thing!

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by EvgeniyZh on Monday December 26, 2022 @01:34AM (#34135297)
Have you already replaced Google with ChatGPT whole it's free? What are your Google usecases?
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by gloosx on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:56AM (#34135673)
>one perfect document based on millions of the documents

this literally sounds like a super-lossy compression, who would ever want this? People want crystal-clear, lossless information from original source, not a compressed mess with random artifacts.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by jddj on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:02AM (#34136623)
> who would ever want this?

Anyone who has ever asked anyone to prepare a list of anything.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by gloosx on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:58AM (#34136961)
So they want indexation, in order to navigate the sources more effectively, which AI obscures and abstracts away (into cool funny neurons thou)
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by raindropm on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:10AM (#34135731)
But I can fact check/compare-contrast with said links to millions of documents myself...and I think that's crucial to overall intellectual of humanity than ready-to-eat answer.

Imagine the world that you have the perfect answer to everything, curated by algorithm. It's cool, but...are those answers really perfect?

It's creepy. or at least that's what I feel when I play with ChatGPT(after the initial jawdrop, of course)

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by rasz on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:27AM (#34135799)
>perfect

you keep using that word

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by mehdix on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:49AM (#34135908)
Can't agree more.

When using Google & co. most of my time is wasted trying to filter low quality sponsored or high SEO reaults.

ChatGPT gives me an excellent summary of what I wanted to know without all the noise.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by rasz on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:56AM (#34136245)
as long as what you wanted were imaginary "facts"
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by speedgoose on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:18AM (#34136368)
I think we are many to focus on the current shortcomings but it’s not unreasonable to think that a future chatGPT will be better at stating wrong things with a high confidence.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by noitpmeder on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:20AM (#34137084)
It is incredibly unreasonable to think this! GPT, by definition, is a language model. Unless the underlying architecture is fundamentally altered it will never be able to accurately assess the correctness of its answer.

If such an architecture is ever created it will almost certainly not be a "GPT"-like model.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by speedgoose on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:29AM (#34137139)
Yes it would need some architectural changes obviously.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by anonytrary on Monday December 26, 2022 @04:41AM (#34136161)
This is a great way to formulate the difference. In my mind, Google does search, which is not the same as synthesis. ChatGPT is a synthesis engine. I think there is room for engines like ChatGPT to also return links to the training documents that were most relevant to producing an answer. At that point, it would be doing search and synthesis at the same time.

I am not sure if neural networks have been trained to do this yet, but it would be very cool to see a network that produces both generated output and the most relevant input data that led to that output, by somehow keeping track of the influence certain inputs have on various learned features and internal structure of the network. I think of this as an index.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by datpiff on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:55AM (#34137634)
> ChatGPT is a synthesis engine

This is exactly what ChatGPT cannot do!

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by numpad0 on Monday December 26, 2022 @06:12AM (#34136678)
- A document search engine, in its prototypical forms, finds a document matching queries, whereas,

- Modern Google Search, and ChatGPT too, tries to answer a question.

And here is the difference. A document search engine does not answer any questions.

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by oxfordmale on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:07AM (#34137013)
ChatGPT can give incorrect answers with a high degree of confidence. ChatGPT is overhyped. Undoubtedly, it is going to make an impact, however, it will be an incremental one. It may, for example, make online chatbots feel more natural. However, the current version will not replace Google.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by Dwolb on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:23AM (#34137097)
OpenAI’s advances threaten the entire information production ecosystem Google has created.

That is, Google has created an incredible incentive structure for virtually every (dollar weighted, by market cap) business on the planet needs to produce information, buy relevant queries, and measure how well its information converts (proxy for accuracy).

How might this ecosystem evolve if a language model isn’t doling out the same incentives to information producers?

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by schmorptron on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:30AM (#34137141)
I think where this eventually falls apart is there would be no more incentive for people to write articles containing new information anymore if everyone doesn't visit their page and just gets the summarized version anymore.
Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by mrkramer on Monday December 26, 2022 @03:05PM (#34141259)
Google finally stared to pay licencing fees to the news publishers for using their news articles for creation of headlines and summaries for Google search results and for the Google News[0]. If AI chatbots want to thrive they need to employ this business model in which they would pay licensing fees to content creators in order to use their content to feed the AI algorithm. And ofc they(AI chatbots) would need to link(quote) content sources in hope and in order for users to follow the links and drive traffic to the original content creators. That's how Wikipedia operates; volunteers are crowdsourcing Wikipedia pages with information gathered from all around the Web(plus books and research papers) and they quote information sources. But in the AI chatbot case the selection and the analysis of information is done by the AI unlike Wikipedia which uses human volunteers to do the job. AI chatbot and its content providers would be incentivized by profit while Wikipedia and its volunteers are motivated by altruism. Which brings me to the conclusion that AI chatbot would actually provide you with better information than Wikipedia(taking in consideration for-profit competition between content creators) or any other non-profit but Wikipedia is still useful and relevant with the regard to quality.

[0] https://blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/google-li...

Re:AI chatbots are not a replacement for search engines by hutzlibu on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:45AM (#34137228)
"especially with all the SEO & ad spam that's plaguing Google and others currently."

Well, if engines like ChatGPT are about to replace google, guess where the SEO and ad spam is going to go? I don't think they are immune to it, if the spammers really want to get in. And then you have very awesome subtle product placements mixed in everything.