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Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by bambax on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:19AM (#33753905)
> the £7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top speed and range of just 46 miles

I live in Paris and do everything with an e-bike that also has no boot, no passenger seat, a top speed of ~20mph, a range of ~30 miles... but cost me around €1,200 (since I built it myself).

It now has over 7,500 miles. In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami, and it can also be put on a train. Couldn't be happier.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Mistletoe on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:26AM (#33753995)
What are the death rates for bicyclists vs small cars like this? I recently considered a motorcycle and the death rates were too appalling for me to go through with it. Having a metal cage around you and windows is too vital for me.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by layer8 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:47AM (#33754210)
The question is how often bikes get into an accident vs. cars, which is difficult to measure relative to the number of comparable trips made. The above statistics probably only tell you that if you get into an accident that happens to get reported, what is your relative survival rate then. And it’s not a surprise that bike riders have a lower survival rate when a car is involved. That doesn’t mean that bike riders in general have a lower life expectancy than car drivers.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by masklinn on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:56AM (#33754314)
An other question is, what does that become when you actually invest in proper bike and pedestrian infrastructure?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by cycomanic on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:49PM (#33754864)
There are actually studies (e.g. mentioned here https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-longer-a...) which show that people who commute by bike live the longest.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by spacedcowboy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:50PM (#33754882)
It took being hit by a car three times (two minor collisions, the last one hospitalized me) for me to give up on the e-bike idea. Car drivers (at least in the Bay Area) are not ready for bikes going at speed, IMHO, they just don’t look, or at least, they don’t see.

This thing might work out better than the bike because it’s a lot more visible, but I actually doubt there’d be much take-up. As someone else said, a second-hand leaf or similar would probably be better.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by bambax on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:55AM (#33754304)
I've been driving a motorcycle for over 30 years; I still own one although I never use it anymore. I may die today on my bicycle but one thing is certain: I'm too old to die young.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by missedthecue on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:06PM (#33755041)
Almost 100% of fatal bicycle accidents involve a vehicle. In urban areas where cars are banned or unable to navigate, the cycling death rate is basically zero.

It's sort of like a market failure. It's in everyone's best interest to ride bicycles, but since we can't individually control what everyone else does, it's in our best interest to ride automobiles -- thus continuing the safety issue.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by asdff on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:08PM (#33758454)
I think with the bike fatality rate especially thats pretty skewed by the fact that no one has any education on how to ride a bike safely on the road at all. At least with motorcycles you need to take a class to prove roadworthiness. Some people riding bikes are also perhaps drunk or high, the same is true for cars of course, but consider how often you see clearly not sober/mentally unwell people riding bikes in big cities these days and how often they might end up in dangerous situations. That being said if you bike safely by taking the lane for example, and you avoid a lot of potential accidents on a bike:

https://i.redd.it/x8qqewx3m7l91.png

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by HNDV on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:26AM (#33753998)
I live near Montpellier in France and I also live with a bicycle as my main method of transportation, but I can understand the appeal of something like the Ami for a lot of people. It takes dedication to be a cyclist during storms.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jfengel on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:27AM (#33754005)
As I understand it, cars are increasingly banned in downtown Paris (even glorified electric bikes like this).

I haven't been since before pandemic but I really want to see that. It sounds like a great experiment.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by abyssin on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:35AM (#33754090)
They’ve been running that experiment with great success in the Netherlands since the 1970s. It’s great to see, and even better to experience in your everyday life. I love feeling connected to my environment.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:15PM (#33754533)
The Netherlands is not a regular country and cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, except maybe some flat urban area, like Copenhagen, or the Vatican (which has a few hills more than the Netherlands BTW)

p.s. Dutch did not like to hear this, but somebody had to say it.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:41PM (#33754778)
I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam. I live on one of the molehills that pretend to be a mountain and I have 22m of height difference to the river. It’s noticeable but hardly insurmountable.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:48PM (#33759677)
> I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam

Berlin, in fact, is not a country.

As I've said cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, **except maybe some flat urban area**

Paris is not the Netherlands, you cannot export the Netherlands ways to Paris.

Moreover, there are on average 150,000 street accidents in Berlin every year.

Last year (2020), 14,782 people were hurt in road accidents in Berlin - the lowest figure in 30 years, according to police data. (thanks COVID I guess...)

In Rome, considered the hell on earth of street rage (69 cars every 100 people, negative record in Europe) ~10.500 people were injured in the same period.

Same population, 1.4 times more accidents.

Perception is very different from reality.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by abyssin on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:48PM (#33754861)
I’m a daily cyclist in Brussels and my city is far from flat.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:04PM (#33759785)
I lived in Brussels, please consider the fact that what's considered "not flat" in Brussels is completely flat in 95% of Europe.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jokteur on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:33PM (#33756995)
People cycle in the city of Lausanne (Switzerland), which has a 500m height difference between its lowest point and highest point.

Of course nobody is doing these 500m every day, but its common to see parents bring their children to school by electric bike, and maybe doing 100m of height elevation.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by romwell on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:42AM (#33754154)
>cars are increasingly banned in downtown Paris

I drove in Paris past August, and didn't notice any bans.

Parking availaibility and price varies a lot, but it's workable.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by stuaxo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:17PM (#33757378)
They have pedestrianised some roads, but its hyperbolic to say they have "banned cars", there are plenty of places to drive if you you need to.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by rwmj on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:23AM (#33753958)
That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car is necessary.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by iso1631 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:27AM (#33754000)
Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a collision with the average American SUV or truck?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by HNDV on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:31AM (#33754049)
At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller cube type of collision.

At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over. You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a Monster Truck.

As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by rwmj on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:28AM (#33754024)
This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV with some safety features is likely safer as well as being more visible.

I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Gordonjcp on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:00PM (#33755512)
Given that you can kill all the occupants of an American SUV by getting a fat person to take a good run up and kick the bumper hard, I'd say yes.

At anything above a walking pace shunt in a typical Yank Tank, your insides are mush.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by eduction on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:50AM (#33754243)
Makes me feel slightly less backward about still using imperial units in the US that you and the article both use mph (I’d have guessed km/h).

Is it just a speed thing, or is distance always in miles there? Do people use metric for everything else? (I’ve heard Brits quote their weight loss in stones which makes me feel positively progressive)

Update, Wikipedia:

“ Most of government, industry and commerce use metric units, but imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, and fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked. Imperial units are also often used to describe body measurements and vehicle fuel economy. In schools, metric units are taught and used as the norm. ” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Ki...

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by MontyCarloHall on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:45AM (#33754180)
If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike.

The Ami has a primitive heater but no air conditioning, but there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size. I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities.

Biking is great when the weather is amenable to it. When the weather is not, I'd rather not show up to my destination drenched in sweat, soaked in rain, or freezing my ass off.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:07PM (#33754443)
Quite honestly, an ebike solves a lot of this.

I thought I would never use it in the winter, but a cheap rain suit is perfect to keep me warm and dry, and takes about 20 seconds to put on or take off. I don’t have to worry about sweat since if I get too hot I can just use the throttle or dial up the electric assist.

I thought I would never use the thing in winter, but I actually find it absurdly practical.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:41PM (#33754781)
Sorry but that's delusional - riding in the rain, and especially when it's snowy/icy - is order of magnitude more dangerous - traction/breaking/reduced visibility.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tlaundal on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:48PM (#33754849)
And the same applies to every other vehicle, but I suppose you would still get in a car on a rainy day?

You adjust speed and cycling style to the conditions, and for winter cycling there are plenty of good options for studded tires. The Nordics have succeeded in making winter cycling a more common activity, and you might want to check out the "winter cycling capital of the world": Oulu, Finland.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:57PM (#33754952)
Last year a friend broke 2 ribs and forearm by slipping over some wet leaves on a bycicle - I don't see how that's comparable to a car.

Also I don't have windshield wipers on my face (or windshield for that matter) - but maybe I'm just wired like that.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by cuu508 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:48PM (#33755397)
> I don't see how that's comparable to a car.

Yesterday, local news, a car crash with all three involved drivers dead.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:19PM (#33755696)
By slipping on wet leaves ? I guess it could happen but how likely is it ? Mind sharing the link ?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by cuu508 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:36PM (#33755843)
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:51PM (#33756002)
And you think riding an ebike in those conditions on the road would not be suicide ?

2 wheels make you extremely sensitive to small traction loss - hitting a patch of wet leaves/gravel/mud/ice with a car tire is a nuisance at best - and a potential fatality on a ebike/motorcycle.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by cuu508 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:00PM (#33756081)
It would be a bad idea. And that specific road, even in good summer weather, I've had a truck pass me on my bike so close I could have touched it with a hand if not elbow.

But my point is, while you're better protected in the car, with speed and kinetic energy the stakes go up. If they were three cyclists instead of three drivers in heavy vehicles on that road yesterday, they would likely all still be alive.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by blacksmith_tb on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:50PM (#33755414)
My commute is 4mi each way in quite-rainy Portland, rain on my glasses isn't too much of a problem, though fine mist I need to wipe off occasionally. I haven't ever had any serious problems with road conditions (in ~20yr of bike commutes), though I do have to slow down / watch the turns until later in the winter when most of the leaves are out of the road.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by GlacierFox on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:24PM (#33755744)
That's unfortunate. I seen that a family of four where crushed to death and burned alive in their Nissan X-Trail yesterday when it veered off the road on ice and hit a truck full of propane tanks.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:41PM (#33755909)
Last year I sprained my wrist slipping on ice while walking to my car, but I never fell off my bike even though I live in a temperate rainforest.

What should I learn from this one off incident?

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TomSwirly on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:53AM (#33762044)
I'm 60, and I bike everywhere.

I have a non-zero chance of getting into an accident, but on the other hand, I haven't been so fit in 30 years.

My guess is that my expected lifespan is increased by this decision. (I would add that I live in a very bike-friendly city.)

---

There's a further ethical calculation I would do, which is that using a car is wildly irresponsible giving that we are systematically eating through our resources and destroying our climate and with it our biosphere. (Electric cars are better, but still tremendously consumptive of resources.)

So even if I were less safe and the fitness issue were less important, I would still choose not to use a car, like I have chosen for my entire life.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Marsymars on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:48PM (#33754863)
Studded tires work well enough that I’d be really surprised if it was an order of magnitude more dangerous on snow/ice with them.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:03PM (#33755014)
Have you tried, or are you just speculating about me being delusional?

As I said in my comment, I actually do this, and surprised myself with how practical it is in all but the absolute worse weather (there are about 7 days per year where my bike won’t work, but generally that means that it is dangerous driving conditions as well). I live in rural Canada. I’m no stranger to riding in snow, rain and darkness.

I could equally say that it is delusional to allow minimally trained civilians access to multi ton vehicles with limited visibility, built in devices intended to distract powered by explosive liquids. But that system works as well.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by yafbum on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:32PM (#33755253)
Not the person you're responding to, but I agree with that argument. I have commuted by bike daily in a relatively dry climate for years. I had no problem with rain in terms of wetting my clothes, as you said the rain gear is easy to put on and off. But even though I think of myself as a fairly careful rider, I had a couple falls, one due to slipping on leaves on a wet bike path that left me with a concussion, the other due to a hobo riding a narrow bike path the wrong way, causing me to arrive a work with bloody knuckles. I haven't fallen since and I continue to ride, but I do feel I'm much less at risk of injury in an enclosed car.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:15PM (#33755115)
I used to own a motorcycle and I commute with a bycicle in ~mediteranian climate.

The only two accidents I've ever had on a motorcycle were low speed manuvers in heavy rain when I got caught by a shower.

On a bike just riding on a slippery road is terrible and wading through umbrellas, getting splashed by cars in traffic, rain in the eyes.

Riding on two wheels makes you extremely exposed - ebikes are just shit motorcycles (especially self built ones) and have a higher accident rate statistics from what I can tell.

If you're not aware how risky it is compared to a car you are you are being delusional.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by marci on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:36PM (#33755287)
Unfortunately, there are some places where the whole city is delusional, like in Finland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

/s

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tuatoru on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:52PM (#33758294)
It's more like the US is delusional. It was gaslit by General Motors in the 1940s and 1950s.

(Yesterday I watched a youtube called "Retrofuturism", that turned out to be, nearly verbatim, an old propaganda piece by GM. It was only about using cars and roads, not about the future (i.e., our world) at all. Some parts were hilarious, but overall it was deeply depressing.)

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:39PM (#33755883)
So you mishandled a motor vehicle that weighs 4-5x, with 100x the power as much as an ebike in the rain, and you commute using a bicycle which explicitly causes the downsides that I avoid using an ebike. I’m not surprised your experience is different

It sounds like your experience is different because haven’t actually tried using an ebike. I used to think that a bike and an ebike were basically the same use case. After having used a bike, an ebike, and a motorcycle for commuting I can say that they are three very different machines.

Please let me know what your experience was commuting in northern bad weather using an ebike before you call me delusional. It sounds like you are extrapolating incorrectly based on inexperience

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:12PM (#33757337)
I actually worked for a company making ebikes for a while so got my chance to try them out - like I said - motorcycle with cheap components, handles better for sure because it's lighter - but it's not built for traffic speeds.

People think because kids can drive it that it's safe - like I've said - quick Google search shows higher accident rate for ebikes than motorcycles ! And we are comparing to cars here - that's like >10x risk increase.

And every self built one I've seen had a way to remove speed limiting block (interested if have yours limited ?). That's a recepie for disaster.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by emptysongglass on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:57PM (#33756047)
I'll be another voice to say you're speaking from a myopic perspective. The Dutch bike through rain, sleet or snow without any difficulty. Modern electric cargo bikes like their favorite, Urban Arrow, are fantastically balanced and need only a trained rider to handle through a wide variety of inclement weather.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by warcher on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:43PM (#33756528)
Yeah I dunno where they're going with this.

You can ski in the snow perfectly comfortably if properly attired, but you can't bike?

In fairness icy streets can get extremely dicey on two wheels-- no arguments there. The US in particular has a lot more extreme weather than Holland. You'll have extended periods where biking on icy concrete is not a great option.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:10PM (#33766997)
Icy streets are extremely dicey on 4 wheels as well, except that cars tend to externalize the risk.

I.e. a bike slipping and falling tends to hurt the risk taker. A car slipping and crashing tends to protect the occupant at the expense of whatever gets crashed into.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:53PM (#33756616)
> Around two-thirds of the 110,000 traffic victims treated in Dutch hospitals in 2021 were cyclists, according to VeiligheidNL.

www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/274249/20220413/e-bike-injuries-rise-despite-safety-precautions-according-dutch-organization.htm

And that's in a place with top tier biking infrastructure.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by mnkv on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:11PM (#33756774)
The victims are cyclists because so many dutch people cycle! (Because the infrastructure is so good)

Per Capita, cycling in the Netherlands is far far safer than cycling in the US.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:59PM (#33757224)
Yes but far more unsafe than using a car !

> “The Dutch data for last year (2019) shows that in absolute figures more people died in car crashes (237) than on a bicycle (203). If you calculate the figure per kilometre travelled that is reversed. Per one billion kilometres travelled the figure for cycling is 11 while the figure for car occupants is 1.6 fatalities.”

Why do I have to google these self-evident facts ? No matter how good your bike lanes are two wheels are very sensitive and unforgiving and the vehicle offers 0 protection (and in fact gets in the way of softening the landing/balancing back).

The bike enthusiasm seems to override rationality - like if I strapped a child seat on a rear seat of a motorcycle social services would take my child - meanwhile if I do it on an ebike I'm praised for being environmental - despite the similar risk factor.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by emptysongglass on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:44PM (#33766730)
Cars are far more likely to kill people, and quite a few at once. In fact it is almost certain death if a pedestrian is hit by a speeding car. And if that speeding car collides with another vehicle, there's death abundant.

You're being told repeatedly by Europeans your take isn't right but you keep digging in and entrenching. Why is that? Have you considered you might actually be wrong?

The unsafest I've ever been was commuting between Brooklyn and Manhattan for two years as a cyclist: the number of near misses and actual side swipes (yes from cars) would shock you.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:13PM (#33767035)
Cause of death counts as well. If I get hit by a car on my bike it is a counted as a cycling injury even though it was a fatal accident because a car was involved.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tmnvix on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:11PM (#33756775)
This doesn't mean much absent ridership statistics.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TrueGeek on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:08PM (#33755054)
Riding increases with proper infrastructure, even in areas with extremely bad weather.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by olivermuty on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:27PM (#33755213)
Hello, I come from the land up over

As in I come from Norway and winter tires for bikes work just fine :)

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Beltalowda on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:33PM (#33755261)
> riding in the rain, and especially when it's snowy/icy - is order of magnitude more dangerous - traction/breaking/reduced visibility.

Yes, it's more dangerous. No one said it's not. No one even mentioned safety until you brought it up yourself.

If you want to bring up safety: great! Go for it! But no need to start calling people "delusional" right from the bat.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by moonchrome on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:03PM (#33756107)
But that's the worst part about bad weather - you have to ride much slower and be on high alert - so you're in shitty conditions for even longer - and ebike only makes that worse. For some reason people on ebikes don't realize that they are riding on a shitty motorcycle and how risky it is to remove speed restrictions/zip around traffic on those things - at least that's my impression of the few friends that really got into it. And the accident rate statistics seem to back my impressions.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Beltalowda on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:53AM (#33761262)
Sure, I understand your point; it's a perfectly reasonable. My gripe was with the "that's delusional".
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Lutger on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:23PM (#33755740)
Maybe if you don't have the infra, but here in the Netherlands its perfectly normal to do this.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by 0x457 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:45PM (#33755948)
Tell that to people of Vietnam.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by unglaublich on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:12PM (#33754508)
That 'raining, snowing, too hot, too cold' argument keeps coming up. You know, we humans are perfectly capable of dressing up appropriately and just enjoying the fresh air, whether it's warm or cold. In fact, it makes you feel alive!

Get the nice warm gloves and raincoat out for winter, or the super light and loose shirt with sunglasses for summer.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tialaramex on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:31PM (#33754698)
You just can't fix the extreme edges this way. Above about 300K that "super light and loose shirt" is still drenched with sweat unless your "assist" is doing all the work or there's a pretty stiff wind.

Below about 250K the "nice warm clothing" needed to make this comfortable would become too bulky to make ordinary movement practical, so we skimp. We tell ourselves nope, we're just not going outside except to do stuff, and then we're coming straight back. Below 200K it's no longer practical to keep humans alive with anything resembling "clothing". You should use a building to keep warm instead. Earth is capable of both these extremes, although outside temperatures below 200K are usually only seen in the Antarctic interior during storms.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by DoesntMatter22 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:38PM (#33754752)
What is 300k? Are you using kelvin here?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tialaramex on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:45PM (#33754821)
300K. Yes. I don't find it very convenient to work with these weird signed temperatures.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by missedthecue on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:03PM (#33755020)
No one knows what you mean.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tremon on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:21PM (#33755715)
That's about an 86 on my scale of intelligibility.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lzooz on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:22PM (#33754602)
Good luck convincing people to give up their cars and go to work soaked in a raincoat every day.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:40PM (#33754770)
Yep, reason #1 we're fucked, people became absolute cry babies about anythign resembling physical effort or inconvenience. They'd burn the planet twice over rather than move their asses anywhere else other than in a 3 tonne climatized metal cage
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lttlrck on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:58PM (#33754963)
Calling them cry babies is really not helpful.

Considering we spend most of our lives trying to increase the standard of living for ourselves and for others it's not all that surprising people resist reducing it, is it?

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:16PM (#33755130)
Is it "increase the standard of living " when it decreases your life expectancy, physical shape, made the city unliveable for pedestrians, potentially fuck up the climate for the next few hundred years, &c ?

At some point we have to look in the mirror and make choices for ourselves, and yes, lots of people became absolutely pathetic excuse of human beings, if you can't stand the rain I'm sorry but you definitely are a cry baby.

What's the end goal of this pursuit of "quality of life" ? Living in a matrix style pod, being fed food through your veins while being sedated and transported into the metaverse ?

If you can't imagine a world without cars and the idea of using a bike repulses you because "rain" you're the problem, or at least a very big part of it

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by factsarelolz on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:26PM (#33755764)
> Is it "increase the standard of living " when it decreases your life expectancy, physical shape

Yes, it increases the standard of living by pulling poor people out of poverty. So the rich consumer nation has their life decreased due to over consumption while increasing the standard of living of those from poorer nations. The rich consumer nation cannot consume AND increase life expectancy at an infinite rate.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:51PM (#33756005)
Cars do not, on their own, pull poor people out of poverty. In the US it’s quite the opposite. The need to own a car is a significant drag on many peoples finances
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:36PM (#33758141)
If it was that easy poverty wouldn't exist for decades
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by factsarelolz on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:17PM (#33758524)
Simply look to China and India of the past few decades. With the US offshoring a majority of their manufacturers to China, it lifted their people out of poverty. The US outsourced a majority of their tech support / call center jobs to India and India has seen the same result. You may also look to Japan and semiconductors, and engines. Note these are only but some and small portions but if you zoom out it’s hard to miss.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by iancmceachern on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:26PM (#33754652)
I'm an American visiting Paris and have noticed many folks on scooters and ebikes have these skirts that are fabric covers that cover the bike seat and also the legs of the rider when they ride. They also have these mitten like things that attach to the handles that allow you to operate the bike but also protect your hands from the elements. Between those two things, and a decent rain jacket (which you need anyway) it seems to protect folks well and allow them to do just about anything one would do with their car. It's not that far fetched.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TeMPOraL on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:04PM (#33755028)
Have you seen any solution they're using for transporting things, like groceries or computers or extra clothes?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by onlyrealcuzzo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:19PM (#33755156)
Yes - a bike cargo rack.

You have a waterproof bag that attaches to it. Problem completely solved.

It rains quite a bit in Netherlands, and it's the biking capital of the world.

It's almost as if rain isn't really that big of a deal.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:50PM (#33755991)
Baskets, racks, panniers, backpacks, delivery services, cargo bikes, trailers.

A significant number of Parisians don’t own cars so this is no different than before for them.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by prmoustache on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:00PM (#33758857)
Even without a cargo bike, I carry 20 to 25kg of groceries using a standard step thru city bike equipped with a front and rear rack and dual bags front and rear + backpack.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by nephanth on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:16PM (#33758990)
In Paris, you will see a lot of uber eats/deliveroo/etc. drivers on bikes and electric mopeds. It reduces their costs by orders of magnitude while not really changing their delivery times (probably shortening them actually. Unrelated to the question, they drive extremely dangerously (because of the way they're paid, they're doing all they can to cut times. do not expect them to stop at red lights))

They have those huge backpacks [1]. Some fasten it like a kind of top-case.

[1]: https://images.app.goo.gl/XVyoMqpQiQFvC5EU8

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by iancmceachern on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:08PM (#33759809)
Yes, there are entire companies devoted to making them. Here are a few:

https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle-top-cases?gclid=Cj0KCQiA...

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by elliottkember on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:44PM (#33754803)
Hopefully, ever-increasing gas prices will do the convincing.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by unglaublich on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:18PM (#33756249)
While I am a big human-powered-transportation supporter, feeding a human is generally more expensive than paying for gas to have a machine do it.

A human needs some 2kJ / kg / km to ride. That's 1.6MJ.

A car needs ~15L gas per 100km, so that's 45MJ for a 10km ride.

While the car uses 30x as much energy, it will only cost you $1.30.

The human needs 1.6MJ of food. That's about a grilled chicken sandwich. Which will cost you $4.30...

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by prmoustache on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:02PM (#33758880)
Most people commuting by cars need to exercise at least 2-3 times a week to be healthy anyway. Commuting by foot, bicycle or any human powered way allows you to do the exercising and commuting in one go.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by elliottkember on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:49AM (#33760991)
* at current gas prices
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by fulafel on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:10AM (#33761582)
What about the e-bike, how many MJ goes to electricity and how many to human power?

(Also for the human-powered case, biking often displaces some other exercise. And of course using gas is bringing about the climate catastrophe so it's unethical, money isn't everything)

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by fulafel on Sunday November 27, 2022 @09:45AM (#33763250)
Replying to myself, apparently a 25 km/h ebike does about 4.25 Wh/km of battery power which would be 0.15 MJ of electricity for 10 km. A bit more considering losses in charger.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by mgbmtl on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:47PM (#33754845)
We don't need to convince everybody. Even just convincing 10% makes a huge difference in shifting the conversation, infrastructure, reducing energy usage, etc.

I live in Montreal and winter cycling used to be a really hardcore thing. Not anymore. Winters are warmer now, just a bit, but enough to make winter cycling pleasant on most days. Dedicated, snow-plowed cycling lanes made a huge difference.

(I use my car most of the time, because usually a daycare run with kid, but now we're equipped for maybe once a week by bike)

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by leni536 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:49PM (#33754869)
Me and many of my collagues do this. We have a drying room at the workplace where we can hang our drenched raincoats.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by scajanus on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:47PM (#33755379)
Yeah -- a lot of the problems presented here (proper clothing for the weather, showering/changing/drying your commuting gear at the office) have simple and quite affordable solutions as soon as even a few people do it.

Office and apartment buildings here (Helsinki) even compete by providing convenient bike storage even for cargo bikes with easy access, washing spots for bikes/muddy or sandy gear, drying cabinets etc.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by thiht on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:27PM (#33754660)
Except when you go to work and have to spend the day with your pants and shoes drenched. And if you have glasses, you quickly can't see anything.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:39PM (#33754760)
You can own multiple pair of shoes, and even have one stay at the office, same for pants. I do it and I don't feel like I'm having a miserable existence

But fuck it, let's buy a car and fuck the planet, that's much more convenient, god forbid we sweat or touch the rain, oh the horror !

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by throwaway0x7E6 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:50PM (#33754880)
Yes.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TeMPOraL on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:02PM (#33755003)
> You can own multiple pair of shoes, and even have one stay at the office, same for pants.

This hints at another counterpoint: it's not just yourself you have to protect from elements, but also whatever it is you want to transport with you. Like those extra shoes. Or electronics. Or groceries. Etc.

Waterproof bags probably exist, but I can't say I've seen them available, or used, by anyone at all.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Beltalowda on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:39PM (#33755323)
> Waterproof bags probably exist, but I can't say I've seen them available, or used, by anyone at all.

What? Almost all non-cheap backpacks are water-proof. Water-proof packs are around everywhere.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:28PM (#33755777)
Right? I think that I would have to try to find a bike pannier that ISN’T waterproof.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TeMPOraL on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:25PM (#33758596)
I honestly never owned one in my life, nor I believe I ever seen one. Note that by "waterproof" I mean something I could stuff a laptop into and have it survive half an hour of heavy rain in it. Not something that will resist a small drizzle for few minutes before its inside surfaces start to get wet.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by JodieBenitez on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:40AM (#33774121)
Where I live a pair of detachable waterproof (yes, you can literally take a 1 hour shower with them) bike bags is about 30$.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:11PM (#33755080)
I must live a very peculiar life then. All I need is a backpack and a rain coat, it's been 7 years or so and I haven't experienced anything life changing so far

I get on my bike, go to the store, office, friends, &c. rain, snow, sun, wind, it won't kill you really

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by yafbum on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:36PM (#33755292)
Let me guess

No kids?

What you described was my bike centric life as well until it wasn't.

When you have to do school drop-off a couple miles away for middle schoolers, or do that weekly store run for a family, it gets a bit trickier on the bike.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:50PM (#33755993)
I have kids. They’re sitting happily in the dry under the canopy. It’s great. Wherever I need to drop them off, childcare, sports, friends, I park right in front. Predictable travel times, no stuck in traffic. My long term cycling average speed is on par with the average car speed in Berlin. Sure, on some distances I loose vs. a car, but on others I win, since I can take shortcuts or pass cars stuck in traffic.

Bike packs 100kg of stuff or a large shopping trolley in volume. Works for the weekly shopping without issue.

The only time it sucks is ice on the road. Snow is fine, but ice is not - because bike lanes get treated like third class infrastructure, worse than pavements.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Doctor_Fegg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:20PM (#33756868)
I do the school run (3 hilly miles each way) seven times a week on an e-bike - a Tern GSD. It’s fine. Our kid loves it and so do his friends (we share lifts). We do have a car but I haven’t driven it since August.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by noirbot on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:31PM (#33755241)
Waterproof bags have existed for centuries - waxed fabrics, well-treated leathers, and I'm sure plenty of more modern textiles. Or just put a plastic/metal box on the side/back of your bike and use it exactly like you do the trunk in your plastic/metal box of a car.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by fulafel on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:13PM (#33755092)
Waterproof bike panniers are pretty standard.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:58PM (#33756053)
Waterproof bags or backpacks are absolutely common for electronics. Alternatively, you can buy simple rain covers for backpacks. Bike panniers are at least somewhat water resistant unless you opt for the cheapest. That’s really one of the easiest things to solve.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by thiht on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:54PM (#33756632)
> let's buy a car and fuck the planet

There’s currently football matches being played in Qatar in stadiums with AC set to 20°C in 32°C weather. Thousands of people have travelled there by plane.

Me having a car is fine.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:37PM (#33758158)
The two aren't mutually exclusive
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by thiht on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:21AM (#33763482)
Yeah they kinda are. Scales matter. I know the « A not as bad as B » fallacy and in my opinion it falls short when A is completely negligible compared to B, because it’s not a fallacy anymore, it’s just reality.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by nephanth on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:04PM (#33758889)
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by thiht on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:26AM (#33763515)
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Using fallacies to invalidate arguments should be a fallacy by itself. Maybe my argument is a fallacy logically speaking, but in the real world, not everything is ruled by formal logic. If A is completely negligible compared to B, the « A not as bad as B » fallacy doesn’t apply anymore.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by nephanth on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @03:47AM (#33798390)
Of course it still does.

To me, your argument sounds pretty much the same as "The us dropped a nuke on Hiroshima. Me throwing a molotov at my neighbor is fine."

Sure that molotov is negligible in front of B. Doesn't make it okay

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by thiht on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @12:00PM (#33803607)
A more proper equivalent would be me throwing a molotov on hiroshima the day after the nuke impact. Same victim.

The atmosphere is global, there's no Qatar's atmosphere and my neighbor's atmosphere

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:34PM (#33754730)
I go to work by e-bike. I have a pair of rain pants that I pull over my regular pants, and a rainproof jacket. I wear glasses, but my helmet has a visor. Would a car keep me drier? Yes, absolutely, but I’d still need to walk from parking lot to office, and I’d be stuck with all the other folks in traffic.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by TeMPOraL on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:03PM (#33755015)
> but I’d still need to walk from parking lot to office

FWIW, this is effectively solved by an umbrella.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:42PM (#33755927)
Yes, or a rain jacket. But trousers still get wet if it’s a bit windy. And then I’m back to square one, or at least close to.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by yafbum on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:37PM (#33755297)
What do you do about shoes in rain?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by johnisgood on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:02PM (#33755535)
What do you mean? You wear boots or whatever you want to call them, not sneakers.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Xylakant on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:41PM (#33755918)
Waterproof boots or neoprene overshoes. I’ve also seen people with rain trousers that cover the shoes.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by dghlsakjg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:48PM (#33755976)
You can buy rain covers for your shoes, or just do whatever it is you do when you walk outside in the rain.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by yafbum on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:46PM (#33767820)
Ok good tip. Just to clarify. When I drive garage to garage, as many people do, I don't walk in the rain. When I do walk in the rain, I carry an umbrella, and that doesn't work on a bike
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by wreath on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:32PM (#33754712)
Or worse, sweaty and smelly. Be friendly to your colleagues
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by johnisgood on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:38PM (#33754758)
Wear appropriate clothes. Do not wear Converse sneakers when it is raining outside (or alternatively, have a pair of shoes at the workplace that you switch to once you are in, or whatever). Take a shower before work. Apply a deodorant, or an antiperspirant (the latter has different instructions, you apply them after shower, before sleep, and wash it off in the morning).
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by simlevesque on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:42PM (#33754792)
I have a shoes dryer in my office for this reason.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Beltalowda on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:37PM (#33755300)
I've cycled and driven mopeds in some pretty serious rains (including tropical monsoon downpours), and the right preparation makes all the difference. Being "stuck" on a two-wheeler during unexpected rainfall is definitely a big bummer, but a good raincoat or poncho makes all the difference, and you tend to come out reasonable dry at the end of it.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by to11mtm on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:23PM (#33755183)
There's some conditions that riding a bike are far less safe than a car. [0]

I've had interest in an e-bike in the past, the problem I personally run into is that I'd still need a car for most trips due to the way my region is laid out. (I think I had -one- job where an e-bike was viable for a commute range-wise, but only based on published specs which probably wouldn't fit the real use thermals of my region.) [1] Speaking of, the 'too cold' argument holds a bit more water for e-bikes; I doubt many have the thermal protections of a BEV, which could lead to a destroyed pack.

Also, IDK what it's like in other parts of the world, but in the US much of the population sees decent bicycles as a 'hobby/sport' rather than a mode of transport.

Personally I blame big box stores and terrible, cheap, 'disposable' bicycles. Aside from having cheap, unreliable, unsafe components (my favorite: I was fixing one of these, while trying to run through the gears, the grip shifter broke in such a way it shot a plastic shard at my eye,) they are at time assembled by people that are paid based on production rather than hourly. [2]

Bike shops, as a result, tend to cater to either the MB hobbyist or the Road folks. (At least in my region.) To be clear many of these are good reputable shops, but it means that oftentimes the items you would want to make daily riding practical (i.e. the right racks/bags for a reasonable grocery trip, are at best special order.)

Honestly?

If someone wanted to really give e-bikes a spiffy image in the US, I know exactly what to do. Take two Sun EZ Classics [3] and the SxS kit [4]. I also know at one point they made a middle 'rumble' seat as well as a special drape shroud for the SxS [5]. Redesign the SxS kit with an 'E-Motor' option (I'm not sure whether you could get by with just one or if dual would be required.)

Bam. You have a comfortable e-bike that has some protection from the elements and has some room for crap in the back like groceries/etc. Additionally, you have the ability to have a 'passenger'. I'm -guessing- in volume you could sell the finished product for ~2000-3000 USD, but that would assume that you are doing enough volume to make it worth it to all involved parties. (Why the wide swing? Last I knew the SxS kit was done by a small, low-volume shop, making it almost as much as one of the bikes.)

[0] - To be clear, safety is different than comfort/ease of ride. I've ridden through 3 inches of snow, and while it was a grueling ride, It was honestly safer than a typical ride due to everyone's reduced speeds. OTOH I've had times where there was no snow but enough (black) ice on the roads/sidewalks that snap physics calculations became important.

[1] - As we have observed with BEVs and the like, cold weather has a pretty big impact on battery efficiency. Even in my Hybrid I can see a 5%-10% fuel economy difference between 28F and 40F

[2] - At least, that's what happened at some of the stores around here. They would essentially abuse a system where infirm people can be paid less than minimum wage, by an 'output' system compared to how much a normal hourly worker would produce (easily rigged with the right person as a 'benchmark', of course.)

[3] - https://www.sunseeker.bike/index.php/products/ez-classic-sx/

[4] - https://www.sunseeker.bike/index.php/products/ez-classic-sid...

[5] - We actually did one of these full setups at the shop once for a family that had a child who had physiological/mental developmental issues but loved the feeling of riding. He could pedal when he wanted to. Them picking it up was the happiest sight in the world. Things you miss about working at a simple bike shop I guess.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by tejohnso on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:32PM (#33755252)
My problem is the lack of infrastructure. We have a few streets in the entire city with decent bike lanes. Mostly you're on the road with cars going 90km/hr right beside you with no barrier or even road markings. I'm not going to do that in anything but perfect weather and even then not very often.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by unglaublich on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:04PM (#33756111)
That's a perfect example of how we have allowed cars to endanger the public space. We all live in a constant fear to be hurt or killed by a motorist: watch both sides, do it again, are you _very_, _very_ certain? Then attempt to cross a street. And STILL 35.000 people die every DAY worldwide in traffic accidents. It's dystopian.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lormayna on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:39PM (#33755321)
> too hot, too cold

Ami don't have air conditioning or heating systems.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by oxfeed65261 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:42PM (#33760074)
According to the article, the base-spec model Ami has a heater and a “demister” but not A/C.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by kwhitefoot on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:01AM (#33761786)
It has heating but not cooling.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by rich_sasha on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:36PM (#33755845)
I'm a keen cyclist but I still don't much enjoy cycling in moderate/heavy rain.

Cold I don't mind.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by MonaroVXR on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:28PM (#33757479)
Agreed, the amount excuses that people have. I'm not talking about HN itself. Is too much.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:05PM (#33754416)
> If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike.

Yes and no. I have a three wheeler cargo bike I use for most of my commuting or city riding and very rarely do I opt for my car, particularly when the weather is bad. The main reason is that since where I live I basically cannot find parking and when the weather is bad, the roads are full of cars. In that case I'm usually quicker and more relaxed just loading the kids into the cargo bike (they have a roof) and I accept the wetness / cold than to try to use my car instead. It just works out much better for me.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jack_pp on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:10PM (#33754474)
I don't even have a driving licence, mostly go by subway / bus or scooter and right now if I go over 20kph on a scooter my face freezes, do you use a bike helmet (full face shield) when it's cold outside or are you just used to it?
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by kreskin on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:29PM (#33754681)
I used to bike year round in Canada. In the winter I would use a neck warmer to cover my face as I also had problems with my face getting cold. You'll adapt to the cold a little bit but even now when I go for a walk outside at < -10C and there's a slight breeze I need to cover my face.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by scajanus on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:20PM (#33754590)
It's different when you do the work to move you yourself (or even a part of it, on an e-bike). Other than that, a well designed hood helps, but at a cost of reducing your vision.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:42PM (#33754788)
I guess my face does not freeze? I have a scarf and a hat, and that's pretty much it for me to feel … fine? Generally I never really get cold cycling because I am moving. It's different when I'm walking in the cold where typically my feet get cold fast and I feel abysmal.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Marsymars on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:52PM (#33754897)
I put on my snowboarding face gear if it’s especially cold, even if I’m just walking outside. (Snowboarding speeds and weather are both typically worse than anything I see in the city.)
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Doctor_Fegg on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:25PM (#33756911)
Very much this. Not having to faff with parking is one of the reasons I love my e-bike. It saves five minutes on what’s only a ten minute bike ride anyway.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by prmoustache on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:33PM (#33759113)
Also, drivers are pretty much blind and drive stupidly in the rain. I'd rather be in a separate bike path in that case.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:14PM (#33754519)
As my grandma would say, you're not made of sugar. If the new baseline for human life is to not be exposed to rain and never sweat we can give up now because we'll never manage to make that sustainable.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by johnisgood on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:33PM (#33754722)
Aluminium-based antiperspirants work for days between re-use if anyone is worried about sweating (and yeah, according to studies it is not as unhealthy as people think it is, at least not in those amounts, and no one told you to bathe in it).

Not being exposed to rain... well... I dunno, I live in Europe and people just dress up as needed. Mostly it is just a matter of using an umbrella anyways.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:44PM (#33754808)
> Aluminium-based antiperspirants work for days between re-use if anyone is worried about sweating

Or go to the bathroom, change tshirt, use some deo and you're set for the day, it really isn't rocket science. You're exercising, saving hundreds of kilos of co2 per year, and saving 10+ sqmeter of parking space. Not to mention no gas, no insurance, virtually no maintenance.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by johnisgood on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:48PM (#33754848)
Sure, there are many alternatives. I prefer the antiperspirant way, because I hate sweating a lot, and I would rather not wash clothes more regularly, but to each their own. It is still car-less. :)
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by masklinn on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:48AM (#33754227)
> there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size.

Of course not, but the manufacturer tried to keep the costs down as much as they could. An Ami with A/C for double the price would be a lot less attractive.

Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery...

> I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities.

Seems rather doubtful, it would still have to provide limited amenities, but the price would shoot way up. And given the range of the car, the amenities are a lot less problematic: you can not use the car for long.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by gus_massa on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:04PM (#33754398)
> Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery...

Isn't a normal AC a reversible heat pump?

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by masklinn on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:11PM (#33754494)
A normal AC is a heat pump, but lots are not reversible.

Especially in cars, it's a very recent development in some EVs: on an ICE, the ICE provides the heating so a reversible AC is just more complexity for no gain.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by scajanus on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:15PM (#33754543)
For short distances, getting my car out from under fresh snow is more work than taking the bike. Even when it's just a small layer of light snow that needs to be dusted off.

Also if I'm going to spend any time outside, I need to spend equal amount of time picking my clothes and dressing for the weather regardless of whether I pick the car or the bike.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by InCityDreams on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:25PM (#33754643)
The weather is only as bad as your worst clothing. I did invest in Shimano neoprene overshoes to catch the crap my super-low muguards don't, but only because my gf objected to plastic bags (which were admittedly, a nit of a pain. On very cold days i put bubble wrap inside them for added wind-breakage/ windsulation. For my hands, I absolutely refuse to not wear washing up gloves, with liner gloves inside, though.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jcpst on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:35PM (#33756439)
When I was younger my car broke down and I did not have the money for the replacement part. So I rode my bike to work for 5 months.

This was quite enjoyable most days, it was only 3.5 miles each way. On rainy days, I packed a 2nd set of clothes wrapped in a plastic grocery bag, and also wrapped my laptop in one.

The worst was when it started to drop below 40F outside, and raining.

It was fun until it wasn’t- then repairing the car went near the top of the list.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by PiotrVonKleve on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:22PM (#33756890)
Check the FreZe NIKROB EV [1]. EU version of the popular Chinese Mini EV, 4 seats, has AC.

[1] https://nikrob.at/ edit: typo.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by MonaroVXR on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:22PM (#33757432)
As a Dutch person im out here exposed to these elements on the bike and yes I do own a car and even when it rains I do take the bike,I'm adjusted too it.

I did never broke something, yes I did stupid things on a bike. Even in the snow and ice. Using a bicycle isn't difficult.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by up2isomorphism on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:04PM (#33754403)
It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old. Good luck when you can still ride a bike when you are 70s and in the snow.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by bambax on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:10PM (#33754483)
If and when I can't ride (which I suspect will be never, since it's an ebike and my parents, whi are both in their nineties, still occasionally ride non-electric bikes), then I will find something else. It's not like the ebike is a huge investment that nails me for life...
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:13PM (#33754518)
If people exercised instead of living in their cars/offices and walking 5 minutes per day they'd be able to do basic human things at 70 instead of having their body give up at 40
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by zimpenfish on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:41PM (#33754777)
> If people exercised instead of living in their cars/offices and walking 5 minutes per day

I did that. Running, cycling, walking, etc. Substantially more walking than 5 minutes a day, too...

> instead of having their body give up at 40

...and my right knee became unfixable trash somewhere between 45 and 50 (a variety of ailments, possibly exacerbated by a ~2001 injury.)

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by lm28469 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:47PM (#33754840)
I'm sorry for you, and it's a data point, but statistically at 45 virtually everyone is an heavily overweight/obese excuse of a human being. For every sport injured person you have 100 obese who can barely go though basic human movements anymore
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by iancmceachern on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:31PM (#33754702)
Anywhere a bike can go, an electric wheelchair/scooter ("Rascal") can go. I intend on swapping out my bike for one of those when thr time comes.

There are also electric adult tricycles, etc.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by hutzlibu on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:10PM (#33754486)
"It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old"

You really think, that we people who do drive bicycles, do not think about cold and rain? We are the first to notice it first hand. So we do think about it, as we have to regulary deal with it.

The solution is adequate clothing.

But yes, I also own a car as I do not live somewhere with good public transport system. And I do know people who ride a bike in their 70s, but I am aware, that there will likely come a time, when I will be indeed too old for riding in the winter. But chances are, that by then I am also so fragile, that I might be too old for save driving also. Hopefully self driving is ready by then.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jeffbee on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:11PM (#33754492)
You want some 70 year old guy driving a car in your city in the snow? People outlive their ability to drive a car by 5-10 years. If you build a city that welcomes and requires cars, and discourages biking and walking, you are dooming the elderly to spending the ends of their lives at home.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Gordonjcp on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:57PM (#33755494)
70 isn't old.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jeffbee on Saturday November 26, 2022 @03:38PM (#33756469)
The visual acuity of a 70-year-old is roughly on par with a 20-year-old wearing dark sunglasses at night.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Gordonjcp on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:46AM (#33761717)
That's not actually true.

Although it's bizarre because in the US 70-year-olds seem incredibly frail compared to 70-year-olds anywhere else.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by jeffbee on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:56PM (#33765509)
It is true. At night a 70-year-old person is basically blind. They can't cope with oncoming headlights because their pupils take seriously minutes to make adjustments that a young eye can make in seconds. Old pupils don't open as wide as young pupils. Old eyes have only half the rod receptors a young eye has. These effects are already noticeable to people at age 50.

The elderly can only drive safely under ideal conditions: sun high, not on the horizon, not at night, in clear weather where nobody is using their headlights.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by zimpenfish on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:58PM (#33765533)
> They can't cope with oncoming headlights [at night]

One of the reasons I stopped driving 20 years ago (~30) was because I have this problem. Made night driving much more stressful.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by Gordonjcp on Sunday November 27, 2022 @06:47PM (#33768200)
That'll be why it's all people half my age (I'm about 50) who are terrified of driving at night because they can't see properly, and I (and people my age) can read the number the guy in the car in front is calling on his phone, then.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by vnorilo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:54PM (#33755456)
Dad is 77 and biking in the snow just fine. He's never been a car person so he's quite used to it. Always gets studded tires for slippery weather.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by eherot on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:50PM (#33755994)
Elderly people driving cars isn't exactly an ideal situation either...
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by asdff on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:04PM (#33758419)
I mean the answer is to just put on a coat? In the upper midwest plenty of people switch to snowmobile based commutes and errand running in the winter for example. You aren't enclosed then. You survive, in fact people even find it fun.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:08PM (#33754453)
Good for you.

That does not invalidate the point of a mean of transport alternative to big empty cars riding one person each and to bikes, that ride one person each and have no trunk.

Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles. Because, you know, bikes don't stand on their own, their braking abilities are very limited due to very thin tyres, they have no stop and turn signals, no rearview mirrors, etc etc

Cars are expensive because of safety devices and regulations, not because a box of metal with an engine could not be built for a couple of thousands euros.

ALSO the subway is much faster than a bike, cost much less and does not interfere with pedestrian walking spaces, I can pay 10 years of public transport with 1,200 euros.

Of course bikers of HN will not like it, but cars are the killer app for private transportation, the ICE engine is an accident, it's their form factor that wins.

Decades of design have been spent on them. while bikes are still the same old two wheelers now with an electric engine, so more like stripped down mopeds, not so great if you ask the majority of people who simply need to move and don't care about the flex.

Please, don't be un parisien.

p.s. I'm a biker and a pedestrian, I drive less than 100km a month, only when I have to and don't own a car since 10 years ago. But Ican't stand the attitude of many bikers that think that if they do it, everybody should or could do it. It's simply wrong.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by ginko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:20PM (#33754593)
>Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles.

Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:33PM (#33754716)
> Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles

wrong.

cars are more dangerous on average (the concept of average should be banned from any statistical analysis) because they travel many many many more kilometers than the average bike and mostly for very long distances at high speed.

But if you notice, I wrote "than slow 4 wheeled cars".

Ami is much safer than a bike, especially for the occupants.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by ginko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:35PM (#33754735)
Try getting hit by either a >400kg Ami or a 20kg bike each going 20km/h and let me know the results.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:37PM (#33754743)
If you wanna have a conversation, please try at least to understand a few simple concepts.

A bullet weights 50 grams.

Would you prefer to be hit by a bike or a bullet?

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by ginko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:40PM (#33754769)
A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's significantly faster than a bike. But a bike is actually slower than a car, even an Ami so I don't understand what argument you're trying to make here. Cars kill people every. single. day.

All the traffic rules had to be created just because how dangerous and deadly cars are.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:52PM (#33754895)
> A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's significantly faster than a bike

that's part of the problem.

The bullet is also shaped to cause damages

If the same 50 grams were a disc of few microns of thickness and a diameter of 50 cm, they would be much less dangerous.

A bike is shaped like a battering ram, an Ami has to pass very rigorous safety tests and is shaped to cause the less damage possible on impact, because it's the law.

So a bike going 20mph is more dangerous than an Ami going 25mph.

Because the Ami has a real braking system and it's possible to maneuver it out of the danger zone at the same time. A bike is much harder to handle in emergency situations, because, you know, the aforementioned gyroscope effect does not work as flawlessly as having 4 stable wheels on the ground.

Good news is that when a biker does some stupid shit, they can blame cars.

Except that when a bike hits a pedestrian it usually causes grave damages, ask my cousin, who got a broken hip from a bike riding on the pavement.

> All the traffic rules had to be created just because how dangerous and deadly cars are.

That's like saying that rules around train safety were created after trains were invented.

No sh*t Sherlock!

Bike safety rules existed before, because bikes existed already.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by ginko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:10PM (#33755070)
>So a bike going 20mph is more dangerous than an Ami going 25mph.

This is absurd. It makes me really doubt if you have any understanding of physics.

I also don't appreciate you editing your earlier posts to pad out your arguments.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:45PM (#33759656)
> This is absurd. It makes me really doubt if you have any understanding of physics.

You are looking at the problem from the wrong angle.

Weight is not the issue.

How about this: would you prefer to be hit full force in the face with a pillow weighting 1Kg or with a bar of steel weighting the same 1Kg?

Or maybe you would prefer to be hit with a metal ruler weighting less than 100 grams.

Sounds better than 1Kg, doesn't it?

I don't know you, but I would choose the pillow any time.

I might be wrong, but I think that density is discussed in physics too.

The point is not that a bike runs as fast as a bullet, but that a bike is basically a bar of very hard, very dense, very rigid, indeformable stuff (metal and/or composite materials) like a bullet, while a car is made in a way that in case of impact its deformable body absorbs a good chunk of the kinetic energy.

The same way being hit with a piece of metal embedded in a pillow causes less harm than being hit by the naked piece of metal, even though the weight of the pillow + metal bar is higher than the metal bar alone.

TBH a car is a very heavy pillow, running too fast too often, but looking at just 15 years ago cars have gone a very long way towards safety, bikes haven't, they have in fact gained a brand new clean and green engine, becoming much heavier, much faster and much more dangerous.

The bicycle is also more dangerous for the occupant, it's irrelevant what the biker hits, could be a wall, a car, a bus, another person, the person riding the bike will be projected forward at the same speed she was riding, no way to stop it, no safety mechanism.

That's why in the Netherlands are worried about "fewer road fatalities but more serious bike accidents" and are thinking about making it mandatory to wear an helmet when riding a bike.

I'm quite sure the problem is speed.

Specifically they state that

- the number of motorcyclists or moped drivers who died following an accident increased by 24 victims to 101 last year

- While the overall number of road fatalities has reached a seven-year low, number of cyclists seriously injured in accidents continues to rise, data released by Dutch safety organisation SafetyNL reveals that the number of cyclists seriously injured in road accidents has increased by a third over the past 10 years likely as a result of the rise in popularity of the e-bike. (too fast, maybe?)

When we talk about safety, rising numbers are always a net negative, no matter the reason why. Cars are getting safer, bikes are getting less safe over time.

Bikes are not for everybody, I think not everyone should drive a car, but slower, lighter, smaller, mostly made of derformable plastic city cars will have a major impact on urban transportation, while bikes will not.

Let's talk about it in 5 years, I bet I won't be proved wrong.

maybe a video made by someone "addicted to cycling and coffee", living in a very bike friendly Country, will give you some more perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3s2gVxLN9Q

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by nayuki on Saturday November 26, 2022 @01:15PM (#33755110)
> A bullet has more kinetic energy because it's significantly faster than a bike

Confirmed. Kinetic energy is E = 1/2 m v^2.

A bullet might have v = 1000 m/s, m = 0.01 kg, E = 5000 J.

A bicycle with rider might have v = 5 m/s, m = 100 kg, E = 1250 J.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by agateau on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:17PM (#33757980)
I'd prefer a bullet, if it's traveling at 20km/h.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:07PM (#33759806)
I would prefer a bullet too, compared to an e-bike, at any speed.

Does that mean we should all ride bullets traveling at 20 km/h?

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by agateau on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:40AM (#33761475)
I'd rather not. Never rode one, but I heard bullets are really impractical vehicles. My bike seems much more comfortable.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Sunday November 27, 2022 @06:53AM (#33762326)
> My bike seems much more comfortable

cars are much more comfortable than bikes though.

so ranking things by speed we get

- bullet +3

- car +2

- bicycles +1

ranking them by comfort

- car +3

- bicycle +2

- bullet +1

final ranking

- cars +5

- bullet +4

- bicycle +3

cars win, bikes come last.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by ginko on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:49PM (#33754866)
>Bike users deaths caused by street accidents have been 50 in the same year.

and most of those deaths were caused by cars.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:46PM (#33759667)
> and most of those deaths were caused by cars

Or by the humans driving them?

It's no surprise that the most common vehicle is involved in most of the fatal accidents.

Absolute numbers are not very interesting in this context, the difference in number of vehicles is at least an order of magnitude, it's obvious that cars are top of the list, like adults cause most of the homicides and you won't find many toddlers there.

As a data point, when Rome was in lockdown and cars were banned from the streets, accidents involving bikes and other means of transport like e-scooters, went up 5x and hospitalizations to HR went up 3x for the same kinds of accidents, compared to when cars were allowed to drive around.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by agateau on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:22PM (#33758028)
I used to take the subway in Paris. Now I ride a bike, carefully. I don't ignore traffic lights. And even riding this way I am always surprised that I'm faster than the subway. No connections, no wait, arriving directly at the exact destination helps.

Not to mention no need to stand in an overcrowded metal box.

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by peoplefromibiza on Sunday November 27, 2022 @06:46AM (#33762286)
> I used to take the subway in Paris.

yeah, the subway in Paris is not great, but that's mainly because a lot of people use it.

one particular reason people feel they are fast using bikes is because a few people use them.

it's always underestimated by bike users how terrible bike jams are.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/resizer/2nIUJ2wOHIuaxiM6vvCL...

https://www.fastcompany.com/3052767/this-is-what-rush-hour-l...

If you are the only one crossing a street with your bike, good, if you are in a lane with hundreds other people, not great.

Paris has that problem with the subway, doesn't mean that the subway is slow, it is simply crowded.

Bikes also seem faster because they break every rule in traffic, stopping at the traffic light is mostly about biker's own safety, but skipping traffic lanes it's not permitted by any traffic regulation and yet every biker does it (every two wheeler actually).

This is what the average traffic light stop looks like where there are a lot of bikes or motorbikes.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/crowd-motorbikes-stand-red-t...

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/schema_org/pu...

Even in the presence of bike lanes, everyone tries to be in front, of course they are faster, they are literally cheating.

I would be the fastest in every line, if i could skip it and pass in front of everyone else.

Truth is other people would not like it, but we tolerate it for bikes (and motorbikes) for reasons I still don't fully comprehend.

Paris has one real feature: it's a greatly enjoyable city to walk and a terrible city for bikes (or cars)

So if you are in Paris, walk!

Nobody can steal your feet!

- As bicycling boomed in the French capital during the Covid pandemic, so has the number of stolen bikes.

- “This is the worst place for bikes, The mafia networks are organized to steal them. With everyone currently riding bikes in Paris, it’s become a simple and easy way for thieves to make a lot of money.”

Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by entropicgravity on Saturday November 26, 2022 @12:46PM (#33754830)
The meek shall inherent the earth.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by voidfunc on Saturday November 26, 2022 @02:26PM (#33755760)
Biking sucks, it is dangerous and uncomfortable in snow, rain, cold, and heat.
Re:The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph t... by clouddrover on Saturday November 26, 2022 @04:34PM (#33757001)
> In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami

No way, man. The Ami has flames on the side:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens...

And does your e-bike strike fear in the hearts of criminals everywhere?

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-po...

I think not.