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Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by gavagai691 on Monday November 07, 2022 @04:57PM (#33513127)
Two additional notes:

1. Zhang posted an attempt at solving this problem in 2007 that he later more or less admitted was flawed: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/131221/yitang-zhangs-2007.... But speaking with mathematicians who are intimately familiar with Zhang's previous work, there seems to be good reason to be optimistic nevertheless. First, the idea behind Zhang's proof is similar to the zero-repulsion ideas appearing in known results about Siegel zeros, and is thus reasonable. Second, Zhang seems to have matured late, and unlike the flawed 2007 paper, his 2013 paper on bounded gaps in primes is meticulously written. He came a long way between those two papers, and he may have come even further since then.

2. Zhang is 67 years old. If the paper is correct, then Zhang constitutes a strong counterexample to G.H. Hardy's famous claims that "mathematics is a young man's game" and nobody alive today could say, as Hardy did, that "I do not know an instance of a major mathematical advance initiated by a man past fifty."

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by markus_zhang on Monday November 07, 2022 @05:18PM (#33513362)
I think Zhang's previous result was good enough to rebuff Hardy's claims.

Actually I think Math is more or less a young people's game is because whence someone be super successful and famous it's kinda difficult psychological to retain the previous mental state and push out similar results.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by salty_biscuits on Monday November 07, 2022 @05:37PM (#33513533)
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by gavagai691 on Monday November 07, 2022 @05:49PM (#33513656)
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by markus_zhang on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:05PM (#33513805)
Just curious how many examples that show FIRST major discovery after say 40? I think I spotted a few.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by astrange on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:19PM (#33513916)
This was an interesting one - a proof by a 67 year old retiree that nobody in the field knew about for 2-3 years after because they didn't read their email.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20170328-statistician-proves-...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by warbler73 on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:26PM (#33514912)
Marjorie Rice. Housewife.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/marjorie-rices-secret-pentago...

Her discoveries first mentioned in a 1988 magazine when she was 65.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wikfwikf on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:03AM (#33517962)
The discovery of these pentomino tilings is an interesting achievement and evidence of an exceptional mind, but it's very far from a major advance in mathematics.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by gavagai691 on Monday November 07, 2022 @05:19PM (#33513372)
"I think Zhang's previous result was good enough to rebuff Hardy's claims."

I agree.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ConcernedCoder on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:04PM (#33514335)
age is just a number, some people may have a prejudice against larger numbers, and that to me, seems irrational
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by gradschoolfail on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:37PM (#33514096)
Might come off as political, but Americans need need to throw off the yoke of British intellectual affectations, especially pre WWI ones.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by jjgreen on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:46PM (#33514179)
Huh? Could you expand on this?

Disclosure: a Brit who does not see Americans oppressed by compatriot affectations.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by vitiral on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:09PM (#33514793)
The structure of the modern education system is what Brittain designed to run an effective empire before any communication system existed. Every student made to operate independently as an arm of the British empire with standardized knowledge and skills, like cogs in an enormous beautiful machine.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by mangamadaiyan on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:17PM (#33514443)
I think you're conflating Hardy's thoughts as a mathematician, with the politics of his country of origin. The two, as far as I know, weren't really connected
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by foobarian on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:13PM (#33513867)
Hardy may have a point, on average. And it’s probably because of the responsibilities factor, i.e. older people have kids, families, departments to run, etc that takes them out of the game. If I did math with this level of intensity I would not have time for both without a partner willing to make quite some sacrifices.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by astrange on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:16PM (#33513892)
I remember from articles about his earlier primes work that his wife lived in San Jose i.e. on the other side of the country from him. They didn't really go into it but neither of them seemed upset by this.

That house price appreciation must just be that good.

(Also, it was reported he "worked at a Subway" but IIRC he was actually the accountant for a friend's Subway franchise.)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by m_nyongesa on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:31PM (#33515604)
He did work behind the counter sometimes.

Source: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=88Q2v6FTSBI 49:03 - 49:56

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pa7x1 on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:19PM (#33513923)
Math used to be a young person game, but it now requires so much knowledge just to get to the frontiers of human knowledge, not to speak of making a dent into uncharted territory, that results are being obtained later and later in life. When mathematicians have had time to accrue sufficient knowledge while still being sharp enough to make the intellectual leap.

The sad part is that as the trend continues we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient to contribute anything novel, statistically speaking. And as population seems to be close to peaking, we will also have less chances of exploring the extremes of mathematical dexterity.

Perhaps we could then rely on computer assisted theorem provers. Or life extension, as long as intellectually productive years are also increased. Or we will need to focus and specialize kids earlier on.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by tsol on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:38PM (#33514113)
>Math used to be a young person game, but it now requires so much knowledge just to get to the frontiers of human knowledge, not to speak of making a dent into uncharted territory

>The sad part is that as the trend continues we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient

Hmm. I had never thought of it like this. Is it possible for human knowledge to become so advanced in a single subject that it takes a persons entire life to learn just one subject? That's already true of something like the human body, which is why doctors specialize in organs or regions of the body. The more human knowledge expands, the more individuals specialize into increasingly smaller niches.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Frost1x on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:46PM (#33514188)
This is a growing problem in many fields, IMHO. I've been wondering for awhile if it's an inherent flaw in knowledge in that if knowledge can't supplant older knowledge in a high compressed reduced form as things progress, we're just building so much information/knowledge for any given field that at some point, it may be quicker to simply rediscover the process than to search the knowledge for the prior work.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by lupire on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:34PM (#33514553)
Even with optimal compression, there is still a finite minimum size.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by novalis78 on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:51PM (#33514226)
This is where longevity research a la Harold Katcher comes in and allows for super centenarian geniuses to shape the future of humanity.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nerdbert on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:28PM (#33515596)
But what if there are necessary prerequisites for making significant advances in longevity, which themselves are so complex that they require more than a human lifespan to master? We could be at a dead end unless the computers start doing the work. And even then, perhaps the same impediment applies to the development of an AI that can bootstrap other AIs into getting the job done.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by novalis78 on Sunday November 13, 2022 @11:06PM (#33590101)
Harold Katcher: “The Illusion of Knowledge”.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pbronez on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:45AM (#33518853)
If you could live two or three lifetimes, would you really want to spend them all on the same thing?

Feels like attention would become the limiting factor.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by chairhairair on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:30PM (#33514528)
Here is a short story that covers that idea: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by philipswood on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:43PM (#33515669)
Thanks for posting it!

I've read it, lost it, and have been searching for it for a few years now.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by comboy on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:35PM (#33514966)
I think we're kind of becoming multi a cell organism.

There's limit to human knowledge, but we are getting more and more efficient at communication, both with other humans and with machines.

Even without something like Neuralink we are creating abstractions and interfaces allowing us to quickly connect our work with others. E.g. especially with ML you can lazy load all necessary context.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:52AM (#33516560)
Think of it like Rust eventually supplanting C++ once the ecosystem and libraries are complete enough for people to make the change.

The cognitive burden reduces via the new foundations not requiring deep understanding of the old ones to be able to make new steps forward.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by tsimionescu on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:47AM (#33516877)
This is not a good example, as Rust does not build on C++, it simply replaces it as the foundation. Of course, the development of Rust is built upon lessons learned from C++.

But there is no universal law that says that the foundations of a field must be simple enough for one human to understand them in 70 years. It may well be that the simplest possible statement of a field of knowledge is still too complex for a single human to understand it in a normal life-span (not to mention that our capacity for storing information is limited - you can't actually continually learn new things for 70 years without forgetting much of what you learned initially).

Even today, you could spend literally your entire life trying to learn everything we know about the human body and you would almost certainly die before having learned everything. Now, fortunately, there is plenty of real work, both as a doctor and as a researcher, that can be done by focusing on just one aspect of the body (say, the circulatory system) and having only relatively shallow knowledge about the rest. Still, there is the possibility already that a mind that could build on all of the deep knowledge we have could come up with new ideas in medicine and biotech that we are unable to because of this silo-ing.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:34AM (#33520091)
> This is not a good example, as Rust does not build on C++, it simply replaces it as the foundation.

No, that's exactly the point. You can thereby drop the cognitive load of C++ and build greenfield on the Rust foundations.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by JasonFruit on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:39PM (#33514117)
Or we innovate elsewhere.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by gavagai691 on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:49PM (#33514211)
"The sad part is that as the trend continues we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient to contribute anything novel, statistically speaking."

People talk about this a lot. While I think it could happen for certain subdisciplines (it already takes essentially an entirely PhD's worth of time to learn all the necessary background to be an algebraic geometer, so most algebraic geometry PhD students publish nothing besides their thesis during their PhD studies), it can never happen to mathematics as a whole. If one part of math gets too deep, you can always go somewhere else, where the water is still "shallow."

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by sillysaurusx on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:27PM (#33514504)
I’m not so sure. The same argument would apply to theoretical physics in 1960. Circa 2023, there are remarkably few shallow parts of physics.

Math as a whole may last longer, but this list reminds us how far we’ve come in a mere few millennia: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/SaI50Q1d/166786520...

On the timescale of civilization, it seems less and less likely that lone mathematicians can revolutionize the field.

We’re fortunate to have been born so early, relatively speaking.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by mlyle on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:18PM (#33515538)
Physics is limited by having to represent phenomena in our physical world simply.

Mathematics is not just a small integer multiple larger than this.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by joe_the_user on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:19AM (#33516111)
This is almost correct.

It's not that math is vastly larger (or more sophisticated) as a field. Both fields infinitely large in many senses. Rather, the number of respectable starting points where you can do interesting things is much larger, orders larger in math.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by romwell on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:37AM (#33517823)
There are plenty of unexplored things in physics too; the key word is "respectable".

Looking from the outside, physics suffers a lot from fashion/hot trend tendencies, where you need to be doing the "hot" thing to make the jumps necessary to the coveted Tenure Track — and otherwise, you get kicked out.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nyokodo on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:24PM (#33515574)
> it seems less and less likely that lone mathematicians can revolutionize the field.

Which inspires the question: how much can cutting edge math be parallelized?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by squokko on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:56AM (#33517609)
But you can manufacture new areas of mathematics. For example, Conway's Game of Life, and then prove theorems on it.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by danuker on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:04PM (#33514330)
I suspect computers can also help us get deeper. Stuff like computer algebra systems.

Maybe some CAS-assisted work gets us into feedback loops allowing us to go indefinitely, as in a technological singularity.

But the "shallow" part is also quite wide.

You can teach people what you've learned forever, for instance.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by skyde on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:42PM (#33514995)
do you have experience with CAS? i would love to learn how to use CAS to write proof more effectively
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rowanG077 on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:37PM (#33515637)
CAS can help with the more mechanical parts of a proof. I use it often to quickly check if something can be rewritten to something else I want. The sad part is that even if the CAS doesn't find a solution it doesn't mean there is no solution. It just didn't find it. But it can save a lot of work if the first thing you do is just quickly check, if you're lucky you just saved yourself a lot of work.

I don't know what field you are in so it may or may not be helpful to you.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dagw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:29AM (#33517108)
One very common and simple use case is looking for counter examples. If your theory states for example that "all Matrices with property X also have property Y" then it is quick and easy to generate a whole bunch of matrices with property X and check that they all have property Y. Of course that doesn't actually prove anything, but it can be used to disprove a statement and save you a bunch of time chasing down a dead end.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by danuker on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:14PM (#33525057)
To be honest, my experience is limited to double-checking my algebra with the free Wolfram Alpha. I need it maybe a few times a year.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by lupire on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:33PM (#33514545)
> If one part of math gets too deep, you can always go somewhere else, where the water is still "shallow."

Yes, but the shallow areas aren't very interesting, which is why people work in the deep areas.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ves on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:36AM (#33516208)
Most of the now-deep, now-interesting areas were once shallow and uninteresting.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by carrolldunham on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:54PM (#33515079)
Then you spend your whole PhD reinventing a wheel that has a different name in the 30 year old textbook from the next field over, and neither your peers or professor have any awareness of that
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by balsam on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:24AM (#33516141)
Or, as Juergen Schmidhuber likes to point out, in the same field.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by sdenton4 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:21AM (#33516721)
There's also occasionally realignments where the deep stuff gets shallower. It takes a lot of rickety scaffolding to get to a new place, and occasionally the finished product stands fine on its own.

The simplest example that comes to mind is that you can learn group theory without really needing to know anything about Galois theory. I also imagine there's a lot of good math that has shed vestigial physics...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pa7x1 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:13AM (#33517704)
Isn't this evidence that this process has started to occur? The difficulty to make progress in certain areas of math pushes mathematicians to the shallower areas where it's easier to make a contribution. Progress in the first ones will stall and at some point the shallower areas will become less shallow and same phenomenon will occur.

Maybe we will keep forever discovering new shallow areas but I suspect this is not the case. In any case this is a phenomenon that I think will play out in the next few hundred years, not sufficiently impactful in the next few decades but more and more noticeable.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by elefanten on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:08PM (#33514375)
Regarding population decline vs. extreme dexterity... there's surely a good bit of room to improve our ability to discover and foster the dexterous extremes. If "nurture" plays any fraction of a role in the process, there are too many paths through life in this world that would still deny someone the opportunity to achieve their potential dexterity. As a baseline, I'm just talking about abject poverty / famine / war and other horrors that would easily divert someone from even the opportunity to be spotted as a prodigy.

So even if world population declines for a while, I suspect it'd be possible to enjoy more mathematical talent in the coming decades / centuries.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rtpg on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:35PM (#33514567)
While I get what you're saying, and clearly there is "more stuff", I think we shouldn't discount how progress can make things simpler on this front. Proofs we learn are usually much more refined than the original versions. Notational improvements and more interesting abstractions mean we can cover more ground more quickly.

Another angle here, I remember seeing a study where some children were just... taught algebra. Like given high school algebra classes in 3rd grade, and kids were able to absorb all that abstract reasoning "just fine" (according to the study).

Of course there's only so much abstraction that can be done, but I think we shouldn't assume we are at the end of history on much of anything (except for parsing algorithms)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rnvannatta on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:44PM (#33515349)
To add to your comment, quaternions predate rotational matrix operators by a considerable amount (1843 vs not exactly clear, ~1900 with Peano or ~1920 with Weyl), despite quaternions being much more challenging to manipulate. There are definitely simpler ways to view the same things.

There was a cottage industry of exotic hypercomplex numbers that disappeared when linear algebra matured to eclipse them.

In fact, Maxwell's Equations were originally derived with quaternions.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by BlueTemplar on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:07PM (#33515466)
I am somewhat unconvinced that quaternions are more challenging, or at least a worse way to think about the issue :

https://eater.net/quaternions

And speaking of Maxwell's Equation"s" :

http://www.av8n.com/physics/maxwell-ga.htm#sec-preview

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rnvannatta on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:41PM (#33515658)
Well, a rotation matrix doesn't require doing 2 half rotations, and doesn't require reaching into the 4th dimension in such a way that it gets perfectly cancelled out. It doesn't require abstract analogies about cubes with strings glued to them or coffee cups.

With some familiarity with linear algebra, it's easy to derive the formula for constructing a rotation matrix. You just have to think about what the operation does to the axes. The derivation for quaternion rotation is far more abstract, by virtue of the operation we actually care about involving a sandwich of multiplications with unclear 4 dimensional meaning.

Augmenting your space to handle not just rotations & scaling, but translations is easy for matrices, just requires a homogeneous coordinate and you get 4x4 matrices with intuitive columns.

Augmenting quaternions to handle translations requires the 8 dimensional dual-quaternions.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kimburgess on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:48PM (#33514643)
While there is a boundless, growing amount of prior work, from (an interested) outsiders point of view there also seems to be progress on discoverability and formalisations around how this is expressed. Building on the abstractions of others seems like it would provide an environment for _more_ novel work.

The abstractions need to be understood, but potentially only to a level of n-1. Isn't this one of the core principles of proofs?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by boringg on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:45PM (#33515015)
I haven't spent much time thinking about this but were Einstein's contributions a combination of intellect and "shallow" or relatively quick frontiers. I.e. a very intelligent intellectual working on the problem sets that are approachable without the same level of overhead required these days?

I.e. Today's world wouldn't support an individual who could have such an impact on most math/scientific disciplines?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by vecter on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:29PM (#33515871)
In a mathematical sense, special relativity is not particularly difficult. Undergraduate physics students often learn it by year two as it doesn't require much more than calculus and linear algebra. That's not all to downplay Einstein's genius. If it weren't him, I'm sure others would've gotten there eventually, but he was the first there, and his insights were primarily physical (assuming both the constancy of the speed of light in all reference frames and that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference).

General relativity was much more difficult. It took Einstein about a decade to develop it and he had to learn differential geometry in order to do so. This work was undoubtedly more profound and required much more advanced mathematics merged with deep insights such as the equivalence principle [0]. This was what made Einstein so successful: the combination of mathematics with physical insights that no one else had put together at the time.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nemothekid on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:33PM (#33515886)
When it comes to physics, I think the issue is more that we are on the limit of what we can reasonably test. It's like trying to figure out how the body works before the invention of the microscope.

Newton's Gravity was known to be incomplete for many years, just by looking at Mercury. It took several carefully derived experiments studying light for 100s of years that led us to Maxwell's equations in the 1860s that became the basis for Einstein's special relativity in the 1910s. You don't need a billion dollar particle accelerator to come up Maxwell's Equations (2 of them were done by Guass in the 1700s!). 20 or 30 years (and talent!) studying calculus or physics could get you something.

Today we know Einstien's theory of gravity is incomplete but the only places it is incomplete is inside of a black hole (good luck running a test in a blackhole) or at very tiny scales where gravity's affect is minimal. Today, I don't know how you would even come up with a competing theory without having millions to spend on a particle accelerator. While einstein famously just did a thought experiment on what should happen if the speed of light is constant for all observers, most "discoveries" are done now by smashing particles in billion dollar tubes.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by tsimionescu on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:02AM (#33516946)
> good luck running a test in a blackhole

Theoretically speaking, it's not that hard to run a test inside a black hole (getting to one is the hardest part that we know of). It's communicating the results to anyone else that's "slightly" harder.

Jokes aside, in physics we have both a problem with what can be tested, but also one on the theory/mathematics side. Even for a relatively technical problem, we don't have any good way of solving the actual equations of any slightly complex system in either GR, QM, even Newtonian mechanics. We are actually always relying on numerous approximations and simplifying assumptions, and some of these could themselves lead us astray in some cases.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by __MatrixMan__ on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:50PM (#33515053)
Another approach to the finite-mathematician-lifespan problem might be to develop new foundations that are closer to the edge. I expect there's a logical universe in which sets are bizarre and hard to construct but objects which would take a modern mathematician years to grok are convenient and simple to work with.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rnvannatta on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:31PM (#33515282)
To add to your comment, quaternions predate rotational matrix operators by a considerable amount (1843 vs not exactly clear, ~1900 with Peano or ~1920 with Weyl), despite quaternions being much more challenging to manipulate.

There was a cottage industry of exotic hypercomplex numbers that disappeared when linear algebra matured to eclipse them.

In fact, Maxwell's Equations were originally derived with quaternions.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nephanth on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:30AM (#33516165)
Homotopy type theory?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by sdenton4 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:23AM (#33516740)
My favorite thought game along these lines is imagining an alien civilization where permutations are the fundamental object instead of the natural numbers.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:26PM (#33541420)
Maybe food is plentiful enough that they never need to bother with its quantity, but there's some strobing energy source in their environment which periodically walks important chemicals through an ultimately cyclical series of states.

So like, the food is poisonous on strobes 3 and 8 of a 14 strobe cycle, and understanding that is the key to staying alive in their environment.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Qem on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:59AM (#33517936)
This approach reminds what the geometric algebra folks are trying to do.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by mgfist on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:55PM (#33515084)
One day we will be able to download knowledge to our computer-assisted brains, and math will become a young man's game again.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Armic on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:16PM (#33515197)
There's a great SSC story about this concept: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by maegul on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:20PM (#33515219)
> but it now requires so much knowledge just to get to the frontiers of human knowledge, not to speak of making a dent into uncharted territory, that results are being obtained later and later in life. When mathematicians have had time to accrue sufficient knowledge while still being sharp enough to make the intellectual leap. The sad part is that as the trend continues we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient to contribute anything novel, statistically speaking.

IMO, an under appreciated dynamic across the board of human endeavours.

With increasing complexity comes the need for more time to understand and master anything.

[dead]
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by deanCommie on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:39PM (#33515914)
> Applying AI to education should supercharge the smartest.

What does that mean?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wnkrshm on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:47AM (#33516885)
I don't know but it also fails to disregard that the smartest people (whatever that means) can have executive function issues that are orthogonal to their mental capacity.

Additionally, the belief that intelligence alone will improve the world is misguided imo. You need empathetic, intelligent people.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kwhitefoot on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:30AM (#33518066)
As we do not yet have artificial intelligence making confident statements about what its effects might be is surely rather rash.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ConceptJunkie on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:40AM (#33518804)
You must be an optimist if you think what passes for AI right now could in any way help education. It's an incredibly useful tool, but not in the way you almost certainly are thinking.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by inamberclad on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:21PM (#33515559)
Agreed, it feels like the days of maverick engineers leading huge efforts is mostly over. Will there be any more Kelley Johnsons, or Gene Kranzs in our lifetimes?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by zip1234 on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:06PM (#33515772)
Tools can be used for this purpose. New tools can unlock new abilities for engineers. I’m not sure if it applies to math but I don’t have any reason why it shouldn’t.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by colordrops on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:09PM (#33515784)
Engineering is different from math. A large part of the reason why engineering innovation is lacking in a particular field is due to entrenched players, heavy bureaucracy, and government regulation, for instance with spaceflight and EVs.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ciphol on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:54AM (#33516578)
There is still plenty of amazing engineering going on, for example EUV development at ASML.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by earthboundkid on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:52PM (#33515980)
The “lack of progress” in philosophy comes down to this. By the time of Socrates or Confucius, there had already been a lifetime’s worth of philosophical thought done that you needed to grapple with. Everyone since then has necessarily had to let something slip through in order to move forward at all.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:06AM (#33516039)
I think we sometimes understate philosophy's progress: it's certainly not measurable in decades, but the world of 2022 looks very different (in terms of philosophical priors and their consequences) than the world of Socrates or Confucius. A handful of examples that come to mind:

* (Nearly) everybody on our planet lives under a government whose fundamental structure and right to power comes from modern (meaning 17th century) political philosophy.

* Everybody posting on this board is using a machine that only existed in the mind games (and works) of math philosophers just over a century ago.

* The philosophical foundations for contemporary science are very young, practically within living memory. Popper died less than 30 years ago!

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by adalacelove on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:36AM (#33516210)
We measure philosophy success relative to finding the meaning of life. On the other hand everybody agrees that computers have advanced enormously without achieving yet AGI.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:27AM (#33516456)
“We” don’t do anything of the sort. The meaning of life is a Douglas Adams joke; philosophy’s scope extends slightly further.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kbrkbr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:15AM (#33517023)
The measure of success is different from school to school, if any exists at all in a given school. And there is no lack of schools.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:37AM (#33516212)
Did those things appear because philosophers talked about them or did philosophers talk about them because they appeared?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by unsupp0rted on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:16AM (#33516396)
I can easily imagine an Earth with no philosophers after say Aristotle that is functionally identical to our current one.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by TuringTest on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:32AM (#33517479)
Minus evidence-based science, free markets, government of the people, freedom of religion and the end of slavery. Yep, exactly the same.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:45AM (#33517557)
Might as well attribute all of that to Christianity. That claim probably holds as much water.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by andrepd on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:13AM (#33518275)
Attributing science and freedom of religion to Christianity? That's a bold thought.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dublin on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:27AM (#33518694)
And a correct one. There is a reason these things did not develop until when and where they did...
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:51AM (#33518897)
Pinning concepts like "science" and "freedom" to a specific era is a silly endeavor. But if you had to, neither would originate in Christian Europe: science as a concept predates Christianity by at least 800 years; the thing we call "freedom" today didn't take shape until 1600 years into Christian Europe's development.

Christianity, like just about every religion, has made invaluable contributions to philosophy. But it's ahistorical, to an embarrassing degree, to attribute such broad concepts and bodies of inquiry to it.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ConceptJunkie on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:36AM (#33518772)
Wow. I guess you're not familiar with any philosophers other than Aristotle, otherwise you could never make such a statement.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by unsupp0rted on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:45AM (#33519497)
Please elaborate
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by whatshisface on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:27PM (#33522420)
There should be a rule where you're not allowed to phrase a question as a false statement that insults a lot of people...
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Tainnor on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:53AM (#33520337)
Without philosophy, there is no Hegel, without Hegel there is no Marx, without Marx there is no Lenin, without Lenin, there is no Stalin, without Stalin there is no Cold War, without the Cold War there's probably not a war in Ukraine right now, and without a war in Ukraine I wouldn't be worried about my gas bill. I think that's pretty concrete.

(Just a single, rather obvious example. Easy enough to find others.)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:26AM (#33516445)
Each of the examples I gave have direct origins in philosophy. It’s not even clear what the alternative would be for Hobbes and Popper; for Frege you could call him a mathematician instead, I suppose, if you ignore all of the other philosophy he did.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kbrkbr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:46AM (#33516871)
The causality here is hard to prove, even untangle. I think the French Revolution was largely more influential for the state of governments today. I also think that science was not influenced so much by Popper, but much more by Fisher and Neyman. People tend to use what is a successful tool, and be influenced by power and theatre, not so much by fragile logical constructs without empirical value found sitting in the armchair.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Tainnor on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @11:03AM (#33520473)
Do you think the French Revolution happened in a vacuum? Without the ideals of Enlightenment philosophy it would have amounted to nothing more than mob violence (if it had even gotten started at all).
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kbrkbr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:20PM (#33523086)
Good point, I agree that it did not. Were those ideas however progress, or a tool that the Committee of Public Safety used because it fit their agenda?

Was this philosophy finding truth that guided policy, or was it making up rhetorical arguments in a power struggle on behalf of the rising middle class and its policy?

In absence of criteria of non empirical truth that are independent of the very non empirical truths they are criteria for I tend to believe the latter.

In addition to this inherent weakness philosophical arguments are not for the masses anyways. Not even philosophers usually agree what they mean or entail. How could those idea(l)s have guided the revolution as more than just superficial self justification?

Remember that the enemies of the French Revolution had their philosophers too, they just lost.

Historical events usually have very mundane reasons, class struggles, geopolitics etc. Ideas may play a part too. But I believe not in the sense that they are the horses in front of the cart.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Tainnor on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:25PM (#33524515)
Well, the original point was whether philosophy had any influence on world events, not whether that influence was good or not.

To me, the idea that ideas don't play a major role in world history and politics seems odd. There's nothing more fundamentally human than trying to understand the world around you and wanting to shape it in a certain way. Of course material conditions are important; the French Revolution wouldn't have happened had the state not gone bankrupt. But it also wouldn't have happened in that way without Enlightenment ideas. Very basic principles of the revolution, some of which were kept by Napoleon and in subsequent generations and still live on today were formulated by those enlightenment thinkers. Just consider the declaration of human rights.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kbrkbr on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:14AM (#33529863)
I understood the thread roughly this way: „philosophy makes progress. The evidence is that the modern world has adopted the more progressed rules of enlightement and scientific rules.“ And my reply was that this is highly questionable.

I’m saying that the enlightenment ideas happened because the uprising middle class needed justifications in their power struggle. Not that the ideas formed a middle class that then acted upon them.

I agree with you that humans need ideas to tell a story of themselves. And that story better paint them as good! But that story is usually not the driving force.

So I fail to see progress as I don’t see a criterion to measure progress (in general. Aristoteles‘ logic is a tool. Here I see how to compare it to FOL and judge which is better or worse for specific use cases).

As for human rights: do I agree with them? Yes! Can I justify them? No! Do I know where to exactly draw the lines when two rights collide? No! Is it important to justify them in a philosophical way? I doubt.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:54AM (#33517595)
I don’t see any direct origins. Karl Popper was a small child when Einstein came up with relativity. Hobbes was just a reactionary apologist of absolute monarchy. And Frege’s philosophical contributions were world-changing as long as we can pretend that propositional calculus is philosophy.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:24AM (#33518669)
I don’t think this is going to be productive, but to be clear: the claim isn’t that science didn’t exist before Popper, or that Popper somehow gets credit for all of science. It’s that Popper has produced the best description of science’s epistemic underpinnings thus far, allowing science to progress without imploding under the demands of positivism. In other words: when we “do” science, the epistemic model we use is less than a century old.

The claim that propositional calculus is in the domain of philosophy and mathematics is not controversial in either domain. Nor is it unusual: the history of philosophy is the history of discharging subjects once they develop a field of their own.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:01AM (#33519701)
> It’s that Popper has produced the best description of science’s epistemic underpinnings thus far, allowing science to progress without imploding under the demands of positivism

I am not sure what that claim means precisely. Popper saved science from… a certain group of philosophers?

> when we “do” science, the epistemic model we use is less than a century old

The epistemic model is whatever the scientist in question uses. One can be a Popperian, another can claim they are guided by God, and someone else would just say “shut up and calculate.”

Popper didn’t like Bohr and his Copenhagen interpretation from the philosophical standpoint yet he didn’t deny that Bohr was a good physicist.

> The claim that propositional calculus is in the domain of philosophy and mathematics is not controversial in either domain. Nor is it unusual: the history of philosophy is the history of discharging subjects once they develop a field of their own.

The context of this discussion is that philosophy progresses over time. You cannot say that it progresses just because we put a label “philosophy” on every new thing that isn’t formalized yet. In that trivial sense, of course, philosophy had great progress; especially in its subfield of natural philosophy also known nowadays as science. But did Frege really stand on the shoulders of Hegel, Spinoza and Kant and improved on their ideas?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by FabHK on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:32AM (#33520064)
> Popper has produced the best description of science’s epistemic underpinnings thus far

Ok, sure.

> allowing science to progress without imploding under the demands of positivism

How is giving a description of something necessary for its continued progress? Were people not having sex before evolutionary psychologists and biologists elucidated how and why?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Tainnor on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:59AM (#33520405)
You might be interested in the fact that Einstein himself claimed that he might not have stumbled upon relativity if it hadn't been for David Hume:

https://aeon.co/essays/what-albert-einstein-owes-to-david-hu...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pmontra on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:01AM (#33518205)
I second your other two points but I think this one is inaccurate:

> * (Nearly) everybody on our planet lives under a government whose fundamental structure and right to power comes from modern (meaning 17th century) political philosophy.

A large number of countries are ruled by dictators and their close supporters. Sometimes they position themselves within the boundaries of a more or less modern ideology but ultimately care only about being the one in command and use that ideology as lipstick. This is a straight continuation of prehistory, not something stemming from 17th century.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by woodruffw on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:15AM (#33518603)
I meant more the structure of and justification for the state and sovereign, not liberal ideology. You’re absolutely right that a large number of people don’t live under the latter.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by jll29 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:57PM (#33524191)
What is most annoying is: many of the dictators were installed by "democracies" so that these can continue their unsustainable lifestyles, at the expense of extreme suffering elsewhere.

...and I disagree with the parent's parent's point on progress in philosophy: all three examples are not progress of philosophy but at best influence or application of it, and in the last case did not involve trained/professional philosophers (e.g. Turing was a mathematician/chemist-turned-cryptoanalyst/computer scientist).

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by LeanderK on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:15AM (#33517713)
which lack of progress? The few encounters with logic (in a philosophical sense, although it feels more "mathy") I had recently were all more recent works, certainly more recent than a large part of math I use!
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dang on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:00PM (#33524901)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33515219.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kjellsbells on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:11AM (#33516065)
That's a very big claim, perhaps true only if human endeavor only ever builds linearly. But I dont think that is true. Certainly not in the arts or music, e.g. the Beatles did not need to ingest the entire corpus of Mozart or even Scott Joplin to be highly productive. Although, it certainly helped that they were extremely open minded to all types of music.

A second example is that of recent advances in virtualization, where the last decade of advances in things like cgroups, namespaces and containers were all done by people who I assert had no training in IBM MVS/zOS and therefore weren't building on what went before (imho, to their detriment).

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by npunt on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:30AM (#33516164)
The Beatles themselves didn't need to ingest the entire corpus of past musicians to be productive & inventive, but they did stand on the shoulders of giants musically (vs being born in some prior century), and they were in the right time & place to be part of a growing scene whose smarts exceeded that of any of it's individual participants. This is the nature of 'scenius' and of golden ages - a lot of ideas are already teed up in the collective consciousness.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by FabHK on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:24AM (#33519977)
> only if human endeavor only ever builds linearly.

A lot of mathematics is cumulative, though.

And even if you can go further by going thinner (specialising more), maybe breakthroughs require lateral thinking and connections that are predicated on not being too specialised, but having breadth also. If that is the case, sooner or later we might be in trouble.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by hoseja on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:31AM (#33517121)
It's also a major failure in didactics. It feels like very little of the new knowledge since twentieth century has been truly digested for easy teaching. Why isn't general relativity taught in elementary school? It should be possible.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by maegul on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:54AM (#33517270)
Interesting! As other comments ts have pointed out, didactics as an important aspect of how humanity responds to such a dynamic.

Otherwise, I’d say our two thoughts are connected. With increasing difficulty in understanding new progress, there could be an inertial tendency to over emphasise the importance of old knowledge because it’s comforting/easier/pragmatic for teachers and parents.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by germandiago on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:57AM (#33517280)
FWIW I notice how remarkably bad I was taught math at school.

When I started to go to university I really noticed how bad it was. At university the jump forward was really noticeable.

For example, at school they would show you a couple of simple explanations about derivative math or integrals, briefly and start with all the formulas.

At university I used to have a teacher that started with: history of mathematics, why they were invented, made a point about its primarily practical origins.

To explain things, he could most of the time come with real-life instances of application and there were much more often intuitive or geometric interpretations of the techniques used much more often even before starting the explanation itself to have an intuitive idea and visualization of what you were achieving.

After that, I noticed that to learn math, the first thing is to develop an intuitive, non-mathy idea of what you are doing and later formalize it.

At school and high school they just taught it as almost-memorize tables, apply formulas.

Talking about Spain, btw.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by robertlagrant on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:23AM (#33517753)
When I came across the (obvious, in retrospect) visual explanation for why (a + b)(a + b) == a^2 + 2ab + b^2 I was blown away by how simple it was, and by why on earth I had to just memorise that formula in school.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by germandiago on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:32AM (#33517807)
This is exactly the kind of intuitions I am talking about. Much easier to explain like that.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by n4r9 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:21AM (#33519936)
By "visual explanation" do you mean imagining a square whose sides are length (a + b), and breaking it up into smaller squares and rectangles?

Or do you mean mulitplying out the terms:

  (a + b)(a + b) = a^2 + ab + ba + b^2 = a^2 + 2ab + b^2

?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by robertlagrant on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:25AM (#33519986)
The former, yes.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by n4r9 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:59AM (#33532484)
It's interesting that some people find that way easier to remember. For me, multiplying out the terms seems faster, probably only because I've practised so many times in my life that I can picture the algebra in my head. It also seems more general, as it's a technique which you have to know anyway. I guess it comes down to being more geometrically minded vs algebraically minded. School should try to cater to both!
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by robertlagrant on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:20PM (#33552672)
I wouldn't use it to calculate, but I would use it to explain why the calculation is what it is.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rcarr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:23AM (#33519234)
This! Identical situation in the UK from my experience. Why maths is taught completely separated from its history and its purpose is baffling. Well actually it’s not: it’s because it serves the teachers. You hammer the formulas and patterns into the kids so they can pass the exams. Your school gets good grades and the principal is happy because he can now market his school as successful and the government inspectors are happy because the school is hitting its metrics. Meanwhile, the kids haven’t actually learned anything. As soon as the exam is passed they forget the formulas and go on with their lives.

We should be explaining the story of maths and how it benefitted society. We should be asking kids about their interests and then showing them how mathematical tools can be used in those areas. We need to show kids how maths is tied to real life rather than just presenting them with a boring formulas to memorise.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by RugnirViking on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:59AM (#33519683)
> because it serves the teachers

I don't think this is the case. I think it's because the teachers themselves don't have a good grasp on "the story of maths and how it benefitted society".

There is a silly meme about asking high school maths teachers "how will we use this in life", and imo it's not because there isn't a good response, but rather that it requires a good understanding of the ways math is actually used. Few high school teachers have actually themselves used the math they teach for anything other than academic exercise. Someone trained in control theory or using physics equations can make things that appear almost magical using maths, and if they are talented, they can find a way to explain it to laypeople. However, people with that combination of talents are desired by just about everybody, from universities to companies, and high schools simply have no way to compete (not least because teaching high schoolers is a soul-crushing job for bureaucratic reasons)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rcarr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:53PM (#33522738)
Yeah this is a very good point. The amount of people who basically go from school to university to school teacher is alarmingly high and bad for society in my opinion. Grown adults who have never known anything but the school system teaching the next generation. It’s ridiculous. I do still think the original point about hitting metrics is a major contributing factor though along with low pay and underfunding.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by vecter on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:12AM (#33518590)
I see no reason to believe that general relativity could be taught in elementary school. It requires advanced undergraduate or graduate mathematics, not to mention that the physics itself is quite difficult (to put it mildly).

To put the blame on didactically seems to miss the more important factor that humans just aren’t that intelligent, save the one in a million genius who might have the intellectual capacity to learn something so difficult at such a young age.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by firecall on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:32PM (#33515287)
Perhaps math focused hot-housing at a younger age could provide an extension?

(genuine question, as I don't know anything about it)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pie_flavor on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:48PM (#33515373)
Scott Alexander has an excellent short story on this subject: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rowanG077 on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:34PM (#33515620)
This is a big problem in all scientific fields. No one can hold all the relevant information in their head. I expect that there are various "easy" and worthwhile results to be had in many fields if someone could combine and integrate large paths of known results. But this is just not feasible to do for a human mind.

Over time I think we need to either create a GAI or enhance ourselves(via genetic engineering, brain-computer-interface, eternal youth or other ways) to overcome this fundamental human limitations.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nonethewiser on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:25PM (#33515857)
Similar situation with energy generation. Low hanging fruit is pretty much gone. Current output relies heavily on advancing up a tech ladder. If we somehow have to start over it might not be possible to make it back.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by notacop31337 on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:32PM (#33515884)
Not nit picking, just informing, population currently stated to peak around 2080-2100 at around 10.2-11.4b, depending on the estimate!
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by phlakaton on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:42PM (#33515930)
I think it will never get to that. As the frontiers expand, new ways of travel to the frontier are opened up, and the old meandering roads that took so long are left to history.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by lawrenceyan on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:00AM (#33516013)
Definitely a potentially meaningful reason as to why we should invest more heavily into life extension as a counter to some arguments against it.

I don’t foresee AI overtaking human cognition for at least a decade or two.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wheels on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:27AM (#33516152)
> [...] but it now requires so much knowledge just to get to the frontiers of human knowledge, not to speak of making a dent into uncharted territory, that results are being obtained later and later in life.

That's not really the case here. Zhang spent 10 years out of school working in fields in the cultural revolution, and didn't start college until he was 23. After his PhD, he couldn't get an academic job for 8 years and ended up delivering food and working as an accountant. He only got a part time lectureship after that. He wasn't made a professor until his big proof at the age of 58.

It seems incredibly likely he'd have been able to his big proofs faster had his life gone otherwise.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by zimpenfish on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:51AM (#33516556)
Brings to mind Gould's quote - "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops."

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/99345-i-am-somehow-less-int...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by fredley on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:36AM (#33517151)
I think about this often. Having studied mathematics, it's a field where there is a huge range of talents, even at 18 (and younger). There are genuinely gifted people who stride ahead, but the sad reality is that even at top institutions most of the undergraduate cohort will be merely averagely clever people who have received great (often private) tuition.

In a field where finding every genius really matters because of the difficulty of expanding the frontiers it's heartbreaking to realise most just never get the opportunity of good mathematical education in the first place.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wikfwikf on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:26AM (#33517445)
I don't think this is the whole story. Of course, it is a tragedy when people who had undeniable raw talent are neglected or passed over and don't get to achieve as they might. It's also sad and disappointing when we observe structural injustices in our society.

However, isn't it possible that giving great teaching resources to people who aren't already at the top level in terms of raw talent, allows them to succeed at a very high level? If so, it's not a zero sum game - the 'averagely clever people who have received great tuition' and who go on to succeed might be a sign of the education system working, not its failure. We might focus more on making sure a wider group of 'averagely clever people' get such good tuition, rather than on the finding and promotion of undiscovered geniuses.

Two examples that I often think about in this context: firstly the Budapest school of mathematics in the early 20th century. A hugely disproportionate number of the world-class mathematicians from that era were directly taught by Fejer and/or part of his seminar and mentee group. (He stands out as a supervisor to a far greater extent then any mathematicians stands out from the pack for his own achievements.) Is it possible that while one or two of this group might have been 'born geniuses', it also includes several who might otherwise have been second-rate, but who became world-class because of the influence both of Fejer and of their high-performing colleagues?

Secondly, George Harrison of the Beatles. In the second half of the Beatles' recording career, he wrote some of their best-loved songs, several of which are regarded as absolute classics. Did the Beatles happen to contain three inherently gifted songwriters, by sheer coincidence? Or is it more likely that working for a decade alongside two extremely talented and successful songwriters nurtured and elevated Harrison far beyond what might otherwise have been expected?

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:06AM (#33517669)
I think the Beatles included three inherently gifted songwriters by sheer coincidence. No doubt the apprenticeship helped, but Harrison was writing songs like Taxman and experimenting with Indian classical music on Love You Too in 1966.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by jaapz on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:21AM (#33517741)
It's not either/or, it's both. They were gifted, but they also had the time, money and motivation to work on their skills and hone their craft. It's not by coincidence that in literally every community that talks about how to level up their skills, the first response is always "practice practice practice".
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wikfwikf on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:58AM (#33517932)
By 1966 George Harrison had been in a group (with various names) with Lennon and McCartney for 8 years, their songwriting partnership had been actively writing songs for 5 or 6 years, they had written almost all the songs for 6 or 7 albums, several of which are regarded as among the best albums of all time.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ebjaas_2022 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:43AM (#33518121)
> rather than on the finding and promotion of undiscovered geniuses.

There's a catch in it as well, which is that you cannot really identify a genius up-front. A genius is, by definition, someone who thinks differently. A lot of people think differently. But the thing with the genius is that he thinks differently and correctly. The latter part won't be obvious until after the fact.

When Alex Ferguson started out as a Manchester United manager he probably already was a genius, but it wasn't obvious until many years later.

Same with Sergey Brin and Larry Page. They probably had a genius vision for the company right from the start. But it's only in retrospect that we recognize that it was, in fact, a genius vision.

Finding a genius is, I think, almost by definition, impossible.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by toyg on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:57AM (#33518187)
Alex Ferguson might have been a good football manager, but he wasn't a genius - and I say that as a Man United supporter. He didn't advance football in any significant way, and even towards the end of his career he was somewhat naive from a tactical perspective.

He was just a good man-manager in what is a sea of managerial mediocrity - football management is largely restricted to ex-pro-footballers who can't do anything else. Rinus Michels was a genius, Arrigo Sacchi was a genius - they actually advanced the sport.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by FabHK on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:05AM (#33519754)
On a similar note, Page and Brin were obviously smart and driven and all, but applying linear algebra to the search problem was arguably one of the things that was "in the air". It is hard to judge, because what seems obvious ex post was (obviously) not obvious ex ante. But, again, eigenvalue decomposition/SVD (and linear algebra more generally) - you throw it at the Netflix problem, you throw it at image compression, you throw it at anything really, something's gonna stick.

It's an interesting counterfactual: without Page, when would Page Rank have come around? The idea that the stationary distribution of a Markov Chain (under certain conditions) is given by the eigenvector to the (largest) eigenvalue 1 is certainly decades old, if not a century.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by whatshisface on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:07PM (#33522121)
You start to loose correlation with IQ really, really quickly as you move away from feats of solving established math problems to football management and entrepreneurship. Solving established math problems is more like taking an IQ test than any other activity that I can think of.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by jll29 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:50PM (#33524115)
Yes, and also don't forget that Rajeev Motwani's (Ph.D. supervisor and FFF investor) research field was randomized algorithms. So thinking about random walks in his group was a bread and butter thing, probably, not something that required genius. Rajeev is co-author to several seminal paper on the search engine and worked intensively with Google and joined their board. According to Prabhakar Raghavan, Sergey Brin acknowledged in a BBC Radio interview in 2009 that Google might not have been possible without Rajeev. (Tragically, he passed away in 2009 by falling into his own pool with alcohol in his blood, and he could not swim.)
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by jll29 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:37PM (#33523961)
> Same with Sergey Brin and Larry Page. They probably had a genius vision for the company right from the start.

That seems inconsistent with reports that they tried to sell early to Yahoo! for $2m.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by andrepd on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:19AM (#33518298)
> If so, it's not a zero sum game - the 'averagely clever people who have received great tuition' and who go on to succeed might be a sign of the education system working, not its failure.

The failure is that mediocre students which come from an environment which helps them (good school, private tutors, stable home life) can be successful, while "naturally gifted" yet disadvantaged students don't.

The basic fact that parental income is still the best predictor of educational achievement should tell you everything you need to know.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wikfwikf on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:52AM (#33518906)
> The failure is that mediocre students which come from an environment which helps them (good school, private tutors, stable home life) can be successful, while "naturally gifted" yet disadvantaged students don't.

I think you have rephrased what I said to again push the idea that it's a zero sum game. If mediocre students can be successful, given the right educational inputs (for some definition of 'successful' and 'mediocre'), isn't this a huge opportunity? Perhaps we should improve society as well as social justice by trying to promote mediocre students from poorer backgrounds to this same level of success, rather than by working on the problem of undiscovered genius.

> The basic fact that parental income is still the best predictor of educational achievement should tell you everything you need to know.

My whole point is that this does not tell you everything you need to know. If low-parental-income and high-parental-income students had exactly the same potential to succeed, the fact that parental income is a good predictor of achievement might be telling you either (or any combination) of two things: that wealthier students are achieving beyond what should be expected (and so we are ending up with incompetent people in very senior positions because they did not get them on merit), or that poorer students are achieving below where they should be (and so we are wasting the potential of talented people). These are really different problems! And probably have quite different solutions.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by radford-neal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:55AM (#33518929)
I certainly agree that talented students from disadvantaged backgrounds ought to be helped. But thinking parental income is the causal factor behind the observed correlation of student success with income may be mistaken.

Two other hypotheses are that the money itself is not important, but rather the familial transmission of certain cultural traits (which also often lead to high incomes), and/or that, similarly, the causal factor is genetic transmission of some cognitive or personality traits. Note that a factor being genetic does not mean it is immutable - for instance, there could be a genetic factor that leads to students doing poorly in school because they are intolerant of sitting still for hours in desks, which would become irrelevant if one stopped requiring them to sit still for hours.

A mistaken idea of the causal explanation for the correlation with income would lead to interventions that don't actually work.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by FabHK on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:08AM (#33519786)
> parental income is still the best predictor of educational achievement

Is that controlled for genetic influence though? Suppose smart people 1) have high income, 2) have smart kids.

Disentangling the various causal factors is substantially harder than your quote above suggests.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by andrepd on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:37AM (#33520130)
I read a study that specifically addressed this by looking separately at adopted kids. I'll try to look for it and post a link when I'm at my computer.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dublin on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:15AM (#33518605)
Given that even our first-tier colleges and universities still have no real idea how to teach math in a way that ensures that students will internalize and understand it, this isn't surprising. I think one of the most curious things about the modern world is that centuries into working with higher math, we still do not have good ways to teach it.

Most students with creative insights that could help advance the field tend to wind up one of two ways: (We need to create a viable, replicable third way - today it seems to require exceptional personalities for both student and teacher...) 1) They slog through the existing math education system, but it crushes their creativity and insight, leaving them mostly useless husks (this pit catches most mathemeticians, IMO), or, 2) They become disgusted by the incomprehensibility of higher mathematics and abandon the field entirely (this is a huge chasm of a pit, that prevents most all engineers and scientists from ever becoming more than moderately competent in mathematics and methods.)

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rcarr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:09AM (#33519083)
This is the problem right here. The solution is that Maths teaching needs to be brought online Duolingo/Brilliant style (with in person teacher support obviously). We can completely standardise the curriculum and do A/B testing to find out what is the most efficient way to get the information into students’ heads.

The data could be analysed further to see if there were certain mathematical learning styles (I suspect there are). One cohort of students might be better off on the visual/geometry heavy track, one might be better on the abstract track etc.

It should be initiated at the national government level and mandated to use in schools but the actual building of the application should be contracted out to a company from Silicon Valley/Roundabout/$COUNTRY_TECH_HUB.

Until this happens or something similar we’re just going to continue having this grossly unequal and unfair state of affairs where access to good mathematics education is complete geographical potluck for anyone whose parents can’t afford tuition. The amount of wasted potential is staggering.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by psb on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:20PM (#33521510)
I think you mean tutelage instead of tuition there (I could be wrong)
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ixtli on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:08AM (#33518253)
But what about the sweatshop owners?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kinnth on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:01AM (#33518515)
Very nice quote.

I also like to think that intelligence is everywhere, but the persistent pursuit of truth is difficult. Zhang embodies a man determined to work on his particular pursuit.

I hope I can be as persistent over time.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by hnthrowaway0315 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @11:13AM (#33520594)
This is EXACTLY what I'm thinking about. Tons of talents were wasted. To fix this we have to change the global political climate.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by fennecfoxy on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:47PM (#33522684)
I mean Alan Turing proved that even a demonstration of your abilities isn't enough to avoid persecution.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dang on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:00PM (#33524896)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33516152.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by data_maan on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:12AM (#33517006)
> It seems incredibly likely he'd have been able to proove his big proofs faster had his life gone otherwise.

Why do you think that? It takes sometimes years (!) until you get used tona certain mathematical theory. And how long it takes isa very personal thing.

Remember von Neumann, who that that we don't learn nu mathematics, but only get used to it.

I think the only thing one can say was incredibly likeli is that Zhang, while not formally employed as a mathematician, kept thinking about mathematics (a rather common for people with mathematical training, though many just stick to do occasional problem solving).

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by matkoniecz on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:39AM (#33517835)
> Zhang spent 10 years out of school working in fields in the cultural revolution, and didn't start college until he was 23. After his PhD, he couldn't get an academic job for 8 years and ended up delivering food and working as an accountant.

During that time he definitely spend less time on maths than he could or would in a better situation.

Especially cultural revolution oppression was monumental waste of human lives. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Death_toll alone

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by germandiago on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:52AM (#33517261)
A self-made man :)
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by SkyMarshal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:13AM (#33516381)
> Perhaps we could then rely on computer assisted theorem provers.

Or AI, particularly if we figure out AGI.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by abeppu on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:53AM (#33516568)
I can't pretend to be anywhere near the frontiers of math but aren't some contributions about providing a unifying framework or simplifying re-expression of something that was already known in a way that makes it more comprehensible? Is there not always hope that the right new perspective or innovation in one generation will allow subsequent generations to get up to speed faster?
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by szundi on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:56AM (#33516589)
Point is that the low hanging fruits are finite and are picker continuously, thus sooner or later they run out. Reinventing something I consider low hanging just not recognized for some time.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by tsimionescu on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:55AM (#33516912)
It's not really plausible that such a process could continue forever. It may be plausible that there are some better foundations to various fields of math that could reduce the size of the proof for Fermat's last theorem by, say, 100 fold - but it's not plausible that it could ever be fitted onto the side of a page with the right abstraction. It's not plausible that, even in the far future, you'll be able to learn the information needed to derive formulas you'd learn in post-graduate maths today after a 1 week course in 5th grade.

On the other hand, it's extremely plausible that math as an abstract idea could build arbitrarily complex structures that would be of interest if we were able to learn to model them - so, almost necessarily, within the limitations of current human cognition and/or lifespan, there will be some structures that it is impossible for a human to learn.

Of course, in some arbitrary future we may find that those limitation of human cognitition/life-span can themselves be overcome - if that's the case, then the argument changes significantly.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by pa7x1 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:23AM (#33517756)
This effect clearly exists. It suffices to check how physics and math were expressed in the papers that discovered them and how they are currently represented to notice that sometimes organizing knowledge in the right framework and simple notational changes can be sufficient to power up our ability to make new advances.

Question is, are we dedicating enough effort to this endeavors? Is rewriting known math under a different guise sufficient to survive the publish or perish attrition? And will these efforts keep returning results?

I suspect the answer is no to the first two questions, and I don't know the answer to the third.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by nudpiedo on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:46AM (#33516870)
Maths always used to be an entertainment for aristocrats and philosophers.

Only in very few exceptional times in history it was been used for something else, being the largest exceptions the industrial and scientific revolution, and these usually did not require breakthroughs: just apply existing knowledge.

It’s never been a young person game.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by FeepingCreature on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:52AM (#33516903)
On a similar theme, Scott Alexander's short story Ars Longa, Vita Brevis https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/

Analogously, I've heard transhumanists make the argument that as fluid intelligence declines as crystallized intelligence grows, we have yet to see a human mind in its full power.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dheera on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:50AM (#33517246)
> we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient to contribute Arguably the same could have been said in the 1700s when people lived till a mean life expectancy of about 40 and they would have perhaps been concerned that at some point in their future nobody would be able to make scientific advances in their lifespan. Yet here we are, living till 80s and beyond, making accomplishments in our 50s and 60s.

So we could solve this a few ways:

- Continue to extend the length of human life. Living to 150 will be the norm in a few generations.

- Create AGI that are smarter than us and make the advances for us

- Genetically engineer humans to be twice as smart, and learn as much as an average 30-year-old in 15 years

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by rcarr on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:26AM (#33519263)
Or just make mathematical education more efficient which seems like the Occam’s Razor answer to me.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by romwell on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:32AM (#33517806)
>Math used to be a young person game, but it now requires so much knowledge just to get to the frontiers of human knowledge, not to speak of making a dent into uncharted territory, that results are being obtained later and later in life [...] The sad part is that as the trend continues we may reach a point where a mathematician's intellectually productive life is not sufficient to contribute anything novel, statistically speaking

Nonsense.

First, the frontier of mathematics is far closer than you think. Number theory is one of the oldest branches of mathematics, going back thousands of years. There are many more branches that have originated in the latter half of the 20th century. And new ones are coming into existence all the time.

Second, we don't need to focus and specialize — we need to do the opposite. Mathematics is about seeing connections and patterns. We need to teach philosophy and critical thinking, and we need to give people exposure to the vast universe of unexplored — and fun — world of mathematics so that they can go towards the frontiers and push them, rather than spend half a lifetime going in the well-trodden direction.

Finally, undergraduates are still producing new results, every year, in numerous REU programs around the US alone. What gives?

The problem isn't that math is so well-studied that you need so much education to do it. The problem is that we aren't teaching people to do math, we teach them about math that they may or may not use elsewhere.

We don't encourage (or give space) for them to play, experiment, explore, wonder, ask questions, venture into the unknown, and be surprised by what they see (outside the aforementioned REUs).

So many people simply don't get to even start doing mathematics until their third year of graduate school, simply because that's when the structure of our education allows them to.

None of that is necessary. We do it that way because professors are underfunded and mentorship is not rewarded (publish or perish), among other things.

The situation is due to structural problems in academia, not mathematics, humanity, or the advances we made.

Signed, —your neighborhood mathematics PhD

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by oefrha on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:51AM (#33518163)
> undergraduates are still producing new results, every year, in numerous REU programs around the US alone.

Speaking as a former undergraduate math student producing “new” results in REU programs, all but a few of these results are completely negligible. There’s still a genius here and there though.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by romwell on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:48PM (#33536899)
The same can be said about the entire field of mathematics and science in general.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wslh on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:37AM (#33517827)
I would add that now we have new tools to enrich mathematicians works: new software tools and computing power. It is not about AI, AI is only a special case or a name for tools that can solve or ASSIST humans in cognitive tasks.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by kingkongjaffa on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:52AM (#33517902)
This doesn’t account for growing literacy and numeracy in the developing world, we might be nearing peak population but we are still ages away from a globally educated population with both the resources and education to start contributing to academia/research.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by coutego on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:48AM (#33518151)
Wouldn't Scholze be a counterexample to the thesis that young people can't do fundamental contributions?

I would say that it supports the idea that only young people are able to change the fundations of maths, while older people can still use the existing techniques to push the bord, specially on those super technical fields where experience and knowledge are an advantage.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by alexnewman on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:44AM (#33518426)
You forget, we are becoming cyborgs. Computers will allow us to move much faster, work as a team, and see the future
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by deepzn on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @11:45AM (#33521086)
We will have super advanced AGI exploring the frontiers of Math and Physics. Check out the recent Lex Fridman pod with Andrej Karpathy. Fascinating discussion.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dang on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:01PM (#33524907)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33513127.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by forkLding on Monday November 07, 2022 @06:49PM (#33514207)
It should be noted that Zhang was a math prodigy when he was young, around 13 years old, however because of the Cultural Revolution in China, school education was stopped for a decade and his parents were purged and he was sent down to the countryside so he could not study at school but was forced to work in the fields and factories as re-education. It was only a decade later that he managed to get into university because universities re-opened after the Cultural Revolution, by then he was 23 already when he started his bachelors' degree.

Note that, universities could accept people who did not attend school if they passed their university entry exams because so many people were unable to attend schools because they were all closed and teachers purged during the Cultural Revolution.

I would say he "matured" later mainly because he did not have the right opportunities because he could not go to high school and after his university graduation, had no good opportunities because many good professors were purged during the Cultural Revolution so he fled to the US for a better life.

Source: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/pursuit-beauty

And I quote from the above source which is from a 2015 New Yorker interview with Zhang:

'I asked Zhang, “Are you very smart?” and he said, “Maybe, a little.” He was born in Shanghai in 1955. His mother was a secretary in a government office, and his father was a college professor...As a small boy, he began “trying to know everything in mathematics,” he said. “I became very thirsty for math.”...The [Cultural] revolution had closed the schools. He spent most of his time reading math books that he ordered from a bookstore for less than a dollar.'

As well:

'...when he was fifteen he was sent with his mother to the countryside...where they grew vegetables. His father was sent to a farm in another part of the country. If Zhang was seen reading books on the farm, he was told to stop...After a few years, he returned to Beijing, where he got a job in a factory making locks. He began studying to take the entrance exam for Peking University, China’s most respected school: “I spent several months to learn all the high-school physics and chemistry, and several to learn history. It was a little hurried.” He was admitted when he was twenty-three.'

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by robomartin on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:59PM (#33514712)
> Cultural Revolution

It is remarkable how often we see examples of government programs or laws that end-up being exactly the opposite of the deceitful names given to them. I won't get into details here in the US, we do have an embarrassing number of examples of this.

It's the old "I'm from the government and I am here to help" joke.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by bdhe on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:19PM (#33514867)
> It's the old "I'm from the government and I am here to help" joke.

What else is the government for? I understand it's a popular Reagan talking point but I don't really grok it.

If you assume the govt doesn't work for us, particularly if you're in politics, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:59PM (#33515109)
This is probably not the best thread for a political discussion, but I will take a shot. Nobody disputes that governments should be a force for good. Government's obviously can do both good and bad. Many reason atrocities like the cultural revolution came of under the pretext of trying to help. If you think the government has veered into doing bad, it is natural to want to reform it and make it stop doing that. the talking point and metaphor simply conveys a belief that some of the governments work is bad and should be stopped. It's a lot more complicated, but that's the 5-year-old explanation of it
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by civilized on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:19PM (#33515214)
Government that limits its own power by law is humanity's greatest political invention.

Anyone can make a government that sometimes does good. The challenge is to create a government that cannot do unfathomable evil.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by joshuamorton on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:22PM (#33515562)
> the talking point and metaphor simply conveys a belief that some of the governments work is bad and should be stopped

This is a nuanced and thoughtful position. The statement "The 9 words you never want to hear are I'm from the government and I'm here to help"" is not nuanced and thoughtful, it doesn't suggest governments do good and bad, it positions governments (and their agents) as incapable of doing good. That someone from the government trying to help you must not be, for whatever reason.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:43PM (#33515939)
I don't know what to tell you. It's not a literal statement. At Best it is a heuristic and more often, a platitude.

It's like don't talk to Cops or corporate HR works for the company and not you.

If you were to take it at face value and debate it against it, you would be making the fallacy error of secundum quid. If you want to have a real discussion about how much good and or bad the government does, you need to find a real human to have that discussion with. The saying alone is a not complete self-contained philosophy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secundum_quid#:~:text=Secund...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by treeman79 on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:07PM (#33515149)
The idea is that government is inherently bad. But no government is worse.

People in government will abuse their positions as much as possible.

So limiting government as much as possible is the goal.

Good example is pandemic. Governments saved a small number of people by collapsing economies. Quit possibly killing more people then were saved. There is a very good argument that the best thing governments could have done is “nothing”.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ConceptJunkie on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:56AM (#33518944)
Government is the worst possible way to solve any problem. Therefore, we should only let it solve those problems that absolutely cannot be solved any other way. There are plenty, and this is not a statement that all government is bad, but that it needs to be tightly constrained.

People constantly rail about the evil wrought by big business, and they're right to do so, but what is the government (in the US anyway), but the biggest (and perhaps most corrupt) business of all? Except it's not constrained by the requirement to turn a profit, so it doesn't suffer the bad consequences of failure, because you can always print more money.

And you're absolutely right about the pandemic response.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:52PM (#33515065)
It's not really remarkable because governments rarely come up with nasty names. Even then the cultural revolution isn't an inherently positive. Culture can be good or bad and so can revolutions
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by ConceptJunkie on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @08:51AM (#33518902)
Of course they don't. But what's remarkable, and the U.S. is no exception here, is that the names they come up with are quite often the diametric opposite of what effects they actually have. The "Inflation Reduction Act of 2022" is but one recent example.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by wging on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:14PM (#33515187)
For anyone else who was curious: the Reagan version of this quote used "I'm", not "I am". https://www.reaganfoundation.org/ronald-reagan/reagan-quotes... I mention this not to be nitpicky, but just because googling the quote with "I am" didn't work well.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by sb057 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:04AM (#33516029)
"Cultural Revolution" is actually a very apt name for what happened. One of the core concepts of it was the destruction of the "four olds": old ideas, old culture, old customs, and old habits. They were horrifyingly efficient at it, resulting in what was one of the single-largest destructions of cultural heritage in history, and almost certainly the largest one perpetuated by one's own people (albeit the original iconoclasts probably give them a run for their money).
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by thrwoiu4o2343 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:52AM (#33516558)
Everyone in Asia did or is doing the same thing.

Meiji did this in Japan, to the point where many B. temples were burnt down (thankfully not as bad as Mao), and the whole of Japan's culture considered obsolete. KMT boys were doing the same thing in China before Mao. Nehru and his Congress cretins who inherited the British state, did the same, and India continues these "destroy Bharata" policies to this day.

In fact, since a lot of Asian culture is tied to India, one might call this an extension of the millennia long war on India from the West, but now on the realm on the realm of ideas. Not surprising that the occidental academia has deep-hatred for India's old-culture and everyone who imbibes it (at the same level as medieval anti-semitism from my own experience). They also have the victim-complex of Islam (and Xtianity to a lesser extent) to their support now.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by hnfong on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @11:50AM (#33521151)
Westernization is not the same thing as throwing away ALL your cultural heritage and adopting Marxist ideology to the letter...

You might argue it's a difference in degree, but if the Cultural Revolution actually succeeded (or not reverted), it would be the difference between zero and non-zero cultural heritage left.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by dang on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:01PM (#33524911)
Please do not take HN threads on generic ideological tangents.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by bigbacaloa on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:54AM (#33516579)
The professional math world is full of smart but delusionally ambitious people who do things like focus all their energy on the Jacobian conjecture and the Riemann hypothesis. Most crash out never finishing their doctorates (because these problems are too hard and working on them does not provide what it takes to survive professionally). Zhang is an example of such a person. What is very unusual about him is not that he continued to work on such things anyway, rather that he eventually found some measure of success. What I infer from his story is that he is tremendously stubborn and genuinely oblivious to ordinary material feedback. Evidently he has some talent too, but that's not the unusual part of his story.

Said another way - I've known quite a few people like him to a point - with the difference that none of the others ever produced good mathematics, much less solved a major problem.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by yifanl on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @11:44AM (#33521060)
> people who do things like focus all their energy on the Jacobian conjecture ... Most crash out never finishing their doctorates (because these problems are too hard and working on them does not provide what it takes to survive professionally).

In Zhang's case, I believe his doctoral thesis actually proved the Jacobian conjecture... but his thesis was relying on an incorrect result given by his advisor's own paper (presumably at the guidance of his advisor).

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by arjmandi on Friday November 11, 2022 @02:27AM (#33558150)
He had a talk three days ago, explaining his thesis where he remarked: “When the paper was posted online just a few days ago, many people who don’t focus on mathematics didn’t understand it, thinking that it was the Landau-Siegel zeros conjecture solved, and some even thought that it proved the Riemann Hypothesis is wrong. Actually, I don’t have this ability. I only partially solve the Riemann hypothesis within a certain range. If I say I overturned Riemann Hypothesis, few people would believe it.”[1]

Maybe he loves what he's doing and that's the root of being stubborn and "genuinely oblivious to ordinary material feedback". Although love or passion can be overrated or too general to describe his attitude toward problem-solving, I think people can't be just stubborn, there's a drive that holds them to a higher standard.

[1]https://pandaily.com/mathematician-yitang-zhang-confirms-par...

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by OisinMoran on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:26PM (#33514497)
It's also worth noting that the average life expectancy has increased by roughly 20 years since G.H. Hardy first published that claim, so it would extra worrisome if we didn't have any counterexamples.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by lupire on Monday November 07, 2022 @07:36PM (#33514574)
It's also unclear how much of Zhang's recent work is recent ideas, vs ideas he had decades ago but only were made presentable recently.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by WiSaGaN on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:02PM (#33514738)
True. I am wondering whether this trend would make Fields Medal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal), the most prestigious award in mathematics, to change its requirement of that recipients must be of age 40 or less.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by impendia on Monday November 07, 2022 @08:29PM (#33514935)
They didn't break the rule for Andrew Wiles after he proved Fermat's Last Theorem, which was arguably the most notorious unsolved problem in all of mathematics.

So I expect them to stick to their rule.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by random3 on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:29PM (#33515872)
Think Knuth and a few others are good exceptions to the rule.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by anonymous_i on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:50AM (#33516266)
I disagree with Math had to be learned when you are young.

Intelligent people will end up learning something profound when they are young.If they find something else interesting enough at a later stage in their life, they apply some transformation learning.

Leibniz did not start his training in Math until he was ~30

> Thus Leibniz went to Paris in 1672. Soon after arriving, he met Dutch physicist and mathematician Christiaan Huygens and realised that his own knowledge of mathematics and physics was patchy. With Huygens as his mentor, he began a program of self-study that soon pushed him to making major contributions to both subjects, including discovering his version of the differential and integral calculus.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by SkyMarshal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:11AM (#33516374)
Regarding #2, I think Andrew Wiles already disproved that conjecture, solving Fermat at 41 or thereabouts, but Zhang is certainly another nail in its coffin.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by Jweb_Guru on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:29AM (#33516775)
That rejoinder has not been true for a while now. Laszlo Babai's graph isomorphism work is another recent example.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by data_maan on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:28AM (#33517101)
Raoul Bott is another good example of someone switching from (electrical engineering I believe?) to math in his 40s.
Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by TrackerFF on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:11AM (#33517699)
I'd like to think that there's much more socioeconomic diversity among present day scientists, compared to those back in the day of Hardy.

Not to mention that up until 1910s, life expectancy was under 50.

Being able to work in academia as a tenured professor/researcher probably resulted in drastically different life expectancy, compared to being forced to do something else. I think it's safe to say that Zhang would been forced to live as a peasant, had he been born 120 years ago.

Re:Monumental advance in number theory posted to the ArXiv b... by naasking on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @09:00AM (#33518982)
> 2. Zhang is 67 years old. If the paper is correct, then Zhang constitutes a strong counterexample to G.H. Hardy's famous claims that "mathematics is a young man's game" and nobody alive today could say, as Hardy did, that "I do not know an instance of a major mathematical advance initiated by a man past

I think the actual truth is more like, "big breakthroughs mainly happen early in one's career". Most mathematicians start their careers young, therefore they publish breakthroughs while young. Zhang started quite late so his innovations are later in his life, but still early in his career.

And it makes sense, everyone has a slightly unique way of thinking, and long-standing problems will only yield to unique thinking. Eventually someone will come along that has just that right type of unique thought process that will find a hole to solve such a problem.