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Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mudrockbestgirl on Friday October 21, 2022 @06:55AM (#33286677)
It's not surprising at all. All of these review-driven P2P marketplace businesses end up with the same problem. After the initial phase of early adopters that offer generally high quality products, a flood of fake or low-quality listing tries to squeeze money out of the platform. These people are not listing their homes on Airbnb, they are trying to make a living by extracting as much money from the platform as they possibly can. They don't care if they're banned or reported. They'll just make a new fake account. Low ratings? No problem, just pay for some fake reviews.

The same is true for Amazon and other marketplace business. It's overrun by Amazon FBA sellers selling cheap low-quality white-labeled Alibaba products. It's almost impossible to find real brands or high-quality products these days, unless you specifically know what to search for.

How to deal with it? Personally I've started going back to hotels to be safe. If I do use Airbnb, I do a lot of research on the host and reviews and assume the place I'm getting is 80% worse than what the pictures show.

Other examples: App Store app reviews, restaurant review apps and food delivery apps. Fortunately it's not a big deal if these are scams. It's just a few dollars. Sucks much more when it's your vacation rental.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by fareed79 on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:12AM (#33286778)
basically, author expects calibrated minimal services, good support, and a minimal standard of quality. This is what you call a classic hotel/lodge. I fully agree with you, and those living close to these miserable BnB businesses surely would agree as well. This "model" is rotting city centers and popular places. AirBnB will never care about that poor lady. AirBnB will know how to make her anger disappear into the zero-star reviews statistics - it is much more important to keep a large density of cheap appts in the center of Lisbon.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by stewx on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:16AM (#33287679)
There's no good reason AirBnb could not offer proper support. Showing contempt for your customers like this is a choice.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bell-cot on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:29AM (#33287787)
Might you tell us about any large, modern, fast-growing businesses which happily limit profits, so they can pay for high-quality customer support? Yes, it's "a choice". Sadly, it's an overwhelmingly popular choice.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by stewx on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:37AM (#33287863)
My employer chooses to staff our customer support lines with North American agents who know what they are doing.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by smugma on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:48AM (#33287960)
Zappos, from inception to 1B acquisition and beyond.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:27AM (#33289029)
Although I would argue that Zappos didn't "limit profits." Rather they (correctly) surmised that the only way to successfully sell shoes online as a core business was to be seen as bending over backwards from a customer service perspective.

Which is not to take anything away from them but customer service is pretty much baked into their model.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bmj on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#33290487)
And it's a popular choice because the consumers often don't seem to care. Many are willing to accept poor customer service in the pursuit of lower prices for goods and services.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by HWR_14 on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:15PM (#33291243)
> any large, modern, fast-growing businesses which happily limit profits, so they can pay for high-quality customer support?

Famously, Chewy. Amazon (used to?) have a reputation for being very pro consumer. Zappos.

Obviously, those are all companies that grew because if I knew of fast growing businesses that were sustainable and likely to succeed I would be investing other people's money fulltime.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcguire on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:24PM (#33291346)
There is a very good reason: their business model. They absolutely do not want to be in the business of verifying and maintaining their listings.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by madaxe_again on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:25PM (#33289809)
I don’t know why I’ve had such a different experience to others, but in both cases where I complained to Airbnb when a host was unable or unwilling to offer a resolution, Airbnb made things right for me - in one case even covering the parking ticket I’d ended up with from the host’s crappy instructions, in the other, the listing was removed as the issues were too egregious to number.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcculley on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:37AM (#33286943)
This is a useful way to think about how markets evolve.

I have yet to use Airbnb. But it seems that the target customer has changed. I have been aware of them since they first showed up on Hacker News. They were pitched as renting an airbed where hotels are not a useful choice. That target customer is a demographic that I had aged out of before they started. If they were still marketing only to very young people willing to sleep on an airbed and not risk-averse to bedbugs, there would be a lot less disappointment. But of course the company wants to, as all do, grow to other customers and markets.

I wonder if the original investors always thought that they would try to compete with hotels for higher end customers as they do now.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by hef19898 on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:10AM (#33287158)
What AirBnB missed was to include hotels in its listings, which would have allowed them to over a complete experience for travelers in general. booking.com started with hotels and included more AirBnB style listings.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by VBprogrammer on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:59AM (#33287529)
Expanding into different niches like that is difficult. It's like Booking.com expanding into the camping market. They end up trying to shoehorn camping into the same database tables as hotel stays and it just becomes an abomination which misses many of the subtleties in the market.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by rjsw on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:16AM (#33287675)
I think Booking.com expanding into camping would work fine in Europe, most campsites are busineses with a defined set of facilities that they offer.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by hef19898 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:32AM (#33287822)
Depends on the camp grounds. Those with specified and defined places it should be rather easy to do (Italy, Croatia, Germany are among those regions were you tend to have a lot those, France is a mixed bag and I haven't been to GB or Scandinavia recently). Those without defined places, that's gonna be difficult...
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:39AM (#33287889)
A lot of B&Bs (in the sense of small inns) in the US do list on AirBnB.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by slaw on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:45AM (#33289266)
AirBnb lists some hotel rooms in Mexico.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Spooky23 on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:21AM (#33287254)
It changed when it turned into a big VC thing. All of the “Uber for X” models are fundamentally evil at scale. The founders vision is irrelevant to the investors need for return.

The business model is to grow until the market is saturated, and then become one of the 3-4 entities that dominate their niche. VRBO chalked out the “vacation home” scope, hotels do their thing, so AirBnb dabbles in everything, but owns the “shared” accommodation part of the market. While they advertise a treehouse in the rainforest or whatever, the socially problematic conversions of apartments to flop houses in locations without hotels ultimately drives the business.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ethbr0 on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:43AM (#33287396)
Post-Google, I don't think there's any excuse for founders of marketplaces / platforms to ignore the ultimate metastasization of their business models.

If you are wildly successful (oh, to be so lucky), what will your company be forced to optimize?

Mid-years Amazon's radically generous customer service refunds and Etsy's seller revolt yanked their courses away from volume optimization for a few years... but it's their inevitable end state for boosting revenue. No public company can resist maximizing revenue by any means available, and especially when no other plausible alternatives are available.

So think really hard on how to set up a marketplace / platform with a business model that mixes in more user-aligned and sustainable goals? Looking at you, Apple...

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by SQueeeeeL on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:20AM (#33287710)
This sounds like actually healthy productive places to exist and exchange might have to... exist outside of the realm of continuous growth by individuals motivated by ideology over profit.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Spooky23 on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:43PM (#33290836)
The the need for cancer-like growth is really a driver of the worst behavior.

As a consumer of B2B services, I’m always amazed by the awful deals companies make to show revenue growth. One in particular a few years ago was particularly amazing. The sales dude was getting paid on revenue, and pushed through a deal that cost the company fortune. The entire sales chain of command retired and bought boats.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by johnnymorgan on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:46AM (#33287418)
I love that you used the term flop house and it also accurately describes the value prop :)
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcculley on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:05AM (#33287595)
It started as being intended for VC, right? I remember YC being an investor and Paul Graham saying great things about the founders. Certainly they must have been counting on growth. Did they plan to just capture every airbed? Or to do to hotels what Uber did to taxis (both good and bad)?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by noasaservice on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:21AM (#33287720)
All these (AirBNB, Uber, etc) e-companies do is take what's illegal, add "internet", and somehow is legal until the authorities can see through the shit-show.

And of course, while the grift is going, the execs and shareholders get rich. But everyone knows when the gig is up. Evidence: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/11/uber-doordash-plunge-as-labo...

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Tarsul on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:02AM (#33288092)
Thank you for saying this. Sometimes I feel like I'm insane in that no one seems to acknowledge that many of these businesses are simply skirting real regulations because "internet" as you say so succinctly (e.g. PayPal skirting banking laws, Uber skirting Taxi laws, Amazon skirting tax laws etc.). Thankfully, it didn't/doesn't work in every country/case but it's apalling how often it did work.

btw. I'm all for interruption but please... it shouldn't be through these means (at least not on this scale).

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by InitialLastName on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:20PM (#33289739)
> Amazon skirting tax laws

Never forget "skirting consumer product safety regulations and trademark protections". Their entire retail business at this point is no more subject to regulation than buying "designer" handbags off some dude's street stand.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by pessimizer on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:40PM (#33290039)
> authorities can see through the shit-show.

No, they hire the authorities, and the shit-show goes on forever. The gig is only up when they've passed their overvalued business on to late investors, who demand to be paid through strategic neglect of core functions, price rises to rational market values (or higher), and moonshot PR.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Spooky23 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:47AM (#33287957)
I don’t know. In the absence of specific details, I try to be generous in my assessment of founders.

I imagine that it could have pivoted in many directions. That’s really the tragedy of AirBnb. It seems like a platform that could have been more.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcculley on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:08PM (#33292497)
I am not asking about the founders. I agree we should be generous when considering their experience. I am asking about the investors. They put money in at some estimation of total addressable market.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by drc500free on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#33290164)
These always remind me of the Stay Puft marshmallow man from Ghostbusters. Like the most innocuous thing ever becomes terrible at scale. Amazon, Uber, AirBnB, Facebook all seemed like reasonable to great ideas and were really neat at smaller scale. And once they grew they started wreaking havoc in new and unexpected ways.

It’s a good thought experiment for any startup - how could this cool thing that people like destroy the world if it became a paper clip maximizer?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by datavirtue on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:01PM (#33290365)
Exactly, I was so optimistic that the only path was one of human enlightenment because of the internet's ability to scale up the distribution of information and allow groups to collaborate instantly.

It all went horribly wrong.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcguire on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:14PM (#33291234)
Human's gonna human. :-)
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Aeolun on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:58AM (#33287520)
> If they were still marketing only to very young people willing to sleep on an airbed and not risk-averse to bedbugs, there would be a lot less disappointment.

This would be fine if you were paying consummate prices. I’ve used AirBnB years back and for $20 a night you got about what you can expect.

$3000 for that hovel is extortionate!

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by candiodari on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:00AM (#33288066)
What I don't get is ... where is the government in all this? As the article points out: the owners of the property clearly violate a lot of laws. So I hear violating the law gets you into "trouble with the law".

Well, clearly it doesn't.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by rjzzleep on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:21AM (#33288250)
I once went to the German police over an illegal listing, after the owner got physical when I asked him to turn on the heat at night.

The police laughed at me and told me what I did wrong. Part of it was racism, but the other part of it was just laziness.

To actually get something to happen you have to send a letter to the general prosecutor, who then orders the police to investigate. This process takes months.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by datavirtue on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:43PM (#33290849)
Government resources are not web scale. They do not and cannot scale except through legislation in some cases.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by pasttense01 on Friday October 21, 2022 @06:38PM (#33293734)
What happens when you do complain? You lose your illegal rental accommodation. This is not a win.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ycombinator_acc on Saturday October 22, 2022 @03:29PM (#33301345)
Are you saying there are no bedbugs in hotels? If so, I have bed news for you.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcculley on Sunday October 23, 2022 @07:46AM (#33306205)
No, that would be silly. I am aware of the risk of bedbugs. I know they are less likely in facilities regulated by local health departments.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by netsharc on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:31AM (#33286896)
Makes me think that there's a market for a 3rd party website for reviews for AirBnB hosts (and probably guests).

But a new host might not get any guests if they don't have a review on this site, and if the guests avoid them, then no one will review them. An idea would be for a host to pay a refundable deposit, and the website could indicate them as so, "We have no reviews for this host, but they have guaranteed with $money that their listing is legitimate/accurate.". After the first review comes, they can get the deposit refunded. But aha, this doesn't protect against fake reviews by friends and accomplices of a dodgy host...

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mudrockbestgirl on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:38AM (#33286953)
It's fundamentally a problem of trust. Hotels and big brands work because you can trust them. Why do you trust them? Because they have skin in the game. If their products suck their brand suffers and that's what they want to avoid the most. If Apple releases crappy products they can't just create a new "BtwNotApple" brand.

In these semi-anonymous marketplaces you fundamentally don't have trust. There is no skin in the game for sellers since their identity and brand is not sticky. If you get banned or do something against the ToS it's not a big deal. Regulation is a possibility, e.g. make people go to jail, but I doubt that works on this scale.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Fnoord on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:16AM (#33287216)
Hmm, I've never used it, but something like Silkroad worked, it did not have trust issues. To me it reads like they try to save pennies on customer support.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Nextgrid on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:37AM (#33287358)
The differences between Silk Road and Airbnb is that the former didn't have lots of investors and techbros to pay returns to, so they could actually offer a fair escrow service and still remain profitable, where as Airbnb has to commit fraud by pitching you an "insurance" service that never actually pays out because doing so would lower or even negate the techbros' returns.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by jkepler on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:31AM (#33287315)
> It's fundamentally a problem of trust.

Absolutely. That's where bitcoin could help a new platform, as a decentralized trust protocol. The bisq.network protocol requires people to put up significant bonds to perform roles that are trusted, and then if they fail to perform well, they can loose some or all of their bond. The bisq token holders (bisq tokens are simply colored satoshis, i.e. they've built functional governance directly on bitcoin) vote monthly on various governance proposals, and can thus hold people doing bonded roles accountable.

The tough question is whether such a system could make to individual apartment rentals in the real world. Its an oracle question: how to you establish the truth of competing claimed about the state if an apartment? Not an easy problem to solve, but if its solveable it could provide an amazing new marketplace.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by moreira on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:00AM (#33287080)
Or review faking services. Ultimately, there's no real good way to trust stuff on the internet based on what "others like you" are saying.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Wowfunhappy on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:59AM (#33287534)
> But a new host might not get any guests if they don't have a review on this site, and if the guests avoid them, then no one will review them.

The new host needs to price their listing substantially below competitors, to the point where some poor bloke is willing to take a risk, in order to build up a review base.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MichaelZuo on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:16AM (#33287681)
But then won't they have to jack up the price, after earning a sufficient threshold of trust, to compensate for the huge losses their making at the beginning?

i.e. price their beds the same as hotels, or higher?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by 988747 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:59AM (#33288063)
No, they can't do that, because, you know, competition. Basically, those few weeks/months of below market rate prices are the cost of bootstrapping your business. Of course, if, over time, you acquire stellar reputation, then you probably can price yourself slightly higher than competitors based on that. But that's very unstable state.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MichaelZuo on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:30AM (#33288351)
Competition from who? Every established, high trust, host will charge at least the minimum viable rate to break even.

Anyone who charges lower then the minimum viable will simply never break even, given that the money spent to accumulate trust has an opportunity cost.

The cheapest hotels will be priced about the same.

Low or zero trust hosts can't compete against high trust folks without a huge discount as already discussed.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Dylan16807 on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:41PM (#33290824)
They will raise their prices until they are in the normal market range.

That's different from jacking up the price "to compensate" for the losses at the start. They just have to eat the initial costs, and it will take a while for normal market profits to put them in the black.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MichaelZuo on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:30PM (#33291422)
No, because money has a time value, the break even rate will be higher because a dollar today is worth more than a dollar a few months from now. It by definition will cause the rates to be higher then they otherwise would be. This might be worth paying for to be guaranteed a high trust host. But that doesn’t the change the fact that the costs are shifted around instead of being reduced overall.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by codexjourneys on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:16AM (#33287676)
Reviews of the hosts are already informally available in the reviews of the rooms and apartments. It's the number-one thing I look for when booking: the reviews should be raving about not only the place, but also the host. If this is not happening, or the reviews are mainly short and neutral, I don't book.

I did get tripped up despite this rule once, when I booked a private room in an apartment and arrived to find the host going on vacation. After he left, a massive mouse infestation stirred up by basement construction the prior week surfaced, and I escaped down several flights of stairs in the dark surrounded by a cacophony of squeaking in the walls. I think a mouse ran over my foot. I have mostly stayed in hotels since.

But I've had many wonderful Airbnb experiences in the past, and I do believe my one terrible experience was an outlier (albeit traumatic). I would have started using it again, but high-quality Airbnb listings exceeded hotels in price in my country, so I stick with hotels, especially since I earned status with some programs.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by elforce002 on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:10AM (#33287162)
My family went to an Airbnb (basically they were selling themselves as sort of resort) and when my wife saw she had to cook, etc... She was really mad. The listing didn't say it. Long history short, never again. We're going to resorts and hotels ever since. The extra money is not that much since Airbnb basically ramping up their prices.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ceejayoz on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:27AM (#33287291)
I’ve never seen an AirBnB listing say you have to cook, because it’s assumed.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nobodyandproud on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:38AM (#33287363)
“BnB” means bed and breakfast, which of course has lost its meaning with Airbnb.

I knew someone whose family ran a small bed-and-breakfast (pre-web).

I don’t think they cooked all 3 meals but they did at least provide breakfast and brownbag lunch.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by respondo2134 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:09AM (#33287622)
Well the "Air" part is for air mattress, which is no longer true, if it ever was. The name was supposed to connotate a very spartan take on a traditional bed-and-breakfast. I've never heard of anyone booking all-inclusive travel through airbnb.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:47AM (#33287950)
In my experience, and I've stayed at a lot of them, BnBs usually have a hot sit down breakfast but it's not universal. I've certainly stayed at BnBs where the host is politely but firmly clear they're not there to entertain you and there will be coffee out in the morning and feel free to grab so yogurt from the fridge. While there is usually fruit and muffins that you can grab for lunch, they don't usually provide a brownbag lunch as such and rarely dinner.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by denton-scratch on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:06PM (#33290421)
I've been to hotels like that: yeah, there's a breakfast room; but breakfast is a plastic cup of coffee, a roll, and a packet of cornflakes.

I hate staying in hotels, but one benefit is getting a nice hot breakfast served to you.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:41PM (#33291569)
The hotels with free breakfasts in the US tend to be pretty crappy buffets. Generally a lot different from what's served at a good BnB. But at least it's something and I'm not inclined to pay for a full breakfast given I don't normally eat one.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by badcppdev on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:43AM (#33287392)
You make it sound like you weren't affected by the need to cook? Do you know how to cook?

Edit: If you weren't on that trip then please accept my apologies.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Loughla on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:45AM (#33287412)
The last two times we traveled, we looked at Airbnb versus hotels. The Airbnb's were all ~$150 for a bedroom in a shared space with shared bathroom/kitchen/living room, or ~1000-~1500 for a house or one floor of a two-story house. The hotel was $325 and $275 for a suite style in both cities.

To me, it's worth it to get consistent quality, guaranteed privacy, no questions about safety, and again, consistency in quality.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by hfbff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:05AM (#33287590)
And I prefer Airbnb because sometimes I can't afford hotels. It means you're richer than me. I'm glad there are offerings for both of us.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by respondo2134 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:11AM (#33287642)
In many markets the prices are very close, once you factor in Airbnb's fees, cleaning services and local taxes/levies. Airbnb is most useful for non-traditional stays, like a cabin at the lake.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by denton-scratch on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:02PM (#33290380)
She was mad because she had to cook? Perhaps she didn't realize it was an AirBnB? I had no idea there were fully-catered AirBnBs.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by specproc on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:20AM (#33287247)
Hotels are great.

They create jobs, they don't distort property markets in the same way as AirBnB, and you get breakfast!

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nobodyandproud on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:43AM (#33287393)
To add to that: Hotels are rightly regulated.

The consumer is naturally disadvantaged: They can’t assess until they arrive, they must reserve in advance, and packing up and going elsewhere is often not an easy option.

Though I’ll add that even regulated hotels can be a hit or miss experience.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bombcar on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:01AM (#33288086)
Hotels are also hilariously taxed, because it's perfect taxation without representation - the people staying at the hotels aren't residents!
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by HWR_14 on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:17PM (#33291272)
They are opting to go to the city. They are literally voting with their dollars to be taxed.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by fruit2020 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:00AM (#33287538)
They are sometimes too small if you go with young kids and want to spend a week or so.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by yamtaddle on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:43PM (#33290083)
Really, in general, any time you want a real "home base" you don't mind spending hours in if, say, some outdoor activity gets rained out, AirBnBs are far nicer than a hotel. Hanging out in a hotel room sucks, hanging out in an AirBnB can be like hanging out at home except... kinda better, in some cases and in some ways.

Or for any getaway kind of situation where the point is mainly to be at the place that you are staying, not necessarily to get out a ton. Hotels are terrible for that, aside, perhaps, from ultra-expensive huge suites (I wouldn't know, I've never tried one, too pricey and I have a suspicion it'd still feel like being in a hotel room).

They're also great in rural areas. Often you can get an AirBnB much closer to some 2nd- or 3rd-rate way-off-the-interstate attraction you're interested in, than a hotel. Otherwise your only options would be camping or an RV.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by datavirtue on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:53PM (#33290985)
There are tons of professionally managed rental companies that have been in operation for decades where you can rent houses. Same price as the "internet" grifters without any bullshit whatsoever.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by VBprogrammer on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:02AM (#33287558)
My sister uses AirBnB quite frequently because her and her partner are both Vegan. Having a kitchen is a big advantage over hotels.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:41AM (#33287905)
There are suite hotels with kitchenettes if that's a priority.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dalyons on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:55AM (#33288648)
Unfortunately suite hotels are usually outrageously expensive
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:00AM (#33288710)
Not really in my experience. For example, Marriott's suite brands are often cheaper than their more upscale standard hotel room brands.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by VBprogrammer on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:21PM (#33289758)
This might be an option in a lot of downtown areas but not on the outskirts of London (the hotels are mostly airport / motel types) or in the middle of nowhere in Scotland where 4 of my sister's previous Airbnb rentals have been.

Her last one was incredible. A lovely little 3 bed home with a hot tub in the garden room.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by denton-scratch on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:52PM (#33290238)
I had to visit my employer in Ottawa (I live in the UK). They booked me into a suite hotel, because there was an international conference in town, and all the smaller rooms were booked.

So I got a huge TV, a kitchenette, a double bedroom with another huge TV, a bathroom with his-and-hers basins, and a single bedroom. The next morning I discovered a second bathroom, like the first; and a utility room with a washer and a dryer.

The problem was they didn't have a bar, so I couldn't get a bottle of wine. But not a big problem; the suite hotel shared a lift with the regular hotel next door. So I would ring the barman at the regular hotel, and he'd meet me on the second floor with my wine.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:06PM (#33290424)
The suite hotels in the US often don't have a bar and limited or no food service at night. Though there are exceptions. (Marriott has been upscaling Residence Inn in many cases--probably because they have so many suite brands after acquiring Sheraton.)
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by lambic on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:08AM (#33287616)
Having stayed in some truly shitty hotels I would have to disagree with this sentiment.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by pessimizer on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:42PM (#33290066)
Stay in better ones?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MikePlacid on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:15AM (#33287664)
> Hotels are great.

You got to be kidding?

Last time I’ve used AirBnb it was a 1 bedroom half of the house, shady, private area with a creek, private yes - but in a walking distance to the downtown. I had a full kitchen, an office place to put my computer and monitor in and a personal, fast Internet connection. I even had a shed to put my bicycle in without a need to drag it into the house. The host configured the lock to be the last digits of my phone number - extremely convenient without a need to carry a piece of paper even to enter.

All that for a hundred dollars a day - same as nearby hotels where you get a crappy little room smelling of disinfectant, just a microwave and a small fridge, and my bike - last time I took my bike to a hotel it was stolen…

> and you get breakfast!

Ok, now I see that you’ve got me.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by throwaway2037 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:24AM (#33287746)
Where was this?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MikePlacid on Saturday October 22, 2022 @10:48AM (#33298738)
Dropped pin Near 5145 Antone Rd, Mariposa, CA 95338 https://goo.gl/maps/oeVqaChM9cRnNXKd6
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by itsoktocry on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:43AM (#33287922)
Some hotels are good/bad. Some Airbnbs are good/bad. Tremendous insight.

Did you even read the article? The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:53AM (#33288003)
I'd add the nuance that you can end up with a pretty crappy experience at a 3+ star chain hotel for whatever reason. Usually though it's something that doesn't matter all that much at the end of the day like a room with minimal natural light.

But generally speaking midrange business hotels are utterly unexciting--which is to say they're predictable which is what I'm looking for from my hotel in general when I travel. I'm probably not there for the hotel experience.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dazc on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:44PM (#33290115)
There is a budget hotel chain in the UK (premierInn) where if you complain you get a free breakfast and if you make your complaint official you will get a full refund. They have remained profitable for many years despite the obvious incentive for people to make unwarranted complaints.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bmj on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:20PM (#33290594)
This, I think, is the critical difference. If I get a hotel room, enter it, and discover anything is out of joint, I can walk downstairs and ask the manager for a refund, or at least a different room. If the same thing happens with an Airbnb, and the host has no interest in helping, you are basically out of luck.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MikePlacid on Saturday October 22, 2022 @10:54AM (#33298788)
If your hotel reservation is not refundable - you are out of your luck. You can potentially get refund from credit card company, as I once did, but the same is available for AirBnb - never tried though, was no need.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MikePlacid on Saturday October 22, 2022 @11:26AM (#33299051)
> Some hotels are good/bad. Some Airbnbs are good/bad. Tremendous insight.

I do not know how you’ve managed to extract that insight from my post. The experience I’ve described with AirBnb is not possible with any hotel, Hyatt included.

> The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.

Take a look at Hyatt San Francisco, for example. See that the ground floor is occupied by some public areas exclusively? So I should either leave my bike in the place where it can be stolen, or to put it into my room via an elevator. Now it’s starting from $285, and $295 give you are a cottage in San Francisco on AirBnb: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/6523507?check_in=2022-11-29&che...

So to be more precise:

- hotels, I can survive then, no prob. I can even survive Hyatt SF with my bicycle.

- AirBnbs give me pleasure. Get up, open the door to the garden, birds chirping, the creek floating, my favorite turnovers in the stove ready in 20 minutes, my laptop connected to Ethernet, my bicycle ready nearby - I can just jump on it and ride… Which of you “nicely regulated” hotels can give me all that?

To be fair, I’ve managed to get some pleasure from a hotel too. Now and then. A different pleasures though. And all of these hotels were in Japan.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bambax on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:10AM (#33288813)
Absolutely. The exception is when you're a large family, or even a not so large one. Most hotels have no good/affordable solution for parties larger than 2.

But when traveling as a couple, or alone as this lady is, there's no reason not to choose a hotel. Much better experience overall, and nowadays usually cheaper as well.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by bmj on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:15PM (#33290530)
We tend to use Airbnbs when road tripping/caravaning with others. It is significantly less expensive than getting two hotel rooms. When its just my spouse and I, we almost always use hotels, because there is far less risk involved (though it is still possible to find hotels that not well-kept).

That said, we've used about two dozen Airbnbs over the years, all in the U.S., and have never stayed in a place that was not exactly what we expected based on the listing.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by r00fus on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:22PM (#33291333)
For over 4 ppl it's insane trying to find a good hotel rental - they're called suites, and they're uncommon and thus often booked or extremely expensive.

I just find a good 4 person room and we make do - or I Airbnb/VRBO.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by gnicholas on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:31PM (#33290722)
> and you get breakfast!

Really? I don't know that this was ever guaranteed, and post-COVID it's definitely not. The ones I've seen are paltry compared to 10 years ago.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by roenxi on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:42AM (#33287391)
> They don't care if they're banned or reported. They'll just make a new fake account. Low ratings? No problem, just pay for some fake reviews.

Sorry, just a quick check - are you saying that rhetorically or do you mean it? Because as far as I know AirBNB relies on getting a genuine address in the system to work, and that is difficult to fake.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by iandanforth on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:18AM (#33287691)
Not hard to fake at all. Here are some of the ways

- Large friends and family network, rotate through other peoples homes

- Own a series of apartment buildings, rotate through addresses

- Unoccupied buildings with accessible mail drops (pick up mail from outside)

Similar tricks exist for non-residential address requirements.

Never underestimate the creativity of scammers.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by sofixa on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:15AM (#33287666)
And genuine government-issued ID, which is also difficult to fake.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by noasaservice on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:23AM (#33287733)
If you know the right people, no it's not.

And these types of scammers are and know the "right" people.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dazc on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#33290168)
Airbnb are not a govt agency and can not tell a genuine document image from one which has been slightly altered.

There is a reason why stolen passports are so valuable.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by hourago on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:57AM (#33287517)
> App Store app reviews, restaurant review apps and food delivery apps. Fortunately it's not a big deal if these are scams. It's just a few dollars.

Tourists traps excel on this niche of scam. They serve bad food at high prices, but quite often not so bad or expensive as to be illegal. The only reason this business exist is because most people would visit them just once, customers are replaced each day with new arriving tourists.

Everybody is a clueless tourist in the sea of Amazon products, applications in the App store or literally on Airbnb. They only need to sell once to a very small percentage of Amazon customers to be very successful, even if they never come back for obvious reasons.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nebula8804 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:24AM (#33287747)
You can't win in this race. Do research in your tourist destination to avoid these places? Well Youtube is full of influencers pushing garbage info, Reddit is being quietly stuffed full of authentic sounding comments and you might as well forget Yelp/Tripadvisor. It seems like a massive scam perpetuated at all levels of the stack.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by aliqot on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:33AM (#33287833)
Holiday!

Inn!

Express!

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by stevenally on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:13AM (#33288181)
Free!

Breakfast!

Clean!

Rooms!

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by pessimizer on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:34PM (#33289956)
A franchise is very comforting. All of those consistent, comfortable minimum standards constantly checked by employees from checklists; the excellent insurance; the ability to speak to someone in charge when something goes wrong and get a nearly instant reply... comforting. When I stay in them, I don't even have to wonder if I'm raising residential rents in the area (although I'm certainly raising commercial ones.)
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by aliqot on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:28PM (#33291397)
You can give me an 80% product, and I won't be impressed. You can give me that same 80% product, but consistently, and I'll be your best customer. AirBNB can be great, but wow they can be very bad, and at the end of the day I'm too old for that type of shit.

Holiday Inn Express might have beds fit for a Baggins, but everything down to the fold of the sheets and the pen/notepad is the same every time, and I cansure appreciate that.

Last AirBNB I was at told me to just not smoke all the 'courtesy items' on the shelf left by previous tenants.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by therealdrag0 on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:54PM (#33291727)
Were your airbnbs at the same price point as a hotel? There can be a big difference between a 60$ and 120$ Airbnb.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by aliqot on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#33292451)
I'd estimate the AirBnB post-fees was roughly 40% higher than HIE post-checkout. I chose to stay there because it was a great location, and like the idea of paying a person rather than a corp. For the record, this was a metro area, there was ample access and selection for corporate alternatives, if anything was not to my liking I'm sure I could have gone somewhere else easily.

Nice people, but just not what everyone might have in mind as far as accommodations go. Or maybe it is, who knows.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by njarboe on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:18AM (#33288233)
People used to buy travel books from known publishers where the author had at least gone to the restaurant or hotel at least once. I haven't bought one in decades, but maybe that is the future.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:30AM (#33288346)
I still buy guidebooks all the time. They're not perfect but there's some reliable curation and the cost is trivial compared to other travel costs.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by d4rti on Monday October 24, 2022 @04:09AM (#33314077)
I've been a big fan of the Lonely Planet travel guides, and it's cheap enough to pick one up for the city - worth it even for just a couple of meals or ideas.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by asveikau on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:04AM (#33288114)
I don't understand how a restaurant being bad at their job, having bad food (a subjective assessment) and charging a high amount is a "scam". That just sounds like a bad restaurant.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by vishnugupta on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:21AM (#33288252)
You have nailed this. I have been pondering about such anonymous marketplaces and I came to similar conclusion as yours.

In a non-tourist marketplace you get lots of repeat customers and not too many inflow of new customers. So merchants are highly incentivised to provide decent quality service/product. If not then they won't get repeat customers and there aren't too many new customers to keep their business running. There's also a kind of word of mouth review. So chances of fake products and scammers is quite low.

Tourist markets on the other hand are exact opposite for reason you have already explained. And an online marketplace is essentially a tourist marketplace. There's a good reason Apple is so ruthless about Appstore moderation. They don't want it to turn into an Amazon like marketplace. The irony is Amazon's unique selling point was that they are not Ebay in that they would vouch for the quality of goods being sold there. But now in search of profit Amazon has become Ebay. And this is how every online marketplace will be I have seen way too many of them.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by humanistbot on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#33290486)
Amazon customers have the benefit of free returns, pretty much no questions asked within 30 days. I want to buy some commodity like an AC adapter or an SD card, I'll buy 3 or 4 different options and usually at least 1 of them will be OK, then I'll return the rest. If I only need 1 item and have multiple that work fine, I'll give positive reviews to the ones I return, which I feel is the least I can do for the seller.

With AirBNB and tourist traps, there are no refunds and the nature of the sale/service means you often can't find an alternative if you've decided to take the loss.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nebula8804 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:21AM (#33287719)
Ever since the worker shortage started, the quality of traditional hotels has gone down the hole. I have traveled far more this year than any other year in my life and my anecdotal experience shows that below 4 star the quality has just nosedives so much so that you don't know what you are getting until you show up and end up feeling lucky or totally screwed. And I am referring to hotels in America(Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Detroit) and Europe/UK(Amsterdam, Dublin, London).
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by 988747 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:52AM (#33287993)
I spent vacations in California this year, and noticed the same: housekeeping is every 5 days instead of everyday, hotel bars/restaurants are either closed or turned into fast foods (menu consists only of burgers, sandwiches and salads), amenities like gyms are closed. And all that for prices that are significantly higher than before the pandemic.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:55AM (#33288022)
Hotels have definitely cut back on servicing rooms. Although honestly? I not infrequently stay in "serviced apartments" that are only cleaned once a week. And that's just fine. The housekeeper is more likely to interrupt me to clean the room than provide a service I actually care about.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by zucked on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:03PM (#33290381)
I'm with you - I don't need (or even want, really) my room cleaned every day. It's friggin annoying. I always happen to be needing to access the room when housekeeping is in there. Just come once every 3-5 days if it comes to that, thanks.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by astura on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:18PM (#33295095)
Housekeeping is now largely "upon request" with sometimes a minimum and I absolutely love that. I don't really care for housekeeping everyday, I'll let them know if I need anything. I don't know of any hotel that will refuse to send housekeeping everyday if you request it. You just need to request it.

I've been staying at the same a hotel every few months for the last four years, even during 2020. The last time I checked in instead of saying "let us know when you want housekeeping" like they have for the last 3 years; they started saying "what's your preferred housekeeping interval?" I think that's a better system to ask than question.

The only slight downside for me is that if I'm in a room for a while the toilet paper can start to run low, but that's fixed with a text to the front desk.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by rsj_hn on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:06PM (#33295327)
That's not my experience. The last two hotels I stayed at -- Doubletree Hilton in Dallas and Shelborne in Miami -- had daily housekeeping without any request. But perhaps that's just a fluke. Maybe it depends on which city you are visiting, too.

Interestingly when I was looking up the info on the Doubletree, they mentioned something about housekeeping every X days (not every day), but when I arrived, it was daily. I didn't make any request for it, it could be that the website is just out of date, as I suspect this is more about staffing than anything else.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:23AM (#33287734)
But it's also Airbnb themselves. It's well known that negative reviews are scrubbed and even edited, this is something many people including myself have experienced. Any doubts, spend some time on the Airbnb subreddit, which is run by hosts, and check out both their attitudes and their advice about how to remove bad reviews.

Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.

I used to love Airbnb and used it multiple times per year - since Day 1. Now because of fake positive reviews (where negative aspects of a home, like noise, are censored), combined with crazy fees, I'm also like you going back to hotels.

You have to love the fees, which I think are sinking the system. 130 a night for the place, you want to stay there three nights. You're asked to pay 250 in Airbnb fees and 225 in cleaning fees. You should check in after 2 pm and you better check out before 11, and anything out of the ordinary leads to an uncomfortable email exchange sometimes with no reply. It's not cancellable, either.

Many people bought properties around the world to specifically Airbnb out. Will the tide finally turn? Is the business model unsustainable?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by boringg on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:26AM (#33287757)
Hopefully those properties will come back on the market at a reasonable price so that we can offset some of the housing inequity that airbnb is directly responsible for.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:43AM (#33287918)
Seriously. I can only hope the tide is turning and these AirBnBs will be back in the hands of the people who actually live in the cities. Sadly corporations will probably eat them up and let, though hopefully as long-term instead of short!
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by berkes on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:14AM (#33288195)
> will be back in the hands of the people who actually live in the cities.

There apparently is a real demand to rent such places for short terms like holidays or trips. Banning AirBnB, or AirBnB going down, won't remove that demand.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:19AM (#33288241)
No, but it'll force them to go to places that are actually planned to accommodate them. Tourists are included in city planning, believe it or not, but they're not expected to be taking up the actual residential places of the city. That's why areas are zoned for hotels and there's regulation around them.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by scarby2 on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#33289162)
> Tourists are included in city planning

The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels. There's a huge demand for what AirBnB provides (Serviced and short term accommodation). Hotels are inadequate for longer stays or where you just want the comforts of home, a good middle ground is the "serviced apartment" concept found in some places (entire apartment blocks reserved for short term rentals) however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by wcarron on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:05PM (#33289542)
> a good middle ground is the "serviced apartment" concept found in some places (entire apartment blocks reserved for short term rentals)

You mean a hotel? Hotels are not inadequate for longer stays. If someone desires the comforts of a home, they can move there and actually rent/buy a home.

> The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels.

This is a werid entitlement. Tourists aren't entitled to overrun and impose a serious negative impact upon a town/city's housing supply because they feel like they 'deserve' to vacation there.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by jamiegreen on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:35PM (#33289963)
>You mean a hotel? Hotels are not inadequate for longer stays. If someone desires the comforts of a home, they can move there and actually rent/buy a home.

What about a middle ground. If I go somewhere for 2-4 weeks? For that length of time I kind of want a proper kitchen, which I won't get in a hotel, but obviously it is not long enough to actually rent/buy a home.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:39PM (#33290026)
>What about a middle ground. If I go somewhere for 2-4 weeks? For that length of time I kind of want a proper kitchen, which I won't get in a hotel, but obviously it is not long enough to actually rent/buy a home.

Not everywhere but at least in the US suite hotels with small kitchens are pretty common. Most of the big chains have one or more suite hotel brands. (Though honestly I not infrequently travel for 2-3 weeks and, while I definitely appreciate a refrigerator I pretty much never find I need a full kitchen.)

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by archagon on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:06PM (#33291127)
Yeah, for exorbitant amounts of money.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:16PM (#33291255)
Compared to what? I'm staying in a Residence Inn in a week for basically the same price as the nearby standard Marriott and Sheraton are. And Residence Inn is probably on the higher end of the big chain suite brands. They're not budget but they're squarely in the same range as midrange business hotels in general. They're generally what I book if they're a good option.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by archagon on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:19PM (#33291301)
I’ve routinely found that Airbnbs are about 1/2 the price of hotels, with more amenities and classier design to boot, no matter where I visit (assuming Airbnbs are legal there).

$300 or more a day is beyond the pale IMO.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dahfizz on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:48PM (#33291655)
> I not infrequently travel for 2-3 weeks and, while I definitely appreciate a refrigerator I pretty much never find I need a full kitchen.

I'm guessing you're a high income individual with no kids then?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by wcarron on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:18PM (#33291287)
This is exactly the entitlement I am speaking of. You want to go somewhere for an extended period. You want a proper kitchen. Your expectation is that the residents of a town or TheMarket should just... accomodate your desires? Regardless of their housing market, QoL, infrastructure, etc.?

Sheesh, jamie. I typically eschew using this term, but someone taking a 2-4 week vacation is already highly privileged to be able to do so. Tourism is a privilege. Not a right.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by jamiegreen on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:40PM (#33292802)
So much judgement in one post.

1. I am not saying the market/residents have to accommodate anything, I am simply stating my preference that if I have to travel for 5+ days I would rather have a full kitchen. If the residents don’t want to provide it, fine. If many other people feel as I do, then that’s kind of what markets are for.

2. I don’t typically take 2-4 week vacations, but I sometimes do travel for work for extended periods.

I recognise being able to travel at all is a privilege but having a personal preference for a full kitchen I don’t really think warrants such a judgemental response.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Nextgrid on Saturday October 22, 2022 @09:29AM (#33298153)
Well, he wants and he is willing to pay, it's not like he's demanding it for free. The residents should and the town should price it accordingly so that both sides benefit from the deal.

Following your logic, going to the bakery to buy bread instead of making it myself is "entitled" and disregards the baker's quality of life since he'd be much more comfortable sleeping than waking up at 5am to start preparing the bread.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by wcarron on Saturday October 22, 2022 @04:39PM (#33302012)
No, that was not my logic. You substituted your own. My argument is that under no circumstances is any entity 'required' to accomodate your desired market conditions. There are existing markets (i.e hotels) that towns/cities/whatevers provide. The mere desire from a consumer (or even massive group of them) does not oblige others to service that desire. And, the expectation that those desires are always met is the entitlement.

Many markets have demand, but society prevents their legal existence. For example, organ trades. I'm sure a lot of alcoholics would love just being able to go get a new liver whenever they want or when theirs fails. However, the... issues that creates have been deemed unacceptable and therefore, it's not allowed (obviously, it still happens illegally).

Some people want AirBnBs so they can have all the accoutrements of a home wherever they travel. Other people do not want such a market to exist, for a variety of reasons. I don't think that simply because an economic opportunity exists, it should be serviced or be allowed to be serviced. Obviously, advertisers want to increased the amount and effectiveness of their ads. FaceBook and Google would block out the sky and plaster it with ads if they could. Should they be allowed to?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MichaelCollins on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:29PM (#33290700)
Most hotel rooms don't have kitchens. It's not unreasonable to want a kitchen if you're staying somewhere for a week or two. But expecting those people to buy or lease a home is unreasonable. Short-term rental of homes is the solution to this.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcguire on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#33291113)
It's called a residential hotel, and they're all over the place where business travelers stay by the day, week, or month.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartment_hotel

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:35PM (#33291497)
It might be the solution to that, but it creates a lot more problems for the actual residents of the city. Drives up their rent, lowers their supply, makes them have to deal with neighbours coming in at all hours of the night, often without a care for the fact they even have neighbours who have to wake up and go to work in the morning. Ruins any community in a place. All the negative externalities get hoisted onto the actual residents of a town.

Now, should there maybe be an area of the city explicitly for short-term rentals, included in city planning? That's a different question; but it shouldn't be mixed in normal residential area, as all it does is make life worse for the actual residents.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by astura on Friday October 21, 2022 @06:43PM (#33293765)
They make hotels for extended stays with kitchens - Homewood Suites, Embassy Suites, and Candlewood Suites are the big chains.

I lived in a Homewood Suites for three months. It was fine.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by marssaxman on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:11PM (#33294292)
AirBnB homes are so much nicer than those sterile corporate chains. It is not the same experience.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Saturday October 22, 2022 @05:31AM (#33296775)
So, again, it comes down to the entitlement felt by travellers.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by marssaxman on Saturday October 22, 2022 @08:51AM (#33297919)
Not sure what you think my point was or how that remark relates to it.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcculley on Saturday October 22, 2022 @02:19PM (#33300672)
I prefer my linens to be sterile.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by HWR_14 on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:45PM (#33290126)
> tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning

Alternatively, tourists are unhappy that people in some areas don't want unlimited numbers of them and account for them properly with zoning restrictions.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:13PM (#33290513)
No, they are accounted for. The issue is entitlement on the side of tourists -- thinking they should have access to all the local amenities and stuff they do at home, while on vacation. This was a problem, but it was never a huge problem, from how I understand it, before AirBnB. Basically AirBnB changed the expectations for tourists, at the harm of the local communities.

> however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.

It's not your home, why should you deserve a house over someone who lives there?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by archagon on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:09PM (#33291161)
If a local wants to open their home to me, even if it’s a second home, why should that make me feel “entitled” to enjoy a taste of local life? (Ignoring Airbnb slumlords, which should probably be fought with regulation and/or Airbnb policy changes.)
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:33PM (#33291458)
There's rules and regulations against it, for one. Should locals be allowed to do whatever they want on their property with no regards to how it will impact neighbours and local economy? There's a reason we have zoning laws, etc, in place. There's lots of things we stop locals from doing because it's for the better of the community as a whole, and renting out short-term to tourists should be one (and, again, it sometimes already is but AirBnB allows them to skirt the regulations).
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by archagon on Saturday October 22, 2022 @12:20AM (#33295644)
Locals should absolutely have the right and power to change their local laws to prohibit Airbnb. However, I'm not going to feel guilty for using Airbnb in places where it's legal, because it's simply a better product than hotels by a long shot (when it works).
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dorchadas on Saturday October 22, 2022 @05:35AM (#33296788)
I'd be willing to bet that in most places they're not legal, there's just nobody enforcing it. They're willfully in violation of a lot of rules and regulations that are already in place. And harming the locals so entitled tourists can think they're at home.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by cudgy on Saturday October 22, 2022 @02:52PM (#33301000)
What about what the neighbors of the local’s home want? Do you want new neighbors every few days moving in to your neighbor’s house? Wouldn’t you be worried about your family‘s safety given the velocity of people going in and out of your neighbor’s house?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mcguire on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:03PM (#33291093)
Technically, the reason AirBnB exists is that if you aren't paying for most of the "serviced" part, including obeying the city planning and safety regulations, you can rent a property for less than an actual hotel and still make a lot of money.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:44AM (#33288501)
There's a real demand, but at one point the cost becomes too steep.

The cleaning and service fees are being universally complained about. It definitely reduced some demand, especially since some of it seemed to have started recently - last year ?

For long weekends, it becomes a very bad deal: the overhead of big service fees that are usually more than 1 day's rental, then you tack on the cleaning which can be 125-225 typically. You put those numbers together and sure, while there's demand, the demand is mitigated by the high cost. There's a demand for all sorts of consumer items in the world but people hit their limits.

And fundamentally, Airbnb competes with hotels. Their niche is to provide a better hotel experience: a bigger space, maybe a backyard, and definitely a kitchen. But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:58AM (#33288676)
>There's a demand for all sorts of consumer items in the world but people hit their limits.

That's the thing with a lot of VC-subsidized services. There are a lot of services that consumers would be happy to, well, consume if they were cheap enough. Drivers, personal chefs, weekly housekeepers, lawn services, laundry pickup, etc. Even people with an upper middle class income are pretty selective about that sort of thing.

>But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.

Kitchens are not a big deal for me when I travel. A fridge is nice but you get a small one you can use a lot of the time in hotels these days and minibars seem to have mostly gone out of fashion.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by scarby2 on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:43AM (#33289235)
> Kitchens are not a big deal for me when I travel. A fridge is nice but you get a small one you can use a lot of the time in hotels these days and minibars seem to have mostly gone out of fashion.

For me this is true if I'm traveling for < 1 week If I'm gone for more than that i don't want to eat every meal out and want to have some food + drink stored in my accommodation.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by yCombLinks on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:10PM (#33291170)
With 3 kids every meal at a restaurant is closer to $50 than $10, it adds up fast. Then getting 3 kids to sit down and not embarrass you! And then one isn't hungry! I love what airBnB could be. What it is right now sucks. The kitchen / whole house is a big deal. Just walking outside for a few minutes at a real house is a big relaxer that's a lot less manageable at a hotel.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:20PM (#33291306)
I can certainly see with a family. I just personally don't use kitchens when traveling even when available.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:15PM (#33290537)
>cleaning which can be 125-225 typically

I agree with your point. Cleaning fees tend to make it hard to consider AirBnB for a weekend. That said, assuming the host doesn't just do it themselves, they're going to get a housekeeper in, rates are up for that sort of service, and that's about what it costs.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:27PM (#33291385)
Then display it in the search criteria in the initial filter on the map view, instead of only when someone has selected the property and begins filling in dates.

It's a bait and switch by selecting which UI components are displayed in that search screen, and hiding the added costs ("service fee" and "cleaning fee").

Also, unlike a hotel an Airbnb host will give you a list of items to do upon leaving. And often passive-aggressively, "And it would be appreciated if you could put the towels and sheets in the washing machine for one wash as you leave so it's less work for the cleaning person" type commentary.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:37PM (#33292180)
I hate it generally when booking something doesn't make the final bottom line price obvious until you're ready to pay. Rental cars are another bad offender with all the taxes and fees.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mbreese on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:59AM (#33288693)
VRBO existed before Airbnb, and I’m sure it will exist for quite a while longer. The concept isn’t the issue.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by lifeformed on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:47AM (#33288547)
> 225 in cleaning fees

Ah yes, and then you read in the notes that you also have to do the laundry and wash the dishes.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by slivanes on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:03AM (#33288741)
Doing the dishes seems reasonable, I behave as a guest in an Airbnb.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:11AM (#33288826)
If there's a $150 cleaning fee? Not really. Sure, I'll throw a few dishes in a dishwasher and run it. But it's not like I'm staying in a friend's condo for free.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by thepasswordis on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:23AM (#33288978)
Do you charge guests in your home $100/night to stay there?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by slivanes on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:50PM (#33290198)
I wonder if this is a chicken/egg thing? Host are charging this silly fee because guests were not cleaning up after themselves?

Like at a cafe, it's socially accepted that you put away (bus) your finished utensils.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by HeyLaughingBoy on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:43PM (#33290848)
More than likely but that's not the point. If I stay at a hotel and I don't clean up after myself, I won't get charged a fee.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by lostlogin on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#33291117)
Just making sure I’m understanding you, at cafes where you live you clear your own dishes?

I haven’t encountered this before.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:25PM (#33291359)
You don't do your own dishes but it's common with counter service to put them in a designated container and to throw your trash out.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by lostlogin on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:49PM (#33292880)
That what I mean - I haven’t encountered this.

I’m way down in New Zealand.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MichaelCollins on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:34PM (#33290756)
There are almost certainly automatic machines for both of those. Throwing the sheets and dishes into the washers before leaving on your last day isn't an unreasonable request. It only takes a few minutes.

(That said, fining somebody hundreds of dollars for not doing that is unreasonable for the same reason that the request is reasonable; because it's an easy thing to do.)

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:31PM (#33291440)
The question of reasonableness cuts both ways: the high cost for the Airbnb unit plus the added fees including the cleaning ones, and the lists of guest to-do items upon check-out. The two combine and quick it becomes the feeling that you're paying a lot more than a hotel and yet have a lot more servicing to do yourself. If there is a very high cleaning fee, it becomes increasingly unreasonable to ask a lot of your guests to spend time cleaning everything before they leave.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by Ayesh on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:56AM (#33288653)
Yeah, I almost never consider an Airbnb nowadays for these extra costs. Hotels do this too (with city tax for example), but that is just a few extra dollars a night, and not almost as high as the cost per night.

I think the original spirit of someone renting out extra space they have is long gone. It's either a big company renting out what could have been rental units in the first place, or someone renting their place but you have to almost beg them to be flexible with timing, amenities, etc. I would feel much more comfortable complaining to a hotel if the beds are dirty, as opposed to an Airbnb host.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by makestuff on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:03AM (#33288746)
Well and I don't have to do chores at a hotel. AirBnB says pay us $200 for a cleaning fee but make sure to take the sheets off the bed, cut the grass, and paint the walls before you leave.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by throwayyy479087 on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:20PM (#33290593)
I got a negative review on a property that charged a $250 cleaning fee for washing the dishes but not putting them away
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by tediousdemise on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:11AM (#33288827)
I bet someone on Hacker News can set up a website that mirrors AirBnB reviews as they are posted. This would prevent revisionism.

They can slap vacation ads on it and now they have a stable source of income!

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:33PM (#33291462)
That's an excellent idea. I'd even consider paying a subscription for it (assuming I used Airbnb again, which I might with this service).

Could Airbnb challenge it legally though?

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by lobocinza on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:31PM (#33292121)
They will allege that reviews on the platform are Airbnb's copyright.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by dylan604 on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:21AM (#33288955)
>It's well known that negative reviews are scrubbed and even edited

If this is true, then I see no other blame than Airbnb themselves. If you make a platform allowing reviews in such a way that the "seller" can edit the reviews "users" make, then that's never going to become anything other than scammy. Even allowing a review to be scrubbed/removed by the seller is bad. There should be a mechanism to work with the platform to handle fake/false reviews, but the seller should never be able to do that on their own.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by iudqnolq on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:44PM (#33290112)
They have a long list of things you can't complain about. One example is things that the seller can't change, like a loud train nearby. At least when I last used it if a single sentence in your review violated one of those policies your whole review was deleted and you couldn't submit a new one.

Interestingly their dispute process is very buyer-friendly, though. When a seller demands money in compensation for damage they often lose. I believe this is because Airbnb is on the hook if they can't collect from the buyer.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:14PM (#33289659)
While I broadly agree with what you've written here, I think that:

> Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.

is not a useful way to think about this. AirBnb lives in a sort of weird parasitic-symbiotic relationship with both its hosts and the "guests". They are not trying to sell "guests" to anyone (they may do data collection and sale, but I think this not the cornerstone of their business model): what they rely on is an abundant supply of matching properties (not hosts!) and "guests". The hosts as people are irrelevant. If they lose "guests", less revenue. If they lose properties/listings, less revenue.

> Is the business model unsustainable?

The original AirBnb model (people renting spare rooms in their own homes, or maybe a casita on their property) was sustainable, but growth-limited. I don't know about the current one.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by datavirtue on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:51PM (#33290219)
It's a scam. Plain and simple. VRBO is worse.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mancerayder on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:46PM (#33294540)
Why is VRBO worse?
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:36AM (#33287852)
It's also exacerbated by a lot of people looking for a bargain however slight.

Historically, B&Bs (in the sense of a small inn as opposed to a spare room) were not really cheaper than more traditional hotels and most of the entire houses listed on VRBO weren't wither (although they might have been better choices for a family or group).

I suspect a lot of people who have consistently bad experiences on AirBnB (and Amazon for that matter) also consistently pick the lowest price even if it's a bargain that seems too good to be true.

One of the benefits of chain hotels is consistency. The experience is almost always going to be somewhere from very good to good to mediocre depending on the brand (which correlates with price). They'll rarely be exquisite but that's fine most of the time. I'm rarely traveling for the hotel experience.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nlh on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:08AM (#33288153)
You make a great point about the (de)evolution of marketplaces.

Does anyone have any thoughts about how marketplace operations could prevent this sort of race to the bottom rot? It does kind of feel like an inevitability these days and I wonder if there’s a real solution.

I suppose part of the problem is that the growth-at-all-costs mentality exists in conflict of quality-at-all-costs. Maybe the answer is just to stay small and niche, which enables quality control without scaling issues.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by asciimov on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:26AM (#33288311)
Regulations.

Put regulations on the Market Places to tighten up their process for accepting new sellers, and direct punishment of the Market Places themselves for selling bad products. These Market Places have no skin in the game when it comes to the stuff they sell, they need a reason to care. If they care, these problems start to sort themselves out.

For example, instead of just fining the AirBNB host for an illegal rental, they should also fine AirBNB say $50k per rental. Something high enough that they do their own verification of product. Or fine Amazon a similar amount every time they send out a fake SD card.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ugjka on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:38AM (#33288435)
Fines that aren't a joke would do the trick
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by MaxMatti on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:02AM (#33288732)
Or just have a lower fine that increases exponentially every time it occurs. That would make it easier for small companies to compete which would otherwise just have to go bankrupt on the first violation.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by mudrockbestgirl on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:42AM (#33288482)
I think you need to consider both parties:

1. The incentives of the platform

2. The incentives of the individual

For 1, a big part of the problem is the growth-at-all-costs mindset coming from VC incentives. In this case, having more hosts and deleting bad reviews directly helps the platform because it increases the market size and short-term profitability. You could argue that it hurts in the long-term when quality drops to unacceptable levels, but most companies don't care about that. Founders have already exited and executives have gotten paid. Also, by not growing quickly you're vulnerable to competitors that do grow more quickly. The only solution that comes to mind is to not have for-profit entities where founders/VC get rich behind these kind of platforms. It needs to be fully community-driven.

For 2, I think it's about skin in the game and trust. In many industries you can't go out and scam people without facing serious consequences. On these online platform you can, but you don't face real consequences. It's just another ban. Regulation with serious fines or jail time is one solution. Another solution is a (hypothetical) world where online identity is connected across services and tied to your real identity. Imagine getting a bad review on Airbnb actually has real-life consequences because it's tied to your identity. Perhaps that's what you get with the CCP, where people's online accounts for many services are associated with their government identities. I'm not saying these are desirable solutions, but they certainly would deter hosts from trying to game the system.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by macspoofing on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:24AM (#33288287)
>After the initial phase of early adopters that offer generally high quality products, a flood of fake or low-quality listing tries to squeeze money out of the platform.

That AND at some point the platform stops subsidizing the service with investment cash - so inevitably the prices rise.

>How to deal with it? Personally I've started going back to hotels to be safe.

I think it will reach some steady state, where there is a niche for traditional hotels and "P2P" rental marketplaces.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by site-packages1 on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:08AM (#33288790)
I’m an early adopter of things like this and I’ve been using Airbnb since about Day 1. There was so much promise early. One of my best AirBnB memories was staying at a startup hotel in SF through AirBnB, the hosts had purchased a Victorian house to turn into a boutique hotel, seemed young and optimistic, and it was a fun, quirky experience. There was still construction and things happening, apparently we were one of the first few people to ever stay there under its new ownership.

So I’ve been using Airbnb regularly, travel regularly, and in the last 2ish years have moved all my work travel to Marriott. For scale, checking my Marriott app right now, I’ve stayed 77 nights in Marriotts this year so far. This used to be all Airbnb stays, but as you mention the hosts have become so unpredictable and listings do not match up to the experience that it’s more hassle and actively hostile to stay in Airbnb in a new city to get to know some quirky neighborhood on a work trip. And the usual complaint of basically a chore list to do at the end combined with huge cleaning fees on top of the chore list.

Currently my only Airbnb exception is that my partner and I have two airbnbs that we know to be good in resort towns and when we’re going there we book those Airbnbs if available, because they have known good experiences and good hosts. Otherwise we don’t even look at other options, particularly because we use those during vacations where we want to relax, and instead just book Four Seasons or whatever nice hotel is there because the experience will be good and consistent.

I really yearn for the early Airbnb days though when listings were more accurate and high quality and one could explore a new neighborhood (perhaps one without traditional hotels one might never stay in without Airbnb).

As an aside, I started using UberEats since literal Day 1 when they were driving circles around the city with a fixed menu, you selected your meal, one of them would drop it off to you within minutes. It was amazing. But now of course the hordes have descended and it’s 90% ghost kitchens serving slop in my city.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by ghaff on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:16AM (#33288876)
If I'm traveling on business I mostly just want predictability. I might want somewhere I can leave my bag after I check out. I want to be able to get in at midnight if my flight is delayed.

Sure I like less sanitized experiences and I'll roll the dice a bit more on vacation--and it usually works out. But for routine business travel I'll do without the variables.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by pjc50 on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:23AM (#33288984)
> After the initial phase of early adopters that offer generally high quality products, a flood of fake or low-quality listing tries to squeeze money out of the platform.

See "We become what we behold" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33273640 and https://ncase.me/trust/ from the first comment. A high trust society, or marketplace, is an opportunity for the defectors to extract value. Unless they can be punished somehow ...

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by trap_goes_hot on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:44PM (#33290097)
Chain-of-trust

The problem you've described applies to a lot of stuff, from hiring to finding a reliable mechanic. I've started relying more on word-of-mouth, whenever possible. Let someone else waste their money trying out new products/services.

Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by astrostl on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:51PM (#33290954)
Interesting take. I'll be thinking about that. I wonder how much aggressive and active curation and validation might improve things.
Re:Airbnb Failed – Illegal Host, Electric Shocks, Slugs, Lea... by nfca on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:20PM (#33291310)
Accountability, responsibility and minimum standards. Hotels provide these, Airbnb does not. Hotels are direct service providers; Airbnb is a middle-man which does not assume responsibility nor enforces minimum standards effectively.

These are the reasons I have also long since returned to use of hotels.