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Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by iepathos on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:38PM (#33099528)
Or it's a very good thing for keeping tensions under control with both countries benefiting drastically from keeping the relationship functional.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by kbenson on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:53PM (#33099763)
I suspect that as you approach being entirely dependent on on supplier it goes from being a nice lever for each side to being a noose for one. China doesn't want to lose Apple's business. Apple can't lose China. Extrapolate across many industries.

There's a difference between having a partner and being entirely dependent.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by yongjik on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:17PM (#33101330)
Isn't this comparing, umm, apples and oranges? China doesn't want to lose Apple's business. China can't lose all business relationship with America (or maybe it can, but it will be extremely painful), which is what will likely happen if China invades Taiwan.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by varispeed on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:40PM (#33101552)
You are trying to look at it from a rational person point of view with your own biases, but the other side may think entirely differently. For instance, they may come to a conclusion that they have enough know how to go their own way. Feed some nationalist delusions, discouragement of critical thinking growing over the years and the nation may believe this is actually achievable. Then they may think the attack on Taiwan is just the right thing to do and if "imperialist America" does not like it, they can eat their Apple themselves. Etc. If anything, such intertwining of economies may actually prevent countries willing to help the attacked side from doing anything apart from token gestures out of fear their supply chains get destroyed. After all why should they care about some island thousands miles away, whereas if they weren't in any way dependent they could have rushed to help.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by makeitdouble on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:07PM (#33103147)
It becomes pretty hard to do business or build internation relationships when you assume that the other side will stop being rational at any point in time.

Imagine it from the other side of the table: would any country rely on US companies for their OS or business tools if tomorrow the US could start a war against them ?

That's a possibility that is never frown away, and any countries with enough resources will make efforts to mitigate it, but that can't be the base assumption behind the relationship.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by 9dev on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:47PM (#33104160)
Hah, funny you bring that issue up. When Trump was president, indeed other countries regarded the USA as having stopped being rational. I can’t even begin to tell you how bewildering it was to watch that shitshow from over the pond — let alone the storming of the capitol, and Trump not being declared an enemy of the people after. That was the lowest point in your history. There was just so much lost that day.

What’s worse, when he’ll inevitably be elected again, our trust in the US as a partner will be gone completely.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Gud on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:19AM (#33107839)
Not a trump supporter, but in both Russia and China he appears to have been spot on, where everyone else has been wrong. Remember his so called ties to Russia? He even warned Germany not be reliant on them for gas, while they snickered at him.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by antupis on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:46PM (#33104159)
This exact thing happened Putin and see how it is going in the end Europe is doing ok and Russia is actually collapsing.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by NeverFade on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:54PM (#33104204)
If Russia will "collapse" economically (so far it hasn't, not really) it won't be just because their relations with Europe broke down, but because a united front that includes Europe, but also the US, Canada, Australia, and most of their allies has all decided to impose sanctions.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by koonsolo on Thursday October 06, 2022 @01:22AM (#33104663)
Russia's economy is mainly export to Europe (>50%). Asia comes second. The Americas only account for about 6%.

Of course sanctions on export to Russia will also be felt, but not as much as losing the money of Europe.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by zarzavat on Thursday October 06, 2022 @07:11AM (#33106809)
Yes but much of Russia’s exports are commodities, which are traded on a global market. If Russia loses Europe, they can find other buyers. They may have to adjust the price, but they will still be able to sell to somebody.

It’s different from China which is exporting far more finished goods. If America stops buying high end electronics from Chinese factories and starts buying from Vietnamese factories, then those exports just vanish from China’s economy. There is no backup America to buy the goods to keep the factories running.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by philistine on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:59AM (#33107654)
The logic of the sanctions is that in the long term they prevent Russia from profitably exporting by denying them any imports to improve their productivity.

In simpler terms, how can you just switch to a different market when the pump to make the gaz is unavailable to you.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by xwolfi on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:37PM (#33102973)
Well I m in China myself so unlike the person you re replying to, it's not just a bias but my entire life depending on not invading Taiwan. Nobody here or in other cities I know wants to invade Taiwan: people think it's already Chinese anyway, and it's just a political disagreement (ofc in TW they think otherwise and I agree with them to an extent: they re a country but they built all their identity on being "the true China").

Our dependency on the US, but also Japan, India, the EU and to some extent the rest of the world is bound to force us to keep a slow grind rather than blatant violence. At least outside of China.

I know Russia disproved the theory: they were dependent on the EU and fuck it all up anyway but... Russia then proceeded to prove the disaster it is for the country, the people and even the war: you cant win territory easily by murdering blindly left and right your commercial partners and your cultural cousins and unlike what some may believe, even some past expansion had to be based on mutual interest to last.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:58PM (#33103096)
> they re a country but they built all their identity on being "the true China"

Huh?

I think it's the CCP that did that, not Taiwan...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by thristian on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:32PM (#33103295)
Before 1949, the Republic of China controlled both mainland China and the island of Taiwan.

After the communist revolution, the government of the RoC retreated to Taiwan. The communists called their government the People's Republic of China.

Both the RoC and the PRC agree that mainland China and the island of Taiwan are "China", and they both agree that one government should be in control. They just disagree on which government that should be.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:42PM (#33103350)
> Both the RoC and the PRC agree that mainland China and the island of Taiwan are "China", and they both agree that one government should be in control. They just disagree on which government that should be.

That’s not entirely true; the coalition led by the KMT in Taiwan agrees with the PRC on the One China issue, the (currently governing) DPP led coalition does not and views Taiwan as already independent and territorially distinct from the PRC, and does not accept the One China idea.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ayewo on Thursday October 06, 2022 @01:39AM (#33104752)
You are not really disagreeing with the GP. Your reply provides the context behind which parties are in disagreement in the GP’s last sentence which you quoted in your reply:

“They just disagree on which government that should be.”

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:54AM (#33108171)
> You are not really disagreeing with the GP.

Yes, I am.

GP claims: Both the RoC and the PRC agree that mainland China and the island of Taiwan are "China", and they both agree that one government should be in control. They just disagree on which government that should be. This is false. The PRC believes that, and the RoC, currently, does not.

In more detail, the RoC’s KMT/pan-Blue coalition agrees with the PRC that the two are one China but disagrees on which government should be in charge. But, while they governed the RoC exclusively before free elections and intermittently since, they aren’t the RoC or its currently governing faction.

The DPP/pan-Green coalition, which has been dominant for several years in the RoC disagrees with the KMT and PRC and sees the PRC and RoC as two separate, geographically distinct states.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by friedman23 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:40PM (#33101545)
> China can't lose all business relationship with America

And America can't afford to lose business with China. So China will make the calculation that it can get away with an invasion of Taiwan.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by qwytw on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:16PM (#33101908)
Will they also include the fact that it's extremely hard to execute a naval invasion without absolute air and sea superiority in that calculation? They would probably do worse than Russia did in Ukraine even without direct American involvement. China could only feasibly annex Taiwan peacefully (at least in the foreseable future)
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jamiek88 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:43PM (#33102159)
The window for China to successfully execute an amphibious assault on Taiwan is closed.

It would be a cluserfuck of the highest order.

It would also be telegraphed years in advance just by the sheer number of troops and landing craft needed and they would not have air or naval superiority in any realistic scenario.

Taiwan is heavily defended.

Taiwan can be destroyed (nukes) but cannot be annexed by force in any realistic assessment of capability.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwaway2037 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:08PM (#33103159)
I think a naval blockade is most likely. If they block all ships in and out (except food), then the Taiwan economy will crumble. Taiwan will be forced to negotiate for a peaceful annexation. Also, they will take the islands very close to Fujian province on Day One. Just like Russia took Crimea. If the US military tries to interfere, China will threaten to nuke the US, so US military will back down. There will be a global depression for many reasons: (1) no chip exports from TSMC, (2) the whole industrialised world will try to decouple from China ASAP -- like Russia but with 100x economic impact.

To be clear: I don't like any of these scenarios, but this is my "real politik" view. None of it would be rational for Mainland China, but it is a dictatorship. Dictators don't play by the rules.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by another2another on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:48AM (#33107564)
I think what you're saying is that Taiwan should invest in a fleet of submarines that can keep their ports free from blockade.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jimmydorry on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:52PM (#33110766)
Taiwan can't, but didn't I hear about one of their neighbours doing such a thing? Oh yeah... Australia. Funnily enough, the contract for the next-gen fleet they were building with France got cancelled and re-made with the US + UK, which is an interesting coincidence considering who the largest non-Chinese force in that region is.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwaway2037 on Monday October 10, 2022 @02:30AM (#33148426)
About your last clause: <<which is an interesting coincidence considering who the largest non-Chinese force in that region is>>

I assume you are referring to the United States. Is the US military based in East Asia larger than Japan Self-Defence Forces? Honestly, I'm not sure. JSDF is much larger than most people realize. And to be clear, the UK has almost no presence in East Asia now. Every few years, they have a global tour, but nothing else.

And regarding the Australia submarine deal, France would only build diesel-electric subs. US+UK promise to help Australia to build nuclear subs. To me, that is the #1 reason why Australia cancelled the France deal. I am sure they negotiated for months behind the scenes to upgrade to nuclear. When rejected, they announced the Ausuk deal.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jimmydorry on Monday October 10, 2022 @09:40PM (#33158484)
In terms of largest number of people, sure the JSDF might be larger, but in terms of raw fire power, I don't think anything comes close to America. And it's not like America has just one or two bases in the region to project from.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwaway2037 on Sunday October 23, 2022 @08:46AM (#33306527)
I agree with your comment about "power projection". Yes, nothing compares to US in APAC. That said, I do think the technical prowess of JSDF Navy is under-rated. They have some very advanced equipment and have excellent integration with US forces. However, Mainland China is a serious counter-threat to US regional military dominance. Honestly, it is weird that China is investing so much in aircraft carriers. After the 2005 Swedish HSMS Gotland training incidents with a new US carrier, it was demonstrated that the era of _effective_ invicibility for carrier groups is over. It was already true, but less obvious, during the Falklands War with the Agentine carrier that was kept out of action by the mere _threat_ of highly advanced UK subs. Asymmetric warfare is the future. Mainland China should be investing more in asymmetric warfare (crouching tiger / samurai type of stuff: air/ocean/undersea drones, submarines, hypersonic missiles, etc.)
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwaway2037 on Monday October 10, 2022 @02:58AM (#33148577)
I did some Google searches. Taiwan has been trying for years to buy more modern subs. All attempts fails. They are now developing a domestic solution. Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Defense_Submarine
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by bharathyes on Thursday October 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#33109853)
Love how you jump from a naval blockade of taiwan to threatening to nuke the US.

The US might not get involved in an all out war over Taiwan but they are likely to support Taiwan in case China attempts a blockade. The US frequently undertakes freedom of navigation drills and would most likely exercise such rights to circumvent China.

Now, will that escalate to a direct conflict is debatable but any genuine threats of nuking US would probably taken as a declaration of war.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwaway2037 on Monday October 10, 2022 @02:55AM (#33148558)
Here is my reasoning for China threatening to use a nuclear bomb against the US. Imagine a series of events like this:

  1. Chinese naval blockade of Taiwan
  2. US will send navy + air force from Japan bases.
  3. No shots fired between US and China (too risky due to both nuclear powers).
  4. Optional: China may immediately claim sovereignty over Taiwan without negotiations with Taiwanese gov't.
  5. China will declare that any attack on Chinese military (in the area) or military aid to Taiwan will be viewed as an "invasion" (whatever that term really means).  Thus, China will declare that the use of nuclear weapons is valid to protect against invasion by US military.
  6. This declaration will be interpreted by US as a nuclear threat.
  7. China will refute this US claim.
  8. Conclusion: US-China stalement with words only.  China takes Taiwan.
To refine my earlier post, simply threatening to (nuclear) bomb / torpedo a US navy carrier strike group is enough. No need to threaten US territory. I'm not sure ICMBs from mainland China can reach mainland US, but they can certainly hit Hawai'i and other US posessions. Also, they have nuclear warheads on subs. I doubt they will work on first try, but the threat is great enough to force US to standdown.

Lastly, I don't like or support any of this, but, it is the most likely scenario.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ijidak on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:13PM (#33102398)
What about a siege?

The more I look at it, the more the ancient siege seems more likely than an invasion.

China doesn't want to destroy Taiwan.

Plus, destroying non-Taiwanese vessels and planes trying to break the siege seems like it would be more palatable to Chinese leaders' domestic audience.

China seemed to do a dress rehearsal for this strategy a month or two ago.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by CamperBob2 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:50PM (#33102685)
The US would recreate the Berlin Airlift in that case. If China wants to shoot down US military cargo aircraft, well... they might as well have launched a full-scale invasion. It will cost them just as much.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by refurb on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:36AM (#33106303)
I’m not even sure that would be needed.

Just send a US ship with escort to Taiwan. China would have to attack US military ships to stop it.

I doubt it would happen.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sudosysgen on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:51PM (#33110755)
That's not what they're going to do. They're going to lay thousands of smart mines. The US military ships will have to either spend weeks demining, shoot down Chinese mine-layers and fire the first shot, commit suicide, or give up.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by refurb on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:13PM (#33116680)
Sure, then the US can just demine the area. It won't take weeks to clear a path.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sudosysgen on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:20AM (#33117716)
I don't think you understand how modern naval mines work. In relatively shallow waters, bottom mines can be employed, which are not visible on sonar, and they use a variety of sensors so that it is incredibly difficult to trick them into detonating. Others burrow underground at higher depths still and then fire a torpedo at passing ships. So generally modern mines have to be disabled one-by-one, and without firing on Chinese forces, the Chinese would be laying more mines than the US Navy can disable. It will definitely take weeks if a path is ever completed.

Even fairly primitive mines in relatively smaller numbers (scarcely more than a thousand - China has at least 100,000) in the Iraq War were able to score a mission kill and a major hit on US ships. And that was without US ships actually docking in Iraq.

Do you know how long it took to sweep just over 1000 of those quite primitive mines in Iraq? Around 3 months.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by refurb on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:39AM (#33117812)
No doubt it took long to sweep those mines in Iraq, but apparently it didn't stop the US Navy from participating in both Iraq Wars?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sudosysgen on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:39AM (#33120397)
The US Navy just stayed beyond the range of the mines, they really didn't need to get through.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sudosysgen on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:09PM (#33103173)
The Chinese would just bomb the airfields in Taiwan.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by NovemberWhiskey on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:14PM (#33102401)
If you look at the iPhone, China's contribution is basically only final assembly. The parts that are being assembled actually come from US/Japan/Korea/Taiwan - so it's not quite as straightforward as it seems.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by dirtyid on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:22PM (#33103582)
PRC went from capturing $8 in final assembly fees on iphone3s to ~$100 / ~25% of BOM cost of iPhone X. More highend PRC components are making their way as well (hence YMTC about to get boot). PRC is also like 1/3 of semi market (400B), that's a lot of western semi R&D that industrial policy like 52B CHIPs act spread over multiple years isn't close to replacing.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by varispeed on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:46PM (#33101613)
Probably Russia has made the same calculation about Germany. The biggest economy in Europe entirely dependent on Russian energy. If their "special operation" actually lasted a couple of weeks as they promised (it's hard to believe Germany didn't know about this way in advance), it is unlikely Europe, under German leadership, would have done anything apart from token sanctions. The contributing factor was of course the US and NATO projecting weakness after debacle in Afghanistan. Putin high on his own delusions, surrounded by yes-men, thought that was the once in a lifetime opportunity to pounce. If European economies weren't so dependent on Russian energy supplies, this war could probably have ended much quicker and thousands wouldn't have died needlessly.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by herbst on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:26AM (#33105461)
> unlikely Europe, under German leadership

Wait what?

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:43AM (#33105588)
Germany's the richest EU country and doesn't hesitate to throw its weight around to get things done their way which is why many refer to the EU as having a German leadership and it's why many other EU countries are unhappy as some German policies are highly unpopular at EU level (supporting illegal mass migration, anti-nuclear "green" stance while burning gas and coal, long term pro-Russian stance, etc.), as are their politicians at EU level like Ursula who have a track record of incompetence and corruption yet are still in power.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by herbst on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:01AM (#33105695)
That doesn't make Germany the leader of the EU and even less Europe. They play an way to important role but EU, gladly, doesn't allow defacto leaders
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:15AM (#33105803)
It still has way more influence than any other EU member and can push its internal agenda more easily.

And since it's also the biggest market in the EU, whatever quirky internal rules and regulations Germany has, get pretty much automatically carried out at EU level by any and all companies looking to do business in the EU.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caskstrength on Thursday October 06, 2022 @07:18AM (#33106849)
> it's hard to believe Germany didn't know about this way in advance

Considering that their spy chief was caught "pants down" in Kyiv when invasion started [0] and had to be evacuated by special forces it is highly likely they had no clue. Unless of course they intentionally orchestrated the whole debacle to look like they didn't know, but that sounds more like a conspiracy theory...

[0]: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/special-forces-evacuate...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by floor2 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:51PM (#33101651)
That seems optimistic.

We won't stop eating beef 3x a day even though we know it's literally destroying the world, we still buy diamonds mined by child slaves and clothes sewn by people making pennies per hour and even the sanctions against Russia carved out exceptions for everything the West really wanted/needed.

We didn't stop doing business with China for a genocide in Tibet, an ongoing genocide against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, the brutality in Hong Kong or the human rights violations in current lockdowns.

If China invades Taiwan, we'll buy iPhones from them anyway and tweet that we don't like what they're doing. Maybe we'll send a few billion dollars to Lockheed and Raytheon to make some weapons for Taiwain, but we won't do anything that actually requires an American to give up the slightest bit of comfort.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by mattnewton on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:17PM (#33101920)
An invasion of Taiwan would be a major disruption to global semiconductor industry even if we kept buying from China in the meantime because it would grind TSMC to a halt. There is no way we could switch manufacturing over to Samsung, or spin up fabs elsewhere for that volume of chips.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jupp0r on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:51PM (#33103400)
You have it backwards. Manufacturing iPhones is much easier than designing iPhones. Apple can manufacture somewhere else, but China can't Apple somewhere else.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by kbenson on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:18PM (#33103558)
The context of this conversation is the root level comment noting a Bloomberg article where it's stated it would take them 8 years to move 10% of their manufacturing capacity to other countries from China.

Now, it still may be true that it's easier to manufacture iPhones than design them, but easier does not mean easy. Personally, I think you're just vastly underestimating how hard it is to manufacture iPhones at scale, which means not just finding the right part, but a part that can be delivered in the quantity and quality required to meet their production needs, and repeated for all the parts they need.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sbaiddn on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:04PM (#33103471)
Designing a new iPhone that does everything the old one does slightly better has very little value added.

Being able to replace broken iPhone12s with new iPhone12s is real. An iPhone18XR on paper is just a piece of paper.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by mattwest on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:14PM (#33103532)
Yea but Apple isn't just the iPhone. Apple has unmatched perceived goodwill, devout customer base, and whole patent portfolio
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sbaiddn on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:19AM (#33107298)
Patents are worthwhile only as far as they are respected. A factory is a real asset employing many real people.

Anyway, why does SV have a lock on design? If anything computer design has gotten very stale since the early 90s when all the competitors to American computer systems finally croaked

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by 9dev on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:50PM (#33104184)
That still doesn’t change the fact that a tiger without teeth may roar as loud as they can, but still won’t be able to bite you.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jupp0r on Thursday October 06, 2022 @11:17AM (#33109317)
If what you said were true, there would have been lots of Chinese phone manufacturers eating Apple's market share for lunch. There aren't.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by malfist on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:11PM (#33099987)
There's a scifi book series where a stable government is maintained by exclusive monopolies that the other provenience are dependent upon. Any provenience trying to break away will quickly find they are in an economic collapse because they can't supply themselves.

Fascinating idea, until the monopolies break everything. I'll see if I can't find it.

It's The Interdependency Series by John Scalzi: https://www.goodreads.com/series/202297-the-interdependency

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by mikestew on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:31PM (#33100243)
That sounds a lot like the EU v1.0:

"Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their coal and steel industries under a common management. In this way, no single country can make the weapons of war to turn against others, as in the past."

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jjk166 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:22PM (#33101386)
This was how Stalin structured the Soviet economy during his industrialization push. It was one of the major reasons the collapse of the soviet union was so economically disastrous for the newly independent states.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by actually_a_dog on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:09PM (#33101839)
Great example of a planned economy working as designed.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by kaushikc on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:26PM (#33102498)
Every large corporation is technically a form of central planning.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lukas099 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:03AM (#33105705)
Yes, you need cells with central dna and even superorganisms with some shared, some not shared dna, but with the undersatnding that diversity and competition at the higher levels is needed for longer-term continuance of the system as a whole.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ctdonath on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:15PM (#33103951)
Employees can quit.

Customers can buy elsewhere.

Corporation isn't going to shoot them for doing so.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwawaylinux on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:29PM (#33103635)
A kid spending her pocket money at the candy shop is a form of central planning. Neither are central planning as the term is used when talking about economic systems though.

The objection to communism isn't that people plan things. It's that the planners face no competition and the results of their plans are inescapable.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by actually_a_dog on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:45PM (#33104154)
Well, guess what happened when Sears implemented an internal free market system:

> Major innovation needs collaboration, not competition. For innovation, internal markets have the same problem as hierarchical bureaucracies. Managers vote their resources for innovations that bolster their current fiefdoms and careers. The safest strategy is to stick to the status quo. Ms. Kimes’ article gives multiple examples where competing managers at Sears looked after their own units at the expense of the interests of the firm as a whole.

(Emphasis added.)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/07/16/do-inte...

Now, what was that you were saying about central planning?

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwawaylinux on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:18AM (#33104327)
> [non sequitur]

> Now, what was that you were saying about central planning?

I was saying that central planning that has no competition and everybody is forced to follow is the usual complaint about central planning, which has nothing to do with people and groups privately choosing to plan and collaborate.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by actually_a_dog on Thursday October 06, 2022 @02:21AM (#33105013)
Well, I just showed that forcing people to compete while not having a plan to "escape" stifles innovation. So, there's your sequitor.

In the future, I would really prefer that you either save the snark, assume good faith, and at least try to keep up with the points being made, or just keep it all to yourself and don't reply to me, alright? I will gladly do you the same courtesy. Breaking things down into teeny tiny pieces grows tiresome quickly.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwawaylinux on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:59AM (#33106421)
> Well, I just showed that forcing people to compete while not having a plan to "escape" stifles innovation.

That doesn't relate to what I wrote, which is why it is a non sequitur. Rather than just say "what about 'blah'", try actually addressing my comment coherently.

And you didn't show such a thing anyway. People aren't forced to compete, as can be seen even in the example you gave, not to mention all the collectives, unions, partnerships, companies, groups, corporations, etc., around us.

> In the future, I would really prefer that you either save the snark, assume good faith, and at least try to keep up with the points being made, or just keep it all to yourself and don't reply to me, alright? I will gladly do you the same courtesy. Breaking things down into teeny tiny pieces grows tiresome quickly.

Please.

"Now, what was that you were saying about central planning?"

That is the height of rude and bad-faith snark after posting something that did not even attempt to address my comment which was criticism of communist central planning, and I said nothing about forced competition or that people should be prevented from cooperating, so you can dismount your high horse.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by actually_a_dog on Thursday October 06, 2022 @06:08PM (#33114734)
Since you are obviously having trouble comprehending what I've written, I'll break it down real simply for you: leave me the hell alone or I'm going to contact the admins about your harassment. Is that clear enough?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by throwawaylinux on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:09PM (#33115840)
I'm comprehending what you've written, I just think it's nonsense and hypocrisy.

I've also not initiated any discussion with you that you didn't start, so if you don't like reading my responses then you can take your own advice on that one too. Please do contact the admins if you find yourself unable to cope with that.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Kye on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:32PM (#33100254)
This is essentially the US. For all the talk of secession from different factions depending on political winds, not much would really change aside from everything being a little more difficult. All the trade each state depends on that happens now through the nature of our federal system would happen through treaties, just like the UK post-Brexit.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:46PM (#33101602)
> All the trade each state depends on that happens now through the nature of our federal system would happen through treaties, just like the UK post-Brexit

That’s an argument in favor of secession! They could still trade, but wouldn’t be forced into a single polity making decisions on domestic issues like education, healthcare, abortion, immigration, etc.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caeril on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:49PM (#33100446)
The coastal US needs flyover country to survive.

Flyover country likes the things that ports/harbors, hollywood, silicon valley, and banks provide.

These two are not the same.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by malfist on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:56PM (#33100529)
Do they? California produces half of the produce in the entire US.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:26PM (#33100864)
that's by dollar value not calories. california produces a lot of fancy water-intensive stuff. flyover country produces mass nutrition.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Der_Einzige on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:18PM (#33101345)
Wheat and potato's can grow in California too. California and the PNW are extremely fertile.

They don't need flyover country.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:48PM (#33101624)
California couldn’t exist without massive army crops of engineers projects bringing water to most of the state.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by modeless on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:37PM (#33102098)
So? The projects are already built and the water comes from within the state, for Northern California and most of the agriculture. Only the cities of Southern California rely on water from other states.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Der_Einzige on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:02PM (#33101750)
Good thing the hippie liberal and extremely wet PNW states of Oregon and Washington will give it to them in the post breakup world.

We. Don't. Need. Flyover states.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:03PM (#33102315)
You’re very mistaken about what kind of hippies PNW folks are if you think they’ll happily give their water to Californians. They’re hippies, but surly ones with guns who don’t look kindly on capitalists who adopt liberalism as an affect. My wife, whose family were among the first settlers in Oregon, gets mad seeing Tillamook cheese in stores here in Maryland. (“That’s our cheese. Fuck you.”)
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lukas099 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @04:08AM (#33105753)
Capitalists are liberals, but there might be truth to what you said.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Thursday October 06, 2022 @07:36AM (#33106953)
But they’re not “hippie liberals.” Oregonians are probably the most anti-capitalist and anti-industry (really, anti-economy) people in the country.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Kye on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:30AM (#33107413)
I think this gets closer to the point I tried to make. There is no unified "blue" or "red," so there wouldn't be a split along the colors cable news paints on election maps. Our FPTP system papers over a lot of diversity of thought that gets wrapped up under the big tents, but doesn't match geography. There are tankies in conservative-run states and evangelicals in Blue Country. Any attempt to split the country along ideological lines would make the most ridiculous gerrymandered district blush.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:26AM (#33107888)
I think you're mixing up different things. You're correct that teams "blue" and "red" are actually coalitions of people who believe quite different things. But in part that's because of geographic and cultural commonalities that cut across party lines. Both Oregon Democrats and Oregon Republicans skew libertarian, because the state does. In Georgia, both Democrats and Republicans skew more religious.

A lot of the intractability of our national politics is because geographical and cultural differences are overlaid on top of normal political differences. Splitting the country up along geographic lines would allow us to just fight over politics, instead of over deep-rooted cultural patterns.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Kye on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:38AM (#33108010)
That's an easier position to take if you aren't one of the people who'd suffer worse religious persecution in a state unconstrained by the constitution. I would still be fighting against those deep-rooted cultural patterns, but I would be overrun quickly without support from enforcement of the 1st and 14th Amendments. State equivalents would be quickly discarded.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rayiner on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:17PM (#33110183)
44% of the people in my home country think I should be executed due to my religious beliefs: https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2....

But that's what their religion says and it is what it is. It would be wrong for someone else to come along and impose their own cultural patterns (such as secularism) for the sake of a minority. That's just imperialism.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by bart_spoon on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:46PM (#33102173)
They also are in a drought are they not? Virtually the entirety of the country west of Missouri is. And that’s only going to get worse and worse.

They may still have enough for their needs, but it’s unlikely they have enough for California’s needs, especially for its agriculture.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:04PM (#33102322)
you realize most of the area by land in oregon and washington is very very red. and in a secession scenario they have a shitload more guns than the cities.

and even the parts that are less red probably wouldn't want to pipe the water down to cali latifundia. a lot of that area seems very culturally independent so i doubt they'd like being the breadbasket for something like the cali big cities.

and regardless yeah y'all do because population along the coast is very dense. you don't have enough space there to grow all that food for especially the big cali cities.

we don't need y'all, though.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by dang on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:03AM (#33118260)
We've asked you repeatedly to stop posting flamewar comments and you've continued to do it. If you keep this up we will ban you, so please stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Der_Einzige on Monday October 17, 2022 @11:36AM (#33235021)
Please renounce your moderatorship since you are obviously unable to correctly deduce what is a real argument and what is designed to cause flame wars.

I have no idea why people here fawn over your moderating. Please spare this website of anymore of it.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:06PM (#33102343)
they are also way too small to grow enough food for colossal cali cities. and most of that agricultural land east of the coast is very red. look how many people in east oregon want to deadass secede to idaho because they're so sick of portland's bullshit.

they'd go join "flyover country".

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caeril on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:04PM (#33100634)
Review some electoral maps. The OP was referring to secessionary scenarios, in which case most of Inland California, including the San Joaquin Valley, belongs to Team Red.

Even so, produce does not comprise a material percentage of the US caloric intake. Grains, tubers, grain oils, and meat definitely do.

Beyond food, there's mining and energy. Without the coasts, The US would be significantly inconvenienced. Without flyover country, the US would be dead.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by thecrash on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:56PM (#33101156)
American agriculture is entirely dependent on petroleum, of which the US imports millions of barrels a day.

Inland farmers require foreign oil as an input to the caloric production you describe, which means that to survive they need the ports and pipelines of North America as well as the cooperation of oil-rich nations.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by kipchak on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:07PM (#33101806)
Recently become a net exporter of all petroleum products, with Texas, North Dakota, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Colorado, Alaska and California being the largest producers. At least in the near term I don't think the flyover states are as reliant on imports as the coasts if you were to put them in separate categories.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51338 https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-u-s-oil-production-b...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by wingspar on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:30PM (#33102032)
Pretty sure if there was such a split, gulf coast states and their ports would go with the inland farmers. So petroleum would be imported around the Mississippi. Likely a split would have the ‘red’ states net exporting petroleum.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by NovemberWhiskey on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:58PM (#33101714)
Don't forget the massive subsidies to corn farming etc. generated by Federal mandates for biofuels.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Kye on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:13PM (#33100732)
Both sides would either devolve into unlivable hellscapes or realize ideological moderation is the only way to run a sustainable government. You can't run a government if it's all "death to red! never mind all the minorities there who've been suppressed" or "death to blue! my kids will hate me and leave at the first opportunity, but I won't care until it's too late."

This is why I said all the current informal federal-based stuff would come back through treaty. I think most people on both "sides" are reasonable, so the split would never actually happen. And if it did, people would quickly miss all the stuff from the other side of it.

It's on a level with considering what happens if the sun disappears. It can't happen without something freakish happening, and none of us really knows how it would go.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caeril on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:22PM (#33100833)
> Both sides would either devolve into unlivable hellscapes

One side would devolve into an unlivable hellscape. The other side would devolve into the 1890s-1910s or so, without access to modern imported goods.

Nobody would "win". It's obviously a horrible scenario. But one side would definitely lose.

> It can't happen without something freakish happening

Nations collapse from political schism all the time. We just have short memories.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Kye on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:27PM (#33100884)
Modern farming is completely dependent on those ports you so eagerly gave away. How many millions of people would die of starvation and from the inevitable resource wars while the few people who know how to farm the old-fashioned way figured out how to make it work on land that's been made dependent on abundant imported fertilizer and pesticides?

I do not believe the people yelling "secession!" are prepared to revert to a pre-WWI world.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caeril on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:39PM (#33101005)
Modern farming is indeed dependent on imports. But modern-"ish" farming, with tractors, combines, and some degree of mechanization can still be done and maintained without microprocessors, sensors, and precision pumps and machine tools.

And if your supply requirements decrease by 150MM people, that makes the job substantially easier to manage.

> I do not believe the people yelling "secession!" are prepared to revert to a pre-WWI world.

Ah, but they think they are. Which is really the only thing that matters, since beyond a certain point, it's too late.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:53PM (#33103404)
you are aware the gulf coast has a lot of ports for imports and exports. most gas comes out of "flyover country" and ends up at gulf export sites (see henry hub) and that's the big input to producing ammonia fertilizer.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by malfist on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:35PM (#33100970)
> The other side would devolve into the 1890s-1910s or so, without access to modern imported goods

Subsistence farming is great for feeding an army so you can rebel against your government

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Bloating on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:32PM (#33100928)
Both sides would either devolve

I first read that as downvote, you know the internetizen apocalypse

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by malfist on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:29PM (#33100904)
You guys are really delusional. You think the economic powerhouses (SF, LA, etc) in CA will just let half of CA secede?

California produces almost 14% of all the crops grown in the US. A large portion of that are nuts and high calorie items like avocado and soy. You want food oils? Grains? Meats? CA exports all of those. CA is the 4th biggest producer of cattle in the US, 10th biggest poultry producer. 9th biggest producer of potatoes (Washington is #1, another coastal state). 2nd biggest rice producer.

As far as energy, you realize Texas is also not one of your flyover states, right? And even if it wasn't, we import plenty of energy from pipelines to coastal states so it can be sold or refined. CA has nearly the same refinement capabilities as Texas itself.

Fly over states are land. Undeveloped land is not extrinsically valuable.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by horsawlarway on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:01PM (#33100577)
That's a seriously flawed evaluation.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Maursault on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:51PM (#33101107)
This is a seriously unsupported assertion.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:28PM (#33100885)
is it? most of the agriculturally and industrially productive land is out in flyover country. and depending on who you ask areas that are mostly agriculture qualify as "flyover" even if they're e.g. east oregon/cali/washington. new england is probably the one exception but it's small in terms of area and ag output.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by tablespoon on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:54PM (#33099786)
> Or it's a very good thing for keeping tensions under control with both countries benefiting drastically from keeping the relationship functional.

IMHO, that's a free market myth made "true" through constant repetition. It breaks down if one or more parties stops prioritizing things like a free marketer.

And "keeping tensions under control" could translate to "appease the CCP and give in to its demands." It controls the real (physical) assets, as well as most of the human capital. Its adversaries are democracies, which means they're often far too focused on the people's parochial, short-term whims (e.g. failing to take strategic action because they're afraid of losing votes if those actions make iPhones more expensive).

The CCP has also has the benefit of learning from several of Russia's mistakes. They'll probably force their demands more slowly and persistently, so as to not galvanize their opponents.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:53PM (#33101130)
Exactly. It was this theory that allowed the West to trade with Russia regardless of her human rights abuses, but it still didn’t deter a pointlessly costly war.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by DoughnutHole on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:14PM (#33101311)
The argument could be made that it worked pretty well for over 20 years. Russia played fairly nice with the west pretty much up until they invaded Crimea.

It'd obviously be a mistake to say that economic interconnectivity totally prevents war, but the fact that wars break out doesn't falsify the notion that it might make conflict less common on average. The west's relationship with Russia and China has certainly been less rocky over the past 30 years than its relationship with the Soviet Union ever was.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:19PM (#33101357)
> The argument could be made that it worked pretty well for over 20 years

Uhm, this isn't the first time Russia invaded Ukraine in the past decade. Remember when they invaded and took Crimea?

Also, they've been fucking with elections in other countries, like with Brexit and Trump. There was also the Wirecard scandal that they've been associated with. They've done massive amounts of damage internationally.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by DoughnutHole on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:37PM (#33101516)
> Remember when they invaded and took Crimea?

Yes, I mentioned it. That was in 2014 - 22 years after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Russia's antics have been damaging but child's play compared to the cold war. The US and the Soviet Union were engaged in proxy wars, insurgencies, coups and counter coups across the globe pretty much non-stop for nearly 50 years, all the while pointing two order-of-magnitude larger nuclear arsenals at each other.

Economic interdependence obviously didn't stop Russia from eventually going off the deep end. But it probably helped keep relations cool for quite a while.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by whimsicalism on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:24PM (#33101966)
> Also, they've been fucking with elections in other countries

Sure, but this is much more low level than a war. The US also messes with other countries elections & politics, including Euromaidan in Ukraine.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by tablespoon on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:18AM (#33108469)
> The argument could be made that it worked pretty well for over 20 years. Russia played fairly nice with the west pretty much up until they invaded Crimea.

20 years is actually not a long time for an idea like we're talking about. This isn't human-scale stuff.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:05PM (#33101791)
If countries are still trading with the US despite US murdering 1 million in Iraq and even as of this very moment killing whomever cant pay for healthcare, there is no problem with any other country trading with any other country.

...

Double standards is not a good habit.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:04PM (#33101780)
> "appease the CCP and give in to its demands."

If countries giving into US demands is not something bad, then giving into "CCP demands" is not bad either.

...

The doublespeak and 'everyone except us is evil" mentality in Anglosphere is amazing.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by gbear605 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:24PM (#33104000)
The US is not the country actively committing genocide. It’s absolutely not a perfect country, but there’s no competition on which is more evil.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:11AM (#33104293)
> The US is not the country actively committing genocide

The country that claims that there is a genocide in Xinjiang is the country that lied for EIGHT years about nonexistent Iraqi WMDs. And its the US.

Every. Single. Muslim majority country backed China at the UN after sending representatives to Xinjiang. They said that there is no such thing as a 'genocide' there. Its the US State Dept. word versus every single muslim majority country and their parliamentarians.

...

Today its easy to understand why people bought into the Iraqi WMDs lie back then: Because it makes them feel good, righteous, and the 'right side'.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by gbear605 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @06:14AM (#33106497)
Yeah, no. The difference between the WMDs and Xinjiang is that for one we only had the State Department’s word for it, and there was no evidence, while for the other there are numerous independent groups that have provided evidence, there are interviews with many of the people involved, and many people outside of China have had their relatives lose contact with them because of it. There are so many independent sources that it’s silly to compare it to something like Iraq.

As for the other Muslim-majority countries, I can’t find any news backing your statement, but that might be my own lack of Google-fu or perhaps an international underreporting by the media, so I’ll take your word for it. But still, that’s not evidence. All of those countries have little to gain from speaking out at the UN (it won’t actually directly help anyone), and they don’t necessarily feel much inter-Islam brotherhood since the genocide in Xinjiang is against a specific group of Muslims, not against Muslims in general. (Almost?) all of those countries on the other hand are receiving aid from China, which presumably is conditional on saying that there’s no genocide in Xinjiang.

Edit: nevermind, my Google-fu was weak. I found this article. Note that you’re actually simply wrong, since Qatar didn’t back China, rather abstaining. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/04/why-do-so...

Just looking at Pakistan, for example: Pakistan has been given tens of billions of dollars by China and is owed billions more, China is a major trading of Pakistan, and China is investing in major infrastructure development there. I don’t think anything could get Pakistan to not support China in the UN.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @11:16AM (#33109303)
> Yeah, no. The difference between the WMDs and Xinjiang is that for one we only had the State Department’s word for it

No, we didn't. We had the word of every single insitution in the Angloamerican controlled part of the Western hemisphere. From NGOs to media. NYT was publishing dozens of articles talking about the WMDs, then one article 'questioning' whether we were "acting too fast", but inevitably concluding that the risks of 'not taking action' were far greater.

It was a TOTAL media propaganda just like now.

The French were even ridiculed for contesting the veracity of those claims. So much propaganda was done that they were able to smear an ENTIRE nation as 'surrender monkeys' and 'cowards' for persisting in questioning the claims.

> Just looking at Pakistan, for example: Pakistan has been given tens of billions of dollars by China and is owed billions more, China is a major trading of Pakistan, and China is investing in major infrastructure development there. I don’t think anything could get Pakistan to not support China in the UN.

This is a supremacist talk: "They are siding with the baddies for profit". Whereas on the other hand, the Western satellites that supported the US in the UN have absolutely no profit in backing the US. They just did it out of goodwill and morals. Nothing related to profit and foreign policy.

Qatar and Turkey abstained in order to not upset the US. Abstaining itself is already opposing since there is no way that any country in the Middle East can turn a blind eye to an actual genocide of muslims if it took place. Which makes it even more significant that every other country opposed it.

> since the genocide in Xinjiang is against a specific group of Muslims, not against Muslims in general

There is no such thing. I don't know where you pulled that out from. Xinjiang muslims are sunnis and the majority of the muslim world is sunni.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Dalewyn on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:42PM (#33103004)
This rhetoric is the reason why we're in the situation we're in now.

China doesn't care for niceties, they will fleece everyone for all they are worth at the first and every opportunity to advance their own agenda which is very clearly not aligned with western interests.

Put another way, you know who's funding the Chinese military? We (the west) are. We are funding the very regime who would sooner see us dead than alive. There is no room for the west in their One China vision.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by MR4D on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:07PM (#33101812)
That train of thought used to be true, but with the EU and Russia, it seems not to be true as much.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. The US can get along without Apple (although 401K's might take a big hit), but China without Apple would be a pretty big issue, even if you only look at it from an employment viewpoint.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by thrown_22 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:33PM (#33102058)
That train of thought was used to argue that a big war was impossible in Europe ... in 1913. Politics is not economics and economics is not politics. It takes a very deep ignorance of history to think otherwise.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by nindalf on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:03PM (#33100607)
Yeah this makes sense. Kinda like how Europe depends on Russia for oil and gas and Russia imports a number of high tech goods from Europe. That’s why conflict between the two is highly unlikely.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by yreg on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:21PM (#33101373)
The fact that this time it didn't work out with Russia doesn't negate the game theory.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:08PM (#33102800)
It didn't work out for europe either, considering we'll be pretty fucked this winter.

US of course gains a lot... weakening both russia and EU while selling overpriced LPG. On the other hand, US has been afraid of a strong germany-russia cooperation for decades and has done everything possible to stop it,... the us-bombing-nordstream accusations are not something new, since US was opposed to nordstream and threatened against it for years now, way before the russia-ukraine war.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by nostromo on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:07PM (#33099937)
This is exactly what Germany thought it was doing when it forged energy deals with Russia.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lnsru on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:09PM (#33099963)
Not really. Russia put enormous effort to bribe German politicians. Ex chancellor for example. I don’t think, that China is bribing Apple. They go there voluntarily.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:53PM (#33101136)
This was one argument the corrupt politicians used to justify their actions.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by abraae on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:14PM (#33100025)
Energy comes out of the ground. Exploiting something that's already there with very little value add. You can't buy energy from just anyone.

Building airpods is an industrial process. All value add. You can do it anywhere, one factories are set up, workers trained etc.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Maursault on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:00PM (#33101206)
> Energy comes out of the ground.

Nearly all of the energy available on Earth comes from our sun, including all fossil fuels, shallow geothermal, biomass, hydro, tidal, wave, wind and solar energies. The remainder came from other suns, such as nuclear and deep geothermal.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ziddoap on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:05PM (#33103475)
Cool thing to think about, sure, but I can't put an empty barrel outside and have the sun fill it up with oil. If you know how to do this, please let me know.

Deep/shallow geothermal (and hydro, tidal, wave, wind, solar) have those pesky borders and politics to deal with when looking to harness them. One country can't arbitrarily go to some other country and harness their geothermal, erect solar panels or wind turbines, etc.

The parent posters were, extremely obviously, not having a discussion on where various energy sources originated from in a science sense, but the politics surrounding the trade of those resources.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Maursault on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:33PM (#33103651)
> but I can't put an empty barrel outside and have the sun fill it up with oil.

Sure you could. Just place it next to the output of a solar press and extract oil from sunflower seeds or others, let it pour into the barrel until full, replace with an empty barrel, and repeat. When you have enough oil stocked, you can use it to manipulate the market, make a fortune, start a war, takeover the world, eliminate borders, whatever you like, the sky's the limit with an empty barrel and a little sun.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rkagerer on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:36PM (#33100302)
...anywhere that has the required local supply logistics, low labour cost, etc.

If it could truly be done anywhere it would still be happening in the US.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ziddoap on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:02PM (#33100602)
I think the point being made is that if Apple/whoever was willing to pay for it, you can setup the supply chain and get the workers wherever you want. It might cost more, sure, but it can be done.

However, you can't just extract energy from somewhere that doesn't have it. No matter how much money you want to sink into it. If there's no oil/NG/whatever, that's that. Trillions of dollars wont make it appear there. Trillions of dollars does let you setup a nice supply chain and labor force in the US though.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lossolo on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:37PM (#33100316)
It took less than a year to secure most of the needed gas in EU from other places, OP says it takes 8 years to switch only 10% of apple production.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by michaelt on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:11PM (#33101291)
Under Merkel, Germany got 50% of their natural gas from Russia - with the intention of normalising relations and keeping tensions under control.

Then Russia decided they could invade a neighbour they claim isn't a real country - and now Germany is in for a very cold winter, and gas shortages are sending bills skyrocketing all across Europe.

If trade was supposed to stop Russia invading its neighbours, it hasn't worked very well.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lmm on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:40PM (#33101539)
Well, the theory relies on assuming rationality from the Russian leadership. If a madman wants to invade a neighbour, there are few reliable ways to prevent that.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:12PM (#33102824)
> If a madman wants to invade a neighbour, there are few reliable ways to prevent that.

Does being a neighbor matter here?

Because if a madmen attacks a country half a planet away, we (the europeans) help them by sending our soldiers to help (syria, libya, afghanistan,...).

We also tend to treat separatists differently, depending on where and who they are... Kosovo people want to be independent, let them be independent, and think later how to (re)paint nato as a purely defensive organization, when the nato bombings of yugoslavia are over. People from republika srpska also want to leave bosnia and hercegovina... no no, the country must stay whole, we won't change maps. Catalunya? What? Where? Who? Sorry, I have to go.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lmm on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:12PM (#33103923)
> Because if a madmen attacks a country half a planet away, we (the europeans) help them by sending our soldiers to help (syria, libya, afghanistan,...).

What on Earth are you talking about, and what does it have to do with anything?

> We also tend to treat separatists differently, depending on where and who they are... Kosovo people want to be independent, let them be independent, and think later how to (re)paint nato as a purely defensive organization, when the nato bombings of yugoslavia are over.

Wanting to separate is one thing, being the subject of a credible ethnic cleansing campaign is another.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ajsnigrutin on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:42PM (#33116027)
US has attacked numerous sovereign countries, and we did nothing against them and even helped them. Numerous european/nato countries have solders occupying sovereign countries even today (even my shitty small one has soldiers in syria now), and noone cares about those countries, those people and those agressors (well.. us, agressors).

Why are we acting differently now? I mean.. I know.. "it's ok when we do it", but atleast stop with the bullshit about sovereing states and lives, because we didn't care when we did the occupations and we still don't care while we're occupying those countries now.

And again, I'm from a small shitty country, and our soldiers are currently occupying syria... countries like france, have a lot longer lists of occupied countries, and countries like america should be sanctioned to oblivion decades ago.

> Wanting to separate is one thing, being the subject of a credible ethnic cleansing campaign is another.

yes, and iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

Parenti wrote a nice article about yugoslavia, including the ethnic cleansing part: https://web.archive.org/web/20200319062355/http://www.michae...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lmm on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:51PM (#33116891)
> US has attacked numerous sovereign countries, and we did nothing against them and even helped them. Numerous european/nato countries have solders occupying sovereign countries even today (even my shitty small one has soldiers in syria now), and noone cares about those countries, those people and those agressors (well.. us, agressors).

> Why are we acting differently now? I mean.. I know.. "it's ok when we do it", but atleast stop with the bullshit about sovereing states and lives, because we didn't care when we did the occupations and we still don't care while we're occupying those countries now.

Again, what on earth does any of this have to do with anything?

> yes, and iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

Iraq is what it looks like when the US decides they're going to invade and manufactures an excuse. The WMD claim was bullshit, everyone at the time knew it was bullshit, anyone whose opinion was worth anything was calling them out on their bullshit. That's not evidence that the core claims about Kosovo (which are disputed by, at most, a handful of cranks) were false, it's evidence of the opposite; if the reason that even people critical of the US invasion agreed that the ethnic cleansing was happening is because of some all-powerful propaganda conspiracy, how come that all-powerful propaganda conspiracy wasn't deployed to the same effect for the invasion of Iraq?

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:05PM (#33101796)
"Everyone but the US is evil and crazy"
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jamiek88 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:47PM (#33102179)
No. But Putin is.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:09AM (#33104284)
Kruschev was crazy. Ortega was crazy. Saddam was crazy. Gaddafi was crazy. Putin is crazy. Now they are saying that Xi is 'enigmatic'. In 1-2 years, they will start saying that he is 'mentally unstable'.

"Every US enemy is Hitler".

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by phs318u on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @11:37PM (#33104091)
That's what the Europeans thought when they signed up to making themselves so energy dependent on the Russians. They thought they were creating a two-way dependency that would moderate excessive behaviour and "keep the relationship functional". That's not how it's worked out.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by buscoquadnary on Thursday October 06, 2022 @01:50AM (#33104822)
The old "armies will cross borders if goods don't argument." A comforting and hopeful delusion.

People made the exact same arguments in the early 1900s, they became convinced after international incident after international incident became solved without bloodshed none would. They argued that because the economies we're so intertwined with Germany being the world's leading producer of electrical appliances that were being used in English homes no one would ever want to fight a war there would be nothing to gain and everything to lose. The British in particular as the financial capital of the world pushed and leaned on this narrative hard, nothing would be more disruptive to their fiance and capital schemes than a large scale conflict. Every country in the world had treaties and agreements to try and avoid anything happening.

Then in 1914 a young disgruntled Serbian nationalist that didn't care about the economy or international relations, who cared only about the existential emptiness he had cured with fanatical nationalism assassinated the Archduke of a relatively minor European power that was considered to be on its way out.

It turns out in a national scramble for survival the economy is considered a cheap thing, especially when the actual cost is being paid in the blood of tens of thousands of young men each day.

So let me ask you this question if you are convinced that it will be too expensive to let these tensions explode, as thousands of feet march to the beat, what would you say is the price of a mile?

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rightbyte on Thursday October 06, 2022 @02:07AM (#33104929)
You need to know the counterfactual rate of war if there were less trade to evaluate that.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by themitigating on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:50PM (#33099715)
Then why didn't that work with russia, they have ruined their economy for a war
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jm4 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:12PM (#33100008)
In no particular order:

- Russia overestimated their position

- Russia believed the war would be over in a few days (which many in the West also believed)

- Russia assumed Europe would keep buying their oil (which has happened to an extent)

- Russia believes they can "out-suffer" the West and we will crack after a few months

- Russia believed the West was too polarized to reach consensus on an effective response

In short, Russia had a bad read on the situation and shot themselves in the foot. They thought they were in a position to impose their will without a fight or a significant response from the West.

We have seen a little bit of the same attitude from China the past several years - decadent West on the decline, democracy is flawed, etc. - but I have to think they are smart enough to realize they have been underestimating us. At a minimum, I think it pushes back their timeline for when they believed they would become the world's premier power. Hopefully, that buys us all some time to cool off and find diplomatic solutions.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by prewett on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:36PM (#33100299)
I don't think diplomatic solutions are possible when one side says "this land that we don't currently occupy is ours", especially when the people in charge view admitting they were mistaking as a existential personal failure. The best you can hope for is balance-of-power detente.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by NicoJuicy on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:33PM (#33100269)
A democracy is underestimated when the problems are known and shared honestly instead of being hidden by a dictator with a big ego.

Both can prosper when things go good, it's when shit hits the fan that you notice the difference.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by 8ytecoder on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:30PM (#33100915)
A democracy with persuasive leaders is likely to prevail over a dictatorship where no one dares to speak their mind - as in The Emperor’s New Clothes.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by themitigating on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:19PM (#33102873)
Or a democracy where its leaders lie
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ketzo on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:55PM (#33099789)
That is a very complicated question, but in short:

Russia’s economy is supported by oil. Oil is pretty much the one thing that they’ve still been consistently able to export.

China’s economy is based on exporting lots and lots and lots of manufactured goods. Many of them are essential, but many of them could be banned tomorrow.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jacobolus on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:14PM (#33100032)
It’s not a complicated question. It’s a very simple question with a simple answer: one man (Vladimir Putin) wanted to go to war and made the (initial and ongoing) decision despite it being a clearly terrible idea to anyone else watching.

How Russia got itself to the point where one person has consolidated all authority, surrounded himself with corrupt sycophants, and cannot accurately gather or integrate information from the rest of the society is the complicated question here. It’s a pretty good demonstration for anyone watching around the world that unchecked power can lead to disastrous decisions. It should inspire us to stand up for democracy and against corruption and consolidation of wealth and power in our own societies.

It’s impossible to determine Putin’s personal motivations from outside; the best we can do is speculate. My speculation is that involves some combination of (a) doing what he thinks will best maintain internal political control, (b) satisfying an egoistical urge for historical glory, and (c) a narcissistic belief that others must bow to his personal whims and a raging narcissistic grudge when they do not.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by herbst on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:37AM (#33105545)
To my understanding blaming Putin personally is just a weird thing the media is doing to make Russia seem more crazy.

Pretty sure in reality it's not one man alone doing crazy decisions without the whole state organ being behind him.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jacobolus on Thursday October 06, 2022 @07:28PM (#33115523)
There are a whole bunch of people in the “whole state organ” who were opposed to one extent or another. Some of them mysteriously fell out of windows or shot themselves in the back of the head. Others were fired or jailed. Others were publicly humiliated. The rest fell into line.

Invading Ukraine certainly wasn’t, say, Elvira Nabiullina’s choice, or the choice of the oligarchs with homes in London or NYC. The turnover rate at the top ranks of the Russian military the past 6 months is higher than a typical McDonalds.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by tbihl on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:50PM (#33103059)
>It’s impossible to determine Putin’s personal motivations from outside; the best we can do is speculate.

Russia has no convenient geographic features to protect it from invasion, so it relies on long distances. Those distances are much shorter than they used to be, and Russian doctrine for at least the past decade has been focused on creating confusion and chaos in Eastern Europe. The chaos is here, and they probably misread the international community on what they could get away with.

Now that they're in it, though, I think Putin is the biggest obstacle to Russia extricating themselves from the debacle.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Maursault on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:32PM (#33101479)
> It’s impossible to determine Putin’s personal motivations from outside;

Entitlement. The closest you came was the descriptor "narcissistic" in (c). Narcissism is supposed to be a rare condition, but it is found everywhere. It is easiest to understand leaders like Putin, Jong-un, Xi, DeSantis and Trump, if framed in psychological terms like narcissism with symptoms of entitlement, grandiosity, attention seeking, arrogance, bullying, lack of empathy, and a fear of criticism.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @02:58PM (#33099823)
The point being that Russia would be more desperate due to fewer options? Not trying to argue, just curious.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ketzo on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:01PM (#33099863)
The opposite, actually — people NEED Russia’s oil. They don’t have the option to stop buying it without a lot of pain. So Russia’s biggest money-fountain has stayed on despite sanctions.

Meanwhile, China exports a lot of things that people don’t need. You can turn those off quicker.

Again — huge oversimplifications. But I think reasonably solid mental model.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by tablespoon on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:10PM (#33099969)
> Meanwhile, China exports a lot of things that people don’t need. You can turn those off quicker.

It's not like that's all they export. They export a lot of essential things, and cutting them off would probably far more economically disruptive to their customers than to them. They're store shelves won't be empty, and given their political system they can probably deal with the fallout much more effectively.

There are also a lot of alternative producers of oil, while there's no other advanced manufacturing giant on the scale of China that people can shift their orders to. It would make the COVID supply chain difficulties look like a joke.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by rurp on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:18PM (#33100075)
Russia has even put their energy exports at risk though. They are already trading at a discount and things could get much worse if the war continues to escalate. If Putin advances to using nukes or mass slaughtering of civilians, things will eventually reach a point where the neutral countries finally cut ties.

Russia starting a nuclear war would be bad for China, India and others; there's some point at which they'll cut off Russian trade.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:57PM (#33101178)
Russia has been mass slaughtering citizens.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2022/09/22/new-mas...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by okasaki on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:14PM (#33101307)
Yes and they're taking babies out of incubators and leaving them to die.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jakubadamw on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:45PM (#33102642)
I understand your snark is simply meant to signal your sympathy towards war crime negationism, but the Gulf War incubator reference does happen to be on topic and not in the way you may have intended.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/09/europe/gallery/mariupol-h...

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by okasaki on Thursday October 06, 2022 @07:56AM (#33107077)
No, I don't think you got my point.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Thursday October 06, 2022 @12:53PM (#33110794)
Can you clarify? I'm confused as well.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by okasaki on Thursday October 06, 2022 @01:45PM (#33111459)
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by laxmin on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:13AM (#33105383)
Assuming both are completely rational and take decisions that are most beneficial to their citizens short and long term welfare.

Such an assumption has no rational basis itself.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jychang on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:20AM (#33105416)
You need to read up on philosophy. Mostly Hegel’s Dialectics. These two statements are not contradictory and are both simultaneously true. dialectics (used with a sing. verb) A method of argument or exposition that systematically weighs contradictory facts or ideas with a view to the resolution of their real or apparent contradictions. The contradiction between two conflicting forces viewed as the determining factor in their continuing interaction.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:24PM (#33100160)
The US needs Apple, China doesn't need Apple. That asymmetry can be exploited.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sfeqcq on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:40PM (#33100340)
Are you sure about that? A million people losing their jobs can have an impact.

"It is the world's largest technology manufacturer and service provider. While headquartered in Taiwan, the company is the largest private employer in the People's Republic of China and one of the largest employers worldwide."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

And that doesn't count all the companies that make the subassemblies and parts for Foxconn either.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by vaidhy on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:19PM (#33101355)
Yes, but Foxconn is not Apple subsidiary. Apple is just one of their customers. Saying million would lose job because Apple moved out of China seems like hyperbole from the other side.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by scarface74 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:41PM (#33102137)
Apple is by far their largest customer.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:15PM (#33102851)
So, what will people in the rest of the world buy then? There won't be new iphones for years, and foxconn will continue to make phones for other manufacturers, whose sales will go up.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by scarface74 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @09:02PM (#33103113)
What scenario is there that Apple couldn’t make phones in China and every other manufacturer could?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by herbst on Thursday October 06, 2022 @03:39AM (#33105557)
Obviously because Apple is a US company and every other major smartphone company is Asian and has a very different relation to China
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by scarface74 on Thursday October 06, 2022 @01:12PM (#33111013)
Besides Samsung and Apple most of the top cell phone makers are Chinese.

http://www.mobilecellphonerepairing.com/top-mobile-phone-man...

In a trade war, those phones won’t be making it to the US.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @08:22PM (#33102889)
AAPL is a good chunk of the S&P 500, close to 10% of its market cap.

I don't think a loss of value to the tune of $2.5T would go well for the US economy.

I don't think either country cares much about unemployment, but the US, at least, has a history of going to great lengths to maintain the value of its assets.

And I'm sure there are companies eagerly awaiting to get the business Foxconn turned down because Apple outbid them or made favorable agreements.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by refurb on Thursday October 06, 2022 @05:45AM (#33106339)
Apple revenue is $400B.

US GDP is $21,000B.

Losing 2% would hurt but it wouldn’t cripple the US.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jonny_eh on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:59PM (#33101187)
How many people does Apple employ in America vs those employed in China (indirectly)?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:28PM (#33101443)
How much does the financial health and economy in the US depend on AAPL maintaining value versus the same in China?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by pyuser583 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:26PM (#33100872)
Does the US need Apple?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:23PM (#33101392)
They need Apple in the sense that AAPL is represented in many different financial instruments, products and portfolios, and it tanking would have consequences outside of shareholders just losing value.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Bloating on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:34PM (#33100954)
I don't need Apple
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:21PM (#33101378)
Neither do I, but Apple tanking would have consequences for the US economy.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by scarface74 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:41PM (#33102143)
Where do you think your Android phone is made?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by newaccount2021 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:09PM (#33102367)
Samsung pulled out of China manufacturing in 2019
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by scyzoryk_xyz on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:04PM (#33099899)
Definitely the logic that drove Germany to make it’s entire industrial economy dependent on gas from the east over the last several decades.

Not saying there is no merit to the logic, just that it can backfire or malfunction unexpectedly.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Bloating on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:37PM (#33100987)
Save the Environment, IMPORT

Demand Living Wages, IMPORT

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jasonwatkinspdx on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @07:28PM (#33102515)
We've seen a clear failure of this logic in Ukraine. Russia interpreted the interdependence as a license, not a leash.

The most likely source of conflict between the US and the CCP is Taiwan, and this is an issue where reduction to economic incentives utterly fails to describe potential events.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by sbaiddn on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:05PM (#33103477)
That was the theory on the eve of WW1, wasnt it?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by jeswin on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @10:42PM (#33103710)
Appeasing a dictatorship (both mafia-style as in Russia, and Communist-style as in China/North Korea) isn't a good idea in the long run - especially if they have nuclear weapons. The barbarism we've seen in Ukraine is an example. On the other side of the world, Taiwan is threatened with war every week.

Further strengthening China's manufacturing capacity is not in the interest of democracies.

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by caycep on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:51PM (#33101645)
maybe it's a balance - you can keep some dependency on china, just not 98%...
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by friedman23 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @05:39PM (#33101529)
How could anyone say this seriously after recent events?
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by collegeburner on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @04:29PM (#33100900)
has the "mcdonalds diplomacy" thing really worked out? because we've seen countries that were getting better (Iran) fall and countries that should have gotten better (Russia) fail to do so.
Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by Bombthecat on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @03:42PM (#33100355)
Germany thought that works with Russia...

Well, now you see how well that worked

Re:Apple asks suppliers to shift AirPods, Beats production t... by unity1001 on Wednesday October 05, 2022 @06:09PM (#33101836)
It worked very well until the US decided that it should drive apart Russia and Germany to remove Germany as a competitor.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/02/michael-hudson-ameri...