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Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by gaoshan on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#30027498)
This is actually a brilliant location for them. One of those places that has much more going for it than people not from the region would realize.

International airport, large rail depot, extremely low cost of living and a city/region that has more good restaurants and activities than might be expected. Ohio State University is in the city and is a huge school that is rapidly growing in academic standing. Road transit in the area is also very good allowing access to any part of the city from any other part in rapid fashion. Good schools, relatively low crime, etc. Probably the only drawback, from a lifestyle point of view, would be the winter and that's not even that bad, compared to other winter regions.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by umvi on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:08PM (#30030024)
> extremely low cost of living and a city/region that has more good restaurants and activities than might be expected

That's what people said about Salt Lake City and Boise... until about 5 years ago. Cost of living has skyrocketed since 2017, housing alone has doubled in price. It doesn't take long for a low cost of living region to become high cost of living.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:10PM (#30030054)
Cost of living in Columbus is low if you are looking at it with Coastal city eyes. That being said, its still the most expensive city in Ohio. Houses in the hot neighborhoods people write articles about were hitting 700k 6 years ago. Rents in new apartments are like $1300 for a 1 bedroom.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kesslern on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:58PM (#30030513)
> That being said, its still the most expensive city in Ohio.

Yes, because it's the only major city that's growing. Cleveland, Cincinatti, Toledo, and Dayton are all losing population year-over-year while Columbus's grows.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by axxl on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:04PM (#30031107)
Cincinnati (double n, single t) is actually growing in population: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/08/12/census-2020...
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:38PM (#30030869)
Just remarking its not entirely cheap. You can move there and get a job that pays well, but you aren't alone, other people are going to have well paid jobs too and you will find the same competitive housing market for decent neighborhoods that you see in places like Portland or wherever. Especially when you consider how your full tax structure works it might not be as much of a deal over time as CA with prop 13 as your taxes will be reassessed every few years and if the market climbed, so did your tax bill. There's probably fewer opportunities to leg up your earned income to match in a place with less jobs and smaller network effects like Central Ohio than there is in major job centers with more options for lateral moves.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by 908B64B197 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:33PM (#30030825)
I don't get why cost of living is factored at all.

The biggest expense is typically housing. And if you bought the house, it means the biggest expense is... building equity into an asset you can sell afterward.

Keep in mind the engineer who purchased a 2 million house in Palo Alto can sell it for two million, and then move to Ohio to a much cheaper house purchased in cash. The reverse isn't true.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:43PM (#30030919)
You also pay taxes. But you are right that for the first movers it will be an easy transition into living opulantly in Ohio. The same can't be said for the next generation of workers, who graduate and have no capital accrued from working at bay area rates, and start their careers working for these Ohio based employers at Ohio based salary rates, and since Columbus is experiencing the same lack of supply issue everywhere growing faces, this generation are going to find a cutthroat market for them like the current generation of engineers fleeing 2 million dollar homes in Palo Alto.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by fossuser on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:52PM (#30030993)
As long as the market is allowed to build housing to meet demand it's not too bad.

Main issue in Palo Alto (and to a large extent the rest of the bay area) is that there's massive population growth in the bay area, but very little housing is allowed to be built. This creates artificial scarcity and the people that bought houses 30yrs ago accrue massive wealth because of it at the expense of new people (and the new people that manage to buy at exorbitant rates also end up paying the majority share of taxes too).

This is the natural incentive made worse by things like locked property taxes and rent control. You really need legislation that allows the market to build (easier said than done).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by to11mtm on Saturday January 22, 2022 @02:17PM (#30039875)
The (build) supply side of the housing market is complicated.

Remember that even when you aren't hampered by lack of space and/or zoning, most build starts are still 'investments'. I knew a whole lot of folks who did homebuilding in the first decade of the century. Housing starts were all over the place, partially because the investors were sure that with prices rising, it was a sure thing, right?

But then the market glut happened. Housing starts stopped. All of those folks left homebuilding and few if any ever went back to it.

I think nowadays Investors are back to preferring smaller buildouts, potentially in more phases. The supply/labor issues from covid haven't helped things lately though.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Retric on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:14PM (#30031190)
Population isn’t coming from nowhere. You can also directly compare the amounts new housing vs new commercial development in the Bay Area to see what’s going on.

The rules created by existing residents where designed to push up rent and home prices, and they have succeeded.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ericmay on Saturday January 22, 2022 @07:32AM (#30036127)
But unlike Palo Alto, Columbus can expand in all directions indefinitely. So while it may have housing issues, it would be completely surprising for houses to get as expensive or even relatively as expensive as a place like Palo Alto. Though the downside here is because of car-first urban planning and design we will create our own little version of Houston.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by rmah on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:08PM (#30030597)
Is $1300/mo supposed to be high? I've seen parking spaces going for $600/mo where I live.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:28PM (#30030784)
IMO thats high for ohio with the wages seen, considering you can find studios at that rate or 1br for a few hundred more in the LA area.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jeffbee on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:20PM (#30031249)
LA has by far the worst wages-to-rent ratio in the entire nation so I'm a bit skeptical of you claim here. Also note that the other post said a new apartment.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Sunday January 23, 2022 @11:18PM (#30053690)
You are welcome to peruse craigslist and fact check my claim yourself. I do note the poster said new apartment, that poster was me. It is still surprising to me that for the money spent living in Columbus, you can live in LA. Even if the acommodations are a little bit older in the LA example, it's not like you are getting a multibedroom apartment for the price of a studio in LA or anything. Plus minimum wage is $15 in LA and $9.30 in Columbus and more skilled jobs go up from there accordingly (SWE in columbus make like 70-80k probably). Here's a studio clocking in under $1300 in LA in Koreatown, which would be very convenient if you worked in hollywood or downtown LA:

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/apa/d/los-angeles-stud...

Apartments.com says theres like hundreds of studios available at this price range across LA:

https://www.apartments.com/los-angeles-ca/under-1300/

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mNovak on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:43PM (#30031446)
And in a very favorable neighborhood. You can get much cheaper rent in an "up and coming" neighborhood.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Woden501 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @07:24AM (#30036070)
1 bedroom apartments go for closer to $700 or even as low as $400ish in Dayton just an hour and a half south of Columbus. Even here though housing prices are skyrocketing, so that won't be the case for long. Prices in Columbus are going to be absolutely ridiculous once this fab opens unless housing prices plummet for other reasons.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Shocka1 on Monday January 24, 2022 @02:13PM (#30062442)
Agreed on the skyrocketing prices. Local here - I live 15 minutes from where Intel is breaking ground and it's bittersweet to be honest. I make good money for this area as a Software Engineer, but it's not coastal money and I can see the writing on the wall. I grew up in this area and have watched the locals slowly get pushed out. It's somewhat sad, but what can you do? Single family homes have went up 40% in the last five years and I'm guessing it will only get worse. The theory is that Columbus is supposed to grow by one million people in the next five to ten years, so a tech hub in New Albany will only exaggerate this.

All that being said, I have every intention on trying to work for Intel or at the tech hub itself, make my money/deal with it until retirement age, then get the heck out of here and find a place far far away where I can get something that looks and feels like this place once was.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by TaylorAlexander on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:42PM (#30031865)
Sounds like a great time to buy land in Ohio... and get rich off the backs of people actually working there as speculators raise land prices.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Manuel_D on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:13PM (#30030647)
Cost of living is relative. San Francisco is about 50% more expensive than Seattle. Which in turn is about 70% higher than SLC, judging by a quick scan of apartment rents.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:28PM (#30027832)
The midwest has some of the greatest engineering schools in the nation. I have been beating this drum hoarse for a few years now - but it's true. Specifically, members of the Big 10 conference are probably the best engineering schools conference in the world. Within 300 miles from Columbus (where you have Ohio State - Big10), you have Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, UIUC, Indiana, Purdue from the Big 10 along with Carnegie Mellon, Case Western and Pitt. Even the state of California doesn't have so many so good tech schools.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by TheCondor on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:29PM (#30028755)
With a potential $100b investment, it's not about what they have now, it's about what will be in 20 years.

Ohio is a great place for this kind of corporate gentrification. As a CMU grad, I know there was a collective desire to get students to stick around, but there was better lifestyle, more money, etc.. leaving after school and a fairly large number of us weren't from the area to begin with. Something like this can be a game changer for the region, plus, there will be dozens of additional companies that set up camp and start up there for support.

If it really works and the region supports it and leans in, all of the schools anywhere near by will step up their engineering programs.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by NationalPark on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:06PM (#30029256)
Do chip plants employ many engineers? Seems like they would mainly need IT and facilities staff.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tyrfing on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:22PM (#30030732)
Relative to economic output, not really. In absolute terms, yes, because the plants are massive and "facilities staff" misses a lot when you're talking about machines worth 150 million a piece, clean rooms, and billions in depreciation per year.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by AnimalMuppet on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:09PM (#30029286)
They keep the process parameters within the optimal zone. That is considerably more complicated than it sounds. They also work on incremental improvements.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by quocanh on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:42PM (#30029723)
From what I understand, a chip plant's workers have PhDs because when problems arise on the line, they require a lot of knowledge to fix.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by smaddox on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:20PM (#30030695)
The R&D fab(s) definitely have a high number of PhDs. I don't know about the production fabs. PhDs will definitely visit when starting up a new fab or process or when issues need to be addressed.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by s1artibartfast on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:52PM (#30030995)
If it is anything like BioTech, they will. I was shocked when I joined a large firm and realized that the person spending most of their day breaking down boxes and checking log books has a masters from Berkeley. Most of the techs running equipment have masters/Phds.

As I have come to realize, when a mistake or delay costs $XX million, it often makes sense to hire with high educational background. I have also come to realize that your bog standard MS or Phd isn't as talented as you might think.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by QuercusMax on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:14PM (#30031198)
Sadly Ohio's state government doesn't want to invest in higher education. My father was in the physics department at Kent State University (my alma mater) and I remember him complaining year after year about how the state was cutting funding. Really a shame.

Between this, Ohio's shameful anti-LGBTQ laws, and the truly awful racism, it's really like the state is trying to drive people away. I moved to CA 7 years ago and couldn't imagine moving back after talking to friends who are still there.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by pm90 on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:41PM (#30032291)
The incredible University systems in the US are an amazing asset… failure to recognize their value by craven businessmen turned Republican politicians that only understand money is going to be one of the biggest tragedies to befall America.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jollybean on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:14AM (#30034165)
Republicans are pretty good are recognizing the value of good post-secondary education, their leadership still counts good schools as alma mater, even Trump.

They lament some social issues on campus from a populist perspective but sometimes I think it's not always without merit, or at least a discussion.

The political issue is at the elementary and high school level, and it's more about supporting families than it is the schools, where 'teacher quality' is a huge and ridiculous distraction. If every kid got a chance to attend school while living what most of us would call 'Normal Middle Class Circumstances' (i.e. decent parents, stable home, economic stability, no gangs or crime) there would be progress.

This investment is such a hugely important announcement, the number of really high quality jobs ... and the secondary economic factors will be even bigger.

The US Midwest has long been under utilized.

If US leadership could do anything, it would be to convince some of the big SV operators to invest decisively and aggressively in 2cnd and 3rd tier places which are frankly very prepared for it. Ohio, Miami, Raleigh, Michigan, Chicago etc..

Concentration in specific areas has been going on too long and is at least a decade past it's benefit.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by pm90 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:35AM (#30034284)
> Republicans are pretty good are recognizing the value of good post-secondary education, their leadership still counts good schools as alma mater, even Trump.

The assertion wasn’t that Republicans are too stupid to know the value; but that knowing the value, they still want to make it difficult for more people to achieve it.

Rich people recognize the value of money while at the same time denying money to others.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jollybean on Saturday January 22, 2022 @02:07AM (#30034427)
Even if that is the assertion, I still wouldn't agree.

The US spends more on education as a % of GDP than anywhere in the world. And - it has a very high GDP/capita as a starting point. And sends more people on to post-secondary education than most places, more than in most countries were post-secondary is socialized.

Germany, with fully socialized University has to ration it - the end up 'streaming' kids by age 15, and those slots are disproportionately allocated to rich kids, moreover, the number of post-secondary students (in College programs, not internships) is lower than in the US, kind of exacerbating the inequality problem.

To boot, the US has a massive problem with post-secondary debt.

University education itself is not the only key to success, rather, it was historically a status marker of the elite. Since it is not just that anymore, we have to be more practical about who we send to school.

I would argue we have too many liberal arts graduates, and not nearly enough trade programs and internships. While Liberal Arts programs absolutely embellish students with higher order thinking, and it would be nice if everyone could attend ... it's frankly the purview of the people who can afford to pay for it without having that cost related to a job on the other end.

And, given that in the US that basic literacy is still a serious problem for many of those in High School ... do we really think that the quantity of post-secondary students really the problem?

Probably not.

The US does a pretty good job at getting people into post-secondary programs, even when they generally would not be qualified, and it's arguably inefficient.

If this were 1970, then it would be an easy argument of 'getting more people into College'.

But conditions have changed and it's a much more difficult situation.

Keep the bars high and objective instead of trying to send everyone to College by virtue of magical thinking.

Maybe we can graduate everyone from highschool as a matter of social equality, but providing kids with projects they can sink their effort into and especially develop the middle-tier apprenticeship programs (i.e. Germany) would be probably a better approach.

I'll bet $1000 that these Intel Chip Fabs require just as many 'trained specialists' as they do College Grad designers.

I'd also bet $1000 that 'Republicans' (at least practically and ideologically) would back that kind of approach.

We could start by breaking 'Doctor' and 'Nurse' into more categories. By making college only 2 or 3 years + 2 years teachers college instead of requiring a 4 year degree. By defining and regulating some types of skilled trades, possibly even software. Etc.

And of course, probably by raising minimum wage, supporting automation and happily moving out non-productive jobs to Mexico and Vietnam where the net surpluses are greater anyhow.

In 2021, it's reasonable for people to take the position that fudging more people through college is just not the most productive or even equitable approach we should approach.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by someguydave on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:23PM (#30032605)
Republicans would probably be happy to support universities if they were no longer under the control of people who wish them ill.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by wolverine876 on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:02PM (#30033368)
> under the control of people who wish them ill

A bunch of victimhood to excuse their bad actions (and change the subject). So they are sacrificing assets and essential services to the American people for political revenge? They won't provide public goods to Democrats?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by pm90 on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:20PM (#30033045)
Republicans shouldn’t support policies that the most educated members of society find bad enough to wish ill on them.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ericmay on Saturday January 22, 2022 @07:47AM (#30036206)
> Between this, Ohio's shameful anti-LGBTQ laws

Which ones specifically? I’d like to learn more and this is something that I’ll pester my representative about. For Columbus specifically in day-to-day life I’m curious what effect these laws have. We have gay clubs and actually a reputation as a “gay mecca”. In Columbus we also have the doo-dah parade, a gigantic, corporate sponsored gay pride parade, and lots of drag events like during our big Halloween party.

> and the truly awful racism

Eh you can find racism in all 50 states, California included. People say this but it’s just the news talking that’s coloring your opinion.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by QuercusMax on Saturday January 22, 2022 @05:44PM (#30041562)
Ohio passed a law to prevent trans folks from changing their legal gender; a federal court has struck this down, but I'm not sure where that stands.

They also have laws that allow medical providers to refuse treatment to LGBTQ.

This is just from a few moments on Google; there's a wiki article with more info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ohio

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by 0xedd on Monday January 24, 2022 @06:04AM (#30056039)
Why would a mentally disordered person be allowed to dictate his own treatment? That is ludicrous.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...

Regardless of your political stance on the matter, this is off topic. You should ask yourself why you feel compelled to thrust this subject here.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jscipione on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:03PM (#30032931)
Go Buckeyes!
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by V_Terranova_Jr on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:40AM (#30033987)
Even as a product of one of those schools, I think the comparison against CA might be going a bit far, but as long as we're talking perceptions/stereotypes...

In Aerospace, within both U.S. government and industry, midwest engineering schools are widely seen as producing more undegrad-level engineers who actually want to be engineers than places like Stanford.

Stanford, in particular, seems to attract proportionally way more engineering majors that want to use engineering credentials as a gateway out of engineering (high finance, startup executives, management, etc.). A colleague of mine in Big Aerospace says there's a pretty consistent pattern of not being able to hang on to many Stanford or MIT grads for very long. Granted Big Aerospace can be a miserable place to work in a number of ways, but if you want to hone your craft in a number of aerospace disciplines, you'll need some level of exposure to that kind of knowledge/experience-base. You're not going to get that at the next delivery drone or flying taxi startup.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:24PM (#30043612)
Not really. There is a whole wide world outside CS - mechanical, chemical, materials. And while Berkeley, Stanford, UCSB are amazing in them Caltech for example is not and is just over hyped.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by rxhernandez on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:41PM (#30028042)
I'm sure there's more great ones in California but I can count 14 off the top of my head; I think all of them are nearly within 300 miles of LA too.

1. Caltech

2. Stanford

3. Cal

4. UCLA

5. Harvey Mudd

6. USC

7. UCSD

8. UCD

9. UCSB

10. CPSLO

11. UCI

12. CPP

13. UCSC

14. UCR

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by adamcstephens on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:05PM (#30029990)
The other difference, which parent didn’t mention, is the Ohio has plenty of water.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by vanattab on Saturday January 22, 2022 @02:19PM (#30039907)
And it doesn't even catch on fire anymore!

https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Cuyahoga_River_Fire

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by axiolite on Saturday January 22, 2022 @04:47PM (#30041143)
> Ohio has plenty of water

California has 840 miles of coast line. Absolutely no shortage of water.

Desalination and PV technology keep improving, too.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by adamcstephens on Monday January 24, 2022 @12:19PM (#30060703)
Desalination is awesome, and I love to see it improve. No matter how good it is, it won’t be cheaper than water that is available in rivers and aquifers.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ericmay on Sunday January 23, 2022 @09:01AM (#30046174)
Idk what we consider the “Midwest to be” but here are some schools generally in the area that are good. Happy to delete any you don’t like. No particular order. ;)

1. Northwestern

2. Notre Dame

3. Wisconsin Madison

4. Ohio State

5. Minnesota Twin Cities

6. Carnegie Mellon

7. University of Chicago

8. Purdue

9. Penn St

10. Washington University St. Louis

11. UIUC

12. Case Western

13. Michigan

So there are plenty of world class educational institutions in the Midwest. Frankly I’d take this list over your list and that’s not including other brand name universities like Indiana, Pitt, Michigan State, Nebraska, or Iowa, some of which do “non-sexy” research in agricultural science and other fields. Ohio State has the only undergraduate wedding engineering program in North America even. It really is an absolute powerhouse of a region with far more national brand name recognition and reputation and monster enrollment numbers.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by empthought on Sunday January 23, 2022 @11:26AM (#30047428)
Cornell (ever heard of it?) is just as close to Columbus as UW-Madison is.

California has all that stuff because it’s literally further from SF to LA than it is from Columbus to DC.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ericmay on Sunday January 23, 2022 @03:16PM (#30050026)
> Cornell (ever heard of it?) is just as close to Columbus as UW-Madison is.

I was just going off of the “Midwest” versus distance.

> California has all that stuff because it’s literally further from SF to LA than it is from Columbus to DC.

Yea it’s a big state. I’d love to go off of distance though so we can include lots of other fantastic universities just to further drive home my point.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Bayart on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:54PM (#30028226)
I know what one of those acronyms means.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mikestew on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:26PM (#30029516)
If you substitute "University of California" for "UC", you'll be able to decipher a lot more of them if you know your California cities. For example, "UCSD" translates to "UC San Diego". "CP" gets you "California Polytechnical", but good luck sussing "SLO" unless you've been anywhere near San Luis Obispo.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Bayart on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:55PM (#30031558)
> you'll be able to decipher a lot more of them if you know your California cities

Oh I know plenty of Californian cities, such as Los Angeles, San Francisco and Google.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jasonlotito on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:53PM (#30028209)
I mean, if you are going to count campuses, Penn State has like 20+ alone.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:00PM (#30028313)
It sounds like maybe you think UCLA and Berkeley are as closely related as the different campuses of Penn State, but that is far from the truth.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by outside1234 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#30029949)
Caltech, Stanford, Cal, and Harvey Mudd are on the same tier with Purdue, Michigan, Illinois, CM.

The other ones are good schools, but in a distinctly second tier to that group.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by rxhernandez on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:18PM (#30030689)
You think UCLA, USC, and UCSD are second tier? Last I checked, UCSD is #9 for engineering in the nation, which is above UIUC at #10. USC is #12 and UCLA is #16 relative to Columbia at #15, John Hopkins at #17, Harvard at #21, Princeton at #22, and UW at #22.

What on earth do you mean by second tier?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ensan on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:06PM (#30032948)
That’s such an ignorant statement.

For example, when it comes to hardware & electrical engineering, UCSD alone is as productive as say Purdue & Illinois combined. And it’s a young university too.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:27PM (#30043631)
And when it comes to materials science, Penn State will run circles around all of them.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by wolverine876 on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:03PM (#30033384)
Caltech, Standford, and Berkeley are well ahead of the Midwestern schools.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by hailvectron on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:19AM (#30033875)
"Ahead" by what metric? Perceived prestige level by the layperson?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by wolverine876 on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @11:35AM (#30073881)
By professionals and by their peers. By what metric are the Midwestern schools on the same level?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by today20201014 on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:41PM (#30032294)
Harvey Mudd is an undergraduate-only college. All the others are R1 institutions.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jerrybender on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:33PM (#30033600)
The two Cal Polys are not R1 institutions, they do not offer PhDs.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:27PM (#30043626)
Stanford and Berkeley are amazing, Caltech is definitely tier 2, while Harvey Mudd is not even an R2 school
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by dragonwriter on Sunday January 23, 2022 @03:24PM (#30050093)
> I think all of them are nearly within 300 miles of LA too.

No, Davis, Berkeley, and Stanford are all 350+ miles from LA.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:25PM (#30043617)
I will take Stanford and the UCs. Every other school in that list comes below the Midwestern powerhouses
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ensan on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:00PM (#30032909)
You forgot Berkeley.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by rxhernandez on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:09PM (#30033422)
Cal == Berkeley
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ensan on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:52PM (#30033290)
“members of the Big 10 conference are probably the best engineering schools conference in the world.”

1- Big 10 is not an “engineering school conference”.

2- In what world is Pitt a prominent engineering school? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mmmBacon on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:44PM (#30030399)
The problem is not the schools in the Midwest but that many don’t want to live in the Midwest. I am married into a family from Illinois but they have all left or are leaving because they are tired of the weather. I also went to grad school in Illinois and never considered staying after I finished. I did actually like it but wasn’t a place I wanted to stay forever.

University of Illinois at Urbana Champagne was the pre-eminent school for Computer Science. It’s still a fantastic school but most don’t seem to want to live in a cornfield.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:58PM (#30028289)
CMU, CWRU, UMich, UIUC, and Indiana U are wonderful schools, but none of them are in Ohio [correction: I'm an idiot, CWRU is]. OSU doesn't belong in that list.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by hardolaf on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:30PM (#30028779)
My undergraduate degree in ECE at OSU went far more in-depth on topics and set me up far better than the graduate programs at Purdue or UIUC do in their first year of graduate school. A huge part of that is that OSU's ECE department does not have senior-level courses. They only have senior/graduate courses. So the seniors are taking graduate level courses (when I went there, at least 4 were required to graduate). Also, you list Indiana U? Really? I'm sorry, but it's second-tier compared to Purdue.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:49PM (#30029017)
Purdue has a great reputation but I don't know anything about it personally except via Eugene Spafford. I may be biased because I like Scheme — SICP was a life-changing epiphany for me, and Essentials of Programming Languages was also quite revelatory — and Indiana has done a lot of inspiring Scheme work. I don't know of anything of similar importance from OSU but maybe they're really great in CPU design or subthreshold logic families or something?

As for getting in-depth information on topics, you don't need a university for that anymore. Library Genesis and sci-hub has more in-depth information on topics than you could ever possibly absorb, assuming it's legal in your country. What universities uniquely offer is community, financial support, and research: without universities, sci-hub would be a pretty empty place.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by hardolaf on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:25PM (#30030201)
You're not going to learn electrical and computer engineering by reading stuff on Sci-Hub. You might get some knowledge, but so much is just simply never published that it's essentially tribal knowledge. Heck, even with professors walking you through every step of learning the topics, it's hard.

As for computer architecture, OSU is not heavily into computer architecture. It's much more focused on custom accelerators and ASICs as well as semiconductor research. And it is recognized as one of the best ECE programs in the world with one of the main problems with it being that the CS department is comparatively weak.

My graduating class, in a December, was still over 1,000 engineers. Spring graduation typically had 2.5-3.5K/yr.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:06PM (#30031641)
I appreciate the correction about OSU's EE department. I'm probably unfairly prejudiced against them because mostly I read in CS.

I'd make a stronger statement than "You're not going to learn electrical and computer engineering by reading stuff on Sci-Hub." You aren't going to learn by reading. You have to actually do stuff in order to construct the knowledge inside your own mind, and as you say, that's hard. But the information is available, even if it isn't academically published; in electrical engineering, in addition to sci-hub stuff, you have Bob Pease columns, appnotes (especially the ones from Analog and Linear), The Art of Electronics, EEVblog, allaboutcircuits, Hackaday, Marco Reps, Camenzind's book, Jeri Ellsworth's Short Circuits, Don Lancaster's website, Forrest Mims's books, patents, Adafruit, etc. LTSpice is proprietary but gratis, while QUCS, ngSpice, and WR-SPICE are free software, and now you can get stuff mostly automatically fabbed by JLCPCB for ridiculously low prices. And with the rise of iceSTORM it's becoming practical to design gateware without signing a support contract with Xilinx. Just like the undergraduate EECE curriculum, a lot of this stuff is aimed at beginners (you can learn a lot by fiddling with Falstad's circuit.js even if it doesn't do Monte Carlo simulation), so it doesn't go very deep, but some of it is very much not.

(Still, there is a lot of information that isn't publicly available at all, because it's a trade secret of TSMC or Lam Research or Intel. But the professors aren't walking undergraduates through that stuff either.)

The huge thing about custom accelerators and ASICs and semiconductor research, though, is that you can't really do it in your basement. MPW/shuttle programs like MOSIS and CMP go a long way to making chip design accessible, but it's going to be tough to even run DRCs on your designs without proprietary software, and then it still costs you US$10k to get back 10 chips that don't work. Going to a university for EECE, even for undergrad, might give you the chance to go through that painful cycle enough times to actually get something working, and the mentorship you need to find out what you don't know.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by outside1234 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:06PM (#30029994)
Purdue is an engineering factory. It is both quality and quantity.

There were 1800 engineers in my graduating class (1995).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by N1H1L on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:21PM (#30043598)
Penn State is actually US's largest engineering school by undergraduates.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tourist_on_road on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:23PM (#30029467)
Something to note -- Indiana U doesn't have engineering stream unlike Purdue. Only thing close to engineering is computer science and Intelligent systems engineering.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by outside1234 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:07PM (#30030013)
Right - Indiana splits up subjects across universities so they can focus money. It is by design that Purdue is the engineering school and Indiana is the liberal arts school.

IU is a great liberal arts school - but doesn't compete in engineering by design.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by justin66 on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:10PM (#30028462)
I can assure you that CWRU is still in Cleveland, Ohio.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:26PM (#30028707)
Ugh, how embarrassing. Of course it is. And it's still a great school. Unlike U of Indiana, I haven't been to CWRU. Thank you for the correction.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by justin66 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:33PM (#30030289)
No need for embarrassment but I do wonder where you momentarily thought it was. :)

One night while struggling with a problem for work I took a walk and wandered by where I calculated the IBM 650 must have been located back in the day, hoping for some kind of inspiration, or something. It was a good distraction but it did not work at all.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by GeorgeTirebiter on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:00PM (#30029926)
Do you know where Don Knuth did his undergrad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth for the answer. Then, he wised up and came out here... ;-)
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:17PM (#30030122)
Yup! That's where the much-honored Type 650 was.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by graycat on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:13PM (#30028509)
"U of Indiana"? Used to be called Indiana University (IU)?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:17PM (#30028565)
Corrected, thanks, I'm an idiot. And I've actually been there.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by graycat on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:21PM (#30029442)
I was a math grad student at IU. The place had one heck of a good music school, say, comparable to the best in the world. An Isaac Stern protege, later a concert master, violin prof, conductor, etc., put his old Italian violin under my left chin, and I was hooked.

Took a violin course; the teacher, one on one, was FAR too good for what I needed and later played the Brahms concerto in Toronto! According to the rules, at the end had to play for the violin faculty, including the former concert master of the Cleveland Symphony -- poor guy! Eventually I made it through much of the Bach E Major Partita and the Chaconne! Great fun! Met my wife.

The math department had some good mathematicians. The weekly seminar flew in some of the best mathematicians in the world. Later where I got my Ph.D., at a much more famous school, the seminars were nowhere near as good.

As a grad student, since I was teaching ugrad courses, I got paid, enough actually to live nicely, e.g., eat all my meals in restaurants, and save some money!

But I didn't fit into their program: (1) My first semester they put me in their abstract algebra course. Okay: I'd done well in a similar course in ugrad school, and my ugrad honors paper was on group representations. So that I wouldn't have to waste time in the course, the prof and I had an unspoken agreement: At the end he gave me a little oral exam in his office -- I went through some Galois theory! (2) They put me in a topology course, from the famous book by Kelley. In the first class, the prof said that the homework was to work all the exercises! HA! Some of the exercises were notoriously difficult! I wondered if HE could work all the exercises! Besides, in ugrad school I'd taken a reading course from that book -- once a week gave a lecture to a prof, chapter by chapter, one week on the theorems and the next week on the exercises. For the material on Moore-Smith convergence, a second prof showed up -- maybe he wanted to learn some about that topic! I wrote out solutions to about 1/3rd of the exercises (to be honest not the same ~1/3rd I'd done in ugrad), turned them in at the end, and did show for the final exam. (3) They put me in a real analysis course. On the first test, with just one exercise, in set theory, the prof wanted to "see me after class". He had marked my test paper as wrong. Gee, I doubt that many students got that exercise. Since the previous summer I'd had a course in axiomatic set theory, the test was easy for me. When I explained to the prof that my notation, I didn't have time on the test to define, was standard, he saw that (A) my solution was correct and (B), as we both noticed and he confessed, was one step shorter than his. I didn't know that prof, had never had any interaction with him, but concluded he was for whatever reason on my case. My victory over him on that test was enough for me -- I never saw him again. No biggie loss: The book he was using was awful, e.g., was just some typed notes -- Royden, one of the best math texts ever, was MUCH better!

So, net, I did my teaching, used some of the money I was getting, more than I needed, to have fun while saving some money, did my teaching, met my wife, and started violin -- I liked it!

Since that was Indiana, that is, out in the Midwest flat farming country, a lot of the other grad math students were pretty good athletes. So one afternoon I showed up at the volley ball game those students held. Soon I was very much not wanted! I was the last to be chosen! And soon even the other team would make sure I never got to touch the ball! Those guys took athletics VERY seriously, much more seriously than the math!

But in the ugrad teaching, nearly all the girls tried hard to look pretty and be sweet! One course I taught was some math for elementary education majors. There were maybe 30 students in the class. There was one boy there, maybe looking to meet the girls! So, all the rest were girls. And they had their career direction decided, no doubt, high determination -- they'd get a teaching certificate, a husband, a home, and some babies. NO DOUBT! And they were just AWFUL at that math, and soon just terrified of it! Due to the influence of computing, I had to teach them about base 2 and base 16 -- that was more painful for them than having their teeth pulled! I also taught calculus, trigonometry, etc., and in those courses the girls did fine, no angst! So, there was something about elementary education majors!!!

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lief79 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:01PM (#30030533)
Many years ago, I did some tutoring for a friend in elementary education math. It was sorta neat, in that they were teaching them different number theories (in practice some discrete math) and forcing them to learn how to work with numbers in much the same way their first students would. It was smart and made a lot of sense when viewed in this manner.

The problem was the author of the book had no idea why they were doing this, or what the purpose of this was. It provided the curriculum, but had already lost the inherent reason behind it.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by throwawayboise on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:27PM (#30030218)
> As a grad student, since I was teaching ugrad courses, I got paid, enough actually to live nicely

When was this? Nowadays the grad students are constantly complaining that they don't get paid enough to live and mandatory fees are too high.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by graycat on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:28PM (#30039407)
When? As above, a long time ago!
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by kragen on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:29PM (#30029562)
That sounds wonderful! Except for the elementary education majors and the volleyball. Are you still in touch with people there?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by graycat on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:53PM (#30030475)
"still in touch"? Naw. That was a long time ago!

The money: I lived with low rent, in a dorm that had the option of no meals in a university cafeteria. Since I was teaching, I paid no tuition and, as I remember, paid no fees. My teaching was a bargain for the university, i.e., I was no doubt MUCH cheaper per course taught than a prof. They had me teaching a wide variety of courses and, one semester, two courses. That wasn't fair to me, but I didn't mind.

It was an old dorm, REALLY nice. And it was next to the music school and, still, not far from the math department or lots of places to eat.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by octoberfranklin on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:21PM (#30032151)
> members of the Big 10 conference

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that football leagues are used to categorize engineering institutions?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by cleansingfire on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:45PM (#30033239)
Wait until you learn what the Ivy League is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League?wprov=sfti1

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by danielvaughn on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:31PM (#30030251)
Not sure if Colorado counts as midwest but there's also the School of Mines outside Denver. Very good engineering school.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by brewdad on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:30PM (#30030801)
School of Mines is 1,300 miles from this location. It's not really relevant compared to the others on the the list.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by grapescheesee on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:55AM (#30034366)
Minnesota has several semi conductor fabs. Seagate and Polar are both right by the MSP airport.

Not sure the NM sizes being made at these sites off hand.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by moralestapia on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:35PM (#30027951)
My two c, I have been left with a very good impression of people from Penn State and Michigan State, very talented and diligent at work.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jnorthrop on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:23PM (#30027739)
Not to mention low probability of natural disasters: Earthquakes, tornados, wild fire, hurricanes, etc.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by theandrewbailey on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:08PM (#30028422)
Half of Ohio is flat, and gets lots of storms that blow through the plains and prairies from the west, so not exactly low probability of tornadoes.

Source: I grew up in central Ohio. Public schools made it a point to practice tornado drills. In addition, there was an old Cold War-era air raid siren a block from the house I grew up in that had been repurposed and tested for tornado warnings. One of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9rRSY0dRIU

Edit: read about Xenia, Ohio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia,_Ohio

> Xenia has a history of severe storm activity. According to local legend, the Shawnee referred to the area as "the place of the devil wind" or "the land of the crazy winds" (depending upon the translation).

> On April 3, 1974, a tornado rated F5 on the Fujita scale cut a path directly through the middle of Xenia during the 1974 Super Outbreak

> Xenia was struck by an F2 tornado on April 25, 1989, and again by an F4 tornado on September 20, 2000.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by eeeeeeehio on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:33PM (#30030287)
Even large, damaging tornadoes have quite localized impacts (max of maybe a mile in path width) -- and you don't generally do much more than stay up to building code in order to prepare for one. In contrast, earthquakes devastate entire areas and require substantial changes to building construction in order to protect against them.

The probability of a large, damaging tornado at a particular spot in Ohio is quite small compared with the risk of damaging earthquakes in other locations. https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-probability-earthquake-will-o...

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by grayfaced on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:27PM (#30031299)
Tornado protection is mostly about avoiding damage in the periphery of a tornado. A building of that size can't realistically be protected from a direct hit of a major tornado. Proper engineering can protect a building from basically all earthquakes. Whether the contents inside are secured properly is a different matter and that's where most damage occurs.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by CamperBob2 on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:34PM (#30031366)
you don't generally do much more than stay up to building code in order to prepare for one.

Interesting. I'm unfamiliar with building code provisions that are designed to mitigate the effects of tornadoes, which are arguably the most destructive force on Earth apart from an erupting volcano or a nuclear attack, on a semiconductor fab, which is arguably among the most sensitive and easily-disrupted facilities ever built. Any good sources for further reading?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:16PM (#30030110)
You just get different natural disasters. Flooding that could damage your basement and foundation and prevent you from accessing certain roads is a regular occurrence, some people are always pumping out their basements every time it rains. A bad roof you could get away with in California where it rains 5 x a year could quickly spiral into more expensive rot and repairs in places that see heavy rains. Storms can still fall trees onto your house or car. Snowstorms often don't stop your employer from demanding your presence in the office or schools from closing because we are supposedly hardy in the midwest, and increasingly as the weather gets milder, ice storms that manifest as rain during the day but dangerous ice as soon as the sun sets and temperatures fall, coating your car in an inch thick layer of ice when you leave for work in the morning. And plus when the west burns up in flames, the smoke plume wafts east and settles down on the midwest, giving you the bad air anyhow. Speaking of air quality, if you have any allergies, the midwest is also not for you. You get slammed from pollen both from a variety of seasonal weeds, as well as from the intensive agriculture performed in the region.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by politician on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:59PM (#30028298)
Access to large amounts of fresh water.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mrfusion on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:42PM (#30028931)
Low geopolitical risk is probably one of the best factors.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mNovak on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:15PM (#30029363)
Fun fact, Ohio was supposedly high on the Soviet nuke target list, because of Wright Patterson AFB, which houses the Air Force Research Lab (and aliens).

I have an old Soviet invasion map of central Ohio, marking all potential airfields etc.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by dayofthedaleks on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:25PM (#30030202)
There's a lot more to it than urban legends. A FEMA publication[1] from 1990 has a map on page 86 with assumed Ohio targets.

Tiny Waverly would have definitely been wiped off the map because of its fuel refining facility. There's a non-zero chance I keep my EMP-proof diesel truck running due to growing up in those times.

[1] https://www.jumpjet.info/Emergency-Preparedness/Hazard-Maps/...

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by mNovak on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:14PM (#30031192)
A couple people asked so I snapped some photos: https://imgur.com/a/wlN5aAe

Looks to be a 1:500,000 topo map of the Ohio/Kentucky/WV border. You can see Columbus and I think Dayton at the top. Google translate via camera is a real charm here.

Apologies in advance for Imgur, but two other services I tried simply didn't work /sigh.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by woobar on Saturday January 22, 2022 @07:11PM (#30042250)
Why do you think this is an invasion map? It's just a map.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tmp538394722 on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:43PM (#30029726)
The small town I grew up in also had a specific Soviet doomsday theory. Which in hindsight, doesn’t feel very plausible.

In the wake of the George Floyd protests family talked about their concern that out of state “Antifa looters” were spotted driving down the interstate headed right for them.

I don’t mean to call you a liar, Im sure there indeed are some obscure targets, and your home might be one.

I do think it’s a fascinating phenomenon- this idea of small town obsession with their own destruction.

A quote from Terrence Malick’s BadLands goes something like:

> and if the reds ever do drop the bomb, well I hope they drop it right here in Rapid City (South Dakota).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by justin66 on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:24PM (#30031277)
In fairness to the parent poster, in the event of nuclear war an Air Force base with two runways longer than two miles each isn't an obscure target, it's just a target.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by vanattab on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:22PM (#30039341)
It's not just two runways it's the headquarters of the USAF Matrials Command since 1961 I think. Which is the biggest airforce command (by budget). They are responsible for running most R&D labs of the Airforce and for procuring new weapon systems and airplanes. It certainly would have been a major target. Dayton in many ways is still the birth place of new trends in aviation.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by justin66 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @07:52PM (#30042532)
Guess which is a more important target to the enemy in the event of an all-out war: the runways, hangars, and fuel facilities or the research and development offices. (I mean, it's sort of an academic question if a well-placed enemy warhead makes it through...)
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Edman274 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @09:56PM (#30043190)
In the imagined scenario of a 1980s MAD first-strike, it's wherever the nuclear missile silos are. There's a lot of farmland around Dayton. I would not rule out the possibility that there is at least one nuclear launch site near Wright Patterson AFB.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by justin66 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @11:09PM (#30043557)
The location of nuclear launch silos in the US is not a secret.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Armisael16 on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:00PM (#30032426)
An Air Force base hosting one of the nine major commands doesn’t seem like an obscure target…
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by xhrpost on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:24PM (#30029486)
Lol, growing up in Ohio I've heard this same thing but for various different reasons over the years. Would be interesting to see an authoritative source if one exists
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by echelon on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:06PM (#30030005)
> I have an old Soviet invasion map

Can you please post this? That sounds so interesting.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by dayofthedaleks on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:41PM (#30030369)
https://www.sovietmaps.com/

Also I submitted that link as a fresh thread [1], because this admittedly fun rabbit hole has little to do with Intel and Columbus' sprawl.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30030346

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by vkou on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:01PM (#30032006)
I don't believe there's a town of any note in the United States that wasn't the target of at least one of the 30,000 Soviet nuclear weapons.

I don't think there's a city in the United States that isn't an active target of at least one of the 6,000 current Russian nuclear weapons.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Melatonic on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:59PM (#30031062)
I have a book that is all those old soviet maps - amazing how detailed they were. All hand drawn and they had detail down to individual houses and streets. Many time those maps were more detailed than the ones the US was making about itself!
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by robbintt on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:32PM (#30029603)
Yep - one of my classrooms in Ohio was in the old fallout shelter. I saw the signs with radioactive label every morning going into the building. The location is now demolished.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by paulv on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:33PM (#30030282)
Same. My high school was very near a GE plant in northern Cincinnati and I frequently heard how we were a target because of that. Seems plausible but based on other comments in this post, it may have just been cold war propaganda.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by s5300 on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:58PM (#30029909)
We also have a particle accelerator in Southern Ohio, I’ve heard it would be on a lower priority tier of things to nuke/otherwise destroy. Not sure how accurate the statement was, but I think it was from somewhere credible enough…

Wright Patt definitely has some high level stuff stored, I have a few friends who work engineering there.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by inglor_cz on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:37PM (#30029664)
"old Soviet invasion map"

Soviets had a concrete plan to invade Ohio? Wow. How were the troops supposed to cross the ocean?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by dylan604 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#30030331)
>How were the troops supposed to cross the ocean?

The invaders would cross the ocean from an orbital path streaking in as multiple units launched from submersed platforms or silos in the Motherland raining down from heaven. Those invaders would not need to put a single boot on the ground.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Melatonic on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:00PM (#30031071)
They had more detailed maps of most of the US than the US had at the time.

https://www.wired.com/2015/07/secret-cold-war-maps/

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by brewdad on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:20PM (#30030706)
When I was growing up the rumor was that both sides had enough nukes to destroy the entire earth 10x over. I have no idea whether that is even close to true but at that point every city is a target because, why not?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by PKop on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:41PM (#30029706)
Do you have a link to this map?
[dead]
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by dang on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:25PM (#30033088)
We've asked you many times to stop posting flamebait to HN. If you keep doing it, we're going to have to ban you. I don't want to ban you, so please stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:19PM (#30030144)
Low Geopolitical risk but high risk to personal liberties, especially if you are a woman. Look at Ohio and its slow decline from purple into red state. Gerrymandered to hell and back too to prevent this from changing in the foreseeable future, and a state democratic party that is powerless against the state republicans who have secured tenures for life thanks to their inventive mapmaking processes. Companies move to Ohio because a corrupt politician offered them a cherry deal on property like this more often than not.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by decremental on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#30030379)
Name exactly one personal liberty afforded to women in California that is not afforded to women in Ohio.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by KerrAvon on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:04PM (#30030566)
You must not be aware of the ongoing threats to abortion in Ohio?

https://www.abortionislegalinohio.com/

You can say that it's not technically illegal now, but it's unquestionably under assault in a way that it's not and won't ever be in California.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tick_tock_tick on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:23PM (#30030735)
So you're saying maybe in the future there might be an issue?

Also plenty of people here want to ban abortion too. Tons of small counties have managed to prevent any kind of reproductive health clinics from opening or defacto forced them to close.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lotsofpulp on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:31PM (#30031342)
Makes sense to me to play to where the ball will likely be, not currently is, if your investment timeframe will be many years in the future. I believe Texas just effectively came to within an inch of banning abortions outright, but effectively they reduced people’s access to it.

My prediction is state governments will make a big difference in quality of life for many people.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by vanattab on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:29PM (#30039414)
I agree! Good luck with the state government of California.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by sangnoir on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:17PM (#30030682)
I was going to say the same as you did: SCOTUS may very well make the legality of abortion a state-controlled issue, so that's definitely at risk in Ohio.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lotsofpulp on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:35PM (#30031384)
Ohio has no parental leave laws, especially ones that provide women with automatic 6 to 8 weeks of disability leave for the period before and after childbirth.

California does. CA also has other protections beyond federal ones for breastfeeding and other pregnancy related accommodations, and gives employees the right to sit at work if they do not need to stand.

I would not raise my kids in a state outside of CA to WA and NJ to MA and IL just for this reason.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by maccolgan on Saturday January 22, 2022 @12:40AM (#30033990)
> Ohio has no parental leave laws, especially ones that provide women with automatic 6 to 8 weeks of disability leave for the period before and after childbirth.

How is this a "personal liberty" thing? This in turn is probably violating the freedom of association that employers have...

>breastfeeding and other pregnancy related accommodations, and gives employees the right to sit at work if they do not need to stand

All of these trade one liberty for the other.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lotsofpulp on Saturday January 22, 2022 @08:39AM (#30036498)
Of course, there is no free lunch. But nature dictates that if you want society to have workers in the future, women need to make a huge sacrifice.

So you can either worry about the small picture and employers losing a little freedom about who they have to employ. Or you can look at the big picture and realize that for women to maintain financial independence and still be incentivized to have kids, society needs to offer them something.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by danielvaughn on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:29PM (#30030234)
The first thing I thought about was tornados, actually. That Amazon facility in Missouri was just totally flattened back in December. Given the cost of manufacturing chips, it seems like it would be a huge loss if it was hit.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by renewedrebecca on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:02PM (#30031091)
Columbus doesn't typically get strong tornadoes, although with climate change, anything is possible.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by 015a on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:38PM (#30027990)
Also, within "can still drive home every couple months to see the family" distance of UIUC and Purdue, which are two of the top ten Electrical Engineering and Computer Science universities in the US.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by zanecodes on Saturday January 22, 2022 @04:20AM (#30035077)
And Rose-Hulman!
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by amelius on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:42PM (#30028932)
For a fab, every US location is probably better than Taiwan. That's to say: it probably doesn't matter that much where they put it.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tracker1 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:25PM (#30030761)
I'm somewhat concerned for Taiwan though... At least having a headstart on chip production gives them some cover from those who would be more likely to step in as China makes strides towards potential invasion. Could make HK look like a beach party.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by fpoling on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:14PM (#30031196)
The chip progress by TSMC was made possible by ASML from The Netherlands that supplied them with ultraviolet lithography machines. Those are real example of techno magic with ASML solving many really hard issues much sooner then was expected.

Surely TSMC advanced the process itself, but Samsung and Intel are not that far behind. But all of 3 use ASML technology and it is not allowed to be exported to China or Russia for that matter. Attacking Taiwan will make a prospect of getting that for China even more unlikely.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by systemvoltage on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:47PM (#30032803)
People don't know this but ASML litho machines are also made in USA - at the Wilson factory in Connecticut: https://www.asml.com/en/careers/working-at-asml/united-state...

Here is a tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El8-Kqv6vLE

ASML also has a huge R&D campus in San Diego doing cutting edge lithography research. I applied for a job there a couple of years ago.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tracker1 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:22PM (#30030727)
I think it's more about diversifying locations for labor pooling... Phoenix is growing and now going to have fabs for Intel, Samsung and TSMC. I think it's more about hedging or spreading out the labor pool a bit more and less competition.

As for location, in terms of shipping, they're probably about on par to each other. Not sure how stable it is regarding weather conditions, or natural disaster risk in Ohio vs Arizona though.

In either case, it's good to see some uptick in distributed manufacturing. Concentrating most high technology infrastructure into a relatively small region has proven a disaster when problems inevitably happen.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by coredog64 on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:57PM (#30033337)
Not everyone wants to live in Arizona. Picking a location with natural greenery expands the labor pool.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by axiolite on Saturday January 22, 2022 @04:39PM (#30041086)
> Picking a location with natural greenery expands the labor pool.

This is provably false. The US population is fleeing the areas with the most natural greenery, migrating south and west. The south western US is primarily dry desert.

"As of the 2010 Census, Nevada was the fastest-growing state in the United States, with an increase of 35.1% in the last ten years. Additionally, Arizona (24.6%), Utah (23.8%), Texas (20.6%), and Colorado (16.9%) were all in the top ten fastest-growing states as well" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_United_States#Cit...

Greenery is nice. Warm weather is also nice. Lack of things like ice storms, fog, black ice, trees falling on power lines, etc., is nice, too.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by jeffbee on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:47PM (#30028114)
Ohio has a lot going for it, geographically. It has major pre-war cities that contain identifiable centers. It has the same overall population density as Spain. Its major cities could easily be served by high-speed rail. It has a reliable source of fresh water. If it weren't for its across-the-board anti-government slate of elected officials, it could regain its prominence among the states.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by asdff on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:25PM (#30030206)
The worst thing going for Ohio is the political landscape. An effort to restart passenger rail with a line from Cleveland to Akron was killed in the early 2000s, thanks to a small township of like 2000 people that would have had to hear a passenger train in addition to the freight rail traffic currently using the rail line already in place in their back yard. Regional planning is impossible with such a selfish and fractured political foundation, not to mention the gerrymandering done by statehouse republicans that maintains this state of dysfunction and pushes the state red.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lr4444lr on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:17PM (#30030111)
Does it have a sufficiently educated workforce, or can it convince enough of one to move there, though?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by gaoshan on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:28PM (#30030227)
It has Ohio State University. One of the largest Universities in the world (50,000-ish students) and one that has been rising in the rankings steadily over the last couple of decades. It's quite a decent public school today. There are over a dozen colleges and universities right in and around the city.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by fault1 on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:19PM (#30031238)
It's Columbus, so yes. It's also one of the fastest growing cities in the upper midwest, afaik.

There are a ton of good big10 engineering schools, and columbus should be able to draw from the east coast as well, since it's a LOT less expensive (currently).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by lacker on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:16PM (#30031215)
There are many smart people who grew up in the Midwest and want to stay there. A lot of Midwestern public schools have pretty good engineering programs, it's not just OSU, there's also Michigan, UIUC, Purdue. These cheap midwestern cities seem like a pretty good place to put high-tech manufacturing in the US.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by MichiganHere on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:32PM (#30030264)
One of the reasons Amazon didn't come to Michigan was because there wasn't enough programmers.

There was actually enough programmers, but they had to compete with automotive wages which are typically above 6 figures.

Ohio doesn't have that industry, so it might be a way to get cheap educated labor that would otherwise move out of state.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by destitude on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:11PM (#30028480)
They are extremely anti-renewable energy though. There was attempt (not sure if it passed) to make wind turbines illegal.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by llbeansandrice on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:19PM (#30029412)
I think this is due to a lot of money in the region coming from things like coal and natural gas. There's a _lot_ of money to be had for folks that just happen to own land that sits above valuable minerals.

I've only ever seen billboards for "clean coal" in SE Ohio, SW PA, and West Virginia.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:26PM (#30029514)
Except there really isn't that much money in Coal - and Ohio doesn't has little of it anyway.

Ohio produces 1/20th the coal of WV - which is a much more economically poor state - and coal isn't even really that important to WV's economy. Ohio's economy is much more similar to PA - and PA produces 10x more coal: https://www.eia.gov/coal/production/weekly/

Coal is all politics.

I mean, it is still used for a lot of energy production - almost everywhere in the US - Ohio definitely: https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=OH.

I'm sure power plants don't want to shut down overnight because someone bans coal completely - and they shouldn't. But it's just not economical in most places - the plants are phasing out naturally almost everywhere.

The less scale there is with coal - the less viable it becomes. It's a vicious cycle.

Power plants naturally phasing out because coal isn't economical will have almost 0 impact on Ohio.

Places like WV - that's a different story. WV sells coal! Ohio doesn't.

Coal also doesn't employ people like it used to. It employs 3,000 people in Ohio: https://www.ohiocoal.com/information-library/history-coal-mi.... That's out of a ~5.4M labor force: https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh.htm. That's ~0.05% of the workforce... Even WV is only ~0.15%...

It's really only important to a few barons who want coal to stick around long after it's economically viable (the governor of WV).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ct0 on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:00PM (#30029152)
Sounds more like they are anti turbine. Where does someone put a turbine when it's at the end of its life?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by penneyd on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:12PM (#30029324)
Where does someone put a coal fired power plant when it's at the end of its life?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by ummonk on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:49PM (#30029803)
Aren't coal power plants made from recyclable materials like metal and concrete rather than unrecyclable composite materials?
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by bigbillheck on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:16PM (#30029373)
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by hguant on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:13PM (#30029332)
I don't want to say so, but...so? At Intel scale, they're able to buy carbon offsets or - gasp! - install their own solar/wind in their properties. The municipal and state governments are I'm sure bending over backwards to get the plants and infrastructure investment, a permit to run whatever solar/wind/renewable they want is probably chump change for them.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by llbeansandrice on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:22PM (#30029462)
I'll eat a sock if they bother with solar in Ohio. I guess it's better than nothing but large parts of Ohio just don't get that much sun. Wind is much more likely.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by reportingsjr on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:33PM (#30030285)
Cincinnati (where I live) is about half a year away from completing the largest city financed solar array in the US [0,1]. Ohio gets plenty of sun, in fact it averages more sun than _anywhere_ in Germany which is known for it's solar [2,3].

In Ohio for residential, which is a good bit more expensive than commercial/utility scale solar, the payback period is about 12 years[4], well within the margin of getting your money back and then some.

0: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/mayor/news/cincinnati-to-const... 1: https://newmarketsolar.com/ 2: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/assets/images/solar-annual-ghi-2018... 3: https://solargis.com/file?url=download/Germany/Germany_PVOUT... 4: https://www.energysage.com/local-data/solar-panel-cost/oh/

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tick_tock_tick on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:27PM (#30030777)
> in Germany which is known for it's solar

Pretty sure Germany is more know for poor green energy planning, burning more coal, and instance on non optimal strategies for power generation (killing nuclear).

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Torifyme12 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:52PM (#30030992)
Also for managing to be so dependent on Russian gas it torpedoes a lot of measures to contain them
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by adamcstephens on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:07PM (#30030016)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amazon-behind-another-ohio...

I doubt socks are tasty, but please let us know.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by Melatonic on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:03PM (#30031098)
Germany has TONS of solar and I would bet Ohio gets more sun
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by onepointsixC on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:40PM (#30032742)
Well objectively yes Ohio gets more sun per m^2, but neither Germany nor Ohio are particularly good places to build solar[0]. They would be much better try something else like Nuclear or wind.

[0]: https://globalsolaratlas.info/map?c=20.797201,-46.494141,3&s...

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by nebula8804 on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:06PM (#30030003)
A smaller but still important metric....the possibility of turning it permanently blue? (one can hope)
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by gaoshan on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:50PM (#30030453)
The Columbus area is blue. Most of the biggest cities in Ohio are. It's the countryside and rural areas (Ohio has a lot of small towns) that are deep red.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by nebula8804 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:08PM (#30030592)
Yes but increased population will increase the number of blue which tilts the whole state in favor of blue. Yes, there will be shenanigans(voter intimation, making blue areas harder to vote) from the red side like we see in other currently purple states but those tactics become more ineffective the more blue voters you have so this can only be a net positive.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by taylortrusty on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:44PM (#30030397)
I suspect part of the appeal is it's not permanently blue.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by nebula8804 on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:11PM (#30030629)
People always complain about the downsides of all these blue areas but at the end of the day there is still a massive population that continue to live there. For example: Exodus from California is mainly limited to people making less than 100k a year. People making more than that actually increased their population in California. So this is mainly a rich vs poor issue. I'm excited at the prospect of transforming some of the rural states into a mindset of progressivism. It will help prevent some of the gridlock that is holding back the country from trying big bold ideas.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by tick_tock_tick on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:31PM (#30030810)
I mean it's pretty much known that rich people can avoid nearly any consequence intended or unintended of politicians......

It's why people view the ability to ignore politics as a privilege having the resources to just avoid whatever they happen to do gives you a massive degree of freedom.

Also aren't these progressive policies supposed to have helped people on the lower end of the economic scale rather then forced them out?

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by nebula8804 on Saturday January 22, 2022 @01:18PM (#30039306)
>I mean it's pretty much known that rich people can avoid nearly any consequence intended or unintended of politicians......

Its not a long term strategy when the majority suffer. Thats why the blue side have shifted towards pushing European style Democratic Socialism policies and the Red has shifted into authoritarian right style policies.

>Also aren't these progressive policies supposed to have helped people on the lower end of the economic scale rather then forced them out?

What progressive policies? There is no real progressive party in the US. California(and the rest of the states (save for a few districts here and there) has been extremely hostile to real progressives. What we have now on the "left" is a combination of neo-liberal right leaning centrists mixed in with fake leftist social populism.

Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by planetsprite on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:14PM (#30029350)
However it's misguided. Cost of labor is still 10x higher than a plant with the same productivity in a relatively poorer country. American manufacturing is mostly indirect social welfare now, it's not economically efficient.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by enkid on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:16PM (#30029379)
Is cost of labor really one of the major costs of a semiconductor plant? Plants in South Korea and Taiwan are economical and they have relatively high labor costs, so I'm not sure I buy this.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by vizzier on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:19PM (#30029416)
This was my thought as well, chip production has to be so necessarily automated to maintain a clean state that it feels like the cost of engineers to maintain systems is always going to be high, but also a small cost of the overall system. I'd love some real numbers.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by pm90 on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:56PM (#30032403)
The only reason it’s not in China is because they don’t have ready access to the technology that allows for this. All the “fabulous” chip makers in Asia are all US allies.
Re:Intel's $20B Ohio factory could become world's largest ch... by bendhoefs on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:24PM (#30029491)
It's not like semiconductor plants are using the cheapest possible labor they can get their hands on. I imagine there are very few people working in semiconductor plants that don't have post secondary education.