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Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by cs702 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:40AM (#37673774)
Sure, there are a few edge-case failures and mistakes here and there, but I can't help but be in awe. AWE.

Let me state the obvious: If the rate of improvement of these AI models continues at the current pace, these AI models will become a superior user interface to every single thing you want to do on your mobile phone, your tablet, your desktop PC, your car, your home, etc.

We live in interesting times.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by thelittleone on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:47AM (#37673837)
Agree and the next big step may well be human computer interface. Speech is starting point for input. At some point output will change also and if think it out longer term perhaps a future where instead of reading information we install knowledge, including the stored memory of actual experience. If I want to do pottery, I could think this, download the experience and then be competent at it.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by unsupp0rted on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:50AM (#37673866)
Even more impressive would be if I don't want to know pottery anymore, and I can delete that knowledge to make room for something else.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by BoxOfRain on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:28AM (#37675158)
The idea of giving the adtech industry direct access to my brain is genuinely horrifying, not to mention Aldous Huxley would have some reasonable objections to everything being this easy all of a sudden.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jprete on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:33PM (#37682337)
This would be nice if I didn't believe that it would be enshittified before it ever got off the ground. E.g.:

* There will be a monthly fee for the interface; you owe the monthly fee as long as you have it, so you need surgery to stop paying

* When you download knowledge, it's a rental, and in addition to per-hour rental fees and the network connection fee, you will owe 30% on the value of whatever you create

* The TOS will govern your behavior continuously, since you're always using the interface

* Your behavior will always be monitored because it's totally justified to spy on you all the time just because you borrowed pottery knowledge

* If you're found to be in violation of any part of the TOS at any time, they will erase all of the knowledge they've added to your brain, as well as any derived knowledge you gained through the use of their knowledge

* Because this product isn't actually considered essential, you will have no legal remedies if they turn it off, even if you are not actually in violation of the TOS

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by verve_rat on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:51AM (#37673877)
They will be the best input mode to play flight sims?

I am being a little facetious, but you made a bold claim.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by cs702 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:58AM (#37673974)
You're right, for actually playing the sim, you'll likely need a game controller or something like that. I edited my comment.

But keep in mind that during the sim, you'll be able to ask the computer what you want the plane to do, and the computer will magically make it happen on your display.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Miraste on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:32AM (#37675208)
No one would want that in a flight sim unless real planes start working that way, which we should all hope they don't.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jonplackett on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:57AM (#37673961)
I mean, autopilot is a thing. You would just instruct it what to do and it will make a flight plan and do it.

It’s gonna take the fun out of the experience a little bit though!

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bamboozled on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:52AM (#37676530)
Welcome to the future ?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by layer8 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:56AM (#37673940)
I don’t know, I hate the idea of having to hold a natural-language conversation with a computer in order to make use of its functionality.

It feels like being one of those Futurama heads in a jar that can’t do anything by themselves.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by morkalork on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:35AM (#37674450)
UIs being dumbed down for average users was already annoying. Apparently the process won't stop until the illiterate are included too.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sureglymop on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:48AM (#37676452)
But what is bad about that? Why shouldn't they be included?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by CamperBob2 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:18PM (#37679826)
It's a race to the bottom.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by at_a_remove on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:29PM (#37683560)
This agrees with my experience. When I have begun to automate complex manual systems (nibbling from each end, typically), I note when I watch people use the finished product (at each step) that they simply find some other facet of the job to pay less attention to. The eventual error rate just returns to what it was before.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by edgyquant on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:11PM (#37677803)
Ideally it won’t stop until computers are something we rarely think about. For me I love the CLI but having to use a mouse is a drag and causes serious wrist pain at this point in my life. Typing on a keyboard and clicking with a mouse are not the end all, be all of interacting with information systems.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by yamazakiwi on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:51PM (#37680293)
The illiterate are customers, of course they will be included.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by TOMDM on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:02AM (#37674798)
There's nothing stopping developers from taking a prompt to GPT and sticking it behind a button or command line, with options in the UI interpolated into the prompt.

For now almost all applications of ChatGPT happen in chat windows because it requires no further integration, but there's no reason to expect things will always be this way.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by boplicity on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:18AM (#37675031)
Visual input is not "natural language." The implications of that could, especially in the long-term, could be incredibly far-reaching, and possibly even terrifying.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by IKantRead on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:31AM (#37675203)
> I hate the idea of having to hold a natural-language conversation with a computer in order to make use of its functionality.

I hate the idea of having to use a mouse to click on a visual GUI to navigate a file system in order to make use of its functionality.

It's less the case today, even among developers, but it wasn't that long ago that I remember that any serious technical user of a computer took it as a point of pride to touch the mouse as little as possible. They're also still correct in that thinking. The command line is a very powerful UI with lots of benefits and while the mouse makes navigating the OS easier it's still much more limited than command line usage.

Touch screen interfaces are another example of an easier UI that ultimately feels even more limited. But people still plug their iPad pros in to magic keyboard folios frequently.

Having worked with these tools everyday for awhile now the "AI will change UX" is such a better take than "AI will conquer the world!". AI does fundamentally open up new work flows and user experiences, many of which do over a lot of potential improvements over their predecessors.

At the same time I doubt we'll see a world where we don't end up using the command line for the majority of serious technical work.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by troupo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:37PM (#37680106)
> Touch screen interfaces are another example of an easier UI that ultimately feels even more limited.

Depends o the use case. Touch screen is much more powerful than command line for maps, for example. Or for drawing. Mouse + keyboard is much more powerful than just keyboard for DAWs. And so on and so on.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jiggawatts on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:22PM (#37681499)
> I hate the idea of having to use a mouse to click on a visual GUI to navigate a file system in order to make use of its functionality.

Ironically, studies have shown that mouse-based interfaces are more efficient for practically all filesystem use-cases compared to CLI interfaces.

Despite objectively faster-time-to-solution, people self-report that they "feel" that the mouse GUIs are slower.

That's because there's fewer actions per second when using a mouse. It's a smooth gliding motion and then a single click, versus many keystrokes in a row with a CLI.

Rapid actions feel faster, even if it takes more wall-clock time to achieve a task.

Keep this in mind next time you sneer at a "bad graphic user interface" for being "slow".

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by not2b on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:55PM (#37683782)
Pratically all? I regularly need to select a subset of a very large number of files to do something with. Example: I have a directory, or possibly a tree, with thousands of photos. The photos have the date in ISO 9000 format embedded in their name. Your job is to find all the files from February 2021 and copy them to specified location, and there are 50 of them. Good luck using a visual GUI for that, unless it has the exact selection mechanism you need. Sure, mouse clicking is easier if you're selecting one file from a small set of files to open in a particular program. But I usually find myself frustrated when the only tool I have is a GUI.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Jakob on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:49PM (#37684197)
Personally, I would use the terminal, too for a throwaway use case like this. But GUIs are very good at that and faster when you do more than the naïve case, they also allow to see intermediate steps.

For your use case, on macOS open Automator.app and add three actions

  1. "ask for finder items" (the source folder)
  2. "filter finder items" (by name)
  3. "copy finder items" (to target folder)
This takes roughly 5 clicks, 10 seconds at most.

Repeatability and configurability is where the GUI action shines. With only one click more you can

- add filtering by size, opening date, modification date, etc. in addition or a combination thereof

- do the same action for multiple source folders and the same target folder

- choose whether you want to replace existing files

- add it as a folder action that runs automatically on modification of the source folder

Arguably much slower on the terminal.

Alternative on macOS, that works on all other major OS with similar shortcuts and a similar feature set, just not repeatable:

  1. Go to source folder (shift-cmd-G)
  2. Filter (cmd-shift-F)
  3. Copy (cmd-A, cmd-C)
  4. Go to target folder (shift-cmd-G)
  5. Paste (cmd-V)
This repeatability, configurability and automation is where GPT falls short, for now.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by JHonaker on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:57PM (#37692414)
I believe you, and I'm coming to this conclusion myself, after being a keyboard warrior for years.

Do you have any sources I can read though? I always find it fascinating when our perceptions are so off like this.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by thelastparadise on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:39PM (#37683073)
Right on, brother!

Plus I think there's a nuance to what you're saying:

UX is not just about making the best channel surfing interface, which is essentially what phones/tablets are. We need UIs that are capable of rich interaction and expression of ideas, creation, etc.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mnky9800n on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:04PM (#37679613)
Come on, you don't want an anxious, golden robot that mostly just causes drama but also happens to be fluent in over 6 million forms of communication so it can translate for you whenever you go on holiday?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by DelightOne on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:13PM (#37679750)
I wouldn't mind an UI fully configurable by AI to fit me exactly. Without having to learn obscure settings, some obscure declarative language or how the UI is implemented.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Nfthero on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:27PM (#37679962)
I got Tendonitis and very very curious how soon I can really start to do an interaction like in star trek.

Walking around and thinking out loud with the computer.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sexy_seedbox on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:15PM (#37683936)
Pretty sure somebody has made a Starfleet Badge before tied to Alexa or Google Home, just need to change it to ChatGPT and mentioning "computer" activates it.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jug on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:21AM (#37686415)
And for less perfect designs you’ll have ChatGPT rolling out voice chat on smartphones pretty much now to Plus subscribers.

And as for third party solutions, you have watchGPT for Apple Watch with voice commands and support for adding it as a watch complication.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by nonameiguess on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:56AM (#37673944)
I'm glad you made that change because the interface can't really solve every single thing. Most of what I do on my phone is read eBooks. AI can't inject the knowledge directly into my brain. Text on the screen is as good as it will get for the foreseeable future. Most of what I want to do in my home is cook, clean, sleep, and have sex with my wife. Software can't do any of those things for me. Most of what I want to do in a car is get where I'm going, which software control can arguably make somewhat easier, but the driving isn't really the pain point. The distance and traffic conditions are the pain points. AI can't change external reality, at least not yet.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:08AM (#37674115)
Also, keep in mind that Robots will be scifi level in 2 years. Like, able to cook and clean with hands.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dns_snek on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:22PM (#37678928)
I'm not sure if we watched the same video, but I saw a robot fumble though a few mechanical motions with dexterity and speed of a toddler to achieve a few isolated, best-case tasks where all the hard parts were taken care of by a human.

Cool demo, I suppose, but nobody is going to buy this as anything other than a toy.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:42PM (#37680167)
2 years. The point of the video is that robots are on the LLM train.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dinosaurdynasty on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:59PM (#37681216)
I'm hopeful that AI cars make renting one cheap enough that I can just rent an AI car the 0-2 times/week I need one instead of owning a car and all the time and stress on maintenance that entails.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:52PM (#37683756)
What kind of junkbox car do you own? I have got to believe this s a totally subjective thing. From my point of view, my cars are probably the least stress-inducing things I own. My computer certainly tops the list of things that cause me stress.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by RandomLensman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:57AM (#37673952)
Only for things where a high rate for sizeable errors (maybe >1% or >0.1%) is tolerable.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by satvikpendem on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:57AM (#37673953)
Unless there is a neural interface, keyboards, digital stylii, etc are still a superior UI to letting an AI guess at what you're thinking.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by ryandr on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:57AM (#37673959)
Things are changing quickly
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by hypertele-Xii on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:59AM (#37673978)
So you won't be able to do anything without Internet connection to the AI mainframe? No thanks.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by op00to on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:27AM (#37674356)
Until the AI mainframe runs on your $device
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by hypertele-Xii on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:11AM (#37674913)
GPT-3 requires 700 gigabytes of GPU RAM. I'm looking at my cheapest computer components retailer listing a 48 gigabyte GPU at $5k. So to run the previous generation of GPT would cost me about $70k right now. When do you think I can expect to run GPT-4 on my consumer $device? :)
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by M4v3R on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:21AM (#37675073)
Where did you get the 700 gigabytes figure from? I don't think OpenAI even released the model size, although it's considered to be 175B parameters. Given how well quantization works at these sizes you would need less than 200 GB of GPU memory to run it.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by apexalpha on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:17AM (#37674999)
You are now where the GUI was in in 1986 or so.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by chx on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:33AM (#37675245)
and you think corporate will wait near forty years for tech to catch up? no, they will, indeed force you to be always online, leading to absolute and total surveillance where you voluntarily add dozens of mics and cameras to every home. if you thought telescreens a'la 1984 is bad, just wait.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by astrange on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:12PM (#37681391)
It's funny that being obsessed with "corporations" feels so specifically GenX. I think because it's part of the New Left movement. In reality governments have all the power here, which is why this would be illegal in at least CA/EU/China.

Another issue where this comes up is high housing costs, which are mostly caused by bad land use laws (and the nearest evil people, landlords, mostly own one or two properties), but people from the New Left era will literally refuse to believe you about this because they can't accept that any bad thing on Earth could not be caused by "corporations".

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by qingcharles on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:06AM (#37675711)
That doesn't seem to make sense. I can run Llama 2 on my 12-year-old desktop PC with no compatible GPU and only 16GB of system RAM. It ain't quick, but it runs.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by arrowsmith on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:48PM (#37680250)
Maybe 700GB is what ChatGPT uses to serve zillions of users concurrently. If you're running your own individual instance, you obviously don't need as many resources.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sandbags on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:18PM (#37676945)
I would be surprised if GPT-3 uses 700GB of RAM. It may be true, I don't know. But I am running 70B parameter models (quantized to 5 or 6 bits, biggest is 48GB loaded) on my 64GB Mac M2 Max Studio now and they are usable and the machine is still usable too. With an M2 Ultra and 192GB of RAM I imagine you could do a lot more.

I'm not arguing that these models hold up against GPT 3.5 and I still use GPT 4 when it matters. But they work and it's more like the difference between Premier League & Division 1, rather than PL & a five-a-side team from Bracknell.

Even a few years ago I could not have imagined this.

Given the pace of work on optimisation and my assumption that the M3 Studio I buy next will probably have 256GB of RAM at much the same power levels as I use now, it seems eminently possible it's a year or two away.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dmazzoni on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:51PM (#37680288)
First of all, you're off by an order of magnitude.

Second, I don't think it will be that long. There are already LLMs as good as GPT-3 running on average laptops and even phones.

In the next couple of years, you'll see:

- Ordinary PCs, tablets, and phones with dedicated AI chips, like TPUs - they'll be more tuned specifically for LLMs

- Mathematical and algorithmic optimizations will make existing LLMs faster on the same hardware

- Newer generations of LLMs will get even more useful with fewer parameters

The combination of all of these means that it's not at all unreasonable to expect that today's top-of-the-line LLM will be running locally on your device within just a couple of years.

Of course, LLMs in the cloud will advance even further, so there will always be a tradeoff, and there will always be demand for cloud AI, depending on the application.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by fomine3 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:48PM (#37684184)
I don't know. RAM is $$ and currently usable LLMs needs huge RAM with higher bandwidth. I don't see any story that it will be solved with future AI chips. Do you know anything?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by danenania on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:19PM (#37680687)
By the time the current AI mainframe runs on your device, there will be new, better models that still require the mainframe.

I think AI fundamentally favors centralization. Except for narrow tasks and domains, there's no such thing as "enough" intelligence. For general purpose AI, you'll always want the best and most intelligent model available, which means cloud rather than local.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by postalrat on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:04AM (#37674050)
Only the stuff you don't know how to do yourself.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by HappySweeney on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:09AM (#37674134)
... like operate my phone without a UI?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by 3abiton on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:14PM (#37680623)
At some point Open-source models' performance will follow. Llava will improve.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bmicraft on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:56PM (#37685071)
The vram and processing power in my phone will never follow what is available when not limited by the constraints of a phone
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by naveen99 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:03AM (#37674041)
Generally agree.

Just to play devils advocate:

If you want something done right, sometimes you have to do it yourself. Employees are sort of a universal UI. But you will always know more about what you want done than your agent, whether it’s human or computer. That’s even before considering the principal agent problem.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Closi on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:43AM (#37674558)
Just to play double-devils advocate:

If you want something done right, other times you will have to get someone else to do it. You know what you want, but you might not have the skills to do it. I can't represent myself well in court, do a good job of plumbing or cut my own hair, so I would ask for experts to do that for me.

Plus if someone is capable, it's often quicker to delegate than do, and if you are delegating to someone with more time to do the task they can often do a better job. Delegating unambiguously is a skill in itself, as instructing AIs will be.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dmazzoni on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:45PM (#37680214)
ALso, AIs will get much better at delegating.

Currently ChatGPT doesn't know it's bad at math, so it can convert a story problem into an equation better than a human but then mess up the arithmetic or forget a step in the straightforward part.

But if you specifically give ChatGPT access to Mathematica and an appropriate prompt, it can leverage a good math engine to get the right answer nearly every time.

Before long, I don't think that extra step will be necessary. It will know its limits and have dozens of other services that it can delegate to.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mbil on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:33AM (#37674438)
I agree. I think apps that would initially benefit from LLM-powered conversational interfaces are those that have the following traits:

  - constrained context
  - part of a hands-free workflow
A couple use-cases I have been pondering are driving assistant and cooking assistant.

People are already used to using their phone or car's nav system to give them directions to an unfamiliar place. But even with such a system it's useful to have a human navigator in the car with you to answer various questions:

  - What's my next turn again?
  - How long till we get there?
  - Are there any rest stops near here?
  - What was that restaurant we just passed?
  - Is there another route with less traffic?
These questions are all answerable with context that can be provided by the mapping app:

  - List of upcoming directions
  - Overall route planning
  - Surrounding place data
  - Traffic data and alternate route information
It's possible to pull over to the side of the road, take off your distance glasses, put on your reading glasses, and zoom/pan the map to try to answer these questions yourself. But if the map application can just expose its API to the language interface layer, then a user can get the answers without taking their eyes off the road.

The information is contextual and constrained based on a current task. In some cases it might be more desirable to whip out your phone and interact with the map to look up the answers on a screen, but often it won't be worth stopping the car, and so the conversational interface is better.

Cooking assistant is a similar case: you are busy stirring something and checking on the oven -- you don't want to wipe the flour off your hands to pick up your phone and ask how many teaspoons of sugar you need. Again: contextual and constrained info based on a current task, and your hands and eyes -- the instruments of traditional UIs -- are otherwise occupied.

Today, our software interfaces generally have one of two kinds of entity on the other end: humans, or other software. In the near future there will be another type of entity: language models. We need to start thinking of how our APIs will change when they're interacting with an LLM -- e.g. they'll need to be discoverable and self-describing; error states will need to be standardized or explicit with instructions on how to correct; they'll need to be fast enough to fit in a conversational interface; etc. It's arguable that such traits are part of good API design today, but in the future they may be required for the API to function in a landscape of virtual agents.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by RandomLensman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:04AM (#37674828)
In the cooking example, you either need the AI to have full awareness of the step you are at or you need to describe the step you are at, which could be cumbersome ("I did ..., how much sugar do I need now"). I venture, having the recipe projected in front of you would be much faster.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by travoc on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:40AM (#37675335)
and a piece of paper wins again.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mbil on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:26PM (#37678009)
I imagined the AI would be reading the steps aloud to you, and so would be aware of your progress. I don’t think an AI assistant precludes the recipe being projected tho, just as in the driving example it wouldn’t replace an on screen map.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by troupo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:39PM (#37680131)
Having it both in front of my eyes, and being able to get answers to questions like "I've added the eggs, now what?" or "what does folding a dough mean?" at the same time would be very valuable.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by apexalpha on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:15AM (#37674979)
Correct, this will be the successor to the GUI.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by tmalsburg2 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:30PM (#37679996)
I doubt it. It’s too damn costly computationally.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Difwif on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:49PM (#37681112)
This is the same reply to GUIs will never take off but decades later and on to the next successor.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by m3kw9 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:15AM (#37674987)
Gpt4 was awesome, this looks like it does not disappoint based on the progress we expect of OpenAI.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sottol on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:39AM (#37675314)
Everyone is going to wfh then or employers are going to splurge on a private office for everyone? Or is work basically going to be like a call center when everyone RTOs?

How does this work on public transit?

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by crazygringo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:40AM (#37675324)
> they will become a superior user interface to almost every thing you want to do

No they won't. They're actually a pretty terrible user interface from a design perspective.

Primarily because they provide zero affordances, but also because of speed.

UX is about providing an intuitive understanding of available capabilities at a glance, and allowing you to do things with a single tap that then reflect the new state back to you (confirming the option was selected, confirming the process is now starting).

Where AI is absolutely going to shine is as a helpful assistant in learning/using those interfaces, much as people currently go to Google to ask, "how do I do a hanging indent in Microsoft Word for my Works Cited page"? For one-off things you do infrequently, that's a godsend, don't get me wrong. But it's not going to replace UI, it's going to assist.

And the 99% of your tasks that are repetitive habit will continue to be through traditional UI, because it's so much more efficient. (Not to mention that most of the time you're not in an environment where it's polite or possible to be speaking at all.)

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bratbag on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:18PM (#37676949)
If something is a repetitive habit that you can do almost without thinking, there is a good chance an AI could infer that entire chain.

I think what's more likely is that an AI based interface will end up being superior after it has had a chance to observe your personal preferences and approach on a conventional UI.

So both will still be needed, with an AI helping at the low end and high end of experience and the middle being a training zone as it learns you.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by crazygringo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:17PM (#37677900)
I think I wasn't clear enough -- these habits I'm talking about are things like "press cold water button, press start" or "press warm water button, press start" or "tap 'News' app grouping, tap 'NY Times' icon".

There's nothing to infer. The sequence is already short. There are no benefits from AI here.

But you raise a good point, which is that there are occasionally things like 15-step processes that people repeat a bunch of times, that the AI can observe and then take over. So basically useful in programming macros/shortcuts as well. But that still requires the original UI -- it doesn't replace it.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:29PM (#37679990)
I don't know - the timer app on my oven is trivial too. But I always, always use Alexa to start timers. My hands are busy, so I can just ask "How many minutes left on the tea timer?"

Voice is not really clumsy, compared to finding a device, browsing to an app, remembering the interface etc.

Already when we meet a new app, we (I) often ask someone to show me around or tell me where the feature is that I want. Not any easier than asking my house AI. Harder really.

Hard to underestimate the laziness of humans. I'll get very accustomed to asking my AI to do ordinary things. Already I never poke at the search menu in my TV; I ask Alexa to search for me. So, so much easier. Always available. Never have to spell anything.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by crazygringo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:51PM (#37680290)
I think we're basically in agreement though.

Everyone agrees setting timers in the kitchen via voice is great precisely because your hands are occupied. It's a special case. (And often used as the example of the only thing people end up consistently using their voice assistant for.)

And asking an AI where a feature is in an app -- that's exactly what I was describing. The app still has its UX though. But this is exactly the learning assistance I was describing.

And as for searching with Alexa, of course -- but that's just voice dictation instead of typing. Nothing to do with LLM's or interfaces.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:25PM (#37681555)
Alexa's search is a little different - it's context-independent. I can ask for a search from any point in the TV app - in some other menu, while watching another show, heck even when the TV is turned off.

And when describing apps - I imagine the AI is an app-free environment, where I just ask those questions of my AI assistant, in lieu of poking at an app at all.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Workaccount2 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:18PM (#37680670)
I totally get your point, but I think that AI will allow much "smarter" behavior. Where every appliance is an expert in doing what it is intended to do.

So sure, it will still have buttons, but those buttons are really just preset AI prompts on the backend. You can also just talk to your appliance and nuance your request however you want to.

A TV with a remote whose channel button just prompts "Next channel" but if you want you would just talk to your TV and say "Skip 10 channels" or "make the channel button do (arbitrary behavior)"

The shortcuts will definitely stay, but they will behave closer to "ring bell for service" than "press selection to vend".

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by nuancebydefault on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:38PM (#37680964)
Most user interfaces already have a much finer granularity and number of options than your examples.

When taking a shower, I would like fine control over the water temperature, preferably with a feedback loop regulating the temperature. (Preferably also the regulation changes over the duration of the showering.)

Choosing to read the NY times indeed is only a few taps away, but navigating through and within its list of articles is nowadays done quite fast and intuitively thanks to quite a lot of UI advancements.

My point being, short sequences are a very limited set within a vast UI space.

People go for convenience and speed, oftentimes even if there's some accuracy cost. AI fulfills this preference, especially because it can learn on the go.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sarchertech on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:12PM (#37682760)
> When taking a shower, I would like fine control over the water temperature, preferably with a feedback loop regulating the temperature. (Preferably also the regulation changes over the duration of the showering.)

That exists, but it’s expensive because of the electronics and mechanics involved. There are so many interfaces with this exact problem.

You also almost certainly don’t want non-deterministic hallucination prone AI controlling physical systems.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bodhi_mind on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:54PM (#37683774)
Maybe I misunderstood the op, but isn’t the mechanical faucet and our body’s temperature receptors this “fine control with feedback loop”?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by nuancebydefault on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:43PM (#37693849)
Indeed, and to take the UI a step further, humans often prefer automation, if it works reliable. A complicated UI would become simple, just step into the shower.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sarchertech on Friday September 29, 2023 @01:30AM (#37699630)
There’s no complicated UI. You just turn a knob that sets a digital temperature readout.

If you want the shower to save your temperature preferences and start automatically, there’s no reason to build in a computer capable of running an AI.

But in reality you almost certainly don’t want a system like this because you don’t want an AI accidentally turning on your shower when you’re not home, when you do ok to clean it, or grab a razor, or when your toddler wanders in.

Granted an AI could try to determine intent, but it’s never going to get it 100% right. Which is why for physical systems like this you almost always want a physical button to signal intent.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mycall on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:39PM (#37684940)
Prompt engineering and using multiple AI models in parallel might find ways to cancel out most hallucinations similar to how consensus-based replication works.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sarchertech on Thursday September 28, 2023 @09:06AM (#37689082)
It might. If hallucinations are truly random and not correlated to anything shared between models. For example, something inherent to the data they are trained on. Given how locked down I think potential training data is going to become, and the amount of data required, I think that sharing data between models is almost guaranteed.

Also that sounds like an awful lot of computing power for everyday UIs. It also doesn’t solve the non determinism problem.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by nuancebydefault on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:38PM (#37693792)
It would become less expensive, using less sensors and actuators, when using the predictive and learning abilities of an ai. You can, for safety reasons, keep a mechanical temperature limiter in the loop.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sarchertech on Friday September 29, 2023 @01:22AM (#37699585)
My background is in embedded systems. There is absolutely no way that an AI could make a temperature controlled shower cheaper.

There’s no way to use fewer actuators, and the control system is already dead simple, and uses one temperature sensor per outlet.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by nuancebydefault on Friday September 29, 2023 @02:51PM (#37708612)
Temperature can be measured in different ways. IR radiation and sound can be measured from a distance. The relationship between temperature at the source, of the water exiting the showerhead and time can be learned. Water can be heated in different ways. The valve could also be a pump. Our reaction to the temperature of the water can be sensed.

Who knows, AI can come up with simpler or cheaper solutions that did not cross our mind. I would say, time will tell.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sarchertech on Friday September 29, 2023 @06:53PM (#37711041)
AI might also invent sonic showers, or teleportation to beam the dirt away.

The lack of AI isn’t what’s holding back your dream of a temperature controlled shower in every house.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by birdyrooster on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:00PM (#37680437)
Like on Apple Watch Ultra, when I press the start exercise button, the exercises that it suggests are in an order unique to my baseline activities.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jncfhnb on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:55PM (#37679482)
Not… “write my works cited page… use hanging indents”?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by cs702 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:33PM (#37682346)
Don't think it of it as the machine performing repetitive tasks you specify. Think of it instead as the machine accomplishing goals you specify, by figuring out the tasks necessary for accomplishing them.

For example, instead of telling the machine something like, say, "increase the left margin by a quarter inch," you'd say something like "I want to create a brochure for this new product idea I just had, and I want the brochure to evoke the difficult-to-describe feeling of a beautiful sunshine. Create 10 brochures like that so I can review them."

This presumes, of course, that the technology continues to improve at the same pace. No one knows if that will happen.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by wilg on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:18PM (#37683478)
There’s no reason chatbots have to be the interface to an LLM. Imagine dynamically generated interfaces redesigning themselves to your needs as you work through a task.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by artursapek on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:37PM (#37683635)
Exactly. Chat is just the first, most general purpose UI. Like a terminal was for computers.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by theK on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:47PM (#37683712)
Agreed but lets keep in mind that graphical UIs involve significantly more effort than CLIs. In the case where you shoerhorn an ai to be your primary UI I would bet this is as hard if not harder since you typically have to code around significant limitations of current llms
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by fragmede on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:41PM (#37684961)
http://gitwit.dev shows us that LLMs can generate various GUIs just fine, when prompted.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by theK on Friday September 29, 2023 @02:09AM (#37699864)
This is not what I said. Sure you can use such tools or even just classical boilerplate scripts (like we used for a decade now) to get started with react fast. But building out a system that fails well when the underlying llm starts behaving erratically or not at all is a completely different league of engineering as executing a boilerplate script.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by fragmede on Friday September 29, 2023 @04:15AM (#37700754)
Sorry for misinterpreting you. So the underlying LLM starts misbehaving, and the difficulty you see, is that the system as a whole should fail gracefully. What would that look like, in your eyes? A proctor LLM/whatever that observes the output and decides that it has gone awry and decides to take over?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:54PM (#37684228)
So to your point, I do think it would be nice to have an AI assistant suggest to make changes to the view mode of an application. For instance, if I navigate to a certain area the AI might suggest that I make that option visible in my menu. I might say no, because I prefer to use the hotkey. Aside from that, I'm going to have to absolutely side with the parent commenter on this one - When I'm doing serious work I want a familiar interface that I know how to move around efficiently in. I don't want any surprises.

Suggestions to improve workflow sound great. But nullifying hard earned knowledge of an interface... I can't see that helping me.

The shining example in my mind is audio/video/graphics applications, where there are good reasons to routinely switch between different views. Knowing your way around those views (which might be custom, but still static), and being able to navigate through them quickly is very valuable.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by wilg on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:11PM (#37684737)
I think there’s room for an AI-native interface that knows the full context of the project you’re working on and can make extremely intelligent suggestions or tailor the interface for a specific task. Or you could just literally describe the interface you want for something and it redesigns it for you immediately.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:59PM (#37685089)
There is room, absolutely. Perhaps I took too hard of a line. I do recognize that a compromise can be made between a user retaining their knowledge of a system, and that system evolving to accommodate user requirements. It's easy to be fearful of the rug being pulled right from under you, but I suppose the reality might be closer to earnestly asking to place things upon the rug. In other words, the things that are familiar will probably remain familiar and accessible, but AI will help us arrange them in a way that optimizes our workflow.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by JHonaker on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:55PM (#37692376)
I would hate that. An interface is useful when you can anticipate and remember what things are available and where they are. It doesn't matter if it's a visual UI or keyboard shortcuts. If you start moving stuff around on us, we revolt. (See every UI update on an MS Office product ever.)
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by wilg on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:08PM (#37694179)
Well you have to make it useful obviously. Keep an open mind!
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by freilanzer on Friday September 29, 2023 @03:41AM (#37700486)
So, an interface that keeps changing randomly? That sounds like hell, no thanks.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Veedrac on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:18PM (#37683955)
As we all know, the one human skill computers can never replace is doing repetitive tasks quickly.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by thebruce87m on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:45PM (#37684992)
This is the Dropbox comment of our time.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by have_faith on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:41AM (#37675349)
I personally can't wait for brands to start specifically advertising "doesn't use AI" as a selling point because everyone got burned by their AI controlled toaster, literally and figuratively. For anything designated an "appliance" I want it to be fixable by someone locally, or it's just throwing money away.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by elforce002 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:05AM (#37675690)
"AI" will create a new business model for sure: "Talk to a real person", "100% human made", etc. This would be the new counter-culture.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by vsareto on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:23AM (#37676015)
That's a new flavor of customer service jobs which will still suck and be paid terribly
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by elforce002 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:15PM (#37679774)
At least you'll be able to complain to someone, hehe.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by yamazakiwi on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:52PM (#37680304)
Unless that person is you... but in that case you would just complain to your coworkers so nothing really changes I guess
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by huytersd on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:24PM (#37682233)
That’s the current culture. How many times have you heard “I want to speak with a real person” or “artisanal hand made”.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by ctoth on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:28AM (#37676091)
> For anything designated an "appliance" I want it to be fixable by someone locally, or it's just throwing money away.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or AI for that matter? I agree we should have repairable appliances. I also want better AI.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by kaibee on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:46AM (#37675416)
> For anything designated an "appliance" I want it to be fixable by someone locally

This is already pretty much gone thanks to manufacturers making it extremely difficult to fix things. No AI required.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by 303uru on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:10AM (#37675776)
It's not gone, but is much more expensive up front. For example, everyone I know has a range or stovetop/oven with a circuit board or two in it, few if any replaceable parts, etc... That's basically the standard if you're in the 30" range that costs $1-2k market. Meanwhile, my 60" Bluestar has no circuit board, it has four mechanical electronic switches for the oven lights and convection. Everything else is brass valves, standard easily replaceable parts and so on. A few weeks back a convection fan went out and I replaced it in 5 minutes with a screwdriver. But, this range starts at $18k.

So yes, I see a market for bespoke non-AI.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by OnlyMortal on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:28PM (#37678052)
Here’s where a toaster will be in the near future.

https://youtu.be/7folKbch3U8

Do we want this?

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by renewiltord on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:51PM (#37679428)
I'm sure that in 2045, the Hacker News of its time will be complaining about lack of AI-less devices the way it complains about lack of smart-less TVs. It'll be available, it'll be more expensive, and the people who claim they want it don't want it enough to pay the premium.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Nfthero on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:30PM (#37680007)
I'm curious if we will reach a situation were the steam punk idea becomes reality:

People plugging weird stuff together like a ai chip from a car into a toaster.

If ai becomes hardware chips it could easily be that language processing will be a chip default feature and the rest is teachable like plugin ai chip level 3 into it, boot it and teach it that it's now a toaster.

But at the end we will have the same toaster in 30 years as we have had for the last 30 years.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by PeterStuer on Friday September 29, 2023 @02:27AM (#37699981)
I'd rather pay for 'does not collect and sell your data. Does not play advertisements, is not remotely operable or accesible by anyone but the owner'

Sadly the market goes 100% full steam in the opposite direction.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bulbosaur123 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:02AM (#37675654)
> We live in interesting times.

We live in end of times.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bamboozled on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:31AM (#37676145)
Ever wanted to see a photo or video or something before you purchased it ?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by throw1234651234 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:14PM (#37677856)
Zero awe. This week so far it can't find an import of a type in Next.js and it can't get the user object from a session. Next.js is one of the most popular FE frameworks in the world. It lied about both, repeatedly giving wrong answers.

Here is my previous experience https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34648167 with it not being able to do basic tasks.

It's all fun and games until the mistakes start having a cost.

Other examples: I resorted to using it to order lists for me or adding quotes and commas to them for SQL inserts and such. Nope - when I look at the row count, it somehow drops values at random.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by gwd on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:46PM (#37681079)
Just to clarify, you're using GPT-4? Or GPT-3.5 (the free ChatGPT one)?

My experience with GPT-4 has been completely different from what you describe. Example:

https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2567734

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jiggawatts on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:26PM (#37681570)
He's using Copilot, which is based on GPT 3.0, making it ridiculously outdated.

Generally feedback along these lines doesn't work.

People who are worried about their job security will cling to the worst AI output quality they can find like a life-preserver, and simply will not listen to advice like yours.

Nobody goes the extra mile to embrace an existential threat.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by atleastoptimal on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:56PM (#37683786)
It's sad. People's entire sense of worth is attached to their jobs. They will lie to themselves and others about the ineffectiveness of AI to feel better. Even if it trips up on some minor thing there's no reason that progress will just stop and that the SOTA version 2-3 years from now won't be leagues better. Compare what we have now to 2-3 years ago, and now the investment solely in training, ignoring the algorithmic and architectural advances, is 10x greater.

There really is no going back.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sir_brickalot on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:07PM (#37678679)
If AI or LLMs or similar would be everywhere... how much more renewable energy do we have to produce, for very little to no gain in so many cases?

Madness!

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by Nfthero on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:24PM (#37679914)
Absolutely!

Never seen something like this and the new results from openai tells us again that we are not close to any reasonable plateau.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mediaman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:36PM (#37680091)
Roughly half of people in most developed countries are not functionally articulate: meaning, they can read functionally, but struggle to articulate what they want with the written word.

LLM-based chatbots can be extremely attractive to the top 30% literacy users in the developed world. They are not a good universal UI. You still need to provide pathways for the user to follow to get done what they need without forcing them to articulate their requirement.

This is why so many people sit in front of a ChatGPT-like service and say, "what would I use this for?" and never use it again.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by brrrrrm on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:41PM (#37680156)
Audio to text solves written word articulation, right? Besides this post is about vision, which also solves it.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by RealityVoid on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:34PM (#37680893)
No, it does not. It's still the same words, in a different medium. If you are unable to write, you'll probably be unable to speak your ideas.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by furyofantares on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:10PM (#37681369)
That sounds super false to me, at least given how articulate kids can be before they can read, and how literate they can be before they can write.

If it's really true that half of the population can't functionally express themselves verbally then I'd sure like to know that. Or maybe I've misinterpreted something claimed here, because I'm struggling to find these claims plausible.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by RealityVoid on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:55PM (#37693996)
I mean to say that if you can write and are unable to express your ideas, you probably won't be able to do so verbally either.

In the case of kids, of course, that's true, but just because they can't write.

But if you can (and most people can) just having the option of voice input won't help.

I refrain to take a stance about how much of the population is unable to articulate thoughts in writing, (it's probably not great though) but it's probably going to be comparable with how many can't express themselves verbally as well.

I'm talking here about more complex ideas of course. I'm sure average communication is functional.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by a2dam on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:13PM (#37681413)
This isn't true. There's plenty of people who are verbally fine but can't read or write. Spoken language is a far more common and fundamental skill than reading or writing.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by thelastparadise on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:36PM (#37683033)
Plus the LLM could adapt its language and dialect to say Appalachia or Compton, etc.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:40PM (#37683661)
Ha. Can you imagine an AI speaking in colloquial Black American or Appalachian dialect? People's minds would short circuit, not knowing whether to be offended or approving.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by RealityVoid on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:53PM (#37693972)
I am surprised about the amount of resistance this is getting. Yes, some people talk more than they write. Yes, some people can't write but they can talk. But, that's just the environment the words travel through. The words themselves, they will be the same. I conceptualize expressing in writing as more lenient than communicating verbally. Verbal communication leaves much less time to ponder your ideas and pick your words carefully, thus, it's harder. I maintain my stance, if you can put words to paper (and the vast majority of people in the first world can do that) but are unable to communicate your ideas this way, you probably will fail doing so verbally as well.

If my supposition (Speculation? Stronger than it should assertion?) Is true then just interpreting requests verbally will not help

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jurimasa on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:24PM (#37682242)
...do you know that illiterate people exist, right? Do you understand that people were illiterate for thousands of years and still managed to speak their ideas, right?

Right?

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by vunderba on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:57PM (#37683271)
Yup, poster seems to be completely ignorant of pre-written word civilizations which used oral means to transfer knowledge through successive generations for millennia.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by sweezyjeezy on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:39PM (#37680976)
Does vision solve it? How does one ask a question through images alone?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by burkaman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:29PM (#37681599)
> Roughly half of people in most developed countries are not functionally articulate

Where did you get this idea? I found this article (https://www.uxtigers.com/post/ai-articulation-barrier, is this you?), but it makes a leap from literacy to articulacy that I don't understand. It's not obvious to me why an illiterate person would be "functionally inarticulate" assuming they can speak instead of write.

Also, I'm not certain but I think the author is underestimating the abilities of a person with Level 2 literacy. It doesn't seem correct to say that "level 3 is the first level to represent the ability to truly read and work with text", especially when the whole point of LLMs is that you don't have to read a long static document and understand it, you can have a conversation and ask for something to be rephrased or ask followup questions.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by mediaman on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:59PM (#37683290)
No, I'm not Jakob Nielsen.

I do however run a company that employs lots of blue collar, non-college-educated people, in manufacturing. And although this is in no way scientific, my experience matches this: most people are much more uncomfortable writing than they are reading. Even with reading, most strongly resist reading documentation unless they have to, and prefer trial and erroring their own gut instinct until they happen to find something that works or they give up. (This is less true of the most highly skilled technicians, such as those who troubleshoot robots and low voltage control systems.) The official statistics on literacy are absolutely not a good indicator of how comfortable people are articulating themselves with the written word, much less reading.

This is generally met with disbelief by most people in tech I talk with about this, because for the most part they have nearly zero interaction with this large portion of the population. From their daily experience, 98%+ people can make effective use of these tools.

But almost nobody in this partially literate population wants to write in an empty text box to ask an AI to do things. They can learn to visually navigate a simple UI, especially if it's well-designed, because they can effectively make decisions about what of several paths to take.

Some others here have brought up voice, and I do agree that voice is a more promising avenue, although I think it'll still take carefully constructed conversational experiences to work well (i.e., free form 'tell it what you want' will still not work).

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by bytefactory on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:20PM (#37680695)
I share your awe. I feel like a kid in a candy store with all these incredible AI breakthroughs coming out these days! There's a place for cynicism and pessimism, but the kid in me who loves technology for its own sake is just absolutely on cloud 9.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by p1esk on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:00PM (#37681966)
If the rate of improvement continues at the current pace - which is GPT 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 in the last five years - we are just one or two improvements away from a full blown AGI/superintelligence/singularity/etc. At that point, a superior user interface is probably the least interesting (or scary) thing that would happen.

I personally doubt GPT-5 will be as much of an improvement over GPT-4 as GPT-4 was over GPT-3, but that's fine, I can wait until GPT-6 or 7.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by DrJaws on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:13PM (#37682130)
chat-gpt at the end is a language model, not an real AI, it have limits and are huge
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by p1esk on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:34PM (#37682356)
real AI

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by blovescoffee on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:32PM (#37682987)
What do you even mean by real AI? Some of the top AI researchers in the world work on chat gpt
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by moffkalast on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:18PM (#37682168)
It does make one wonder how it'll all play out in the coming decades. One way or another humans will eventually be unemployable for most of currently existing jobs.

Throughout history, the ruling elite had always relied on the rest of the population to make their food, do their work, and fight in their wars. This is the first time ever that they will no longer have any need for anyone else. Maybe climate change will conveniently do the culling for them...

Of course there's always that option that we end up in a post scarcity space utopia where machine produced wealth is distributed to all, but only deluded idealists can possibly still think that'll ever be a real option as we slink further into techno feudalism with every passing day.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by p1esk on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:33PM (#37682339)
With full automation, and using renewable energy, it will be very cheap to feed and house the peasants. I'm guessing it will become mainly about entertaining, so most will move into VR worlds, first through headsets, then BCI, and eventually uploading.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by moffkalast on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:53PM (#37682551)
Ah yes the Ready Player One option. I suppose it's not entirely unlikely, part of the fun of being in charge is being able to boss around the peasants after all.

I doubt BCI will ever make sense, on a conceptual level it's still just copying and killing your biological self. AGI will likely solve aging way before that becomes viable.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by jes5199 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:19PM (#37684789)
I think you’re assuming a lot about the nature of intelligence. GPT is growing fast, but we have no real idea how big/deep the gap is between it and the human mind
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by chx on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:55PM (#37682590)
> few edge-case failures and mistakes

Like identifying traffic lights in 4th and 5th squares in the second and third row both when there are only four squares?

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:48PM (#37683726)
I often fail at those too. If a square contains a small corner of a thing, but is mostly not the thing, do I check it or not?
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by chx on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:23PM (#37683990)
read the problem again please. it's not that it misidentified what's in the squares, it "miscounted" the number of squares -- because it doesn't count, it's just a plausible sentence generator.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:31PM (#37684487)
Proving that CAPTCHAs are a poor test for "are you human" as we both failed.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by chx on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:34AM (#37688720)
my point still has nothing to do with captchas...
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by starfallg on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:47PM (#37684174)
Would you rather do something yourself with an accessible user interface or API, or open a ticket to ask somebody to do it for you?

Sometimes communicating with an intelligent agent is harder than doing things yourself with a good structured user interface where you can communicate your intent clearly.

Until we have mind reading AI that is.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by giancarlostoro on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:09PM (#37684331)
I think at this point the cost factor needs to be near zero for this to explode the way we want. People think I'm "moving the goal post" when I say you literally will see it explode once it all runs off a cell phone, offline, without internet. Because nobody will want to pay money to use an AI UI when the non-AI UI was free.
Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by phs318u on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:25AM (#37685228)
I am currently working in the higher education space and previously in banking. I agree with you. We are already workshopping where it makes sense to provide this type of interface on top of headless core systems. In the examples we've considered, this will drive a reduction in head count in some areas.

I'd also suggest that one of the early "killer apps" for this may be as an "IVR co-pilot" for actual humans on the phone with customers for their tricky issues.

Re:First Impressions with GPT-4V(ision) by cambaceres on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:11AM (#37686353)
I read this comment in the worst of moments, because I am a frontend freelancer that all of a sudden can't find a gig plus I just bought an expensive flat for my family of three kids.

Can someone please relieve my anxiety?