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Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by wnissen on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:23PM (#24862280)
Just a note, the machines are not broken, they have shut themselves down for sanitary reasons. Ice cream, as a food that is very close to neutral in pH and without much in the way of preservatives, is a common source of listeria bacteria. To prevent serious health issues, the machine must be sanitized regularly. As I understand it, the process is involved, and any given McDonalds may not have a person with the time and skills to complete it. So the machine shuts itself down rather than produce an unsafe product. This is translated to "broken" when you order ice cream.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:43PM (#24862515)
Here's some detail, as someone that has worked with those machines before (internally and externally).

In the good old days the soft serve and shake machines were taken apart every night and every piece was washed and bleach-sanitized by hand. Then it was reassembled in the morning. This would leave a lot of room for error and possible contamination in the process. And the sight of a shake machine hitting full pressure with a misaligned O-ring in the barrel is a lovely one indeed.

So the newer machines take a different route: they self-pasturize. The machine goes out of service and slowly heats everything up to a bacteria-killing temperature (including the dairy mix inside), then cools everything back down to freezing temperature to serve.

This process takes about four to five hours. But if you set the clock wrong, the machine will go into its cycle at some super-inconvenient time. There are other triggers that can force a self-clean but in general it's not "broken", it's just doing this process at a bad time for you.

I'm curious how this data is being sourced. The last I checked there was an effort to put cloud-based telemetry into every unit and have them report home constantly (both to the equipment maker and to McD), but that was never intended to be public data.

EDIT: Ah, I didn't RTFT. He's using the public ordering site to scrape it (and now the title has changed). But that does mean there's some working connection from the equipment to the McCloud now. That's cool. Or maybe a manager is doing it by hand.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by imwillofficial on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:58PM (#24865622)
I actually froze my hand inside an ice cream machine like this when I was a teenager working fast food. I hit a standby button instead of the off switch. (I was too tall to see the off switch and was never trained.) I spent two weeks in a burn unit while they healed my hand with magic synthetic sin grafts. Today you can’t even tell which hand got frozen in there.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by pathseeker on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:11AM (#24865972)
Woah, how cold are these things that you would need skin grafts like that?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by HenryBemis on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:39AM (#24867233)
Back in the day I worked in a dairy company as an IT guy. When the RFID antennas would need a reboot I had to go to the deep freeze storage (-40 Celsius), walk in with a ladder, climb the ladder, switch off and then on (IT crowd style), wait to see the green light bleeping, and then climb down and leave as fast as I could. The whole thing would take 40-50 seconds (I was counting EVERY time). I couldn't wear gloves, because ladder/switch. I was wearing all other gear though. Touching anything (aluminum ladders get cold very fast at -40)(so are walls, switches, everything). I did this process a couple of times wearing just jeans and tshirt. In that "less than a minute" my clothes would freeze solid, the wool was hardning and it felt like wearing a plank. Same with jeans.

In other cold related story, I was in a "cold country", out in the open, -25 Celsius, my phone rang, my gloves didn't have the electro-thingie so I couldn't "slide to answer" so I too my glove off, answered, talked for 60 seconds. Then I went to a warm pub, and after 10mins I could bend my fingers again.

Yes cold can .... you up badly in seconds.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by maaaaattttt on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:15AM (#24867842)
I used to walk to school in sometimes very cold weather (-35 Celsius). Once, in order to try preventing the inside of my nose to freeze, I put my scarf over it. The scarf froze very quickly and I ended up with ice around my neck... Now that I’m thinking about it, I wonder how people will manage masks this year with COVID in cold countries.

TL;DR: don’t put a scarf over your nose in very cold temperatures.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by a-priori on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:16PM (#24871698)
I'm Canadian and we get -35 temperatures for at least a few days every winter. This doesn't make sense to me. Of course you should put a scarf over your nose. At those temperatures , exposed skin freezes very quickly so you need to cover all your skin or you'll get frostbite.

I've never had a problem with a scarf freezing stiff like you describe. They build up ice crystals of course, but they don't interfere with air flow and are easily broken.

The biggest problem I expect from wearing a mask in the winter is that they'll get damp quickly because the cold temperatures, and perhaps having a scarf over top, will prevent moisture from evaporating.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by yonaguska on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:34PM (#24871864)
I usually ride my motorcycle through winters in the upper midwest. No, it's not Canada, but at highway speeds in freezing weather it gets cold very quickly. I can't cover my whole face with cloth, or my breath will fog up and freeze over my glasses and visor. I apply vaseline over all of my exposed skin before riding. It does a great job of protecting my skin. I also do this when bicycling through extremely cold weather.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by HenryBemis on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:50AM (#24877853)
Heh.. many people commented on that. Perhaps you had a "single layer" that made it hard since the droplets/water from your exhale got stuck in the fabric, and together with the atmosphere's humidity created this effect.

In such cold climates I wear an ultra long scarf (2m-2.5m), I wrap my neck/jaw/ears 3-4-5 times (depending how tight) and I tuck it in my jacket. The outside of the scarf freezes, the inside remains warm. I also try to breathe by my nose, less humid.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Mo3 on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:13AM (#24868606)
Would a coronavirus survive in these conditions anyhow? Or, remain transmittable?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by xchaotic on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:14AM (#24869707)
It's a virus not a bacteria so the proteins don't disintegrate. The probability of transmission outside is small as sensibly people limit the time outside, but the flipside is they stay indoors, in confined spaces together, which is perfect breeding ground for the virus.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by shock on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:01PM (#24873360)
Cold acts as a preservative for viruses. In labs which do experiments with viruses, they keep viruses in freezers for a looong time.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jlokier on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:40PM (#24871913)
Last I heard the coronavirus survives a lot longer in freezing conditions than at room temperature.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by anoncake on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:53AM (#24886708)
Coronaviruses cause the common cold, which is more common when it's cold.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by superhuzza on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:39PM (#24875901)
>TL;DR: don’t put a scarf over your nose in very cold temperatures.

Weird, as a Canadian who has been through many -35 days, I absolutely use a face covering, whether that's a scarf, neck gaiter, mask...Never had any problem like that.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by trelliscoded on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:23PM (#24864415)
A manager is doing it by hand. Their POS system has the ability to lock out individual items, and this information is available in real time to the server backing the mobile app (GMA).

The machines that I've seen don't have real-time telemetry, and are not networked.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:04PM (#24864720)
Good info, thank you!

There was an old effort a long time ago where the machines were on a powerline-networking system (LONWorks) but that is dead and buried. The next-gen effort was ramping up a few years ago and I don't really know where it is now. The predictive analytics company they bought was a big part of it.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by imglorp on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:35AM (#24868770)
Meanwhile, Chick-fil-a is running Kubernetes at the edge for equipment, POS telemetry, and ML.

https://medium.com/@cfatechblog/bare-metal-k8s-clustering-at...

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by curryst on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:19AM (#24870383)
Their tech stack is far more bleeding edge than I would have envisioned. I wish they gave an idea of why they chose to use k8s at the edge. I can see how containers are useful for deployment, and the fail-over built into Kubernetes is really nice, but I'm shocked that's the simplest/best way to do it at the edge.

I would have expected some VMWare product, just because it's "enterprisey". Shame on me for judging.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by imglorp on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:02PM (#24871541)
Deployments and monitoring are probably another draw. Same tools server and edge side.

Another project to keep an eye on is AWS's Greengrass which has a bunch of capability overlap, but a bunch of new ideas for edge and fog IoT also. I had a mixed experience with it but at least some ideas bear borrowing.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by chapium on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:55PM (#24865291)
Not sure if this is the same thing, but I recall reading a case study in 2006 on McD's cloudifying their kitchen equipment. The project was apparently a huge failure and was eventually stopped due to runaway costs.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:52AM (#24869469)
Do you have a link to that anywhere?

The 2006 timeframe does fit with the LONWorks effort. The McD implementation used....powerline networking. Man was that a kludge.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by chapium on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:01PM (#24876307)
I don't sorry, but it was probably a HBR case study.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by oh-4-fucks-sake on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:14PM (#24864796)
Said another way:

  - You have a system whereby every instance has a 75%-79% uptime.

  - Each instance's 21%-25% daily scheduled maintenance window can (generally) be arbitrarily-scheduled by the ops team.
How do you near guarantee that there's always one instance available?

If you said:

  "manage a redundant cluster of at least 2 instances with non-overlapping maintenance windows" 
Then you were correct!

BONUS QUESTIONS:

Q: What's the max number of ice cream machines found in a McDonald's location?

Q: What's the cluster size of the McDonald's ice cream monitoring system?

Q: How much money does McDonald's have?

Q: Why the fuck?

If you said: "1", "at least 3", "metric fuck-tons", and "I don't know", respectively, then you were correct!

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by throwaway373438 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:42PM (#24864961)
The answer to #4 is probably that the goal isn't to always have ice cream. The goal is to run a profitable business.

Doubling the cost of the ice cream infrastructure to avoid a 25% downtime may not be a profitable venture -- especially if the downtime is scheduled to occur while the store is closed.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by dmix on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:59PM (#24865057)
Shelf-space is in high-demand and those machines aren't cheap.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by newforms on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:44AM (#24867265)
McDonalds is in the real estate business (letting buildings), fast food is just a side order.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by justinclift on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:52AM (#24868473)
Aren't the stores franchise's, with the individual stores owned by the relevant franchisee?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by maxerickson on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:32AM (#24868752)
The operations are mostly franchised, but the corp owns many of the buildings and plots of lands that they are located on.

https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/about-us/franchising/real...

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by peterwoerner on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:50PM (#24865564)
Also, you can use data to schedule the maintenance when the probability of someone ordering ice cream is low. That 21-25% downtime results in significantly fewer people wanting ice cream not being able to get it.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by DrScump on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:41AM (#24866953)

  In the good old days the soft serve and shake machines were taken apart every night and every piece was washed and bleach-sanitized by hand. 
I was a McD manager in my youth.

Not only were the internals fully disassembled and sanitized, they were left to soak in the solution overnight. All that was left behind was the cylindrical plastic chamber, sanitized and left to air dry overnight.

The messiest part was lubricating the O-rings with a petroleum jelly. Failure to remove all that when cleaning seemed like a good vector for microbes.

The worst job of all was cleaning the fryer vats.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:14AM (#24869703)
Heh! I did both of those jobs as well. I still remember the large plastic tray you had to use to organize all the little parts and O-rings.

Did you ever have a clever employee that thought they could use the 5-gallon plastic buckets as a quicker way to dispose of the old fryer shortening? I watched that happen one Sunday morning. That was amazing.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by EdgarVerona on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:39PM (#24865837)
I worked there in the old days when I was in high school (late 90's), and one of the most disgusting stories I have about a job is when I went to refill the orange juice dispenser machine, and a giant swarm of flies were all over and in the top of the machine. In the orange juice, all along the sides of the inside, and flying around like a small swarm when I opened it.

I yelped and stepped back. A manager rushed over to me, slammed the lid shut, and told me to not tell anyone.

I quit a couple weeks later.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by fingerlocks on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:47AM (#24866373)
Fruit flies or house flies? The difference matters.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by curryst on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:20AM (#24870394)
Is one worse than the other for some reason?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by wnissen on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:50PM (#24872022)
Fruit flies eat fruit and are harmless (if gross) to ingest. Black flies eat feces and rotting flesh and transmit all manner of diseases.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:11PM (#24862780)
Four to five hours, so let's say that happens daily and machines are out of commission 20% of the time.

Currently it's early afternoon and the site says that over 8% are out.

That's about halfway between "all overnight" and "all at completely random times".

Are almost half of the clocks set wrong? Assuming that the actual number of broken machines is relatively small.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by cdirkx on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:31PM (#24862975)
The machines still get taken apart and washed by hand, along with some maintenance, every 14 days. So every machine will additionally be off for an afternoon every two weeks.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nend on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:42PM (#24863086)
So it's basically a perpetual stew ice cream for 14 days? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by cdirkx on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:35PM (#24863556)
Basically, yeah. They get refilled multiple times a day, and it's continually stirred, but only completely emptied during maintenance.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by dmix on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:08PM (#24865104)
Picture of the mentioned 46yr old (beef) strew mentioned in the article: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

I'm not sure what material it's on to keep it heated. But something like coal I assume.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by SamBam on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:02PM (#24865069)
I would imagine this is what any industrial ice cream production that's making pints for grocery store freezers would look like.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by curryst on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:23AM (#24870433)
Are perpetual stews sanitary? I'm probably misjudging, but the idea of anything being out in the open for that long makes me uneasy. I guess it's kept at a simmer, so bacteria can't grow?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by shadowgovt on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:17PM (#24862836)
I'd be willing to wager that half the clocks might be wrong. It's something manager-on-duty can control, so Murphy's Law kicks in.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by dcolkitt on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:32PM (#24862984)
A standalone GPS NTP server is $750 retail. Commercial soft serve ice cream machines are at least $4000. Just building the machines with an autonomous GPS clock that doesn't need to be set, would double the revenue but only increase the upfront cost by 18%.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nixgeek on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:47PM (#24863127)
Since they need internet connectivity to phone home status to McCloud, I don't know why they wouldn't just run an NTP client to keep their time synchronized and accurate?

Moreover the $750 you reference must be a commercial product since you can do GPS on a Raspberry Pi for < $50 easily? Which product are you thinking works for this scenario? Think I've seen everything from $300 to $13000 solutions for this over the years.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by kelnos on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:29PM (#24864456)
I doubt these machines are internet-connected. Most likely is that the store manager notices the machine has gone into its cleaning cycle and manually marks the item on the menu as unavailable.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:02PM (#24863258)
You could have a cesium time source in the thing but if the service tech or manager sets it wrong...you're still borked.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by OJFord on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:25PM (#24863936)
But exactly the same borked each and every day!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by travisjungroth on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:14PM (#24865718)
Or a G Shock with radio based time correction is $90. Not saying you could use the watch, but maybe the receiver is available.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by tmearnest on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:27PM (#24874384)
And use some computer vision on the raspberry pi to read off the time? I love it! This is why they don’t let me work on hardware.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by dkn775 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:25PM (#24865771)
Can you provide some information as to how I could do a cheap GPS setup for a non GPS iPad in a similar manner?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by _-___________-_ on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:35AM (#24868771)
I think you can do TTL serial on the headphone jack? Just hook a uBlox module up there (or use Bluetooth)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by K0balt on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:39PM (#24863065)
If it was being integrated, the cost would be more like 5 dollars, since the ntp unit could just be an esp8266 chip that connects to the store wifi to sync the time.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by rkagerer on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:25PM (#24863470)
If they can't manage to set the time what makes you think they'll connect the Wifi?

(...although in fairness some of the other comments here suggest the things might already have some kind of int[er/ra]net connectivity in which case no extra hardware required)

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Nexxxeh on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:34AM (#24868762)
Have them log onto the free public McDonalds WiFi on first boot, and auto-provision themselves to the correct private WiFi?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by curryst on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:41AM (#24870665)
That sounds like an awful lot of work to not send NTP requests over WiFi. Then again, I'm sure someone will inevitably find a way to make these things spray ice cream everywhere over WiFi if they do. Or worse, mess with the internal temperature or cleaning settings to make them not safe to consume.

It's actually probably best they never touch the public wifi. I don't know why no one has mentioned ethernet yet, though. These machines are static, they just sit there. There's already tons of wiring going everywhere, so I would assume that it should be relatively easy to get a cable drop to the ice cream machine. Then you don't have to worry about any of this wifi security. You could do port level security, but that's probably overkill for an edge network.

I have actually been wondering lately why there isn't more of a market for some of these things that it seems like you could hack together. There has to be something I'm missing. You'll never be a unicorn, because most of these kinds of sensors have a limited scale, but it seems like a good return on investment for a small team.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Scoundreller on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:47PM (#24863125)
Add a couple hundred/thousand to penetrate the roof for an antenna to pickup signal.

WWV might be a better system, but runs you into time zone issues. Do you need a valid SIM to pickup time from 3G?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by red0point on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:32PM (#24863519)
I don‘t know about 3G, but I just checked for LTE [1] and the timing is broadcasted in SIB16, which is not encrypted, so theoretically anything could pick it up.

[1] https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/136300_136399/136331/11...

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by reaperducer on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:11PM (#24863347)
WWV/WWVH might not be a great idea, as I've read that there are rumblings about phasing it out.

You used to be able to pick up a time signal almost anywhere in CONUS with an FM receiver. It was encoded in the transmissions of PBS television stations.

This was back in NTSC days. Now that everything is digital, I don't know if it's still true.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jcrawfordor on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:21PM (#24864846)
The specification was called XDS and was developed by Sony to automatically set the clocks on their VCRs. PBS was a major participant but some other networks included XDS timecodes as well. Unfortunately late in the systems life reliability became poor (the encoder was not integrated with any of the other station equipment and was not being modernized) and I assume they all died out with the digital transition.

A better source today would be the time codes sent out by some FM radio stations with RDS encoders, to allow car radios to set their clocks. Unfortunately not that many radio stations do this and, once again, the time is not always all that reliable since the RDS encoder may not have any synchronization source itself.

The cellular network used to be an excellent source, CDMA cells required GPS time sync for TDMA reasons (well, CDMA reasons, technically speaking...) and broadcast a time code that is directly off of their GPS time source. Unfortunately, while GSM cells (and LTE) do broadcast the time, there is no guarantee made of precise synchronization as they don't broadcast a time code directly from their GPS source (not an expert in this field but I think the GSM/LTE time information comes from the possibly remote controller rather than the local radio hardware). Still, it would probably be good enough for this application.

GPS time sync is actually quite cheap to implement these days but tends not to work in these scenarios since a clear sky view is needed. WWVB is possibly on the way out. SNTP is probably ruled out less by the BOM cost of WiFi hardware and more by the deployment pain of having to get kitchen equipment configured for the corporate WiFi network.

Here's a fun idea: McDonalds presumably centrally controls the in-restaurant audio. Could they encode timestamps into the background music in a way that machines can cheaply recover? You wouldn't need high reliability, just enough for it to work once in a while. The old-ish Nielsen Peoplemeter system would be a model.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nullsense on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:32PM (#24864488)
They need to load balance them so the world can have HA soft-serve. Run them in a Kubernetes cluster.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by EE84M3i on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:39PM (#24865229)
Chick-fil-a actually has been running kubernetes at all their stores for a few years.

https://medium.com/@cfatechblog/bare-metal-k8s-clustering-at...

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by codetrotter on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:21PM (#24863906)
> McCloud

That’s an awesome way to name their cloud computing stuff that fits the brand really well. Is this an official/semiofficial name?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by realityking on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:35PM (#24864017)
Imagine McDonalds had invented AWS and called it McCloud.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by codetrotter on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:47PM (#24864095)
When you order a VPS they would’ve asked you then: “Do you want to supersize your order? For $1 extra you can have a whole bucket of RAM instead of a small cup of RAM”
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by toyg on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:48AM (#24866994)
Quite a few providers have wizards that effectively boil down to this...
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by mindcrime on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:53AM (#24866148)
This may be the first time I've actually wished HN had /. style moderation, so I could give you a +1 (Funny) vote.

Jokes are usually frowned upon here, but that's a good one. Have an upvote from me.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by javajosh on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:45PM (#24864084)
With the tagline "There can be only one."
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by duncan_bayne on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:43PM (#24864570)
It's no crazier than an online bookstore doing it :)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nullsense on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:29PM (#24864462)
Imagine KFC had invented it and called it Kentucky Fried Cloud
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by bonestamp2 on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:54AM (#24867018)
Then later rebranded it as "KFC"... the C is for Chaos.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nullsense on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:18AM (#24867127)
Kentucky Fried Chaos Engineering
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by noahl on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:16PM (#24865729)
Imagine if Barnes and Noble had done it, and you could drive to one of their stores to quietly sip a drink and peruse the new machines they had provisioned recently.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by k_sze on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:16AM (#24866232)
All controllable from your Nook device as well.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by adrianmonk on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:53AM (#24866405)
It would definitely be networked with Happy Meal Ethernet.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by dheera on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:10PM (#24865366)
There's an actual town called McCloud in California, next to Mt. Shasta.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by maxerickson on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:35AM (#24868773)
All running on an old mainframe named Connor.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:05PM (#24864729)
You should always substitute "clown" for "cloud" when talking about this stuff. Doubly so in this thread.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by core-questions on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:37AM (#24866321)
Hybrid clown setups are the best. All your data floats down here
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nsxwolf on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:33PM (#24863994)
Cleaning these things was my second most hated job when I worked in the industry. But deep fryers are a far more dreadful task.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by balls187 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:01PM (#24864222)
Worked at BK.

#1 hated task was cleaning the broiler.

#2 cleaning the shake machine

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by d23 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:24PM (#24862892)
Since you and the OP are here, I have a random question: were the blizzards ever made with liquid plastic ingredients?

It probably sounds insane, but someone from a plastics company spoke at my high school and said this was the case since it was easier to ship and needed no refrigeration. Now, decades later, I'm wondering if this was just complete nonsense or had an element of truth to it. I've been able to find nothing online.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by pbhjpbhj on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:56PM (#24863215)
Not my field, but edible gums (guar gum, or xanthan gum for example) is "plastic" (adj.). Gums are used more and more, AFAICT as a consumer; presumably to allow products to be bulked out with air.

Basically take anything homogeneous, add gum, add air, create a foam. Basically like an Aero bar but with way smaller bubbles.

You just cut a quarter (I'm guessing on this figure) off your ice-cream ingredients by weight and you can now advertise "scoops from the freezer"!

It's genius but just a more complex version of putting all the pizza toppings in the little window, or having the coleslaw tub be much wider at the top, or putting everything in a wide plastic skirt so the box is 20% bigger than it needs to be, ... packaged food sellers are scumbags.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by LeifCarrotson on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:14PM (#24863386)
This 'bulking up with air' is most evident if you go to the yogurt or cream cheese section and look for the Yoplait Whips or Philadelphia Whipped containers. It's the same product, just as a foam, and seems to be marketed as a healthier alternative where users choose a satisfactory portion by volume, not by calories or weight.

And while I think the whipped foods are stupid, I don't think that packaged food sellers are necessarily scumbags. They're merely people responding to incentives, just like everyone else. The food market has razor-thin margins and consumers are ill-informed. Neither consumers (who are hard to inform) nor regulators (who are captive to the multinational conglomerates) have been able to push back more strongly than the profit incentive, so the so dark patterns like those you describe are inevitable.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by cavisne on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:25PM (#24863931)
Plenty of dieters do this themselves with protein fluff/"ice cream" (protein shakes with ice and xanthum gum). Overweight people almost by definition eat by volume not by calories (ie they eat more than their body needs for caloric maintenance).

So these whipped products seem pretty useful.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by csours on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:25PM (#24863464)
Whipped cream cheese is much easier to spread, in my experience. I know I could whip it myself, but why not just buy it that way?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joshuak on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:20PM (#24863891)
For me it's because I don't add xanthan gum, and I get a bulk discount on air.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by milesvp on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:11PM (#24863831)
Yup, also generally same cost by weight.

My kids eat a lot of creamcheese sandwiches. Block cream cheese just destroys sliced bread.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by scythe on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:43PM (#24865239)
Essentially all cream cheese, whipped or otherwise, contains gums anyway. "Real" cream cheese is kinda grainy whenever I've seen it.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by wtracy on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:45PM (#24863639)
It's not entirely true that regulators haven't plushed back: in the USA, there's a minimum amount of cream required before the vendor can call the product "ice cream".

The products in that category that have been puffed up with air (and don't meet this minimum) get sold as "dairy desserts".

(I don't work on the food industry, so I won't be shocked if I got details wrong.)

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by wnissen on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:53PM (#24872051)
Which is exactly why McDonalds menus list "cones" and "sundaes". Not "ice cream cones". It's a frozen dairy dessert that is not legally ice cream. To be fair, McDonald's version is superior to any other fast food frozen dairy desserts that I've had.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by scythe on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:42PM (#24865237)
The bulking aspect doesn't bother me so much, what does bother me is that it's not as good and the only major ice cream brands left that aren't like this are Haagen-Dazs and Talenti.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jbverschoor on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:13PM (#24863371)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by lhoff on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:55AM (#24867307)
What the hell

There is no way i would eat something linke that.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Reason077 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:50PM (#24864122)
> "having the coleslaw tub be much wider at the top, or putting everything in a wide plastic skirt so the box is 20% bigger than it needs to be"

These days the trend seems to be to reduce the packaging, at least here in the UK. "Same size - less packaging!". So it seems like reduced packaging and distribution costs, and perhaps fitting more onto store shelves, outweighs any extra sales from customers who are fooled into thinking the product is bigger than it really is?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by IanCal on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:03AM (#24867062)
I think there are two things, one is a preference with some consumers towards less packaging (given two products about the same cost and one looks like less packaging I'll tend to pick that) and the other is there's been a lot of talk about taxing single use plastics so I've wondered if they've been trying to alter the supply chains before that point.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by wahern on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:21PM (#24863434)
"The future is plastics!"

I'm not a chemist but I've recently come to realize that the meaning of the term in the popular psyche has probably changed over the decades, taking on largely negative connotations, because of its association with a small subset of materials (albeit large by volume), most of which are either toxic, a pollution problem, or both.

AFAIU, in industry "plastics" is just a blanket term for moldable organic materials that chemists are constantly inventing. They're not necessarily sourced from petroleum, nor necessarily toxic. It's a ridiculously huge category of material, and plastics really were and probably always will figure prominently in our future. And I would assume that some traditional, even edible materials have been subsumed into the plastics category given the general scope of the term and the industry itself.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by kortex on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:40PM (#24876757)
Former chemist, yeah this always bugs me. Laypeople use "plastic" to refer to mostly inexpensive injection molded parts, but it really includes everything from LDPE bags to glass fibre reinforced nylon powertools to Rayon fibers to thermoplastic elastomers.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by fossuser on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:39PM (#24863062)
Maybe you mean McFlurry (Blizzards were Dairy Queen). Basically the same thing, but not sure if whoever said that was specifically talking about Blizzards.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by d23 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:19PM (#24863887)
Ah yes, McFlurries. Got my wires crossed.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Judgmentality on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:45PM (#24863107)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by DerekL on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:23PM (#24863445)
Yeah! Whatever you do, never eat pretzels! They dip them in oven cleaner before baking, then they sprinkle them with those crystals they use for removing ice from roads!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Bjartr on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:38PM (#24863580)
And dihydrogen-monixide figures heavily in their production. Nearly everyone that's ever died had consumed DHMO in the 24 hours leading up to their death!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nsxwolf on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:35PM (#24864019)
I prefer "oxidane" for this joke, as most people haven't heard it, sounds poisonous, and dihydrogen monoxide is not wrong but it is irregular.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by bloaf on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#24864288)
Can also try out "hydranol" or "dihydral ether".
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by hibbelig on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:20PM (#24863892)
DHMO is a very dangerous substance. For example, in gaseous state it causes skin irritation, severe burns even.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by surbas on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:42PM (#24863606)
Lye dipped pretzels are a thing! I didn’t know that thanks!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by chihuahua on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:08PM (#24865110)
A solution of about 4% NaOH is generally recommended. Submerge the pretzels for a few seconds just before baking. It does something to the outside layer of dough that results in the brown crust of the pretzel. In addition to the pleasant color, it also affects the flavor. Also, it makes it easier for the coarse salt to stick to the outside of the pretzels. NaOH immediately causes stains on clothes and wooden cutting boards and countertops. Obviously it's also bad for your skin and especially the eyes, so be careful.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by astura on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:35AM (#24866076)
Bagels are usually dipped in lye as well, it's how they get their bagel-y texture on the outside crust.

Sodium carbonate is sometimes used as an alternative to lye for those who don't want to deal with the safety aspect of handling lye, as lye is very caustic. Of course, lye still provides the best results.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by vageli on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:50PM (#24864134)
> Lye dipped pretzels are a thing! I didn’t know that thanks!

Lye-pickled fish is also a thing (lutefisk)!

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Blammar on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:52PM (#24863697)
The best tasting soft pretzels are the ones dipped in a weak solution of lye, for sure.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by balls187 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:04PM (#24864251)
Speaking about BK, the liquid they used to make the soft-serve was most certainly refrigerated.

Logically though, refrigeration based transport is not a concern for any fast food company. They use ingredients that absolutely must be transported cold, thus the cost of adding another menu item that must be shipped cold to that list is immaterial (even at scale).

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jonny_eh on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:41PM (#24863080)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by shakna on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:16PM (#24865387)
> Mcflurry ingredients: https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/mcflurry-with-ore... (no mention of plastic)

That's actually incorrect, they list two plastics there. It's just that "plastic" isn't something that is actually necessarily toxic, and the media misuse the terminology all the time.

The two are:

> Cellulose Gum, Guar Gum

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by punnerud on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:26PM (#24862914)
Someone should save the data over time and figure what is wrong with every machine. If this is made public and enough tech people tell the store every day to change example from 2pm to 2am, this will likely result in a better product for everyone.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ehsankia on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:02PM (#24862704)
At first I was gonna ask why does this not run on off hours, but then you mention bad clock, so the next question is, why is the % of bad clock so high, and why isn't the clock also cloud based or set in a way that can go wrong.

Next up, what about redundancy, do stores only have one machine?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:14PM (#24862815)
McD is conservative when it comes to kitchen technology. With certain exceptions, franchisees determine when they buy new equipment and not the corporation. Most of it is designed for a 7-year capex cycle.

But to answer the question: no, the machines aren't net enabled and do not NNTP their clocks. But that's changing.

But I still wouldn't design my architecture to let a central server decide when a machine should go out of service. Think about what else you can fuck up that way.

Why are they off? Good question. Sometimes it's as simple as a store owner setting the heat cycle for 2pm instead of 2am.

Why are they not redundant? They're expensive, take up a lot of valuable space and a lot more valuable energy, they need to be filled with 2x the product, and the customer demand isn't that high at any given moment to warrant the expense in most stores.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nrmitchi on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:15PM (#24862824)
> Next up, what about redundancy, do stores only have one machine?

From my (old) experience working at one, yes. The annoyance of having to maintain a second machine (especially when cleaning and maintenance involved a physical person cleaning things) was not worth keeping extra 9's of uptime.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ehsankia on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:32PM (#24862991)
Well again, looking at the graph, I'm seeing 10-20% down time, so it's not "just an extra 9"
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by msandford on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:38PM (#24863056)
I think you might find that in a certain way it is. 90% to 99% is an extra nine.

/ducks

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by xboxnolifes on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:54PM (#24863715)
Or even zero 9s (80%) to one 9 (90%).
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by thisisnico on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:08PM (#24862747)
Cloud based clock.

Don't you mean NTP? We've had this technology for years! If it's connected to the internet, it's a pretty fundamental piece of pretty much any networked OS. You can ensure correct time this way.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:14PM (#24862812)
NTP is fine but so is pulling time off a server header if it's phoning home to report status.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nitrogen on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:17PM (#24863404)
Not that it matters for ice cream, but NTP can compensate for latency better than HTTPx can.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by thisisnico on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:52PM (#24872039)
It's also easy to implement since it will be integrated into the OS of the ice cream machine already.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ezconnect on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:39PM (#24863061)
GPS based clock is better no need for internet connection. Seiko and other company has been doing this for years.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by marshray on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:52PM (#24863174)
NTP is typically backed by GPS.

If you have a datacenter full of computers, obviously you don't want to run a separate GPS antenna for every system. NTP allows systems to synchronize to GPS over a network.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Scoundreller on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:07PM (#24863316)
Need a clear sky connection though.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ehsankia on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:31PM (#24862981)
NTP is what I meant, yes.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by arkitaip on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:11PM (#24862779)
The clock probably resets when the power goes out or the fuse blows. They would need a battery as a backup to keep the time current.
[dead]
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by antris on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:15PM (#24863853)
Calling fast food workers monkeys won't make you look any smarter.
[dead]
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by javajosh on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:26PM (#24864439)
I've not heard that term used, and its bad. You shouldn't dehumanize people for being "cheap labor". Honestly, that guy flipping burgers is doing more real good for people than any number of highly paid software devs working on VC funded projects that will mostly end up in the trash.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ahartmetz on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:38PM (#24864939)
I think it's more acceptable to make fun of people of your level of privilege and up (like the management who underpays) and less of those lower.

If a fast food worker at a better paying, better run chain or restaurant said it, it would be still a little mean (as intended), but not kicking down.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by xeromal on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:15AM (#24866228)
yup. They call it punching up. No one likes someone who punches down. lol
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by xeromal on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:13AM (#24866221)
Did you work in Oakbrook? I was on a team that was trying to make a few smart restaurants. We got to about 50 before the project was canned but we were trying to put everything from fryer oil life to what the platens were cooking and HVAC all on a touch screen. It was a lot of fun.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:58PM (#24876597)
I’ve worked for a few commercial equipment makers. Talked to Oakbrook and Romeoville but never been inside.

Every time McDs changes CEOs I feel bad because that means almost every current project is going to be shitcanned as the new person tries to make their mark. Are you still there now?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by xeromal on Sunday October 25, 2020 @01:24PM (#24887990)
Haha, nah, the project was canned and I moved on to greener pastures.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by homero on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:14PM (#24864792)
Chick-fil-a is ahead of the game here, they recently put edge compute into every store
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by duxup on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:30PM (#24862374)
I suppose ice cream isn't high on the list of services they feel they need up and running all the time, but if the machine is determining this I would think there would be some level of predictability that would allow them to schedule sanitizing and etc.

It's funny that the machine tells them there's no ice cream. I visited my local library for a tour. They have an automated system that collects returned books, sorts them, scans and processes them, then puts them in boxes to be shipped to other libraries if they need to go there. Or puts them in carts and labels them with instructions about the efficient path to travel to return books...

The humans just take orders from the machine when there is a cart ready with books to be put on the shelf or boxes to be sent to other libraries.

Interesting times.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by macd on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:56PM (#24862646)
There's a great short story called Manna that builds on this idea: https://marshallbrain.com/manna1
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ada1981 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:40PM (#24863072)
This is such a great short story!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by hug on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:40PM (#24864951)
It's about ten years since I've worked with an ice-cream machine, but in my experience no matter the model they never forced you to try not to serve ice-cream.

They would enter their self-pasteurisation cycle, and the display at the front would tell you that is what it was doing, but it wouldn't prevent you from pulling the handle, if you so wished.

The problem, though, was that the barrel of the machine where the mixture was normally frozen was now at some 60 degrees C, it would be much much higher pressure than usual, and since the entire staff of a McDonald's tends to consist of teens who don't exactly take pride in the precision in which they carry out their jobs, at least once a night you'd have some poor kid blast a fine mist of hot sugary milk over themselves and the surroundings. Sometimes twice.

Sometimes I miss working at McDonald's.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by SaladFork on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:51PM (#24865280)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by aeyes on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:05PM (#24862726)
> I suppose ice cream isn't high on the list of services they feel they need up and running all the time

Depends on the country, here it is hot 9 months of the year. People queue up for ice cream every day. McDonald's has mini stores only selling ice cream.

Maybe it's the same in hotter parts of the US (which the article is about), for example Florida.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by tschwimmer on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:28PM (#24862347)
I recently saw a video that actually showed the machine (allegedly) was sterilizing itself. The video showed all the ice cream in the hopper melted and soupy, presumably heated to kill bacteria in it. The video creator claimed it took some hours to complete, thus the common claim that the machine is "broken"
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by technick on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:41PM (#24864050)
I can tell you from working at mcd's in the late 90's, nobody wanted to clean the machines or take care of them, so we would turn the machines off. The manager generally didn't care unless someone complained to corporate or the franchise owner.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by userbinator on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:34PM (#24862415)
But why "broken" instead of "down for scheduled maintenance"?

The latter implies continuance of service, the former leaves that open.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jandrese on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:52PM (#24862603)
Because the teenage wage slave at the register doesn't give a shit about your fine distinctions.

When I worked that McDonalds the machine was almost always down simply because the night crew didn't give a shit and it was too much effort to clean. I worked mornings with the old folks because I was too uncool for the night shift.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by qppo on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:45PM (#24863108)
hey now, most of the people I see working at McDonalds are fully grown wage slaves. Chick Fil A and In and Out seem to be the main purveyors of adolescent labor these days.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by savrajsingh on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:44PM (#24864571)
"Good sir, it appears that our ice cream machine is down for scheduled maintenance, can I interested you in a piping hot apple pie perchance?" - teenage wage slave ;)
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Nicholas_C on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:24PM (#24862899)
Morning shifts at McDonald’s were tough, especially on Sundays with the big post-church rush.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by Kehvarl on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:30PM (#24862973)
If you tell the customer "It's down" or "Down for maintenance" you will absolutely get some who tell you "Just turn it on for me and give me my ice cream". If you tell them "It's broken" then you don't get that.

Even though it's a valid distinction, I'm not sure it's one that's valuable to the interaction being described.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by raverbashing on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:48PM (#24862551)
It's a simple way of shutting down the customer. Broken: non-negotiable. "Understandable, have a nice day"

As these kinds of places attract the pettiest and most annoying customers anything else would make the customers try to bargain with you, even for stupid crap like that.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:12PM (#24863358)
It's unfortunately the way the interactions between individuals and organizations seem to be trending towards.

The flip side is that when you have a non-standard request to a business (like a bank) or a government agency, it used to be that a low-level clerk would have some workarounds, or you could escalate to a manager. Now, they all have a convenient excuse: "the system doesn't let me do that". And it's true, because it's all SaaS software with inflexible business rules, controlled by some central team that neither you nor the clerk will ever be able to reach.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by daemin on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:56AM (#24869516)
Yep, which is why I get pissed off at manual processes in which people are strict and exactly comply with the rules and forms. One thing wrong, nope, cannot accept this document. Well then in that case those people are no better than a computer and I welcome the day they get replaced with one.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by drewmol on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:31PM (#24862980)
^this is the correct answer!
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jl6 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:41PM (#24862493)
“Down” used in that sense is computer jargon. “Broken” is universally better understood, at the small cost of some accuracy which doesn’t matter to the customer.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by nocman on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:50PM (#24862582)
No, that's by no means originated with computers.

People have said "the phone lines are down" for years, meaning landline phone service was temporarily unavailable (often when no actual physical cables were knocked down off of poles, etc, though that might be where the use of the term originated in that case).

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of using 'down' to mean the same kind of thing (all of which predated computer use being common in a regular person's life).

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by noir_lord on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:57PM (#24862654)
Iirc it goes back to telegraphs, the line been physically down would prevent them working and it’s hung around since.

Like hang up, when was the last time I hung up a phone, that style of phone went out of fashion here 30 or more years ago.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jacobush on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:26PM (#24862927)
Ackshully it's from the even older phones with separate earpiece and fixed microphone. You'd really hang up the earpiece on these old ones.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by mcphage on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:56PM (#24863209)
You'd physically hang up wall phones, even when they had a combined microphone and speaker: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515Mj67cq3L...
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by jacobush on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:30PM (#24863504)
Yes, but what I meant was that the expression is likely even older than from the ones which went out of style 30 years ago.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by johnsillings on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:43PM (#24862505)
It matters to me
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by tenebrisalietum on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:51PM (#24862596)
Why? What are you going to do different if you are told it is broken versus down for maintenance? You're still not getting any ice cream?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by thenewwazoo on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:18PM (#24862846)
The French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre was sitting in a cafe when a waitress approached him: "Can I get you something to drink, Monsieur Sartre?" Sartre replied, "Yes, I'd like a cup of coffee with sugar, but no cream". Nodding agreement, the waitress walked off to fill the order and Sartre returned to working. A few minutes later, however, the waitress returned and said, "I'm sorry, Monsieur Sartre, we are all out of cream -- how about with no milk?"
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by zerocrates on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:10AM (#24866780)
Brings to mind the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy text adventure by Infocom where you start the game with an item called "no tea" in your inventory.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by brokenmachine on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:49PM (#24864120)
I don't get it.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by pgcj_poster on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:44PM (#24865526)
Sartre believed that it was impossible to abdicate the responsibility of making choices, because to choose to do nothing is still a choice -- in other words, "nothing" is a kind of something. So one might humorously imagine that Sartre would also think that "no cream" is a kind of something that could be different from "no milk."
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by feintruled on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:37AM (#24868796)
Excellent! I once went to a local burger place - they have a menu full of the various types of burgers, all loaded with everything. My kids are super picky, so I asked for a burger, with nothing except the burger and the bun.

Server looked confused - but which burger did I want? It became apparent that while I could ask for a preset item and ask for removals, I could not actually go fully off menu. So I had to ask for "the cheese burger, without the cheese" (as somehow distinct to say, the bacon burger, without the bacon). I laughed at the ludicrousness of that, but now I see they were channeling Sartre! In retrospect it would have been a truly beautiful absurdity if see had come back and said "sorry, we have no cheese, do you want no bacon?"

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by donarb on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:31AM (#24870536)
Like the scene from Five Easy Pieces with Jack Nicholson. He asked the waitress for an omelet with a side of toast. She says they don't have a side of toast, so he asks for a chicken salad sandwich, on toasted wheat bread, and hold the mayonnaise, the lettuce and the chicken salad.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by daemin on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:54AM (#24869491)
I get the feeling that it's also easier for the cashier to put it into the point of sale / ordering system. There are buttons for specific menu items, and then buttons to remove things from them, but no buttons to build a burger from scratch.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by withinboredom on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:23AM (#24878230)
I remember working at the drive thru for Wendy’s. I learned all about some clever orders that saved you $0.50-2.00 by ordering things a certain way. I can’t remember anything specific, but I remember one time asking, “so you want an X?” And they came back with “no, put it in exactly how I told you.”
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by gtirloni on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:38PM (#24865490)
In the ice cream situation, broken and down mean the same thing. In the Sartre anecdote, milk and cream mean the same thing.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by DrScump on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:48AM (#24866991)
No, it was a logic error on the part of the server. Since he requested without cream, their lack of cream was irrelevant.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by istorical on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:06PM (#24862733)
One implies neglect or incompetence, the other implies a limitation of a system.

Some people would look down on a franchise or a restaurant or a business that had super high failure rates. Like if the comedy section of Netflix went down every 3 times you tried to visit that section. As opposed to Netflix having some system level limitation requiring them to perform some magical dance and perform some spell every few days to keep the server room from exploding.

You would perhaps give Netflix more leeway and not feel as much disdain and switch to a competitor if you knew that the comedy section being down every once in a while was some legitimate limit the engineers had found and not just a shoddy organization. But if you just got some nginx 500 error page randomly you would be like 'wow this site is hot garbage'.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by asquabventured on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:18PM (#24864826)
Sir, this is a McDonald's.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by kelnos on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:39PM (#24873858)
This is McDonald's we're talking about. No one walks into one expecting spit-and-polish and Michelin-starred service.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by vestrigi on Thursday October 22, 2020 @05:13PM (#24863372)
Further if they told the customers that it was sanitizing itself they would assume that there would be an issue with the hygiene.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by eli on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:41PM (#24862492)
"down for scheduled maintenance" is phrase that's very common in the tech world but sounds weird in a restaurant.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by InitialLastName on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:33PM (#24862996)
Given the "entitled customer" incidents I've experienced, seen, and heard about, "scheduled maintenance" sounds intentional and like something "you shouldn't be doing when I want my ice cream", where "broken" sounds like something the guy behind the counter can't help.

I'd be willing to bet that "broken" is just less likely to start a fight with an enraged customer whose day was very slightly inconvenienced by their inability to consume extra junk food.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by bradly on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:04PM (#24862715)
> Ice cream, as a food that is very close to neutral in pH and without much in the way of preservatives, is a common source of listeria bacteria.

Former Blue Bell Creamery CEO was recently charged with seven counts of conspiracy and fraud for not taking proper actions in regards to ice cream based listeria in 2015.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by tectec on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:54PM (#24863191)
But their listeria just came from being licked?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by bradly on Thursday October 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#24864281)
No. It came not following standard practices to prevent contamination. Multiple plants had contamination and three people died.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by m1 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:33PM (#24863992)
> Ice cream, as a food that is very close to neutral in pH and without much in the way of preservatives, is a common source of listeria bacteria.

I know very little about food science so apologies in advance but curious as why they don’t add preservatives themselves to the Ice cream and why other pH neutral foods McDonalds do don’t require as much care as the ice cream?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by missedthecue on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:27PM (#24862330)
How hard is it to devise an ice cream machine with a simpler sanitation process?
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by cm2012 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:41PM (#24862490)
Considering McDonalds is on the forefront of food automation tech, probably harder than you think.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by joezydeco on Thursday October 22, 2020 @08:01PM (#24864699)
Well, not always on the forefront, but they're the best at scaling it up reliably once they get it working. They test the living hell out everything they ship.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by amelius on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:15AM (#24868242)
How about some redundancy then? Two machines instead of one.
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by madeofpalk on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:26PM (#24862918)
I would have imagined someone in technology (or at least enough to read HN) would understand the hidden complexities of things they're not intimately familiar with
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by missedthecue on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:52PM (#24863178)
Well I don't, hence why I'm asking...
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by ajford on Thursday October 22, 2020 @06:49PM (#24864115)
Pasteurization via heating the entire machine to a high temp and holding for some time is likely the simplest you can get. No need for cleaning solutions, flushing, etc. Simply heat the thing up for a few hours.

As for duration, that's a function of temperature and desired safety margin. The higher temp you go to sanitize, the faster you can sanitize, but if they're heating the ice cream mix as well, there's likely a limit to how high they can get without damaging/altering the mix. So the other variable is time, and that's probably what leads to the multi-hour sanitize cycle.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by seanwilson on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:43PM (#24862514)
> Ice cream, as a food that is very close to neutral in pH and without much in the way of preservatives, is a common source of listeria bacteria.

How come the the high amount of sugar in ice cream doesn't help?

Would it be any different if it was a non-dairy milk like soy?

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by theobeers on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:19PM (#24862858)
That effect kicks in at higher sugar concentrations, e.g. a 2:1 sugar:water simple syrup, which can have some shelf stability. I don’t think soft-serve mix would be even close.

You need for there to be little enough water in the solution that cells with permeable membranes will be desiccated through osmosis. This can be seen in a common household science experiment, where you remove the outer shell of an egg by leaving it in vinegar for a while, then submerge it in corn syrup to watch its further transformation.

Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by rlonstein on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:18PM (#24862843)
Sugar itself is food. It's the fact that sugar draws water out of the medium that it retards some kinds of bacterial growth (not botulinum for example).
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by skykooler on Thursday October 22, 2020 @09:48PM (#24865259)
Sugar is pH-neutral, and is not itself a preservative (it's pretty much the opposite).
Re:I reverse engineered McDonalds’ internal API by 55555 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @10:29PM (#24865447)
Oh I see so it's a feature, not a bug. :)