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Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gruez on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:30PM (#19833847)
>Wright refused, telling the officer both devices contained confidential information protected by solicitor-client privilege.

>He said the officer then confiscated his phone and laptop, and told him the items would be sent to a government lab which would try to crack his passwords and search his files.

Can this be used to get whatever case(es) he was defending thrown out because solicitor-client privilege was violated or parallel construction was used?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by jandrewrogers on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:57PM (#19834018)
This and related edge cases are something that I've always wondered about e.g. where compliance would be illegal. There are a number of scenarios where one can have content on devices that it is expressly illegal to disclose to random border police. Even within a single country, there is a conflict of authority here.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dontbenebby on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:05PM (#19834058)
When I was a grad student I worried about this, since I was required to keep study participant data and student data confidential.

Sounds like this lawyer arrived at the same plan I did:

Refuse the request, file a lawsuit, and contact the media when released to shame the government that saw fit to violate my rights.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vbezhenar on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:03PM (#19834721)
Encrypt the data (probably easiest way is to use encrypted 7z archive), memorize the password, upload the encrypted data into any cloud storage (e.g. Google Drive) and don't care about disclosing anything on your devices.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by belorn on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:11PM (#19835097)
For work data such as the lawyer in the article I would recommend go one step further and not having the password in the first place. You can achieve this by for example having the server admin at work remotely unlock the device at request, have hardware tokens at trusted locations, or software that provide similar effect. No amount of $5 wrench or legal threats can change the situation as it not in your hand to give them access, and you can helpfully give the path forward for the officers to follow. Even better if you have a written company policy with you which spells out that employees don't have capability to unlock devices during travel.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:36PM (#19835995)
For confidential work data, unless there is a reason it needs to be used disconnected from the internet, it would be better if it was simply never on the laptop at all. The workplace could just use virtual desktops that never leave the company’s IT infrastructure, but are remotely logged on to from whatever device users need to work from.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gingabriska on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:07AM (#19836790)
How 5 dollar wrench won't work in this case? Isn't administrator going to follow his order, so he can made to call the administrator and reset keys etc..?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Bartweiss on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @03:47PM (#19852811)
The value of the trick is just in pushing access control outside the situation.

Border services generally have extensive but constrained powers - in the US, they're limited in how far from a border they can exercise authority. So they don't get to arrest the administrator directly, or go and confiscate an access key sitting in Edmonton. They can still demand that whoever is at the border arrange for unlocking, and can probably seize the device if they're refused. But the threat "we'll lock you up until you open the device" is potentially legal, while "we'll lock you up because as a hostage until somebody else opens this" has far less merit. (Obviously, none of this applies if you go someplace where actual hostage takings might happen.)

If the administrator says "I need physical access to unlock that" or "our firm's policy says I can only open devices once they're at one of our offices being used for billable hours", there's no one handy to apply the wrench to. At that point, confiscate-and-image is as much access as anyone can hope to get.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by wereHamster on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:14AM (#19837035)
This assumes you can get the wrench close enough to the admin. If they are in another country, one that is outside of your jurisdiction you'll have a hard time applying your wrench.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dredmorbius on Monday May 06, 2019 @07:30AM (#19838408)
The wrench need only be applied to whomever tells the admin to unlock the archive. In a manner that the admin is likely to accept the request.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:45PM (#19841146)
This is where duress codes can be useful.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dredmorbius on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @03:57PM (#19852903)
Quite.

Drill those, though.

Under stress, people fall back on learned patterns.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by bigiain on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:11AM (#19837203)
The usefulness of this "trick" relies on not having the _data_.

They aren't going to hit me with a wrench for the decryption password to a cloud-stored blob that's not on the device (and ideally, one they don't know about. Remember the password and the location of the data. Remember to secure-delete it from your device though. There should be an easy "prep for border crossing" checklist that includes this.)

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Buttons840 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:12PM (#19835402)
Like, leave a private key at home and encrypt your drive with the public key before crossing the border? Yeah, at that point you are powerless to do anything until you are at home.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by TheCraiggers on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:11PM (#19835669)
But what's the difference? The end result is the same: your device(s) are confiscated and they attempt to brute force the password. Telling an officer that you cannot give them the password because you did some techno-mumbo-jumbo is just going to piss them off and make them assume you have "something to hide" because "no honest person would go to those lengths".
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by rlue on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:09AM (#19836803)
Yes. This thread is full of people proposing inventive technical solutions to genuinely prohibit your own access to the device while you're going through customs, as if border patrol a) knows the difference and b) gives a damn. These are all functionally equivalent to "Um, I forgot my password." (Or, if you wish for a more plausible but equally ineffective excuse, "This is actually my mother's laptop; I'm bringing it to her and I don't know the password.")

If an LEO (claims to) need access to something and you give him a dead end, it's his job to assume you're lying and find the next legal option available to him.

The real question you should be asking yourselves isn't "How would you outsmart the caveman cop in this situation?" Rather, it's "What can/will you do, as a citizen, to resist the erosion of our civil liberties?" Sadly, I have no easy answers here.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by abeyer on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:45AM (#19836938)
> it's his job to assume you're lying and find the next legal option available to him.

Not sure where you live, but in the US it's actually his first and foremost responsibility to uphold a constitution that says that people are free from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by endymi0n on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:27AM (#19837068)
Well, in a country with a for-profit, for-"performance" law enforcement system, where prosecutors are paid by how many people they put in jail and cops are paid by how many traffic tickets they write, do you really think some paper from 1787 is going to have much influence on a TSA agent if their paycheck depends on sorting out as many "bad guys" as possible?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by thefringthing on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:56AM (#19839395)
The Canadian constitution (specifically the part of it called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms) guarantees the same right, however, constitutional rights in Canada are granted only up to "reasonable limits". Those limits are determined by the Supreme Court.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by krageon on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:30AM (#19839198)
> people are free from unreasonable searches and seizures

I want to say "clearly you have never used US customs", though I suppose it's possible you have and you are just very lucky.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Amygaz on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:10AM (#19838630)
Oh you should try that at US border. Let us know how well it worked out...

Spoiler alert: If not cooperating, then BPO not friendly; Else, please proceed.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by fredgrott on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:05AM (#19839018)
better solution access stuff via ssh graphically another desktop machine for all work and browsing...last access remove the ssh key

than when CBP ask for password give it and watch them search the laptop..

You full filled your legal obligation to follow their orders despite the illegality its now their problem they cannot find anything

Note...all social public stuff is searchable on google..tweets facebook postings etc..

CBP never needs a password they are searching with that password for other reasons than the ones they GIVE

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Buttons840 on Monday May 06, 2019 @04:43PM (#19843634)
You're right. I missed an important part of the comment I was replying to: you need to say something about "company policy" or "company lawyers", now you're playing in the both the social and technical realm.

Nothing justifies an honest person going to great lengths to do some weird thing quite like "company policy".

Nothing makes officers think twice like the mention of lawyers backed by Apple / Google levels of money.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by xvector on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:52PM (#19835580)
This only works if you trust egress border crossing more than ingress. Otherwise you might as well not bring your laptop along in the first place as it'd be an encrypted deadweight.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Scoundreller on Sunday May 05, 2019 @11:43PM (#19836687)
As a casual traveller without multiple devices for different forms of travel, the idea of neutering 90% of my data temporarily actually appeals to me.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by pmorici on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:26PM (#19834846)
Not a great idea. You have no reason to believe deleted and cached copies aren’t lingering on you disk unprotected.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vbezhenar on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:32PM (#19834887)
If you're THAT worried, then securely reformat disk and reinstall OS just before travel.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by morganvachon on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:59PM (#19835019)
This action can be flagged as suspicious as well, triggering a deeper investigation into the traveler.

It's not always feasible, but the most secure way to protect clients'/employers' data is to encrypt the laptop and phone and ship to your destination via standard shipping services, then ship them back the same way before leaving for home. Carry a well used but non-critical burner laptop ($50 Chromebook off Craigslist) and/or phone ($20 Walmart smartphone) with you that won't wreck your world if it's confiscated and searched. If it is seized, take your receipt and go on about your business. When you get to your destination your actual devices will be waiting for you. You can safely forget about the burner devices.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ColanR on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:13PM (#19835107)
Your advice to mail ahead your secure computer is not good. Mailed electronics are just as susceptible to search, if not more so, as what you keep with you.

I think the reality we have to grapple with, regardless of rights violated, is that if you want to cross a nation border, it's best to assume that all nations involved will end up with a copy of all the data (hopefully encrypted) you move across that border. In the face of that scenario, how do we proceed?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by morganvachon on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:17PM (#19835695)
Unless you are under an active investigation, the chances of your mailed laptop or phone being intercepted and searched are far, far less than if they are on your person at the border.

Still, if you are paranoid enough you can mitigate the danger of your data falling into unsecured hands (at the border or by mail intercept) by using an encrypted shadow volume:

https://www.veracrypt.fr/en/Hidden%20Volume.html

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by logifail on Monday May 06, 2019 @11:27AM (#19840277)
> the chances of your mailed laptop or phone being intercepted and searched are far, far less than if they are on your person at the border

Isn't "mailing a laptop" now counted as sending dangerous goods, due to the battery?[0]

If so, the chances of it being subject to interception and/or search might well be far higher than someone just carrying a laptop in hand luggage across an international border.

[0] https://www.dhl.com/en/express/shipping/shipping_advice/lith...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ThePowerOfFuet on Thursday May 09, 2019 @06:01AM (#19866786)
How do you think the manufacturer ships them, one by one, to the purchasers?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by logifail on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:08AM (#19875724)
I've just had a look on my favourite parcel shipping site and found this wording in their terms:

> RESTRICTED ITEMS The following items are deemed unsuitable for shipment by our services, and are therefore restricted. Any of these items being sent may result in surcharges, delays or confiscation by authorities where appropriate. No damage cover is available with these items:

> [a long list of stuff, including laptops]

So, who here would be happy to ship their laptop internationally without damage cover?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by mises on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:44PM (#19835273)
It's much easier for a policeman to demand the password to decrypt data when he has you in custody at customs than when it is searched by the mailman.

You're confusing "not perfect" with "not good". There's an old saying: when outrunning a bear, you don't have to be the fastest guy, you just have to be faster than the slowest guy.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by chii on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:21PM (#19835450)
> It's much easier for a policeman to demand the password to decrypt data when he has you in custody at customs than when it is searched by the mailman.

is that really true? I would expect that they can just perform hardware tampering when you're not present when searching in mailed items, but given that customs might use racial profiling to target you at airport, you may be better off mailing the computer securely, such as using tamper-proof or tamper-evident stickers/bags.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by michaelt on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:31AM (#19838776)
Dragnet demanding your password at the border is something we know they do - there are loads of witnesses saying they were asked for passwords at borders. Dragnet hardware tampering of electronics in the mail is not something we know they do.

I've only seen two articles claiming evidence of physical tampering - like a hoax about Dell from 2005 [1] and Bloomberg's dodgy story about spy chips from last year [2] - neither of which seems truthy, and neither of which involved mail interdiction.

(Of course, it's widely suspected mailed hardware can be tampered with, but most of the claims/speculation I've read has been about targeted tampering, not dragnet)

[1] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/keyboard-loggers/ [2] https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/04/bloomberg-spy-chip-murky-w...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dontbenebby on Monday May 06, 2019 @04:04PM (#19843214)
>I would expect that they can just perform hardware tampering when you're not present

On what legal authority?

The border search exemption is about searching, not tampering.

The issue is more that border agents are taking advantage of a law written before the age of computers to use powers the founders probably never intended.

I seriously doubt that there's any legal basis to bug a computer just because it was shipped internationally.

So if the threat model is being asked for your password, not being present when the device crosses is a good mitigation.

(If you've done enough bad things they government is targeting you specifically, YMMV)

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:40PM (#19836016)
> Unless you are under an active investigation, the chances of your mailed laptop or phone being intercepted and searched are far, far less than if they are on your person at the border.

Inbound international mail is also subject to search by customs, that doesn't just happen to stuff the owner carries across the border.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Scoundreller on Sunday May 05, 2019 @11:44PM (#19836693)
Just send it like most other things in this situation are sent: in pieces.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by TheDong on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:19PM (#19835933)
> most secure way ... encrypt the laptop and phone and ship to your destination via standard shipping services

Absolutely not. Any time your hardware is physically out of your control is a time when someone could install a hardware keylogger or replace your ethernet card with one that exfiltrates data or whatever.

The most secure option is to travel with an encrypted hdd/phone on you with no way to decrypt them, and separately acquire the private key (e.g. via shipping a secure hardware token which is made to be tamper resistant to a trusted friend at your destination).

If the devices leave your control for more than a few minutes, consider the hardware compromised and never unlock them again.

Laptops simply are not made to be highly resistant to an attacker with physical access, whereas hardware keys are, so it's not a good idea to ship them.

If you do ship them, you'll have to do a physical examination for suspicious hardware at your destination, (as you presumably did when you first received them if you're that paranoid), and it's damn hard to find a good lab for that in some countries.

Your advice is good as a way that's secure for most people's threat models, but it is a far cry from being the most secure solution, and I'd argue it's much less secure than simply carrying them with you.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by zzo38computer on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:25AM (#19836872)
Carry a computer with encrypted data but don't use it; remove the hard drive to copy the data to another computer in order to decrypt the data with the separate key. Discard the old hard drive and old computer afterward.

Do not use a single key; require several keys that are with different people, combined only in the way that you know how. Ensure the people are present to notice if the police try to come in.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by morganvachon on Monday May 06, 2019 @07:38AM (#19838438)
By paraphrasing my comment as you did, you avoided the point I was making. What I proposed is the easiest and most secure way for a normal traveler not already under suspicion to avoid losing/exposing potential client and employer data to a foreign government during a border confiscation. By no means is it 100% foolproof and I never claimed it was. As I said elsewhere in the thread, if you're already the subject of an investigation your mailed package will be intercepted, but that's an entirely different conversation.

In short, the scope of my comment was avoiding a border seizure during travel, not 100% securing your devices from being compromised, which is an impossible goal short of just not using any devices, period.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by qwerty456127 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:47PM (#19835297)
> This action can be flagged as suspicious as well, triggering a deeper investigation into the traveler.

More and more people are probably doing this so this is going to stop being suspicious.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by nokcha on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:16PM (#19836351)
>This action can be flagged as suspicious as well, triggering a deeper investigation into the traveler.

Whenever I travel internationally on business and need a laptop, I'm required by company policy to bring a laptop freshly wiped by IT instead of my normal laptop.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by mirimir on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:28AM (#19837266)
That's sensible. So is this becoming the norm?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by angott on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:57PM (#19835007)
Yes, that’s something we can do as HN readers, but good luck explaining that to the average lawyer or paralegal.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by wepple on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:10PM (#19835088)
Instructing then how to power wash their chrome book and then simply login with their you okey again is achievable
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by cormacrelf on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:13PM (#19835905)
Or just set up a rental service for overseas computing. Good thing about non-programmers is they don’t need three days to get 300 pieces of software installed and configured on a new machine.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by pmorici on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:55PM (#19835603)
If you are going to bother you might as well do something that will be effective.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by BurningCycles on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:51PM (#19834981)
Can't you just use a tool like 'shred' to securely delete the file(s) ?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dan-robertson on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:24PM (#19835174)
The problem here is knowing where all the files are. Are you sure you could list all the places eg ms word stores cached copies of your document? And that you’d be able to overwrite the data from copies that have since been unlinked from the filesystem?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by snuxoll on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:24PM (#19835472)
Encryption is a better solution, always. It’s easier to forget a passphrase and render the key useless, especially if you’re using a SSD where the controller has no obligation to actually overwrite a cell that you’re trying to shred.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by yepguy on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:11PM (#19835667)
My understanding is that shred hasn't been reliable for many years now due to smarter and less predictable firmware in modern storage devices. Basically, you can't trust that your SSD deleted the data it said it did, or that it writes data to the place you told it.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by colejohnson66 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:04PM (#19836111)
Even with spinning rust, a sector remap would keep the old data in the old spot
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by efreak on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:44PM (#19836436)
So far as I know, wiping free space is a feature that has been available for many years in free utility suites and even recovery software (CCleaner, etc). I believe it's also directly available in Windows' Disk Cleanup utility; on Linux you call just use dd to fill the disk. This isn't as secure as a multiple wipe, but it can also be done multiple times; on Linux you can alternately use tr or some such to tell dd to write ones instead of /dev/zero.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by colejohnson66 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:56PM (#19836492)
Wiping free space doesn’t wipe the original location of a remapped sector. AFAIK, nothing will short of low level format, which you can’t do these days.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vbezhenar on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:32AM (#19838175)
I'm not sure if it's feature of all modern SSD or Samsung ones, but I know that those SSD use AES internally for all data (not for encryption specifically, but because they need random bits for better storage and encryption is just a bonus). User usually does not deal with it, as it's handled in firmware, but BIOS have the option to securely erase the disk which just generates new key instantly and then, obviously, it's not possible to recover any data from old sectors.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by viraptor on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:11PM (#19834779)
Discover that your password has ended up in a swap file one day and hasn't been overwritten, and chrome left you logged into Google drive. I wouldn't trust this approach not to fail by accident.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dorgo on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:41PM (#19834934)
Let the computer you used for encryption and uploading at home.. Take an empty/new notebook/smartphone with you to show at the border?

edit: place a big random data file, which looks like encrypted data on your alibi notebook. Refuse to give password and let the government lab try to find the password..

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by graedus on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:51PM (#19834978)
> Let the computer you used for encryption and uploading at home.. Take an empty/new notebook/smartphone with you to show at the border?

This is certainly safer, though maybe not possible on the return trip (where you're returning from someplace where you only have access to your laptop). If you need to be this careful, maybe it's best to do your work after livebooting into tails or something like that.

> edit: place a big random data file, which looks like encrypted data on your alibi notebook. Refuse to give password and let the government lab try to find the password..

Funny, but unnecessarily risky if you ask me.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by marci on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:17PM (#19835426)
Am realizing that not so long ago, saying that entering a democratic nation was riskyer if, just a few seconds before customs, you had entered in a command line:

   head -c 1000000000 /dev/urandom | openssl enc -aes-256-cbc -a > risky.1Giga.file
would have been considered tin-foil-hatty, and now we're just getting use to it
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vbezhenar on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:34AM (#19838178)
I think someone was imprisoned in UK for refusal of giving password. Don't joke with government.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by jMyles on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:45PM (#19835553)
> don't care about disclosing anything on your devices.

I'm not sure this is good advice. I think it's almost certainly better to have an unblemished record of assertion than a mixed record of assertion and acquiescence. Surely the latter appears far more suspicious.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Fnoord on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:56PM (#19835331)
I don't know about the US, but here in The Netherlands the technical cops are aware of cold boot attack. As a lawyer crossing a border you should use a device with a secure enclave, and have the device off. Or better: don't cross the border with your device.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by cameronbrown on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:00PM (#19835853)
Wouldn't it just make more sense to keep all the data encrypted on a cloud service and not travel with any of the data physically? One step further would be to not travel with any devices at all, and just purchase something after crossing the border.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by cormacrelf on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:10PM (#19835892)
That’s the idea behind 1password’s travel mode. Ostensibly you could do that for an entire device, but the easier you make it for yourself, the easier it is to write legislation saying you have to undo what you did. (Depends on the various jurisdictional constitutionalities of that kind of provision, but still.)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by grawprog on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:37AM (#19839782)
Rather than an encrypted archive, would an encrypted, hidden partition not work better? Anything sensitive goes on there, have it unmounted and invisible, leave the rest of the system as is let 'em login and search what they see.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by whamlastxmas on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:27PM (#19834854)
Full drive encryption and then using spideroak for cloud storage is a better and easier solution
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by fauigerzigerk on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:54PM (#19834993)
Full disk encryption doesn't help if you share the password that decrypts the disk.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by all_blue_chucks on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:26PM (#19835725)
Unless that disk had a low-level factory wipe afterward, some amount of that data will still be on the disk somewhere, and law enforcement has all the tools needed to recover it.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by petre on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:03AM (#19836771)
7zip uses a vulnerable RNG. It was posted here a while ago.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by isodude on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:12AM (#19836810)
Why not reemove the drive and replace it with something basic with a plain os installed? It's quite simple even with MacBooks.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Johnny555 on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:55AM (#19836967)
Recent Macbook Pro's (I think all of the touchbar models) have the SSD soldered to the motherboard, so it's not simple to remove the hard drive.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by isodude on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:43AM (#19837307)
Good reason not to buy then :)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by webninja on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:11PM (#19835401)
Or use Veracrypt with AES25 and a 30+ character password. Good luck NSA trying to break that.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by xvector on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:53PM (#19835588)
Methinks the NSA could break AES-25 just fine :)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by neya on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:31PM (#19834879)
It's easy to break your encryption. Trust me, if you live in a country that has crap laws, they will actually extract the password from you:

https://xkcd.com/538/

Edit I'm not saying it's a bad idea to encrypt your drives, just that it doesn't save you from someone determined..

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:37PM (#19834914)
This post is about western countries. The vast majority of western countries will not literally torture you to death, in order to get rando citizen's phone passwords.

Encryption works great for this usecase, that almost everyone in this thread will be using it for.

People being tortured for their personal phone password by a rando border guard in basically any country, just isn't something that happens, despite what the internet memes would lead you to believe.

Even in supposedly bad countries, I really doubt that this "attack vector" is something that happens frequently.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by cmurf on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:55PM (#19834997)
How long can you be detained? And under what conditions? More than a few hours will get the vast majority of people cooperating. I suspect they could detain you for 24 hours, or even several days, but I don't know what the legal limit is for detaining a citizen at the border of their own country.

And for quite a lot of other people, even not being personally detained, but having to acquire new devices is inconvenient enough to compel cooperation. Who wants to buy new devices? Who has a need for two sets? It'd only be a cost of business for someone who does a decent amount of traveling and has confidential information to protect.

But then, that's a trap too because why should people need a reason? Why are only people with business/legal confidential information a protected class?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:05PM (#19835057)
> How long can you be detained? And under what conditions

The answer is not very long. I'd call "a couple days" to be not a big deal, and not at all equivalent to being tortured to death, like the person I was responding to was implying would happen.

So yes, encryption does work, and all that will happen to you is that you could be moderately inconvenienced.

But even that I would expect to be rare. Most border security would just look at your computer, or whatever, not find anything on it (because the thing you show them just looks like an empty computer), and move on their way.

The narrative that I was responding to was this idea that technology solutions can always be bypassed, by torture or something, therefore technology solutions are worthless. And that's just not true.

An extremely effective technology solutions to an incompetent border guard that is interrogating you is for all your devices to just appear like there isn't anything on them, like a new factory default computer that you just bought.

A guard will just look at that, not see anything, and then move on to the rest of his crappy job.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Joakal on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:38PM (#19835524)
I gather it could be indefinite detention. Say 5 hour detention then they ask again. Then detention again. Repeat.

I think a couple days is good enough because people will miss holidays, work, plans etc. That's Western nations "torture" equivalent of a wrench

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:03PM (#19835632)
> . Say 5 hour detention then they ask again. Then detention again. Repeat.

Ok, and does this happen in real life?

The answer is no. It does not. In almost any western country in the world, the low paid border security guards are not detaining people in mass for days on end.

This stuff just isn't really happening to any large degree.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Mirioron on Monday May 06, 2019 @03:02AM (#19837378)
You can go to jail for years in the UK for refusing to disclose a password to law enforcement.[0]

[0] https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/09/04/how-refusing-to-...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:01AM (#19838059)
And how often does that happen, in real life?

The answer is "not that often".

The example you gave was of someone who was suspected of murder.

The amount of people who are in the population of "people suspected of murder, and are jailed for not giving up their password", is a very small population size.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Mirioron on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:33AM (#19839227)
So as long as the government makes a pinky promise to never use their power elsewhere it's okay? Think at least a little about the future. They might be doing it now for a good cause, but how long is that going to last? There's nothing stopping them from jailing anybody who refuses to give up their password, because what's jailable is the act of not giving up your password.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:26PM (#19841677)
> So as long as the government makes a pinky promise to never use their power elsewhere it's okay?

I never made any claims about what is or it is not OK.

The only claim that I am making is that this whole "XKCD wrench meme" is dumb, and that encryption actually works really well for the vast majority of people in the vast majority of usecases.

That's all. Encryption works, and you are not going to be tortured, or locked up forever, because you refused the order of a low paid border guard.

Such situations are extremely rare, and it is annoying that people keep bringing them up when they basically don't happen to anyone.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by notatoad on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:36PM (#19834911)
the parent isn't saying to encrypt your drives, they're saying to encrypt your data and store it separately from your computer - essentially treat any devices you're carrying across the border as compromised before you even reach the border.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by graedus on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:42PM (#19834940)
If I'm understanding vbezhenar correctly, the implied step after uploading the encrypted file to a cloud storage service is to securely delete it from the computer you're carrying. Then, the authorities won't know that there is anything to beat out of you with their $5 wrench.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ineedasername on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:02PM (#19835040)
Yeah, but you still get beat with the $5 wrench. And if it was going to work in compelling you to give the password, it will still be pretty effective getting you to provide access to the cloud storage and the encryption password to it.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dmurray on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:08PM (#19835384)
A couple of people would get beaten with the wrench the first few times it happened, but after a few weeks and a few high profile cases from Fortune 500 employees of "my CIO is the only one with the key", they'd move on to other targets or other methods.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by stale2002 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:11PM (#19835090)
How does the low paid border security drone even know you have a cloud storage account?

What country do you live in that has to worry about people being tortured to death on a frequent basis?

This stuff just doesn't happen often, despite what a silly XKCD comic would lead you to believe.

Encryption actually works pretty damn well, for basically all usecases that a normal person would come across.

The world is not a James Bond spy move.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by saagarjha on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:21PM (#19835154)
You're not going to be tortured to death, but there are quite a few things that the government can do to make your life miserable.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by mortenjorck on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:51PM (#19835312)
The $5 wrench isn’t what most people have to worry about; it’s the 5-hour detention without charge.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ddalex on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:57PM (#19835611)
5 hour detention is nothing - expensed vacation :)

Extraordinary rendition to the Guantanamo Bay is what concerns me.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by incompatible on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:09PM (#19835390)
Maybe also have some relatively uninteresting encrypted files which you can hand over in this situation?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ineedasername on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:32PM (#19836205)
I'm not saying any of this is likely. But, as the topic was raised, if they break you and you start talking, you will volunteer the information. They don't need to know before hand.

That said, the most practical scenario here is to keep your important files secured somewhere else, cloud or elsewhere, and when they ask you to unlock your phone or laptop you say "Sure!" Because there's nothing to find and you're compliant and helpful so they quickly let you go after a proforma search.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by chupasaurus on Monday May 06, 2019 @03:15AM (#19837423)
> The world is not a James Bond spy move.

Yeah, there is no James Bond outside the books and screen. But thermorectal cryptanalysis is out there and still beats most of cyphers with ease. And it's not letal!

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by zzo38computer on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:10AM (#19837201)
But it will not work if you do not know the password. (It can also be time locked with false data; they don't know whether or not it is the real data.)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by GoblinSlayer on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:32AM (#19838782)
Or log into a guest account and let the dude search all he wants, lol.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by derefr on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:59PM (#19834352)
If someone is travelling from country X through country Y with documents destined for country Z, and the government of X wants the documents to reach Z unobserved, this is the usual use-case for a government-of-X diplomatic pouch. (Or, if it’s the Z embassy sending to Z, a government-of-Z diplomatic pouch.)

I wonder if you could make the case here that the US government should be ensuring the functioning of its judicial system by issuing lawyers who leave the country a “loopback” diplomatic pouch—one issued by X, destined for X, protected during travels to all not-X.

(This could currently be achieved by X-gov issuing a pouch destined for X-embassy in transit country Y, which the traveller must visit to have their documents re-wrapped in a pouch from X-embassy back to X-gov. The change would just simplify things by making the visit to X-embassy unnecessary.)

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by cmurf on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:58PM (#19835013)
Lawyers are not diplomats. A diplomat is an official representative of their country.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by asr on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:14PM (#19835417)
Broadly speaking, I agree with you, but, FYI, diplomatic status is not just for "diplomats." US government lawyers travel on diplomatic passports for official business (eg depositions in other countries). And all lawyers are "officers of the court" and can be, for example, forced to take random cases pro bono if some judge goes a little kooky and demands it. So it's not as far-fetched as it might sound to give all lawyers diplomatic passports for travel.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sokoloff on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:13PM (#19835410)
It is a non-goal of mine to solve this problem only for lawyer citizens of my country.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by im3w1l on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:09PM (#19836126)
A solution is to just not cross borders with things you can't disclose.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by mirimir on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:28PM (#19836389)
There's more to it than potentially thrown out.

Could he be censured for failing to secure information about clients? IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that over-sharing about clients can be a poor career move.

And what if this had been a US lawyer, who was representing someone who'd received a US NSL? Would he have violated the NSL? Who would the US go after, him or Canada Border Services?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Bartweiss on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @04:04PM (#19852949)
> Could he be censured for failing to secure information about clients?

If this were a US attorney at a US border, almost certainly not. ABA rules permit attorneys to disclose client information (among other reasons) "to comply with other law or a court order."

Even as far as a US attorney receiving orders from another country, or a blatantly illegal instruction within the US, they should be alright. The lawyer didn't actually disclose client information, they just lost control of it. The ABA only requires "reasonable efforts to prevent the inadvertent or unauthorized disclosure of, or unauthorized access to, information" about clients. Offering up the password might not have been a reasonable effort, especially in the absence of consequences for refusing, but having the device imaged and cracked seems to clearly exceed reasonable efforts to prevent unauthorized access.

As for NSLs, what a mess. I'm not sure anyone can answer this for you. They already push the established bounds of compelled speech, so general precedent wouldn't be a trustworthy guide. And any NSL-specific precedent was almost certainly set in closed, confidential hearings, so the people only people familiar with it wouldn't be able to discuss it.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vuln on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:04PM (#19834052)
You will never be able to prove parallel construction happened.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ouid on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:10PM (#19834085)
who has the burden of proof though?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ghjjjj on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:17PM (#19834118)
You do since the courts assume the parties behave honorably (I.e. they assume there is no parallel construction)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by late2part on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:46PM (#19834289)
Sadly this is an incredibly cogent concept. We saw this with Lavabit and when courts accept patently false LE testimony.

The system works when corruption and deceit aren't present or tolerated - when they are the institutions become suspect.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ghjjjj on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:43PM (#19835790)
I don’t have much problems with assuming parties are honorable. In fact I don’t know how a justice system would work otherwise.

My problem is that our prosecutors are often dishonorable!

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by StanislavPetrov on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:31PM (#19834516)
There is corruption and deceit in every system, which is why we must demand total transparency, checks and balances on all of our institutions.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by khazhoux on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:57PM (#19834346)
edit: wrote comment about Herring v. United States but this is a Canadian case.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by aroberge on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:03PM (#19834370)
This is about a Canadian case. There is no such thing as a precedent from an American court.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by logfromblammo on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:37PM (#19836417)
In theory, any ruling in any Common Law country could be cited as precedent in any other Common Law country.

As the US has the 4th amendment, most US search-and-seizure cases rest on it. If anyone were ever so bold as to argue a positive right to privacy for all humans--rather than the weaker but easier to prove prohibition against US governments committing privacy-violating acts--and the case was decided on it, that case could be used as precedent everywhere.

Judges are generally careful about not doing that, for obvious reasons. If a lawyer tried to make the case about a right to privacy, the judge might decide the outcome of the case base on that, but the opinion would certainly say that the litigant won or lost because of some other reason.

Statutory law is generally robust enough that judges can almost always decide based on it rather than on discovered law. So it's not that Canadian courts couldn't accept American precedent, it's just that American courts make special efforts to not set any Common Law precedent that a Canadian court can use. If it ever happens, it's likely to be in civil equity cases between two or more non-government parties.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by kenned3 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:18PM (#19834452)
Why do people feel a need to post laws and such which are not relevent to the discussion?

This is hosted on CBC (Canada broadcasting corp) and clearly this is about the "Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA)"

what does US laws have to do with this?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Scoundreller on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:23PM (#19834835)
Sometimes when there is a lack of local jurisprudence, courts will look at other jurisdictions for guidance. But it’s more common for a colony to do that when the motherland has more case law.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dghughes on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:08PM (#19834395)
In Canada technically it would be Whoever v. The Crown (Queen Elizabeth).
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by heraclius on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:55PM (#19835000)
In British practice my understanding is that it would be A v. R.; the website of the Supreme Court has judgements the form R. v. A and A v. Her Majesty The Queen. Whence your usage?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by lawn on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:14PM (#19834105)
If it can, sounds like a loophole to get a case you're working on thrown out. If it cannot, sounds like a convenient way to gain extra leverage.

And all it takes is to bribe an officer.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by vuln on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:29PM (#19834185)
Even an attempt at Bribing a law enforcement officer is a felony.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by lawn on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:48PM (#19834616)
Yet it happens all the time.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gumby on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:01PM (#19834710)
There are various linguistic constructions you can use for plausible deniability (e.g. "at home I can just pay a fee to get into a different priority group: do you have the same system here? I think I have enough cash to cover it.")

I actually once did pay a speeding ticket to an arresting officer (in Montana or Wyoming or one of the Dakotas IIRC -- it was decades ago) an it was very clear how the officer handled it that he was not pocketing the money (e.g. he held an envelope I placed the check into, I licked and sealed it, and his boy never came in contact with my check, though cash was also an option).

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by arnonejoe on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:24AM (#19836865)
Maybe set up a VM on AWS and bring a new laptop over the border. Or leave your laptop at home and VM into it. Or ship your laptop to where ever you're staying and bring a burner phone over the border. Doesn't seem like a difficult problem to solve.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by rando444 on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:49AM (#19838242)
So because you personally can hide your private data, that makes this an acceptable form of security for 'everyone else'?

Pardon me while I humbly disagree.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by digianarchist on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:29AM (#19836888)
Everything you just said is a massive inconvenience.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by system2 on Monday May 06, 2019 @03:32AM (#19837495)
Why? I am literally working like that all day long and it is super easy to achieve. Maybe takes 15 minutes to setup everything.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ahaferburg on Monday May 06, 2019 @03:51AM (#19837548)
As opposed to having your laptop seized for multiple weeks?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gist on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:34PM (#19834215)
> Can this be used to get whatever case(es) he was defending thrown out

Along the same lines a case could be made for legal malpractice if it was reasonable for the attorney to know that there could be a search (and it is he is an attorney and the assumption is he is familiar with the law). It is similar to putting his phone unlocked in a car and the phone or the car is stolen. There is a reasonable expectation that the attorney will safeguard client materials (is what I would argue). (Paper files in the office and not giving the proper protection the same).

Bottom line is the fact that he is an attorney does not magically in itself also mean he doesn't have to take prudent steps to prevent the release of information (with regards to malpractice).

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by deogeo on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:42PM (#19834263)
Unlike the stolen phone, in this case it would be the same entity that's stealing confidential data, and holding him responsible for the data getting stolen - the government.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by fjsolwmv on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:50PM (#19833981)
Probably only if the seized information was provably "used" for something.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by rahuldottech on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:30PM (#19833849)
IANAL, but I think it might. Bot sure though.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:55PM (#19834333)
>> Can this be used to get whatever case(es) he was defending thrown out because solicitor-client privilege was violated or parallel construction was used?

That isn't what this is about. Nobody is talking about what this is really about and it isn't anything to do with him being a lawyer. This guy (1) was traveling alone (2) to a distant (3) and poor (4) country without preexisting business ties (5). Those are all red flags for sex tourism.

I cannot say this strongly enough: I would never say this guy is a sex tourist, nor would boarder services. But they do run a program that targets people who meet certain criteria, criteria that this guy seems to have fallen into. Most famously, a bishop returning from Thailand had his laptop "randomly" searched by this program. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Lahey) There have been other less-pubic successes too. The program is controversial but within the bounds of Canadian law.

So before everyone goes nuts about terrorism and attorney-client privilege, realize that this innocent person was caught up in a program that has nothing to do with those things. Canadians are polite, especially when dealing with sensitive matters. Canadian cops don't shout things from rooftops. Because of the nature of what they are looking for, boarder services isn't going to give any public explanations. They will hold the electronics for some time, as is their right, but they likely regret "randomly" selecting this particular person. In the future they will probably add "not a lawyer" to the criteria.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dmix on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:06PM (#19834388)
Guatemala is well known as a drug transport point. Plenty of the politicians there were caught being directly involved. Which, along with other contraband, accounts for the majority of the customs actual work and far more likely to be the concern with any traveller from there:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-guatemala-politics/guatem...

https://www.insightcrime.org/investigations/the-zetas-in-gua...

http://latinalista.com/columns/globalviews/venezuela-no-1-tr... (see the chart, plenty of flights stop in Guatemala).

Still, it's no excuse to search Canadian citizen's phones or laptops. Either find probable cause (ie, some actual evidence which indicates a crime besides abstract "red flags" about travelling which could apply to thousands of innocent people) and get a warrant or don't do it. Otherwise it's open for tons of abuse and unnecessary invasions of privacy.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:14PM (#19834426)
Don't use american definitions of "probably cause". Canada is a different country and defines probably cause very differently. Canada has a different relationship with its boarders than America. The physical scale is are different. Sovereignty is different. Canada's "charter rights" are different than american "constitutional" rights. Canada placed greater trust in individual enforcement officers and, generally, doesn't play the legal dances that are common in the US in relation to searches. Canadian boarder services agents may have greater power than their US counterparts but they are still a billion times easier to deal with than that TSA. Ask canadians if they want to adopt US-style rules and plenty would say no on principal alone.

Notice that this guy is now free and able to tell his story. He wasn't detained in handcuffs for days. He wasn't transported to a remote jail for interrogation. He wasn't charged with some trumped-up excuse to hold him. He wasn't subjected to a body cavity search. He wasn't added to some terror list. There is no allegation of racism. They seem to have politely explained the situation and let him on his way. Canada does things differently.

[edited for clarity, for those who require simple literality].

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dmix on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:20PM (#19834457)
Probable cause is a core part of the Canadian charter:

> 3) based on reasonable and probable grounds to believe that an offence has been committed and there is evidence to be found at the place to be search.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/chec...

This is not some unique American concept. Otherwise I don't see what point you're trying to make...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by lsiebert on Sunday May 05, 2019 @11:54PM (#19836733)
Though Canada's constitution has this weird ability to suspend fundamental rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_33_of_the_Canadian_Cha...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by derefr on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:25PM (#19834485)
Yes, both countries have a concept of probable cause, but they have different definitions of what constitutes it—of which only a little is what is spelled out in the charter/amendment; most of the effective criteria come from case law.

In other words, just because this kind of profiling wouldn’t constitute probable cause in the US, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t constitute probable cause in Canada. (I’m not sure that it does constitute probable cause in Canada; I just don’t know for sure that it doesn’t.)

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by refurb on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:47PM (#19834608)
Canada does things differently.

As a Canadian, I would say “not really”. Plenty of examples of people’s rights being violated by Canadian officials. Those events don’t get the scrutiny that US events do, but they certainly happen.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Scoundreller on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:27PM (#19834851)
And the Canadian courts are far more likely to say the infringement was acceptable, either in that court, or under an appeal if the government loses.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ivl on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:25AM (#19839677)
Which is terribly unfortunate, and makes me value my Canadian citizenship less and less.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by hw on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:00PM (#19835031)
I don't think he was specifically referring to the american or canadian or australian or <insert country X here> definition of probable cause, but rather the concept itself.

I don't know why you're trying to make a point about Canada vs US and how one is better than the other. Just because he's free to tell his story and wasn't prosecuted doesn't mean that the CBS is off the hook for seizing upon his electronic devices - without reason - and even threatening that they would be sent to a lab to be cracked.

I'm neither an American or Canadian citizen, but when I do travel to these countries I would expect that my privacy not be breached, especially not without reason and when I've already cooperated and consented to my bags and other personal items to be searched.

Now the next time you travel, and the CBS or US CBP decides to seize your devices, are you going to just surrender your devices, given that they've explained everything nicely and will let you go on your way?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by foldr on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:00PM (#19834693)
> Canadian boarder services agents may have greater power than their US counterparts but they are still a billion times easier to deal with than that TSA

I think you mean US Customs and Border Protection, not the TSA.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by lohszvu on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:04PM (#19834373)
What is wrong with sex tourism?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:27PM (#19834492)
In most parts of the world, sex workers don't exactly have strong human rights protections. In a poor country, it's generally worse.

A relatively wealthy, privileged person going someplace poor for sex is probably doing it because it facilitates doing rather nasty things in a way that is comfortable for them. They don't need to be ugly about it. Someone else will be ugly about it on their behalf while making them feel great about spreading their money around.

This often means they are raping children or otherwise indulging sexual predilections too unseemly for sex workers in more well-heeled parts of the world.

So sex tourism is generally understood to be a polite term for exceedingly depraved behavior with a veneer of civility.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by pault on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:31AM (#19837272)
Are you saying that single men who travel to Thailand specifically to have easy access to prostitutes are often in it for the child sex and degrading sex acts? Isn't that like saying people that go to mosques are often terrorists? Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your comment, but as worded it sounds like you believe the majority of sex tourists are pedophiles. In my experience, having spent several years in Thailand, most of them are there to have lots of consensual sex with adult sex workers because there is no legal prostitution where they live. The notion that more than a fraction of a percent of them are kiddy fiddlers is pretty out there. I also disagree with your claim that the term sex tourism is used as a euphemism for sexual exploitation. I've never heard it used that way, at least. A sex tourist is someone who travels to a location for the express purpose of having sex with prostitutes.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:34PM (#19834531)
This. Anyone who thinks they are targeting people visiting Amsterdam's red light district, or Nevada's bunny ranch, needs to read more. This is about people seeking underage sex in countries where it is more accessible than in Canada. Thailand, Vietnam, all of south america ... a single male with no family ties, returning alone from such countries should expect some attention at the Canadian boarder. They are looking for the pictures, the possession of which is a serious crime in Canada.
[dead]
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:18PM (#19835148)
Not in my case. I'm for the decriminalization of sex work, among other things. I'm just against raping children and generally mistreating poor people because you think you can get away with it.

Keep it among genuinely consenting adults, and I don't care how many, what genders are involved, how you folks agree to get your freak on and yadda.

Just one easily findable prior comment by me:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821347

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by arminiusreturns on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:00PM (#19835353)
Terrorism, children, drugs, or sex; all excuses used for attacking individual liberty. Let's get real here, stuff like this is about control, not about security, and certainly Nota about morality...

That's just how politicians package it so the people swallow the poison pill.

That said, I feel like people vastly overestimate the similarity of governments of the US and the UKs vassal states like Canada, and that false expectation is part of why people get outraged. Once one understands this the authoritarian approach of the "Commonwealth" nations things make much more sense.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:12PM (#19835406)
I answered a question about what is so bad about sex tourism and also responded to accusations that being against child rape amounts to puritanism.

If you want to narrowly define Puritanism as against child rape, okay, I will proudly accept that label.

Beyond that, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I'm not here to discuss politics. I have very little to do with politics. If you think explaining the term sex tourism is some sort of political agenda, agreeing with a particular policy, etc, you are reading in a whole boat load of stuff that isn't there.

I'm a private citizen, not a politician. I'm engaging in discussion on a forum. That's the extent of that.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by GoblinSlayer on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:48AM (#19839342)
The post is about politics though.

>I'm a private citizen, not a politician.

You mean citizens don't bear responsibility for politics? Does it mean that politics is disconnected from society?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sctb on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:13AM (#19838653)
Please don't post flamebait like this again. It's flamebait because it's both inflammatory and unsubstantive. It's like spending your last dollar to buy spoiled milk.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sctb on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:05PM (#19842063)
> Terrorism, children, drugs, or sex; all excuses used for attacking individual liberty.

You've provided no basis for this claim.

> Let's get real here, stuff like this is about control, not about security, and certainly Nota about morality...

You've provided no basis for this claim.

> That's just how politicians package it so the people swallow the poison pill.

I take this as an expression rather than a claim, but still it doesn't teach us anything.

You haven't tied your point about sovereignty to the topic of discussion, and when commenters don't do that we get taken off into generic tangents.

This is not about holding controversial opinions. It's about failing to meet the standards of discourse here, and meeting them is a rather mechanical thing which all commenters are capable of.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sctb on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:10AM (#19838631)
You're failing to meet the bar of discourse here in this thread. Please review the guidelines and start following them or we'll ban the account.

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by brigandish on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:05PM (#19836113)
> A relatively wealthy, privileged person going someplace poor for sex is probably doing it because it facilitates doing rather nasty things in a way that is comfortable for them

Or simply because it's easier because prostitution is not (as) criminal and/or it's well organised (e.g. red light zones), and not forgetting it's likely to be much cheaper. To assume their choice of destination for something as nasty as raping children is quite a jump.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:13PM (#19836137)
It's not an assumption. That's based on reading about the topic.

It may not be universally true, but the fact that it is fairly often true is why the term has such negative meaning for most people.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by brigandish on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:28PM (#19836391)
What kind of percentage are you talking about? "Fairly often" covers a, erm, multitude of sins.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:42PM (#19836429)
I've gone back and reread my initial comment. It has plenty of qualifiers. I think it is adequately clear and stands on its own just fine, without further clarification.

I have no idea why you are nit picking this. I'm not going to discuss it further with you.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by brigandish on Monday May 06, 2019 @04:12AM (#19837641)
It was a sincere question. You say you've read up on this. I haven't, though I have lived in Thailand and travelled around the region, and from my personal experience (not as a consumer, but I don't need to be a smoker to have some idea (anecdotally) of the level of smoking around me) the vast majority of foreign men that were consumers were not involved in anything to do with children or any such thing.

Hence, I was interested in actual data. That's all. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Monday May 06, 2019 @04:46AM (#19837783)
You may think I mean straight up pedopholia involving elementary school aged children. That can happen certainly.

But a 17 year old is legally still a child in many jurisdictions. A lot of men in their twenties see nothing wrong with getting involved with a 17 year old.

If you are talking a dating situation, my views on that get a lot more complicated. If you are talking prostitution, a 17 year old sex worker is highly unlikely to be there by choice.

At that point, it is, in fact, child rape, even if you aren't comfortable with the terminology and wish nicer language were used to describe it.

I don't feel compelled to try make it sound nicer given how damaging it can be to the child in question.

Statutory rape doesn't have to be violent. The minor may even have nominally agreed. But the law says they can't actually meaningfully consent as a minor.

If they are a minor and a sex worker, they are likely being trafficked. That's where this gets really nasty. The guy paying for the service may be blissfully oblivious to just how much she is being pressured, has no real choice, etc.

I covered that in my original comment. That's a large part of why this is an ugly thing.

You (the general "you", not you in specific) hand wave away that she's 17 instead of 18 because it's only a few months and he may not have actually known her age etc.

It's a slippery slope that basically says if you can fudge on enough "little" details, it's totes fine to rape children. Traveling to a foreign country for your cheap sex is a very handy way to gloss over those details and pretend it was all above board and nice when it probably wasn't.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Dylan16807 on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:40AM (#19838203)
How about we avoid that slippery slope entirely, by using a very expansive definition lumps in sex with anyone under 21 as going in the 'depraved or otherwise a problem' category.

Now will you please consider giving some data or some kind of percentage or explain why you said "probably"?

No one is trying to claim this kind of horrible behavior doesn't exist. But I want to understand the scale of the problem. Trying to figure out if it's 10% or 90% is not nitpicking!

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Monday May 06, 2019 @07:39AM (#19838444)
Thailand’s Health System Research Institute reports that children in prostitution make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand. In Cambodia, it has been estimated that about a third of all prostitutes are under 18.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism

There are many readily available articles on the topic just a Google away if you really want to know more.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by brigandish on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @01:05AM (#19846758)
The reference on Wikipedia is from a report[1] by the "UNITED NATIONS INTERREGIONAL CRIME AND JUSTICE RESEARCH INSTITUTE", which is a "desk review" that cites and reviews other research. The quote Wikipedia uses is from a paragraph on page 18:

> Thailand’s Health System Research Institute reports that children in prostitution make up 40 percent of sex workers in Thailand.

I can't find this report even though I've been using the HSRI's own searchable database[2] and search engines (you'll need Google Translate unless you can read Thai). I did, however, see see numerous other reports reusing the same quote in the searches returned by an engine, so it's well used.

If we continue the same paragraph:

> At the other end of this debate many NGOs estimate the number of CSEC victims to be in the hundreds of thousands. Other reports estimate the number of child victims of prostitution to be at least 80,000 but likely to be in the hundreds of thousands (ECPAT International; The Protection Project, 2002: 539).

I can't find any Protection Project report about Thailand in their publications[3], nor do they include Thailand in their list of country reports[4]. I also cannot be sure that either of the reports[5][6] I found on ECPAT's site are the one cited. The larger one, which was published in 2011 (but is the 2nd edition so perhaps it is from 2002) does not include the figure. It does however have this:

> Prostitution is technically illegal in Thailand, but sexual services are sold openly with an estimated 60,000 children under age 18 involved in prostitution.15

This is note 15: > U.S. Department of State, 2009 Country Report on Human Rights Practice, Thailand. Accessed on 13 July 2010 from: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/ hrrpt/2009/index.htm

This is the statement in the report[7]:

> In 2007 the government, university researchers, and NGOs estimated that there were as many as 60,000 prostitutes under age 18.

No note for that one, it's a dead end.

This doesn't mean the figure is wrong, of course, but it does support the idea that people should be able to question figures, and when challenged, claims should be backed up by something better that circular references, missing reports, and dead ends.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20070712223227if_/http://www.uni...

[2] http://kb.hsri.or.th/dspace/

[3] http://www.protectionproject.org/publications/

[4] http://www.protectionproject.org/country-reports/

[5] https://www.ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Factsheet_Th...

[6] https://www.ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/a4a_v2_eap_t...

[7] http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/index.htm

Edit: formatting, a little bit of javascript wouldn't go amiss for the comment boxes!

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by brigandish on Monday May 06, 2019 @09:17PM (#19845551)
It's nice that you made the clear distinction with the general "you" but it'd be good if you worked a bit harder to cut out the other insinuations. For example:

> At that point, it is, in fact, child rape, even if you aren't comfortable with the terminology and wish nicer language were used to describe it.

- Where did I say or imply that it wasn't child rape? - Where did I say or imply I wasn't comfortable with that terminology? - Where did I say or imply I was wishing nicer language were used to describe it?

I'm not sure how you hope to have an adult discussion on a sensitive topic if you're going to insinuate that asking you a question is tantamount to defending child rape.

I for my part have tried to find out more from someone who says they know more. I'm reading the research from one of the Wikipedia references you gave and questioning some of my assumptions while trying to remain sceptical and clear headed enough to analyse it.

> I don't feel compelled to try make it sound nicer given how damaging it can be to the child in question.

I think it's unlikely that most people in this discussion are condoning or defending this behaviour (or maybe they are but they should still get a chance to give their point and be challenged). Since we know most people will say they're for the protection of children wouldn't it be better to take them at their word, play the numbers and realise the majority here will be the same, and, if not tone down the description, tone down the attitude?

It's Hacker News, not Twitter.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by GoblinSlayer on Monday May 06, 2019 @10:00AM (#19839447)
>If you are talking prostitution, a 17 year old sex worker is highly unlikely to be there by choice.

That's true for most workers of all ages.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by DoreenMichele on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:24PM (#19841643)
The fact that some adult sex workers are also victims in no way makes child sex trafficking somehow more acceptable or justifiable to me.

From what I have read, even sex workers generally agree that most adult sex workers "made a choice" if they remain in the life and "it's different if they are underaged."

Among other things, I've read a few biographies by sex workers.

I would love to see sex work generally see an improved track record of human rights protections. In developed countries, child labor is generally deemed to be a bad thing, even when the work in question isn't inherently exploitative.

I stand by "raping children is a bad thing" and "underaged sex workers are victims of child rape."

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Tharkun on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:19PM (#19834453)
"Sex tourism" is usually implied to mean sex with people who are either underage or somehow unwilling.

Travelling abroad as a tourist for sex, with willing and legal participants, is obviously fine.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:05PM (#19834380)
Really? I think you know. I'm not going to spell it out.

Edit: fine. I guess some people here need the talk. This is about the phenomena of men traveling from rich countries to poor countries to engage in sex with children. Not this guy, but it does happen. These men often return with digital images stored on laptops and cellphones. Possession of such images is illegal in canada and so Canadian boarder services targets men who fit the profile of a potential "sex tourist". The term is a polite euphemism for a darker profile, not a literal reference to having sex while being a tourist.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by kbenson on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:23PM (#19834475)
That's not a useful reply. People travel to countries where prostitution is legal for that purpose, and so someone who doesn't necessarily know the extra connotations that phrase carries for you.

I for one did not immediately equate sex tourism with child slavery or pedophilia until I saw your sibling comment.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Fogest on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:23PM (#19834468)
They may be referring to the legal aspect, that it does not mean they are a criminal. It is more of a rightly so frowned upon moral issue, but legally is usually okay.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ChrisClark on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:12PM (#19834421)
Yikes. In case you're serious, it's the slavery, and children.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by derefr on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:21PM (#19834464)
I think you’re thinking of sex trafficking. The John being a tourist is orthogonal to the prostitute being a victim of trafficking. Many sex tourists visit Germany, for example, where prostitution is a safe, unionized profession.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ChrisClark on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:01PM (#19835037)
Yeah, I'm not talking about Germany. We're talking about why border patrol might investigate something.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by kzrdude on Monday May 06, 2019 @11:22AM (#19840222)
Highly naive picture of germanys pragmatic situation - basically nobody is registered much less unionized and trafficking is everywhere.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by eecc on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:45PM (#19834592)
It's still a dragnet. They're not SWATing a semiautomatic rifle up your nose - nobody's claiming they're not polite - but the fact remains.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by bdowling on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:34PM (#19836213)
Police generally have access to full-automatic machine guns. They’re not limited to the semi-automatic models sometimes available to civilians (e.g. in the US).
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:21AM (#19836850)
US cops. Canadian cops dont carry full auto often, and when they do it is never used. It goes against rcmp training. I cannot think of any canadian examples of cops using full auto.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sandworm101 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:44PM (#19835278)
Dragnets tend to catch more people. This is less than 1% of 1% of travelers. It is a very limited program.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ddalex on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:03PM (#19835635)
> other less-pubic successes

Freudian slip right there if I've ever seen one