I think if the gov't was a bit more efficient and could be shown to be good stewards of money I'd probably hate paying taxes a lot less.
I guess it's fine to hate your government, but a better solution is to change it than avoid paying tax. Because if people pay less tax then then the poor and vulnerable will be affected first, not the corrupted interest group.
While whinging about taxes is a national pastime here in the US, we have one of the highest tax compliance rates in the world. These might be related. And it's not true that you can make taxes go away with accounting magic, although there seems to be a growing sentiment that "the other guy is doing it". Example: Bourdain's comment about avoiding taxes by living abroad is nonsense.
Those "transparency indexes" tend to reflect the biases (cultural and political) and the interests of the major contributors to the organizations that produce them (including organizations like OECD).
And unlike measurable data, where you can double check, here you have to agree not just on the methodology, but on the validity of various sources, self-reporting (which is often used as a proxy), etc.
The GINI coefficient may be a better proxy than those targeted measurements.
You are right: It's not proof that it can't work. However, despite extensive attempts, we also have no proof that it works, and plenty of proof that government welfare systems work far better than the charitable solutions that preceded them.
Governments do that all the time. Look at the shitty schools we in USA force poor black kids to attend. It's easy to be confused by all the demonization and expectation-lowering we get from the media, if one pays attention to that shit. The end result is the same: if we changed public education at all, we might possibly inconvenience some suburbanites, therefore it's most efficient to just screw minorities and the poor as we have for decades.
[1] http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2011/09/20/medicare-is-more-ef...
Did they really, though? "Have to be" bailed out I mean. They were bailed out, yes, but... just as a thought experiment... perhaps we should have let them go under?
Edit:
Going bankrupt implies either mismanagement, failure to lower cost and increase margins, or the market does not value their service.
If it is the first two, going bankrupt will potentially allow them to sell off their assets to new management who might do a better job. If it is the last one, then they should be shut down.
All the government bailing them out does is prop up bad management and artificially lower prices at the expense of the tax payer having to pay them on the other end. (me paying for half empty train cars even though I haven't ridden a train in years)
Often they weren't bailed out; often their shareholders lost everything or very nearly. Nationalization was more akin to the government picking up the assets in a bankruptcy auction.
So no, it's not a straw man. Some conservatives really do believe this.
Weak man vs. straw man.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...
A handful of extremists are not representative.
AFR were extremists a couple years ago, sure, but the Overton Window recently shifted. You may have noticed.
Here's an example of actual government waste. The ACA provides subsidies for low-deductible health insurance. Those plans are less efficient than high-deductible plans because the plans cost more (to the government and the patient), and because the act of laundering the cost of routine care through an insurance company causes healthcare costs to increase because insurance companies are less price sensitive than patients.
The government does this out of regulatory capture. Health insurance companies don't want people using less expensive plans and health provider companies don't want patients to be price sensitive.
Do you disagree with that? If so we can have a discussion. There is no discussion to be had about whether there should be public roads.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund
* https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-...
I don't think one or the other is strictly better. You point at corruption and waste wherever you find it, then you work to make it less.
- You at least have more than one choice. If the charity you give to performs poorly by whatever metrics you value, you can give to another one next time.
- It is voluntary. Nobody with guns will put you in a cage if you don't donate to a charity, as is the case if you don't pay your taxes.
And there's the rub. You don't, and won't, have that information.
To my knowledge there's one single solitary charity that provides adequate metrics to donors to support this kind of decision and for them it's on principle rather than to open up the market.
Charities as a whole are simply not incentivised to share this kind of information because they compete for funds based on marketing, not efficiency, and there is currently no mechanism to change that.
Yes, there are organisations that audit charities in small numbers and put them on approved lists, but you're still only getting a fading rubber stamp.
> It is voluntary...
He said, casually cutting the funds available for public infrastructure, welfare, health, education and the military by a couple of orders of magnitude.
With charities you can always make your own. Don't have that option in your system.
I'm not American, but aren't some taxes that go to education/welfare/healthcare on a federal level? If so, are you going to tell people to leave the country? It's very expensive and for many practically impossible.
Besides, is the goal not here to spend the money as efficiently as possible? In that case we need as much competition and experimentation as possible. Something I think is achieved to a much higher degree with my system than yours.
Also, your suggestion still doesn't make it voluntary. In my system someone can not donate to charity, but use their money for something else. Charities are not the only way to help the worse off.
Private charities come nowhere near modern government levels of welfare, and never have (that's why we have modern levels of welfare).
It's not as if with government we have more money. So all that matters is efficiency and if a charity is more efficient than a government, why is there no state where you can choose whom to give (at least part of) your taxes?
The fallacy is in imagining it is meaningful to separate money (earned or otherwise) from the system of government it was generated in. Your ability to "earn the money" is fundamentally tied to this system, and if you change one, you change the other necessarily (not a comment on the direction of the delta). Thinking about the economy as a thing that exists on its own, and the government as an institution that just "takes away" from this is just nonsensical.
The statement "It's not as if with government we have more money" is quite likely a category error. After all the ideas of money and the ideas of government are so deeply intertwined in their evolution that people haven't managed to separate them, ahistorical thought experiments in common introductory economics notwithstanding.
For what it's worth, I am sympathetic to some of the arguments you are heading towards, I just object to the sloppy thinking variants of them - which are the most common, unfortunately.
You don't even have to look at history, you can look around the world today with failed states and black markets. Wherever there are people there is economic activity ("earn money"). If there is no state, groups and individuals take upon themselves those roles which the state has monopoly in most places: protection of private property and dispute resolution. These two things are the most vital ingredients for economic activity.
> After all the ideas of money and the ideas of government are so deeply intertwined in their evolution that people haven't managed to separate them
You're just making an unfounded assertion. Many people separate economy and state, for good reason. Money have existed and exist today (cryptocurrencies for one example) irrespective of government.
[edit: I had a longer response but realize it opened up a bunch of side issues that weren't helpful]
The economy and the system of government it operates in (yes, including black/grey markets) are fundamentally intertwined in ways that make it hard to reason about separately.
What I'm objecting to are statements that boil down to: "If we all paid X less tax I would have X more dollars which we could do as we please with". In general this is hopelessly naive.
For what it is worth, both your examples of failed states and cryptocurrrencies (which do not, yet?, operate as currencies) support exactly what I am talking about, not the converse.
The attempt to divide an conquer in thinking about economies and government is useful but so far not completely successful. When it leads to people making silly inferences, it is problematic. So yes people talk about them as if they were separate, because it is easier. But that is not the same as having separated them.
Furthermore, the idea that private charity is inherently more efficient than government is far from self-evident. A basic income policy, for example, could be a far more comprehensive and efficient way of directly addressing poverty than a patchwork of charities targeted specific symptoms of poverty. This is one reason that many pragmatic libertarians are actually favorable toward basic income.
Many states have tax deductions on charitable donations. They're mostly used by wealthy people to shirk their taxes by "donating" to a "charity" that serves their own interests (e.g. "donating" a valuable painting to an "art museum" they establish next door to their house, open only by appointment with them).
Neither does the government, if you measure it that way.
The amount of government money that goes to the homeless or the bottom 5% is fairly modest, because they aren't a large percentage of the population.
Most actual government "welfare" spending is the government taking $5000 from you in taxes and then offering you the $5000 back but only if you submit to their conditions on how to spend it.
By the way, no, the goal here is not to spend the money as efficiently as possible. The primary goal is to succeed at something that is known to improve society as a whole and, perhaps, will allow that society to produce goods better and more effectively. The secondary goal is to do so as efficiently as possible. This is why you don't find much support in countries with nationalized healthcare for abolishing nationalized healthcare; instead, the support is for reforming it or making it more efficient or less corrupt or what have you. The primary goal met, it's on to the secondary goal. Before government was used as a vehicle for achieving many of these things, they simply weren't an option for most.
Government is where we come together as a people and say "yes, this is the cost that we have decided is worth paying in order to have the society that we want". That encompasses both sides---taxes ("what is worth paying") and policy ("how we achieve the society that we want"). Let's grant that there might be less competition and less efficiency (arguable), but there is greater universality, and I would say there are goals where that universality is far more important than the tradeoffs.
In this way, it is the largest form of organized labor. When something is decried for 'inefficiency' we should examine what we are trying to do efficiently. For example, reducing costs of health care by negotiating drug price ceilings as a group in UK/Canada compared to much higher US drug prices as a result of rejecting these policies due to perceived inefficiency. This perception is ideological, in the mind of many Americans market equillibrium is always the most efficient pricing, this measure of efficiency is not related to the amount of healthcare delivered per dollar spent.
The "market is efficient" assumption is voided by the bastardized healthcare system in the US.
In theory the reason we have drug patents is that if you create an important drug, you get a temporary monopoly that you can use to make a lot of money, so people will have the incentive to create important drugs.
The benefit is supposed to be that the market sets the price. Until the patent expires, you pay exactly as much as the drug is worth, no less and no more.
But if the government (or even a large enough insurance company) is paying then there is no market, the buyer has pricing power. The only way the patent system produces the efficiency it's supposed to is if the patient pays for the drugs. Without that you might as well get rid of drug patents and just use tax money to fund drug research directly.
But if you talk about either getting rid of prescription drug coverage or getting rid of drug patents, politics enters and we get the inefficient catastrophe we have.
You can vote out your government.
Charities seem more PR-focused, and the press seems less interested in holding them to account. I have a lot more faith in government to spend money effectively than I do in private charity.
It's exceedingly hard to end an entitlement even if it's clear it doesn't work.
[0] https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/opre/executive_s...
I guess I'm saying I don't mind paying taxes.
I consider the tax rate when choosing how much to charge my customers. I'm sure you do the same when choosing a job. If you paid less in tax, you'd earn less money. Obviously not at a 1:1 ratio, but it's something to keep in mind.
The efficient ones have been the smaller companies in everything from decision making to process. The gov department and large corp are Kafkaesque nightmares where getting an account is a 3 page form and a 5 day SLA.
At the medical startup I was given a laptop and asked for a PR by the end of the day, at the large corp I didn't get a laptop for a week and even then I didn't get logins (yes, logins...) to the code repo for another week.
Governments are inefficent because they are made up of lots and lots of people, same as large companies. Everything needs to be triple checked, rubber stamped and have all people in the chain cover their asses because if anything goes wrong it's very important not to be anyone's fault (but it's definitely someone's fault. This isn't a blame free post mortem here!)
Wait, what? No charities exist that create these organizations? Oh darn, hoist on the reality petard, whatever will we do? Pay taxes you say?! But no, let's just have smaller government! Nevermind that we will have children with lead poisoning, plant workers with cancers, or zero safety net for the elderly, working poor, or disabled. At least I won't be paying taxes!
People are tired of paying for things that they don't agree with. I can't say that I blame them too much.
Americans always say this.
It's still a lot of money but nowhere near what you're implying.
Charities and private businesses actually succumb to corruption, inefficiency, and outright fraud pretty often. How much research do you perform on your charitable contributions versus your taxes? Do you know, off the top of your head, how many cents on the dollar actually support the cause of your favorite charity, and how many are "wasted" on administration?
For in the current system, you broadly have the choice of:
1. Wasting your money on exotic weaponry and wars of expansion whilst starving the populace and enabling a small subpopulation of rich cheaters to dodge their fair societal debt
2. Wasting money on enabling social programs that allow a large subpopulation of poor cheaters to dodge their fair share of societal debt and hinder the rich from buying a second yacht.
I believe South Park refers to this as "Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich."
Sadly, in both cases, the upper middle class ends up footing most of the bill.
The past 2 months have illustrated the sort of alternative that can actually get elected here. Do you find this encouraging? I don't.
Go to a 3rd world country and you'll understand what government corruption and waste is.
Or, to quote some famous dead dude: "The World Is a Book and Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only One Page" - St Augustine
Or, to quote Anthony Bourdain himself: “Travel changes you. As you move through this life and this world you change things slightly, you leave marks behind, however small. And in return, life—and travel—leaves marks on you.”
If I say "boy I'm tired today, I only slept 4 hours" and you say "you're tired? I didn't sleep at all!", your being more tired doesn't make me any less tired.
In the same regard, other governments doing a much worse job than the US government doesn't mean that the US government is doing the best job that it can.
But, by all means, go get some billionaire to buy you an island or build one for you to test out your ideal black spherical cow ideas for government. The US itself was once a crazy experiment in cutting edge governing theory itself.
(1) We're not the best, but we are in the top 10% here, no? But I note that everyone who beats us has much smaller populations to satisfy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
The feeling I got after listening to her discuss the obviously broken system for creating of procuring government technology is that people are earnestly trying to produce quality tools, but are forced into ridiculously slow improvement schedules due to the procurement standards and laws.
It talk includes, of course, a call to arms for tech workers to invest in their government by doing a term of service, fixing government by improving its tools.
A few years ago, I wish I still had the link, I read an article detailing exactly that topic and the gist of it pretty much boiled down to: What the US lacks in "welfare state" it makes up trough donations to charities by private citizens, one of the major differences between Europe and the US.
As nice as that might sound, it's also an incentive for the government to keep on cutting spending on social welfare as it assumes the private donations to charities are gonna make up for the difference.
The amount of waste, corruption and poor planning by the gov't [..]
Governments aren't the most efficient organisations around. But Western governments certainly aren't the worst either.
Yeah, but companies waste their own money. Not mine. Unless I'm a shareholder, I could care less if they flushed cash down the toilet.
They did this to tick a box for promotion to the next level - not the best use of the share holders money
[Citation needed.]
I think there's an important distinction to be made between two different sorts of "high taxes".
One is a high absolute amount of taxes - you made millions of dollars in a year and therefore your absolute tax payment is relatively quite high.
The other is a high percentage tax rate.
I don't mind paying a high absolute rate of taxes - I think that is the scenario in which one can think fondly of all the things that government provides - things like:
"It's a repayment for all those years I was poor and the government paid for me to live and go to school."
However, there comes a point in percentage tax rates where basic fairness comes into question. I'm sure it varies from person to person, but I think an effective tax rate north of 40% is getting in the danger zone.
As a US citizen who lives in California, in Marin, and owns land, my effective tax rate is 50%, give or take, and I think that's a problem. It's very difficult to rationalize that every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government.
How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you? From the opportunities you had as a young person, and those of your children, to the safety and security of your adult life.
Half of your product is yours to spend freely, the rest goes towards the idea that you don't even have to think about mashlovs piramid. Well in a perfect euro-socialist utopia maybe, perhaps not in the U.S., but that's the general idea of high taxes.
And let's just say another 25% is misspent. In a country this big and bloated, that's also likely a low ball figure. But overall, only 50% of taxpayer money is going to anything remotely properly executed and needed.
That said, our public schools suck, we invest nothing in research, we don't provide healthcare until your old, and our interstate highways were built 70 years ago, and state and local governments handle needed construction now, yet they take the smallest percentage of our taxes. Some states like Nevada don't even charge state income tax.
In my view I'd be way happier paying taxes if this was managed right. That means cut military spending by 90% knowing we are never going to need an aircraft carrier again while completely evacuating the Middle East, and the state local government's charge more since they will be more effective at putting it to use.
Taxes should be no more than 30% total (federal, state + local) like the Apple App Store.
Yea, likely not happening any time soon. But that's what is correct imho.
I would suggest trying it sometime. Look at the US government budget, and try to cut out 25% of it. It is a lot harder than just getting rid of "bloat".
I can believe that some people might be able to find 25% that they personally don't care about. Maybe you don't drive, so (you think) you don't care about highways. Or, you're not poor, so you don't care about medicaid. And so on. But could you cut 25% of the federal budget without causing a large fraction of the American populace to become very, very angry (and vote you out of office, git reset --hard your budget in two years, etc)?
I don't mean to say that the government could not be more efficient. It certainly could. But 25% of the budget is a lot of money, and not everyone has the same priorities as you.
Don't forget we build highways with the wrong material which causes a cheaper initial cost and higher future cost. (Concrete rather than asphalt)
Paying high taxes makes more sense if debt service was rather trivial.
I don't disagree with your point (about wasteful spending on the military), but your number is substantially inflated and you're wrong on the financial conclusion.
The federal + state spending is $6.x trillion, soon to be $7 trillion. Closer to 10% of tax payer money is going to the military + intelligence. Federal debt service is closer to 5%-6% of the US Government's revenue year to year; less than half of that net cost is due to war.
Entitlements are by far the largest budget problem the US has, there isn't anything else even remotely close at this point. Within ten years those entitlements will balloon the US budget deficit back above $1 trillion, the military spending increases - which I disagree with - are comical next to the entitlement costs inbound. Unless you're planning to abolish the entire US military, you're not going to be able to financially resolve the truly epic entitlements funding shortfall just through military reduction. Even slashing the US military in half won't come close to fixing the problem (~$300 billion versus an inbound $1 trillion annual entitlement shortfall).
...a quick search shows this article saying 16% is going to defense:
http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-wh...
I also read recently something to the tune of: 70% of our national debt comes from military related expenditures from the 2 Bush presidents, and by 2020 interest payments will go from 5/6% to 10/12%. What about the principal? When does that get factored in?
I admit I'm not an expert on these matters (as i chose to focus on what i can change). However, there does seem like there are various discrepancies here--so what if the number is closer to 18% vs. 25% or 12.5%. It's way way way too much and would make a difference--more importantly in the lives and hatred abroad we would be sparing. We didn't fix or help anything in Vietnam and no matter what they say, we haven't in Iraq or the Middle East--our selfish financial losses aside.
However, now imagine instead of taking out credit for those wars, we invested. That would be paying major dividends that would further counteract these numbers. Now imagine we invested in ourselves (not just financial instruments)--the potential is far higher.
Military spending without a doubt has put a damper on our progress and perhaps the sole reason America may never reach the potential it once had. America was never great--rather, it had potential to be great. Now it's mediocre, and other countries are eating our lunch, and rightfully so. Not that the world is zero sum--but we'd stand to benefit from taking a page from their playbook (e.g. nordic countries, etc). We have shitty education. We are well on our way to becoming idiocracy. We unfairly lock up way too many people for far too long in shitty prison conditions (and then let corporations exploit them for cheap labor!). We have plenty of money but we spend $11 Billion on the Airforce One and Marine One fleet. That would put $33 in every american's pocket. Our expenditures from the Middle East since 9/11 would put like $30k in each american's pocket. If that was $5k over 6 years, that's life-changing money for half of america. ..This country is just ridiculous. Paying 50% of your earnings as taxes in California is absurd. It's a crime. There's no point owning (why pay that 1% property tax), there's no point making lots of money. Just rent, make far less, and work way less hard--what sort of incentive is that! That said we have a problem of working too hard and too much in this country (at least for people of a certain class)--so from that perspective perhaps it's a good thing. I rather make whatever that sweetspot income is from a taxation point of view ($75k?), rent, not try to make billions from my startup and live a simple life.
And yes, we should cut 90% of our military. Instead, we maintain an arsenal of super modern nukes and a small extremely efficient elite navy-seals-like task force. + Yes, the best cyber-security outfit on the planet (while somehow keeping surveillance on citizens to a minimum). But fire most people in camouflage uniform.
Gun-to-your-head "peace" is not peace. There is no world peace. This "peace" we have enforced will not less forever. As soon as china knows they can beat us they will make us pay for our sins in one way or another. We need to become more cooperative now and show the world how to act NOW while we're on top, cuz once we're not we won't be able to set such examples. We aren't cooperative. We are forceful. Again, it's gun-to-your-head peace. The lessons of history clearly indicate to me that it's a recipe for disaster as those hungry come up from behind you and use the ugly strategies they learned from you against you. These are basically life laws we're talking about here. So we aren't setting a good example. We haven't created true peace. It's temporary peace. And things could get catastrophic unless America completely changes its ways. I'm not even saying gun-to-your-head "peace" wasn't needed to get to this point, i.e. the most peaceful point in human history. I'm saying it's run its course, and if we continue to operate that way, we'll regress--and regress bad!
So why not save some money (AND SOME LIVES) and show some real leadership. Real leadership is about taking risks. Risks and faith are what it's all about. As powerful as the US is, it has an opportunity to set that stage. That would be the turning point in human history that civilization has been looking for. It's the next evolution. We have that opportunity right now. We are on the precipice of a turning point while things are still relatively stable. Cut the military, we don't need it. Save us some dollars and focus on education.
I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I do.
Please don't deploy the "I'm arguing with the anti-tax guy" toolkit here - I am not that guy.
The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction:
30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly.
YMMV.
But why? I mean, are you just rationalizing? "I think 50% taxes is a lot just because I do, therefore I think it's bad policy." Or is there a logical reason that 50% is "a bit silly" but, say, 30% (or whatever your number is) is fine?
This is something that Nobel prize-winning economists fight over -- exactly how high a tax rate is too high? -- so I kind of doubt we're going to resolve it here on HN. My point is that we all have feelings ("I don't like the color mauve", "50% taxes rubs me the wrong way"), but these have to be separate from motives for enacting policy.
And when you factor in other taxes, you pay more than 50%, it's too much.
And if I choose not to pay those taxes, my freedom is taken away, so don't tell me the slave point is invalid.
No one getting taxed at an effective 50% tax rate in the United States is anywhere near a slave. The minimum wage McDonald's worker with a 15% tax rate is the slave.
There isn't a rational difference between 30 and 50, the only difference is "I feel that it is too much", right?
50% is 84 hours/week, we as a society have already deemed the difference between those to be significant enough to fight about.
The difference between 50% of your income and 30% of your income is significant.
No, I don't think I am rationalizing or being irrational.
Note: I don't make any claims to know what the right overall tax rate is - if you're asking me about 32% vs. 38% vs. 29% ... I am as lost as you, and those economists, are.
However I think that 1/2 is not an arbitrary point on that scale - I think there is a qualitative difference between more than one half and less than one half.
If I am assessed more than one half of what I earn, that's unfair in a way that I believe appeals to innate concepts of fairness that we all share, rather than "I just don't like that number".
10% will be enough in the future, except for those countries in war, like US always will be.
Great chart in here about USA tax burden being below average: https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2...
You are entitled of what you've done, period.
Anything above 10% is theft.
"Times of higher tax burden have been economically more productive" -> this is just false, a falacy. Prove it somehow.
Sweden was a very rich nation before high taxes, now it's just rich, net jobs after high taxation in 50 years is ZERO. They are just letting go now, cutting taxes more and more.
I wonder why US economy is booming right now, maybe because Trump is going to cut taxes?!
Oops...
Capitalism is a system, like any other, created by humans and not found in nature. "Ownership" is not some property of matter; what it means to own something is that there is a legal system that supports that deed and an armed police and military to enforce it. There is no concept of ownership except for a truly anarchic "everything I own is in a box that I have the key to" idea that does not require other people to guarantee your property rights.
You never know. You don't know if it was only 10%, he could use those 40% much better than the "government", oh hell, be damn sure he would.
He could create companies, could fund companies, could put this money in funds, those funds would have to fund companies to earn money, these would generate jobs, education, etc.
Almost all wealthy people just invest their money in stocks, hedge funds, VCs, and other intangible assets that don't immediately produce a noticeable economic impact, aside from a rise in the stock market.
If he pays 50% because he wants, OK.
But he is FORCED to pay.
This is confiscatory payment, it's theft.
Opportunities as a young person costs 50% of what he makes?! Please don't pretend to be naive.
I thought it was common sense by now that this tax money goes to highly payed politicians, corruption, bad public administration, bad public programs, lazy people, etc.
A 10% tax should be the maximum a citizen should pay in any country.
And it will be in the future, distant future, but you can be damn sure that it will be.
See people cheering the cutting of funding for Meals on Wheels make me want to vomit.
Sure, if by "establishing the world around you" means government spending on fighting climate change, supporting clean energy initiatives and helping the underserved people instead of spending on wars, on weapons; AND everyone pays the same rate including our current president, then YES!
I'm perfectly happy to pay more than most to support others, because I make more than most in income. I can't honestly say that in my day-to-day life I work harder than the person delivering the mail, or someone unloading crates. I was given the advantage of good and cheap education and a safe environment to grow up in (Marin) due in part to high taxes on the wealthy. I feel it's important to do what I can to return the favor.
I also strongly believe that those above a certain threshold of wealth, especially those who hoard that wealth, are doing damage to the economy through income inequality. If taxes are the means to undo some of that damage then again, I'm happy to contribute.
During my 60 minutes of work I was able to: breath clean air, have potable water, be surrounded by an orderly society, and in the event of danger have access to emergency services.
Also, you got to enjoy having a basic pension after retirement, as well as free healthcare for the elderly and poor. Who wants to live in a country with a bunch of poor and old sick people who can't afford food and healthcare? That sounds depressing as hell.
The amount of money you need to live on decreases relative to your income, as your income goes up. A wealthy person doesn't contribute 30%+ of their monthly income to housing, typically, nor could they come anywhere near spending that amount on food. But a poor family of 4 certainly could.
You believe in getting other people money in a forced manner and put in what YOU believe is better.
Do you honestly believe that taxation is theft? It's existed as a fundamental requirement of civilization for millennia.
Utopian libertarianism is utterly unrealistic. For a philosophy that is wholly meritocratic, you would think the fact that no civilization adopted it as a fundamental principle would make it obvious how infeasible the concept is.
Exactly.
Or are you including payroll "taxes" (social security, medicare), sales taxes etc also?
IIUC, if you add up health insurance premiums (employer share + employee share) + all income taxes + all payroll taxes of US and compare it to the same quantity of other DEVELOPED countries, the tax burden on the US is not unreasonably high.
Keeping a developed country developed is hard/expensive. :)
I think it varies mostly depending on the services you get for it and the percieved values of it. If you get higher education, healthcare and very social safety net possible then you tolerate a higher tax level, presumably.
If the tax is percieved as being spent on things you don't agree with (some random war etc) then it's harder to accept.
> It's very difficult to rationalize that every 60 minutes I work, ~30 minutes of that work product is appropriated by government.
If you consider that money to be appropriated then obviously there is a political problem. The money isn't spent on the services you need or want, or it's (seems to you at least) a lot of it is wasted. But there is no point discussing an absolute limit of fairness without discussing which tax paid services you would like to cut in order to lower taxes. Taxes could be 90% or 99% and there would be nothing inherently unfair about it - it would just proably be a very inefficient society.
For this to be true, your income must be in the realm of $10 Million / year. If that's the case, congratulations—that is phenomenal. But pardon me for not crying you a river ;-)
No, the threshold is lower than that.
Of course I don't count assessed property tax, since that is based on assets, not income.
But I do count parcel taxes[1] which occur per-parcel, regardless of value. USA + CA + Marin County.
Note, I am not losing sleep over any of this and I don't identify myself as anti-tax, by any means. I just think it's worth considering that a qualitative change in taxation has occurred once you go north of the 40% number.
At some point in running your own business you realize that large portions of the tax code exist to throttle back the rate of growth of smaller companies while giving away money (tax breaks etc.) to large behemoths.
It feels like there is a huge amount of money lost on inefficient markets and efforts.
It's a feeling. But is it reality? That's a question for spreadsheets and numbers, not our feelings.
Are there countries that are 25% more efficient in government spending than the US? If so, how do they do it?
(Yes, tax evaders get off too easy with this system)
In the monetary policy environment we live in, having debt is the most sensible way to build wealth.
Dollars are a terrible store of value. Dollars invested in a savings account are almost as bad. Securities, real estate, and inventory are much better. Dollars invested in education and advertising to multiply the value of securities, real estate and inventory are still way better than a savings account.
In an environment where a savings account pays <1% and collateralized debt costs 1-8% and non-collaterlized debt costs 10-20%, the sensible thing is to borrow as much as you can and invest it wisely.
In such an environment, I'd be proudest paying cap gains tax at 15% than income tax updwards of 25%.
Using debt to generate income = good. Using debt to buy stuff you can't afford = bad.
The first pays itself back while the latter does not.
When somebody like Dave Ramsey is talking about debt, he's talking about paying off credit card bills, car loans, student loans, mortgages - payments that you're making that leave you personally saddled. Increasing your cash flow by decreasing your expenses.
When somebody like the Robert Kiyosaki (Rich Dad, Poor Dad) talks about debt he's talking about it in the context that you are: using debt to create an income generating asset, leveraging the tax advantage to increase cash flow and holding the asset as more valuable because held cash would simply result in devaluation through inflation. Increasing your cash flow by generating more cash flow.
Headlines should really start trying to clarify Bad debt vs Good debt.
Productive debt helps you make money. For someone starting out, that might be a modest car loan to get to work.
Unproductive debt just helps you consume. Once your car is past the basic point-A to point-B automobile, a loan to but it is unproductive debt.
>Myth: Debt is a tool and should be used to help create prosperity. >Truth: Debt isn’t used by wealthy people nearly as much as we are led to believe.
With the exception of buying your house. But then only if you 20% down and 15-yr mortgage.
And, let's face it, for the demographic he is targeting that's great advice. Most got into their situation due to poor handling of debt.
However, the vast majority of other financial advisers in the world, and economists, agree that with good management debt can be very beneficial. Dave Ramsey is not the Financial God. He has a very simplified, easy-to-follow program designed for a specific set of individuals. And, honestly, the majority of people would do well to follow it to the letter. But that doesn't mean EVERYONE should for EVERY situation.
Having tons of money is pointless if you don't eventually spend it on improving your life or the world around you. Obviously blowing all of your cash on frivolity is also bad, but you need to strike a balance or you will end up being Ebenezer Scrooge, a miserable old rich guy with nothing to show for his life but big numbers on a piece of paper somewhere.
One debt increases your annual revenue for as long as you own it, the other increases your annual car expense as long as you own it (decreaing your revenue).
After all, if you take pride in fresh new road surfaces and good schools, you also have to take some responsibility for our foreign policy.
It is frustrating to pay taxes to a in debt state and a in debt country.
To the people saying that debt is not so bad, please realize that you get that debt from a private institution that subsequently collects interest. Said institution does not have to work for this interest, it merely has to sign your debt into existence. The monetary system we have now, where money is always created as debt by a group of elites with specials rights is not fair.
Anyone can feel free to answer this one. I'm interested in where people are drawing their own lines.
This is true in terms of "where your tax dollars go," but you can certainly draw your own lines in regards to your opinion. The latter is what I'm discussing.
Pretty sure we tried that with the Articles of Confederation and it was a total failure.
Spoken like someone who wasn't on the receiving end of bombs, troops, torture, imprisonment, or theft to enrich the already rich - you know, the bulk of government spending.
I pay my taxes in order to avoid being a victim of state violence, but when I do, I say a prayer for the victims of my failure to be strong enough to do the right thing, which is to deprive the state of the means to do evil.
Not to mention an investment in the costs you'll impose upon the state in your dotage.
there are those who don't know how much they pay, they just know what they take home
there are those who know their income tax, medical, etc, deductions are
and then there are those who see other avenue of taxation that effects the price of goods and services we make use of
I have no problem paying my taxes but why would be happy about it when I cannot recall a single government out there that is using them responsibly?
How refreshing.
I agree with him.
Paying my taxes is a point of pride for me. It's a repayment for all those years I was poor and the government paid for me to live and go to school.