News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by addicted on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:06PM (#43311132)
How can any reasonable national leader justify building their military on American systems anymore?

Especially now that the U.S. government is also talking about not living up to its NATO obligations.

This is not gonna hurt the rest of the world. Defense is where the U.S. exports a lot. So cutting back on U.S. weaponry will only help other nations.

The same is true of Tech. Currently the tech industry is global, but expect it to become increasingly national. Considering this is one of the biggest and fastest growing industries in the U.S. and one of its biggest exports, again, this is only gonna hurt thenUS economy.

And the US’s dominance in this space is so high the rest of the world will simply push for open source at no loss to their own economies, since it’s only the US’s profit making will be hurt.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:16PM (#43311256)
risk of war going hot aside, the long term effect of this is fantastic for the rest of the world's industries

AWS, GCP and Azure looked unbeatable a month ago

but today, if you're a government official in the UK, Poland or Germany, would you be recommending AWS as your cloud provider?

absolutely not

they now have massive geopolitical risks associated with them due to being under the control of the increasingly unstable and authoritarian US regime that will sacrifice 80 years of foreign policy and soft power for a soundbite on fox news

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ramoz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:59PM (#43311814)
> if you're a government official in the UK, Poland or Germany, would you be recommending AWS as your cloud provider?

They don't. Sovereign cloud in EU has been progressing for a few years now.

Such that some of your mentioned "unbeatable" hyperscalers have already been positioning (e.g. ceasable infrastructure), and some interesting new players on the block. As well as old benefiting from the related market positions: https://www.oracle.com/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:07PM (#43311912)
the "sovereign" label from Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle was always a lie, for auditors check boxes

they are not sovereign because they're running software developed by a company liable to coercion by the regime

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Sammi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:32PM (#43312792)
US companies are required by US law to disclose data to US authorities when requested - no matter where in the world they operate.

Doesn't matter if it is a EU subsidiary. The US parent company must abide by US law and give US authorities the data.

EU citizens cannot trust their data in the hands of US companies. No matter if it is on servers in Europe hosted by European subsidiaries.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:45PM (#43313592)
The way they are doing it is entirely air gapped systems, run by totally independent companies (not subsidiaries, totally separate legal entities owned and run by other people) that are effectively licensing the software.

So the US legal system can say "give us this data" but they don't have access as they are on another company's servers in another company's data center operated by another company's staff.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:00PM (#43313758)
> So the US legal system can say "give us this data" but they don't have access as they are on another company's servers in another company's data center operated by another company's staff.

US institutions don't hesitate to demand their companies to implement secret backdoors in their hardware or software, as evidenced by Snowden's leaks (for Cisco routers) and the Lavabit shutdown (mail company ordered to implement a tap on their clients' data).

Sure, you can have all you described, but how are updates vetted?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Monday March 10, 2025 @07:23AM (#43319270)
Yeah it is a risk, but so is it a risk for anything. Can you really trust the CPU, RAM, BIOS, USB-C cable etc on your desk? Maybe those have backdoors too?

But that is adversarial and is to be expected.

At least for these sort of cooperative partnerships that I am aware of in enterprise, there are typically provisions in contracts for code-access, verifiable builds, ability to reject updates and so on and so on. I don't know if these provisions exist in the sovereign cloud contracts that the cloud companies are building, but I would be really surprised if they went to all this trouble replicating Azure/GCP/etc in entirely air-gapped data centers with duplicated staff and hardware and all that, but don't bother to vet the code they get!

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sebazzz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:23PM (#43314019)
If that is the case, how can I manage my EU Azure instances via the regular Azure Portal, yet US-Microsoft not having any access?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Monday March 10, 2025 @07:17AM (#43319218)
I think just having servers in an azure data center in the EU is different from proper sovereignty products.

These sovereignty products I don't think are just a check-box you can tick to get it, they're separate things and probably cost the earth too.

Only officially public one that I know of: e.g. https://www.s3ns.io/en (but I hear whispers of others)

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rurban on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:38AM (#43317305)
The US state just ask the UK GHCQ to get the data to them instead. That's what they already do for decades, and likewise the GHCQ gets the US data. Under the national security umbrella, so they'll deny any data exchanges. With Germany the figure is known to be 10%. With the UK the figure is 100%.

The EU should really fight these illegal circumventions

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by formerly_proven on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:46PM (#43312973)
Yeah it's a 100% checkbox exercise explicitly designed to only satisfy the letter of the law.

Unfortunately critical infrastructure providers flock to that, though there are some exceptions.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sudoshred on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:34PM (#43313469)
Disagree, location matters. It should be technically feasible to implement a code freeze (in software, or hardware) in a sovereign system when external partners’ motives become questionable. That being said in all likelihood that capability is cost prohibitive (speculation), but still co-location is a pre-requisite.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bakuninsbart on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:28PM (#43313408)
Cloud is going be far easier to transition for most companies compared to Office, Browsers, OS and Hardware. There are basically no non-american competitors, and so many companies deeply relying on the tech don't have the IT capacity to implement something OSS like Linux.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whymeogod on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:47PM (#43313615)
Yes, but if the government were to spend say 10% of their GPD on defense and infrastructure (Hi, German!), some of this spending might be in grants/tax breaks to help companies make this transition.

I think you underestimate what a capitalist system can accomplish, and how quickly.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by matt-p on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:07PM (#43315344)
"Sovereign cloud" is AWS/G-Cloud/Oracle/Azure, but promising to put your data in London if you're the British state, or Frankfurt if you're German and so on...

It's a cute little badge that does very very little to address the real concerns.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by hnaccount_rng on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:00PM (#43313125)
One would guess. But at least German's cyber security agency.. Well, if you read German: https://www.heise.de/news/Google-und-BSI-arbeiten-an-sichere...
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:01PM (#43312449)
It isn't fantastic on net, although it could be a net benefit for those industries that compete directly with (former?) American strengths. The other industries will no longer benefit from the highly competitive offerings of US cloud providers, which are for now, better and cheaper than the alternatives.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by marcuschong on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:58PM (#43312419)
Even I, the founder of a small startup outside the US, caught myself considering things I never would have before.

Just last month, I had to change my dedicated server provider and was genuinely concerned about hosting my websites on US-based entities. Would Trump impose a tariff to antagonize my country and president? I don't have the resources to keep changing providers and migrating my services.

I ended up hosting locally.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sidibe on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311829)
This has been slowly coming so now they are offering the entire data center stack to be operated by European companies in European owned datacenters
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dh2022 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:43PM (#43311613)
AWS and Azure have regional data centers in each one of the countries. Data in EU stays in EU. The CAPEX risk is entirely borne by US companies while being operated by locals following local laws. These states can easily nationalize these data centers if, say, US does something really bad to them. So the geopolitical risk for using AWS or Azure seems low to me.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gpm on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311826)
The idea that we (Canada, any EU country, etc) can "easily nationalize" data centers running on bespoke hardware that we do not have a supply chain for, bespoke software which we do not control or have the source to, running workloads for customers as dictated by business relationships with a (now hostile) foreign company, with the descriptions of those workloads almost certainly stored in said hostile foreign companies local (i.e. foreign to us) servers... is absurd.

It's even more absurd to suggest that this can be done in response to the US becoming more hostile than they are today. By the time they are more hostile, we're talking about open hostilities. It's only safe to assume that they will have exfiltrated all the data they are interested in, and then sabotaged or destroy as much of the hardware as possible (as can be done remotely), making the data center next to worthless. And prior to nationalization it was "their data-center", they were entirely within their "rights" to sabotage and destroy it.

The time to migrate away from data-centers to minimize geo political risk is now, not when the current data centers operators are actively trying to deal damage.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by j0057 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:56PM (#43311776)
'Data stays in EU' is not true: the US CLOUD act means that American law enforcement and intelligence agencies can and do access data stored in data centers operated by American companies, whether or not they are on American soil.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gatienboquet on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:04PM (#43311891)
If you have local warrants.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ahakki on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:38PM (#43312230)
IIRC the US-UK CLOUD Act Agreement extended the jurisdiction of each parties warrants onto the other parties territory.

I have not looked at the US-EU agreement.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:03PM (#43313796)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat...

You don't need an agreement.

Tthe EU commission has tried to create schemes bypassing the issue, and twice they were dismantled by the EU supreme court.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by worik on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:32PM (#43312169)
> If you have local warrants

To obey local laws

The USA is going "unlawful", so the risks are technical and real. Local laws do not apply

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rschoultz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:17PM (#43312017)
Similar to that jets effectively would be grounded the second that the US decides they would not be exportable to a former ally, my guess is that not many would, in this scenario, believe a former US owned AWS region in Europe to operate completely autonomously to the degree that it can be “easily” nationalized.

But long before that, I believe there will be other noticeable effects. As someone working in a medium sized European company, with substantial investments across private infrastructures, AWS, GCP and some Azure, I can testify to that since last couple of weeks the Public Cloud Exit strategies around having services being prepared is a very hot topic. This concerns both existing services preparations as well as enforcing standards and configurations for new services.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by poisonborz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:58PM (#43311800)
What does the hardware give you? These datacenters are dependent on US teams, US processes using US maintained software. It's just a bunch of fast deprecating assets, which would need a full reinstall by a team of an AWS-like entity built from ground up.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:01PM (#43311840)
this is the same tired argument as to why conventional forces are redundant if you have nuclear weapons, due to MAD

the enemy will never put you into a position where the rational thing to do is to launch your nukes (nationalise their data centres)

but they will push and push up against that line

the way to deal with this is gradual decoupling, ideally backed up by legislation and government subsidy

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:45PM (#43311644)
The risk isn't geopolitical but economic decoupling. American tech valuations will take a bath.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:19PM (#43312032)
Who cares about tech stocks? Have a look at what happens when the dollar loses it's status as reserve currency.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:44PM (#43312955)
Almost all of the S&P gains have been tech stocks.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:37PM (#43313499)
Like I said, go have a look at what happens when we lose reserve status and get back to me about how what you just said is in any way relevant. Parenthetically bullshit like this is why I invest in real estate.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:17PM (#43313945)
See what happens to real estate when the boomers start dying.

The reserve status is overblown. The question is if not the USD what asset would reserves go into. Certainly not the yuan with china's currency controls.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:36PM (#43316775)
Lol you want to know what happens to real estate when the boomers start keeling over en masse? Blackrock et al increase their rental portfolio, rent and land prices continue to rise. What, you think the largest hedge funds on the planet made a mistake when they started investing in residential real estate? Check your assumptions.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311832)
Nationalization of foreign assets occurs at an extreme level of hostility that stable European governments would have no chance of doing, unless it had been done first by the other side. It is the kind of thing that happened in Venezuela.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by worik on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:37PM (#43312222)
> Nationalization of foreign assets is an extreme level of hostility that stable European governments would have no chance of doing

I see the point. But I would not underestimate the grit of Europeans when backed into a corner, like this

The USA a Europe had very friendly relations for decades, that has changed overnight.

All bets are off

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:03PM (#43312473)
As a reference point, the US has not nationalized Russian or Chinese national's assets. Nationalization is much worse than poor diplomatic relations, on a scale of retaliation it is close to war.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:08PM (#43313834)
You may have missed the point where Trump is threatening to annex land ruled by Denmark.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ty6853 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:15PM (#43311247)
This is an inherent property of closed source proprietary weapons. Which is why gun owners like stuff like the gen3 glock and ar-15 as everyone knows how to make the parts and the open source blueprints are put into manufacture by a gazillion companies to the point PSA shitwagon can compete with a Colt and interchange most the parts.

Maybe Europe should open source a fighter jet and let the world compete on how they'll manufacture it.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by jandrewrogers on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:45PM (#43312300)
As an observation, when the US originally licensed out the AR-15 to other countries they often also had to license aluminum foundry tech at the same time. We take it for granted now because that tech is old.

The ability to scale advanced or exotic materials science at will was a cornerstone of why US weaponry is difficult to copy. People always underestimate this aspect but it is a major reason why manufacturing of state-of-the-art hardware is not fungible.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bayindirh on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:35PM (#43311507)
Europe's weaponry is already somewhat "open source". Many big things like aircraft and missile systems are designed and built with pan-European consortia. As a result, every country knows how to build these things.

Heck, even Italian Agusta sold some of their platforms to a NATO ally with build/iterate/export permissions...

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by aerostable_slug on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:35PM (#43313472)
Look up the F-35 sometime. For Germany's F-35 fleet, Rheinmetall was going to build the fuselages and do final assembly in Germany. Splitting up the work like this isn't unique to products from Panavia or similar EU-only consortia.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bayindirh on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:13PM (#43311206)
On tech side, personally I started to move my servers and personal infra to Europe, both physically and legally.

I'll not be able to leave some companies outright, but I'll be taking backups and reducing my reliance fast.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rwyinuse on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:15PM (#43313924)
Same here, it's a massive risk to trust any important data or services to be handled by American companies now. Thankfully I was already fairly decoupled from US big tech, so the transition took just a couple of days.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rvnx on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:11PM (#43311180)
Even further, the US position is getting tougher.

Now there are new ideas getting pushed (through influencers like Musk): that Ukraine "should be sanctioned", that Ukraine "should give their minerals to the US", that Ukraine "should give up their lands", that Zelensky "should resign" and finally that "US should leave NATO".

With such allies, you don't really need enemies.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:14PM (#43311231)
It’s really bizarre that we are looking at a near future where our best ally is Russia and West Europe/Canada and everyone else who was our friend is now our enemy. You literally couldn’t write this up as fiction and be taken seriously a decade ago.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by versale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:31PM (#43311453)
You'd better report your wrongthink. We, Oceania, have always been at war with Eastasia, Eurasia was always our ally.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bad_user on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:44PM (#43311622)
US's Republicans have been so afraid of '1984' that they took it as an instructions manual.
[dead]
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by psunavy03 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:27PM (#43312115)
We have an authoritarian nation conducting a literal unprovoked invasion of a liberal democratic country, this entire thread is objecting to the United States STOPPING providing materiel to said country . . . and yet people still think defense contractors are the "bad guys."

It's morbidly fascinating, really. If there's anyone who could be accused of profiting from blood money in this instance, it's companies like Sukhoi and Kalashnikov Concern.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:31PM (#43312789)
We have a border conflict on the other side of the planet that doesn’t involve America, except insofar as defense contractors are ginning up a campaign to have american taxpayers bankroll one side of that war.

And throwing around words like “liberal democracy” is just how the neocons get americans to turn their brains off and support such endeavors, as with the iraq war, and as with vietnam and korea before that. It actually doesn’t affect america whether other countries are liberal democracies or illegal democracies or something else, so long as they don’t attack america and keep terrorists who might attack america at bay.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pharrington on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:40PM (#43314172)
RUSSIA invaded Ukraine. WE invaded Iraq. WE invaded Vietnam. WE invaded ̶K̶o̶r̶e̶a̶.

You're exposing yourself. Stop while you're behind.

editted after child replies

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:41PM (#43314681)
Iraq invaded Kuwait, our “ally.” South Korea, a democracy, was invaded by North Korea, a Soviet proxy state. South Vietnam, a democracy, was invaded by north vietnam, a Soviet proxy state.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Jtsummers on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:51PM (#43314762)
It depends on which Iraq war they mean. Most people your age and under typically mean the second war, when the US did invade Iraq.

But yes, the first time it was Iraq that was the belligerent and invaded Kuwait.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:53PM (#43315691)
You can’t disentangle the two like that. If you posit that the first gulf war was justified, you’re 90% of the way to justifying the second. The intelligence was that Iraq was rearming. If your position is that the U.S. would’ve had to intervene in the event Iraq invaded a neighbor again, then it doesn’t seem unreasonable to invade preemptively to avoid a potentially costlier conflict.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Dylan16807 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:20PM (#43316359)
That's not the reason we used for invading, though.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pharrington on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:02PM (#43314870)
This thread's corrections to my getting history wrong are just showing how disingenuous you are.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:55PM (#43315701)
You’re the one who doesn’t know the history of mistaken american wars in the 20th century and I’m the one being disingenuous?

How do you distinguish Korea, Vietnam, and the first Gulf War from Ukraine? And I suppose your only quibble about the Iraq War is that we should’ve waited until Saddam invaded another neighbor, like he did the first time?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pharrington on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:24PM (#43316720)
I admit when I'm wrong. You don't. That's one way you're being disingenuous.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Jtsummers on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:50PM (#43314268)
The US did not invade Korea. Post WWII, Korea was split into its northern and southern zones which ended up becoming North and South Korea (the intent had been to make it one independent Korea, but put the USSR and USA in a room together and there will be no agreement on how to do that). In 1950, North Korea invaded South Korea. The UN called for a military response, the US supplied most of that response. But the US did not invade Korea.

North Korea invaded South Korea, the US and others fought them back on behalf of, and with, South Korea . China and the USSR supported North Korea, which is ultimately why it ended in a stalemate.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pharrington on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:59PM (#43314843)
Sorry yeah i was wrong about Korea.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:03PM (#43311865)
The present administration isn't really planning to cut military spending, they just want to redirect it. $4B of military aid was recently approved for another country.

Here's the budgetary outlook: You'll notice that defense spending is projected to have a slight increase in real terms, or a slight (0.1%) decrease in terms of fraction of GDP.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61172

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Jtsummers on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:59PM (#43313118)
Yep. DOD spending is likely to shift, but not be reduced. The major firms are probably going to see some contracts cut or tougher competition from the likes of Anduril in certain domains.

DOD spending in IT-related efforts may also shift, Palantir will be a major contender here.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:41PM (#43312253)
What a reductionist cliche of a moral position.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pharrington on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:03PM (#43311869)
Are you the mythical "ethical consumer under capitalism" I've heard so many legends about?

addendum: sibling comment's point is more relevant

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fifilura on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:47PM (#43311665)
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ahartmetz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:41PM (#43312923)
The Manchurian Candidate was along these lines, though it has an (early) happy ending, before the candidate becomes president, at least in the movie. I haven't read the book.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dragonwriter on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:06PM (#43312502)
“Our best ally is Russia” is a nightmare scenario; ask anyone else in the CSTO how responsive Russia is to allies’ needs.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bojan on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:13PM (#43312591)
And a bit further back, ask anyone who the Red Army helped liberate in WW2 what has happened later, and how long it took the Red Army to actually withdraw.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by BrandoElFollito on Monday March 10, 2025 @09:59AM (#43320704)
For a generic village in Poland during WWII having the Red Army show up was an order of magnitude worse outcome then the Germans.

What was expected were rapes and thefts so people preferred to flee. It was really the nightmare scenario.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Monday March 10, 2025 @11:43AM (#43321798)
Found the Nazi.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ck2 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:51PM (#43311728)
The shift to bailout Russia is no surprise to anyone taking notes, there is a long LONG history

https://reddit.com/comments/j6z8eh

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by hyperman1 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:02PM (#43311857)
It was idiotically unbelievable fiction until literally the day before Trump took office, even with project 2025 readable on the internet.

In fact, we discussed how the whole idea of an USA ex-president calling up a personal militia, trying a coup that could reboot a civil war, giving up half way, and not ending up in jail or even politically castrated was garbage fiction until 5 jan 2021.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by yuliyp on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:29PM (#43311415)
It really makes you feel like you're in the middle part of the 1980s.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by davidw on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:43PM (#43312271)
I lived through the 1980ies, and I still have trouble processing the idea that the anti-Soviet, rah-rah patriot types that loved movies like Red Dawn are now in bed with the Russians. It's just bizarre.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by jcgrillo on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:26PM (#43312727)
It used to be that fascists and communists were our most hated enemies. How the tables have turned!

EDIT: more seriously, though, throughout the 20th century America hewed much closer to fascism than communism. It's always been there, if not always out in the open.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pmontra on Monday March 10, 2025 @02:04AM (#43317423)
They are more or less the same thing. Fascism in its original form (with that name) in Italy one century ago had an anti communism flavor because communists were its internal enemies to the road of power. Remove that and you are left with nationalism, control of society (what you can say in pubblic, how to behave) and control of economy even in something as thin as do as you please but do not challenge the big boss with the influence you gain with your money (see what happened in China a few years ago.)

Communism had an internationalist phase but that was over by the middle of the cold war. It started as an ideal, then become a way to rationalize the USSR's grip on the East, then it died out as countries started to realize they would be better off with the other bloc.

Edit: of course communism had more ideals than internationalism. For example it did not include the authoritarianism part. However they disappeared after it was implemented as a way to rule a country and were replaced by the means that allowed the ruling group to stay in power.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wat10000 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:03PM (#43316256)
It is, but it also makes sense. The enemy wasn’t really Russia, it was communism and, more broadly, leftism.

Modern Russia resembles the USSR in some respects: oppressive government, not particularly wealthy, over-militarized. But it’s definitely not communist.

If freedom and democracy is your thing then that part doesn’t matter. But if your thing is anti-leftism, conservative morality, militarism, powerful rulers, and white people, modern Russia looks pretty good.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:29PM (#43311416)
You must have been traveling in some neocon circles a decade ago. But normalizing relations with Russia and disengaging with the rest of the world military was the goal for us liberals back then: https://youtu.be/T1409sXBleg?si=svqMzx1aAIKgMd13; https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bojan on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:58PM (#43313103)
And that made sense, as there was a point in time that Russia did seem like it had a chance of becoming a normal democracy. At some point even the idea of the EU membership was floating around.

By the 2008 attack on Georgia it was clear that there is no democratisation of Russia, but some people didn't want to believe it for a long time, not even after 2014 attack on Ukraine.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bakuninsbart on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:46PM (#43313601)
EU membership was never feasible. Russia is too large population-wise, it would have threatened franco-german leadership of the EU. The EU, as it was back then was hanging in a delicate balance, where France and Germany usually had to agree on something to get things done, but other countries could form blocks of convenience to push their own demands through (eg. UK, Nordics and the Netherlands on fiscal discipline, or the Baltics, Visegrad and countries from the Balcans on immigration). France and Germany would not have wanted to lose that much influence, Poland would not have wanted to be between Russia and Germany again (politically speaking), and hatred of Russia runs rather deep in countries of its former empire.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by somenameforme on Monday March 10, 2025 @12:59AM (#43317148)
The US has had normal relations with places as radical as Saudi Arabia for many decades. Ideological, political, and other differences do not preclude normal relations. There's really an absolutely phenomenal article on the deterioration of Russia-US relations here. [1] In general, the problem is that after the collapse of the USSR, the US was left as the defacto ruler of the world. And we wanted to cling onto that position permanently. Germany, for example, is a country that could be independently great but has made no efforts towards such and has largely been content to remain deferential to the US, so it retains extremely positive relations with the US, so far as such a relationship can be called positive.

But as Russia started to regain strength in the early 2000s, they specifically aimed for positive relations with the US, but also were not happy with a Germany style relationship and wanted to be treated as equals. This led to us doubling down on hostilities towards them. But this deterioration of relations inevitably led to where we are today, but fortunately not where we could have ended up - which is in the nuclear wasteland that was briefly called WW3.

This also ties right back in to Georgia. Back in 2008 at the Bucharest summit the US was openly encouraging and supportive of Georgia's efforts to join NATO. France and Germany were strongly opposed to such, arguing that such a move would needlessly provoke Russia, but we aimed to move ahead with it anyhow. The Georgia-Russia war would start a few months later.

[1] - https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/us-russia-putin-re...

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wat10000 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:47PM (#43311672)
Sure, back when Russia looked vaguely like a democracy for about ten minutes.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:39PM (#43312889)
We are allied with lots of non-democracies, including ones that invade their neighbors (like Saudi). That part is irrelevant.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wat10000 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:14PM (#43313913)
It’s extremely relevant when you’re talking about why liberals would think we should be friendly to this country. I haven’t seen a lot of liberals in favor of being friendly to Saudi Arabia.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by uxp100 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:50PM (#43316158)
Once they hold national office they become favorable to it.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dragonwriter on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:16PM (#43313280)
> You must have been traveling in some neocon circles a decade ago. But normalizing relations with Russia and disengaging with the rest of the world military was the goal for us liberals back then

I don't know which is more wrong, the broad claim here or the claim that you are a liberal.

I mean, what you describe was generally the case...but between the fall of the USSR and the start of the new US-Russia Cold War around 1998-1999, with the belief that Russia was on a path that, while rocky, led to Western-friendly democracy with the right support.

From 1999-2014 (but generally declining through that period) engagement was viewed as useful, in part because Russia’s hostile turn was seen by some as curable with reassurance, but more because Russia was seen as a generally hostile generally but having useful alignments of interest in some parts of the world.

But by a decade ago, 2015? “Normalizing relations with Russia and disengaging with the rest of the world militarily” was certainly not a common, much less the dominant, American liberal position on foreign policy.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Fnords on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:10PM (#43312548)
Obama's 100% correct point was that Russia was incredibly weak economically. Obama never said we should disengage "with the rest of the world military." Bush, Clinton, W. Bush also tried to normalize with Russia. Everyone hoped Putin was sane. Obama strengthened our alliances. And he has been proven right. Ukraine has depleted Russias military stockpiles and their National Wealth Fund. Russia was weaker than people thought.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by CapricornNoble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:04PM (#43314373)
>Bush, Clinton, W. Bush also tried to normalize with Russia. Everyone hoped Putin was sane.

Bush Jr, who unilaterally withdrew from the START treaty in 2002[1], and pushed to establish ABM sites in eastern Europe in 2007? That's considered "normalizing"?[2][3] And Putin, who protested both of these actions as destabilizing, is somehow considered the not-sane one in this narrative?

>Ukraine has depleted Russias military stockpiles and their National Wealth Fund. Russia was weaker than people thought.

"Russia is never as strong as she appears....and Russia is never as weak as she appears." -- multiple attributions including Bismark and Churchill

Russia was supposed to run out of ballistic missiles...in summer 2022.[4] They've also likely taken more casualties than the entire active duty strength of the UK, French, and German land forces combined (73K + 118K + 63K ~= 250k) while still keeping a cohesive force capable of offensive combat operations in the field, which has GROWN since the war started to somewhere around 550-650K (up from ~200-350K in 2022).[5][6] Russia only appears weak by the standard established by the US 1990-2005....but the US is essentially a super-saiyan and functioned on a different plane of existence from every other military in the world.

[1] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/unilateral-withdrawal-fro...

[2] https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna21262371

[3] https://www.insightturkey.com/articles/missile-defense-in-eu...

[4] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/01/vladimir-p...

[5] https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4589095-russian-army-grow...

[6] https://archive.is/zQ6CU

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by artem2471 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:18PM (#43314496)
The article in Telegraph is not about ballistic missiles, but about a very specific type of cruise missile, Kh-55, which is a nuclear capable missile. There are other cruise missiles that Russia makes, and there is still production of ballistic, aero ballistic and hypersonic ones.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Projectiboga on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:43PM (#43315614)
I am in no way defending their conduct but they did simply ask for a firm No NATO in Ukraine and they were rebuffed before he 2022 invasion and during initial post invasion negotiations.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rat87 on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @07:18PM (#43338165)
They absolutely positively did not. They wanted to roll back of NATO membership as a start and were uninterested when Ukraine was trying to avert the possibility of a larger scale invasion (not to mention when Russia violated both Minsk treaties then pretended it didn't apply to them).

Russia knew that Ukraine had little chance of getting into NATO in early 2022 and wasn't even persuing it after the revolution of dignity before the 2014 invasion

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:42PM (#43312266)
It's almost like things have happened between then and now.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by hdjjhhvvhga on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:10PM (#43311946)
Well, there was a point when everybody, including European politicians, wanted to normalize relations with Russia. But the guy had a different view and chose to invade Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. At that point some people still chose to believe that he can be civilized. It backfired badly in 2022. So now Trump trying the same thing and pretending to be Putin's buddy and trying his best to make Ukraine miserable is just sad.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:22PM (#43312700)
Obama’s dig at Romney was well after the invasion of Georgia. what Obama correctly understood is that Russia’s designs on Eastern Europe don’t actually matter to America.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ashoeafoot on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:52PM (#43312374)
Dont forget the first and second chechenya wars.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by vkou on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:10PM (#43312551)
Russia didn't pivot its policy in 2008, it did so a decade earlier, when the second Yugoslavian war was carried out without buy-in from it (the first one was, to an extent, a joint NATO-Russian operation).

And then the coalition of the willing invaded Iraq[1], again, against Russia's wishes, and by that point, that's like two countries attacked (one invaded and occupied) by NATO/most of its members, and you'd have to be an idiot to look at that and not notice that it shifted from a purely defensive alliance to an offensive one. [2]

Putin isn't an idiot, he looks at this and starts surrounding himself with buffer states, through both soft and hard power. Unfortunately, soft power isn't working out great in this, for various reasons.

---

[1] It's weird how when you mention Iraq in isolation, people think it's indefensible, but when you mention it in the context of Russian anxieties, all of a sudden, we are all bending over backwards to explain how it was perfectly justified, and it wasn't unprovoked aggression against an uninvolved country.

[2] It's been 14 years since NATO attacked a country, though (Libya in 2011 - if you squint hard enough, Syria might not count), so I guess we could once again reframe it as a defensive alliance. [3]

[3] It the US continues on it's insane trajectory and withdraws, it will definitely become a defensive alliance, simply because it will lack the ability to project power.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wat10000 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:07PM (#43316280)
“It's weird how when you mention Iraq in isolation, people think it's indefensible, but when you mention it in the context of Russian anxieties, all of a sudden, we are all bending over backwards to explain how it was perfectly justified, and it wasn't unprovoked aggression against an uninvolved country.”

Wat? I’ve never heard anything like that. I’ve heard people try to justify it on the basis of believing the WMD lie or removing Saddam from power, but Russia is never even mentioned in this context.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fakedang on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:30PM (#43313431)
The game Tom Clancy's End War is basically about a quadripolar world (you play as Russia, USA or Europe), where Russia hacks the EU WMD network and uses it to attack an American space-based weapon, using that as a false flag operation to make America go to war with Europe. Russia "joins" USA in an alliance and attacks the EU from the east while the US attacks from the Netherlands and Denmark.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by freehorse on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:24PM (#43314025)
There were people saying that, but you are right that they were not been taken seriously. Maybe they should have had.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by tmn on Monday March 10, 2025 @12:00AM (#43316889)
I think this is a popular but unrealistic take based on real observation.Real observations being. Increase friendliness towards Russia. Decrease friendliness towards Europe/canada. Don’t confuse inflection points with the actual position.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rapjr9 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:10PM (#43311943)
Leaving NATO is not a one way street. If the US leaves NATO, then the NATO countries can also stop supporting the US. How many components of US weapon systems are made in the EU?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:47PM (#43312313)
The US cannot support it's military projection without allies. If every US base has to be ran as 'fortress USA' the budget will break. Even just losing a few strategically located bases will greatly increase the cost of power projection.

All Europe has to do is stop all local support for US bases and force all resupply to be done via the US military and the bases existing infra, not via ANY civilian infrastructure (no civilian airports, no civilian trucking, no civilian shipping). That's just one pain point in the USAs soft underbelly that we didn't have to worry about before because we had allies.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:30PM (#43312770)
But why do we need “power projection?” Why do we need bases all over the world?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:06PM (#43313174)
You mean why do we need Greenland and Canada?

US power in Europe has been our intentional policy since the end of WW2. I can't do justice in educating you on the geopolitics of it all but there is a plethora of information out there for you. Not sure how an American can get to be an adult without understanding the background and reasoning.

We did this to the point of encouraging Germany to include limitations on their own power in their constitution (along with Japan). Anyways it's a long, thought out standing position of our country that has 70 years of thought put into it versus the recent 'but it's not fair to us' MAGA reaction based position.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by lostdog on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:59PM (#43313752)
You asked this exact question last week and I answered it. If you are just going to ignore the people who reply to you, why bother commenting?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:06PM (#43313822)
But your answer was handwaving. What’s the evidentiary basis for concluding that maintaining bases all over the world benefits americans? The British Empire was motivated by mercantilism: by requiring colonies to sell raw materials to Britain and buy finished goods from Britain, it ensured Britain remained highest on the supply chain, and redirected capital from the colonies to Britain.

We don’t do anything like that. We don’t extract resources from Europe at below market value. We run a trade deficit, so free trade doesn’t even help us. So what’s the concrete explanation that isn’t just recycling liberal internationalist tropes?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by lostdog on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:23PM (#43314017)
I would like to see the trade deficit evening out, but even then, the deficit is ~0.6% of our GDP. Charitably, the intake of goods we do support keeps our internal economy extremely productive, so even at a deficit maybe it's worth it.

That said, it's not very difficult to fix the deficit if there were any will. And once fixed, the US would benefit from open maritime trade more than anyone else. Holding these bases helps us keep the world in order, and in the current order the US winds up on top. (Though the US does need to deal with China's incursions).

It's funny to see you use the word "evidentiary" when you do not apply any standard to your own comments. If you do reply, please try to back up your points, since I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:32PM (#43314598)
Why would we benefit from more trade when we don’t make anything?

I don’t have evidence that american empire is bad for the economy. But the cost of maintaining it are indisputably high and result in a lot of immortality. So I would like evidence that maintaining an empire actually results in benefits that offset the cost.

Economic theory certainly doesn’t predict that empires would make you richer than free markets. And if empire makes you richer, why is Europe so content to be under our yoke?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by nradov on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:30PM (#43315045)
We make a lot of stuff. The manufacturing industry contributes >$2T to US GDP.

The US doesn't have an empire, but we do have a degree of worldwide hegemony. As a practical matter if the US turns isolationist then China will fill that gap. Will that make US citizens richer?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:45PM (#43315626)
> As a practical matter if the US turns isolationist then China will fill that gap.

That sounds like a very neocon view of how the world works. We have to maintain an empire because if we don’t, someone else will?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by nradov on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:08PM (#43316285)
One nice thing about being a superpower is that we don't have to do anything. We can choose to be isolationist. That seems like a seductive option in the short term because it costs us nothing. But historically that approach hasn't worked out well for us in the past. Will the average US citizen be better off if China takes over as the primary global power?

And stop being disingenuous by labelling the current US-led global security system as an "empire". Words mean things and I'm sure you're smart enough to know what a real empire looks like, so I can't imagine what you think you're accomplishing by trying to frame the debate that way.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:21PM (#43316368)
Why do you assume China will take over as a superpower? It’s certainly not the case historically that there’s a single global hegemon.

Also, I use “empire” because people are justifying our having military bases all over the world on that somehow benefitting america economically. I am not sure I understand why—forcing the world to use dollars as the reserve currency seems to be part of the theory. But if that’s the case then empire is an appropriate label.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by lostdog on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:48PM (#43314732)
Well, the US has been the most prosperous country for a long time, so clearly something is working. Maybe the "empire" has nothing to do with it, sure, but I'd like to see you support your position instead of nitpicking other people's.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by palata on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:50PM (#43314750)
> why is Europe so content to be under our yoke?

Sorry to disappoint, but Europe is not particularly content to be under the US yoke.

Actually, the US has been actively pressuring Europe to keep it under their yoke. For decades.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wqaatwt on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:29AM (#43317828)
US doesn’t have to make “anytime” why export products when you can just export cash?

US economy, trade and budget deficit are subsidized by the rest of the world which buys their bonds.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:29PM (#43314575)
Dude please stop 'just asking questions' soley so you can respond to your own questions with your already established position. It's extremely bad faith.

You asked this questions previously. You got an answer previously. You justify asking the question again because the answer doesn't align with your position and also because... smears on liberal values??? Stop, you are not acting in good faith. You are acting like a propagandist.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rayiner on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:47PM (#43315645)
I’m sorry, but if you’re extolling the virtues of american empire and having military bases around the world you’re the one acting like a propagandist.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:05AM (#43317166)
Haha. You can't defend your manipulative posting designed to let you inject your narrative so you just turn around and accuse me of something you randomly assign.

Again showing you are just a propagandist troll and not posting your questions in any sort of good faith.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by kranke155 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:57PM (#43314326)
Because the alternative to a US dominated world is a world dominated by someone else.

History has shown that lesson again and again and again. There is no “peaceful world without a hegemon” period of history. There is Pax Brittanica, Pax Romana and Pax Americana which is now coming to an end.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by thereisnospork on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:03PM (#43314370)
So we can extract value value from having the biggest stick. Surely any competent businessman turned president couldn't fail to turn a profit when our military, and only our military, can secure the safe travel of goods anywhere in the world and overthrow any non-nuclear power who acts not in america's interest.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wqaatwt on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:27AM (#43317818)
Same reason US needs a huge military.

Deterrence and overwhelming force are the only ways to ensure longterm peace and stability.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rurban on Monday March 10, 2025 @05:27AM (#43318461)
Establishing fascist military regimes all over the Americas, Europe and Asia might have been good for longterm peace and stability, and esp. US companies and global trade, but not so for the oppressed civilians and workers.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wqaatwt on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @02:57AM (#43329861)
Could you actually explain what fascist regimes did US establish in Europe?

Greek Junta perhaps, but it was anything but stable and it collapsed because of a war in Cyprus with another NATO member..

Or are you claiming that Americans put Putin in power in Russia? Slightly far fetched but you might have a point..

Because I can’t think of anything else.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rurban on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @04:18AM (#43330316)
Out of my head all. It started with financing Hitler and Mussolini.

Spain and Portugal.

Then Turkey, Greece, Italy, Belgium. Belgium didn't last long though.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wqaatwt on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:18AM (#43332690)
I’m not sure in what way do you think US “financed Hitler and Mussolini” (or whatever’s going on in your head for that matter..)

But it’s a weird thing to say when the USSR/Stalin literally bankrolled the Nazi invasions of Norway and France (whatever the financing they got from the US USSR contributed a few magnitudes more).

Germany had no oil after Poland and its not far fetched that France/Britain could have just waited it out had the Soviets not bailed them out.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fallingknife on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:02PM (#43312456)
I think that's kind of the point. The Trump admin takes a very isolationist view of things, so I don't think they even want all those international bases.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dboreham on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:17PM (#43313292)
That's about two orders of magnitude more thinking than they're actually doing.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by _DeadFred_ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:34PM (#43312816)
It's not the point for the MAGA types. They want the power AND deference of the good old days, not actual feeble pullback and irrelevance. They think Europe paying it's share means Europe will pay for OUR military presence. Add on their kids no longer having access to military jobs/path to education and those communities will start to freak out. Trump wants to project power in the middle east. That's current done out of European bases.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by warrenmiller on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:49PM (#43313004)
tell that to Greenland.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by victorbjorklund on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:10PM (#43313859)
he doesnt care about the military bases. he just want the resources. National security is just an excuse.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by BrandoElFollito on Monday March 10, 2025 @10:01AM (#43320734)
If you add to this cutting power and water supply you really need some infrastructure upgrade.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sekai on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:36PM (#43313492)
> Leaving NATO is not a one way street. If the US leaves NATO, then the NATO countries can also stop supporting the US. How many components of US weapon systems are made in the EU?

For example, 15% of every F35 is made in UK.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gip on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:15PM (#43311242)
Totally agree that Trump is trading long-term dominance for short-term gains.

I think that in a few months, we will see the U.S. economy doing very well and somehow rebuilding its industrial base. In the long term, U.S. influence and wealth will make up a much smaller share of the world’s wealth than it does today.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fifilura on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:20PM (#43311296)
He does not rule out recession. Why do you think the US economy will be doing very well because of his policies?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gip on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:38PM (#43312228)
I do think there will be a recession yes. But within 6 to 18 months, the recession could be over with and growth will come back as the US rebuilds some of its industrial base. US imports and exports will decrease over time.

Note: it is my prediction at 70% (e.g. I think there is 70% that it will happen).

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by tpm on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:08PM (#43312519)
It could be over, but it won't be over, because he can't be trusted, changes position on important issues every night, and this does not create environment welcoming to investors. Nobody sane will commit to longterm investment. No investment, no growth.

> US imports and exports will decrease over time.

So prices will rise and and government expenditures will fall. Where exactly will that growth come from?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gip on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:16PM (#43312625)
I think companies who want to access the large U.S. internal market will have an incentive to have factories in the U.S. That will likely fuel growth. The growth will be coupled with less imports and exports given nationalism and tariffs.

And if it is what the Americans want why not. But as the U.S. take this new direction, let's make sure former allies are treated with respect and given proper notice of the changes so that they can adapt their economies and defense postures.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fifilura on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:18PM (#43313301)
Could work. Or they could just decide to invest elsewhere.

I guess if the economy is in a recession and people spending less it is not the best place to invest. Unless it is for cheap labor but then you'll have problems with export tariffs.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gip on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:55PM (#43314309)
If they invest elsewhere, they will have limited access to the U.S. market—that is Trump’s policy it seems.

If the U.S. has one thing going for it, it’s the strength of its market, characterized by high consumer spending and strong potential for growth. Contrast this with the Japanese consumer market, for instance: in real terms, salaries have not increased over the past 10 years, and consumer spending is below what it was a decade ago. (Note: I love Japan, but this is the reality.) European market is between these extremes I believe. The U.S. market may be significantly more attractive to most companies.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by toast0 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:53PM (#43314784)
If the high tarriff environment sticks around, including reciprocal tarriffs, the issue is either you produce in the US and have good access to the US and poor access everywhere else, or you produce outside the US and have poor access to the US, and good access to much of everywhere else (depending on things).

The US is a big and important market, and for some things, it would be better to forgo competitiveness in the rest of world market; but for others, rest of world adds up to be more important.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by piva00 on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:28AM (#43318126)
Same line of thinking was used during the Great Depression of 1929, protectionist measures only made everything worse, deepening and extending the recession.

It won't work...

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rapjr9 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:42PM (#43313562)
It usually takes five to ten years to move a factory from one country to another, and it costs an enormous amount of money that mostly will not drive new profit. Costs in the US will be higher also. There is more to consider in moving a factory to the US than market access.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by drumhead on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:43PM (#43314213)
There isnt the slack in the US labor force to rebuild the manufacturing base. Not without significant inflationary pressure. Especially with the hostility towards migaration.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by piva00 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:12PM (#43314439)
Who will be building, and manning all that newly developed industrial base? You cannot create enough labour in 18 months, it's a very hard fact of reality.

Your labour market has been running at full employment for a while, 4-5% unemployment, there's no leftover hands to help with building up multiple industrial bases. Unless you want massive inflation when all these openings for the rebuilding of USA's industrial base, and need to pay a lot to absorb as much labour as possible to actually happen.

Not even considering in how much risk the investors of this new industrial base will be having to hedge against, who knows when Trump will increase tariffs on their inputs until everything rebuilds internally, financial hedging, oversupplying their warehouses to prepare for shocks, etc. are all quite expensive. Who will pay for it?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dzhiurgis on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:20PM (#43315902)
I'm only partly serious, but AI is about to make quite a bit of people redundant.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by terrabiped on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:07PM (#43311914)
So far we’ve only traded our long term dominance. I’m yet to see any short term gains or even prospects of those.

Unbelievable amount of damage done in just a month.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by MaxDPS on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:45PM (#43312299)
Assuming that does happen, it won’t be “in a few months”. At best, this is a timeline measured in years if not decades.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:47PM (#43311671)
I don't even see the short term gain.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by schmookeeg on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:31PM (#43312159)
I keep expecting him to rally his support base and attempt to overturn the 22nd amendment. Short-term "winning" might be exactly what he needs to rally them.

Honestly I expected it on his last term.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:41PM (#43312254)
Get out of an unwinnable war with minimal losses and re-group for the war that will really matter. China.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Epa095 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:35PM (#43312841)
One would think it would be a bit beneficial to have some allies in that war...
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by CapricornNoble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:21PM (#43314512)
Yeah, would have been really useful for the US to at least convince China's northern neighbor to constantly do mobilization exercises [1] on their shared border to keep the PLA off-balance and draw combat power away from important theaters. Instead, we've pissed away the Sino-Soviet Split and enabled Eurasia to operate with secure interior lines. This can be chalked up entirely to really arrogant and foolish neocon decision-making with regards to Russia 2003-2007.

[1] https://www.chathamhouse.org/2018/09/russias-vostok-exercise...

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:36PM (#43314633)
Russia is now so weak as to pose no threat to China.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:03AM (#43317690)
With ramped up warhead production and a battle-tested army? Yeah, so very weak.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Sabinus on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:02PM (#43315751)
It's interesting you bring up the Sino-Soviet split.

I would argue that Trump has inflicted the same thing on NATO. Atlantic relations are at an all time low. Putin will be delighted.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bigfudge on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:24PM (#43313368)
There’s close to zero chance the US would win a war with China in the event that it attacks Taiwan. Either china wins quickly, or it takes out all the assets which make it strategic in any case.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by holoduke on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:57PM (#43314323)
Why would the US or the west or China wants to start a war? Over what? They don't have any disputes about land or people. Just some irritations about whatever. But certainly not recipe for war. Even Taiwan is not a reason for the US to start a real war against China. Proxy war by supporting Taiwan sure. But thats it.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by spookie on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:56PM (#43316204)
Oh, the US are gonna help Taiwan? I would've thought you might think of it as unwinnable too.

Oh, that's why Trump is trying to speed up TSMC to build chips on US soil! Now everything makes sense! Surely, TSMC will just do it! And the Chinese will wait for the transition period to finish before they attack the island!

This is absolutely intended to be sarcastic and demonstrate the absurdity that someone who cuts ties with allies would ever do anything to help the next one. And if that next one is threatened with war, it would ever feel comfortable to effectively destroy their only bargaining chip for assured US military help afterwards.

Man, all I know is this year isn't going to end well. For anyone.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:07AM (#43317714)
Long term the Taiwan situation absolutely is unwinnable, and their current government is completely dependent on the US when it comes to staying in power. There is a strong pro-unification party ready to take over the moment US support is put on hold. Wonder if we'll see this card played when negotiating with TSMC...
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by method_capital on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:50PM (#43313651)
Overspending for decades. Rationalization requires economic pain. Big surprise: restraint lacks the support pissing money every which way enjoys.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by threeseed on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:01PM (#43314348)
They are planning a $4.5 trillion tax cut for the rich.

Not seeing much restraint there.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by jppope on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:37PM (#43311543)
In fairness, he's getting kind of old.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dboreham on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:44PM (#43311627)
US economy definitely won't be doing well.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by hdjjhhvvhga on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:14PM (#43311982)
> Totally agree that Trump is trading long-term dominance for short-term gains.

I'd say the other way round - rebuilding everything that was outsourced will take a long time, so hard times are ahead. In the long term, I hope the USA will be less dependent on China.

But at the same time the way it was done completely destroyed the credibility of the USA as a reliable partner, both in trade as well as military relations. Countries will organize new treaties, and the USA will be a powerful player but with far less influence than before.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by fifilura on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:27PM (#43312116)
There has to be cheaper, faster and easier ways to bring coal mines and steel plants back to USA?

For the coal mines, maybe you could fund them through some museum budget?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:34PM (#43313464)
No one is going to invest in building the US industrial base unless there's stability.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by brokenmachine on Monday March 10, 2025 @12:22AM (#43316995)
More like trading long-term dominance for short-term losses.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:39PM (#43312234)
How do they justify buying US war tech? By understanding what the US will do to their country if they don't buy it, and figuring out how to sugar coat this to their populace.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ashoeafoot on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:48PM (#43312331)
Countries do have choices and many did choose the us as security provider. Some thirld world countries recently switched away from russia and/or started to built versions of their own design of previously in license produced weaponry. Examplw: India
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:09PM (#43312533)
And Turkey buys from both. But India and Turkey have a degree of independence that small European nations do not have. The latter are entirely reliant on NATO for their security, and until recently this meant being friends with the USA.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by aerostable_slug on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:41PM (#43313535)
This simply isn't true. Various countries bought F-35 even after recognizing it's far more of a geopolitical PITA than Rafale or Gripen because F-35 is world-beating. It is that much better than the competition that putting up with various restrictions is almost always worth it.

Where the competition is less slanted, yes you see countries selecting Leopard for their MBT over Abrams (the US won't sell the advanced Abrams armor packages). But when it's F-35 vs. literally anything else, the competition is for second place. You only really choose something else when F-35 isn't an option at all. Threats aren't needed when you just have to do a fly-off.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by grvbck on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:32PM (#43314096)
But is that really how nations decide which plane to buy?

Sure, technical capabilities are crucial, but don't political and economic factors significantly influence the adoption of the F-35? Factors like strengthening alliances, diplomatic influence, cost sharing, job creation, and export strategies.

My point is: you don't just buy a plane. You buy into an ecosystem where supply chains, political partnership, trade deals and long-term support are just as important. Take away some of that, and I'm sure for a lot of buyers the Typhoon or Gripen suddenly start looking a lot more attractive.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by drumhead on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:49PM (#43314255)
The F35 is better, but they're not going to trust or give business to the US anymore. The Typhoon, Rafale and Grippen are good enough, so we'll see more purchases of those.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by palata on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:01PM (#43314861)
You have to be an American to think that, right?

Obviously many countries have bought the F-35 because of some pressure from the US or as a way to buy protection. Nobody would do that again today.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by riehwvfbk on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:09AM (#43317726)
I hear Australians are delighted with their government's purchase of American submarines.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throw__away7391 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:32PM (#43312793)
I think the administration is gambling on being able to consolidate global power before anyone is going to have a chance to build anything. Europe is completely reliant on the US and US technology for defense right now, these systems took decades and trillions of dollars to build and refine, and an 800 billion EUR investment does not magically create a military industrial complex overnight. Decades ago in my early career I briefly worked on some logistics software for the Joint Strike Fighter project and had some contact with a couple of the army of contractors working on the project. The scale and complexity of this effort blows away anything else I've ever seen in my career, which includes a number of multi-billion dollar infrastructure and nuclear power projects.

Trump talks about invading Canada or Greenland and people act like it is a joke. I don't think it is.

The US is in a position to completely dictate to Europe what they will or won't do, using Russia as a proxy for now. We are 48 days in. A couple of weeks ago I replied to someone suggesting the US could provide weapons to Russia with disbelief. I no longer consider that an impossible scenario. Europe stops buying F35s? Trump tells Europe that if they don't buy them he's going to sell them to Russia. I mean that's a relatively tame response compared to the options on the table.

Right now the only chance for Europe is to stop this madness in the US. We have this "take it down" act, the executive order to produce a report advising whether or not to declare martial law, the January 6th pardon of the Proud Boys who are now effectively a paramilitary force of thousands waiting for Trump to deploy. These are all familiar elements in history and I think we are in for a bloody, bloody summer. I think we're going to see government forces opening fire on protesters, martial law declared, and the implementation of Chinese style suppression and crackdown on dissent online. Maybe attempts to strip US citizens of their citizenship and "deport" them for good measure, anything to try to sow fear into average people to not step out of line. If the administration is successful in quashing the opposition and getting everyone to go back to work, Europe could easily next on the chopping block. Remember all the things Bannon said about the EU during the first administration.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by philwelch on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:56PM (#43313080)
This might be the most delusional comment I’ve ever seen on HN. Crackdown on dissent online? That’s the explicit policy of our “democratic” European “allies” that the Vice President openly criticized in Munich. Opening fire on protestors? What protestors? And this talk of a thousands-strong Proud Boys “paramilitary” is paranoid nonsense.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throw__away7391 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:07PM (#43313182)
Well I hope you are right. All of those things were already either done or tried by Trump during his last term. The trajectory is leading towards further escalation.

The protests will escalate in the summer, when the weather is warmer, more time has passed for awareness of what is happening to soak in, and students are on school break.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dboreham on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:21PM (#43313337)
There have been street protests here in Montana (red state) already (because he fired large numbers of national park and forest service employees and said any foreign students who made online comments supporting Palestinians should be deported).
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by AtomBalm on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:55PM (#43314798)
The most delusional comment is quite an achievement on this goofy corner of the web.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rapjr9 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:04PM (#43313803)
>Europe stops buying F35s? Trump tells Europe that if they don't buy them he's going to sell them to Russia.

Actually Europe would stop supplying components for the F-35's so the US would not be able to build any more or keep the ones they have working, let alone sell them to Russia. Russia would never buy them anyway, how could they trust that the next US president wouldn't pull the plug on spare parts? Would they trust that Trump is going to become dictator for life? (And what happens after he dies?) Russia has their own fighters that may not be quite as capable in some ways, but are good enough. Russia sells jet fighters themselves, they do not buy them.

>Europe is completely reliant on the US and US technology for defense right now, these systems took decades and trillions of dollars to build and refine, and an 800 billion EUR investment does not magically create a military industrial complex overnight.

Europe already has a large local military industrial complex. Half of what Ukraine has received has come from Europe. They would only have to expand what they have, not develop new technologies, except perhaps for a replacement for the Patriot missile system. They'd get a boost from converting their existing factories from building US weapons components to building EU weapons components as well.

I'm actually surprised that the US military industrial complex (MIC) is not screaming bloody murder about some of this. They stand to lose sales of replacement weapons for those sent to Ukraine, to lose support contracts for F-16's, and to lose a whole lot more if the US pulls out of NATO. Even if the US does not pull out of NATO, the NATO countries have already started investing in their own defense industries, which is going to severely cut into US MIC profits. They should be terrified.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by apelapan on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:57PM (#43314324)
SAMP/T exists and is allegedly better than Patriot.

I don't think there are any particular weapon types for which there is no qualified European alternative. Very many systems are however designed around some amount of American components. Even if there are locally produced, reasonably equivalent versions of those components, you can't just swap them out without major redesign work.

For example the license-manifactured jet engines used in the Saab 39 Gripen. If Trump/Musk pulls the plug on support for those, it will be an epic headache to rebuild around some other engine. Not quite designing a new plane from scratch, but very major rework.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by CapricornNoble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:34PM (#43314623)
> I don't think there are any particular weapon types for which there is no qualified European alternative.

Strategic bombers and fifth-generation multi-role aircraft are definitely missing. You could maybe convert A400Ms using a Rapid-Dragon style system into an adequate B-52/Tu-95/H-6N-like bomber, but it wouldn't be a modern penetration bomber like the B-1 and certainly not like the B-2 or B-21. The arguably best European fighter is the French 4.5+ gen Rafale. It's damn good but lacks the stealth of the F-22 and J-10, and the sensor fusion of the F-35.

Maybe also add heavy-lift helicopters, I don't think Europe produces anything in the class of the CH-53/CH-46 and definitely not the Mi-26, but a good-enough big heli is a much easier engineering problem compared to the other two aforementioned equipment categories.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rapjr9 on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:45PM (#43325092)
Stealth is losing its effectiveness with new VHF targeting radars that can track stealth aircraft. Maybe EU sensor fusion algorithms are not as advanced as in the F-35? They certainly must have some kind of sensor fusion algorithms, if just to create coherent cockpit displays of what is going on in an airspace. Maybe they lack cooperative sensor fusion across multiple aircraft? Are bombers still effective any more? I know they are being used by Russia to launch stand-off weapons, but isn't a long range missile as good as or better than having a bomber? Maybe the modern way to think of a bomber is as a reusable missile first stage so the missiles can be smaller and cheaper. Actually flying bombers over cities/bases and dropping bombs no longer happens, does it? Stealth in a bomber buys you nothing if the bomber is directly above you because the cross section becomes enormous. Maybe precision glide-bombs are cheaper than surface to surface missiles. I think if an army had a choice they'd rather have many S-S missiles rather than many glide bombs and a few bombers. The missiles would be much more versatile, as long as they had enough of them.

I have yet to see a good analysis of the tradeoffs between big expensive weapons and many cheap drone weapons. It seems possible that very soon the big expensive weapons will be seen as too expensive and less capable. Ukraine is making millions of drones, maybe when the are making tens of millions they'll care less about conventional weapons. Seems like making lots of drones could help the EU scale up quickly without a lot of research and at lower cost.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by holoduke on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:02PM (#43314361)
The US has so many options to bully Europe. What about turning off cloud providers and other services like word, excel etc. Or restricting hardware like GPUs or other consumer stuff. There are a thousand options to bring europe to its knees. And there is nothing Europe could do.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bamboozled on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:42PM (#43315601)
Or restricting hardware like GPUs or other consumer stuff.

Look up ASML, make America great again :)

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by nebula8804 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:30PM (#43316414)
Without Cymer (based in San Diego) ASML is nothing.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bamboozled on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:32PM (#43316428)
ASML acquired Cymer in 2013 to accelerate the development of extreme ultraviolet (EUV) semiconductor lithography. Based in San Diego, California, Cymer was founded in 1986 by two college friends Robert Akins and Richard Sandstrom to develop laser and lithography light source technology for the semiconductor industry.

I can't imagine whatever Cymer is doing is completely hidden from the parent company and that it's non-replicatable anywhere else in the world?

Maybe there is some way the IP is blocked from ASML on national security grounds or something, I don't know, but what I do know, is their mutual destruction for the sake of some crusade against something ridiculous like "the woke mind virus" is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

There has been zero reason given for this attack on Europe.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by nebula8804 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:29PM (#43316744)
>I can't imagine whatever Cymer is doing is completely hidden from the parent company and that it's non-replicatable anywhere else in the world?

I mean this is technology that is not in textbooks and is so specialized that China of all groups have yet to replicate it and have been trying like its life or death(because it is).

>Maybe there is some way the IP is blocked from ASML on national security grounds or something, I don't know, but what I do know, is their mutual destruction for the sake of some crusade against something ridiculous like "the woke mind virus" is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

The technology was originally developed by the US Research labs. The acquisition was only approved by the US government given certain stipulations: namely the US can tell the Dutch to do whatever they want when it comes to chip tech using their research. Thats why when the US phones up the Dutch to block sales to China, they dutifully complied. I would argue that it is pretty reasonable. The US put in the effort to develop these innovations, then gave up the freedom to commercialize it (to the complaints of some US politicians) because the Dutch had other necessary components ready to go.

It remains to be seen how the Dutch will now react given current realities but im sure there is a lot the US government can do to damage ASML if it came to that so surely that much be in the calculations.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bamboozled on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:11AM (#43317194)
I suspect given the right amount of money they can have access to whatever is required.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gxnxcxcx on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:09PM (#43315810)
The beatings will continue until... LibreOffice finishes downloading?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bamboozled on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:40PM (#43315582)
I'm actually surprised that the US military industrial complex (MIC) is not screaming bloody murder about some of this.

You know the announcement that the US is supplying weapons to Russia and potentially even North Korea isn't that far off don't you?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bambax on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:36PM (#43314139)
Yes the US may have a second civil war coming. The good guys won the last one; they should win this one too, but it may take some time. In the end though they should go for a "reconciliation"; MAGA will show no mercy -- the good guys shouldn't either.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by refurb on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:21PM (#43315445)
According to HN seems like we’re going to have a civil war ever 4 years.

I guess we’ve been lucky so far?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by nebula8804 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @10:34PM (#43316442)
70% of the country is fat/obese. If its going to happen, it might end up looking comical: angry people of walmart riding around in their scooters then deciding to go back home: this civil war stuff is too much effort, whats on Netflix?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by swat535 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:23PM (#43314536)
No one should have placed their trust in the U.S to begin with.

Let's not forget that American history is riddled with interventionist failures, from Afghanistan to Vietnam, and CIA-backed operations that destabilized the Middle East and Africa, leaving behind suffering and chaos.

Meanwhile, American corporations have shown blatant disregard for local laws, privacy, and security while exploiting loopholes to dodge taxes, further eroding global trust. Europe literally had to fine them millions, just to get them to start paying _minimum_ attention..

The recent instability in American and the division between its own citizens has exacerbated the issue and now with Trump, I believe it has reach new heights, even causing conflict with its (arguably) closest ally and loving neighbor: Canada.

As a Canadian, it saddens me to write this, because I have nothing but love for American people.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by xnx on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:10PM (#43315360)
There is no sophisticated chess game being played here. These people are stupid as they are vindictive. No one in the US will benefit from this.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bamboozled on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:20PM (#43315439)
Imagine how many people are going to die from this. It's quite sickening to think about.

The president of peace who is not interested in war, but something much crueler, extortion and retribution which seems to be positioning the world for a real WW3. Not a Fox news theortical "Biden" inspired one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy83r93l208o

"Poland announces military training plan for all men"

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wakawaka28 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:47PM (#43315649)
Anyone you buy equipment from can withdraw support. The US would only withdraw support if you turn against them, same as any other country selling such equipment.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by spookie on Sunday March 09, 2025 @09:29PM (#43315980)
Oh, Ukraine "turned against" the US. When did that happen exactly?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by brokenmachine on Monday March 10, 2025 @12:14AM (#43316955)
They didn't even wear a suit!! And when was the last time they said thank you??
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wakawaka28 on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:48PM (#43325148)
Zelenskyy is the highest paid actor ever.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by brokenmachine on Monday March 10, 2025 @06:43PM (#43326965)
He's done a fantastic job acting like a leader who wants to prevent his people being genocided.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wakawaka28 on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @09:56AM (#43332502)
Too bad it's an ACT!
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by wakawaka28 on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:40PM (#43325024)
When the US decided to end the war, and Ukraine kept trying to escalate. This has been going on for a while.