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Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:16PM (#43311256)
risk of war going hot aside, the long term effect of this is fantastic for the rest of the world's industries

AWS, GCP and Azure looked unbeatable a month ago

but today, if you're a government official in the UK, Poland or Germany, would you be recommending AWS as your cloud provider?

absolutely not

they now have massive geopolitical risks associated with them due to being under the control of the increasingly unstable and authoritarian US regime that will sacrifice 80 years of foreign policy and soft power for a soundbite on fox news

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ramoz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:59PM (#43311814)
> if you're a government official in the UK, Poland or Germany, would you be recommending AWS as your cloud provider?

They don't. Sovereign cloud in EU has been progressing for a few years now.

Such that some of your mentioned "unbeatable" hyperscalers have already been positioning (e.g. ceasable infrastructure), and some interesting new players on the block. As well as old benefiting from the related market positions: https://www.oracle.com/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:07PM (#43311912)
the "sovereign" label from Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle was always a lie, for auditors check boxes

they are not sovereign because they're running software developed by a company liable to coercion by the regime

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by Sammi on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:32PM (#43312792)
US companies are required by US law to disclose data to US authorities when requested - no matter where in the world they operate.

Doesn't matter if it is a EU subsidiary. The US parent company must abide by US law and give US authorities the data.

EU citizens cannot trust their data in the hands of US companies. No matter if it is on servers in Europe hosted by European subsidiaries.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:45PM (#43313592)
The way they are doing it is entirely air gapped systems, run by totally independent companies (not subsidiaries, totally separate legal entities owned and run by other people) that are effectively licensing the software.

So the US legal system can say "give us this data" but they don't have access as they are on another company's servers in another company's data center operated by another company's staff.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:00PM (#43313758)
> So the US legal system can say "give us this data" but they don't have access as they are on another company's servers in another company's data center operated by another company's staff.

US institutions don't hesitate to demand their companies to implement secret backdoors in their hardware or software, as evidenced by Snowden's leaks (for Cisco routers) and the Lavabit shutdown (mail company ordered to implement a tap on their clients' data).

Sure, you can have all you described, but how are updates vetted?

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Monday March 10, 2025 @07:23AM (#43319270)
Yeah it is a risk, but so is it a risk for anything. Can you really trust the CPU, RAM, BIOS, USB-C cable etc on your desk? Maybe those have backdoors too?

But that is adversarial and is to be expected.

At least for these sort of cooperative partnerships that I am aware of in enterprise, there are typically provisions in contracts for code-access, verifiable builds, ability to reject updates and so on and so on. I don't know if these provisions exist in the sovereign cloud contracts that the cloud companies are building, but I would be really surprised if they went to all this trouble replicating Azure/GCP/etc in entirely air-gapped data centers with duplicated staff and hardware and all that, but don't bother to vet the code they get!

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sebazzz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:23PM (#43314019)
If that is the case, how can I manage my EU Azure instances via the regular Azure Portal, yet US-Microsoft not having any access?
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by mattlondon on Monday March 10, 2025 @07:17AM (#43319218)
I think just having servers in an azure data center in the EU is different from proper sovereignty products.

These sovereignty products I don't think are just a check-box you can tick to get it, they're separate things and probably cost the earth too.

Only officially public one that I know of: e.g. https://www.s3ns.io/en (but I hear whispers of others)

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rurban on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:38AM (#43317305)
The US state just ask the UK GHCQ to get the data to them instead. That's what they already do for decades, and likewise the GHCQ gets the US data. Under the national security umbrella, so they'll deny any data exchanges. With Germany the figure is known to be 10%. With the UK the figure is 100%.

The EU should really fight these illegal circumventions

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by formerly_proven on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:46PM (#43312973)
Yeah it's a 100% checkbox exercise explicitly designed to only satisfy the letter of the law.

Unfortunately critical infrastructure providers flock to that, though there are some exceptions.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sudoshred on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:34PM (#43313469)
Disagree, location matters. It should be technically feasible to implement a code freeze (in software, or hardware) in a sovereign system when external partners’ motives become questionable. That being said in all likelihood that capability is cost prohibitive (speculation), but still co-location is a pre-requisite.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by bakuninsbart on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:28PM (#43313408)
Cloud is going be far easier to transition for most companies compared to Office, Browsers, OS and Hardware. There are basically no non-american competitors, and so many companies deeply relying on the tech don't have the IT capacity to implement something OSS like Linux.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whymeogod on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:47PM (#43313615)
Yes, but if the government were to spend say 10% of their GPD on defense and infrastructure (Hi, German!), some of this spending might be in grants/tax breaks to help companies make this transition.

I think you underestimate what a capitalist system can accomplish, and how quickly.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by matt-p on Sunday March 09, 2025 @08:07PM (#43315344)
"Sovereign cloud" is AWS/G-Cloud/Oracle/Azure, but promising to put your data in London if you're the British state, or Frankfurt if you're German and so on...

It's a cute little badge that does very very little to address the real concerns.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by hnaccount_rng on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:00PM (#43313125)
One would guess. But at least German's cyber security agency.. Well, if you read German: https://www.heise.de/news/Google-und-BSI-arbeiten-an-sichere...
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:01PM (#43312449)
It isn't fantastic on net, although it could be a net benefit for those industries that compete directly with (former?) American strengths. The other industries will no longer benefit from the highly competitive offerings of US cloud providers, which are for now, better and cheaper than the alternatives.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by marcuschong on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:58PM (#43312419)
Even I, the founder of a small startup outside the US, caught myself considering things I never would have before.

Just last month, I had to change my dedicated server provider and was genuinely concerned about hosting my websites on US-based entities. Would Trump impose a tariff to antagonize my country and president? I don't have the resources to keep changing providers and migrating my services.

I ended up hosting locally.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by sidibe on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311829)
This has been slowly coming so now they are offering the entire data center stack to be operated by European companies in European owned datacenters
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by dh2022 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:43PM (#43311613)
AWS and Azure have regional data centers in each one of the countries. Data in EU stays in EU. The CAPEX risk is entirely borne by US companies while being operated by locals following local laws. These states can easily nationalize these data centers if, say, US does something really bad to them. So the geopolitical risk for using AWS or Azure seems low to me.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gpm on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311826)
The idea that we (Canada, any EU country, etc) can "easily nationalize" data centers running on bespoke hardware that we do not have a supply chain for, bespoke software which we do not control or have the source to, running workloads for customers as dictated by business relationships with a (now hostile) foreign company, with the descriptions of those workloads almost certainly stored in said hostile foreign companies local (i.e. foreign to us) servers... is absurd.

It's even more absurd to suggest that this can be done in response to the US becoming more hostile than they are today. By the time they are more hostile, we're talking about open hostilities. It's only safe to assume that they will have exfiltrated all the data they are interested in, and then sabotaged or destroy as much of the hardware as possible (as can be done remotely), making the data center next to worthless. And prior to nationalization it was "their data-center", they were entirely within their "rights" to sabotage and destroy it.

The time to migrate away from data-centers to minimize geo political risk is now, not when the current data centers operators are actively trying to deal damage.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by j0057 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:56PM (#43311776)
'Data stays in EU' is not true: the US CLOUD act means that American law enforcement and intelligence agencies can and do access data stored in data centers operated by American companies, whether or not they are on American soil.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by gatienboquet on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:04PM (#43311891)
If you have local warrants.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by ahakki on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:38PM (#43312230)
IIRC the US-UK CLOUD Act Agreement extended the jurisdiction of each parties warrants onto the other parties territory.

I have not looked at the US-EU agreement.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:03PM (#43313796)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat...

You don't need an agreement.

Tthe EU commission has tried to create schemes bypassing the issue, and twice they were dismantled by the EU supreme court.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by worik on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:32PM (#43312169)
> If you have local warrants

To obey local laws

The USA is going "unlawful", so the risks are technical and real. Local laws do not apply

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by rschoultz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:17PM (#43312017)
Similar to that jets effectively would be grounded the second that the US decides they would not be exportable to a former ally, my guess is that not many would, in this scenario, believe a former US owned AWS region in Europe to operate completely autonomously to the degree that it can be “easily” nationalized.

But long before that, I believe there will be other noticeable effects. As someone working in a medium sized European company, with substantial investments across private infrastructures, AWS, GCP and some Azure, I can testify to that since last couple of weeks the Public Cloud Exit strategies around having services being prepared is a very hot topic. This concerns both existing services preparations as well as enforcing standards and configurations for new services.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by poisonborz on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:58PM (#43311800)
What does the hardware give you? These datacenters are dependent on US teams, US processes using US maintained software. It's just a bunch of fast deprecating assets, which would need a full reinstall by a team of an AWS-like entity built from ground up.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by blibble on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:01PM (#43311840)
this is the same tired argument as to why conventional forces are redundant if you have nuclear weapons, due to MAD

the enemy will never put you into a position where the rational thing to do is to launch your nukes (nationalise their data centres)

but they will push and push up against that line

the way to deal with this is gradual decoupling, ideally backed up by legislation and government subsidy

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:45PM (#43311644)
The risk isn't geopolitical but economic decoupling. American tech valuations will take a bath.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:19PM (#43312032)
Who cares about tech stocks? Have a look at what happens when the dollar loses it's status as reserve currency.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:44PM (#43312955)
Almost all of the S&P gains have been tech stocks.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:37PM (#43313499)
Like I said, go have a look at what happens when we lose reserve status and get back to me about how what you just said is in any way relevant. Parenthetically bullshit like this is why I invest in real estate.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by throwaway48476 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:17PM (#43313945)
See what happens to real estate when the boomers start dying.

The reserve status is overblown. The question is if not the USD what asset would reserves go into. Certainly not the yuan with china's currency controls.

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by forgetfreeman on Sunday March 09, 2025 @11:36PM (#43316775)
Lol you want to know what happens to real estate when the boomers start keeling over en masse? Blackrock et al increase their rental portfolio, rent and land prices continue to rise. What, you think the largest hedge funds on the planet made a mistake when they started investing in residential real estate? Check your assumptions.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:00PM (#43311832)
Nationalization of foreign assets occurs at an extreme level of hostility that stable European governments would have no chance of doing, unless it had been done first by the other side. It is the kind of thing that happened in Venezuela.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by worik on Sunday March 09, 2025 @02:37PM (#43312222)
> Nationalization of foreign assets is an extreme level of hostility that stable European governments would have no chance of doing

I see the point. But I would not underestimate the grit of Europeans when backed into a corner, like this

The USA a Europe had very friendly relations for decades, that has changed overnight.

All bets are off

Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by whatshisface on Sunday March 09, 2025 @03:03PM (#43312473)
As a reference point, the US has not nationalized Russian or Chinese national's assets. Nationalization is much worse than poor diplomatic relations, on a scale of retaliation it is close to war.
Re:US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s by pyrale on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:08PM (#43313834)
You may have missed the point where Trump is threatening to annex land ruled by Denmark.