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Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by sjsdaiuasgdia on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:54AM (#43253875)
The disruption is (part of) the point.

Degrading the ability of government employees to do their jobs leads to greater inefficiency and more failure, which can then be pointed at to validate assertions that government isn't efficient and produces bad outcomes.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by selykg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:04AM (#43253995)
Absolutely insane that this is what we've come to. It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want. We are regressing this country so rapidly that we are likely to become one of those shithole countries the president so loudly proclaimed Haiti, El Salvador and others were.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by philistine on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:15AM (#43254112)
The is exactly a move the people in power in those troubled countries will use to maintain control over government.

It used to be that the US government had pride in its own professionalism. The US is now acting like the countries it loves to destabilize.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by palata on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:29AM (#43254293)
> The US is now acting like the countries it loves to destabilize.

Ironically, it's destabilising itself on its own.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by jgilias on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:52AM (#43254584)
That’s what the successful decades long Russian psyop would want you to believe.

I’m not talking primarily about agent Krasnov allegation from a top Kazakh ex-spook (though that is an actual possibility), but about the well known Russian influence operations by financing what used to be extremists (both far-right and far-left) across the West.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by palata on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:23PM (#43259914)
Well, Russian psyop has brought the US to destabilise themselves on their own. The people elected Trump.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by iwontberude on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:38AM (#43254388)
I mean it sorta gave Russia a reason to attack us in the only way they can. Their super power is corruption.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by anonzzzies on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:40AM (#43254406)
Trump & Musk will walk out trillionaires, so they couldn't care less.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:52AM (#43254575)
Trillionaires over the ashes, worth it I suppose.

And one day they'll get into an accident, run into the wrong person, or die of old age and then what? Their legacy will be AI generated gold statues and maybe their name on a building.

If they ctually used that wealth to advance the human race (on the ground, not a hypothetical but infeasible future on another planet) that'd be another matter. A percentage of Musk's theoretical wealth can solve every American's financial trouble, give them an education, and make the US great again. But that means giving some of it away and they may need it for... What, anyway? What does Musk use his money for besides buying companies and spawning babies against their will?

At least MBS (an autocrat whose wealth and country are one) spends his money on stupidly large building and opulence like The Line and whatnot, which will either make the UAE the center of world wealth and prosperity, or which will be interesting to archeologists in 2000-4000 years.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by anonzzzies on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:57AM (#43254640)
> And one day they'll get into an accident, run into the wrong person, or die of old age and then what? Their legacy will be AI generated gold statues and maybe their name on a building.

But that's the problem of the 'capitalist west' (i'm not sure what is better or what would work); everyone is out for short term gain. Most people care about themselves and some of their close family/friends, but in the end, they couldn't give a flying f if the entire planet implodes when they die. We should be planning on a 2000 year timeline as humanity but instead we plan on 4-8 years instead. So far (but that might be reading the wrong propaganda), China seems to have a plan beyond 4 years and beyond Xi's life and not be in such a neckbreaking hurry of breaking everything over a few years more or less.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by csomar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:49AM (#43255363)
If the US collapses, Trump & Musk will be worth 0.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by palata on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:34PM (#43257686)
Let's hope they go to jail before the US collapses.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:51AM (#43254566)
> Trump & Musk will walk out trillionaires

Or in jail. We’re not at the coup stakes of life and death, but we’re also like two months into this Presidency. (For what it’s worth, Trump isn’t currently being coup-ish. That’s been left to the pretender.)

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by anonzzzies on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:54AM (#43254604)
Which is why they are pushing so hard/fast; they need to destroy the right things to make sure they cannot be stopped.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by jordanb on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:12AM (#43254814)
It doesn't look like they're targeting the right things, given how much they've put into going after the FAA, NHTSA and NOAA. Not exactly dark-state power centers. Rather, they're people who've pissed of Elon specifically.

It seems like they're spending 30% of effort on the areas that are likely to foment a counter-coup and 70% of their time attacking groups they have personal beefs with.

But of course they're not just focusing on the powerless, they're also annoying the powerful enough that I don't see how it ends well for them.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Tadpole9181 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:02AM (#43255554)
Haha, yeah, it's not like the president hasn't put in 3 of the SCOTUS judges who give him a 6/9 majority. Or replaced the chief joint of staff and each respective head of every military branch and each respective judge of each military branch. Or the head of the FBI or the director of the FBI. Or the secretary of defense. It's not like he once ordered protesters to be shot for a photo op and had to be stopped by people in those very positions saying "no". That would be crazy.

It's not like he's stopping aid to Ukraine while ruminating on dropping sanctions on our second largest enemy state and repeating word-for-word Kremlin talking points after having a prior relationship with their criminal enterprises for his real estate and an intelligence community espouse the use of foreign power to influence his election outcomes. That would be nuts.

It's not like he attempted to overthrow the government when he lost an election 4 years ago, then pardoned the violent criminals who were incarcerated for that act. Or outright saying he will ignore judicial rulings from unfavored judges while making executive orders that change explicitly language in the constitution, with an EO making it illegal for his executive branch employees to oppose his interpretation of law and installing Aparachniks in each agency to report those in non-compliance. That's a loony idea.

It's not like he's destroying all trade partnerships with allies and internal infrastructure/manufacturing investments simultaneously. That would be silly.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43254858)
"Stopping" can mean many things.

Reaching the altitude of space is much, much, easier than reaching orbital velocity.

This meant that during the Global War on Terror, people had legitimate questions about if Al Qaida could damage the ISS. The answer then was "no", but amateurs reached the Kármán line in 2004, students in 2019, and the current altitude record holder is 143 km.

I suspect that it is well within the capacity of random drug cartels in the US, Mexico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, Haiti and Jamaica to destroy a Starship during launch, if they so desired.

A functioning US government is a reason not to do that. Nobody in any of those countries will want to risk Musk asking Trump for a favour in the form of a USSOCOM operation.

Destroy the US federal government, and there may well not be an USSOCOM left afterwards. And so far, DOGE has shown zero regard for the value of who they cut, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/03/02/doge-nucl...

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:20AM (#43255801)
Destroy a Starship on the pad? Possible. Destroy a Starship during ascent? That's much harder.

There are two problems: You have to have enough greater acceleration that you can catch it, and you have to have good enough targeting (and maneuverability) to actually hit it. Those are highly non-trivial problems.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:34AM (#43256936)
You don't have to catch it from behind, just put yourself in it's path and let Starship's own kinetic energy cause the damage with your own velocity being nearly stationary vs the ground at the time.

Aiming is one of the easier things: huge target, multi-gigwatt heat signiature.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:01PM (#43259267)
> Aiming is one of the easier things: huge target, multi-gigwatt heat signiature

You’re describing boost-stage missile intercept. It’s incredibly hard.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:55PM (#43259719)
For strategic use against ICBMs, yes.

For an extremely well advertised launch into a predetermined flight path of something which isn't even trying to hide its signature and where you can watch the livestream of the countdown?

Perhaps I'm still underestimating the challenge, but I think boost stage vs Starship is a much less of a challenge than boost stage vs. an actual weapon.

But yeah, given your background, if you say I'm wrong, I know to defer to you on this.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by orwin on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:13AM (#43255713)
The fact that Musk will probably end up like Hugenberg if nothing changes doesn't make me jump in joy. 2 of every 5 people living in the US don't deserve it (the fifth who voted against and the fifth who can't vote), and I'm quite sad that they will have to bear with it for at least a few months (it took 6 months for Hugenberg to lose his empire and power, but I don't see the long knives happening in the US in the future, so it might take longer). At least the week-long pogrom didn't get a pretty name this time and was quite limited thanks to activists and pissed of neighbours. USians are a lot of things, maybe too passive at times, but cowards they are not.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hnthrow90348765 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:32AM (#43254315)
Well, Russia is destabilizing the US and winning which is why I think we're acting like that. And it seems all of our military and counterintelligence capabilities can't stop it. Too much offense, not enough defense, it seems.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by peppers-ghost on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:01AM (#43254699)
I'm not even sure it's true Russia is doing this. I think our elected officials might just be really stupid on their own.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by inetknght on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:12AM (#43254815)
They can be really stupid on their own and it can also be Russia who's got their buttons labeled and is pushing them as needed for the dance recital. Except the recital was 4 years ago.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hnthrow90348765 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:12AM (#43254823)
It's going to be difficult to get more of a smoking gun than a plan to drop sanctions and ceasing offensive cyber operations against Russia, as well as the US's lopsided Ukrainian peace deal and pulling financial support for Ukraine.

Russia has no military advantage against ours, so there is no reason to placate them due to a threat of war (nukes excluded here, unless Russia has rapidly outpaced us). The only thing that's left is the relationship between the leaders themselves.

If Trump were truly interested in isolationism, he'd instead have simply pulled support for Ukraine and not offered to be a part of negotiations, but many more things were offered for no obvious gain to us.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by gloosx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#43255211)
>Russia has no military advantage against ours

Recent battle experience is kind of an advantage.

Russia is running a full-scale war against US and NATO weaponry in Ukraine for three years, studying it and refining its tactics.

What was the last battle for USA? Houthis in Yemen? Few airstrikes and limited engagements.

It is very naive to believe Putin doesn’t want to cripple the US economy or that war is not a real threat. The US is critically dependent on semiconductors, and TSMC is much closer to Russia than to America. Think it through.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by kasey_junk on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:48AM (#43255352)
The US has perhaps the most battle hardened military in the history of the world. It’s had real combat deployments continually for going on 25 years.

At best you can suggest it would be too allocated to counter insurgency but combined arms battles is the heart of American doctrine and its shown its value in Ukraine not its weakness.

I think there are real questions about US military composition, particularly its navy, but battle experience is not a problem.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ryandrake on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:43AM (#43256127)
The US military might be battle-hardened and ready for war, but the US public is not. The public is soft and fragile and totally unready for the sacrifices and losses that come from a serious war where we're not an overwhelming force against a tiny Middle Eastern country. The public will not work together collectively to get through a war. We're not going to put up with rationing programs, collecting scrap metal, Victory Gardens, buying war bonds, and take a detour from our careers to work in factories producing ammunition. Hell, half the public couldn't even deal with stay-at-home during COVID and went out protesting when they couldn't eat at the Olive Garden and buy their khakis for a few weeks. Ain't no way we have the intestinal fortitude to put up with a sustained hot war.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by relaxing on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:56AM (#43256343)
We acted quickly post-9/11, buying duct tape and trash bags and taking off our belts at the airport.

You may be surprised how the public can be united against a human enemy. The success of the Right during COVID was turning the outrage away from the invisible virus and onto the humans forcing them to wear a mask.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ryandrake on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:23AM (#43256768)
I'll believe it when I see it, hopefuly we never have to. 9/11 was almost 25 years ago--an entire generation. A lot has changed since then. Today, the public is softer, fatter, less healthy, less sane, lonelier, more individualistic and isolated from each other, more addicted to drugs, more addicted to phones, chronically online, narcissistic, and self-obsessed than they were in 2001. And when it comes to playing well with other people they are less tolerant, angrier, more belligerent, less capable of cooperating, defiant against even minor sacrifices that might help others... We have this "in it for ourselves" religion that wasn't as strong in 2001. I don't think even a land invasion by a foreign aggressor could unify us anymore.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by philistine on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @01:51PM (#43258562)
There is no military in the world without nuclear weapons that can put enough of a fight to require the US public to collect scrap metal. If the US goes to war with a nation with nuclear weapons, what's left of the whole planet's gonna be collecting scrap metal for the next 200 years.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by gloosx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:55AM (#43255450)
You assume that continuous combat deployments automatically translate to full-scale war readiness, but there's a big difference between counterinsurgency operations and peer-to-peer warfare.

The US military has been engaged in conflicts for decades, but most of them involved fighting non-state actors or weaker conventional forces, not a high-intensity war against an advanced military.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by no_wizard on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:40AM (#43256104)
Advanced is doing some heavy lifting.

The US military is far a cut above everything else, in terms of tactical readiness, sheer firepower and especially effective size.

We outspend any other nation - China included of which we spend an estimated 2.5 times more than - and we have been in that lead position for decades, not just years.

While yes, US forces haven’t squared off against conventional militaries of any note in some time, the US military has at least been engaged in real conflict. To my recollection the Chinese military have undertaken no significant military campaigns in the last 20+ years and lack the air & sea power to functionally match anything the US military can throw at it by comparison.

Which leaves ground forces, which is both vulnerable to air power and is effectively the numbers game the Chinese can win outright in a protracted war that escalated to that level, and cyber warfare, which the Chinese have proven to be quite adept at but the US military has been aware and developing counter measures against that for a long time as well

This talking conventionally of course.

China being a nuclear power means it would be unlikely to escalate past a certain point if anyone is acting rationally. There’s no reason you want to give another nuclear power a reason to use those weapons, and certainly the US nuclear arsenal is not one anyone wants to see fired either.

So in all likelihood this continues as a Cold War

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by gloosx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:48AM (#43257123)
>China being a nuclear power means it would be unlikely to escalate past a certain point if anyone is acting rationally.

Well, Russia is a nuclear power, and not everyone is acting rationally. Russia got part of it's own territory occupied now, and some important oil and gas facilities are literally being bombed, not talking about regular cities and homes.

Russian nuclear doctrine is: Russia could launch nuclear weapons in response to an attack on its territory by a non-nuclear-armed state.

Their warheads are still at bay, why is that? I don't believe they will ever fly, because no-one is stupid enough to make the first move, and the war can go on neglecting them.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ffsm8 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:17AM (#43256671)
I agree with the spirit of your statement, I truly believe that the US military is the by far most advanced and well equipped force on earth.

Nonetheless, I feel the need to point out that it's budget is a terrible indicator for that.

I'm not even american and have heard just how massively overcharged everything is that's sold to the US military.

It's entirely possible that i.e. China, that can produce their military equipment could actually be way better equipped then it's budget implies. I don't think that Chinas military has caught up to the US yet, but the military spending feels like a bad comparison considering how differently they're financed.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by philistine on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @01:58PM (#43258638)
Doesn't square with any sort of real data we have. The West have better, and more, of everything. For crissakes, the Germans have artillery that fires while driving full speed with the same precision as any other nation's artillery.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by no_wizard on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:46PM (#43259644)
As the comment from phillistine notes this doesn’t square with known data and I have no evidence to the contrary.

To which I want to add, that even though the DoD modes have its own (and worth addressing) budget process issues they’re at least largely getting what they are paying for in most circumstances as well as continuing to fund R&D at a fairly robust clip.

In the area of defense R&D in particular that large gap in budgetary spending will matter a lot more than building any “well known” military equipment as the next generation will come online faster than other nations can keep up without ramping their own spending

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by kasey_junk on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:00AM (#43256409)
Russia has proven it’s not a peer is the issue.

Prior to invading Ukraine one might have thought so, but the experience there shows the challenge in thinking that.

Meanwhile the last time the US military deployed to a traditional battlefield the opponent army lasted a matter of months.

Lord willing we’ll never know about these hypotheticals.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by 3D30497420 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:55AM (#43255452)
It would probably depend a lot on the type of conflict. The US would almost certainly have air-superiority, which would have a significant difference. Of course, air-superiority didn't "win" the US wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, but those were more guerilla-style wars with a somewhat (at least) hostile larger population. A US-Russia conflict would probably look pretty different. Or it would just go nuclear, in which case... well, so much for tactics.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by VBprogrammer on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:18AM (#43256685)
I think you have to be careful about assuming the US would have air superiority. It doesn't take a lot for what, on paper, looks like a superior air force to turn out to be not fit for purpose.

The famous example is the F4 Phantom getting beat in dogfights against the Mig 21 in Vietnam. It was mostly solved by changing the tactics and to improvements to later model aircraft.

Obviously dogfights aren't realistic in the modern age but that is just one of many variables which might lead to an unexpected deficit. Robustness, reliability, repairability, availablity of parts, ability to operate out of unimproved airfields, using poor qualify fuels etc.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by gloosx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:01AM (#43255532)
I think future US-Russia conflict will revolve around semiconductors, and you know where it will take place. It would not be possible to just use nukes or airstrike it to the ground, because factories need to stay. Also, a nasty marriage of convenience between China and Russia would work perfectly for the case, what then?
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by no_wizard on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:52PM (#43259695)
And the Russians had to get re-enforcement from North Korea to bolster the bodies they’re losing to a significantly smaller force.

Western military tactics are still working well against Russian commanders, but they being simply larger population wise, can if they’re willing, win a war of attrition simply because the Ukraine doesn’t have the bodies or internal resources to fight forever. It’s the same strategy general Grant used to decisively win the US civil war

Putin really waited out the US election. For reasons I can’t seem to grok Trump wants to ally with the world’s dictators. He’s proven himself a reliable ally to Putin at this point.

Had Trump lost the election I imagine we would see Russia seriously considering or even starting its withdrawal from the conflict.

Back to the military bit again: there is no way the war in the Ukraine is showing anything other than how vulnerable and poorly aged the equipment of the Russian military is and how their tactics have not improved much if any since the 1980s

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by brookst on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:28AM (#43255064)
Can’t be sure, but wow does all of the evidence point that way.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:46AM (#43254494)
They can, but they won't because nobody dares to stick their neck out for fear of losing their job. And that's been going on for decades, the slow dismantling (if there ever was any) of job and income security, to the point where the majority of Americans, including federal workers, are only one or two paychecks away from financial ruin. Nobody wants to lose their job.

Of course, if they get fired and there's nothing else for them to do, there will be uprisings.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:50AM (#43254549)
> Nobody wants to lose their job

There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct.

To the extent anyone has received job protection, it’s by getting politically fired and then seeking court protection.

So no, this is base cowardice and a lack of patriotism. Not rational action.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hansvm on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:41AM (#43255259)
> There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct.

The first firings were all people who knew a guy who knew a guy who wronged Trump. With that kind of retaliatory example, do you not think openly trying to course-correct would result in being fired?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by close04 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:17AM (#43254879)
As a matter of personal character, the people who would be more likely to stand up and shout or protest vigorously in today’s situation are the people which society generally considers obnoxious and disruptive.

So in each workplace most were already marginalized or learned to hide these traits for their benefit. There are way more people in the ‘flight’ than the ‘fight’ camp.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ljm on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:23AM (#43256767)
To say that Russia is destabilising the US basically takes the agency of the US out of the equation. Makes the US (the so-called greatest country in the world, so-called leaders of the free world) unaccountable for its own actions.

The US is destabilising itself with the help of Russia.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by philistine on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:07PM (#43259324)
Bingo. Most americans are at the phase where they are trying to absolve themselves of necessary responsibility.

I don't have to pick up a sign to try and defend my country, it's Russia's fault.

I don't have to fight against my president to preserve democracy, it's Russia's fault.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by bananapub on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:05AM (#43254746)
Russia is surely involved, but it's pushing on an open door - there's a huge streak of the American right that actually wants this massive catastrophe to befall the US and for the US to become ungovernable and largely ungoverned.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hedora on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:37AM (#43255190)
Those people get their news from Russian propaganda outlets.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by bananapub on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:57AM (#43256365)
no, they don't, this is a very dumb thing to think.

there's a medium sized chunk the American Right, which has now won, who unrelated to Russia or China or whatever actually want the US to become sci-fi dystopia of authoritarian christo-white-nationalism.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by iwontberude on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:37AM (#43254382)
People like to say that Obamas jokes about Trump got him to run. But I wonder if Obama never helped Ukraine keep their democracy if we still would have ours.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by karmajunkie on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:44AM (#43254473)
the first amendment has become a national security threat, it would seem…
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by egypturnash on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:50AM (#43254550)
"Krasnov" is doing exactly what the Russians hired him to do.
[dead]
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Volundr on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:22AM (#43254957)
Plenty of dictators were elected. Someone being elected does not make them good. And Musk was not elected.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by lokar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43254857)
Putin was elected Orban was elected
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by _heimdall on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:11AM (#43254805)
> It used to be that the US government had pride in its own professionalism

It used to be that voters actually cared about professionalism, principles, and critical thinking.

Campaigning on really any of those doesn't work these days, its not surprising that our government has those same shortcomings.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by readthenotes1 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:05PM (#43259799)
"It used to be that the US government had pride in its own professionalism. "

The phrase "good enough for government work" has never been a positive in my lifetime.

But I'm sure the Dulles brothers were proudful...

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Aurornis on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:13AM (#43254088)
> It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want.

It is not what people want. The Trump administration’s popularity is already below 50%, and much lower among independents (around 30% depending on the poll).

Many people aren’t yet aware of what’s happening. A lot of the electorate is getting their news from filtered sources like Fox News or various far right media outlets. Joe Rogan has gone all in on praising Musk and Trump. People who get their information from Trump are being fed lies that are obvious to anyone not inside the bubble. They don’t know what’s happening because their heroes are telling them it’s all necessary and good.

When you start polling people on the actual actions taken, things being cancelled, and consequences the approval is very low.

Anecdotally, I have some extended family who were very pro-Trump. One of them recently discovered that her job was funded through a federal grant, and now it’s likely going to be cut even though she doesn’t work for the government directly. They also discovered that one of their family members is covered by Medicaid through an avenue that’s looking like it will be cut. They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed. It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by silverquiet on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:17AM (#43254132)
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.

I suspect that other scapegoats can be found to blame for their problems; as you say, their news sources will offer them all sorts of filters to deflect blame from the obvious source.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by xnx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:47AM (#43254506)
> I suspect that other scapegoats can be found to blame for their problems

Woke, Biden, DEI, Obama, trans, Hillary, Soros, gays, illegals, fluoride. Take your pick.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by CoastalCoder on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:57AM (#43255482)
Sounds like the inspiration for a catchy but very dark Billy Joel song.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by brookst on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:33AM (#43255142)
You forgot vaccines, education, NATO, porn, the courts, Canada, women, and renewable energy.

My biggest mystery is how these people have the energy to hate so many things so deeply. It sounds exhausting.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:01AM (#43255539)
They don’t hate constantly, only when thinking about politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate

> The political purpose of the Two Minutes Hate is to allow the citizens of Oceania to vent their existential anguish and personal hatred toward politically expedient enemies: Goldstein and the enemy super-state of the moment. In re-directing the members' subconscious feelings away from the Party's governance of Oceania and toward non-existent external enemies, the Party minimises thoughtcrime and the consequent subversive behaviours of thoughtcriminals.

The only thing it gets wrong is the variety of Goldsteins.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by martythemaniak on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:23AM (#43254970)
> Take your pick.

Now now, there's no need to choose, you can just blame all of them all at once!

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by devinprater on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:18AM (#43254150)
Yes, this is how blind people who voted for Trump are. Surely they can't get rid of the ADA...
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by selykg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:19AM (#43254155)
> Anecdotally, I have some extended family who were very pro-Trump. One of them recently discovered that her job was funded through a federal grant, and now it’s likely going to be cut even though she doesn’t work for the government directly. They also discovered that one of their family members is covered by Medicaid through an avenue that’s looking like it will be cut. They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed. It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.

I keep hearing stuff like this, but it doesn't seem to be widespread enough to seem to matter, at least in my circle. There's this whole topic of conversation where there's this voter regret thing. I'm in Michigan, so there's been a few of these I've seen proclaiming the Muslim community are having regrets voting for Trump (it was a big thing around the election due to the whole Gaza situation, because voting for Harris was apparently not going to be enough). But I am worried I'm just seeing bullshit propaganda and these types of things aren't actually what's happening because everyone I've talked to seem to be content with the way things are going. It's incredibly weird.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by baggachipz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:35AM (#43254353)
They will always refuse to admit they were wrong or that they were duped. The reasons for hardships and failure will always be due to the group of "others" stymieing their progress. The enemy is both cleverly evil and simultaneously feckless. I know some trumpies and they think things are going swimmingly.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Aurornis on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:35AM (#43254362)
All of the news stories about unlikely Trump voters having regrets are just ragebait. Journalists can always find someone for readers to laugh at because they voted for someone who was openly against them, but that’s a different issue.

The real interesting voter regret is when the likely Trump voters start realizing that their guy isn’t who they thought. It’s not going to happen quickly because denial and rationalization can go on for a very long time.

I am starting to see it in some of the VCs and crypto people I know personally and follow on Twitter. The launch of the Trump memecoin went through a rationalization cycle where the crypto people tried to spin it as a good thing, but now nearly all of them have given up and agreed it was a bad move for crypto

One of the loudest pro-Trump VCs in my state has gone from being a cheerleader to asking questions about what DOGE is actually doing. The trigger for him was, strangely enough, Musk having public issues with the parents of two of his children. Something about realizing that he’s not a good family man and father finally broke his illusions of Musk as the perfect hero.

I think it’s little things like this that will start making people ask questions about their heroes. The more topics and agencies they get their hands on, the more people will be impacted and be forced to reconcile their reality with their imagined ideals of this administration.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by mattgreenrocks on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:19AM (#43254914)
Yeah, I'm sick of the "I learned I was wrong the hard way" clickbait that's cropping up everywhere. We are past the time for that.

We need to be building a platform that houses the left and right in order to have a chance at standing up to this. This will be a real litmus test for the US: do we favor our tribal affiliations more than the country that enables us to have those affiliations? Or are we willing to put them aside for the greater good?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by xnx on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:51AM (#43254562)
> now nearly all of them have given up and agreed it was a bad move for crypto

It's not cool anymore when someone else is running the scam

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by epidemiology on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:44AM (#43255302)
Crypto is a technology. Pro-crypto vs anti-crypto is just as stupid as pro-computer vs anti-computers.

We're seeing a moment now where the "pro-crypto" team is bifurcating (really this has always been true but it's more obvious now) into good crypto vs bad crypto. Or mission driven vs profit maximalising. Oversimplifications of a nuanced political, tribal landscape with many many sides but you get the idea.

Democrats being anti all crypto was clearly wrong, attacking the more legitimate parts MORE fiercely than the illegitimate parts. But the flip side is Trump's "crime season" as they call it in crypto twitter, which also sucks. Maybe some day we'll get crypto that is useful, profitable, and designed in a beneficial way. That day is not today.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Octoth0rpe on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:44AM (#43254472)
> I keep hearing stuff like this, but it doesn't seem to be widespread enough to seem to matter, at least in my circle.

It also hasn't fully hit yet. The layoffs are in progress, already awarded grant money is still paying salaries. 3-6 months is when the pain will really begin. Until then, I think a lot of people are still thinking that it either won't really happen to them, or that Trump will somehow make an exception just for their particular federal money pipeline.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by selykg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:50AM (#43254551)
I work as a software engineer in the non-profit sector, within education. It's going to be a wild ride as to whether I have a job or not in a year. We are (almost) entirely dependent on grants. The money we get that isn't from grants is tiny (like less than 1% of our total budget). We applied for a few government grants recently and it sounds to me like they are definitely not something we will be getting now so it's back to the private foundations we have to go to for funding. With all the mixups happening it's going to be interesting to see how private foundations pivot, will non-profits like ours see big grants or will we die because other areas are more important?

On top of that, I am no expert top of the job market software engineer. If I lose this job I am going to be competing against people significantly better than me because so many others have (or will) be losing their jobs. Basically, this is the potential beginning of the end of my career.

Thankfully, I think I'm okay through this year, and probably next... but after that, completely a mystery. And that's only because we have agreements for funding through 2026. There are no guarantees beyond that.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by gryfft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:23AM (#43254206)
> They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed.

Ah, straight from denial into that other stage, more denial

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by explain on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:26AM (#43254244)
> The Trump administration’s popularity is already below 50%

Just under 50% of the population voted for President Trump, so it's a given that "already" the popularity is below 50%.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by NilMostChill on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:31AM (#43254310)
Voting population.

I'm not just being pedantic, it's an important distinction.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by weakfish on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:40AM (#43254405)
50% of the voting population, not general population
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Brybry on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:00AM (#43254687)
USA 2024 population was ~340.1 million (census estimate).

156,302,318 voted (~63.9% of ~244 million eligible voters, extrapolated)

77.3 million voted for Trump (~49.8% of voters).

So that's ~31.6% of eligible voters or ~22.7% of the US population.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by troyvit on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:22AM (#43256744)
Welp, maybe those eligible voters who didn't vote will remember next time that not voting is the same as voting for the winner.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Brybry on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:07PM (#43257374)
I didn't vote. I have various (bad) reasons:

- I live in a deeply partisan state where the outcome was predetermined: a disproportionate amount of those who didn't vote would have to vote in the opposite of those who voted (if I lived in a different state the pressure to vote would have been greater)

- I lack an easy means to get to my polling location and my state makes absentee ballots difficult to get

- I would have probably also needed to do some ID stuff (my ID is currently expired, for reasons)

- Registering to vote puts my name/address/registered party/etc onto easily searchable public websites like https://voterrecords.com/

My reasons aren't great but they're reasons. If there was less friction to voting I would have voted, as I recognize it's an important civic duty.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by troyvit on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:34PM (#43260015)
I was pretty flippant and your reply makes it clear that there's a lot more going on than the apathy I was hinting at. Anybody who cares about democracy should look at those reasons very seriously to see what we can do better (polling locations, difficulty with absentee ballots, privacy issues to say the least).
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dartos on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:29AM (#43254291)
It may not be what people want now, but it is what people voted for.

People voted for tariff and massive day 1 changes and federal cuts.

People wanted a loud strong man president who makes deals.

These actions ARE what people (who voted) wanted… people just didn’t think about the outcome

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by realo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:22AM (#43254951)
Which people?

I hear that it is the same people who voted Donald last time who voted Donald again this time. No others voted for him.

The issue seems to be that many people who are not trumpists did not vote at all.

Maybe i'm wrong, but it seems that if everyone who could vote actually did vote, then Donald would have lost.

So ... maybe he won, but i hardly think he represents the majority is US citizens.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dartos on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:56AM (#43256334)
> Which people?

The 51% of voters that voted for him… (correction: 49.8%)

> I hear that it is the same people who voted Donald last time who voted Donald again this time. No others voted for him.

This is wrong. There were more republican voters this time around than last time.

> The issue seems to be that many people who are not trumpists did not vote at all. Maybe i'm wrong, but it seems that if everyone who could vote actually did vote, then Donald would have lost.

This is a constant issue in the US. Low voter turnout causes seemingly unpopular candidates to win.

Go out and vote, people. Please.

> So ... maybe he won, but i hardly think he represents the majority is US citizens.

Never said it did. But if you don’t voice your opinion when it matters, then your opinion literally doesn’t count.

So, the American people voted for trump and this administration. Either through their vote or their inaction.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:13AM (#43256593)
> The 51% of voters that voted for him…

Nitpick: 49.8%

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by CoastalCoder on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:05AM (#43255593)
The isn't meant as any kind of defense regarding Trump or his supporters, but it seems under-discussed to me:

The Democrats offered a really bad alternative (Biden) for most of the campaign season. Even if you liked his politics, there was (IMHO) legitimate reason to question his mental competence.

My guess is that Trump would have lost if the Democrats had fielded a less-bad alternative.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dartos on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @01:09PM (#43258069)
Both times trump won, this was true. The DNC is just allergic to putting forward candidates that people want to vote for.

Kamala really ran a campaign like someone trying to lose.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by piva00 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:30AM (#43254303)
It can't be only attributed to ignorance, you see many comments here on Hacker News defending it with vitriol I had never experienced on this forum even during Trump's 1st presidency.

Somehow Americans have really bought into it, the lies, the disinformation, the destruction. I cannot understand, the moving targets shift (CRT, immigration, DEI, cancel culture, wokeness, whatever is next) so it isn't about them whatsoever, they are just the distractions being fed to gather support, there's something else much deeper and darker broken in American society that became so obfuscated by these distractions to the point where I have absolutely no fucking idea why half of the country seems to hate everything that brought the USA to the position it had on the global stage.

Perhaps it's just hubris after a very long period of quasi-absolute power, seems like power corrupts not only individuals but whole nations.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:49AM (#43254541)
We know that Russia has run a very long, very extensive disinformation campaign against the west. It might be expected that that extends to HN. Not everything posted here is someone's actual opinion. Some of it is deliberate propaganda and attempts to manipulate.

That's hard to accept, given what HN was once. The difference between ten years ago and last year was noticeable; the difference between last year and this is much starker.

You're in a war, even here.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by piva00 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:33AM (#43255986)
I've become used to check those users comments and, unfortunately, a lot of them have been posting on HN for many years, even before Trump 1.

It can be Russian disinfo but it's definitely not only that.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @09:23AM (#43266780)
Yeah, it's kinda disheartening to be honest.

That being said, the writing was on the wall in 2016, the first time Trump ran, HN (and the anglosphere internet in general) took a sharp dive down in quality, and Covid made it all worse.

I just try to remember that the printing press caused a lot of wars, but over the longer term it lead to a better world.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by acdha on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:56PM (#43261720)
Russian propaganda isn’t magic: rather, the people crafting it are very adept at finding and exploiting existing fault lines and the areas where the major American media and tech companies can be exploited to amplify a message. They aren’t doing anything which, say, Rush Limbaugh wasn’t doing in the pre-Internet era, and it’s not like they aren’t just part of the larger disinformation sphere.

What they did was see the way 9/11 reset what was allowed in mainstream American discourse, and that as conservatives moved into a tightly-managed bubble they were also willing to give up the idea of verifiable facts in favor of what felt right. That created a big weakness for a patient adversary as they didn’t need to try to get people to trust, say, RT but rather pick which existing voices to quietly support or try seeding ideas to.

I think it’s better to treat them like a catalyst or the accelerant on a fire where they didn’t start it but they both made it worse and might not have much control over it at this point.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dfxm12 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:39AM (#43254400)
This is what Trump campaigned on though. This is what he said he'd do. Did people vote for Trump because they thought he was a liar?
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by masfuerte on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:47AM (#43254509)
> Did people vote for Trump because they thought he was a liar?

Yes! I know apparently smart people who voted for Trump because they thought that his more extreme rhetoric was merely intended to wind up the left. Like the first time he got elected. Except that this time he had a plan.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by jgilias on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:57AM (#43254650)
How could they fall for it. I mean, even during the first time it was obvious that he actually meant it, as he did try to enact all the crazy bullshit. The only saving grace was adults in the room around him. Now all the adults are gone.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:12AM (#43254820)
IGs and others stopped him from doing some of the worst and dumbest stuff.

This time he (illegally) fired a bunch of them right out of the gate. The Heritage Foundation wasn't caught off guard (and a bit out in the cold) by his success this time, and backed him with a plan. They did it out in the open, the recruiting and a whole lot of specifics about what they wanted to do and how they were going to do it. It wasn't even close to a secret, you could literally go download and read documents, watch interviews of key figures in front of friendly audiences, that kind of thing.

With the Vance pick, you could also easily spot the Yarvin influence & connections and make some guesses about some things. When Elon started worming his way in, it was clear that side of it wasn't just going to be in the head of a VP who can't personally do much, but was going to have traction.

His voters who are now like "WTF?" need to sit down and have a serious think about how they got conned by someone who was standing under a neon sign with a flashing arrow pointing down at him that read "I am conning you! Signed: Donald Trump". Like I'm not sure it even counts as a con, it was so transparent.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by jgilias on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:20AM (#43254926)
Totally agree. It’s like, I get the hard core MAGA voters. The smart ones knew exactly what they are voting for, and they’re now super elated. The not so smart ones just voted for the movement, and their leader, unlikely to be disappointed by anything he does (read Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt).

Everyone else… yeah.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by VBprogrammer on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:04AM (#43254730)
I enjoy reading the comments explaining how the whole Trump / Vance meeting with Zelensky spat was some epic move in 3D chess.

Meanwhile Trump isn't even able to keep phrases like "rare earth minerals" correct in his head (repeatedly calling them "raw earth"). To be honest 90% of the meeting was him waffling on about how this news organisation was brilliant (because they give him a softball question) and this one was going bankrupt because their rating suck (because they asked a difficult question). You could see Zelensky trying to keep himself from rolling his eyes.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:45AM (#43254480)
But isn't that how Trump campaigned and ran his first presidency? He vomits a stream of random garbage and, if you like him, you pick through it to find the half digested bits you like while ignoring everything else. His opponents do the opposite but, to be fair, it seems like a perfectly reasonable stance to listen to what a person says and assumes they might actually do what they are promising to do.

His "charm" is that he won't do 3/4 of what he says, the difficulty is figuring out which quarter he is going to enact.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by bananapub on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:07AM (#43254759)
he lied over and over during his campaign, e.g. telling people he had no idea what Project 2025 was and that he wasn't going to do any of it.

voters are very very dumb for believing him, but he did lie.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dfxm12 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:54AM (#43255439)
I don't think voters are dumb. The more I talk to Trump voters to understand why they voted how they did, the more it becomes clear that they knew he was serious when campaigning on taking rights away from and making life harder for marginalized people in America, and this is what they voted for, everything else be damned.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by tatersolid on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @06:38PM (#43260929)
Every Trump voter I know wanted exactly one thing: lower taxes. That’s it, at whatever cost. That’s the Republican base.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dfxm12 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:56PM (#43261399)
In some cases, like some small business owners, people living in some states with higher than average taxes, people paid more in taxes during his first term, due to his tax plan limiting deductions. Additionally, the next administration froze tax increases for people making under $400k. Harris campaigned on this as well.

Again, I don't think people are stupid. I do think they'll say one some things in mixed company to hide their racism.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by tatersolid on Thursday March 06, 2025 @05:59AM (#43278710)
> Again, I don't think people are stupid. I do think they'll say one some things in mixed company to hide their racism.

This continued labeling of all fiscal conservatives as racists is a key reason Democrats keep losing to an obviously crazy person. Nobody’s going to vote for the party which calls them a racist.

A lot of fiscal conservatives are “middle class” undecided voters who have mortgages and kids to worry about. Unsurprisingly they voted for the party who promised lower taxes over the one which did nothing but accuse them of racism.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by the_gipsy on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:42AM (#43254432)
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize

It will be far too late. That's why they're going so fast. The damage comes with a huge latency. Perhaps America can be saved and this is nothing but a bump in the ride, I'm no Nostradamus, but this could very well be the end of the Free West.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:53AM (#43254599)
> this could very well be the end of the Free West

Europe seems to be realising it must get its act together. Europe + Canada + the Americas have a hope in hell of containing America if it goes off the rails internationally. (When Trump & Musk tip the economy into recession it will be tempting to drum up a stupid war. My guess would have been Iran. But who the hell knows.)

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hedora on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:01AM (#43255537)
They already allocated funding to deploy the military inside the US in border areas.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by myvoiceismypass on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:57AM (#43254635)
The checks and balances part no longer exists, so definitely feels like it’s over.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by inetknght on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43254850)
> checks and balances part no longer exists

It honestly hasn't existed for decades.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by kamarg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:35AM (#43256951)
Sure it has but only when a Democrat is in office. Look at all the things that Biden/Obama were prevented from doing by the legislative and judicial branches.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hedora on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:43AM (#43255288)
States rights might save us.

If I was a governor of a blue state, I’d be strongly encouraging laid off government workers to work for my state. I’d also be working to eliminate the trade deficit (including federal taxes and spending) with rest of the US.

Why subsidize this crap if it’s not going to lead to economic prosperity, security, or even pretending the constitution still exists?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dfxm12 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:17PM (#43259406)
"States rights" is not going to save us. Conservative think tanks push "state rights" so hard because they know they can get overrepresented in state government via gerrymandering/voter suppression. Anything that slips through the cracks after that can be appealed to a higher court, up to SCOTUS, which they have made sure is full of judges sympathetic to them. A recent example would be SCOTUS overturning the Chevron doctrine and its possible effects on California's environmental rules.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ModernMech on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:49PM (#43262030)
I think California is doing exactly this.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by forgetfreeman on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:05AM (#43254745)
Eh, there's latency in some places sure but a bunch of cuts are going to have rather obvious and seriously negative impacts on the financials around this summer's harvest, and the Ag lobby usually doesn't fuck around. It'll be interesting to see how farm communities are kept in the traces then.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by hedora on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:51AM (#43255394)
Yeah; China’s counter-tariffs on ag start today.

Also, Ontario supplies half the US’s nickel, and is threatening an embargo. That’d shut down a bunch of our factories in short order. They could also cut off electricity supplies to the north, but I get the impression the US grid would mostly absorb that (probably thanks to investment in smart grids for renewables, ironically).

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by anal_reactor on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:02AM (#43254712)
The worst thing about being born in a rich country during prosperity is that every single issue is the worst problem you've ever faced in your life.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:43AM (#43254452)
Tons of voters reverse many of their positions if you explain the issues to them without using the labels they’re used to.

I’m not sure “they could have known, but didn’t bother to learn, and instead voted based on Fox News and talk radio and podcast and Facebook post bullshit” is enough to say they didn’t vote for this. If it is, that’s… kinda usually the case.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by evan_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:33AM (#43255984)
> voters reverse many of their positions if you explain the issues to them without using the labels they’re used to

…and that reversing lasts until the next time they turn on their TV and get reset by Fox News. I used to see it all the time with my parents. Now I just don’t talk to them much.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by RobRivera on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:45AM (#43254477)
The rules of this forum dictate that participants can't make claims of astroturfing, so I won't make that claim.

On a related note, I find it interesting that your comment is being downvoted while contributing to the dialogue productively.

Inference is left as an exercise to the reader.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by CoastalCoder on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:10AM (#43255670)
Wouldn't that be an example of brigading, rather than astroturfing?

Or is brigading considered a kind of astroturfing?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by RobRivera on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:12PM (#43270887)
Depends, brigading can be organic or artifical. Artificial brigading from a campaign of controlled accts would be proper astroturfing.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by pyrale on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:55AM (#43254621)
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.

"If only the Tsar knew"

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by sockp0pp3t on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254676)
Speaking of Rogan, did you listen to the Mike Benz episode? If Benz is gaslighting you have a point, but if Benz is truthful, then you don't.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dataangel on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:30AM (#43254302)
This what a huge chunk of HN wanted! HN was all aboard the Trump train for years and the mods admonished anyone being too critical of other users for it, it's when I wrote off most of the people here as morons.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by matthewaveryusa on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:52AM (#43254574)
That's a bit harsh. Maybe a bunch of political juniors thinking the system needed a rewrite by a bunch of folks foreign to the system. Don't write it off, it could work. Probably not though
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by consteval on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:49PM (#43262497)
It's in an inexperienced engineers blood to demand a full rewrite. I mean, it's just so tempting. Learn from our mistakes, a build a system that solves them! Then, we don't have to wade through the crud on top of crud on top of crud to get simple things done!

But, anyone who has ever been through such a rewrite knows they're usually more trouble than they're worth, and no matter what, you will lose A LOT. Doesn't matter how thorough you are or how many requirements you capture. Most are lost to the ether, never again to be seen... until the exact moment you need them.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by pastor_williams on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:40AM (#43254409)
[citation needed]
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by selykg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:46AM (#43254483)
For what it's worth, while I don't agree with the moron bit of what OP said, I have felt like I have seen HN leaning more pro-Trump. And it does also feel like saying anything critical of him can be heavily downvoted. There really does appear to be a large contingent of pro-Trump people on here, at least in my experience. I don't have citations, just my own experience, so, obviously take it for what it is.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by brookst on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#43255221)
Pay attention to usernames. There are some pro-Trump, pro-Russia people here, but honestly not that many. Maybe six or eight, total. They just tend to post 50 times each in any thread that touches on the subject.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dfxm12 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:58PM (#43257965)
Capital is inherently conservative and this is a website focused around venture capitalism. It makes sense that more than average this website's users/staff would lean towards more conservative politics than a random sample of Internet users. This should be even more clear when you read pg's essays. Of course this has an effect on the moderation, including voting/flagging.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by droopyEyelids on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:34AM (#43254344)
I’ll never forget the Great HN Vote where everyone decided to get on board the Trump Train
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Octoth0rpe on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:46AM (#43254486)
OP didn't say a majority. It's hard to deny that a sizable portion of the tech community is made up of ancap techno-libertarian types; and that the dismantling of the US government is their dream.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by pseudalopex on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:19AM (#43254908)
Saying a group was all aboard a train is not a common way to indicate a minority. And they said they wrote off most of the people here.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by pyrale on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:46AM (#43254488)
> It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want.

I very much doubt this is what people want. But people aren't asked their opinion, and there's a difference between disagreeing and starting an insurrection to prevent a coup.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by lokar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:16AM (#43254870)
A lot of Americans have been getting screwed for 30 years and have little invested in the stability of the system.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Volundr on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:23AM (#43254977)
> have little invested in the stability of the system.

They think they have little invested in the stability of the system.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:42AM (#43255279)
Tons of Trump's most-dedicated supporters appear to be able to afford very expensive trucks and boats and such, and to be able to do stuff like travel to DC to attempt a putsch in the middle of the work week. They're benefitting plenty from the stability of the system. Unfortunately.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alistairSH on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:10AM (#43255677)
Exit polls from the November elections don't bear this out.

The lowest income voters trended towards Harris. As did the highest income voters. Trump's support lies solidly in the middle class.

If somebody is middle-income and thinks they aren't benefiting from a stable government and economy, I'm not really sure what to say... could we collectively do better? Absolutely. Is burning it all to the ground even remotely sensible? No, not even close.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alistairSH on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:08AM (#43255643)
It's been a core tenet of Republican ideology for as long as I've been politically aware (30+ years now). People voting for Republicans are absolutely aware of this - they either explicitly want it, or are willing to accept as a cost of some other policy. Maybe 2026 mid-terms will prove me wrong, but if there isn't a wholesale turn away from the Trump-led GOP, it's safe to assume they're explicitly ok with this stuff.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alsoforgotmypwd on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254683)
America is a third-world country because people stopped caring, stopped reading, and fell for a cult.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Larrikin on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:34AM (#43255163)
Getting into government to make it worse to show that government is bad has been a pillar of the Republican party since Reagan. They just used to pretend about it.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by _DeadFred_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:54PM (#43257924)
Why? Current action is no different than when Private Equity buys a company. The American public asked for the government to be ran like a business, and sadly, this is how big money men in the USA run businesses. Take control, fire everyone, leverage everything to their gain, bankrupt, then walk away.

This IS what people voted for. American business practices applied to the government.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by _aavaa_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:02AM (#43253969)
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by therealdrag0 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:16PM (#43261817)
That’s Depressing
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by rob74 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:10AM (#43254068)
Not sure if they even think they need to prove their assertions, after all Musk (same as his "boss"/BFF) has made the most outlandish claims without a shred of evidence (the "radical-left Marxist vipers" at USAID). To me it looks more like they are already 100% convinced that any work done by federal employees is completely worthless, so they can indiscriminately fire anyone they wish without doing any harm. Same for the attrition tactics - they tell people to return to the office and at the same time end leases for offices etc.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by adapt_and_laugh on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:01AM (#43253953)
And if more federal employees quit because of the poor conditions, it’s just more people they don’t have to worry about laying off.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by V__ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:15AM (#43254111)
And it is flooding the market with job seekers, increasing competition thus depressing wages.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by lukan on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:19AM (#43254160)
Win win (for certain companies)
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Etheryte on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:02AM (#43253976)
The Twitter playbook, except for the government.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by drivingmenuts on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:12AM (#43254079)
At this point, anyone remaining at Xitter has to be aware that they are working for a neo-Nazi. And anyone using Xitter in a country that has a history of fighting Nazi's in WWII has to be aware of who they're supporting. It's maddening how many people just don't seem to give a shit.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ponector on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:17AM (#43254128)
Not only a neo-Nazi, but also for Russians as well.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by baggachipz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:40AM (#43254418)
Lots of people (in the US and abroad) were pretty ok with the Nazis the first time around, until they weren't.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by motbus3 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:49AM (#43254544)
The narrative is more complex than that if I am not mistaken.

It seems the general public outside the affected regions were not completely aware on what was going on with concentration camps. This does not mean they were not aware of at some level.

It is quite common for old people to say that they only became aware of many of the atrocities months or years later the war was over. The US was not keen on putting pressure to concentration camps as, well, they had their own full of "japs and n*"

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alxjrvs on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:43AM (#43254453)
Many of them are trapped by work visas.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by drivingmenuts on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @01:52PM (#43258574)
It's not just Xitter - it's Tesla, Starlink, Neuralink and BoringCo. among others. They can't all be trapped by work visas.

While I have some sympathy for them, it diminishes every time their boss opens his mouth.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alxjrvs on Thursday March 06, 2025 @11:19AM (#43281913)
Absolutely - there are many who are actively complicit, and I don't mean to give shield for everyone.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by arkh on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:41AM (#43254423)
The problem is the people who quit because they cannot work are not those you want to lay off. Those who stay in those conditions? That's those who were not adding anything useful before.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by bloomingkales on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:00AM (#43253951)
I think people didn’t want to believe it when they blamed DEI for the helicopter crash.

The algebra looks like this:

Privatize FAA = x + y

Where x is any discovery or event related to the FAA, and where y is any red meat justification (dei|immigration|trans).

There are many such equations:

Strategic bitcoin reserve = x + y.

Long two years, just going to leave this here. They will always find x and y to complete their equations:

https://www.cato.org/commentary/privatize-faa

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by SecretDreams on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:06AM (#43254016)
> Long two years

Probably a lot longer than two at this rate :/.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by rob74 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:21AM (#43254184)
Since you mention the FAA, I wonder what will happen if the NTSB's report on the Washington disaster doesn't match Trump's preconceived conclusions, e.g. by placing most of the blame on the (female) helicopter pilot. If he interferes there, that will be the final straw convincing me that the US is unfortunately no better than the "banana republics" it used to make fun of anymore...
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by wat10000 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:33AM (#43254337)
I doubt he'll care at that point. It’s already been (subjective) years since that crash.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by rob74 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:39AM (#43254403)
Not sure if he'll care about the specific accident, but he always cares when someone contradicts him...
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by myvoiceismypass on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:22AM (#43254949)
I mean he changed the path of a hurricane via sharpie in the first term. He is incapable of admitting being wrong ever.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by exe34 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:33AM (#43254325)
> If he interferes there,

How will you know at this point? Would he need a sharpie this time, or will he just shout at them over the phone and change the conclusions?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by stronglikedan on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:42AM (#43254440)
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. The transition to a more efficient government won't be easy, but in the end it'll all be worth it. I have no doubt that it can be cut down by 50% without adversely affecting anything long term. This last couple of months have been amazing!
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by AlecSchueler on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:00AM (#43254686)
> I have no doubt that it can be cut down by 50% without adversely affecting anything long term.

Is this percentage based on anything more than vibes? Does it matter to you which eggs get broken and do you agree with the methods being employed to choose/break them? And sorry for all the questions but how do you feel about the conflicts of interests with people like Musk overseeing so much of this?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by mordae on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:14AM (#43254835)
JFYI federal government headcount of 2M people has stayed constant over last 100 years with ever increasing population and things to take care of. I wouldn't call that bloat, honestly.

What has been growing a lot are mostly municipalities, which I guess boils down to more people helping disadvantaged kids in schools, which I guess is nice and more policing, which many are calling to shrink and replace with something less violent.

US government is not bloated. It's corrupt by the revolving door policy, which definitely won't be fixed by letting people go. But even with revolving doors some things have worked for you. Such as predicting weather, fighting diseases, disrupting or bribing competing nations, opening new markets and protecting your fucking imaginary property everybody in the world fucking hates.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by pseudalopex on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:27AM (#43255036)
Executive branch civilian employment was 700,000 in 1940.[1]

[1] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-docu...

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by dingnuts on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#43255223)
> disrupting or bribing competing nations, ... and protecting your fucking imaginary property everybody in the world fucking hates.

Wait, I'm confused. Are you upset that Trump might stop the CIA from disrupting foreign nations? Because that's something I've always been ashamed about as an American so I'm having trouble being upset about the intelligence apparatus that everyone hates worldwide apparently getting fired. The media is telling me that it's the end of the West but I just keep thinking about the Tuskegee experiments and South America and I just don't feel sad for these organizations

> US government is not bloated.

Regardless, it has come to the point where we cannot afford the interest on our debt

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by rurp on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:26PM (#43259940)
There is a big difference between disrupting a neutral country versus an active adversary. But I suspect you already know that and aren't being sincere.

> Regardless, it has come to the point where we cannot afford the interest on our debt

I agree that our debt payments are a growing issue. That's one of the many reasons I think that this administration is going to leave behind a vastly weaker country. If you actually believe that Trump/Elon are serious about this take a look what percentage of the federal budget is comprised of salaries, and look out how much money they want to spend on tax cuts, border security, and a myriad of corrupt contracts. You'll find that the latter is much larger than the former.

I'm sure you won't be swayed by anything I say but I hope you will take a look at the current national debt and check it again in a couple years. When you see that it has become vastly worse under this administration perhaps you'll reevaluate whatever has led you to believe their obvious lies about trying to balance the budget.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by natosaichek on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:54AM (#43254606)
Can you point to some of the stuff (presumably doge) that you particularly approve of? Id like to better understand this perspective
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by doctor_blood on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:53AM (#43255412)
Careful there, stronglikedan - Hacker Newsians are easily confused and don't understand sarcasm.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by snozolli on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:52AM (#43254587)
I have no doubt that it can be cut down by 50% without adversely affecting anything long term.

As long as you don't care about American soft power, or the many lives we save with our humanitarian programs, you may be right. If you do care about these things, then you're already demonstrably wrong.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/27/health/usaid-contract-ter...

More children are going to die, around the world, in the immediate future. Sorry, eggs, this guy has an omelette to make.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:45AM (#43254476)
But they should've shown their assertions and proof thereof beforehand. It's been pointed out that they say organizations are wasteful, but those are vague weasel words; show some numbers, do a root cause analysis and fix what is broken.

But the goal is not to fix what isn't working, it never was - it's a diversion and an excuse to dismantle the federal government, checks and balances, and move to an unchecked oligarchy/autocracy. Taking the whole country with them, of course.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by mihaaly on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:49AM (#43254545)
And there will be lots of people pretending that this is a beliveable assertions.

Basically all will either pretend believing or refuse believing above the mental level of this old infant elected as president, so almost everyone.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by everdrive on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:03AM (#43254721)
I'm starting to think the "government is inefficient" folks have never actually worked in any corporate job. I've worked in two companies since I left the federal government 5-10 years ago, and both were significantly less efficient, and less effective than the federal agency I worked for. I'm sure that's not _always_ true, but it just seems like any large organization full of people is difficult to keep efficient.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by stvltvs on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:49AM (#43255369)
Same experience. The "government = inefficient" propaganda has been repeated ad infinitum for decades so that now it feels like a law of nature to people. My experience is however that every large org is inefficient in its own unique way, no matter which sector.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:04AM (#43256467)
It's parroted by people who see the government as "inefficient" at generating profit, not as inefficient at providing a service.

Why should plebs be entitled to clean water without an 80% margin?

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by consteval on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:50PM (#43262511)
Profit in it of itself is an inefficiency. It's a bandaid for the fundamental problems of the private sector. The fact the public sector isn't burdened by a requirement to make profit isn't a downside, it's a super power.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:49AM (#43269079)
It's only a super power if you're buying those services instead of providing them for a profit (99.9%).

It's anathema if you're competing against someone who doesn't need to make a profit - when you're trying to make an 80% monopolistic margin (0.1%).

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by everyone on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:06AM (#43254754)
That's my experience too.. When the public sector wastes something its an error. For a corp, its business as usual. As long as number-goes-up it doesnt matter to them what they are doing.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by deadbabe on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:10AM (#43254794)
I have to ask with all this disruption, what if we were hit with a massive 9/11 scale attack right now?
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by _heimdall on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:13AM (#43254830)
Unfortunately war does tend to have a way of rallying both sides together. Tribalism tends to just need an "other" group to demonize.

A 9/11 scale attack would make it pretty easy for supporters of both parties to turn their sights on whoever they think attacked us.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by rurp on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:16PM (#43259881)
That's certainly true in general but I can't think of an attack that was preceded by such a visible effort to make the country more vulnerable. There would be some rallying effect, but it might be smaller and shorter lived than usual especially if the response is bungled. Then again, things might have become so cultish that reality completely stops mattering and trump skates by once again without any responsibility.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by _heimdall on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:59PM (#43262584)
Reality isn't simple enough to peg responsibility on any one person.

Unless you go with the "shit rolls down hill" approach and ultimate land blame for everything on the person in charge, it'd be extremely hard to find a clear line between 6 weeks of Trump's presidency and an attack on the scale of 9/11.

Maybe you could tie it back to connections with his first term, but any attack on that scale takes years to plan, not weeks, and has plenty of facets to consider when it comes to what motivated the attackers to actually do it.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by CivBase on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:49AM (#43255355)
This is too conspiratorial for me.

If the point was to make the government less efficient to justify political platforms, why have private companies been doing the same thing for the last 3 years when there's no political upside for them?

I'm not saying the RTO policy is good. I'm very skeptical of it myself. But this explanation doesn't seem to hold water - especially when better explanations are out there.

They could be using it to thin out their staff without layoffs. They could be propping up real estate values. They could be dealing with sunk costs on office space and looking to justify them. They could be accomidating poor managers who cannoy evaluate employee productivity without seeing butts in seats every day.

Not to mention some people really actually do work less efficiently from home. I can't say exactly what proportion or what the overall productivity impact is. It's probably very hard to measure. But it isn't hard to imagine leaders (in both the public and private sectors) genuinely believing the RTO movement will improve overall productivity.

It also isn't hard to imagine large organizations doing a poor job when implementing their RTO effort. I saw similar issues with the RTO effort in my private company. The same issues also happened with the WFH effort during the pandemic. Mismanagement is commonplace in large organizations.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by ryandrake on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:56AM (#43256341)
They could just be doing it to be petty and cruel to "government workers" in general. There doesn't always have to be a genius 5D-chess play. It's very possible the administration simply believes the federal workforce is full of their political opponents and just wants to grief them. A major component of the campaign and their base of support is rooted in cruelty to out-groups, so they're technically delivering a campaign promise to their base by just making people miserable.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by red020 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:11AM (#43255689)
So exactly what Biden/Mayorkas did at the DHS when they simply decided to stop doing their jobs and let millions of illegals in?
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:18AM (#43256679)
I'm not seeing that in either the deportation/removal rates, nor the encounters rate. Which time period 2021-2024 should I be looking at to see this? I'm looking only at annual rates, not month by month.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by Izkata on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:11PM (#43261791)
It wouldn't show up in deportation rates because they're not talking about deportation, they're talking about people illegally entering the country. That administration was enabling it through the CBP One app, up to some limit per day (which I remember being 2000 but am not sure that's right).

https://homeland.house.gov/2024/10/24/startling-stats-factsh...

> However, the end result is the same—tens of thousands of inadmissible aliens being released into the interior every month. This is evident through the number of appointments scheduled through the CBP One mass-parole program, which skyrocketed to more than 852,000 since January 2023.

Also there is a massive spike in encounters during those years: https://ohss.dhs.gov/khsm/cbp-encounters

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by alabastervlog on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:16PM (#43262223)
Spike in encounters, and spike in deportations, no? I’d expect to see both drop, but certainly deportations, if what was claimed had happened, but I’m not seeing it.

[edit] if the stopped-doing-their-job thing had happened, not CBP One, I’m aware of that.

Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by clord on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:26AM (#43255881)
I was under the impression these offices closed during the pandemic and the return to office order is bringing people back into those places. If that’s the case I don’t think this is some sort of planned disruption but rather poor planning. Incompetence vs malice right?
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by NoGravitas on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:50AM (#43257148)
It's also intended to frustrate people so that they are encouraged to quit.
Re:Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desk... by agumonkey on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @02:41PM (#43259065)
Hey, I thought this was a french right thing only, but somehow it's global tradition.