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Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by baq on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:17AM (#39741469)
Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS and am close to the conclusion that this reputation is a psy-op. Yeah it’s pretty, it mostly works when the box is first turned on and the hardware is unmatched but macOS itself is actually subpar. QA seems second tier, things you’d except from other OSes like, I don’t know, using a third party second display are just bad experiences. Docker sucks, posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful, the thing randomly loses network and only rebooting fixes it. I reboot my corporate Mac more often than I rebooted my windows enterprise laptop.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by addicted on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:55AM (#39742001)
The reputation was well earned when Linux on the Desktop wasn’t as easy or friendly as it is today and was severely lacking good quality GUI applications.

Windows was a virus laden mess and was not useful for running Linux apps.

And besides the flaws of the other OS’es, OS X had some of the nicest window management features (Expose from the Snow Leopard is still my favorite window switcher), was a UNIX and had a thriving indie development scene (which was basically killed by iOS…).

Since then OSX has completely languished as a developer platform. It’s not clear what you can do today as a developer to make your life easier that you could not a decade ago on OSX. And in fact, the destruction of the indie dev scene, combined with the many heavy handed security restrictions of dubious benefit have made it a far worse dev environment than a decade and a half ago.

Further, Linux DEs have greatly improved and Windows now supports Linux development.

The Mac ecosystem has seen a complete turnaround where you now buy a Mac for the hardware, not the software.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vbezhenar on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:22AM (#39742145)
Here are few particular things that I like about development in my mac:

1. Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd. Modern Gnome Terminal is good, though.

2. Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT.

3. Touch ID instead of root password, which works with Bluetooth keyboard as well, and that's with absolutely minimal configuration, uncommenting single line.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by blackoil on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:25AM (#39742586)
1. Default is now Windows Terminal which is so much better than Cmd and Mac Terminal.

2. Ctrl+C works for copy when text is selected otherwise SIGINT.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by SpaghettiCthulu on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:30AM (#39742611)
But both are awful compared to the other terminal emulators available. My favourites are alacritty and kitty.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by pdimitar on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:13AM (#39743160)
Yep, I use Alacritty both on macOS and Linux and I love it. Still not sure about Kitty, I hate Python scripting but might pull the trigger at one point, we'll see.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by SpaghettiCthulu on Sunday March 24, 2024 @10:26PM (#39812372)
I would use alacritty exclusively if it supported ligatures.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by merlindru on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:54AM (#39742872)
IMO Windows Terminal is amazing

Good design, great performance, great text rendering

Has tabs, themes, quake mode, a settings UI, and keyboard shortcuts (that you can rebind)

On macOS, I like iTerm2 a lot!

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by cma on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:50AM (#39744501)
I've never had a terminal crash, except Windows Terminal.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by tuananh on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:29PM (#39752673)
> great performance

compare with what?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by SpaghettiCthulu on Sunday March 24, 2024 @10:30PM (#39812390)
> Good design

I strongly disagree. I feel that Windows Terminal suffers from a bloated UI and completely asinine organization of the configuration options.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by ggpsv on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:47AM (#39742782)
I use Alacritty in Windows with WSL2/Ubuntu. Works without troubles.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by benterix on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:01AM (#39742420)
> Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd.

It is subpar, however, when compared to Windows Terminal.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by self_awareness on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:34AM (#39742649)
Which is probably subpar comparing to Linux terminals and macOS iTerm2?
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by ggpsv on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:47AM (#39742795)
Having used iTerm2 and macOS for a long time, Alacritty in Windows with WSL2 and a Linux distro is a much better experience.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by self_awareness on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:59AM (#39743774)
To be fair, I think it's very subjective, given the fact that Alacritty doesn't even support tabs (by design).

Also I find a simple Konsole on KDE+Linux superior for every Windows and macOS setup (including iTerm2).

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by lupusreal on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:17PM (#39746438)
I find iTerm2 to be slightly better than Konsole in a handful of small ways, like having a built-in quake mode instead of having to use yakuake instead (which comes with various little oddities relative to konsole), ability to add colors to tabs, etc.

That said, iTerm2 isn't good enough to make me use MacOS again.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by ggpsv on Monday March 18, 2024 @10:11AM (#39744818)
Right, point being that using terminals in Windows is not necessarily subpar to iTerm2 on macOS.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by pdimitar on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:16AM (#39743195)
1. Who cares? I use iTerm2, Alacritty and Rio and they all work very well. Programmers don't have trouble installing alternative programs.

2. I remember the XFCE4 Terminal using Ctrl-Shift-C and Ctrl-Shift-V for copy/paste and liking it, no more SIGINT by mistake. But IMO a minor gripe, you can remap keys for copy/paste in most self-respecting terminal emulators anyway.

3. I agree on that but passwordless sudo saved my sanity and I don't care anymore. If I install a virus then I had all the troubles coming and I'll take responsibility. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vbezhenar on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:21AM (#39744079)
1. I care, because I prefer default setups as much as possible. Third-party software is often a burden.

2. That's bad approach, because it'll be Ctrl+Shift+C in terminal, but Ctrl+C in your IDE. That's inconsistent. I'm usually setting it the other way: Ctrl+C is copy and Ctrl+Shift+C is interrupt, but it's not as good as two different shortcuts.

3. I would say, that it's not only about sudo, it's about other things like revealing passwords in browser, using touch id for passkey authentication, laptop unlock, of course. Those are not strictly developer things, but it's very convenient when it works uniformly. And having some security measure is better than having none, even if it as simple as touch the button, it might cause some second thought. For example few days ago I did a mistake and installed caddy (terrible software, don't recommend). After launch it started tinkering with my system, installing some certificates, and if not for Touch ID, I'd end up with system in unknown state. Probably it'd happily corrupted my system with passwordless sudo.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by pdimitar on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:25AM (#39744144)
1. It's your own idealistic preference. Low priority for everyone else.

2. Sure, I don't disagree, I was mostly saying the whole stuff is configurable and we can tune it however way it's more convenient for us.

3. I agree and I'd want a fingerprint or a proper FaceID (with depth-radar and lasers and all, not just something that can be duped by print photos) on my computers but it's not something that would stop me from buying an otherwise excellent machine if it doesn't have this feature.

As for Caddy, let's agree to disagree. :D I will concede that many programs' installers are quite dumb but Caddy itself is excellent once you start it up and it starts doing its own thing.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vbezhenar on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:31AM (#39744216)
> As for Caddy, let's agree to disagree. :D I will concede that many programs' installers are quite dumb but Caddy itself is excellent once you start it up and it starts doing its own thing.

Installing root certificate into my system without any explicit verbose flags is something malware would do. The developer who thought that's a good thing is the one whose software I'd avoid. His views on usability are completely opposite to mine. What else will he do by default? Listen on 0.0.0.0? Add firewall exception for usability? Create tunnel to the Internet automatically so I can share my work with others without those pesky port forwardings? Some people might like it, but not me, I prefer things as explicit as possible, when it comes to questionable features.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by lupusreal on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:14PM (#39746404)
> Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT.

Can't compete with the streamlined easy of highlight-to-copy. I never use a keyboard shortcut to copy text from a terminal (except for yanking in vim / evil-mode)

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by pjmlp on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:16AM (#39742116)
My reason to use Macs is for the modern version of NeXTSTEP and iDevices, not really for the overpriced hardware.

However at home I have always been a Windows/Amiga/UNIX head, with Linux being the cheaper path to that UNIX experience, had Microsoft not messed up the POSIX layer, probably I would never have bothered.

For some time I even tried to acquire one of those nice Toshiba laptops using Solaris that Sun used to have.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by self_awareness on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:38AM (#39742683)
> And besides the flaws of the other OS’es, OS X had some of the nicest window management features

I'm always confused by such statements, because what KDE offers on Linux easily dwarfs every window management concept in every major OS. I always need to install additional third-party apps (e.g. Rectangle on macOS) to get a poor-man's equivalent of KDE-style window management functionality.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bdavbdav on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:29PM (#39750831)
But I don’t have a subset of apps that work in x11, and a subset in wayland… nor inconsistent display fractional scaling in MacOS. Wanted to love KDE, but in complex setups, it’s difficult.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by addicted on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:39AM (#39775153)
> had

Nothing came close to OSX’s Expose 15 years ago.

OSX has gone backwards in terms of windows management since then.

Linux is far superior. Even Windows is slightly better because at least windows snap to edges.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by blashyrk on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:04AM (#39741716)
I cannot believe that, on macOS, high cpu usage leads to audio buffer underruns and popping, like something from the 90s but on today's premium hardware. It's inexcusable. On a platform that is constantly touted as the best for audio work, DAWs etc no less.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:22AM (#39741810)
Wow, I thought I'm the only one as when asked in my Team no one agreed to facing these issues - but I faced it on multiple new Macbook Pros.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vbezhenar on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:24AM (#39742154)
I experienced it, but I'm not sure if it relates to high CPU. My guess it's something about kernel locks.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by solarkraft on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:06AM (#39742458)
I experience this a lot (even up to complete freezes, even of the touchpad feedback, leading to crashes) and am confident that it is at least related to swapping due to memory pressure / RAM usage.

Why they'd let the system become unstable rather than killing some apps that are too much goes beyond my understanding.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by benterix on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:03AM (#39742438)
Yeah, the same on m2. And to thing I originally bought this machine with audio work in mind...
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by dawnerd on Monday March 18, 2024 @10:59AM (#39745479)
I discovered them when running stable diffusion which maxes out my m1max and audio started to stutter a lot despite everything else running fine. I was even thinking to myself how nice it is to be able to tax the machine and this be able to use it.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by Daedren on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:24AM (#39741830)
Yep, it's been like this for.. I don't know how long now. I have "killlall coreaudiod" always ready to be used on my M1 Mac since it's a constant problem.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by alex_duf on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:36AM (#39742241)
changing the volume of the sound under high CPU load will also move the balance one side.

I often have to re-center the balance, it's driving me nuts.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by _djo_ on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:53AM (#39742861)
I've found this to be useful to solve that problem. https://www.tunabellysoftware.com/balance_lock/
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by blashyrk on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:56AM (#39742905)
How the hell does something like that even happen lol
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by paulmd on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:49AM (#39744492)
increase-left-volume; increase-right-volume;

inside a function that can be preempted

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by blashyrk on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:12PM (#39747074)
Right but that would only happen if the code literally increased/decreased the channel volume instead of simply setting it to the new value. Either way it's an embarrassing bug to have for something so essential and simple, the kind of bug that reminds me of Linux desktops from 15 years ago or so
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by 486sx33 on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:38AM (#39742264)
Thought the popping was a Rosetta 2 bug as I had only noticed it running x86 software on m2 pro.

Your explanation makes a lot more sense as x86 is probably the only time I’m pushing the cpu usage high enough.

The popping is darn annoying

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by blashyrk on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:55AM (#39742893)
It precedes the switch to ARM. My 2019 (last Intel generation) MBP also had this issue. And the previous one from 2015 (though that poor thing only had 8GB of RAM).
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by EthicalSimilar on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:21AM (#39741484)
I’ve been using macOS as my primary development environment for the past ~4 years and have loved every minute of it. I haven’t run into any of the issues you’ve mentioned thankfully, and docker works absolutely fine for my use cases. I can’t see myself ever switching for any reason.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:04AM (#39742045)
I've been using MacOS for about 5 years, as it is the machine issued by my workplace. And I hate it. It's so much worse than Linux that it's not even a joke. Hell, I think I would have preferred to work on Windows with WSL than this crap.

The hardware is not even that good. I presume people like it because it looks slick and serves as a status symbol.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by sneak on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:56AM (#39742380)
I didn’t realize you were joking until the second paragraph.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:30AM (#39745897)
The only joke here is people white-knighting for a manufacturer of luxury toys.

How dare someone doesn't like a MBP?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by culopatin on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:11AM (#39745643)
Please name a competitor with better laptop hardware (I assume your workplace provided you with a laptop). Things such as better screen, lower fan noise/computing power ratio, speaker quality, touchpad and battery life.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:30AM (#39745885)
> Please name a competitor with better laptop hardware (I assume your workplace provided you with a laptop).

My workplace provides me with a MacBook yes.

I honestly prefer using my 5 year old Dell G5.

I absolutely hate MacBook screen. It's reflexive, whereas I very much favor the matte finish of basically every other manufacturer.

Fan noise for me is essentially irrelevant. Not that my Dell makes that much noise anyway. I am normally listening to music while I work, and when gaming there's in game sound.

Speaker quality is shit on either laptop. My cheap speaker/subwoofer set that is connected to the docking system is leagues better than the laptop speaker (that I never use anyway).

Touchpad is... as bad as any other touchpad? I use a mouse for a reason.

Battery life is the only thing a MacBook would have in its favor. Again, irrelevant. 99% of the time it is plugged into power.

MacBook comes with a major downside of being tied to OSX however. This cannot be understated.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nerdix on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:51PM (#39746840)
You sound a lot like me.

I think macOS has the worst window management of any major OS especially for power users. It's so bad that buying a half dozen third party apps to "fix" the UX disaster that is macOS has basically been normalized.

I don't like any touchpad so even if a MacBook touchpad is better it's still just the best worst method for mouse input.

I think Apple makes nice hardware though. But I also work docked basically 99% of the time and use it as a desktop replacement so many of the Apple hardware advantages are moot for me. I'm kind of shocked when I see people voluntarily working on a laptop undocked. Working with a crappy keyboard, a crappy touchpad, and a small screen is torture to me even if it's the best crappy keyboard, the best crappy touchpad, and the best small screen.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Monday March 18, 2024 @03:16PM (#39748681)
Precisely.

I use it undocked very rarely, to the point that those hardware advantages are irrelevant.

The downsides are still there when docked however (the horrible glossy screen and the awful OS I have to handle).

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by philistine on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:45PM (#39749787)
> I think macOS has the worst window management of any major OS especially for power users.

Do you use full screen windows ?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by culopatin on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:58PM (#39746931)
Ok so you couldn’t list a better laptop. Any laptop is good docked and ignoring the noise with headphones. The only thing valuable of your response is the matte screen. Which can be fixed with a cheap Amazon film if wanted. Still with the glossy screen I can see my MacBook much better in direct sun than I can any matte HP elitebook I’ve used in the last 5 years. The sure view screens are actually almost unusable indoors.

Speakers bad in a MacBook? Come on man at least try to be objective.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Monday March 18, 2024 @03:13PM (#39748641)
> Ok so you couldn’t list a better laptop

I did. You just didn't want to listen.

> Speakers bad in a MacBook? Come on man at least try to be objective.

Mac users that list the laptop speakers as good are really digging in. It is marginally better than regular shitty laptop speakers, but it is still very shitty. Any cheap proper speakers are much better, to the point that listing it as a positive is misleading.

And I can use my boring Dell with my windows open on a sunny day without issues. MacBook requires me to close the blinds.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by smoothc on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @04:38AM (#39764024)
> I did. You just didn’t want to listen.

Hate to be that guy, but you literally didn’t. Your “I honestly prefer using my 5 year old Dell G5” does not answer that question.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by surgical_fire on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @07:31AM (#39765051)
I presume reading skills are hard to acquire these days. I can tell you in more simple terms. Unfortunately HN does not allow me to draw with crayons:

"Any manufacturer that provides hardware that has screen with a matte finish and whose hardware is not tied to a shitty OS".

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by jackcviers3 on Thursday March 21, 2024 @11:21AM (#39779653)
The only thing I prefer the mac M3 PRO (work), hardware wise, to my MSI w/4060 and 64GB ram, is the battery life. Everything runs slower on my mac. There are some niceties (the color filter for my color-blindness, for example, and the keychain), but not a fan of

* lack of usb ports necessitating dongles * lack of hdmi/dvi outs * No camera lens cover * Uncomfortable chiclet keyboard * oversized touchpad * overheating * lack of power cores leads to slower parallel compilations

I do appreciate the ease of use of (especially) the network utilities of mac, but it's definitely not my preferred machine.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by okamiueru on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:53AM (#39741992)
MacOS has bugs and inconsistencies everywhere. Some are bugs, some are inconsistent UX, only a few of them are "well... I just don't like it". An example: you cannot right click app-icons in the Docker in the mission control overview.

The list of specific annoyances and bugs is likely in the 3 digits by now, and I've only used it for half a year.

The worst of all was getting the M2 soft-bricked by an update, because I had changed the display frame rate to 60Hz, because the tween duration when moving between desktops was for some reason tied to this refresh rate. About 2 second tween duration on 120 Hz until input control, and one second on 60 Hz. Impressive for such a thing to not be picked up by QA.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by anal_reactor on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:55AM (#39742375)
Mac OS UX is just bad. I've been using it daily for a few years already, but I still struggle to perform basic tasks. And by "basic" I mean "How do I move a file?" or "How do I go one folder up?". Sure, I can read about this, but this shouldn't require me to read a manual.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by okamiueru on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:02AM (#39743823)
It's a special kind of stubbornness that makes it so that a file manager doesn't have support for cut and paste, in order to move files.

The answer to most "it's a bit dumb that MacOS doesn't let you / forces you to" is "install app X, Y, Z".

- Don't like that apple's "Music" app pops up when you connect a Bluetooth headset? => Install an app.

- Want to be able to "alt tab" through windows of the same program, or in general not be uselessly flawed? => Install an app

- Want to be able to move and resize windows without aiming at the exact edge pixels of the window? => Install an app.

- Want to move & resize windows to very common places and sizes on a screen? => Install an app.

- Want global hotkeys for whatever? => Install an app

- Want a software package management system a'la apt? => Install an app.

- Want to rebind keys or make things like Home/End not be dead keys... because apple keyboards don't have that, and they cannot be bothered with it. "you should be using "⌘ + →" anyways... or, I suppose it depends on the window"? => Install an app.

- etc....

You don't get any of these annoyances with Linux / Gnome. "Why not use that if you hate MacOS so much?" I pretend to hear you say. First of all, because of anti-competitive reasons by Apple, I sort of have to. Secondly... something something angry old man yells at clouds.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by dawnerd on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:02AM (#39745521)
Cmd backtick? For tabbing through windows.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nihilius on Monday March 18, 2024 @10:40AM (#39745198)
Finder cut and paste is cmd+c then cmd+option+v for move. On the rest I agree.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nicwolff on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:59AM (#39746257)
Which is pretty counter-intuitive: it's "copy", then "paste but delete the original"? Much more natural to remember ⌘-c, ⌘-delete, change folders and ⌘-v.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:30PM (#39746611)
You can also drag and drop and toggle between moving and copying by holding a key
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hollandheese on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:18PM (#39747129)
>Don't like that apple's "Music" app pops up when you connect a Bluetooth headset? => Install an app.

Get a better bluetooth headset that doesn't send play when it connects. That's the problem. It's the headset that's doing something wrong.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by okamiueru on Monday March 18, 2024 @02:22PM (#39747984)
It's always something else doing something wrong. Everything has to conform to Apples design guidelines.

Heaven forbid the OS could let you chose what you want to happen... like launching Spotify instead, or simply nothing at all...

It's the headset doing something wrong. What a fascinating take. You wouldn't happen to be working at Apple R&D?

Maybe I missed the /s, it's just too on the nose, almost as if you're ridiculing it.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hollandheese on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @02:25PM (#39758762)
> Heaven forbid the OS could let you chose what you want to happen... like launching Spotify instead, or simply nothing at all.

Yes, the OS could do that. I'd prefer if Apple made that key configurable. But the problem isn't Apple and Bluetooh Headsets, it's that Apple made the play/pause button unconfigurable (without additional software).

>It's the headset doing something wrong. What a fascinating take. You wouldn't happen to be working at Apple R&D?

IT IS THE HEADSET DOING SOMETHING WRONG! No one asked it to send play when it connects, the manufacturer decided to do something brain dead there. It still messes with Windows and Linux machines too if you set the play/pause button to launch an app.

Do you happen to work for a bluetooth headset manufacturer? It sure sounds like you're excusing their broken behavior.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by okamiueru on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @03:21AM (#39763622)
> But the problem isn't Apple and Bluetooh Headsets, it's that Apple made the play/pause button unconfigurable (without additional software).

Compare it with

> - Don't like that apple's "Music" app pops up when you connect a Bluetooth headset? => Install an app

The only difference is that you add a puzzling self contradiction of "the problem isn't Apple, but that Apple has..."

This is entirely an Apple and MacOS thing, and most certainly not an issue on Linux. Though I don't know about Windows.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by cma on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:59AM (#39744639)
Not as bad as:

How to lose your work using Undo Copy in Windows

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35927413

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:29PM (#39746584)
The gui is no different than windows in this regard. If you do it on command line its just mv and cd like its been for 40 years.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nerdix on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:56PM (#39746919)
Finder is an abomination. No app has been quite as rage inducing for me personally as Finder.

I use the command line almost exclusively for file management and avoid it like the plague.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by chrisandchris on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:37AM (#39742255)
Not to defend MacOS, but Windows is the no. 1 of incosistent UIs - by large. If you want a consistent UI, choose Linux.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by okamiueru on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:55AM (#39742374)
Windows has a mess of legacy UI that are never fully replaced.

They could have gone down the path of translating the windows UI APIs, though I think it's better that they left it as is. The bigger issue however, is that there are different systems depending on what it is you want to configure, and it's all ducktaped in an ancient registry that I'm just amazed only breaks as often as it does.

Not to mention that the thing Windows was supposed to always be better at, was driver support. On windows, you have to manually source them, and try as best to avoid all the bloatware that comes with. Windows itself might also decide to replace a driver with an older one (version, release date...). WiFi drivers didn't work last time I upgraded the mobo either.

As for Linux. Completely agree. Gnome is consistent, and gets out of the way often enough. There are some annoyances there too. I have my 90 y/o grandma use Linux/Gnome, because that's what Just Works these days.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:42AM (#39742292)
Linux can be consistent if you reject all but applications built in your desktops toolkit of choice. Which means you're missing out on a lot of applications.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:27AM (#39741512)
Strange. I've got the complete opposite experience. Most displays work fine. It helps if you stick with models that advertise at least a bit of macOS support (like some Dells or Samsungs). Docker sucks, but there's Orbstack. I don't care for posix, but most of my *nix tools are available in Homebrew. Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux. Is your experience based on a recent mac?
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by jsheard on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:28AM (#39741856)
The problem with third party displays on the Mac is the system has some deeply held assumptions that all monitors are as pixel-dense as the ones which Apple ships with their machines. 100% DPI scaling for classic ~100ppi monitors is a poor experience since macOS no longer supports subpixel font rendering, and DPI scales higher than 100% but less than 200% are really just 200% in a trenchcoat because the system renders everything at 200% then uses non-integer resampling to squish it onto the display. That works well enough on the ~220ppi panels that Apple uses but isn't ideal on common 4K displays which are usually around 140-160ppi.

It's not unusable if you at least have one of those medium density 4K monitors, but it feels like a step backwards if you're used to Windows which still (mostly) supports subpixel font rendering for crisp text at 100% scale, and can render natively at 125/150/175% scales.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by user_of_the_wek on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:43AM (#39741937)
Yes, this is irking me too. You really need a high density display to enjoy macOS, it shouldn't be like that. I guess they like to leave the baggage behind.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:08AM (#39743078)
"Retina" Macs were introduced 12 years ago. So what should Apple do? Expend serious time and engineering effort to fix problems with hardware that's far behind the times? Nobody's calling for the return of MCGA graphics so it's clear there's a cutoff needed somewhere.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by jsheard on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:20AM (#39744074)
I can agreee with accommodating old ~100ppi displays not being worth it past a certain point, but the way that Apple handles high DPI by standardizing on ~220ppi across the board is setting the bar way higher than most people can afford even today. The cheapest large format monitors which meet that standard are at least $1500, when you can get a 4K 160ppi monitor for as little as $200, and 160ppi is absolutely fine on systems like Windows which natively support fractional scaling. I think Wayland originally planned to work like macOS but they are in the process of implementing true fractional scaling akin to Windows.

Another factor is that focusing on pixel density above all else comes at the expense of pixel speed, there are no large monitors which meet Apples 220ppi standard and have a refresh rate of 120hz or better, no matter how much money you're willing to spend, they just don't exist.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:30AM (#39744212)
On macOS 4K displays are fine. Not the best, but fine.

I think the display resolution market suffers from some opposing directions: people who do productivity work like high resolutions, but since Windows (majority of the market) still seems to struggle to scale UI elements correctly some people prefer lower resolution. Also, gamers associate high resolutions with heavy GPU requirements or lower framerates. And then there are companies that are used to spending the absolute minimum on screens that are barely 1080p.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hollandheese on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:25PM (#39747224)
Either make or subsidize someone to make under $1000 monitors that fit their specs.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by jsheard on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:27AM (#39742177)
The worst part is you can't even throw money at the problem without still compromising somewhere - third party 6K/8K monitors which meet Apples PPI standard do exist, but those are currently limited to 60hz, so if you want a fast refresh rate you have to settle for 4K at a lesser PPI.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by zuhsetaqi on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:39AM (#39741918)
I use both, Windows and macOS on the same two 4K 27" monitors and don’t see any problems or that Windows is sharper or something like this
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by mdedetrich on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @04:31AM (#39763979)
While this is definitely an issue, ironically we may get to a point at some time where subpixel rendering becomes less and less useful, for reasons aside from pixel density.

As you know, subpixel rendering only works when you have a very specific display (i.e. LCD) since it takes advantage of, and hence relies on precise characteristics of how the pixels are physically laid out in the display.

This means that subpixel rendering fails to work on displays that have different layouts, the most recent example of this have been newer OLED displays (I think QD-OLED) which has a different pixel arrangement and then you ironically had Windows users complaining that the text looked jagged (although you are able to change the algorithm for subpixel rendering to match the QD-OLED, the unfortunate problem here is that its not really possible for this to work all for applications as it depends on which UI engine you are using, Windows is a giant mess here).

Long story short, I can see why Mac removed sub pixel rendering, its basically a workaround that reflected a time when you had less dense displays which were all LCD and had the same physical layout. Nowadays though high pixel density displays are a lot more common and then you don't need sub pixel rendering at all (and it works with all of the different physical pixel layout arrangements)

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:24AM (#39741829)
I have a modern Dell supported 4K display supporting USB-C to USB-C connection. macOS shows black screen for a few seconds before being able to show anything. Also using the 4K monitor with an actual 4K resolution makes everything very slow, so I just use it with lower resolutions :|. Never saw such issues on even entry level Windows laptops.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:11AM (#39743115)
Is it macOS or the monitor not being responsive? Also, if it's slow your laptop might be too old to properly support 4K or you might have misconfigured something.

At least Dell supports their hardware: have you tried updating the monitor firmware or submitting a report?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @03:47PM (#39749084)
It's the built-in mac display that goes blank along with the external monitor. On my Intel 2019 MBP it was very slow (many seconds), on this new M3 it's much shorter but still more than a decent Windows laptop which is almost instant.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nullwarp on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:11AM (#39743947)
> Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux.

I gotta disagree hard here. Macs have by far the most obnoxious and temperamental WiFi stack I've ever experienced. Constant disconnects, have to turn it off and on to get it to bother looking for APs again. All of them constantly trigger bad experience scores in UniFi.

Absolutely subpar compared to any of my Linux devices, even the raspberry pi jammed inside a metal box.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by tikkabhuna on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:33AM (#39741881)
> posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful

It's been a long time since I ran a Macbook, but this was my biggest problem. The weird uncanny valley where its almost the same but then not.

WSL has problems but there's a very clear line in the sand between Linux and Windows and you know what you're getting.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by tigeroil on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:33AM (#39741541)
Indeed - I recently switched to Linux and I'm much happier. I'm shocked how much better the experience is lately.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by askonomm on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:31AM (#39742201)
Funny, I have the same feelings about Linux. So many bugs and glitches that it really feels like nobody actually tests anything. And Windows, while I don't remember any weird glitches, just has so many ads that it makes me feel like I'm browsing some sort of yellow newspaper. Almost every update of Windows brings with it new installed apps like Candy Crush or Amazon Prime Video that I never opted into.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by culopatin on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:22AM (#39745785)
Linux is that home made thing that is all function over form, you’re proud of but any time a guest wants to use it you have to be there to make it work, and it’s pretty ugly. Windows is the tacky plasticky thing you bought at Walmart/Amazon. It works, but you’re not putting it out to show anyone. It’s a cheap TV. Apple is the nice expensive thing you got from a design magazine but sometimes you wish they had thought of function over design.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by askonomm on Monday March 18, 2024 @11:41AM (#39746051)
The solution then is to use all three interchangeably, like me. You hate them all, but since the hate is spread among all three it is more manageable.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:32PM (#39746628)
Mac os is literally a gui on a turnkey linux distro. Under the hood its very comfortable.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by fphhotchips on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:13AM (#39742088)
The third party display thing is dead on.

I have a $2000 AUD LG monitor that Mac OS just occasionally decides to overdrive (or something) and cause instant but temporary burn in. I'm not the only one - you can find others on Reddit.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by valevino on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:55AM (#39742370)
Some people think that I am crazy when I said that I would prefer to use Linux instead of the MacOS in a MacBook if this was an option for me. I constantly have network issues and UI issues that I can just recover after reboot the system. But the big problem is the MacOS experience, I really hate it.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hmottestad on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:58AM (#39742402)
What MacBook do you have that you can't run Linux on it?
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:33PM (#39746641)
Any with arm
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hmottestad on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:16PM (#39747113)
All the ARM ones run Asahi Linux.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vardump on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:20AM (#39742133)
Not saying you're wrong, but what else is there that just works and is usable instantly when you open the lid?

While my work Windows laptop might be faster, it's certainly not the one I'm going to pick in a pinch or when I want to travel with just one laptop.

The best mobile configuration I know right now is a Macbook Pro + Parallels. Even with all of its deficiencies.

Are there any good Linux laptops with similar experience as Macbooks when it comes to power management and time from lid opening to usable state?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hmottestad on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:30AM (#39742192)
You could always install Linux on your Macbook Pro. Personally I prefer MacOS though.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by dimask on Monday March 18, 2024 @09:38AM (#39744333)
Not so simple for apple silicon.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hmottestad on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @04:24AM (#39763946)
I haven't tried Asahi Linux myself, but it looks promising. Do you know if it lives up to expectations?
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:32PM (#39746635)
Why? Macos is already a unix os.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by galdosdi on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:49PM (#39750476)
Everyone says this until they're spending their whole weekend working around some weird tiny differences in between a GNU tool and something that comes with OSX or homebrew or something.

And when you finally get it working you have the "satisfaction" of knowing you bought NOTHING of value with all that wasted time -- just the opportunity to be able to use FaceTime on the same laptop you develop on, or something.

If you're looking for a UNIXy nice desktop OS and that's the entirety of your requirement, mac OS is great.

If your REAL use case isn't just generic hanging around, but specifically developing/maintaining an app that runs on linux in production, then you're only hurting yourself the more you introduce mac or windows into the dev process. Nothing good can come of it. Best case you get lucky and you don't run into any issues... and also reap no real benefits because a linux desktop nowadays works fine, it's not the year 2000.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by kjkjadksj on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @12:41PM (#39757596)
One line into the cli and you can have your gnu tools installed. Its no harder to manage software environments in mac than it is in linux because you can use the same tools. I use conda on mac and the linux server that does the compute. I could use docker too if i wanted.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by hmottestad on Wednesday March 20, 2024 @04:23AM (#39763941)
The parent comment was asking about a laptop that was as good as a macbook but to run linux on.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by dangus on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:12AM (#39743140)
And which commercial OS do you think is better? Windows?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/66408996/python-not-foun...

> using a third party second display

Has always worked fine for me

> Docker sucks

This is Apple’s fault how? It also sucks on Windows.

> posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful

What does this mean exactly? Can you find an example where it’s not useful? In my experience most of the command line applications I would want on Linux are easily installable via Brew and I can choose all the same shell environments as Linux/Unix.

> The thing randomly loses network and only rebooting fixes it.

On your machine. Not my experience with any Mac I’ve owned. That isn’t expected or common behavior.

> I reboot my corporate Mac more often

I’m going to guess this is because your IT department sucks. I never reboot except for OS updates.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by raspasov on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:48AM (#39741620)
As of recently, Docker on MacOS has improved and AFAICT the performance penalty is gone.

Is the problematic corporate Mac an M-series Mac or Intel?

M-series have been great in my experience. I did used to get random full system crashes on Intel Macs which haven't happened in a few years on M1/M2.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by avarun on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:18AM (#39741792)
I mean the performance penalty is just inherent to how Docker on Mac works. Instead of being a container like on Linux, it’s a virtual machine, which will necessarily be slower.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by vbezhenar on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:28AM (#39742179)
The difference is absolutely marginal. The main slowdown sources is mounting huge volumes from the host, that's definitely works better with Linux. And emulating x86_64, if your container does not have arm64 build. But if you don't need it, I'd argue that M1 performance will yield faster containers compared to average Intel laptop.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by papruapap on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:23AM (#39742571)
Docker Desktop still sucks at least on my corp mac.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bzzzt on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:12AM (#39743145)
I'd recommend you try OrbStack.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by amval on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:22AM (#39741812)
Absolutely agree. We changed on my team to primarily use Macbooks. Originally just to make easier testing on Safari. Later, just because the hardware is pretty nice.

It has been a pretty frustrating experience at times. Most of the time is _fine_, but the problems after updates, Docker bugs, certain libraries that we cannot install..

On the other hand, it was never perfect with Linux either. But that was expected. And I can say that macOS does not deserbe the reputation it has.

Overall, kind of a mixed bag. There are some very nice aspects to both he hardware and software, but some that are jarring and make me thing "this is not really meant for professional users". Like the atrocious window management (that admittedly can bve fixed with a couple free applicaitons).

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nottorp on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:52AM (#39741985)
That's a definite it depends.

Macs are finnicky with hardware (but hdmi sucks by definition, they think you bought the cable and monitor to pirate movies and not to do some work).

However the GUI actually works and if you spend a week on windows 10+ you'll remember why people buy Mac OS.

Personally I have a Mac for stuff that requires a GUI and a headless linux box that I ssh into. And I switched to Macs from ... Linux on the desktop.

Edit: docker is shit because they just install a Linux VM and run their Linux stuff in there. Same on Windows I guess.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by addicted on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:00AM (#39742032)
Windows 10 (can’t speak for 11…I haven’t upgraded) with a lot of the animations etc turned off is a far superior developer experience than macOS.

macOS is just so clunky. It tried to be so smooth all the time but just ends up being annoying.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nottorp on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:06AM (#39742059)
I just set up a windows box for some development last week. Spent 2-3 hours per day on it (on work not setup).

So far I haven't managed to turn off the firewall scare popups, I did manage to remove that crap in the task bar that pops up the weather and selected news covering half the screen if you hover in the wrong place, I may or may not have turned off the OneDrive upsell, and I also got a full screen message to upgrade to 11 for free when booting once.

Great user experience overall. And don't tell me I can spend another week to turn those off, is Microsoft paying for that wasted time?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by fphhotchips on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:20AM (#39742134)
Let's not pretend that Mac OS is immune to a bit of the old upsell too. Core OS that features only work when paired with iPad/iPhone. iCloud is actively difficult not to use. The sidebar with the Apple shares and news apps.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by lwkl on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:35AM (#39742656)
> Let's not pretend that Mac OS is immune to a bit of the old upsell too.

Of course but Microsoft is way more obnoxious about it. In macOS (and iOS) the upsell is a small icon in your system settings. On Windows it's big notifications when you start up your devices. Links in your start menu to third party apps. Notifications when you install and run third-party browsers.

Most mac apps work without an Apple ID. On Windows you can't even use the built in video editor (Clipchamp) without logging in to a Microsoft account.

Microsoft just sucks at UX. On Windows 11 a lot of people now have three versions of Microsoft teams installed. Teams Classic, Teams New, and Teams personal edition. And the search makes sure to avoid showing you the one you use most as the default result.

Don't get me started on how many nag screens and cookie warnings you have to go through when you start Microsoft Edge. I use both Windows and macOS regularly (macOS is my daily driver right now) and Windows has the way worse user experience.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nottorp on Monday March 18, 2024 @06:57AM (#39742395)
> iCloud is actively difficult not to use.

Agreed, but if you turn it off it stays off, it doesn't pop up something every day.

> The sidebar with the Apple shares and news apps.

I kinda know it's there, but I can't remember when I last activated it by mistake *. But then I turn off all notifications except app icon badges so I don't use it at all otherwise.

> Core OS that features only work when paired with iPad/iPhone.

Which ones? Doing phone calls and texts from your laptop? I suppose that requires control of the OS on both sides to work well. I don't know what's available on the Android side.

If there are other features that work when paired with apple mobiles and don't work with Android, I don't know about them.

* Last time I've seen that bar I think it was my cat's butt on the F keys :) She taught me a lot of keyboard shortcuts.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by weikju on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:28AM (#39741515)
Alas the corporate bloat wars ruins many a persons experience of macOS
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:21AM (#39741806)
Completely agree. Have been using a MBP for almost three years now at work (after using Windows machines for a couple of decades), and I can see how laughable many of the design decisions in macOS are (though I highly doubt they were deliberate 'decisions' at all), and I still fail to understand why people use them over Windows or Linux (sure, great hardware, mostly). It's probably fine as a consumer device, but for developers/power users the UI/UX is just bad. Finder, the built-in File Manager is an abomination of a software. It's like someone paid them to deliberately write a bad quality application.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by TheOtherHobbes on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:52AM (#39741983)
Finder has always been like that. There have been some updates, but the core features of the UI have barely changed since 10.1.

I'm finding this with software everywhere. Products keep doing the same old stupid shit they did when they were first released. "Refinements" are poorly-designed cruft.

Is there anyone in charge of the OS X experience? There seems to be a lot of resume development - features that can be illustrated with smiling people in a video but don't really work all that well - and not so much interest in the core UX.

I still find it better than Windows, but the gap between what it could be and what it is keeps growing.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by pacifika on Monday March 18, 2024 @07:06AM (#39742459)
What do you not like about finder?
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by nerdix on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:21PM (#39747163)
Enter to rename rather than open is one of the dumbest UX decisions ever made in a file manager. And then doubling down by not allowing any key remaps at all so you're stuck with it.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @03:50PM (#39749119)
Oh, then you were probably not pissed enough to search more thoroughly. :) Fortunately, there's a godsend man who wrote a utility called 'PresButan' - https://briankendall.net/presButan/index.htm . Doesn't always auto launch with the OS start for some reason, but works great when it's running and fixes this madness.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Monday March 18, 2024 @03:43PM (#39749044)
Oh ... Where to begin. I can write an essay on it, but just to name a few:

1. There's a button on my M3 Mac keyboard that says 'delete'. It deletes stuff everywhere else, but welcome to Finder, this simple button doesn't delete a file or a folder. They thought giving it a two/three keys combination was a better idea.

2. Similarly, they thought you rename file/folders more often in a day than you open them. Why else would they make you press two keys to open one, and the most common single button in the world to open files (Enter/return) to rename one instead?

3. No 'Cut' (I know the alternatives). One might find it surprising but there are fans that defend even this move - they say it's because this is more "intuitive". You only copy everything first and only at the time of pasting you decide whether you want to move it or copy it. I say, if that's really the case, why does every other app and Editor (including the ones made by Apple) have a Cut option? Why don't we always follow this more intuitive method of "copying" first and then pressing the Option button while pasting. Let's remove Cut from everything and see how intuitive people find it.

4. By default, the Finder doesn't even tell you where you are. That's a basic requirement from a File Manager. Sure, fiddle with the settings and at some place you'll find an option to kind of enable that.

5. No option to quickly create a text/other file in a given folder. If you've struggled enough and enabled the view where you're able to see where you are at the moment, there's a _chance_ you'd also see that from that view you can actually go to Terminal directly in that folder. Go there, and type `touch <filename>` to create a file in that folder.

6. You got a full path to go to somewhere on the disk. You quickly open Finder. Oh, the default view doesn't even have a place to paste it and hit Enter. Who could have thought to hide it? Same problem with the native 'File Open' dialog that's used by all the other apps on the system. Even if you have the full file path, unless you go to settings you won't find a way to go to that file directly.

7. No easy (if at all) way to persistently map a network drive that automatically remaps when the network drive is available. You have to keep connecting to the SMB server again and again.

8. Side bar folder shortcuts get removed when the folder is deleted and recreated for any reason. You have to recreate them. Not sure who made all these decisions or if they were even thought about.

9. No straight way to even 'Refresh' the files in a folder. Try going out and in, closing and reopening Finder and just 'hope' that it will update and show the newly created files or changed file properties outside. Many times it just doesn't.

10. 'Get Info' allows you to also 'Set' (a lot of) Info. This is UX 101. They could have just named it `Properties` instead.

11. Hell, you can't even maximize this app window by double clicking on the Title bar, unlike for example another Apple made app 'App Store'. No consistency.

12. In List view there's no padding, I can't even find a place where I can right click and paste a previously copied file in the 'current folder', without it hitting a subfolder and pasting the files into that instead (assuming the folder has many folders inside). I'm surprised no one found it in internal user testing.

These are just off top of my head, I'm sure I can find more if I spend some time. There might be involved solutions to these, but there's no way we can call this an 'intuitive' interface. And this is just one application in the whole Operation System.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by Wowfunhappy on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:00PM (#39749239)
> There's a button on my M3 Mac keyboard that says 'delete'. It deletes stuff everywhere else, but welcome to Finder, this simple button doesn't delete a file or a folder. They thought giving it a two/three keys combination was a better idea.

It would be pretty darn annoying if an accidental key press could just delete a file!

> No 'Cut' (I know the alternatives). One might find it surprising but there are fans that defend even this move - they say it's because this is more "intuitive". You only copy everything first and only at the time of pasting you decide whether you want to move it or copy it. I say, if that's really the case, why does every other app and Editor (including the ones made by Apple) have a Cut option? Why don't we always follow this more intuitive method of "copying" first and then pressing the Option button while pasting. Let's remove Cut from everything and see how intuitive people find it.

The problem is, where does a file go in between the time you cut and you paste? If you accidentally copy something else to your clipboard, do you loose the entire file? Does the file appear in the Trash or is it deleted permanently?

You could argue that the same problem exists for non-file content (like text) which Apple allows you to cut. I think files and folders are a bigger deal, though. There's a practical limit to how much you can highlight. A folder might contain your entire life's work. (Yes, hopefully you have backups, but better to not reach that point.)

> By default, the Finder doesn't even tell you where you are. That's a basic requirement from a File Manager. Sure, fiddle with the settings and at some place you'll find an option to kind of enable that.

`View` → `Show Path Bar`? I agree it should be enabled by default but it's so easy to change! You can also right click the folder icon at the top of the window, but Apple made this much more difficult beginning in macOS 11.

> You got a full path to go to somewhere on the disk.

I don't think non-developers ever end up in this situation. Those who do can use `Go` → `Go to Folder...`. I realize it's not in the toolbar but it's right in the menu bar.

> In List view there's no padding, I can't even find a place where I can right click and paste a previously copied file in the 'current folder', without it hitting a subfolder and pasting the files into that instead (assuming the folder has many folders inside).

Click the gear in the toolbar → `paste`.

---

I think your other points are valid, and I think the Mac's UX has declined a ton ever since OS X 10.9 in 2013. But I feel quite strongly the above complaints are merely different from other operating systems (and thus what you are used to), not actually worse.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by piyush_soni on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @02:39AM (#39753456)
> It would be pretty darn annoying if an accidental key press could just delete a file! : - Isn't the 'Bin' made exactly for that purpose? And also, just like any other accidental delete, Undo is always there. Very easy!

> The problem is, where does a file go in between the time you cut and you paste? : - It doesn't have to go anywhere, it's just "marked for" 'cut', just like a file marked for copying doesn't go anywhere until you paste it. All other Operating Systems have got it exactly right for eons. If you accidentally copy something else, that mark is removed, and the file is still happily sitting where it was. (Windows even shows it visually in their File Explorer). No safety hazard. I don't understand your other point - be it my entire life's work, it's always at one place or the other. It can't go to a third place, and in any case Undo and Bin are always there. At least in Windows moved files go back to their previous places on Undo. This is a much more intuitive default, making sure a recovery option is always there for exceptions.

> `View` → `Show Path Bar` : Yes, that's what I had done, but imagine having a proper address bar which both tells you where you are, and is editable so can be used to paste a new address to go to. That will be much more intuitive, and that's what other OSs have done.

> Click the gear in the toolbar → `paste`. : I don't see a gear icon, but sure, I can also do it using Cmd+V and also from the Edit Menu. But a 'Paste Item' is still there in the Context menu that is unusable in a lot of situations. Wasn't Steve Jobs really particular about pixel perfectness? I don't see that here.

I didn't even talk about my other problems with this OS especially when you use non-Apple hardware. I just want to point out that unlike what a lot of people believe, Windows (and even modern Linux) UI is much more intuitive and arguably causes less repetitive strain injury to our hands with more frequent OS operations made easier. The only thing I had found great in Mac's UI was Spotlight (though even that leaves a lot to be desired), but Windows now offers that too under their new PowerToys fleet of applications (less capable in some places but it should only get better) and I think people should give it a try.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by Razengan on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:45AM (#39741951)
> Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS

My opinion and experience is the exact opposite. In fact, I switched to Macs BECAUSE of how good macOS was for development and just general work and daily life.

Around 10-12 years ago I got an iPad, my first ever Apple purchase, as a gift for my aunt. I loved how simple and clean iOS was and found the apps and games interesting, so I thought I'd dabble in iOS dev. I was on Windows 8 at the time (and already sick of Microsoft's bs) so I downloaded a VMWare image for Mac OS X Lion.

As the days went by I found myself spending more time in macOS than in Windows, and enjoying it! A month later I bought my first ever MacBook and never looked back.

Well, sometimes I do look back at Windows, in a VM on macOS, just to try some games, and man, it's still a sad joke in 2024.

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by bowsamic on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:47AM (#39741614)
It's not a psyop, people are just having different experiences to you. I've had endless problems on Windows and Linux machines, and never had a serious or even annoying issue on a mac
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by xcv123 on Monday March 18, 2024 @05:15AM (#39741772)
Sounds like your Mac is broken. Hardware fault. I've been using multiple Macs daily with a third party 4k display, Docker, and stable network connection for years. No issues with any of that. Never needs rebooting aside from installing OS updates.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by carstenhag on Monday March 18, 2024 @04:38AM (#39741568)
Effectively, software/hardware is hard and you will have issues in some way with all platforms.
Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by 0xcrypto on Monday March 18, 2024 @02:29PM (#39748082)
Agree with this. I tried to create objective C files in xcode 15.2 many times, spent days thinking I must have messed up somewhere and finally I found this https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/743032.

Tried updating to latest xcode, learned that my Mac's storage is almost full. Why? iOS simulator images were taking a whopping 40 GB of space even when I didnt target those iOS versions nor tested on those simulator devices. I uninstalled all the images keeping the one I build for. Next tried updating Xcode again, the issue with creating objective C files was fixed. But then it forced me to download the iOS 17.2 again along with tvOS and a bunch of other extra things. Now my space is close to full again. Why Apple? Why do I need iOS 17.2 when I build for 15.4?

Re:macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine by lenkite on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @05:49PM (#39760641)
I only started using macOS a decade ago. OSX was good in the past - smooth, clean, minimal-reboots and lightning fast. It has progressively become worse and worse over time in most aspects with some marginal improvements in other aspects.

The hardware definitely keeps getting better and yet the software keeps getting worse. sigh.

I mean they have even screwed up a nice app like iBooks. I used to use it for reading ePubs all the time, but now I dread opening up one. Lags like crazy. And so many crashes and reboots needed. Keep submitting crash reports but fairly certain that no-one ever reads them.

Yes, remarkably today - the Windows desktop needs less reboots than macOS today. Can anecdotally confirm this with 2 windows PC's, 3 windows laptops and 3 Macbooks in the family.