https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...
As well as in the section above it.
I don't mean that SS is a bad program, it works for lots of people and it's very accessible. But I also think it's way oversold and not magic.
It isn't the right starter program for everyone, but then, nothing is. The best program for the beginner is whichever one keeps you consistently showing up and moving forward.
Other recommended programs like 5/3/1 are not "more complex," that's a false dichotomy. They're just as simple but with different sets of exercises.
I train 5/3/1 now, I have for years, I love it, and I absolutely do not recommend it to beginners. I've tried. Their eyes glaze over when you start talking about "training maxes" and "periodization". They get confused and lose whatever sliver of motivation they had. Save the optimization for when they're bought in. Any beginner is gonna make progress on essentially any structured program just due to neuroadaptation. Premature optimization is the root of all evil.
I tried to start lifting multiple times. SL 5x5 is what actually made it click. Now that I know what I'm doing, I could write volumes on its flaws, but what I needed wasn't a technically optimized program, but one which gave me a clear goal for each workout and an easy way to see what the path forward looked like.
As the reddit beginner program correctly notes:
> The primary goal is to be a simple, easy to follow routine that will help beginners get into the gym, start training with the standard barbell lifts, and build a habit of going to the gym consistently. Consistency over time is the biggest point of failure in making progress, and the aim is to lower the barrier as far as possible to starting and staying consistent.
The point of a beginner program really isn't the volume moved or optimizing the particular split, but to give the beginner a structure on which to build routine and learn good habits. It helps no one to crap on Starting Strength, when it has an established history of achieving exactly that goal. Offering things like the reddit program as a potentially superior alternative is fine to the eager newbie, but telling people that Starting Strength is a bad way to start is just counterproductive.
My advice to every new lifter is that the best program for them is the one that gets them going back to the gym consistently, and I'll continue to stand behind that. It's not SS for everyone - and that's fine. But it is SS for a lot of people, and that's also fine.
That attributes success not to the program but to mindset. He may well be lifting despite lack of success.
Comparing 5/3/1 or a reddit post to SS indicates a complete lack of familiarity.
You can use dismissive like survivorship bias all you’d like, but end do the day Rip knows and runs a tier 1 program to get in life shape. It’s very difficult to read SS and execute it as designed and not come to that conclusion.
Starting Strength remains the absolute best way for a novice to gain general-purpose strength.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...
You can't compare that to r/fitness in the least.
And it's infinitely fun to hit stuff
I will upvote it and add some context.
* thefitness.wiki is maintained by Reddit's r/fitness and it's a great resource.
* Parent had to use an archive.org link because thefitness.wiki long ago removed the post he linked to.
* I suspect they removed the post because thefitness.wiki now has a 'Basic Beginner Routine' which is similar to Starting Strength, and tells you this is what you should start with. https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-ro...
* I've done both BBR and SS. I prefer BBR but they're both fine places to start. They both basically have you cycle through the staple compound lifts and if you're not already trained this is the best thing you can do for your body. The health benefits of simply doing each compound lift at least once a week plus eating a ton of protein cannot be overstated, they are life changing.
* I'll editorialize here but I feel both BBR and SS are designed for younger, fitter, more hardcore "beginners" than me, especially SS. I was a 40+, out of shape desk jockey and the cadence at which they want you to increase weight was too much for me. Also with these big lifts you NEED to get the technique right or you WILL hurt yourself.
That's in addition to very gradually adding some sort of cardio like walks around the block. Being sedentary is going to be more of a struggle to overcome than strength - you will find that the strength you used to have will come back quickly when you start training again, but as a guy in the exact same boat, the cardiovascular side is the tough part. I am getting strong again really quickly but I am getting winded half way through a strength workout, let alone actually trying to jog.
I wouldn't recommend any changes to it, other than taking it easy if you need to.
The biggest struggle I had when I was totally out of shape was just how tough even a light workout was. It's fine to take it easy and not increase the weights you're lifting aggressively, for instance. Or even to go to the gym twice a week instead of three times. If it's not an easy and fun part of your life you'll fall off the wagon.
Basically you can be a physical wreck at 40, to a degree that a 23 year old guy can't even comprehend. All simply because you didn't exercise.
Just keep showing up regularly, doing the compound lifts SAFELY but heavy enough to tire out your muscles, and eating your protein (100g+ daily, there are formulas to calculate it precisely).
It might take a little longer for us older sedentary guys but everything will come together.
A good personal trainer (or physical therapist if you start hitting issues?) is absolutely worth it if you can get one, one advantage we older guys have is we're more likely to have the spare cash for this.
If you’re familiar with SS, what worked for me was a modified version. I threw out the linear progression and squat 3x times a week goals, and focused on lifting 3x a week come hell or high water and hit 5+ increases if I was able. 30-60 days of that, you’re back at an easy point to decide to get “really fit” or just stay active.
Day 1: squat 3x5, DL 3x10, lunges (the second week, DL 1x5, squat 3x10)
Day 2: bench 3x5, press 3x10, push-ups (swap bench and press same as above week 2)
Day 3: row 3x5, pull-ups, arms/w-e else.
I’m nowhere near when I was strong but my numbers make Me feel ok about things now, as I know I’m now out of the dangerzone of out of shape AF
I know reddit loves 5/3/1 and pretends that nothing else exists. Great example of the reddit echo chamber for something that isn't a political topic.
5x5 program got my bench to 275 when I was younger. I think it's fine.
Really after years of trying all these systems the only that will work for sure is getting in the gym consistently and lifting heavy. Everything else is mostly a distraction. Like min/maxing in wow
The nice thing about lifting is results speak for them self. If your going to keep posting this link as solid advice, maybe share your lifts...
So you barely lift...?
The person I was responding to is talking about SS, why 5/3/1 is more appropriate, and things of that nature.
If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
> If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
I think you have a severely skewed idea of what it is common to lift.
Your view of what can be done in the gym is distorted by the gym you are in.
Back Squat 275 2 rm
Front Squat 225 2 rm
Deadlift 375 2 rm
Bench 175 5x5
OHP 135 5x5
C&J 125 1x5
Snatch 105 1x5
With my primary program being SS and then SS like (do the set 5x5 or appropriate at the work weight, advance by appropriate increment). That's the rough master plan at least.
Not advising. Merely sharing my experience. Simplicity of adherence maximized adherence. Visible progress increased adherence.
If you're a couch potato dev who sits all day and does no physical activity - just doing random shit with your bodyweight or empty bar will get you sore for the first month.
Overloading yourself with pointless movements that are meant to target specific muscle groups is completely irrelevant for the first year. Go to gym - find heavy stuff you can pick up - try not to do anything stupid.
SS is great because it has a low number of movements, volume is irrelevant when you get sore from a barbell squat, learning how to lift is deceptively complicated (breathing/bracing/muscle activation).
The article keeps straw-manning "longterm" this and that - SS is your first year in the gym (or less). By the time you're trough with it, unless you're totally oblivious, you'll pick up on other stuff when you have the time. And you'll have a decent intuition of how to lift, understand recovery implications, consistency in training, and a decent base strength. It's a great base to get you started and have an achievable progression framework that doesn't require much tutoring or time.
I've seen plenty of people get from 0 to nice lifting strength in ~1 year by doing SS. The only thing that's relevant is consistency - if you come in 2-3x a week and do something difficult for an hour for a year - you will see results - it can be total fucking around - you will still get results. It's good to start with SS type exercises because those well defined movements target your entire body, and if you learn to execute them correctly you reduce your chance of injury.
TL;DR - for any newbie out there that's in bad shape and looking to start gym - save yourself time and avoid "optimal muscle development" crowd. None of those arguments apply to you and are completely irrelevant. Don't trust me ? Go to the gym and do 5x5 with an empty bar and see if you're sore after the workout.
I read the critique. It's basically "you don't do enough volume for certain exercises", "you'll end up doing too many squatting and looking funny", "their approach to stall isn't optimal".
It sounds like a www.bodybuilding.com forum rant. Someone arguing why micronized whey is superior to non-micronized. It's ultra-optimization.
If you're someone looking to get started, you're looking to get started, not optimize for a bodybuilding competition. If you like SS, and it gets you actually lifting, then it's good.
And the really good thing about SS is the focus on proper technique. It's more important than how much you lift.
Injury defence is a benefit of lifting that is undersold I think. By strengthening all the muscles that support your movement, and limbering up connective tissues you are much less likely to get injured in general life like you said.
It takes time to develop a good squat. Many people seem to be limited by their range of motion, especially in the ankles, at least to start off with.
I myself had _terrible_ knee pain from squatting. Then my knee started randomly buckling when I would walk.
So I started filming myself. I also used TUBOW [3] to figure out that my knees were drifting far too forward. I corrected my technique accordingly, and started engaging the hips properly. My knee pain went away and I've been pain-free ever since.
- [1] Learn to Squat, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoikoUEI8U
- [2] Squats and Your Knees, https://startingstrength.com/article/squats-and-your-knees
- [3] Using the TUBOW with Mark Rippetoe, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P_w6dpDC2ICheck out "knees over toes guy", he has a wealth of good free information on knee recovery.
I'm 30 and I squat pain free twice per week despite 3 knee dislocations. Good luck friend
In my personal experience, as a now more seasoned lifter, most people have knee pain in squats because they load the quads and arrest the squat early with the quads rather than hitting full depth. Once your hip crease is below the top of your kneecap, your quads are no longer bearing the load! If you're stopping the lift prior to that, then you're applying a ton of torque to the knee directly with the quad, rather than letting the much more robust posterior chain absorb the energy of the descent.
If you haven't tried squatting low-bar, you might give it a go - it makes it much easier to move with the posterior chain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo is my single favorite squat video on the internet. Lots of really good info in it.
But, if you don't see improvement, I highly recommend seeing someone who can diagnose and correct how you move.
I do think weight training is important, but with physical limitations...
That goes away once the muscles gain strength.
I've had a personal trainer for years now and in my early 40s I can squat merrily with no pain. Also my neck and back pain have vanished, along with headaches I used to get that would start around the back of my neck and move over my head.
Strength training really is amazing. My only regret is 20 years as an adult not doing it.
My wife taking every excuse to touch my leg muscles is just an added bonus!
Over the shoulder throws and ball slams were my leg exercises for a long time.
Edit: the main thing was having a good pt who was aware of my injuries. They could tell me when to stop and when to push.
With those surgeries, starting under the supervision of a PT is a great idea, though. They'll know how to build you up safely.
Point being, if you don't know what's causing your knee pain, it's probably a good idea to figure it out first, then think about what could help.
> I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG
Yes -- this is really important to contextualize.
Barbell resistance training is actually two things:
1) A method of exercise that has a variety of well-quantified health benefits including improvements in strength, bone density, and connective tissue. More muscle also means you can eat more without getting fat.
2) A competitive strength sport (generally called powerlifting; weightlifting usually refers to the explosive overhead lifts seen at the Olympics).
Your strength goals can, and should, depend entirely on your objectives. If you're aiming to compete, a 150KG squat and 200KG deadlift would put you around the median in the lowest male weight classes.
If you just want to get in shape, it's overkill.
But maybe its different if you look at amateurs.
Again this is really contextual! If you're doing this casually, sure, that's probably decently stronger than the average person off the street. If you're looking to compete it's only impressive if you're a 70 year old woman.
In competition, generally the biggest athletes have lower bodyweight multiples, especially the superheavyweights. This makes sense: there's no weight limit in the highest weight class, so all that matters is moving the most weight possible and body composition tends to go out the window.
0. https://www.strengthlog.com/deadlift-strength-standards-kg/
For example the beginner on there is 76kg. I think it'd be a bad idea for a guy who's 40 years old, untrained and out of shape to rock up and deadlift 50kg, even just for one rep. He wouldn't know what to expect, he'd get the form wrong, he'd probably hurt his back. People who aren't trained should start with the bar, sometimes they're better off starting with even less than the bar and that is fine!
30kg DL is 5kg on each side of a 20kg bar which is less than I've lifted my very first time and I was pretty unfit and I'm sure the vast majority of untrained people can lift that. Hell, that's easier than bar-only bench press, which most people can also easily do on their first try.
* 20kg-30kg makes sense for an untrained person's first lift, it sounds like we agree. With DL you need some plates on the bar to get the right height so 5kg bumper plates or something is common.
* All of this is still way below the numbers even for beginners on the site you linked, which again I stress, is a self-selected group of people who were hardcore enough to opt into a performance tracking app of some kind, this is way different from the general population.
* I actually don't agree that the vast majority of people could just bust out, let's say, 10 reps at 30kg of any lift. Women and older men who have never lifted? I really doubt it. A year ago it was hard for me to do 10 body weight squats, no bar no nothing, and most of my middle aged friends who have never exercised are probably still in the same boat. 40% of the US is obese... I think this perspective is biased basically towards young men (lets say under 40).
For me, bearing in mind all this injury discussion, I've focused on form 100%. When doing free weight exercises, this forces a whole bunch of other, secondary, "stabilization" muscles to some work. It's those, especially if they end up spending all day "locked" because of your posture, which can produce a lot of the minor pains of age, so give them a workout.
Each day, before anything else:
1. 3 mins stretching
2. 20 (real) situps (3 mins)
3. 10 pushups (2 mins)
I actually usually do a good bit more exercise more than this, but this is my minimum day starting routine, no matter where I am, or what I'm doing. It takes less than 10 minutes and keeps a bare minimum of strength in your lower back and arms. The lower back part is key for people who work in chairs all day. You can do a lot of types of exercise and still not maintain those lower back muscles which are so key to ensure your lumbar is protected.
You don’t need to hit the gym for an hour to feel the results. Like parent poster is doing, body weight exercises are terrific.
I would also like to say that planks are an extremely effective exercise.
Title is a catchy "burn belly fat" but it's more like core training + cardio. It looks scary but anyone (without a precluding condition) can do it.
It's only HIIT if you make it so, the key is to pace yourself according to your level, going slow if needed so as to complete each of the 30s.
If you can't do the full range, do a partial range, but do that range with proper form so as not to hurt yourself, don't force through it, it'll get better over time.
Aim for consistency, not short term record.
Side note: lubricate joints before (do rotations and flexing), stretch after exercise: stretching before increases risk of injury. If you really want to stretch before, do dynamic stretching, not static.
* doing only sit-ups and push-ups strengthens frontside massively, so front-back is not balanced, further increasing the forward arching position (starting with nerd neck) induced by long term sitting. Front training is important for all-day sitters as these muscles (which should be engaged all along the day but are not) atrophy, but overtraining front (vs back) amplifies the issue.
> awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.
True. Still, don't do it (or, I mean, do it the proper way)
Not to say that strength training isn't good for you of course. But it may not actually prepare you for things to come (unlike having a healthy family life, an identity outside work and physical fitness).
One of his siblings is in his early 60's, retired, and can only be described as "active". He's not powerlifting or anything like that but gym, cycling, gardening, every day or other day. He's on his second hip, soon to be third.
His other sibling is late 50's, also on their second hip about to get their third. They're limited to 2-300 yards of walking, can't really stand unaided for long periods of time, struggle with their sleep, etc etc.
The easiest comparison is that the older one is, and always has been more active. Sure it's complicated, sure you can't prepare for an unexpected diagnosis, but I'd you're 60 with no active health scares, your quality of life is going to be dictated by how much you looked after yourself, not just luck.
same right back at you.
just because at some point you might (or I guess you and the author are arguing will) get injured doesn't mean strengthening yourself is invalid. in fact healthier and in better shape you are the less likely you are to suffer debilitating injury.
tweaking my strong knee that is used to squatting heavy weights and otherwise supporting active lifting is way different than my father tweaking he's knee with artificial joint.
at least for me the problem is lettings things get worse. I should learn to seek help/corrective action right away, but I always just want to "see if I can ride it out" which can then turn into months of unnecessary suffering with long lasting issues. pre-emptively starting resistance training is very beneficial for most people.
Lifting weights isn't going to do much to prevent your hearing going bad, or eyes degrading and needing corrective lenses, or not being able to move otherwise you'll wake the newly born baby who's finally gotten to sleep.
This article is a rebuttal against the myth that "accessibility" is for "other people", that "disabled" and "abled" are two different camps, and accessibility tech is only something used by completely blind people in wheelchairs, which will never happen to me. We're all just temporarily abled. Even throughout the day we go through a range of ability with our physical body - even if it's just needing to respond to a phone while cooking and your hands are covered in raw chicken.
Lifting weights won't help you with your eyes or ears, but being in better physical health translates to better mental health, which translates to better ability to cope with all limitations.
People who just sit still as they age deteriorate incredibly fast in more ways than one.
I guess this article can be eye opening for anyone who has lived in a bubble without them, their relatives, or friends suffering from any issues, but that has to be exceedingly rare.
You can prepare for injuries. You can strengthen your body and joints to prevent physical injuries, you can keep active mind to prevent mental issues, you can wear PPE to protect from most sudden sight and hearing losses. You should wear gloves while handling raw meats, it is more hygienic and makes cleaning a lot faster and more pleasant.
Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.
Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?
Sure it does. Angus Barbieri fasted for 382 days successfully.
In the same vein, working on one's body strengthens future potential disabilities, but not all, such as sight and hearing. However, most people who become disabled later in life begin to have orthopedic injuries rather than completely losing sight and hearing, which of course they lose but not to the same extent as getting arthritis etc. So the point of strengthening one's body is still valid.
I think we are so far ideologically from each other that we can't even communicate. I can not follow this logic at all.
I still do resistance training, but with higher reps and less weight. Not incrementally increasing the weight as SS prescribes.
1. Pull: such as pullup
2. Push: towards one arm one leg pushup
3. Legs: Pistol up (=1 leg squat)
4. Core: V-ups and bridge works for me.
Once we went carting with the company. Everybody was sore afterwards in all kinds of places (software devs :)). I was fine.
My father was admitted to hospital for something, and spent a few weeks on the ward. When he was released he was super frail and had to use a walker. Losing strength is easy, getting it back (especially in your 80's) is damn hard.
At 40, I was stronger than I was as a high school wrestler. I loved lifting. I remember casually picking up a piece of equipment that took two burly guys to lift and jumping down from a pickup with it.
But over the course of several years, I picked up several small but persistent injuries lifting. Two can be worked around. One makes it very hard to squat for more than a few weeks of training. None of the injuries, fortunately, affects me noticeably in daily life. But I'll never wide-grip bench press again, either.
When I was coming to terms with these injuries, I had a long talk with the oldest natty lifters in my gym. The powerlifers were all dealing with various chronic injuries. (Seriously, Rippetoe has published a bit of his medical history. He's a mess of injuries.)
But you know who was still lifting in their 60s and even 70s, injury-free for decades at a stretch? The bodybuilders. One of the oldest looked over at me one day, and said, "You know, I don't like the risk/reward on heavy squats. You do them flawlessly for years, and then one day, a group of muscle fibers decides to misfire for a moment when you're under the bar."
So, enjoy Starting Strength, or whatever other beginner program Reddit likes this year. And the two Starting Strength certified coaches I've known were excellent. Good technique is absolutely worth it. But once you've gotten those sweet beginner gains, talk to the old lifters, and think long and hard about where you want to go next. Because nothing is as important as remaining injury-free. And every older powerlifter I met was dealing with chronic injuries.
Once gains get difficult, think about what you really want out of lifting.
When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
And in any case, I wouldn't take Rippetoe as an example of good scientific programming these days. It's good for getting people into lifting, but Starting Strength has a powerlifting fetish for no good reason, and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.). Then recently I saw a Starting Strength video in which they claimed that the really grindy reps at the end of the set are the ones that make all the difference (for strength anyway), which as far as I'm aware is false and probably harmful, as you can do way more training volume with less risk of injury (I would expect) if you keep some reps away from failure.
The gym is generally a safe hobby, but scientific bodybuilding, with its large sets, slow eccentrics and focus on the stretch is definitely the safest way to lift for longevity.
Yeah, don't do GOMAD unless you're a 17-year-old teenage boy with a BMI of 18.5 who wants to be a linebacker or something. Some of the Starting Strength advice is... very situational, to put it politely as possible.
Their coaching certification, however, means more than 95% of the "personal trainer" certifications you'll see in the average gym.
> When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
The oldest powerlifer I knew well who wasn't dealing with chronic injuries was a 40-year-old women's masters competitor. She competed around 135 or 139 lbs bodyweight, I think? She was absolutely a beast, with near flawless form and an excellent coaching eye.
Besides her? Almost every other long-term powerlifter I met was nursing some injury. But what really stood out to me was the absence of old powerlifters in my local gyms. There were old lifters in amazing shape. But none of them were grinding out the really heavy squats and deadlifts.
But don't take my word for it. All I'm recommending is that when new powerlifters max out their newbie gains, they take a good hard look around their local gym, and see who has decades of happy lifting under their belt. Ask those folks about their training plans and injury histories and PED use. You may see different patterns than I did. But for lifelong fitness, avoiding chronic injuries is everything.
Seems like in your 30s you start to realize the limits and tradeoffs and by your 40s most have accepted that longevity is the main goal - if it’s not too late and they destroyed a knee or back or something else.
In general, for a compound lift (squat/bench/deadlift/overhead press) most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis (assuming a normal weekly schedule). This is the point when various forms of periodization (waving weight/reps/frequency up/down in many possible ways) need to start to support the increase of weight/reps over time.
This is likely to happen after about 3 months.
I don't really agree that the kind of weights you can achieve after 3 months pose a meaningfully elevated injury risk, unless your form is terrible or you have some existing condition.
Now I believe that a lot of physical training isn't that healthy. And if you put your whole personal identity on your physical abilities then when your abilities start to decline, as they naturally do from age 40 and up, you may spiral out of control and literally die.
I believe he suffered from an illness, but in general I suppose having a full-contact punching and kicking bouts with gigantic men isn't very good for your long-term health anyway. Especially in Kyokushin where they have (had?) no weight classes.
I actually don't think it is the direct damage from fighting that gets them but more the inability to stop and scale your commitment to what you can and can no longer do.
In Isshinryu, there's none of that. You stop the punch/kick before the joint goes to lock. The stances are much shallower. The movements are less dramatic. My sensei told me it is much more sustainable this way, and many of the old taekwondo folks end up with joint issues specifically in knees and elbows. I don't know if it's related, but my knees and elbows are the two parts of my body which are most problematic.
It's also possible my taekwondo instructor just didn't know about this, that was a long time ago.
Performance enhancing drugs
In other words, train for power (rather than hypertrophy), but instead of using barbells, use dumbbells or machines, to minimize the risk of injury?
Anyway with most machines you won't be able to load it heavy enough quite soon.
I think there is also happy middle ground where you train for strength but not into extremes - you progress at slower pace and prioritize form. I would say bodybuilders can also be strong and healthy but they can't use that strength properly (because of the type of training they do) and destroy their health with drugs.
I mean, if they are the type that are using steroids and such things, sure. The other sort that are into drugs just gets stoned and lift weights. The risks just aren't the same: Sure, you are going to do some damage with pot, but not the same sort and you'll certainly not be so much worse than the person that gets stoned and plays games a lot of the day or gets stoned and works at a gas station.
(I worked with an ex-professional body builder: He was the second type and couldn't compete with the steroid crowd. He was OK with that)
The thing machines have that free weights don't are in-built safeties, either by design or as a discrete component (e.g. smith machine). The only machine I can think of that you can get seriously injured on is a leg press machine, whereas there are a multitude of ways to hurt yourself with free weights, especially any exercise where you're under the bar. I say this as someone who has historically trained with a ton of emphasis on the Big 5/Golden 5 compound movements (i.e. not machines). The safety aspect is a big reason casual fitness clubs (e.g. Planet Fitness) have no barbells on the premises.
I don't have injury stats on machines versus free weights. Almost all the serious lifters I knew (bodybuilders or powerlifters) did plenty of free weight work. This included one 67-year-old bodybuilder in amazing shape who'd been injury-free for decades. He used a mix of free weights and machines, but he didn't squat the kinds of weights the serious powerlifters did, either.
You can make yourself a lot stronger than the average person with pretty low risk of injury, if your technique is good. As far as I can tell, you can do it pretty safely with a squat rack, some safety bars, a bench, a bar, and some weights. According to BroScience(TM), lol, the advantage of free weights is that if you have good technique, then you wind up working large parts of your body as a unified system, or something. (Bro science is like blog posts on unit testing; everyone's got a theory and almost nobody has numbers.)
But once you hit "a lot stronger than the average person", where do you go next? Do you maintain? Do you keep trying to lift more? Do you decide to go for a bit of hypertrophy?
And that's where I think it makes sense to talk to the old lifters, and look for patterns. Don't believe me. I'm just some guy on the Internet. Go talk to the old guys who've been doing it for 40 years and who aren't wearing tons of wraps and tape. By the time you need to make these decisions, you'll likely know some old guys at your gym, anyways.
So my completely uneducated opinion is, machines might be worse in the long run.
One group goes after the raw numbers regardless of aesthetics.
The other is mostly aesthetics.
You can't go for aesthetics without chasing numbers to some degree. You do, after all, have to build that muscle you want to show off.
Rest well, eat enough, don't push it when something is feeling a "little weird" with some muscle. My worst injury as a beginner 10+ years ago was to finish a deadlift routine after feeling a muscle slightly pulled after the first rep, I had a bad lower back pain for weeks that left me uncomfortable doing anything: laying down, sitting, walking, etc.
If you don't know any bodybuilders I'd recommend getting a good coach on your beginner phase to fix your form, you don't need to keep a coach after you learn the basics, and bad form is the #1 source of injuries at lowest levels. Starting Strength is a decent beginner routine but over time you'll want to add some auxiliary exercises to work smaller muscles, in my routine I like to start the training session with big lifts (deadlift, squat, standing barbell rows, chin ups/pull ups, bench press, and overhead presses) and after those I follow with auxiliary movements (face pulls, dumbbell presses/curls, calves, etc.).
I chose to not push myself past a level I got comfortable with, never tried a deadlift heavier than 220kg, my squats hover between 130-140kg, bench press around 80kg, military press around 55-60kg. I feel strong enough and been injury-free for years, it's a good maintenance level and my goal with lifting has always to just keep mobility in older age, not to keep growing muscles/strength as far as I could push.
And of course there's the variable of age as well.
An example, when I was trying to push my bench press over 87,5kg I was going with 1-2 sets of warm-up (~8-10x 70kg then adding 5kg to the 2nd warm up), followed by: 1 set of 5x85kg, 5x87,5kg and trying to go 3x90kg but noticed I was failing the 3x90kg set for 4+ weeks in a row, I kinda knew it was going to take more effort and a different approach than just my very basic way to increase load, I was happy with lifting 87,5kg on the bench and just stopped trying to push it further.
Age has definitely affected my recovery time, stamina, etc. but because I've been lifting on-off since my teens playing tennis, and only focusing on strength training for its own sake later in my 20s. I do have a "baseline" that I can reach in about 4-6 months even when I stop training completely for a while, the strength you gain changes your muscles (I think it creates extra nuclei in muscle cells, unsure how true that is, lots of pseudoscience in fitness-world) and it comes back. That's one of the main reasons I recommend all of my sedentary friends to try lifting for a while, it will help when one is older.
The problem is once people get to that - why would they stop?
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-...
Overall injury incidence in strength sports is very low. But if you do it to compete, maybe there is an argument to be made that pushing the limits increases it.
Overall though, the much greater risk is to not train. Whether you do barbell movements or machines is not a determinant of of health outcomes, as far as we know.
I would not put stock in anecdote without some numbers on injuries among non-competing powerlifters.
- you will never achieve anything resembling impressive as an amateur natty no matter what you do. PED use is so common now they're the standard for comparisons
- your pay check does not depend on achieving certain results. Look at the pros when they stop competing, they know it's not worth pushing it any more
- any persistent injury significantly affects your life quality. A very mild shoulder RSI makes sleeping and sex complicated
- training 3 times a week for decades offers plenty of opportunities to make mistakes so you need to leave a big margin for safety
- 80/20 rule applies to the effort and results and to the risk and rewards
It's better to not work out and not be injured than it is to work out and be injured, so the focus should first be on avoiding injury and second on actually going out and doing stuff. Same reason we watch safety videos before we do the thing they concern.
Once you start making gains it does become addictive especially if (like me) you have some uh let’s call it mental health challenges.
After sustaining a number of injuries I finally learned to stop looking at the numbers, to stop comparing myself on exrx or symmetric strength. I just go to the gym and have fun. I still do the major movements but I always make sure to leave a little in the tank. I always listen to my body first and foremost. If it doesn’t feel right, it doesn’t feel right.
I have different approach, with similar result so far to those bodybuilders without actually doing it - don't lift your max, but do it with free weights as much as possible, in good form (the most important bit long term). You don't need to look ridiculously bulked, say well-defined is more than enough, even for women's attractivity. Those massive muscles always hide very unhealthy eating habits (ie > 200g of protein every day will mess up your organs and joints badly over decades) and tons of injuries, plus they are very hard to maintain if you actually want to be happy in your life and do other stuff.
I strongly recommend removing some weights and adding repetitions, you can still reach failure threshold if you want, but in much safer way. Easier to maintain perfect form for each exercise too. You mention lifting heavy stuff in weird positions - that's recipe for injury regardless of age or shape, rather just be a bit smarter with lifting.
What is much better to be able to have some stamina - weightlifting on the limits alone ain't going to give you much of that (saw more than once a ripped guy who didn't do any cardio trying to make >1000m altitude difference hike, well he struggled a lot, on a way up and then knee pain started say in the middle of descent).
There are tons of things apart from main, most visible muscle groups that you really want to train - small stabilizing muscles, tendons, ligaments, joint flexibility, and stamina for all of those. Body is a complex and interconnected system, no point overdeveloping just few main parts for the show or mirror look, rather work on everything.
I myself am pretty happy with where I'm at and don't plan on trying to squat 300KG. I appreciate there's a higher risk of injury pushing myself to my limits. And the amount of investment (time in the gym, getting a coach or learning enough to program for that level) is not worth it.
But for anyone who isn't strong and is looking to get strong quickly, starting strength is the best bet.
Someone that goes for regular long walks is better off than a powerlifter, I doubt you would consider that a convincing argument against the gym.
One observation I had was that people coming to the gym to spend majority of their time on the treadmill are mostly women. I'm not sure if it is to lose weight, or simply because with infrastructure hostile to walking, the likelihood of problematic encounters increases greatly. Though I wouldn't feel entirely safe walking around at 23:00 without my dog either.
Many cultures and countries ranked as healthy, and I mean overall like children to elderly are places where people walk everywhere. They aren't all power lifting or even going to gyms.
Strength training is good but overall daily activity is best.
The via media comes with difficulty as it requires reason and discernment, whereas extremes are easy and mindless, and people either under-exercise (the more common case) or over-exercise.
But historically, I would argue that we see more extreme "fitness" fads today than we did previously. Really dumb stuff that no longer has anything to do with health or fitness or beauty and more to do with some weird obsession.
His approach to shoulder training might be of interest too if one of your injuries is shoulder related
But to take an example, there's not much you can do to rehab a partial TFCC tear in your 40s. There just isn't enough blood flow. I could get surgery, but my TFCC is already better than 90% of surgical outcomes.
It rarely affects me in daily life, but I can't train wide grip bench presses without immobilizing the wrist with a steel brace.
Once you hit 40, you can still get strong. But sooner or later, a doctor's going to sit down with you and say, "There's nothing I can do to fix this that won't make things worse."
But as another doctor told me, "Look, you have a choice. As you age, you can spend too much time talking to your orthopedic surgeon, or too much time talking to your cardiologist." Physical activity is essential, but it comes at a price. Staying as injury-free as you can manage is everything.
I have no interest in competing/fairness, the only weight training I do is a) very light and b) just to have slightly stronger muscles to make the life I want to live easier (from going on nice walks to cycling to being able to pick up a heavy object without stress etc.)
So I don't care about stats or achievements or how my muscles look, but if there was a pill that could make me stronger for less effort without any side effects or risks I'd be more than happy to take it. But I guess that's still a pipe dream and I just need to keep on putting up with doing exercise more than I particularly want to?
That said, one supplement (not a PED) that is widely used and well-studied in the body-building world is creatine. Just make sure you drink enough water, as it causes you to retain a bit of water (I learned this the hard way, waking up with a bloody nose it dried my sinuses out so much).
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20...
But for a beginning lifter, I wouldn't bother. Early on, literally every single workout will bring you bigger gains than creatine will. Do your 3x5 or 5x5 sets, go back a few days later, add 5 pounds. Easy.
Creatine makes the most sense once you've been lifting for a few months, and once you've figured out your diet, and your progress is starting to slow. As I understand it, it's tweaking your intramuscular energy storage just enough to turn a 9 rep set into a 10 rep set. Which is a good deal once you've exhausted your newbie gains.
But it's not going to do much for someone who's exercising casually.
Creatine will let you push an 8 rep set to 9 or 10. And when every pound on the bar is bought with two weeks of complicated periodization, that little bit helps. And creatine is allowed by basically every athletic league.
Real PEDs are a whole different ball game. Much bigger risks.
at some point it becomes less about progress and more about being injury free and CONSISTENT (which can't happen without being injury free lol). it scares me that this margin becomes even less as you get older. i can imagine someone in their 70-80s being diligent and all it takes is some minor injury that takes you out for a week to begin a downward spiral.
I started with a strength programme called Greyskull LP which descends from the Starting Strength school of thought (although far superior IMO). I got some really good results with it. I'm naturally quite strong, so it took less than a year before I was doing things like 200kg deadlifts. I would watch other natties in the gym and, according to my own observations, I was usually the strongest guy in the room.
But the easy progression quickly stops. Once you get to lifting 2.5x your bodyweight off the floor, or dipping with 100kg attached to your waist, it starts to become really hard. I mean, yes, you've trained for it, but it's still incredibly taxing on the system and, let's be honest, not reflective of any real work anyone might carry out. Real work involves lots of toing and froing, not lifting one enormously heavy weight then going home.
I developed a really hard to change mindset that said if it's not heavy there's no point. I was still doing 3x5 reps of everything, often to failure, after years and years of lifting and never making any strength gains anyway. I eventually developed an elbow injury thanks to too many weighted chin ups. I prided myself on being able to chin up 3 plates when most people can't even do bodyweight. Well, now I can't do bodyweight either (not without pain at least).
I made the change after watching some of Scott Herman's more recent videos on Youtube. He's now 39 and still in excellent shape. Unlike most on Youtube, I believe he is natty too. He does high volume work which, naturally, will be nowhere your strength limit. I was still doing 3x5 reps, now I'm doing 3x8 with drop sets. Way more volume, way more variety of movements, way less weight. It's been so much better.
I'd still recommend a starting strength programme to beginners, but you really need to get off it after a year or so and decide whether you want to be a bodybuilder or strength athlete. And before you decide to be a strength athlete, look at seasoned strength athletes and decide if you want to look like them when you are their age, or not.
As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat. All you'll do is destroy your body. Lifting heavy just destroys it even more (see Ronnie Coleman).
Agreed. It also occurred to me while reading your comment that there are a lot of parallels to this in the auto enthusiast world- guys going deep into debt on a depreciating asset, sometimes overtly to look cool for women, when in reality all they end up with is a sausage-fest of guys rubbernecking and coming up to them in parking lots.
I got a good base of coaching in high school and later in life came back to lifting through Starting Strength. Recently I’ve gotten a lot out of Stronglifts 5x5 and a modest garage barbell setup to reach kind of a local maxima. I could keep going with it, and it would be nice to continue taking advantage of the simplicity of that program to stay in shape (or move to madcow, or something similar) but there’s no value to me in getting any bigger/stronger - I’d rather “diversify” a bit into other activities and avoid the injuries that come with heavy weights, but I would like to maintain what I’ve got.
I’m not sure if the answer is simply “just stop increasing weights” or if there’s something better I can do that would further reduce chance of injury, conserve energy for other activities, save time etc.
My experience is that it becomes equally fun for a data driven person to start tracking aerobic performance (rowing was where I started because we have a C2 at home, and then diversified into running and biking).
I'm guessing DB is dumbbell (and bar is barbell).
Those who do it tend to just refer to it as weightlifting (one word), but we sometimes say Oly weightlifting when talking to others to avoid confusion with the more general weight lifting/lifting weights, which encompasses powerlifting(another competitive sport consisting of bench press, squat and deadlift), weightlifting and general resistance training.
Weightlifting is more dynamic and requires a lot of skill to control the timing and momentum, whereas powerlifting is closer to a test of raw strength(not that it doesn't require some technique).
Oly is Olympic weightlifting, a set of weightlifting movements/lifts. In various workouts, like in dieting, some folks decide on a subset of all the things (movements, food) which is good (or bad) and focuses on them. Powerlifting is another opinion of a good set of movements which focuses on weightlifting abilities.
DB is indeed dumbbell, yes
C2 is apparently Concept2, a rowing machine
One thing I learned: When I was peak-ego my DL/SQ/BP was ~1300lbs. I remember actively thinking the people on the machines and especially the "Smith" machine were wasting time.
Then after awhile, I switched gyms and noticed the biggest/oldest guys were not olympic lifting, they were all on machines. I got to talking to them and they said the same thing, they weren't chasing power numbers, they wanted to stay safe and the machines allowed them to do that.
You can still get injured on a leg press machine, but it offers most of the advantages without the huge risk of 350lbs dropping on your neck.
Lifting should always be taken seriously and "your muscles misfiring" is not a legitimate excuse for a lapse in judgment and lifting more then you should.
Citing from Bigger, Leaner, Stronger by Michael Matthews, he points to a review of 20 studies performed by Bond University that found the average injury rates for the following activities:
1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours
2. Crossfit, Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting - 2-6 / 1000 hours
3. Long Distance Running - 10 / 1000 hours
4. Hi Impact Sports (Hockey, Football, Soccer, Rugby) - 6 - 260 / 1000 hours
I'm personally committed to progressively lifting heavy until I turn 40 at which point it becomes more difficult to add muscle. At that point, I'll look into transitioning into a sustainable program that will let me preserve as much muscle as possible as I age with minimal risk.
This seems about right? Let's say you powerlift 6 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. (This is believable after a year or so.) That's 300 hours. And you're picking up an injury every 170-500 hours. That seems... plausible?
What matters is how quickly and completely those injuries heal. If you tweak something, maybe you can just ice it, and maybe you're all healed up in two weeks, no problem.
But once you've been powerlifting seriously for a year, you're moving around real weight. Granted, you know you can handle the weight, you're moving it carefully, and you've got safety bars to catch anything you drop.
But some of the injuries you might pick up don't go away so easily. And over 40 years of heavy lifting, those numbers can add up.
> 1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours
This represents a 2-6 fold reduction in injury. And you'll be working slowly with lighter weight, so physics probably offers fewer chances for disaster.
So I'd guess that bodybuilding has a lower baseline injury rate, and possibly less severe injuries on average?
Get to squat 150kg is highly likely to cause back injuries for a vast majority of the people.
Whereas lifting 50% of max reps with higher reps will get you similar benefits, in most cases even more muscle growth, without the high risk of injuries.
I wouldn't recommend deadlifts. The worst part about it is that everyone always says "you didn't have proper form!" but, in that case, if you can follow all the advice in the program and still have bad form, it just sounds like a way to dismiss injuries as "your fault, not the program's".
So, "it's really that easy" actually causes pain that I also feel when I hold a cup of tea.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't start lifting weights, but no matter what you do, you can be (temporarily) disabled for any reason, which is precisely what the article is about.
I have a weight-machine and a few barbells in my house, and use them 2-3 times a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. I am older, I have no six-pack, I am not particularly muscular. It's not about that. It's about keeping what you have, and keeping what you have reasonably fit.
Muscles support your joints. Weight training also strengthens the ligaments and tendons that hold everything together. If you do it as "circuit training" (only a few seconds between different exercises), it also serves as cardiovascular exercise. All of this is important for everyone, especially as you get older...
Master motor control, balance and ability to control your own weight. The problem with lifting is no matter how good your form is, injuries are inevitable and made worse due to the extra resistance.
Other body weight exercises like push-ups are a great supplement though.
If there are no weights involved, I'd recommend people just do yoga instead, but leave hand stands out for a long time.
Now obviously I wouldn’t start out with hand stands since you need to be in pretty good shape (like a pull up you probably can’t do it unless you’re in decent shape anyways).
It’s certainly safer than having literally hundreds of pounds above your neck.
I spent a very long time training for hand stands (pressing up) , it is an advanced skill.
In Ashtanga yoga it is considered an advanced level which some yogis may never achieve.
Last year he slipped a disk putting gas in his car. Backs are really arbitrary and you can do a lot to finesse the dice, but you're still gonna roll snake eyes on something.
It's essentially: Day A: - Squat 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP
Day B: - Deadlift, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP
So you are only squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week, versus SS with squats everyday.
A typically schedule following M-W-F for two weeks could look like the following: M: Squat & Bench W: Deadlift & OHP F: Squat & Bench
M: Squat & OHP W: Deadlift & Bench F: Squat & OHP
I highly recommend purchasing 1.25 plates so that you can increase weights by 2.5 pounds versus 5. I did this for bench and OHP and that was when I really started seeing gains!
AMRAP stands for as many reps as possible and works as a good metric for moving up a weight or staying at a weight. If you do 5 at the end, you may want to stay. If you do 10 or more, you can double the weight increase.
The other cool part of AMRAP is that you now have another metric besides weight - you can try to break previous rep records, especially if you deload and are working your way back up to previous working weights.
At the end of the day, sticking with any LP would be good. I just like GSLP since I'm not squatting every day.
All that being said, I started off with SS and that was what got me to a 315 pound squat.
Doing GSLP is what got me to 220.5 bench and a 135 OHP (all for reps)! I think the tiny incremental plate (1.25 plates) and AMRAP sets are what helped me the most.
I say this as a guy who still works a Starting-Strength-based program. Power lifting is great--it changed my life. But it's NOT a solution to disability and it's NOT a foolproof prevention. The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
> The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
I don't know how you got that implication. It seems like you agree that lifting is great. Many people don't do resistance exercise. The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic. We all understand it's not a solution to all disability. But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Great! What's the problem? (While we're talking about implications, your comment does seem to imply you haven't read the linked article.)
Aging is relevant to the author's case of disability because they mention that they " tried something that, looking back now, maybe [they're] too old for". But a lot of disability has nothing to do with age.
I think the point of bringing up age is that a lot of able people are selfish and assume that disability is someone else's problem, when in fact, the vast majority of people will become disabled in their lifetimes.
Do you really not see how bringing up a way to prevent disability (which is at best, a small-percentage probablistic solution) sounds like an attempt to refute that point?
> But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Sure, and that would be a good thing. But you've gotta understand that in every conversation about disability, many people's only contribution to the conversation is to talk about how people could be less disabled, with almost no non-disabled people willing to engage with actually accommodating disability.
It's at best extremely condescending, as if people who are disabled aren't trying their best to not be disabled. There are exceptions, of course, but even in those cases, I tend toward more compassion because there's likely underlying mental illness going on there.
Fundamentally, there just isn't a massive societal problem with people not doing enough to not become disabled. The problem is we don't do enough to accommodate disability. Constantly bringing up ways we can avoid being disabled is insensitive and distracts from the real problems and real solutions.
At a more basic level: stop trying to present your solutions to a problem you don't have, and listen more to people who have the problem. This is particularly true if your "solution" is to arrogantly tell people how to not have the problem.
The point of this blog post is to elicit empathy, something often lacking in healthy people who cannot envision themselves suffering from some ailment. Eventually everybody's bodies and minds will fail. Whatever specific mitigation strategies you deploy will eventually become ineffectual and your capabilities will degrade, either by means of age or disease or accident or all three.
We can and should do more to make things better for people who have differing levels of physical and mental capabilities because it is the right thing to do, but if that isn't enough, we should also do it out of our own self interest.
I'd suggest that bringing out "just get strong with these easy steps" as a response to a person who suffered an injury is particularly missing the point.
Squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench press, chinups, eat, sleep. It really is that easy.
Highly recommend it for anyone interested.
1. Any back pain I had disappeared completely.
2. When I have to lift something awkward (eg, furniture), I don't injure myself. If you can deadlift 200KG, awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.
3. It is really really handy being able to move heavy things.
4. Basically everything else improves. Going for a tough hike uphill? Your legs will be a lot less sore if you can squat 150KG. Need to hold your screaming baby for 40 minutes? Easy!