News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by solardev on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:15PM (#34043520)
Not the OP, but I have to disagree too. Creative Cloud, IntelliJ, Figma, Google Workspace, Postman, Spotify, Vercel, Adguard, Google storage space, Alltrails, 1password.. They're all subscriptions and getting better all the time. Meanwhile it's the old purchased software like Windows and Office that get worse with every version.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by phrom on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:22PM (#34043602)
Funny you mention Windows and Office. Office is getting worse while moving to a subscription model, while Windows is getting worse by moving towards ads.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by paultopia on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:02PM (#34048316)
Although TBF office and windows have gotten worse with every version at least since the 1990s.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by vel0city on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:16AM (#34048768)
Yeah Excel 3.0 had much better cloud multi-user editing support. It really only went downhill after Excel 5.0 came out with this whole VBA nonsense in '93. Unnecessary bloat, really just showcasing the fact Microst doesn't know what it's users actually want.

Excel today is way better than the Excel I used in the 90s. I wouldn't trade it for a moment.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by andylynch on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:14AM (#34050459)
They ruined office with … removing Excel’s 64k row limit, better file format, collaborative editing and better data analysis functions?
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by paultopia on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:52AM (#34052708)
If you're using a tool like excel to work with data with more than 64,000 rows or analyze data, or if you're collaboratively editing a dataset in a non-version-controlled format... best of luck to you, I'll send flowers to your widow.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by andylynch on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @07:12AM (#34064822)
It’s great for what it does. You might be surprised at how your bank and accountant get stuff done.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by phendrenad2 on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:12AM (#34049704)
That hasn't been my experience. Windows 11 has more features any any version before it, and same goes for Office.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by janlaureys on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:26AM (#34049781)
More features is not a great indicator of quality.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by hypertele-Xii on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:00AM (#34050749)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Wi...

Support for Android apps sounds nice, but you can't even reposition the taskbar anymore.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by phendrenad2 on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:50AM (#34051054)
I'll gladly sacrifice the second list for the first list.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Ylpertnodi on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:54AM (#34051479)
Funny, I wasn't thinking the same when I installed the Old Classic Calc[ulator].

https://winaero.com/classic-calculator-windows-10-creators/

How can you f* up a simple calculator on a very complex one?

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jonwest on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:27PM (#34043666)
Do you feel as though Windows as a SaaS would be better? At least as a consumer I have a choice to say “I’d rather not upgrade to Windows 11 and get the worse experience” and not just login and see that those changes that I wouldn’t have upgraded for have just been pushed down as it happens with a SaaS.

Windows, as an example, is an interesting one in that you’re paying once for a license and it’s good more or less indefinitely (or until things stop working and are no longer supported), but Microsoft does still have an obligation to be pushing out updates, whether security or QoL, so I’m not sure that it being worse over time has any reflection on the license model.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by TingPing on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:02PM (#34044052)
You don't have a choice not to upgrade Windows, not practically, it will go out of support and you can't do anything about it other than hope Windows Next will be more to your liking.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by phrom on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:33PM (#34044556)
True, because of how necessary OS updates / security fixes are, sooner or later you're forced to upgrade, even on a "buy once" model. But in that model, at least there was still a chance of an effective user boycott.

When Windows Vista and Windows 8 released, people got mad, and enough of them stuck to Windows XP and Windows 7 that Microsoft had to address it, for example by going back on the Windows 8 start menu. Now that they're switching to this permanent license, free upgrade, model, that is going away. Thankfully Windows 11 is very boring, but if they pulled off another 8 start menu, there'll be no real way for people to avoid it or have their voice heard now.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by winternett on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:03PM (#34048328)
The key is to also keep your old hardware conveniently offline until they drop pushing forced updates to it... It works surprisingly well when no patches are applied, and documentation is usually quite thorough.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by krater23 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:27PM (#34044432)
Hello from the past. I'm typing this on a Windows 7, without the most of the updates. Most works fine, just can't install the newest Office or Games. But who wants that?

p.s.: Nope, no viruses or things like that. Windows 7 is so old that it's not supported by botnets anymore.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by SteveNuts on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:52PM (#34044945)
This is like bragging about not wearing a seatbelt because "I haven't flown through the windshield yet"
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by thot_experiment on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:42PM (#34047157)
I've flown through the windshield a couple times in my life WRT malware.

I've lost so much more time to work computers where I'm forced to use retail Win 10/11 and have to deal with intrusive update policies than I have due to malware.

Having to nuke a few computers from orbit once a decade is a small price to pay for having systems that I can trust to work the same as they did yesterday, systems that never interrupt my flow.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pigsty on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:48AM (#34049912)
Or it’s like driving a reliable Toyota with a proven safety record vs not wanting to pay for some new vehicle with a seatbelt subscription and updates that brick your car randomly or blare ads at max volume while driving down the interstate.

I’ve lost more work to forced updates resetting my computer randomly and making operation less stable than I ever have to malware (the latter being never in my adult life).

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by themacguffinman on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:45PM (#34044800)
It may not be advisable, but tell that to the XP-for-life or 7-for-life people. It won't actually stop working, it just means you're much more vulnerable to malware.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Silhouette on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:33PM (#34045640)
It won't actually stop working, it just means you're much more vulnerable to malware.

The biggest threats haven't come from direct external assaults on the OS for years. I expect a typical consumer device is more at risk from an out of date browser than any other type of vulnerability now. The biggest risk for most of us as personal users is someone stealing our data via a hack, which often doesn't require root/administrator access to the host system anyway if you can compromise something already Internet-connected like a browser or messaging app.

Of course old versions of Windows not getting updates from Microsoft any more is a concern on some level but it's probably a long way down the list for anyone who actually has a good reason to still be using the old versions. I know quite a few people with quite a few different and entirely rational reasons for doing so, though many of those reasons involve some other form of predatory business model by some other big company that makes hardware and/or software. (Hardware that was declared EOL and doesn't have drivers for newer Windows versions, software with some sort of DRM that ties it to running on a specific system, that kind of thing.)

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by i_am_proteus on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:48PM (#34045884)
It has been several years since WannaCry, but absolutely nothing guarantees that another such vulnerability does not surface.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Silhouette on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:27PM (#34046399)
Ransomware, like the old data trashing viruses of the past, is trivially defeated by having backups.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by i_am_proteus on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:42PM (#34046550)
Read up on the mechanism by which WannaCry spread and report back.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Silhouette on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:55PM (#34047278)
You mean EternalBlue? How exactly is a remote attacker going to use a vulnerability in a local networking protocol to attack a typical home user's PC? First you need a way into their network where you can even see the PC to attack. If you have that then you're already dangerous.

As I said before this kind of vulnerability is still a concern. Obviously it's a much greater concern if you're talking about something like a laptop that might be connected to an untrusted network, which would be crazy with an unsupported or unpatched OS. But for a home user who stays on their own network it's probably quite a long way down the list of things to be worried about.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by 7speter on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:43PM (#34047169)
We also dont know if some bad actor has already found that vulnerability and are building/already built and exploit.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by themacguffinman on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:01PM (#34046064)
Browsers and messaging apps also rely on OS security to a degree, it's part of why they don't support old operating system versions.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by bruce511 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:32PM (#34048091)
Your hardware point is interesting in the sense that it represents the non-saas model, but also appears to not be working.

So I get it, they bought the hardware with a one-time purchase. The maker moved on. One day the OS moves on.

But the hardware company is predatory for not writing a (free?) driver for their obsolete hardware on a new OS?

Surely if the model is "buy once" then there's no expectation to return to the well for "software updates"?

The solution is, as you noted, to freeze the OS. Which is perfectly fine, as long as you are happy doing that.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Silhouette on Monday December 19, 2022 @08:49AM (#34051967)
But the hardware company is predatory for not writing a (free?) driver for their obsolete hardware on a new OS?

The rest of the world deals with this problem by adopting standards. There are plenty of peripheral makers in the PC world who could perfectly well have followed or established standards too and then their equipment might be useful indefinitely through generic, long-lived drivers. In reality many of them chose to use proprietary protocols with no public documentation available instead. Building in artificial obsolescence is certainly a predatory business model.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by winternett on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:07PM (#34048348)
Eventually after an OS passes it EOL... Even security threats decrease as the OS falls out of popular use. I ran a totally offline NT server for many years after EOL and it was glorious, CD-ROM and all.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by i_am_toaster on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:24AM (#34052353)
Tell that to my graphics card. Had to update to 10 from 7 about 1-2 years ago because my graphics card started making very scary loud sounds when playing games.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by everyone on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:57PM (#34045046)
Windows 10 LTSB will be supported for about 10 years from now. (with 0 feature changes)
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by thot_experiment on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:58PM (#34047310)
A cracked version of W10LTSB with most of the cruft stripped out and updates/AV disabled is genuinely the best base computing experience. My WWAN card even works properly. Linux is happy inside a VM, and the host computer works properly without spending a billion hours recompiling drivers with every kind of weird lab hardware, GPUs, FPGAs, and it's own internals etc. If something is better supported on Linux I just pipe it into the VM.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by everyone on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#34055465)
Why not update it though? They promise 0 feature changes. Only security updates and bugfixes.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by iggldiggl on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:52AM (#34051459)
Although one possible problem could be if your hardware breaks down in five years and you want to take that as an opportunity to upgrade instead of doing a simple like-for-like replacement – drivers for then current hardware might not necessarily support old LTSB versions.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by everyone on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:14PM (#34055451)
Well I think windows 11 has same kernal as 10? So probably drivers will be fine for a good few years also.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by iggldiggl on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @05:22AM (#34063967)
I think that's mainly backwards compatibility from the OS with regards to existing drivers, but Windows might still introduce some new APIs that hardware vendors might make use of, thereby rendering new drivers incompatible with older OSs.

Likewise, new CPU and/or chipset generations might require not just new drivers, but dedicated OS support, which in all likelihood won't be backported to the LTSB versions, either.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by stanleydrew on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:02PM (#34045128)
Wait doesn't this just make the point that SaaS is the proper model for Windows? Do you expect that Microsoft should "support" everything, for free, forever? If you want bugs to be fixed, or for things to improve generally, then you should pay something I think.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Spooky23 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:25PM (#34045500)
In enterprise, Windows and Office are subscriptions in most cases. I wouldn’t say they have gotten better.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by usrusr on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:40PM (#34047665)
I'm convinced that it would be better: the reason for worse every version is that they try to cram every major full of "revolutionary new features" nobody asked for. Because back in the day updates were a major revenue stream but only with headline features. I'd gladly pay for a 64 bit w2k
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by tttttt5ts on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:33PM (#34043719)
And your work pays for a lot of that? Must be nice.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by solardev on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:01PM (#34044040)
No, they pay for a couple, but I pay for most of it. IntelliJ in particular I pay for one because it's affordable enough and two because the corporate price is much much higher than than the individual price and I'm tired of begging companies to buy it, especially when other web devs are happy enough with VSCode.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by JadeNB on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:30PM (#34043688)
> Creative Cloud … all subscriptions and getting better all the time.

I may be an atypical user—I'm definitely sub-power user in this domain—but everything Adobe has got worse for me since moving to "Creative Cloud".

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by arcturus17 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:57PM (#34044003)
Opposite. I'm an infra-power user that uses AI once every two months, and I like the experience. Can't tell how it is for power users though. Maybe they hate it.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by JadeNB on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:31PM (#34048512)
> Opposite. I'm an infra-power user that uses AI once every two months, and I like the experience. Can't tell how it is for power users though. Maybe they hate it.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to claim that everyone had a negative experience, just that it was far from a one-sided thing where these apps could be said unambiguously to improve. ("In summary, Adobe Creative Cloud is a land of contrasts.")

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by MiddleEndian on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:58AM (#34048983)
I use Creative Cloud as well, but I've found with auto-update you get random unexpected bugs. I disable it, I kill their background processes if I notice them, and occasionally I'll let it update things if I know a new version has something I want.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by dontknowwhyihn on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:25PM (#34044390)
We’ll see how well Figma holds up under Adobe, but at this point, I am not optimistic.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Diapason on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:53PM (#34044971)
Spotify? What the heck is it doing in this list. When you pay Spotify - you are paying - supposedly for a large part - for Artists's right, not for a Software service.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by solardev on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:02PM (#34047352)
Spotify is way better than similar offerings though, like Amazon or YouTube or Apple and such. Part of that is because their app makes social playlists easy. Everything from Christmas music to board game nights has a good community driven playlist.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by exodust on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:45PM (#34048598)
But we can't even "bookmark" or save a position in a playlist. No way to place a pin in a playlist, go listen to something else, then come back to that playlist position. Major let down of Spotify playlists.

Also the mandatory syncing across devices is annoying. I sometimes listen on my PC, and don't want my phone to lose it's place where I paused it previously.

Also finding playlists by "humans" not algorithms seems deliberately blurred. Spotify wants to push certain content, so they've designed their service to make it unclear or unintuitive if you want to find playlists curated by people only.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by lozenge on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:54PM (#34044986)
I haven't seen any improvement in Spotify in years.

Still can't organise songs in any meaningful way, can't rate songs, playlists suck, shuffle is broken, and they keep pushing podcast content when I never listen to podcasts.

1Password also used to sync to Dropbox for free and even had an HTML version that could serve from Dropbox.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by lunarplague on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:42PM (#34045789)
I don't understand how come you get podcast content pushed to you, and I have to actively search for podcast content and can't find anything outside of the bubbles I listen to without going to external sources.

Also, arguably, shuffle is not broken, it is working as intended, as there is an intended method to shuffle the songs according to popularity, right? Unless they changed that.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pdntspa on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:50PM (#34045910)
> shuffle the songs according to highest streaming royalty for Spotify

FTFY

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by winternett on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:57PM (#34048287)
It also happens with my music player when playing my own library of music, it has actually gotten that bad that even random no longer works as it should.

This is why I kept all of my old CDs, Mp3s, and DVDs... One day we're going to have to boycott everything and it will be painful for those who only had subscriptions on entertainment & productivity apps.

I'll load up windows 98 if I have to! I'll do it again!

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by seanp2k2 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:26PM (#34048482)
If, by painful, you mean “the need to plug in that old HDD with 100k MP3s”, keep up ratio on private trackers, and end up finding tons of amazing music again, all completely free to do anything I want with, then sure :)

Squeezebox Server was awesome, and these days it’s way easier and more accessible to host a media server and playback in ways you want.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Al-Khwarizmi on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:37AM (#34050193)
The pain, for me at least, was in organizing all that music. I ended up with a mess of files and folders, people didn't use ID3 tags consistently (if at all) and if you need to add them yourself manually then yeah, it's a pain...
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by webworker on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:45PM (#34059522)
I have been saying this for years. I have a HUGE amount of CDs that I have gotten at bargain prices from thrift stores over the years (it’s been an interesting curation method), and I keep them all organized on a plex server. It’s as close to best of both worlds as you can get today imo.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Aeolun on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:48PM (#34045885)
I mean, you only have to open the main Spotify page. I also get podcast content pushed to me (half the main page/search results are always podcasts) and I've never even listened to one.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by lunarplague on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:59PM (#34056839)
Again, my main spotify page ask me to continue listening to the podcast I already listen to, plus random daily playlist for music(which I actually really like a lot of the time). I don't get new content showed to be all too often, maybe a new artist a week?
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by least on Sunday December 18, 2022 @05:58PM (#34045082)
Spotify still hasn't reached feature parity with Spotify when it first came out. Only recently did something as basic as lyrics return. It's still not extensible like it once was.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by class4behavior on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:33PM (#34046459)
There were no lyrics all this time? Either it's really hard to get people to pay attention to alternatives like Deezer and Tidal or there is little demand for lyrics.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by least on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:00PM (#34047837)
Spotify's killer feature at this point is probably that they have an ad-supported tier while none of the other services (that I'm aware of) do... unless you count youtube?

I think lyrics was a bit of legal hurdle so Spotify had to get rid of it. I imagine they brought it back recently as they worked out a legal way to provide them again.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by class4behavior on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:06PM (#34048340)
Nonsense. Most of them do. Deezer even offered a bigger music archive in the beginning. Tidal started as sub only but added a US only free tier, instead it pays its artist much better.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by least on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:53AM (#34048957)
Apologies, then, my knowledge of the state of music services is apparently quite outdated. Has Deezer always offered a free tier? They're not really on my radar.

In either case, I do think some of the points the other comment made are prescient. Spotify Connect is definitely a killer feature and I think Spotify Wrapped is one of those cultural phenomenon that you can't reliably predict the impact of. Network effects definitely seem to be quite powerful.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by vladvasiliu on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:02AM (#34048700)
To me, Spotify's killer feature is Spotify connect and official Linux support.

I keep looking at Deezer for its cheap hi-def support (the premium plan now has FLAC, for the same price as Spotify). But integrations with non-officially sanctioned devices seem janky, at best.

Maybe things have improved, but at one point I had a Yamaha receiver, officially supported, which basically replicated the Deezer interface inside the receiver's app. I couldn't control it from my computer. IIRC Tidal was the same. With Spotify, this just works. Bonus points for supporting the use case of "having friends over who can play their music on my stereo".

I also use multiple "devices" to play music: phone, personal laptop, work laptop, personal desktops, media PC. I don't know how Deezer's "three registered device limit" is implemented, but I'd hate to have to log in again every time I change the computer.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by least on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:49AM (#34048935)
You're right, I do think Spotify connect is an absolutely killer feature that I'm surprised it hasn't been replicated by other companies. I'm a fairly happy Apple Music user but that's definitely one of the things I miss about using Spotify. It's truly bizarre for Apple who has fairly good integrations and Music continuity just makes sense.

Spotify Wrapped is also kind of a cultural phenomenon. People enjoy sharing and talking about it and I guess it's the default assumption that you're using Spotify so you can easily share playlists and stuff to other users. Spotify has the network that smaller services don't.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by dmitriid on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:03AM (#34049335)
> Only recently did something as basic as lyrics return.

Unfortunately, something as basic as lyrics is rife with legal challenges, and you can't just slap it onto an app.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by locusofself on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:13AM (#34049058)
All I want from Spotify is for it to be performant. I hate that it's such a slow and bloated app.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by eurasiantiger on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:58AM (#34049313)
Shuffle is not broken. It is algorithmic and tries to feed you songs you might want to listen to but Spotify doesn’t need to pay for (that much).
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by 314 on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:26AM (#34050518)
Shuffle is very broken as it does nit perform a shuffle. Instead it performs random selection with replacement. It is much worse but the devs do not care and insist their way is "right".
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by esskay on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:15AM (#34051201)
The several community issues with hundreds of thousands of votes would disagree.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by agret on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:46AM (#34049903)
I use Spotify in my car over Bluetooth and for the past couple months it has this super annoying bug where you get in, start it playing and it finishes off what song you were listening to but then doesn't continue playing the playlist, it just goes silent and when you open the main app screen there is no playlist in sight. Have to manually re-open a playlist and pick a track to keep it going.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by esskay on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:14AM (#34051197)
Spotify feels like it's got 1 developer working on it in their spare time. Their feature release timeline is awful and has been for years.

I think what makes it worse is that they've got a section of their community site where you can 'vote' for features and bugs to be fixed - why on earth you need a voting system for bugs is beyond me. But overall its pointless, theres feature requests going back nearly a decade with thousands of votes and all they keep saying is "keep voting". How about no, how about you actually update your damn platform.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by falcolas on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:13PM (#34045297)
1password - the non-SAAS version - works a charm on my phone. I haven't needed an update. And aside from compiling for newer phone versions, I haven't noticed an update.

Except on the desktop which was updated to be crippled (can't edit items) and it advertises for the SAAS version with every other click. Which, fuck them. Their move to SAAS has done nothing but corrupt what was a good software company.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by FpUser on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:15PM (#34045337)
Out of the products you listed I use 2:

IntelliJ - JetBrains actually offers perpetual model along with subscription. That is the reason I use their product.

Postman - I use free version to play with the APIs. It costs me nothing and if it disappears tomorrow my development is not going to get disrupted at all as for anything serious I just use plain old scripts that are free.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:49PM (#34045893)
Lastpass didn't deliver a single improvement, but they did double the yearly price
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by moonchrome on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:31PM (#34047050)
Switch to 1password or something else ? That's the nice part about subscription - when it's about to expire it's easy to switch. Just make absolutely sure you remove payment info from that scammer site - they charged me for a year after I canceled and supposedly "refunded me" when I went to support forums- but never actually saw money refund. Couldn't be bothered to go further but just the fact that they will charge post cancelation is extremely scummy.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:47PM (#34047199)
I already did as of last week. Waited 3 years, the software is all riddled with bugs and nothing got fixed. Insane
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by chillfox on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:12PM (#34048385)
How do you figure moving hundreds of passwords + shared passwords (requires other people to also move) from one solution to another is easy.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by agret on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:47AM (#34049909)
Shared passwords is a hard one, they've got you by the gonads there. I moved to Bitwarden and all I did was export my password database as a csv then import it into Bitwarden and it all came across with no issues.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Rastonbury on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:01AM (#34049993)
That's a slight strawman, the same thing applies to owned software. If I own non-subscription software and want to migrate to something newer/better, it won't be easy either. It may be even harder if either or both does not come with support.

Companies ruining their product lines is not really a good argument against subscriptions unless the company has monopoly like power and customers have no choice but to stick with inferior (these exist). If it's a sticky product, it would've been sticky either way owned or subscribed. Password managers are commodities even if it takes effort to move.

Main problem here is bosses want to go with incumbent big dog or has a relationship with sales, sticking the company to products that are subpar or going downhill. If anything subscriptions make it so that there are competitors chasing those dollars while being willing to help you migrate

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:45PM (#34055022)
I was mostly concerned about attachments. The export to CSV worked surprisingly well, even though the CSV doesn't seem to match the spec.

To be fair, I sampled some passwords, not all of them.

For attachments, it took me almost a day, I found an official command line tool called lpass and modified the existing script to do what I needed, then I had to manually re-attach every attachment to the right passwords. A giant pain overall.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by esskay on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:16AM (#34051204)
Whilst also getting hacked twice. Why anyone uses, let alone pays for Lastpass is a mystery.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:42PM (#34054983)
Their data export is really bad, that was my major concern. I'll pay them for another year, since password history is not going to be exported.

Apparently there is a PR to export password history on their lpass tool, but it was never merged.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by Kuinox on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:51PM (#34045928)
Spotify have sound disapearing for licensing reason. I guess that improvement ?
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by ambicapter on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:52PM (#34045938)
You don’t think that’s because companies pour more resources into the subscription model software that is making them more money?
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pishpash on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:37PM (#34046505)
But you don't have to upgrade your old purchased software. If your purchased Office worked for you, keep using it. How would it get worse for you?
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by coldtea on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:11PM (#34047448)
You've mixed subscription based services (Google storage space) and content (Spotify) with subscription based software.

For services, it might make sense. Even so, what exactly is "getting better all the time" about Spotify the software? It's been the same for like 5 years now.

As for the rest: 1Password declined (turned to Electron shit), Creative Cloud keeps adding bloat while not adressing decades standing issues, IntelliJ is, I guess OK, Figma I don't use so can't tell.

And I know (even use) many more software that turned into subscriptions and now sit on their asses or deliver minimum value - and of course will stop working the moment you had enough with their lack of progress end your subscription.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by thecoppinger on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:16PM (#34047960)
Claiming 1Password has declined is unfair at best. They release a steady stream of updates, and when I discovered a UX issue earlier this year their team were on it like a rash.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by vonseel on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:22AM (#34048799)
Yea I don't understand all the recent hate over their new version. I installed the new version on my devices, and while the keyboard shortcuts seemed to change, once I looked them up it worked better than before. I just use the cmd+ shift+space shortcut for everything now.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by dmitriid on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:59AM (#34049317)
There are many, many, many issues raised on their support forum with regards to their new version. All of them are ignored.

The most glaring one: search. Which is verifiably worse UX now.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pasc1878 on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:35AM (#34049486)
Also the change to force you to store passwords in the cloud. You used to be able to have a vault and keep it on your machines only. I can't see how any company could allow this software storing company passwords on their machines.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by robin_reala on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:50AM (#34049929)
The weirdest thing is that they don’t have a Mac App Store version from v8. Most they’ve done is put up this page: https://1password.com/mac-app-store-subscribe/
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by cnity on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#34050294)
I sort of like 1password, but I have to admit that on my personal macbook which is from mid 2015, if I am running anything moderately intensive (like a video game) then 1password drops about 20% of my keypresses when entering the master password if I enter it at my full typing speed. This is a huge pain because my password is long and I'm forced to type it slowly to avoid the drops.

Other text entry fields don't seem to suffer from this problem. AFAIK this wasn't a problem before the switch to Electron.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by dividedbyzero on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:42AM (#34050626)
> I just use the cmd+ shift+space shortcut for everything now.

Whoa, I didn't know that one. Was that functionality around in earlier version?

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by techdragon on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:22PM (#34048007)
IntelliJ has arguably one of the best subscription models for tools. It works offline and they have fallback licenses so if they doubled the price and I cancel I’m still legally entitled to a recent version that I’ll probably be happy enough with until I find the motivation to replace it with something else.

If Adobe worked like that I’d be like 75% pissed off at their products and pricing.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by janlaureys on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:25AM (#34049774)
Sketch also used this model for a long time. You pay for a year of updates, and you can keep the last version you got forever.

Recently they started to add more cloud/collaboration services/a web app and switched to a regular old subscription model, but you can bet your ass i'm staying on the legacy model for as long as I can.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by cy_hauser on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:00AM (#34053573)
arguably... then I'll argue the opposite (even as a subscriber). Jetbrains rolls your subscription back to the version on the day you purchased, not the last version in your subscription. If you purchase and immediately find a bug, you know you're rolling back to that bug unless you pay a renewal next year. Same goes for any fixes you got during that entire year. Poof, gone.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by knighthack on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:24PM (#34060764)
I've been subscribed to IntelliJ close to 8 years now.

The one reason why I tolerate IntelliJ's subscription/pricing model is that unlike Adobe, they actually do deliver constant and worthwhile updates. Their software also rarely crashes, and their universal workflow (across different languages, themes, key bindings, plugins) also works as promised.

If not for the above the subscription would be a very hard sell for me.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jacobsimon on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:41PM (#34048575)
Spotify doesn’t need to “get better” - you’re paying the fee for streaming rights to an ever-growing content library. Same with Netflix, etc.

There’s also an unspoken but important accounting detail here - if you run an online software business and offer a one-time, lifetime purchase for your product, you are now contractually on the hook to provide that service to customers forever, even if your business stops growing, which means that the liabilities of your business are not capped. This is bad if you operate with a lot of cloud expenses, and it means that these businesses are unsustainable unless new customers keep coming in, whereas a subscription model scales with utilization.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by nullcaution on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:07AM (#34049352)
Not really, support for software, especially games are discontinued publicly all the time.

The real rule is not pissing off your customer base by taking important services offline while they still use that particular product. Doing so would be a PR blunder, and obviously effect sales of future products.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jacobsimon on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:38PM (#34086087)
Sorry I think you misunderstood my point - if you want to continue providing a service to customers that runs online, then a one-time payment doesn’t work as a business model. The fact that they have to shut down game servers is a testament to that problem. At some point the costs exceed the revenue and it becomes unprofitable to honor the lifetime purchase.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by diffeomorphism on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:41AM (#34049527)
No. If that were true I could simply use spotify or netflix with any software of my choice.

You are paying for both the content and the software bundled together. And no, you don't get it "for free".

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by colonwqbang on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:02AM (#34049995)
But you can, in the case of spotify: https://github.com/librespot-org/librespot
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by coldtea on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:35PM (#34055745)
>for streaming rights to an ever-growing content library

Ever-growing my ass. I've had lots of songs on my playlists removed because they were taken off the platform. And not some obscure acts, for example Westbam's Götterstrasse (which features anybody, from Brian Molko and Iggy Pop to Kanye and Lil' Wayne).

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jacobsimon on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:43PM (#34086142)
Spotify added over 20M new tracks to its library last year.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by rb666 on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:31AM (#34050155)
Strongly disagree regarding 1Password, their client is continually improving and it is IMHO by far the best password managing service now, I have tried most of the other ones before it. Really have no issues with their Electron switch, I didn't even notice it, still fast!
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pasc1878 on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:25AM (#34050901)
Which OS are you on? I am on macOS and it is worse.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by esskay on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:12AM (#34051182)
macOS here and its better.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by dividedbyzero on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:28AM (#34050918)
Same with me for Electron, I wouldn't know but for the HN comments. They added an SSH agent to their macOS clients a while ago, at least for me that was a pretty big improvement. They also added features for sharing passwords with others who aren't in your 1Password Team/Family/whatever, and that's really slick and useful too. I'm a bit disappointed in their 1password secrets automation thingy since there seems to be no free tier to play with it, but it's good to see them grow into that direction since that may alleviate the pressure to profit squeeze their password manager offering to death.

But I guess you have to keep in mind they are in an ongoing pivot to cloud and that understandably disgruntles those of their customers who have a strong aversion to cloudy products. If you look at 1Password as a standalone app for managing local vaults synced via dropbox, I guess you could argue it's kinda shitty by now and getting worse, and every cloud feature is a net-negative in that view. If I had to guess I'd say most people want a cloud solution these days, but I guess that may be what's behind a lot of the negative sentiment. Or maybe not, but as someone who buys 1Password Family for the cloudy features, has used it a lot at work and doesn't have a single local vault, I'm a very happy customer and I've yet to run into a non-trivial bug with v8.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by smrtinsert on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:32PM (#34047608)
I only pay for intellij which I consider to be essential. The rest are replaceable with compromise or not worth it to me.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by tored on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:00PM (#34048296)
Spotify, IntelliJ (Phpstorm), Postman is definitely getting worse.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jasonlotito on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:44PM (#34048594)
IntelliJ you buy and you keep what you buy. That's it. You can pay each year to buy the "latest" version, with a price decrease every year until the 3rd year.

You can use the version you buy forever.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by tored on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:47AM (#34049906)
IntelliJ is still getting worse regardless of their subscription plan (and it is getting more expensive).

I think it took the wrong turn around a year ago at the same they changed the splash screen (that is why I remember it), after that the updates have been worse.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jasonlotito on Friday December 23, 2022 @12:34PM (#34108445)
So you can just stop paying and use the version you like forever.

Done. Everything else is meaningless.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by CGamesPlay on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:02AM (#34048997)
1Password is objectively getting worse: 1Password 7 has 4.3 stars on the App Store and 1Password 8 has a measly 2.7 stars. 1Password 7 is no longer receiving updates (it's no longer for sale either). 1Password 8 requires iOS 15, so the updates that you're paying for as part of your subscription model require that you pay for a new phone to get them.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/1password-7-password-manager/i... and https://apps.apple.com/us/app/1password-8-password-manager/i...

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by jevgeni on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:17AM (#34049730)
Counting pitchforks doesn't make the pitchforks objective.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by MichaelZuo on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:15PM (#34054629)
Requiring iOS 15 or later is objectively worse though when the previous version supports older software.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by citruspi on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @07:31AM (#34064963)
> 1Password 8 requires iOS 15, so the updates that you're paying for as part of your subscription model require that you pay for a new phone to get them.

That assumes that iOS 15 requires a new phone... which isn't the case. Apple generally has an excellent track record of supporting older devices when they release new major OS versions.

Taking a look at the devices that support iOS 15[0], the oldest one appears to be the iPhone 6S... which was released in 2015. So you could theoretically use the new 1Password 8 on iOS 15 on a phone that is 7 years old. No need to pay for a new phone.

[0] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/supported-models-iphe...

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by pigsty on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:45AM (#34049899)
Office is so bad that it’s unbearable. Photoshop became subscription-only and now I’m stuck with spyware that auto-launches and runs in the background in over 2 dozen separate processes and more bugs and glitches than I ever had on paid versions before.

Meanwhile, Sublime Text and Procreate hold up and I’m not paying monthly.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by antifanboy on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:05AM (#34050014)
You’re kidding abiut 1password right? It has significantly gone downhill since they sold out its hsers and went subscription. I have a shell alias to kill off al of 1password’s processes and use it 2-4x per day. Thrree or four times a week I have to clear my sessions and close safari to get 1password yo work, which means lost productivity.

Im also quite worried about privacy with their shit tastic hosted vaults and still use my own local Copies.

1password is always my first example of what goes wrong for the user when companies decide they should subscribe for $50/year to a product they once bought for $40.

Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by deliriumchn on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:47AM (#34050660)
time to migrate to self hosted bitwarden...
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by hbossy on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:02AM (#34050371)
Spotify did get worse. It used to have build-in Genius lyrics / trivia display for currently playing song. This feature and recommendation system actually convicted me to pay for it over using youtube as main music player. It is no longer available.
Re:Ask HN: Anyone tired of everything being a subscription now? by mns on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:42AM (#34051373)
I think IntelliJ is getting worse, but at least you have a perpetual fallback license, which I might use at one point, as they are augmenting my code so much with everything, that if I open some source files in a plain text editor, they look completely different. I find this extremely annoying, because I don't want the IDE to change my view of the code so much that it starts interfering with it.

Spotify is more of a content provider, but even there, a few year ago I found it to be one of the best software out there and their Spotify connect was just magic. Not hey seem to be everywhere: soundbars, watches, the apps are a bloated mess that I need to restart Spotify desktop in order to update the like of a song that I liked on my phone. But this is the natural lifecycle of software products, something starts off as a great product coming to replace some sort of legacy monster, only to end up becoming the monster that they replaced.