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Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by motohagiography on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @10:14PM (#33890236)
The lack of a replacable battery is infuriating because it's planned obselescence of a FLIR device. I got one of the first CAT s60 phones when they came out and tolerated all the android spyware on it because I really liked having a properly ruggedized phone. Got about 4 years out of it.

The flir camera I would say I used most often at night for finding my dogs poop to pick up on neighbours lawns in the dark, but I used it on boats to find moisture, motorcycle engine seals to find gasket problems, found contractor fraud where they didn't bother putting insulation behind drywall, and places around windows for caulking to reduce heat loss, heat on horses legs that indicated inflammation, lack of current on wires in my basement. Mostly novelty, but handy.

The battery became too flaky to use as a regular phone, so I keep it in my toolbox and use it as a stud finder behind drywall and used to find where animals were getting into the attic of the house. Next test is for rim leaks on car tires. It has been a small time saver, and a fun conversation piece. But yeah, military thermal imaging to find dog poop at night was most common use case.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by matthewaveryusa on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:28PM (#33890626)
I have a flir as well and I've used it a lot while insulating my house, but the coolest thing I've done was find the exact location of a wasp nest between my walls and annihilating it by injecting a pesticide directly in the middle of the nest with a tiny drill hole. It seems gimmicky at first but it's been a real money-saver.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jstrong on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:08AM (#33891181)
I love stories about smiting wasps
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hnbad on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:22AM (#33891260)
Fun fact: in most of Germany this would have been a crime with a penalty of up to tens of thousands in EUR depending on the exact species.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:51AM (#33892508)
Wasps have such a bad reputation. We have had nests of yellow jackets (vespula germanica), paper wasps (polistes dominula), and hornets (vespa crabro) directly on our terrace, and I have been stung once in ten years and that was my fault.

There once was a nest of vespula germanica above the window of my study, a rather big nest that grew to a size of about 3000 or 4000 animals. The only thing I did about it was to close a hole in the wall, because a few of them kept coming inside. I sometimes went outside to watch the traffic at the entrance of the nest.

More fun facts: wasps eat mosquitos. Lots of them! And they pollinate plants. Adult wasps are vegetarians, when they hunt or steal a piece of your steak (I have seen that happen!), then they collect food for their larvae.

If you really want to get rid of wasps, use an essential oil (peppermint, lemon grass). Wasps communicate using pheromones and do not tolerate strong odor. Do not spray the nest, spray the area around the nest. You do not have to kill them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:22AM (#33892726)
Just reading this makes me sweat. Aren't hornets - and wasps, to a lesser degree - extremely territorial? How do you deal with one when it find its way inside you house? Not to mention, aren't hornets and wasps natural enemies? I imagine you didn't have the two set their nests near your terrace simultaneously?

I can intellectually process all the facts you wrote, but in my dealing with wasps and hornets, I find it hard to see them as anything than fast-moving balls of pain, always ready to strike at you out of nowhere, when you least expect them. Also, as a relatively fresh parent, as a threat to my children. I tend to prefer dealing with them by installing mosquito nets in all windows, but if a hornet gets in and doesn't politely leave, it's makeshift flamethrower time.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:58AM (#33892958)
Yes, wasps are territorial, but this just means that they will defend their nests at all cost. As long as you do not rock their nest (or otherwise cause strong vibration) or stand directly in their flight path, you are safe.

Different nests can be as close as a few meters and their inhabitants will mostly ignore each other. The hornets were about 7 or 8 meters away from the yellow jackets, and I have never seen them fight. If you put some fruit or honey somewhere, they will (mostly) peacefully share it.

European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are just big and loud. When one gets into the house, I usually wait for it to settle down somewhere and then carefully catch it with a glass and a piece of cardboard. We also have mosquito nets on all windows and doors.

Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple square kilometers. When they come back they immediately go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may inspect the closer area, but this is rare.

Once you understand wasps, there is not much to fear. I understand your concerns regarding you child/children, and it is probably a good idea to keep wasps at a distance for some time. When children grow up, there is little danger, though. The sting of a single wasp or hornet will not harm a human being unless you are allergic. (European!) hornets use almost the same venom as yellow jackets, only more of it. (In Asia or South America, be more careful!)

Finally, wasps do not want to sting you. Most of the time they are just investigating. When a flying wasp bothers you, slowly and carefully push it away with your hand. Most of the time it will just go away. On the net there are videos of some guy who tries to get stung by various wasps. It is educating to see how much he had to bother them before they did.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:24AM (#33895391)
> directly in their flight path

My experience of sitting outside in the summer (modulo NW England) is that their flight path covers getting close to 100% of the airspace in my garden.

Though I'm sure there are other varieties I've only ever seen one type of wasp in the UK, and that's this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowjacket, and my experience of them is that they are irritating and aggressive bastards. I don't doubt that wasps are an integral part of the ecosystem, but I'd prefer it if they integrated into a geographically distinct part of the ecosystem from me and my lunch.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by merry_flame on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:01AM (#33921911)
Is there perhaps something related to smell or movement? The only time I got stung by a yellowjacket is when I pulled a Miyamato Musashi and caught one with some chopsticks. I got two deserved stings out of the experience, but yellowjackets have treated me well since. I've observed that though yellowjackets might want to land on people and investigate a while, they're soon gone as long as there's no beer involved. I just semi-freeze for a few seconds and let them do their thing. Obviously a bit uncomfortable when they land on the face or neck, but the only people I know who seem to have been stung as adults are those that are clearly panicky around wasps. I'd go so far as to qualify them as placid. Horseflies are aggressive and another beast altogether...
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:39PM (#33938259)
As far as I know they're attracted to things they can use as a food source, but that's a guess.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:18AM (#33896154)
> stand directly in their flight path, you are safe

Having been chased by wasps while on a riding lawnmower, I'm calling bullshit! And those suckers are fast!

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by joseda-hg on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:50PM (#33903512)
I was going to say, back in my home country (South America) the recommendation was (is?) destroy nests on sight (If inside/near a home) because they tend to not only be territorial, but also proactively aggresive. (Our species don't fuck around, even the names are scary, eye stinger?, butcher wasp?, black cowboy?)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by eimrine on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:39AM (#33893645)
> European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are just big and loud.

Seems like you are talking about bombus, not vespa. The worst thing about hornets is that if one insect has bit you somewhere near their nest than you better run as fast as possible from that place because of pheromone mark.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:25AM (#33894051)
I am talking about vespa crabro, the European hornet. All social wasps use pheromones to mark intruders. If you are being stung while close to a nest, yes, do walk away. That being said, I have been stung once (own mistake) while standing 2 meters away from a nest and nothing happened.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:01PM (#33902194)
Curious. The reason I mentioned nests being close together upthread is because - per my understanding - both being stung by a wasp/hornet and killing one releases pheromones that makes other wasps/hornets go into aggressive mode. So I'm imagining the two nests being so close to each other will, eventually, trigger a war, which only ends once one of the side is eradicated. I wouldn't want to see anything like that near my house.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rascul on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:38AM (#33894180)
> Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple square kilometers. When they come back they immediately go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may inspect the closer area, but this is rare.

Not the wasps here. There's always a few wasps flying around the nests when I find them.

It also doesn't take much to aggravate them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:48AM (#33894265)
If you mean directly in front of the entrance, yes, there will always be a bunch of wasps waiting for their turn to get in. And, yes, do not get too close to that spot unless you know what you are doing. In particular: know their flight paths and do not stand there.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lostapathy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:26AM (#33895411)
So when they built a nest near my back door, I'm just supposed to surrender my back patio so them so I can stay out of their flight paths?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:44AM (#33895644)
As I wrote before, if you want to get rid of them, there are ways to do so (and keep them away) without killing them.

But to answer your question more directly: We have happily surrendered part of our terrace to wasps. Their right to live tops our desire for convenience. A nest lives for one year. If we do not want them to use the same spot next year, there are ways to make sure they do not.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lostapathy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:55AM (#33895797)
I'm not surrendering "part of my terrace" to wasps - I'm talking about the rest of my family being unwilling to open the back door because there are always wasps flying near it. I'm not willing to surrender my back door to wasps for a year in hopes they find new flight patterns next year.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by winReInstall on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:28AM (#33893180)
Nonsense, hornets eat yellow jackets as snacks.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:30AM (#33894104)
Larger wasps prey on smaller wasps, but they can still coexist in close proximity. They do not spend the entire day with hunting.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by winReInstall on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:24AM (#33896250)
It depends on the dietary needs of the hive, but beneath the pear tree of my fathers farm, they most definitly did. Swoop, crack open, slurp. Was a evening background noise..
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by yafbum on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:14AM (#33895243)
When eating outdoor in the summer requires you to swat away the same wasps from your plate over and over again, it's definitely annoying. I was stung as a kid for no reason, it was a pain for me and my parents to deal with. My wife and kid were stung also by wasps they could not see.

We get rid of termites and insects by fumigating entire buildings. I don't see anything wrong with doing that to wasps as well. After all, in all likelihood, wasps will vastly outlive the human species...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by throwaway85858 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:03AM (#33893002)
This is not true.

"in the last 5 years in NordRhein-Westfalen only once was someone fined 45 euros for destroying a wasps nest" https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2018/07/24/nein-wer-eine-e...

The fines for thousands of euros are the maximum possible fines, which massively differs to how fines are handed out in practice.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by mustyoshi on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:33AM (#33894128)
So they have a law on the books that isn't really enforced?

That's almost worse imo.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:19AM (#33895313)
It was though, a fine was levied. There's flexibility in the punishments that are dished out in a lot of justice systems and I suspect it's to take into account that the law is not really nuanced. It's hard to write down /all/ possible motives, reasons or contexts in which a law or rule has been broken, and allowing the punishment to be scaled based on judgement seems like a reasonable thing to allow. I guess that's what judges are for.

Of course this raises questions around who is making these judgements, and there's sometimes unfairness in how they are applied (eg. police in the US, broken tail lights and the colour of skin of the person stopped), but it doesn't mean that the underlying goal isn't sound, just the implementation.

Personally I've had experience of this. My car tax (UK) lapsed and I didn't renew it. An oversight during a busy time of my life (moving house), and one that I noticed and fixed independently once I noticed, it must have been after a month or two.

However, during the period when my car wasn't taxed the police noticed and reported it (to the authorities, not to me) who issued a fine (~£90) that was sent to me by post. Unfortunately though I'd told the authorities that I'd moved house, twice, they sent the fine and all followup correspondence to my old address and I ended up with a choice, pay debt collectors (they managed to find my new house /just fine/) for the now increased fine + expenses (in the region of ~£800) or go to court. Worst case either way was I'd have to pay the increased amount.

I went to court and the three justices deliberated my case (I could hear them) and though they decided that I could afford the increased amount, it wouldn't be in anyone's interest to levy it as the circumstances in which this happened mitigated my lack of attention to the increasing fines. I wasn't a deliberate law breaker and ultimately a large fine wasn't going to change my on consideration generally good behaviour, and they made me pay the original ~£90 rather than the substantially increased amount.

As the saying goes, the law is an ass.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by JPLeRouzic on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:19AM (#33895320)
In France there are a lot of new laws every year (~100) but at least on third of them will not be enforced, mostly because there is no budget to implement them, or it is political gesticulation to please some electors [0].

For example over the year 2009/2010, 59 laws, which provided for 670 implementing decrees, were promulgated.

According to a Senate report, as of September 30, 2010, only 3 laws had received all of their implementing decrees. And only 20% of these decrees had seen the light of day. However, a law without an implementing decree is useless: it is not applicable.

[0] https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/parlement/faute-de-decret-d-...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by donatj on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:34AM (#33894730)
Most laws are poorly enforced and only get invoked when you have otherwise pissed the right person off and they’re looking for something to get you on.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hnbad on Friday December 09, 2022 @03:20AM (#33918941)
So what I said is true. "Up to" does not say anything about the typical amount.

Your fact check article is also only partially relevant as it addresses the sensationalist claim that these fines apply to killing a wasp but the conversation was about a wasps nest.

The article also states that these maximum fines exist but that even the very low fines that have been handed out only happen very rarely. In other words: the laws exist but they're applied so rarely as to be effectively meaningless (which is true not just for wasps but for animal cruelty in general). That doesn't disagree with what I said though.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by romanovcode on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:32AM (#33891324)
Why are wasps protected in Germany? I understand bees, but what good are wasps for?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by biztos on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:35AM (#33891667)
Without the wasps crawling into the sugar dispensers at every single outdoor café in Germany all summer long, people would eat the sugar and create a diabetes epidemic.

At least that was my impression in Berlin; wasps got all the sugar, Berliners stayed pretty thin for the most part.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by JakobH on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:57AM (#33919573)
Sounds like i need more wasps in my house!
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by type0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:25PM (#33899758)
Ah, this explains the bitterness of Berliners
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by constGard on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:01AM (#33891498)
I'll add my own annecdote to this article. We had a wasp nest under the eaves of the house and I managed to successfully move them into a little hutch I built near the garden. I can't say I directly observed them saving the tomatoes, but we did have fewer tomato hornworms than in previous years.

They were also really docile and tolerated a good deal of me fumbling around with the nest. I waited until it was cold out and covered up pretty thouroghly, but they were mostly content to let me flop them around with a set of long BBQ tongs.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by KMnO4 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:55AM (#33891803)
Despite their aggression and desire for sugar, wasps are useful and important pollinators the same way that bees are.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by type0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:27PM (#33899783)
They also annihilate the bees which are much better pollinators
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nibbleshifter on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:08AM (#33891537)
Germany has some very silly laws.

The wasp protection one gets broken all the time for obvious reasons.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by linmob on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:42AM (#33891390)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hoseja on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:49AM (#33891756)
I've come around on wasps. They just do their thing. You got stung? Don't tread on them.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by yetihehe on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:24AM (#33891972)
Sometimes wasps have other ideas about "treading on them" like "You are near and made a sudden move, you are threat". It gets worse when you are allergic to wasps. I've worked near a place where transport company cleaned their syrup and milk carrying trailers, so we sometimes had a lot of wasps and one of coworkers had to constantly have adrenaline with him. If he got stung and couldn't do it himself, we were trained on how to jab him and call ambulance.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by InitialLastName on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:32AM (#33895498)
> one of coworkers had to constantly have adrenaline with him. If he got stung and couldn't do it himself, we were trained on how to jab him and call ambulance.

FWIW, this bit is true of everyone I've known who was aware of an anaphylactic allergy, independent of their likelihood of exposure to the allergen. "Carry an EpiPen, know how to use it, make sure some of the people around you are aware of your allergy and know how to handle a reaction" is a very light-weight and reliable solution to "something relatively common could easily kill me".

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jstrong on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:27AM (#33891296)
sounds more like a repugnant fact to me
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by throw827474737 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:06AM (#33891527)
Very ignorant! One can avoid wasps initially, or also later move them more peacefully. They are very important pollinators (we lack more&more) and even have more cool duties. Not sure about your wasps over there, the annoyance factor of the wasps in Germany is usually heavily overdramatized and human arrogance at its best.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by aidenn0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:21AM (#33891599)
In the US, it's yellowjackets (vespinae, minus the hornets) that are rather annoying. They are attracted to sugar and meat, and sting rather aggressively, which makes outdoor barbecues unpleasant (to put it mildly); paper-wasps (Polistinae) are indeed rather easy to live alongside, but they look quite similar so inherit the bad-rap that yellowjackets have.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by distances on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:14AM (#33892687)
The Central European wasp is a yellowjacket, Vespula germanica. It is very attracted to sweets and foods especially in the autumn. However, it does not usually sting unless there's a reason, such as you're trying to sit on it.

I myself have had zero stings of any bee or wasp in my life so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate. Some people are absolutely terrified about them though so "just let them be" rarely seems to be good advice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespula_germanica

Edit: actually I don't know which one is more common, Vespula germanica or Vespula vulgaris. I wouldn't be able to differentiate between them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ambicapter on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:13AM (#33893449)
> I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate

In my experience your hand is a minor annoyance that they'll fly around and continue eating. Only way to have peace is to lay traps around your eating area.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dmix on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:11AM (#33893059)
> so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate

I’ve found wasps extremely persistent and confident in ways most insects never are.

It’s one thing to gentle swat them but when they come back for 5-10min straight it's understandable why people don't like them.

I also got bit on the mouth as a child when I drank a can of coke that had a wasp inside so I'm not exactly unbiased.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by deelowe on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:33AM (#33893600)
Where I live paper wasps are aggressive and multiply quite rapidly. We went from one next to dozens in just a couple of years. I probably get stung at least once a year.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jstrong on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:18AM (#33891587)
"yeah, what did wasps ever do to you?" attack the shit out of me for no good reason!
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by amalcon on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:34AM (#33893605)
Avoid your own house or yard? Annoyance? Tell that to my wife, my brother in law, my uncle, my cousin, or my good friend. They all could literally die if stung, and have all been to the hospital at least once after a sting.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lm28469 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:52AM (#33892513)
Average human in the middle of a massive, probably partially man made, extinction: "lmao I don't like them let's kill them"
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by m463 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:54PM (#33898515)
in comparison, when I bought a live-catch mousetrap recently, the guy at the store said it was illegal to release the mouse in the county. (implying you should buy the catch-and-kill trap variety)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by petre on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:31AM (#33891318)
I suppose it's legal to pack it and ship it to the Bundestag or whichever authority came up with that law then.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ljf on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:42AM (#33895619)
I dislike wasps - BUT the good thing if you find a nest, is the knowledge that they will never return to a nest the following year - so the next actually becomes something that will help prevent future wasp infestations.

When we bought our last house I changed a light fitting and live wasps poured out - I was freaked out, and put the fitting straight back.

A few days later I went into the attic to put some boxes up there and found a HUGE nest near the light fitting. I put my hand on it and could feel and warmth and buzz of the wasps. It was already mid summer so I just left it (there were not loose wasps in the attic - their entrance/exit was into the eves of the house).

By autumn they were gone, and we never again had a wasp issue in our house in the 10 years we lived there. I changed the light fitting the following spring.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by m463 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:50PM (#33898446)
I've found that a wasp nest is still a hint that wasps will make nests nearby.

I had a shed (and a car) that had empty nests and then got nests nearby later.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by essentialfloss on Thursday December 08, 2022 @04:02PM (#33913369)
There has been a wasp nest inside a tree in my yard for 5 years.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ljf on Thursday December 15, 2022 @06:17PM (#34007192)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by akita-ken on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @10:59PM (#33890478)
All those use-cases you've described actually seem really practical, especially the fraud detection. Being able to detect things that would otherwise be invisible or require physical contact to ascertain already makes it a worthwhile EDC tool in my opinion.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jcims on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:48AM (#33894269)
I’ve got a Seek Thermal attachment from my iPhone I got on cyber Monday a few years ago. Once you have one you find all sorts of uses for them.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by legitster on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @10:53PM (#33890449)
All things considered, 4 years is pretty good!

Someone explained to me it's more of a supply chain thing than planned obsolescence. Phone technology and batteries specifically have pretty short production lives - keeping a battery in production and in stock for long periods of time can be crippling to your product line when the competitors come out with 10% denser batteries every year.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Fatnino on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:41PM (#33890683)
So sell compatible size higher density batteries.

Actual disposable batteries (remember those?) have improved dramatically over the decades but you can still put a brand new AA battery loaded with the latest 2022 tech into a remote control from the 50s and expect it to work.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by SideQuark on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:55PM (#33890756)
>Actual disposable batteries

they have the same form factor, and they have not changed much over decades in capability and certainly not size.

Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size.

When phone batteries get higher density, then it's likely a readeoff between adding more other features and keeping the same battery size - and as other features change, so do battery needs. The rapid evolution of phone tech, in every aspect, makes it cheaper (and wiser) to re-eval each piece quickly, or you get beat in the market place.

Maybe in decades this will settle down, like it took for the disposable batteries to standardize over decades...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by KronisLV on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:51AM (#33891772)
> Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size.

It would be nice if that wasn't the case.

I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools, so that they are interchangeable. I can imagine something like that happening industry-wide with a bit more lawmaking, like happened with USB types.

Actually, it would be even better if we had a few common phone battery standards and every manufacturer had to use those (ideally with removable batteries). This might mean that phones would have to be built with the batteries in mind, not vice versa, which doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

Then again, personally I wouldn't even mind if there were like 10-20 common phone form factors in the first place.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by unwind on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:36AM (#33892422)
Have you seen AMPShare Alliance [1]? It's a common 18-volt battery tool platform with many partners.

Mostly industrial/professional tools so far but I hope it will continue to grow. Yes, I have Bosch stuff. :)

[1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ng/en/

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ProZsolt on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:36AM (#33933975)
There is also the Cordless Alliance System[1]. The problem they are all small players except Bosch. Once two of the big players (Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc.) start sharing batteries hen it will make a difference. Bosch don't even share batteries between their blue and green lineup.

[1]: https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rasz on Saturday December 10, 2022 @12:34PM (#33934566)
haha, TTI doesnt even share batteries between its own brands, and you expect manufacturers to adopt same standard? :D

https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by radicalbyte on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:00AM (#33891829)
> I've seen power tools from certain companies adopt the same battery type across multiple of their tools

That's because electric power tools are sold as a platform: you choose a brand and buy in to their platform. For example I mainly use a driver + drill so bought in to Milwaukee. Ended up buying a lot of other kit from them too.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rlt on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:50AM (#33892140)
> with a bit more lawmaking

No thanks. Things like this almost always have unintended consequences.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lm28469 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:55AM (#33892538)
Because the opposite doesn't have unintended consequences ? Do you know what we do with e waste ? ship them to Africa/China for """recycling"""
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by asddubs on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:12AM (#33892276)
you could say that about literally any law. should we just not have laws then, lest there be unintended consequences?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:18AM (#33892315)
A silly question then: why there are no AA/AAA rechargeable batteries that are Li-Ion/Li-Poly/whatever chemistry is used in smartphone batteries? Seems like a no-brainer to me: use the apparently better, more advanced, more energy-dense chemistry, but in a standard AA/AAA format. Pack whatever control electronics you need for safety too. Not only my remote controls would have half a decade of battery life, an iPhone could be powered off 2 such AAs, instead of 8-10 regular ones like other commenters here calculated.

Why isn't it done? Where's the catch?

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by reisse on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:47AM (#33892487)
The catch is that Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have much higher self-discharge rate than alkaline AA/AAAs, so you could not use them in remote controls anyway.

For powering iPhones, you can buy a few 18650 with a type-C/lightning case from AliExpress, but most people will prefer just buying a powerbank.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:06AM (#33892617)
> The catch is that Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have much higher self-discharge rate than alkaline AA/AAAs, so you could not use them in remote controls anyway.

How does that compare with NiMh, or whichever is the current standard chemistry for rechargeable AA/AAAs? I may be misguided here, but I generally avoid regular single-use AA/AAAs, as it feels like a complete waste of energy - even if properly disposed of, I don't imagine they get recharged by some factory and put back on the market, so all the embodied energy that went into making them is lost.

> For powering iPhones, you can buy a few 18650 with a type-C/lightning case from AliExpress, but most people will prefer just buying a powerbank.

At least some of the power banks I've disassembled in the past were just 18650s with a case, USB port and charging circuitry, so I can't blame people for buying it already pre-assembled.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by deelowe on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:37AM (#33893630)
NiMh is better but alkaline still lasts longer. For low drain devices like remotes where shelf life is a bigger concern than power draw, I’ve heard zinc is better still. These are often labeled “heavy duty.”
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by butterknife on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:35AM (#33892412)
The Li chemistry produces much higher voltages and so would require step down circuitry to function as a direct replacement for AA/AAA. If you are talking about form factor, then there are a lot of similar size or smaller cells available.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:02AM (#33892595)
I'm talking about having rechargeable AA/AAAs with higher power density, possibly using the same chemistry as in phones, laptops, drones, etc., so the industry could cut down on the amount of variation in sizes and connector types (which could possibly make the batteries somewhat cheaper thanks to less variation in manufacturing - though I suppose the price driver is still the chemistry).

What's the minimum voltage we could get without intervention? I'm not well-versed in batteries, but I do recall that a typical Li-Ion cell has 3.7V on output, which might be tricky to fit into one AA/AAA, but isn't that far from two AA/AAAs.

While there's no standard way for devices to accept multiple AA/AAAs, to a first approximation, a Li-Ion cell reformatted into a shape of two AAs with ~1-2mm "space" between them, would fit all my remotes and a third of my children's toys - so I could see a "Li-Ion double AA" working as a product, provided it could shed that 0.7V somewhere. The biggest problem would be devices accepting odd number of batteries.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rjmunro on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:04AM (#33893006)
They sell double-AA sized rechargeable batteries for XBox controllers. https://www.xbox.com/en-GB/accessories/batteries-chargers/pl...

This specific battery is unlikely to work for other devices because the controller has an extra connector, presumably to detect it and control charging (which happens over a USB cable). You'd at least need an XBox controller to charge it.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by detaro on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:01AM (#33892980)
There are standard formats for cells in Lithium-based chemistries, but they are different sizes then the Ni-based ones because of the entirely different voltages. How (not) commonly they are used tells you something how much industry cares about avoiding many different sizes. (part of it is probably also that round cells are space-inefficient in devices that aren't tube-shaped - most common consumer use cases where the consumer handles individual cells are flashlights and vape devices, and some markets do have proprietary designs as de-facto standards)

Some manufacturers also make Li-Ion replacements for multi-AA devices, but thats then specific to manufacturer and device and the exact placement it expects.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nicoburns on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:56AM (#33895818)
I think the issue is that li-ion isn't that much better than NiMH as to be worth it. It's also worth noting that there are already standard sized Li-ion batteries. 18650 batteries (so called because they are 18mm diameter by 650mm long) are the most common, but there are a bunch of other standard sizes. These are commonly used in things torches (flashlights) and headlamps.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by butterknife on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:56AM (#33892938)
There might be some market but anecdotally, AA/AAA as a widely accepted platform, and for that matter replaceable batteries in general, seem to be a thing of past.

I do have devices where the 2xAAs are in a column configuration.

Edit: Replaced remote with devices (it's a keyboard not a remote)

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Zanfa on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:07AM (#33892628)
Regular single-use alkaline AA batteries are more energy dense than comparable rechargeable lithium based ones (up to 3000mAh for a single AA vs 3200mAh for iPhone 14 Pro). They're also safer and have lower self-discharge.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:10AM (#33892659)
That's 3000 mAh @1.5V vs. 3200mAh @...3.7V? That would give those alkaline AAs half of the energy density of a lithium one. And, that's single-use, which I'm not a fan of, because all the energy embodied in a heavy metal cylinder goes to waste.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Panzer04 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:26AM (#33893539)
The phone battery is bigger. For perspective, an 18650 battery is substantially bigger than a AA, but the best they can do is ~3500mAh. Iirc AA lithium batteries are barely more dense than alkaline or nickel, and are awkwardly high voltage so require a buck corcuit, further harming performance.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by mrguyorama on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:44PM (#33898360)
Lithium chemistry in a AA form factor, with integrated downconversion and even charging port and circuitry in each individual battery, are cheaply available on Amazon, eBay, newegg etc. Depending on how much you want to spend, they range from no-name companies lying about huge capacities, to real brands advertising (unfortunately in mWh!) genuinely useful capacities, and they are CHEAP. They handily beat Ni-mh batteries in pretty much every way; capacity, self discharge, useful voltage until they die (this actually has a downside in that device battery indicators can't tell that the batteries are running low), cycle lifetime, no annoying management like having to be careful when and how you charge your batteries etc.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by pajko on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:34AM (#33893232)
High capacity rechargeable NiMH and lithium batteries are 1.2V.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Panzer04 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:24AM (#33893525)
You’d need a buck converter for discharging the battery, and they aren’t much better than NiMH batteries at it. So it’s cheaper to just buy Eneloops if you want AA/AAA batteries
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by mnw21cam on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:59AM (#33895037)
I have some such AAA batteries. Not for the extra capacity - I'm not convinced they actually have any better capacity than the NiMH I was using before, but because they hold 1.5V for the duration of their charge, and for some reason my headphone can't cope with less than 1.5V.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by agapon on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:23AM (#33892728)
There are such batteries, I saw them on Aliexpress. They are not cheap, though.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dotancohen on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:40AM (#33892081)
> Phone batteries do not do this - they are designed to fit in a certain (few) phones, and market change on phone sizes mean there is no standard size.

But the voltage remains the same: 3.7 discharged and 4.2 volts fully charged.

I really don't care if the outer dimensions of the battery are sloppy by 5 mm or if the capacity is smaller (or larger) by a few hundred or even a thousand mAh - so long as I can replace the _absolutely dead_ battery already in the device. I'll pad out the rest with styrofoam or even just squeeze some tacky clay in there to prevent it from rattling.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lm28469 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:54AM (#33892527)
It's a choice we make, not a God given rule that we have to abid to or perish in fire
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by mongol on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:57PM (#33890765)
Imagine a smartphone designed to use AAA batteries. That would be something. Would be cool to see.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by strogonoff on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:50AM (#33891763)
I’ve recently started using active noise cancellation headphones that are powered by a single AAA battery, and this significantly lightened my battery life anxiety[0]. It’s a completely different feeling when a device that’s with you every day is not “disposable” anymore and liberating to not be hostage to battery condition. It’ll probably last for as long as I maintain it, and if charge runs out at an inconvenient moment I can simply pop in a spare.

In case of smartphones it could work if we go through a fundamental shift: switch to e-ink or similar, reduce expectations of hardware performance, be much more efficient as app developers and have reliable ways of testing that efficiency. I’d welcome this personally, but I doubt even Apple with its marketing prowess could make it desirable for mainstream audiences after years of stressing CPU, GPU, RAM numbers and gaming capabilities.

I suspect it’s probably less of a possibility with laptops. Keeping battery designs proprietary, being free from regulatory friction, being able to charge for replacement is probably part of the incentives that got them where they are in terms of capacity and size. If we mandated using standardized easily replaceable batteries a la AA/AAA, we would have bulkier laptops that can’t last a day (let alone on any demanding task), and spares would be too bulky to carry for those who want to walk light.

[0] Stressing over battery charge and battery health of our devices. A situation where battery runs out just as we vitally need the device is enough to be in once, so we charge defensively. We also know that battery health decreases over time (the device is gradually “used up”), and we try to prolong it: we experience stress every time the battery is too low since this runs it down and every time we leave it connected for too long because constantly topping up the charge to 100% also runs it down. So we subconsciously track short-term battery charge and long-term battery health, and we are painfully aware that they deteriorate with every second—and unlike external wear, this deterioration concerns not aesthetics but device’s ability to be more than a brick. (It is probably less concerning to those who drive a fossil fuel car everywhere, those who spend most of their time home or at work, or those who feel financially and ethically OK just getting a new device whenever it seems as if the battery doesn’t hold or a new model comes out.)

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by linmob on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:49AM (#33891434)
My Newton MessagePad 2100 used 4 AA batteries, the Palm m105 used 2 AAA batteries, so this used to be possible with monochrome displays.

But: Watt hours (Wh) are quite low for these NiMH rechargebles. I think what would be preferable would be a standardised size of phone-fitting Li-Ion batteries that manufacturers are required to use.

(I highly doubt that this will ever happen, though.)

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by 867-5309 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:36AM (#33892051)
pretty sure >10 years ago I had an array of aftermarket Li-Ion batteries for the Samsung Galaxy S2, which were able to be quickly swapped in and out when needed. there were same sized ones with slightly higher capacity than the one the phone came with, then there were double thickness ones with double the capacity that came with their own replacement battery cover. think they went up to 5000mAh. there were the usual Chinese 'gold' and 'fire' brands, but you could also pay a bit more for Japanese. they all worked and never swelled or exploded. perhaps I was just lucky. those were the days..
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jaclaz on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:53AM (#33892519)
Years before, the typical (at the time very common at least here) Motorola MicroTac and later models:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MicroTAC

had a battery which was the actual "back cover" (it was connected to the phone via sliding), and everyone had at least two batteries, there were all kind of slim to bulkier sizes.

Some of them (medium sized) simply contained 5 (Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh) AAA batteries.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:21AM (#33890888)
> Would be cool to see.

Probably not the word I’d have used. You’d need what, 6 high-capacity AAAs to get standard battery size/life? Maybe 8? Possibly 10 with recent phones?

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Nition on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:43AM (#33891029)
An iPhone 14 Pro has a 3,200mAh battery.

The Energiser rechargeable AAA I happen to have here is 800mAh.

So exactly four standard rechargeable AAAs. Not bad really.

Edit: As explained below, this is incorrect, as I didn't take voltage into account.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by coder543 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:48AM (#33891055)
"mAh" is a useless measurement that should be banned from marketing to the public, period. It does not actually represent the energy stored in the batteries, and it can easily mislead people. I also get annoyed that no one uses Ah, when "thousands of thousandths" is a really annoying way to communicate. 3200mAh -> 3.2Ah. Why do no manufacturers understand this? And why don't manufacturers just use a proper unit that measures the energy stored in the battery?

You must compare watt-hours (or use joules, if you like) for it to be meaningful. AAA voltage is 1.5V, lithium ion voltage is 3.7V or 4.2V or something, which means that each "mAh" is worth several times as much as one from a AAA battery.

The iPhone 14 Pro battery is about 12Wh. A single AAA battery has about 1.9Wh, according to google. So, 6 AAA batteries, optimistically, excluding other factors that could raise the count. Using your number of 800mAh*1.5V=1.2Wh, which would mean 10 AAA batteries.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by consp on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:21AM (#33891256)
The load characteristics also matter. Under certain load profiles those AAAs won't come even close to their rated capacity (no matter what misleading unit used). I also find the 1.9wh very optimistic, I guess you took the average AA capacity, in which case the battery would almost become bigger than the phone.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:26AM (#33891288)
1.9 seems like a typo as 12/1.9 is 6.3, nowhere near 10. 800mAh seems to be a pretty available capacity and yields 1200mWh which tracks with the factor.

Though I think I’ve seen up to 1200.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by coder543 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:34AM (#33891344)
1.9Wh was the number I saw on Google. 10 was just me not thinking clearly late at night. I updated my comment.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by coder543 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:37AM (#33891363)
Load characteristics do complicate things as well, but I figured even the optimistic case involved enough batteries to dissuade anyone from this idea.

There are other non-rechargeable chemistries that are far more energy dense than AAA batteries, and those might be interesting to discuss.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:23AM (#33891269)
Preach brother.

I guess it kinda worked when everything was 1.5V but even then it was pretty stupid, and it’s been a while.

And I feel like we’ve regressed somehow? Didn’t every smartphone use to advertise battery capacity in (m)Wh, like laptops? I feel like just a few years ago that was the prominent measure, and you’d get voltage and Ah as side-notes, e.g. the iPhone 12 wiki page states

> 3.83 V 10.78 Wh (2,815 mAh)

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dotancohen on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:45AM (#33892106)
mAh is perfectly fine for a first-order comparison of two competing batteries, because those two batteries will only compete for a specific workload if they have the same voltage. If I need a phone with a large battery, and all phones are 3.8 volts (yes, I do mean 3.7-4.2) then comparing mAh is useful, (assuming background battery usage of the two devices is similar, which actually isn't often true, but that's a different issue).
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:21AM (#33893124)
> mAh is perfectly fine for a first-order comparison of two competing batteries

And yet it’s still dumb, because the actual energy density would let you make the exact same comparison anyway, and it would allow for easier comparison with other battery types or contexts.

> If I need a phone with a large battery, and all phones are 3.8 volts (yes, I do mean 3.7-4.2) then comparing mAh is useful

It’s not, there’s a >10% difference between the top and the bottom of the range.

Just give actual energy values, it’s strictly more useful.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dwighttk on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:58AM (#33893378)
Advertisers don’t care about useful. Many customers see mWh and mAh and think “that’s probably the same… and look! this one has thousands of em!”
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:19AM (#33893486)
Weirdly this doesn’t even hold, every battery is more than 1V so the Wh is always larger than the Ah. Makes no sense.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rjmunro on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:11AM (#33893056)
I think the mAh stays more or less constant no matter how fast you discharge the battery, but as current increases, the voltage drops so the total watt-hours is lower.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by masklinn on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:01AM (#33904722)
Hmmm that does make some sense, so a Wh value would either be approximate (off of the average / nominal battery voltage) or it would need to be a non-trivial integration over the battery’s voltage change?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by llampx on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:47AM (#33892120)
It would be easier to have a new standard of Li-Ion or Li-poly batteries optimized for newer devices, with flat rectangular (stackable?) packs. They would also be suitable for the current demands of current devices. (see what I did there?)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Tams80 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:22AM (#33892332)
We absolutely could.

But we won't as manufacturers want to use batteries in shapes they want. In the case of laptops of bigger this also often ends up with there still being space despite them using a custom size.

We were pretty close to a couple of standards of Li-Ion flat battery in the mid to late 00s, at least in Europe, due to proliferation of Nokia and Sony Ericsson. Nokia especially had some batteries that they used across several models. And the voltage and current being the same, you could also use smaller batteries in some models.

The latter has been useful for the 808 PureView I have. Getting the specific battery that it used is now impossible. But it can take a very common Nokia battery with a slightly lower capacity.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by yawniek on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:34AM (#33890966)
I have one. But is a nokia from the 80ies
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:45AM (#33891035)
Loved those. You could get an extended battery, nearly doubling the thickness of the phone.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Sakos on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:26AM (#33896273)
> All things considered, 4 years is pretty good!

4 years would be fine if you voluntarily upgrade because a newer model improves over what you have in an appreciable way. 4 years isn't fine if the device meets your needs and the only reason you have to replace it is because of the battery wearing out.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ThemalSpan on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:03PM (#33890496)
I think we can all agree that maximizing profit is a cause, while also acknowledging that the situation is not ideal. There are many solutions to this self-imposed problem, like standardizing the battery interfaces.

I agree most company's have no incentive to do that. I think those incentives should be put in place though.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by coder543 on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:56PM (#33890762)
I don't understand why everyone is acting like replacement batteries are unavailable.

Here's an amazon link to a variety of options:

https://www.amazon.com/CAT-S60-Cell-Phone-Replacement-Batter...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by kvakvs on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:36AM (#33890984)
The statement about battery not being replaceable is false. They are replaceable. But the phone body is sealed to deliver the water and dust resistance rating from its technical specs, so opening it is an entire new adventure in itself.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by sllabres on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:13AM (#33891207)
Water resistant (e.g. 30 min / 1 m) mobile phones with exchangeable batteries were quite common. They had easy to procure LiIon batteries which could replaced even by a clumsy person in minutes.

Would prefer that to a watertight phone with non replaceable batteries as aging or dying batteries are more common in my experience than my desire to go on a dive with my phone.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by minhazm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:39AM (#33891375)
> Water resistant (e.g. 30 min / 1 m) mobile phones with exchangeable batteries were quite common

I wouldn't say they were common, at least not for android smartphones. The first water resistant android phone was the Motorola Defy[1] in 2010. For Samsung they had the S4 Active and then the S5 had some water resistance. But then the S6 removed support for replaceable batteries. So the only Samsung phones with easily replaceable batteries and any water resistance were the S4 Active, S5 Active and the S5.

I think you're right that IP67 (30min / 1 meter) is probably achievable but I think most people prefer the better water resistance and by the time their phone battery degrades sufficiently they usually want a new phone. Additionally it's already possible to get your battery replaced. At least Apple will replace your phone battery going back to the 5S for $49 up to $99 for current models. I prefer this model where I have a trustworthy place to get the battery serviced that will preserve the water resistance for a somewhat reasonable price. I tried to look at the battery replacement cost for Samsung phones but couldn't find it, so maybe that's not a service they offer directly or it's just difficult to find.

[1] https://www.androidauthority.com/first-water-resistant-andro...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by sllabres on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:53AM (#33891456)
Agree. With common I was thinking of "not specialized rugged phones" but more consumer class. (As you have written Samsung S5, S5 mini, ...)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Tams80 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:25AM (#33892346)
Yes, but the point is that they are now only available on very niche devices.

There was a brief period where common devices had ingress resistance and easily removeable batteries. The most notable being the Samsung Galaxy S5.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ZiiS on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:42AM (#33892846)
If the manufactures wanted to they could easily make a sealed phone and a sealed battery and just clip them together. The extra thickness of two layers of waterproofing between them is arguable on a fashion phone but irrelevant on a product like this.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by Izkata on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:51PM (#33899300)
My last flip phone had a replaceable battery and was waterproof: the cover had a rubber gasket and you had to use a coin or key to pry it open.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nicolas_t on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:48AM (#33892130)
I'm actually considering buying a IR camera for testing insulation (I have a contractor working in my apartment and due to various instance of clear fraud from him I have no confidence or trust in him anymore). Would a HTI HT-102 be enough or is it better to get a better sensor?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by budzes on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:12AM (#33892670)
32x32 sensor is useless. You need at least 160x120px.

Cell phone attachment cameras have compatibility problems. For example, find reviews for Flir One Pro. If the cell cannot find the camera, then it's pretty useless.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by m463 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:56PM (#33898550)
I remember a few years back you could buy the cheapest FLIR camera and upgrade it to the expensive model with a firmware hack.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by fijiaarone on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:23AM (#33890895)
It’s ok to have a camera that is not a telephone
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:55AM (#33892169)
It's ok, but it does drastically reduce its utility. Conversely, anything that can be put into smartphone becomes much more useful. It often makes a difference between just having a tool for some odd job vs. gaining a capability.

The reason is simple: you always have your phone on you, or near you. It's the most easily accessible piece of electronics, and - if you're storage limited - the last one you're likely to leave behind. There is a generic social acceptance of everyone having a phone on them (even if stashed in a pocket).

A FLIR camera as a separate device? I'm unlikely to carry it with me unless I have a specific reason, and people will look at me weird if I walk around with one. A smartphone-attachable FLIR camera? It's still a hassle to carry, there's a good chance I'll leave one behind (comparable to a bluetooth headset). A FLIR camera built into smartphone? On me all the time, everywhere, and always ready to use in random, unpredictable situations.

And yes, it's the same reason why regular smartphone cameras all but killed the compact camera as a product. Having a tool always on you expands possible use cases so much it offsets for suboptimal performance/form factor.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by andai on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:13AM (#33891206)
I recently found myself avoiding my phone for various reasons. At home I'd rather get work done (wfh) and I prefer to leave it at home when I go for walks. But my phone is also my camera, so now whenever I see something beautiful, I am unable to photograph it.

I read the other day that compact camera sales had dropped by 98%. I guess I'm one of the 2% that actually has a need for one now.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by milsorgen on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:11AM (#33891891)
Grab something used with enough megapixels. I used an old Canon A590IS for years, even after I had a slew of Nikon dSLRs. I've found random compacts over 10MP for less than 20 dollars while thrifting. Completely competent images in day light tbqh. Low light and video capabilities are what really lags when compared to more recent camera tech but I've always limitation breeds creativity.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dotancohen on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:05AM (#33892232)
Just use airplane mode. I use it all the time, for this purpose exactly. Sometimes I am just not available - people have to accept that.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by graderjs on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:11AM (#33890841)
FLIR camera should also be able to pick up some UFO/UAP in the skies as well. Yay! Now nearly everyone can see some.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by sllabres on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:39AM (#33891370)
Nice idea, but I think for THIS application the FOV is to large and the resolution (160*120?) is to low. Of course the extraterrestrial knew that and therefore allowed the integration of the lapton chip into the phone <8-)

I use a dedicated thermal camera with bit higher resolution but higher FPS. As others have written they are quite useful as you see thing (even not ET) you could have measured with an IR thermometer if you knew they were there.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:25AM (#33892347)
> Of course the extraterrestrial knew that and therefore allowed the integration of the lapton chip into the phone <8-)

That's silly. The real reason is that the ITAR prohibits you from being able to get a higher-resolution thermal camera, which is one of several laws implementing a complex, global ban on technologies that would let regular people spot the aliens. You can thank a secret UN subcommittee for that; they've botched negotiations with aliens so badly that our governments are now forced to do the "hiding from people" work for them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by andai on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:14AM (#33891212)
Do satellites show up on infrared cameras? Or are you talking about some sort of aircraft?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by sllabres on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:57AM (#33891470)
Cant say for devices with higher resolution and stronger magnification (e.g. for hunting) but i don't think so too. Definitely not for the resolution and magnification we are talking here.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by saargrin on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:51AM (#33893327)
not really.. low resolution and focused in short range

i dont even get a blip when looking at airplanes with my thermal camera

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by kypro on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:06AM (#33893016)
> The lack of a replacable battery is infuriating because it's planned obselescence of a FLIR device.

I thought the move away from easily removable cases and batteries was more for waterproofing reasons?

Plus, I'm guessing the battery can be replaced, just not by the average user. I'm sure you could get it replaced if you're willing to pay a repair fee.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by almog on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:27AM (#33893173)
It doesn't have to prevent it from being waterproof, see for example Samsung Galaxy XCover 6 Pro which has removable battery and IP68 rating.

I really wish phone manufacturers started making flagship-like phones with a removable battery.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by m463 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:48PM (#33898414)
I'm sort of reminded of how cellphone cameras became used for selfies.

I wonder what other use cases previously "serious" technology will be used for.

I remember someone had a magnet of some sort embedded in their finger and could detect current fluctuations in underground electrical systems underneath a city sidewalk.