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Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hnbad on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:22AM (#33891260)
Fun fact: in most of Germany this would have been a crime with a penalty of up to tens of thousands in EUR depending on the exact species.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:51AM (#33892508)
Wasps have such a bad reputation. We have had nests of yellow jackets (vespula germanica), paper wasps (polistes dominula), and hornets (vespa crabro) directly on our terrace, and I have been stung once in ten years and that was my fault.

There once was a nest of vespula germanica above the window of my study, a rather big nest that grew to a size of about 3000 or 4000 animals. The only thing I did about it was to close a hole in the wall, because a few of them kept coming inside. I sometimes went outside to watch the traffic at the entrance of the nest.

More fun facts: wasps eat mosquitos. Lots of them! And they pollinate plants. Adult wasps are vegetarians, when they hunt or steal a piece of your steak (I have seen that happen!), then they collect food for their larvae.

If you really want to get rid of wasps, use an essential oil (peppermint, lemon grass). Wasps communicate using pheromones and do not tolerate strong odor. Do not spray the nest, spray the area around the nest. You do not have to kill them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:22AM (#33892726)
Just reading this makes me sweat. Aren't hornets - and wasps, to a lesser degree - extremely territorial? How do you deal with one when it find its way inside you house? Not to mention, aren't hornets and wasps natural enemies? I imagine you didn't have the two set their nests near your terrace simultaneously?

I can intellectually process all the facts you wrote, but in my dealing with wasps and hornets, I find it hard to see them as anything than fast-moving balls of pain, always ready to strike at you out of nowhere, when you least expect them. Also, as a relatively fresh parent, as a threat to my children. I tend to prefer dealing with them by installing mosquito nets in all windows, but if a hornet gets in and doesn't politely leave, it's makeshift flamethrower time.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:58AM (#33892958)
Yes, wasps are territorial, but this just means that they will defend their nests at all cost. As long as you do not rock their nest (or otherwise cause strong vibration) or stand directly in their flight path, you are safe.

Different nests can be as close as a few meters and their inhabitants will mostly ignore each other. The hornets were about 7 or 8 meters away from the yellow jackets, and I have never seen them fight. If you put some fruit or honey somewhere, they will (mostly) peacefully share it.

European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are just big and loud. When one gets into the house, I usually wait for it to settle down somewhere and then carefully catch it with a glass and a piece of cardboard. We also have mosquito nets on all windows and doors.

Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple square kilometers. When they come back they immediately go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may inspect the closer area, but this is rare.

Once you understand wasps, there is not much to fear. I understand your concerns regarding you child/children, and it is probably a good idea to keep wasps at a distance for some time. When children grow up, there is little danger, though. The sting of a single wasp or hornet will not harm a human being unless you are allergic. (European!) hornets use almost the same venom as yellow jackets, only more of it. (In Asia or South America, be more careful!)

Finally, wasps do not want to sting you. Most of the time they are just investigating. When a flying wasp bothers you, slowly and carefully push it away with your hand. Most of the time it will just go away. On the net there are videos of some guy who tries to get stung by various wasps. It is educating to see how much he had to bother them before they did.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:24AM (#33895391)
> directly in their flight path

My experience of sitting outside in the summer (modulo NW England) is that their flight path covers getting close to 100% of the airspace in my garden.

Though I'm sure there are other varieties I've only ever seen one type of wasp in the UK, and that's this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowjacket, and my experience of them is that they are irritating and aggressive bastards. I don't doubt that wasps are an integral part of the ecosystem, but I'd prefer it if they integrated into a geographically distinct part of the ecosystem from me and my lunch.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by merry_flame on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:01AM (#33921911)
Is there perhaps something related to smell or movement? The only time I got stung by a yellowjacket is when I pulled a Miyamato Musashi and caught one with some chopsticks. I got two deserved stings out of the experience, but yellowjackets have treated me well since. I've observed that though yellowjackets might want to land on people and investigate a while, they're soon gone as long as there's no beer involved. I just semi-freeze for a few seconds and let them do their thing. Obviously a bit uncomfortable when they land on the face or neck, but the only people I know who seem to have been stung as adults are those that are clearly panicky around wasps. I'd go so far as to qualify them as placid. Horseflies are aggressive and another beast altogether...
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:39PM (#33938259)
As far as I know they're attracted to things they can use as a food source, but that's a guess.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:18AM (#33896154)
> stand directly in their flight path, you are safe

Having been chased by wasps while on a riding lawnmower, I'm calling bullshit! And those suckers are fast!

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by joseda-hg on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:50PM (#33903512)
I was going to say, back in my home country (South America) the recommendation was (is?) destroy nests on sight (If inside/near a home) because they tend to not only be territorial, but also proactively aggresive. (Our species don't fuck around, even the names are scary, eye stinger?, butcher wasp?, black cowboy?)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by eimrine on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:39AM (#33893645)
> European hornets are not aggressive at all, they are just big and loud.

Seems like you are talking about bombus, not vespa. The worst thing about hornets is that if one insect has bit you somewhere near their nest than you better run as fast as possible from that place because of pheromone mark.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:25AM (#33894051)
I am talking about vespa crabro, the European hornet. All social wasps use pheromones to mark intruders. If you are being stung while close to a nest, yes, do walk away. That being said, I have been stung once (own mistake) while standing 2 meters away from a nest and nothing happened.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:01PM (#33902194)
Curious. The reason I mentioned nests being close together upthread is because - per my understanding - both being stung by a wasp/hornet and killing one releases pheromones that makes other wasps/hornets go into aggressive mode. So I'm imagining the two nests being so close to each other will, eventually, trigger a war, which only ends once one of the side is eradicated. I wouldn't want to see anything like that near my house.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by rascul on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:38AM (#33894180)
> Another fun fact: wasps will not spend much time around their nests. They usually leave the nest at high speed (do not stand there!) and then roam an area of multiple square kilometers. When they come back they immediately go back into the nest. Sometimes a single animal may inspect the closer area, but this is rare.

Not the wasps here. There's always a few wasps flying around the nests when I find them.

It also doesn't take much to aggravate them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:48AM (#33894265)
If you mean directly in front of the entrance, yes, there will always be a bunch of wasps waiting for their turn to get in. And, yes, do not get too close to that spot unless you know what you are doing. In particular: know their flight paths and do not stand there.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lostapathy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:26AM (#33895411)
So when they built a nest near my back door, I'm just supposed to surrender my back patio so them so I can stay out of their flight paths?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:44AM (#33895644)
As I wrote before, if you want to get rid of them, there are ways to do so (and keep them away) without killing them.

But to answer your question more directly: We have happily surrendered part of our terrace to wasps. Their right to live tops our desire for convenience. A nest lives for one year. If we do not want them to use the same spot next year, there are ways to make sure they do not.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lostapathy on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:55AM (#33895797)
I'm not surrendering "part of my terrace" to wasps - I'm talking about the rest of my family being unwilling to open the back door because there are always wasps flying near it. I'm not willing to surrender my back door to wasps for a year in hopes they find new flight patterns next year.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by winReInstall on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:28AM (#33893180)
Nonsense, hornets eat yellow jackets as snacks.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nils-m-holm on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:30AM (#33894104)
Larger wasps prey on smaller wasps, but they can still coexist in close proximity. They do not spend the entire day with hunting.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by winReInstall on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:24AM (#33896250)
It depends on the dietary needs of the hive, but beneath the pear tree of my fathers farm, they most definitly did. Swoop, crack open, slurp. Was a evening background noise..
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by yafbum on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:14AM (#33895243)
When eating outdoor in the summer requires you to swat away the same wasps from your plate over and over again, it's definitely annoying. I was stung as a kid for no reason, it was a pain for me and my parents to deal with. My wife and kid were stung also by wasps they could not see.

We get rid of termites and insects by fumigating entire buildings. I don't see anything wrong with doing that to wasps as well. After all, in all likelihood, wasps will vastly outlive the human species...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by throwaway85858 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:03AM (#33893002)
This is not true.

"in the last 5 years in NordRhein-Westfalen only once was someone fined 45 euros for destroying a wasps nest" https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2018/07/24/nein-wer-eine-e...

The fines for thousands of euros are the maximum possible fines, which massively differs to how fines are handed out in practice.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by mustyoshi on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @08:33AM (#33894128)
So they have a law on the books that isn't really enforced?

That's almost worse imo.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by wlll on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:19AM (#33895313)
It was though, a fine was levied. There's flexibility in the punishments that are dished out in a lot of justice systems and I suspect it's to take into account that the law is not really nuanced. It's hard to write down /all/ possible motives, reasons or contexts in which a law or rule has been broken, and allowing the punishment to be scaled based on judgement seems like a reasonable thing to allow. I guess that's what judges are for.

Of course this raises questions around who is making these judgements, and there's sometimes unfairness in how they are applied (eg. police in the US, broken tail lights and the colour of skin of the person stopped), but it doesn't mean that the underlying goal isn't sound, just the implementation.

Personally I've had experience of this. My car tax (UK) lapsed and I didn't renew it. An oversight during a busy time of my life (moving house), and one that I noticed and fixed independently once I noticed, it must have been after a month or two.

However, during the period when my car wasn't taxed the police noticed and reported it (to the authorities, not to me) who issued a fine (~£90) that was sent to me by post. Unfortunately though I'd told the authorities that I'd moved house, twice, they sent the fine and all followup correspondence to my old address and I ended up with a choice, pay debt collectors (they managed to find my new house /just fine/) for the now increased fine + expenses (in the region of ~£800) or go to court. Worst case either way was I'd have to pay the increased amount.

I went to court and the three justices deliberated my case (I could hear them) and though they decided that I could afford the increased amount, it wouldn't be in anyone's interest to levy it as the circumstances in which this happened mitigated my lack of attention to the increasing fines. I wasn't a deliberate law breaker and ultimately a large fine wasn't going to change my on consideration generally good behaviour, and they made me pay the original ~£90 rather than the substantially increased amount.

As the saying goes, the law is an ass.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by JPLeRouzic on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:19AM (#33895320)
In France there are a lot of new laws every year (~100) but at least on third of them will not be enforced, mostly because there is no budget to implement them, or it is political gesticulation to please some electors [0].

For example over the year 2009/2010, 59 laws, which provided for 670 implementing decrees, were promulgated.

According to a Senate report, as of September 30, 2010, only 3 laws had received all of their implementing decrees. And only 20% of these decrees had seen the light of day. However, a law without an implementing decree is useless: it is not applicable.

[0] https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/parlement/faute-de-decret-d-...

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by donatj on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:34AM (#33894730)
Most laws are poorly enforced and only get invoked when you have otherwise pissed the right person off and they’re looking for something to get you on.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hnbad on Friday December 09, 2022 @03:20AM (#33918941)
So what I said is true. "Up to" does not say anything about the typical amount.

Your fact check article is also only partially relevant as it addresses the sensationalist claim that these fines apply to killing a wasp but the conversation was about a wasps nest.

The article also states that these maximum fines exist but that even the very low fines that have been handed out only happen very rarely. In other words: the laws exist but they're applied so rarely as to be effectively meaningless (which is true not just for wasps but for animal cruelty in general). That doesn't disagree with what I said though.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by romanovcode on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:32AM (#33891324)
Why are wasps protected in Germany? I understand bees, but what good are wasps for?
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by biztos on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:35AM (#33891667)
Without the wasps crawling into the sugar dispensers at every single outdoor café in Germany all summer long, people would eat the sugar and create a diabetes epidemic.

At least that was my impression in Berlin; wasps got all the sugar, Berliners stayed pretty thin for the most part.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by JakobH on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:57AM (#33919573)
Sounds like i need more wasps in my house!
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by type0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:25PM (#33899758)
Ah, this explains the bitterness of Berliners
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by constGard on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:01AM (#33891498)
I'll add my own annecdote to this article. We had a wasp nest under the eaves of the house and I managed to successfully move them into a little hutch I built near the garden. I can't say I directly observed them saving the tomatoes, but we did have fewer tomato hornworms than in previous years.

They were also really docile and tolerated a good deal of me fumbling around with the nest. I waited until it was cold out and covered up pretty thouroghly, but they were mostly content to let me flop them around with a set of long BBQ tongs.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by KMnO4 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:55AM (#33891803)
Despite their aggression and desire for sugar, wasps are useful and important pollinators the same way that bees are.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by type0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:27PM (#33899783)
They also annihilate the bees which are much better pollinators
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by nibbleshifter on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:08AM (#33891537)
Germany has some very silly laws.

The wasp protection one gets broken all the time for obvious reasons.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by linmob on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:42AM (#33891390)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by hoseja on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:49AM (#33891756)
I've come around on wasps. They just do their thing. You got stung? Don't tread on them.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by yetihehe on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:24AM (#33891972)
Sometimes wasps have other ideas about "treading on them" like "You are near and made a sudden move, you are threat". It gets worse when you are allergic to wasps. I've worked near a place where transport company cleaned their syrup and milk carrying trailers, so we sometimes had a lot of wasps and one of coworkers had to constantly have adrenaline with him. If he got stung and couldn't do it himself, we were trained on how to jab him and call ambulance.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by InitialLastName on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:32AM (#33895498)
> one of coworkers had to constantly have adrenaline with him. If he got stung and couldn't do it himself, we were trained on how to jab him and call ambulance.

FWIW, this bit is true of everyone I've known who was aware of an anaphylactic allergy, independent of their likelihood of exposure to the allergen. "Carry an EpiPen, know how to use it, make sure some of the people around you are aware of your allergy and know how to handle a reaction" is a very light-weight and reliable solution to "something relatively common could easily kill me".

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jstrong on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:27AM (#33891296)
sounds more like a repugnant fact to me
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by throw827474737 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:06AM (#33891527)
Very ignorant! One can avoid wasps initially, or also later move them more peacefully. They are very important pollinators (we lack more&more) and even have more cool duties. Not sure about your wasps over there, the annoyance factor of the wasps in Germany is usually heavily overdramatized and human arrogance at its best.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by aidenn0 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:21AM (#33891599)
In the US, it's yellowjackets (vespinae, minus the hornets) that are rather annoying. They are attracted to sugar and meat, and sting rather aggressively, which makes outdoor barbecues unpleasant (to put it mildly); paper-wasps (Polistinae) are indeed rather easy to live alongside, but they look quite similar so inherit the bad-rap that yellowjackets have.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by distances on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:14AM (#33892687)
The Central European wasp is a yellowjacket, Vespula germanica. It is very attracted to sweets and foods especially in the autumn. However, it does not usually sting unless there's a reason, such as you're trying to sit on it.

I myself have had zero stings of any bee or wasp in my life so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate. Some people are absolutely terrified about them though so "just let them be" rarely seems to be good advice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespula_germanica

Edit: actually I don't know which one is more common, Vespula germanica or Vespula vulgaris. I wouldn't be able to differentiate between them.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by ambicapter on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:13AM (#33893449)
> I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate

In my experience your hand is a minor annoyance that they'll fly around and continue eating. Only way to have peace is to lay traps around your eating area.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by dmix on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @06:11AM (#33893059)
> so I prefer to gently coax them away from my plate

I’ve found wasps extremely persistent and confident in ways most insects never are.

It’s one thing to gentle swat them but when they come back for 5-10min straight it's understandable why people don't like them.

I also got bit on the mouth as a child when I drank a can of coke that had a wasp inside so I'm not exactly unbiased.

Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by deelowe on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:33AM (#33893600)
Where I live paper wasps are aggressive and multiply quite rapidly. We went from one next to dozens in just a couple of years. I probably get stung at least once a year.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by jstrong on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:18AM (#33891587)
"yeah, what did wasps ever do to you?" attack the shit out of me for no good reason!
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by amalcon on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @07:34AM (#33893605)
Avoid your own house or yard? Annoyance? Tell that to my wife, my brother in law, my uncle, my cousin, or my good friend. They all could literally die if stung, and have all been to the hospital at least once after a sting.
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by lm28469 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @04:52AM (#33892513)
Average human in the middle of a massive, probably partially man made, extinction: "lmao I don't like them let's kill them"
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by m463 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:54PM (#33898515)
in comparison, when I bought a live-catch mousetrap recently, the guy at the store said it was illegal to release the mouse in the county. (implying you should buy the catch-and-kill trap variety)
Re:Caterpillar offers phone with built-in FLIR camera by petre on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:31AM (#33891318)
I suppose it's legal to pack it and ship it to the Bundestag or whichever authority came up with that law then.